The strategy for Starmer seems to be that if he plays a cautious straight bat he’ll win. Just at a time when the country needs fresh thinking and inspiration. He might be right, but the public thirst for more.
I agree but I think all Labour strategy is affected by a hard right press which will give the Tories a free pass on any imcompetence and malfeasance but attack Labour at every opportunity.
Agree all 4 countries in the UK need fresh thinking but yet the English will vote in another greedy Tory government and the rest of us will have to lump it.
fresh thinking and inspiration really isn't what we need from our politicians. we need sound economics, stop inflating our wages away to pay for covid - raise taxes on the wealthy/banks/hedge funds etc and return value back to the £. that's how we get out of this mess and restore economic prosperity for everyone. a period of deflation is needed more than anything.. this will only cause an on paper recession but we'll all feel better off.
Starmer knows (or believes) that under the current electoral and media system, he has to pander to the centre-right, whilst also keeping quiet about electoral reform and Brexit. The problem is, his party and the electorate remain split on these issues and even though pursuing more radical policies in both areas would benefit not just the country, but also the Labour party, he may have chosen to keep quiet about them for strategic reasons. It's possible that in 1-2 years time, if there hasn't been a general election by that point, the mood in the country might have changed and Starmer, backed up by internal polling data, could consider openly backing a re-entry into the EU or at least the single market and fully support electoral reform. We're already seeing some indications that this might be the case. However, right now, my guess is that he's looking at the data and concluding that it's not in his immediate strategic interest to do so. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election and throw the Tories out, so that they are then in a position to introduce the electoral and economic reforms that are necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
What the public thinks it wants isn't always the right thing. Politicians should lead by listening: it's like following public opinion but whilst *also* taking proper expert opinion. Where the two differ, explain and defend why you're taking the expert course. In this case what the country *needs* is a sensible, trust restoring course correction that helps us get the foundations in the tackle the next 30 years of absolute pain humanity has in front of it, thanks to the last 20 years of geo-instability. Unfortunately going into Iraq without UN backing threw gasoline on a fire that was only just starting and we're still putting it out.
With so much humility, such dep insight about the issues (electoral reform, economy, social justice etc.), clear speaking ability, Mr. Stewart would be a better PM. Please say that I'm wrong.
I do hope Keir Starmer is our future Prime Minister. He has integrity and unlike the current batch of Tories is law abiding. The only way to get a more respectable Tory bench is to send them to the wilderness to have a long hard think. And it wouldn't hurt if it was a Lib-Lab coalition either...
I am from the future and Starmer is PM but there isn't a Lab/Lib government as he got a landslide of his own even it was done by tactical voting. It is early days but he is okish so far...
I would rather stick needles in my eyes than ever vote conservative, because I believe that their values are fundamentally and morally wrong, but I agree with everything that Rory Stewart had to say, particularly regarding proportional representation and I find it quite shocking that Keir Starmer, who is trying to reposition the Labour movement as the party of change, of forward thinking, continues to defend this embarrassing 17th century anachronism of first past the post, a system that is basically no longer fit for purpose. It was Kier himself who said “country first”, and yet he refuses to entertain the thought that the system needs a radical overhaul, and continues to put his faith in this eternal wait for a better class of politician, and as such he is not offering a solution, because he is actually just another part of the problem, but he’s too blinkered to see it. There is nothing fairer than PR, and until it’s introduced I, just as many others, will not be voting, because it really is a complete waste of time, especially when the politicians themselves don’t have the courage of their own convictions.
If you don't vote the Tories will win again. Thats the problem. You are choosing to go against Labour because of PR and therefore allowing a Tory government to perpetuate
@@catherinemccarron5796 -Sorry, but no, that is to reinterpret what I wrote, because I am not choosing to go against labour, in fact no-where did I even mention that I am a socialist, this is just something you have assumed to criticise me about, because I will be giving my vote to ANY party that does support PR, because I believe it’s at the root of all that is wrong with British politics, and that it’s of such paramount importance that something is done about it, fast. Because until it is, the two party system will remain, and this petty squabbling will just go on ad-infinitum, and politicians of all colours will remain dishonest, about anything and everything as long as it suits their purpose, which is usually just about remaining in power and often to the blatant detriment of the country they were elected to govern.
20:45 this is the main point in British politics that absolutely broken. Coalitions and teamwork are the answer to mostly everything. Here in the Netherlands, proportional representation helps to create a varied government with varying opinions that ⚡WORK TOGETHER ⚡ making a fairer and much better society. Keir says he wants to end division in politics, but when it's us vs them then division is inevitable. Keir absolutely dodges the question
While listening to Mr. Starmer, I have the sense that he has a sound argument about economy and brexit. However it seems to me that he is not able to produce soundbites and without soundbites you can't attract attention nowdays. With all respect, I think he badly needs a director for communication and strategy.
Fully agree on all points - especially the last point. Rory gets it - politics has changed and unless Starmer changes his messaging he is going to be less effective than may be required.
I really do hope to see Starmer as PM. Social media has done so much to amplify the most entertaining or controversial opinions to the point that people are gravitating towards extreme left or extreme right positions. It's time a pragmatic social democrat took charge. It might not be 'sexy' politics, but the ability to get something done is far more important than how idealistic it may seem.
They have to do well considering how bad the tories are but honestly he’s not really answered how he would grow the economy. He uses empty plaintiffs and examples to deflect from questions around interest rates.etc
I am so tired of hearing politicians talk about people need to get high paid high skilled jobs. Imagine a world without cleaners, refuse collectors, trades people, shop workers etc. We need politicians to value all jobs and ensure decent wages for all.
I'd like to see Keir elevate Rory to the Lords in order to run a department where he was suitably experienced. I'm sure some form of modified ministerial responsibility could be agreed to accommodate him. Would be good to see a few talented politicians from other parties in ministerial posts, Mhairi Black comes to mind.
We need something radical to fix the UK and Keir is not offering that. I'm disappointed because he's a smart guy but I want much bolder policies. If he really means country before party then he'd be offering a policy for PR as one of the first things he would do if elected to govern. The country is crying out for it.
Starmer means well, but he is being way, way too cautious on Brexit and electoral reform. Depressing! He doesn't get it; the whole system is so out of date. You wouldn't run a business with 1850s systems, so how on Earth can Starmer justify running the entire country like that? Does Britain really have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century? Get a bit of courage, please, Starmer!
What we can hope here is that he's thinking these thoughts in private, because even though the labour party would probably win fewer seats under PR, the likelihood they'd be able to govern, albeit in a coalition or by confidence and supply agreement is much much greater than under FPTP, so as the pragmatic man that he is, PR will be in his interest. I just think (and hope) that Starmer reckons openly backing electoral reform and a Lab-Lib electoral coalition at this point in time could lead to more internal division in the Labour party, since there are those who don't want to compromise and would rather spend endless time in opposition. He also knows that the right-wing media would pounce immediately on electoral reform and claim that it was a way to rig future elections. I'm not sure that they would succeed, given how tired the public are of the status quo, but fear campaigns can and do unfortunately work. So my hope is that there are many things (including on Brexit and PR) that he thinks in private, but for strategic reasons, is not saying out loud. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election, so that they can introduce the electoral and economic reforms necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
Starmer is being sensible. He's presenting himself as a candidate not looking to make drastic changes. Otherwise right-wing press will devour him. Once in power he can make the case for change. It's about being strategic smart.
So disappointing that he didn't hear the warnings from Rory and Alistair and that he believes "politics isn't broken". I didn't hear anything that inspired me or made me believe that Labour can lead us into the world we're moving into.
I think he's being deliberately cautious - doesn't want to come across as anti-establishment in fears that it would scare away more "traditional" minded voters who might be spooked by a candidate promising to reform the constitution. I do agree with you, I think we need a candidate who is bold and willing to say "shit is broken, we need to fix it"
How can you rebuild an economy without having free flowing traffic free trade with our nearest neighbours, that also happen to be some of the richest markets in the world? The UK will stop existing if we don't rejoin the single market and customs union. Labour will become the party that broke up the union, giving the cons power for the next 20 years
The way this new New Labour lot completely disregard the Corbyn years really annoys me. In 2017 Corbyn lost the election by 2.3% of the vote, despite having most of the media and his own parliamentary party against him. It was, in hindsight a massive success. He lost the 2019 snap election so catastrophically because of people like Starmer and Campbell who thought they could re-run the Brexit vote. Corbyn was between a rock and a hard place and was destined to lose as the traditional Labour vote was split over Brexit. Corbyn was far from perfect, but at least he and MacDonald had some actual policies and a vision for the country. The only hope Labour have of winning the next election is to give the whip back to Corbyn, honour at least some of the pledges Starmer made to the Labour left when he was elected leader, and change their stance on Scottish Independence. Three things they will never do under Starmer.
The other problem is that Kier initially seemed keen on adopting the better parts of Corbyn's policy platforms, but shortly after his election he then seemed determined to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's infuriating that he won't even commit to something as basic as renationalising rail - a policy that's extremely popular.
Safe to say confidence in Labour is restored, my Twitter is suspended (promise I wasn’t behaving too badly 😅) but I think more people should be sharing this
It's depressing hearing Keir completely dodge the question around structural reform and particularly voting reform. In general he seems like the exact sort of politician that drove people toward populist leaders in the first place: deeply insincere, impossible to pin down to any particular position, and utterly married to the consensus. The proposal to simply revive Tony Blair's Labour is damning for the sheer lack of ideas in modern British politics.
Starmer is trying to lose. He announces "no rejoin EU forever" just as the public is getting really sick of Brexit and the Tories are in a mess. Nice one Keir, you are almost as good as your buddy Corbyn at enabling Brexit and losing.
I think we will rejoin the EU, but in a lot of seats I genuinely think if we announce we’re going to rejoin the EU straight away labour will lose a lot of it’s ability to win, I think he’s being clever with his politics on this issue, then in the election after the next it will be much more feasible to put ourselves back on the path to rejoining the EU
It's really not as easy as just saying we'll rejoin. Not the actual process of our nation rejoining, but the people voting for that. And if you think for one second it would be a landslide and we'd sail through that vote, I encourage you to look at next to every poll that was going on ahead of the Brexit vote. There's a LOT of animosity towards the EU in the UK and I think that's deep rooted and will not just go with time. I suspect if such a conversation starts again regarding us rejoining, it would be incredibly easy for those with an anti-EU / rejoining agenda to push a narrative that says "the Union hasn't changed, we'd be the whipped dog crawling back into a wet dog kennel for scraps and that it's the same people pushing the notion we should rejoin who said we shouldn't leave. If we didn't believe them then, we won't now." Etc.
@@combatwombat2134 i agree that’s why can’t have that debate right now and it’s one for a future time when the UK is hopefully in a much stronger position
Starmer knows that under the current electoral and media system, he has to pander to the centre-right, whilst also keeping quiet about electoral reform and Brexit. The problem is, his party and the electorate remain split on these issues and even though pursuing more radical policies in both areas would benefit not just the country, but also the Labour party, he may have chosen to keep quiet about them for strategic reasons. It's possible that in 1-2 years time, if there hasn't been a general election by that point, the mood in the country might have changed and Starmer, backed up by internal polling data, could consider openly backing a re-entry into the EU or at least the single market and fully support electoral reform. However, right now, my guess is that he's looking at the data and concluding that it's not in his immediate strategic interest to do so. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election and throw the Tories out, so that they are then in a position to introduce the electoral and economic reforms that are necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
Starmer is completely and utterly devoid of anything sensible or believable in terms of economic policy. You can sense the desperation and panic in his voice when questioned on this subject.
I really think his stance on Brexit is going to affect Labour. Surely since the Conservative party is committed to Brexit, Labour should go for the rejoin the EU option to get those voters on board, because those people won't be voting Tory.
@@badgertheskinnycow Completely disagree. They voted after the referendum to get Brexit done. Now that it's done, I bet many of those same voters didn't get what they voted for.
I disagree with Rory's economic outlook. Inflation at the moment is being pushed up by oil, which has a compounding impact on food but also all other goods. Slight interest rates increases will push down demand for goods, and as seen recently, commodities have started to fall. Perhaps we will dip into a slight recession, but the fact most commodities are down 30% already, I believe we have hit peak inflation.
Also don't forget property. Both the price of homes is hyperinflated along with rent costs. Even if you don't run a car, you still need a roof over your head, and a huge proportion of people's incomes are tied up in either mortgage or rent repayments. Also those interest rate hikes are going to eventually hit everyone's mortgages which when combined with other cost of living increases is gonna cause a ton of people, primarily of working age, to have their homes repossessed.
The largest feed into inflation is profiteering following the various lock downs. I think when governments start threatening investigations this eill ease off. We also have more competent central banks than in the 1970s for example, so I don't see inflation being a massive problem in the middle term - time will tell though.
The main factor in avoiding inflation over the last couple of decades has been the capacity of China to produce plentiful cheap goods. That is changing. Not only are the Chinese people looking to improve their living standards, but their economy is in a very dangerous position. Evergrande has not gone away, it will seriously impact not just China but the rest of the world.
Rory is right, not just better politicians, but radical change to the political system. I doubt that Starmer is capable or at least willing to embrace that.
I actually think if enough people heard this podcast, Labour would have a much stronger chance of securing an election, loads of people really don’t trust Starmer and the longer we wait for a GE, the more people will start aligning with other Parties
I’ve been hating on Keir until now, I think his PR is pretty lacking but maybe someone a Labour MP who’s intelligent enough to make it as a barrister deserves some credit 😅
I'm a life long Labour voter - so don't agree with Boris Johnson about much - but I do when he described Starmer as a 'pointless plastic bollard'! Starmer seems stuck in the 2Oth century - his middling politics isn't energised or pragmatic centrism, it's lame 'everyman' stuff that is indistinguishable from nothingness. I'm still weighing up whether I can endorse a Labour party which doesn't support political reform. It's obvious that the progressive vote is split. More significantly, without political reform, we are trapped in short-termism - constrained by binary politics and the brevity of the election cycle. Meanwhile, the enormous and frightening challenges of the future go completely unaddressed. It's's not enough, really.
Starmer knows that under the current electoral and media system, he has to pander to the centre-right, whilst also keeping quiet about electoral reform and Brexit. The problem is, his party and the electorate remain split on these issues and even though pursuing more radical policies in both areas would benefit not just the country, but also the Labour party, he may have chosen to keep quiet about them for strategic reasons. It's possible that in 1-2 years time, if there hasn't been a general election by that point, the mood in the country might have changed and Starmer, backed up by internal polling data, could consider openly backing a re-entry into the EU or at least the single market and fully support electoral reform. However, right now, my guess is that he's looking at the data and concluding that it's not in his immediate strategic interest to do so. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election and throw the Tories out, so that they are then in a position to introduce the electoral and economic reforms that are necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
Just listened to this and was ready to just rubbish Starmer. I have. Hanged my position and I now want to vote for Rory Stewart and have gone from “Keir is generally ok,” to, “fuck Starmer, he’s more of the same and why the hell should he have my vote??!” And, in addition, no one is more surprised than me at that reaction. Labour Party, please take note.
I do like Keir and when he is performing well at say PMQs he is excellent, but when Labour get back in power he needs to make more radical changes. At the moment it seems he is just fiddling around the edges of what has happened for the past 12 years.
Did anyone spot a policy that betters anything the Tories did in any major portfolio? Did anyone spot the criticism of those who propped Boris up alongside the avoidance of Starmer's support for Corbyn? Starmer: *_"There are things we can do about it (inflation running away) as long as we make the right decisions."_* Wow. That's a winning campaign slogan if ever I saw one, Kier. And Campbell shoots both feet off again. *_"The Daily Mail showed over the Durham thing just how venal and evil they can be..."_* Interesting. _'I'll give you the keys if you support me on Iraq, Gordon,'_ David Kelly, and _'45 minutes'_ come to mind, for some strange reason!
He offered the windfall tax policy long before the Tories actually used it. Used it, with great reluctance. This was a real world policy that actually benefited people on the lowest incomes. Take that policy to the national stage if Labour gets into government. We are better off.
In this thoughtful interview with the LP leader, Brexit stands out as Starmer's Achilles' Heel. Starmer is right: Brexit continues to be toxic and divisive. Having left, the next PM will indeed have to govern with the current thin trade deal with the EU worsening the UK's trade position. The first order of business, he rightly says, will be to detoxify EU relations and reduce trade barriers for the sake of Northern Ireland. However, even after such improvements, the thin EU deal will continue to work against the UK's economic and political interests. Starmer is thus forced to start his premiership, if he gets it, against even stronger headwinds than other economies. By not acknowledging this, he will remain ensnared in the web of lies woven by the Leave campaigns and the recent incumbents in high office. At some point, a future government will have to tell the truth of the full extent of the harm the Cons' Real Existing Brexit is causing (not limited to the economy), and start to remedy it by setting out a vision of much closer UK/EU relations, whatever form they may take. (Personally, I don't think A49 accession to the EU will happen in my lifetime.) Starmer would do better to acknowledge that his job is to make Brexit s*ck less in the short term, and that the road beyond that is as yet unclear, but on patriotic grounds refuse to close the door to more fundamental improvements. He could also promise internal reforms (changes to the electoral system, a more pluralistic media landscape, restoration of civil and human rights, ending the plight of boat people, restoring climate change to the agenda) and inquiries (on disinformation, kleptocracy, Brexit and COVID failings) to transform the UK's political landscape, putting the UK onto a better footing to engage rationally with its future prospects (and not coincidentally with the EU).
Best performance from Keir Starmer I’ve yet heard. Keep up this standard. Also keep reforming Labour Party which recently has been severely damaged by left wingers without principles set upon trashing decent centrist members in pursuit of unprincipled agendas.
In the kindest way why do you believe this. I’ll vote for him regardless but he truly hasn’t outlined any concrete plans on how he will do the things he’s aiming for like bringing the economy forward
Aaah, almost make me think hes not a wet blanket (no offence Keir) but still cant help but think we'd do better with Angela. Tories cant really argue with a stocky lass literally raised via suretstart and new labour social policies. She's a literal product of all the best elements of New labour and shows the current generation what we've lost under 12 years of tories.
After Starmers’ lack of appropriate condemnation of all the horrors in Gaza….he has lost my vote. The Tories are terrible, and he has lost my vote. I don’t trust his values. What a world we have let develop😢
Rory I think you ask too much of KS when you put it to him that our electoral system needs restructuring. PR means the diminution of power of the Labour Party (and regardless of KS's claimed aspiration to the contrary, let's be clear that of course for party members the party comes first). I was a central government civil servant for 25 years and watched an endless succession of ministers come and go, every one of them without exception morphing into their predecessor within weeks of arrival in post, regardless of their politics or pre-appointment rhetoric. There has to be a change.
Indeed and it also puts him in a bit of a pickle. What we can hope here is that he's thinking these thoughts in private, because even though the labour party would probably win fewer seats under PR, the likelihood they'd be able to govern, albeit in a coalition or by confidence and supply agreement is much much greater than under FPTP, so as the pragmatic man that he is, PR will be in his interest. I just think (and hope) that KS reckons openly backing electoral reform and a Lab-Lib electoral coalition could lead to more internal division in the Labour party, since there are those who don't want to compromise and would rather spend endless time in opposition. He also knows that the right-wing media would pounce on electoral reform and claim it was a way to rig elections. I'm not sure that they would succeed, but fear campaigns can and do unfortunately work. So my hope is that there are many things (including on Brexit and PR) that he thinks in private, but for strategic reasons, is not saying out loud.
Very informative and enjoyable except a huge disappointment with Starmer opposing PR voting, which he used to support. Labour's old guard have got to him, putting Labour exceptionalism over the needs of people and the country and leaving the UK to 3/4 ruled in monopoly power by largely incompetent Tory governments who have never achieved 50% of the vote in seventy odd years and achieved average growth levels lower than. Labour's.
I zoned out listening to Keir Starmer. It's just political waffle. "Let's invest in renewable energy to kickstart the economy." OK? Is that your flagship policy? How many jobs will that bring in? What is the value of the market? How will we invest in green technology here at home? Pretty easy to say "we will invest in green technology", because every politician does it. "What are you going to do about Scotland?" "We have to look forward. We have to make an exciting argument about the future of Scotland." THEN DO IT. LET'S HEAR IT. You need to break the SNP's hold on Scotland and that's your best answer? After BJ Scotland is pretty intent on a new referendum, why do they want to vote for someone who won't give it to them? God it's so useless listening to this man, there's no policy, just waffle.
Very impressed by Starmer I think he's a natural statesman and will be good for the country. But I am very disappointed by his dismissal of both Electoral reform and the all-consuming elephant in the room that is brexit. I think he's being disingenuous on both counts and can only hope he's playing it safe until election time because making brexit work is an oxymoron.
You got that one right but the Tories were very poor and was very negative. Think that Starmer is probably the LUCKIEST person in the UK as probably have a 2 term as PM as the Tories will probably split which haven't yet happened as time of writing but it is coming.
How odd. My post at 4am this morning - addressed to Starmer's team and qualifying my support - has been deleted. Looks like my comment on puritanical and intolerant ID pol has just been proved right. One (red wall) vote now lost....
KS is a well intentioned and basically frank man but he lacks something that will make him stand out. He is boring for a start, though his jokes at PMQ are getting better. Also too cautious and this is reflected in the Labour Party. His one big idea is that Labour is now better and more electable than the Tories because he has disciplined the left and the Tories are in disarray. Not much of a platform to stand on and to inspire a wonderful future for the UK. He is, to be fair, working within the limitations of a country whose media and many people are instinctively hostile to Labour and the left more broadly. Labour need to get the Tories out but I'm not sure they can do it without some sort of understanding with the other parties. Also the likely outcome is Labour having the largest number of MPs but no overall majority and so will have to rely on some sort of deal with the other parties.
The more I listen to you chaps the more I believe we need a coalition of people willing to put the country first and politics second.
Ety Eeeijv HR u ûvuu you hugmen beme free my h I uv hi
The relief when Starmer used the word 'bullshitter' in public about de-Pfeffel-Johnson was palpable.
He's so brave! 😂
The strategy for Starmer seems to be that if he plays a cautious straight bat he’ll win. Just at a time when the country needs fresh thinking and inspiration. He might be right, but the public thirst for more.
I agree but I think all Labour strategy is affected by a hard right press which will give the Tories a free pass on any imcompetence and malfeasance but attack Labour at every opportunity.
Agree all 4 countries in the UK need fresh thinking but yet the English will vote in another greedy Tory government and the rest of us will have to lump it.
fresh thinking and inspiration really isn't what we need from our politicians. we need sound economics, stop inflating our wages away to pay for covid - raise taxes on the wealthy/banks/hedge funds etc and return value back to the £. that's how we get out of this mess and restore economic prosperity for everyone. a period of deflation is needed more than anything.. this will only cause an on paper recession but we'll all feel better off.
Starmer knows (or believes) that under the current electoral and media system, he has to pander to the centre-right, whilst also keeping quiet about electoral reform and Brexit. The problem is, his party and the electorate remain split on these issues and even though pursuing more radical policies in both areas would benefit not just the country, but also the Labour party, he may have chosen to keep quiet about them for strategic reasons. It's possible that in 1-2 years time, if there hasn't been a general election by that point, the mood in the country might have changed and Starmer, backed up by internal polling data, could consider openly backing a re-entry into the EU or at least the single market and fully support electoral reform. We're already seeing some indications that this might be the case. However, right now, my guess is that he's looking at the data and concluding that it's not in his immediate strategic interest to do so. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election and throw the Tories out, so that they are then in a position to introduce the electoral and economic reforms that are necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
What the public thinks it wants isn't always the right thing. Politicians should lead by listening: it's like following public opinion but whilst *also* taking proper expert opinion. Where the two differ, explain and defend why you're taking the expert course.
In this case what the country *needs* is a sensible, trust restoring course correction that helps us get the foundations in the tackle the next 30 years of absolute pain humanity has in front of it, thanks to the last 20 years of geo-instability. Unfortunately going into Iraq without UN backing threw gasoline on a fire that was only just starting and we're still putting it out.
This was one of the best political discussions I have heard in a long time. Thank you for doing it.
With so much humility, such dep insight about the issues (electoral reform, economy, social justice etc.), clear speaking ability, Mr. Stewart would be a better PM. Please say that I'm wrong.
I like Rory for a Tory but he’s still economically further right than what I’d be a fan of
A lovely & Fabulous 2nd guest...
Thank you very much for this.
Always a really good idea to hear what Keir Starmer has to say..x🙂
I do hope Keir Starmer is our future Prime Minister. He has integrity and unlike the current batch of Tories is law abiding.
The only way to get a more respectable Tory bench is to send them to the wilderness to have a long hard think.
And it wouldn't hurt if it was a Lib-Lab coalition either...
Integrity? He's just as bad as Johnson, will lie and say whatever it takes to get power. My sock is more principled than Keir Starmer.
Lied about all his leadership pledges, but he’s got integrity 🤣
Facilitating the illegal detention of Julian Assange is perhaps legal. I find it so morally repugnant that I could never vote for this guy.
I am from the future and Starmer is PM but there isn't a Lab/Lib government as he got a landslide of his own even it was done by tactical voting. It is early days but he is okish so far...
Oh okay, respect to Keir calling BJ a bullshitter
I would rather stick needles in my eyes than ever vote conservative, because I believe that their values are fundamentally and morally wrong, but I agree with everything that Rory Stewart had to say, particularly regarding proportional representation and I find it quite shocking that Keir Starmer, who is trying to reposition the Labour movement as the party of change, of forward thinking, continues to defend this embarrassing 17th century anachronism of first past the post, a system that is basically no longer fit for purpose.
It was Kier himself who said “country first”, and yet he refuses to entertain the thought that the system needs a radical overhaul, and continues to put his faith in this eternal wait for a better class of politician, and as such he is not offering a solution, because he is actually just another part of the problem, but he’s too blinkered to see it.
There is nothing fairer than PR, and until it’s introduced I, just as many others, will not be voting, because it really is a complete waste of time, especially when the politicians themselves don’t have the courage of their own convictions.
If you don't vote the Tories will win again. Thats the problem. You are choosing to go against Labour because of PR and therefore allowing a Tory government to perpetuate
@@catherinemccarron5796 -Sorry, but no, that is to reinterpret what I wrote, because I am not choosing to go against labour, in fact no-where did I even mention that I am a socialist, this is just something you have assumed to criticise me about, because I will be giving my vote to ANY party that does support PR, because I believe it’s at the root of all that is wrong with British politics, and that it’s of such paramount importance that something is done about it, fast.
Because until it is, the two party system will remain, and this petty squabbling will just go on ad-infinitum, and politicians of all colours will remain dishonest, about anything and everything as long as it suits their purpose, which is usually just about remaining in power and often to the blatant detriment of the country they were elected to govern.
20:45 this is the main point in British politics that absolutely broken. Coalitions and teamwork are the answer to mostly everything.
Here in the Netherlands, proportional representation helps to create a varied government with varying opinions that ⚡WORK TOGETHER ⚡ making a fairer and much better society.
Keir says he wants to end division in politics, but when it's us vs them then division is inevitable.
Keir absolutely dodges the question
While listening to Mr. Starmer, I have the sense that he has a sound argument about economy and brexit. However it seems to me that he is not able to produce soundbites and without soundbites you can't attract attention nowdays. With all respect, I think he badly needs a director for communication and strategy.
Fully agree on all points - especially the last point. Rory gets it - politics has changed and unless Starmer changes his messaging he is going to be less effective than may be required.
I really do hope to see Starmer as PM. Social media has done so much to amplify the most entertaining or controversial opinions to the point that people are gravitating towards extreme left or extreme right positions. It's time a pragmatic social democrat took charge. It might not be 'sexy' politics, but the ability to get something done is far more important than how idealistic it may seem.
He's not a social democrat.
Excellent discussion. Really like how Starmer's focus is on growing economy. Come 2024 I think labour will do very well.
They have to do well considering how bad the tories are but honestly he’s not really answered how he would grow the economy. He uses empty plaintiffs and examples to deflect from questions around interest rates.etc
Economic growth! Wow what a great idea! Why didn't anyone think of this before?
@@lutherblissett9070 I’m a labour man but Rory is right and he talks in platitudes
Do you do lotto numbers?
I am so tired of hearing politicians talk about people need to get high paid high skilled jobs. Imagine a world without cleaners, refuse collectors, trades people, shop workers etc. We need politicians to value all jobs and ensure decent wages for all.
It's the class system and it always been the problem , it needs to be broken up , the UK is not a fair society.
I'd like to see Keir elevate Rory to the Lords in order to run a department where he was suitably experienced. I'm sure some form of modified ministerial responsibility could be agreed to accommodate him. Would be good to see a few talented politicians from other parties in ministerial posts, Mhairi Black comes to mind.
We need something radical to fix the UK and Keir is not offering that. I'm disappointed because he's a smart guy but I want much bolder policies. If he really means country before party then he'd be offering a policy for PR as one of the first things he would do if elected to govern. The country is crying out for it.
As a Brit living overseas the reform needed stands out like dog’s balls.
the thing i dislike about Starmer is that when he talks it's like he's talking at you, rather than with you.
Starmer means well, but he is being way, way too cautious on Brexit and electoral reform. Depressing! He doesn't get it; the whole system is so out of date. You wouldn't run a business with 1850s systems, so how on Earth can Starmer justify running the entire country like that? Does Britain really have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century? Get a bit of courage, please, Starmer!
Point. Like listening to a middle manager from 1980. Depressingly vision-free mind
But is that worse than another Tory government? My answer is no.
@@catherinemccarron5796 marginally as the Tories will be back if Labour and the LDs don't sieze the opportunity to put them to the sword!
What we can hope here is that he's thinking these thoughts in private, because even though the labour party would probably win fewer seats under PR, the likelihood they'd be able to govern, albeit in a coalition or by confidence and supply agreement is much much greater than under FPTP, so as the pragmatic man that he is, PR will be in his interest. I just think (and hope) that Starmer reckons openly backing electoral reform and a Lab-Lib electoral coalition at this point in time could lead to more internal division in the Labour party, since there are those who don't want to compromise and would rather spend endless time in opposition. He also knows that the right-wing media would pounce immediately on electoral reform and claim that it was a way to rig future elections. I'm not sure that they would succeed, given how tired the public are of the status quo, but fear campaigns can and do unfortunately work. So my hope is that there are many things (including on Brexit and PR) that he thinks in private, but for strategic reasons, is not saying out loud. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election, so that they can introduce the electoral and economic reforms necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
Starmer is being sensible. He's presenting himself as a candidate not looking to make drastic changes. Otherwise right-wing press will devour him. Once in power he can make the case for change. It's about being strategic smart.
So disappointing that he didn't hear the warnings from Rory and Alistair and that he believes "politics isn't broken".
I didn't hear anything that inspired me or made me believe that Labour can lead us into the world we're moving into.
I think he's being deliberately cautious - doesn't want to come across as anti-establishment in fears that it would scare away more "traditional" minded voters who might be spooked by a candidate promising to reform the constitution. I do agree with you, I think we need a candidate who is bold and willing to say "shit is broken, we need to fix it"
Love how Keirs pushback about how he ran a public service and he saw how decimated it was got Rory to apologise
How can you rebuild an economy without having free flowing traffic free trade with our nearest neighbours, that also happen to be some of the richest markets in the world? The UK will stop existing if we don't rejoin the single market and customs union. Labour will become the party that broke up the union, giving the cons power for the next 20 years
Good interview, ready enjoyed it especially the word bullshiter
The way this new New Labour lot completely disregard the Corbyn years really annoys me. In 2017 Corbyn lost the election by 2.3% of the vote, despite having most of the media and his own parliamentary party against him. It was, in hindsight a massive success. He lost the 2019 snap election so catastrophically because of people like Starmer and Campbell who thought they could re-run the Brexit vote. Corbyn was between a rock and a hard place and was destined to lose as the traditional Labour vote was split over Brexit. Corbyn was far from perfect, but at least he and MacDonald had some actual policies and a vision for the country. The only hope Labour have of winning the next election is to give the whip back to Corbyn, honour at least some of the pledges Starmer made to the Labour left when he was elected leader, and change their stance on Scottish Independence. Three things they will never do under Starmer.
The other problem is that Kier initially seemed keen on adopting the better parts of Corbyn's policy platforms, but shortly after his election he then seemed determined to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's infuriating that he won't even commit to something as basic as renationalising rail - a policy that's extremely popular.
And the Forde report? Novara will love this.
Slogan - "Britain Deserves Better" surely !!!
Safe to say confidence in Labour is restored, my Twitter is suspended (promise I wasn’t behaving too badly 😅) but I think more people should be sharing this
It's depressing hearing Keir completely dodge the question around structural reform and particularly voting reform. In general he seems like the exact sort of politician that drove people toward populist leaders in the first place: deeply insincere, impossible to pin down to any particular position, and utterly married to the consensus. The proposal to simply revive Tony Blair's Labour is damning for the sheer lack of ideas in modern British politics.
Trouble is he's really hard to listen to. You need Angela on!
Not going to end private profit being taken from public money, then...
Starmer is trying to lose.
He announces "no rejoin EU forever" just as the public is getting really sick of Brexit and the Tories are in a mess.
Nice one Keir, you are almost as good as your buddy Corbyn at enabling Brexit and losing.
I think we will rejoin the EU, but in a lot of seats I genuinely think if we announce we’re going to rejoin the EU straight away labour will lose a lot of it’s ability to win, I think he’s being clever with his politics on this issue, then in the election after the next it will be much more feasible to put ourselves back on the path to rejoining the EU
It's really not as easy as just saying we'll rejoin.
Not the actual process of our nation rejoining, but the people voting for that.
And if you think for one second it would be a landslide and we'd sail through that vote, I encourage you to look at next to every poll that was going on ahead of the Brexit vote.
There's a LOT of animosity towards the EU in the UK and I think that's deep rooted and will not just go with time.
I suspect if such a conversation starts again regarding us rejoining, it would be incredibly easy for those with an anti-EU / rejoining agenda to push a narrative that says "the Union hasn't changed, we'd be the whipped dog crawling back into a wet dog kennel for scraps and that it's the same people pushing the notion we should rejoin who said we shouldn't leave. If we didn't believe them then, we won't now." Etc.
@@combatwombat2134 i agree that’s why can’t have that debate right now and it’s one for a future time when the UK is hopefully in a much stronger position
Starmer knows that under the current electoral and media system, he has to pander to the centre-right, whilst also keeping quiet about electoral reform and Brexit. The problem is, his party and the electorate remain split on these issues and even though pursuing more radical policies in both areas would benefit not just the country, but also the Labour party, he may have chosen to keep quiet about them for strategic reasons. It's possible that in 1-2 years time, if there hasn't been a general election by that point, the mood in the country might have changed and Starmer, backed up by internal polling data, could consider openly backing a re-entry into the EU or at least the single market and fully support electoral reform. However, right now, my guess is that he's looking at the data and concluding that it's not in his immediate strategic interest to do so. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election and throw the Tories out, so that they are then in a position to introduce the electoral and economic reforms that are necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
@@andrewoakeshott7759 TOTALLY WRONG. You need a political party articulating the arguments for EU membership or it will die as a cause.
KS is lost as well. How can he grow the economy with a lack of workforce?
'I've talked to a lot of people'- Keir Starmer.
Starmer is completely and utterly devoid of anything sensible or believable in terms of economic policy. You can sense the desperation and panic in his voice when questioned on this subject.
I really think his stance on Brexit is going to affect Labour. Surely since the Conservative party is committed to Brexit, Labour should go for the rejoin the EU option to get those voters on board, because those people won't be voting Tory.
@@badgertheskinnycow Completely disagree. They voted after the referendum to get Brexit done. Now that it's done, I bet many of those same voters didn't get what they voted for.
I disagree with Rory's economic outlook. Inflation at the moment is being pushed up by oil, which has a compounding impact on food but also all other goods. Slight interest rates increases will push down demand for goods, and as seen recently, commodities have started to fall. Perhaps we will dip into a slight recession, but the fact most commodities are down 30% already, I believe we have hit peak inflation.
Also don't forget property. Both the price of homes is hyperinflated along with rent costs. Even if you don't run a car, you still need a roof over your head, and a huge proportion of people's incomes are tied up in either mortgage or rent repayments. Also those interest rate hikes are going to eventually hit everyone's mortgages which when combined with other cost of living increases is gonna cause a ton of people, primarily of working age, to have their homes repossessed.
The largest feed into inflation is profiteering following the various lock downs. I think when governments start threatening investigations this eill ease off. We also have more competent central banks than in the 1970s for example, so I don't see inflation being a massive problem in the middle term - time will tell though.
The main factor in avoiding inflation over the last couple of decades has been the capacity of China to produce plentiful cheap goods. That is changing. Not only are the Chinese people looking to improve their living standards, but their economy is in a very dangerous position. Evergrande has not gone away, it will seriously impact not just China but the rest of the world.
Some type of deal with the Libdems is highly likely
Rory is right, not just better politicians, but radical change to the political system. I doubt that Starmer is capable or at least willing to embrace that.
OK: PR, second chamber reform, written constitution, regain the trust of Europe, rejoin. That'll do for starters.
I actually think if enough people heard this podcast, Labour would have a much stronger chance of securing an election, loads of people really don’t trust Starmer and the longer we wait for a GE, the more people will start aligning with other Parties
Government in partnership with corporate power?! I wonder where I've heard that phrase before...?
I’ve been hating on Keir until now, I think his PR is pretty lacking but maybe someone a Labour MP who’s intelligent enough to make it as a barrister deserves some credit 😅
Brill. Yet another 'lesser of two evils' vote next election, then.
I'm a life long Labour voter - so don't agree with Boris Johnson about much - but I do when he described Starmer as a 'pointless plastic bollard'!
Starmer seems stuck in the 2Oth century - his middling politics isn't energised or pragmatic centrism, it's lame 'everyman' stuff that is indistinguishable from nothingness.
I'm still weighing up whether I can endorse a Labour party which doesn't support political reform. It's obvious that the progressive vote is split. More significantly, without political reform, we are trapped in short-termism - constrained by binary politics and the brevity of the election cycle. Meanwhile, the enormous and frightening challenges of the future go completely unaddressed. It's's not enough, really.
Starmer knows that under the current electoral and media system, he has to pander to the centre-right, whilst also keeping quiet about electoral reform and Brexit. The problem is, his party and the electorate remain split on these issues and even though pursuing more radical policies in both areas would benefit not just the country, but also the Labour party, he may have chosen to keep quiet about them for strategic reasons. It's possible that in 1-2 years time, if there hasn't been a general election by that point, the mood in the country might have changed and Starmer, backed up by internal polling data, could consider openly backing a re-entry into the EU or at least the single market and fully support electoral reform. However, right now, my guess is that he's looking at the data and concluding that it's not in his immediate strategic interest to do so. Remember, the most important thing is that Labour and the Lib-Dems win the next general election and throw the Tories out, so that they are then in a position to introduce the electoral and economic reforms that are necessary. It's no good talking about big visions when you're stuck in opposition.
Times gave changed. Hoping for a lot from labour. Quite right to keep family out of politics. The right wing won't go away.
6:30 don't ask him for a new pledge card, Alistair, ask him what happened to the pledges he made when he became leader.
Just listened to this and was ready to just rubbish Starmer. I have. Hanged my position and I now want to vote for Rory Stewart and have gone from “Keir is generally ok,” to, “fuck Starmer, he’s more of the same and why the hell should he have my vote??!” And, in addition, no one is more surprised than me at that reaction. Labour Party, please take note.
*changed!!
32:19 classic Rory backing austerity
We need a socialist voice to make this an interesting conversation.
If you don't think the system is broken then perhaps you are part of the problem.
I do like Keir and when he is performing well at say PMQs he is excellent, but when Labour get back in power he needs to make more radical changes. At the moment it seems he is just fiddling around the edges of what has happened for the past 12 years.
Did anyone spot a policy that betters anything the Tories did in any major portfolio?
Did anyone spot the criticism of those who propped Boris up alongside the avoidance of Starmer's support for Corbyn?
Starmer: *_"There are things we can do about it (inflation running away) as long as we make the right decisions."_*
Wow. That's a winning campaign slogan if ever I saw one, Kier.
And Campbell shoots both feet off again. *_"The Daily Mail showed over the Durham thing just how venal and evil they can be..."_*
Interesting.
_'I'll give you the keys if you support me on Iraq, Gordon,'_ David Kelly, and _'45 minutes'_ come to mind, for some strange reason!
He offered the windfall tax policy long before the Tories actually used it. Used it, with great reluctance. This was a real world policy that actually benefited people on the lowest incomes.
Take that policy to the national stage if Labour gets into government. We are better off.
He didn't used it for 2024 GE. Maybe because the Tories were sooooo poor.
In this thoughtful interview with the LP leader, Brexit stands out as Starmer's Achilles' Heel. Starmer is right: Brexit continues to be toxic and divisive. Having left, the next PM will indeed have to govern with the current thin trade deal with the EU worsening the UK's trade position. The first order of business, he rightly says, will be to detoxify EU relations and reduce trade barriers for the sake of Northern Ireland. However, even after such improvements, the thin EU deal will continue to work against the UK's economic and political interests. Starmer is thus forced to start his premiership, if he gets it, against even stronger headwinds than other economies. By not acknowledging this, he will remain ensnared in the web of lies woven by the Leave campaigns and the recent incumbents in high office. At some point, a future government will have to tell the truth of the full extent of the harm the Cons' Real Existing Brexit is causing (not limited to the economy), and start to remedy it by setting out a vision of much closer UK/EU relations, whatever form they may take. (Personally, I don't think A49 accession to the EU will happen in my lifetime.) Starmer would do better to acknowledge that his job is to make Brexit s*ck less in the short term, and that the road beyond that is as yet unclear, but on patriotic grounds refuse to close the door to more fundamental improvements. He could also promise internal reforms (changes to the electoral system, a more pluralistic media landscape, restoration of civil and human rights, ending the plight of boat people, restoring climate change to the agenda) and inquiries (on disinformation, kleptocracy, Brexit and COVID failings) to transform the UK's political landscape, putting the UK onto a better footing to engage rationally with its future prospects (and not coincidentally with the EU).
Best performance from Keir Starmer I’ve yet heard. Keep up this standard. Also keep reforming Labour Party which recently has been severely damaged by left wingers without principles set upon trashing decent centrist members in pursuit of unprincipled agendas.
In the kindest way why do you believe this. I’ll vote for him regardless but he truly hasn’t outlined any concrete plans on how he will do the things he’s aiming for like bringing the economy forward
Aaah, almost make me think hes not a wet blanket (no offence Keir) but still cant help but think we'd do better with Angela. Tories cant really argue with a stocky lass literally raised via suretstart and new labour social policies. She's a literal product of all the best elements of New labour and shows the current generation what we've lost under 12 years of tories.
After Starmers’ lack of appropriate condemnation of all the horrors in Gaza….he has lost my vote. The Tories are terrible, and he has lost my vote. I don’t trust his values. What a world we have let develop😢
Rory I think you ask too much of KS when you put it to him that our electoral system needs restructuring. PR means the diminution of power of the Labour Party (and regardless of KS's claimed aspiration to the contrary, let's be clear that of course for party members the party comes first). I was a central government civil servant for 25 years and watched an endless succession of ministers come and go, every one of them without exception morphing into their predecessor within weeks of arrival in post, regardless of their politics or pre-appointment rhetoric. There has to be a change.
Indeed and it also puts him in a bit of a pickle. What we can hope here is that he's thinking these thoughts in private, because even though the labour party would probably win fewer seats under PR, the likelihood they'd be able to govern, albeit in a coalition or by confidence and supply agreement is much much greater than under FPTP, so as the pragmatic man that he is, PR will be in his interest. I just think (and hope) that KS reckons openly backing electoral reform and a Lab-Lib electoral coalition could lead to more internal division in the Labour party, since there are those who don't want to compromise and would rather spend endless time in opposition. He also knows that the right-wing media would pounce on electoral reform and claim it was a way to rig elections. I'm not sure that they would succeed, but fear campaigns can and do unfortunately work. So my hope is that there are many things (including on Brexit and PR) that he thinks in private, but for strategic reasons, is not saying out loud.
Very informative and enjoyable except a huge disappointment with Starmer opposing PR voting, which he used to support. Labour's old guard have got to him, putting Labour exceptionalism over the needs of people and the country and leaving the UK to 3/4 ruled in monopoly power by largely incompetent Tory governments who have never achieved 50% of the vote in seventy odd years and achieved average growth levels lower than. Labour's.
I zoned out listening to Keir Starmer. It's just political waffle. "Let's invest in renewable energy to kickstart the economy." OK? Is that your flagship policy? How many jobs will that bring in? What is the value of the market? How will we invest in green technology here at home?
Pretty easy to say "we will invest in green technology", because every politician does it.
"What are you going to do about Scotland?" "We have to look forward. We have to make an exciting argument about the future of Scotland." THEN DO IT. LET'S HEAR IT. You need to break the SNP's hold on Scotland and that's your best answer? After BJ Scotland is pretty intent on a new referendum, why do they want to vote for someone who won't give it to them?
God it's so useless listening to this man, there's no policy, just waffle.
He's not going to lay down a costed manifesto in a podcast 2 years from the next election, and neither would anyone else.
He did smashed SNP to only 6 seats in the 2024 GE which has only completed.
Very impressed by Starmer I think he's a natural statesman and will be good for the country. But I am very disappointed by his dismissal of both Electoral reform and the all-consuming elephant in the room that is brexit. I think he's being disingenuous on both counts and can only hope he's playing it safe until election time because making brexit work is an oxymoron.
NO!!! If you lie and have no principles you end up where Johnson is ffs. Starmer - I'm losing faith.
I predict Labour will be elected with a large majority.
You got that one right but the Tories were very poor and was very negative. Think that Starmer is probably the LUCKIEST person in the UK as probably have a 2 term as PM as the Tories will probably split which haven't yet happened as time of writing but it is coming.
27:00 politics isn’t broken LOL
Sounds like a man looking for some sound bites. Sorry, leveĺing up has already been taken. Politics is a job for these people.
First
How odd. My post at 4am this morning - addressed to Starmer's team and qualifying my support - has been deleted. Looks like my comment on puritanical and intolerant ID pol has just been proved right. One (red wall) vote now lost....
KS is a well intentioned and basically frank man but he lacks something that will make him stand out. He is boring for a start, though his jokes at PMQ are getting better. Also too cautious and this is reflected in the Labour Party. His one big idea is that Labour is now better and more electable than the Tories because he has disciplined the left and the Tories are in disarray. Not much of a platform to stand on and to inspire a wonderful future for the UK. He is, to be fair, working within the limitations of a country whose media and many people are instinctively hostile to Labour and the left more broadly. Labour need to get the Tories out but I'm not sure they can do it without some sort of understanding with the other parties. Also the likely outcome is Labour having the largest number of MPs but no overall majority and so will have to rely on some sort of deal with the other parties.
Blue labour again
Yup...
The same dodgy Starmer who tried to overturn a national referendum vote.