Remember when in the Sonic Boom TV series (specifically the episode titled "The Meteor") Orbot states and I quote: "We are programmed to only obey orders when we feel threatened"? Say what you will about if the TV series is canon, it still points out that threatening his minions is an intentional design choice.
I really prefer eggman having this dynamic with his robots or whatever instead of familiarity, it fits his character more. i love the typical main villain and his silly minions trope and especially with orbot and cubot, it brings out some funny interactions between them and eggman. melodramatic is not his thing :P
@@Gemidori and even there Bowser doesn't magically stop being bad just because of him having a son. (Or multiple kids? Depending on what the Koopalings are)
@@Gemidori. Sonic is the antithesis of Mario, so this feels like an intentional face slap to his fans! I might not be one, but did my homework. Did I hit the bulls' eye?
To me the way I see Orbot and cubot are like counterparts to Tails and Knuckles as Orbot is a lot like tails well Cubot is like Knuckles but has elements of his gullible elements well Orbot has tails smarts but less of him being Loyal to Eggman like Tails is with sonic
I honestly also thought Egg was only so kind and empathetic towards Sage because she's, by some definitions, his greatest creation. She's a would-be living monument of his own egomania and pride. A colossal, but 100% self-centered achievement, like Ian said It isn't like Bowser, who genuinely loves and cares for his kids in almost every portrayal, and even his troops in some other portrayals. If anything Robotnik is the total opposite. He has consistently smacked around and bossed around his minions since he first had them. For the others, it's legal in a twisted way. They are just robots; property, not people, no matter how much intellect or personality they have. He has the right to do whatever he wants with them because they're _not alive,_ and he's so wicked that he's willing to exploit the hell out of that if it means it'll entertain him some. But for an almost human AI, merely throttling her like the others wouldn't keep her under his thumb; he would have to be more manipulative. I may not know the series that well compared to others, but I've seen enough to know one thing; Dr. Eggman is not really a father as much as he is a master, a commander. A *_nasty_* ass one.
Exactly! It's what makes him so fun to watch - he's a straight up unrepentant cruel tasmaster. And he enjoys it! Look at how he treats the Zeti in Lost World after all. There might be some attachment to Sage, but it's otherwise mostly about how HE is so great that Sage has come into being. Which apparently was the intention the whole time lol. also since he's Eggman and Sage is an AI, he can probably modify her code or memories whenever he pleases. It's not like Robotniks don't have a history of doing that - just look at what Gerald did (somehow) with Shadow.
A:"given how mutch praise Ian flynn gets nowdays, it's Best to cut him out of This discussion lest he becomes the blue blurr's version of Dave Filoni. B:"never the less, I agree, Dr eggman's ego is too large to allow anyone inside his heart, with the only concerns regarding them never extending beyond usefulness in the next scheme he's hatching! Correct?
So it’s like an inversion of Cell’s thoughts on Dr Gero, where instead of ‘he must be a genius because he created me,’ it’s more like ‘she must be special because I created her and she isn’t an immediate disappointment?’
Though it is inevitable, he does seem to really care about her. So I can see him bonding with her and working with her. I just can’t wait to see Sage interacting with her brothers
He has shown that most of his “care” to his robots goes to metal, and all of his real love and care goes sage. But after all his failures, and sentient failures at that (Neo, or/cubot, gamma, heavies), he’s probably begun feeling lonely, since his only currently known family (Maria, Gerald), are canonically dead. It’s probably gotta be hell living with 2 loud idiots, one spewing nothing out his mouth, another one who can’t talk and walks really loud, while you also have to remember he tried to kill you, knowing you built several that either rebelled against you (a.d.a.m, Gemerl), joined the other side (emerl), or have gone missing altogether. (Mecha sonic, m. knux, sigma) I guess you could think of orbit and cubot more as annoying nephews. Athough their stupidity, annoyingness and not being “evil” would seem to be some kind of malfunction, or mistake on his part, stated in an egg memo. I’m not even gonna talk about scratch and grounder..
There's no canonical evidence that he's actually lonely and this video emphasizes that he's still very abusive towards his robots who are now supposed to be his "children" since he went along with Sage's suggestion of them being like her brothers. In fact, with the way Eggman canonically treats Metal in the actual game canon, I'd say Metal has good reason to betray Eggman in the sense that Eggman has been very neglectful towards him with the amount of times he abandons and punishes him, as I show in the video. A lot of those examples of sentient robots you brought up also aren't canon to the games, so they're not part of the question here or set a canon example of how he really feels and treats his creations. I'm not a fan of going off speculation without game canon basis on the subject of game canon events and interactions. Nothing in the games suggests that Eggman is actually lonely, and with what we've seen in the games and heard from Ian Flynn on the subject of his writing for Sage in the game, Eggman's "love" for his creations is by his own very shallow, self-centered, self praising perspective, which is very accurate for his character and actually adds up with everything we know prior. Which I think is much better than a massive shift of character out of nowhere, or then suddenly attempting to say he's lonely and just wants love for us to sympathize with him, even though he's a terrible person and his real evil motives are far from just wanting love and family.
funnily enough, the writers of sonic boom have confirmed THAT version of eggman sees them as his only real friends... but he'd never admit it. and still treats them terribly
that's what makes it even funnier that people try to insist he's genuinely caring and a good father to them in the games. because even with Boom Eggman who did refer to them as family and stuff, he treated them terribly. so even if game Eggman had seen then as family back then, though he clearly didn't, he still wouldn't have been any better to them. which is why there's no chance he's suddenly going to become nicer to them just because he's entertained the idea of them being Sage's brothers lol
@@EggEmperor maybe with a LOT of time and reflection, but right away? no.... i imagine she's going to treat them better though. and they already treat each other quite well... his machines have some very interesting relationships, and a lot of humanity.
You know, I didn’t originally really think of it this way. He definitely ain’t the worst father in all of gaming, but you do make a lot of good points.
The reason Eggman likes Sage is because she's useful and boosts his own ego by being his creation. He's not a wholesome dad. If anything, Sage being a child plays to his facilitate his worst traits. Sage as a character is constantly looking for praise and validation from Eggman, a narcissistic, self-centered character. He doesn't care about her, he cares about the adoration he gets from her, and how useful she is to him. Everyone can make their wholesome Eggdad comics and fanart, but please do not forget who Dr. Eggman actually is as a character.
Yeah, there's definitely more of an emphasis on the word MY of MY daughter than daughter when it comes to Eggman and SAGE. Not to mention if SAGE does stick around she'll have to fight against the heroes regardless of how fond he is of SAGE.
@@manosdaskalakis4452 yes, because daughters historically are treated well by all fathers :P Everything Eggman does or says HAS to be taken into account along with the fact that he's a megalomanical mad scientist who likes building dangerous amusement parks for fun. in character Eggman will do whatever he thinks will keep Sage working hard, and if she starts failing him then we've already seen how he reacts to that. It's in the video after all.
@@powervidsful Eggman brought back a version of Sage. we don't now if it's the same one from th end of the game. Putting aside the fact Sage, as an AI, can't quite die because Eggman could just restore previous versions of her at will, thin about what type of person he is and how he views the world. He likes something as long as he gets some gain or value out of it. And Sage in the narrative is something he considers very useful indeed, and unlike other creations gets destroyed saving HIM. But he's Eggman, and Sage has been messing around with the Ancient neural network thing. So he just yoinks a back up of her out because he'll be damned if he lets one of his most useful creations be wasted on a bitch ass eldritch space rock. Like I said, what is heartwarming for someone else becomes sinister when you remember who Eggman IS - an entitled manchild with the ego 5x Jupiter's size and the ability to back it up. He doesn't bother acknowledging the sacrifice Frontiers!Sage makes, he just gets another one that may or may not be the same as the one that blew up and keeps trucking. He needs an assistant in cataloging all of Starfall's secrets for himself after all.
Or sega could just remake adventures 1 and 2 and start the timeline a new. This time with more spit and polish like Josh Keaton being the Sonic Roger Craig Smith wished to and Mark Hamil as eggman!
I was never fond of the idea of Dr. Eggman suddenly being a father figure ever since Frontiers. especially with the whole metal and eggman in a father son realtionship. i knew it wasn't healthy but this video helped with futher evidence to my idea. i thank you for that
This is exactly the point I've been making since Frontiers' day 2: Why would Eggman abuse and belittle Orbot and Cubot every day but act fatherly twoards SAGE? Precedent would have him lash out on their first interaction or something.
@Charmy The Charizard Because if you play Sonic Games during the 2010s, Sonic Frontiers, or read its prologue from the IDW comics, You might know that Eggman is aware that Orbot and Cubot are useless. and in Sonic Frontiers, he did said that sage will be a refreshing change of pace from them meaning he is planning on replacing them. He need to take time to program life-like personalities into minions and all it does is frustrates him, And the true point of reason as to why he abuse and belittle Orbot and Cubot and act fatherly towards Sage & (sometimes) Metal Sonic? It is because all he wanted for once -- just once! -- was for his creations to fill him and his ego with pride, NOT REGRET! Which kind of make sense to me because "Breathes" Orbot & Cubot are the worst henchmen/assistants/lackeys Dr. Eggman can possibly have, because all they do is complain, insult, undermine, & worse of all make bad jokes which is kind of antithetical to his goals & himself if you think about it. Even If you compare to them to Sage or his past robotic henchmen trio like Scratch, Grounder & Coconuts from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, & Decoe, Bocoe & Bokkun from Sonic X, They've look like wimps. And They're; Unlike Orbot and Cubot, not as redundant and annoying as these Shape Bots are right now. They are more funny & sympathetic than them, & They're more intimidating than them too. Not only do they succeeded at being comedic relief; They evolved from it, & outside of that they gave everything that have to offer. Because with them, they also prove to Eggman that (due to his ego) they can be a very useful & competent unit of robotic henchmen that his empire has to serve & offer to help of his evil plan/goals of destroying sonic and his friends, & achieving world domination (1). Scratch, Grounder, & Coconuts from AOSTH, They are not only built to be Eggman's Henchmen, there also built to be his new group of elite robots called: The super special sonic search & smash squad in his scheme to capture & finally get rid of sonic the hedgehog only for them to fail miserably. They also have cool looking abilities, such Scratch having the ability to peck, his neck being telescopically expandable & retractable, Scissor Fingers, Etc. Grounder having the ability to his drills for digging underground but also uses them to switch into the gadget that he wants, even His dreads can be turned into rocket engines to increase his speed, & Coconuts, who has the ability to throw coconut bombs, He's also good at setting traps, a prehensile tail, & like any other ability monkeys would have: acrobatic skills. Despite not being part of the squad, in some episodes he can be quite of useful member when working alongside Eggman, Scratch, & Grounder. Unlike Orbot and Cubot where in sonic colors they weld a laser gun & a butterfly net to catch and hunt down the wisps, A LASER GUN & BUTTERFLY NET! HOW UTTERLY PATHETIC & LAUGHABLE LAME IS THAT? (2). Decoe, Bocoe & Bokkun from Sonic X: Ever since Season 2 & 3, not only do they succeeded at being comedic relief, they also got evolved character development to the point of becoming real compentant characters, & unlike Orbot & Cubot who only are built to do data analysis & cleaning, they are built to be Eggman's Servants on the outside, but down deep on the inside, "way down inside" we know goddamn well their built for battle hence Decoe & Bocoe's cool skill ability to fuse together turning themselves into one unit such as Bokkun Beacon or Decoe Bocoe Brain Bazooka, Even Bokkun's skill ability to use explosives mostly the ones that are video message recorders in the shape of televisions, as well as having skill of having a super powerful kick that knock Black Narcissus (One of the Metarex) back to his commander's throne. A lot of fans say that they are forgettable & even if they do remembered them, They said they are a 2.0 version of Scratch, Grounder & Coconuts, But Don't You See to understand? They are so much more than that! Even though they are forgettable you have to remember that if you watch the Anime or Read the Archie Comics; You have to know that they are more than just bumbling minions, they are actually the closest thing of Dr. Eggman having friends or companions, There's a sense of comradery in these four. Kind of like how Metal Sonic & Sage - the most effective robot & AI duo Eggman has ever created and it is closest thing of him having a son & daughter, I mean; why do ya think he say "That's my boy" to Metal Sonic in the IDW comics & "Be careful, dear daughter!" or "That's My Girl!" to Sage in Sonic Frontiers. Speaking of Metal Sonic, Let talk about the voice chip gimmick that Cubot has. The only effective solution to sort out & take care of the voice chip problem is: To take out the gosh darn voice chip. he doesn't need to speak, 99% of Eggman's machines don't take & they function just fine. Metal Sonic "like i said Before" is the most effective robot he has ever created and He only speaks in his Neo form, which only exists for one game: ("That being Sonic Heroes"). And it wasn't until he started talking that he decided to betray Eggman. Which, one would think, is a good stinking incentive to never give any of his creations the ability to speak! "Okay" Writers of SEGA & Sonic Team in the 2010s let me tell you something! Give me one good reason why giving Cubot, of all of his robots, speech capabilities was good thing for Eggman? Go on, Try getting that pig to fly. I'll wait. EXACTLY! We all know Dr. Eggman of having a massive ego, he would create beings to stroke that ego, not trod all over it. This makes absolutely no sense. Here's my rebuttal: (1) they fail at being funny, therefore they have failed the sole purpose of their existence, so if you try defending them you made the problem even worse. (2) You can't sacrifice logic & reason just in order for comedic characters to exist, THAT IS INSANELY BAD WRITING! He wouldn't intentionally make these robots behave like this & If he accidently did, He would immediately fix so they are more loyal, less annoying, & more competent. & if he didn't fix them it would be for a very good reason, there would be some major event or obstacle keeping them from accessing tools to fix his robots. There has to be some reason why Orbot & Cubot are the way they are & Eggman isn't fixing them, but never get one inkling of a reason. The fact Pontaff "the writers" forced him to have these idiotic floating shapes is SO character breaking that it induces nausea & aneurysm everytime i see them. Orbot and Cubot are pathetic & obnoxiously annoying cowards that are way worse than BubbleMan.Exe - the worst NetNavi from Mega Man Battle Network 3!
Concise and to the point, very well done video! I appreciate it when there is evidence for a point presented clearly and without nonsense, unlike most fan theory content on UA-cam. Goes to show you made this because you wanted to, not just to grab some quick advertiser cash. Signing the adoption papers for Metal as I'm writing this!
Looking back with Eggmans robots I Now see theme more as dark reflections of Sonic and his friends as Metal is meant to show what Sonic would become had he been made into a Machine and turn heartless' Orbot and cubot are Tails and Knuckles but with there roles and colors swap The E series being sonic friends as counterparts to theme due to there colors and how Eggman treats theme and Saga being Tails as the cloest thing to Eggman much like Sonic is with Tails also Belle being Omega due to both of theme being made by Eggman and view nothing more than rejects
Wow! This was a PERFECT compilation of Eggman’s incredibly abusive nature toward his creations. He’s a very selfish and cruel man. He does have glimpses of humanity, meaning that he admires his grandfather and has some inferiority complex. One of the Egg Memos shows that he is jealous of Maria getting all the attention even after she died. He isn’t Andross (who is a complete monster) but he’s definitely not a role model parent.
Looking back with Orbot and cubot it easily hinting the reason why Eggman made theme was after seeing Sonic friends stop metal in the events of Sonic heroes might've been inspired to make his own tails and Knuckles and the reason why in Unleased there was a white orbot showing it was a Prototype and after Making Orbot Eggman made Cubot as a upgrade and why his voice chip was acting him was due to him being out of the woodwork and Him saying to theme he made theme in his freetime was him telling the truth but not admitting he saw theme as his own Tails and Knuckles
@@eljereaumartiena747 Bowser: So did Metal Sonic and most of the baddies you hire mostly betray you like Chaos, Metal Sonic, Deadly Six, Dark Gaia, and Shadow turned good.
@@BlueJourney2719 eggman: better betrayed than be posessed by a hag and whatever that thing was that make you look cool like a dragon to be saved by mi worst enemy
@@BlueJourney2719 eggman: metal is different than those ingrates his software i installed in makes him impossible to change he only wants conquest like me
@@eljereaumartiena747 Bowser: At least I got my own rocket launcher and kicked the crap out of Cursa in the next game and got my own reality warping flower that isn't said to be illusions and isn't inconsistent.
And that's only covering the games. Eggman has quite a dozen children overall and he treated them like crap one way or another: Robotnik Jr, Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, Heavy and Bomb from Knuckles Chaotix, Fleetway comics Metamorphia(though his right hand man Grimer is more logical since he built her, she still craved for Eggman's appreciation), ART from Sonic Underground, Mecha Robotnik and A.D.A.M from Archie comics, Decoe, Bocoe and sometimes Bokkun from Sonic X and IDW Belle.
@@ashesGeek. I Was only able to see the show til the flying fortress episode(because kidsco the channel wich had it go"under"for some reason afterwards)!
@@erikbihari3625 Ah, fellow Kids Co Sonic Underground viewer. Yeah, I totally understand you, though I wonder where are you from I'd you're OK with this question? Some episodes were not aired in my language as well
@@ashesGeek. I give you some hints, smackdabbed in the middle of Europe and one of ours is responsible for world's most famous journalism prise's name.
He definitely softens in the last game. Now you can argue that's entirely based on Sage's usefulness to him, but he does seem to be genuinely heartbroken about her loss and does go to great lengths to bring her back. You can argue that's not a great direction to take the character, but that's a separate argument.
But I'm going by what Ian Flynn actually said in this video, did you watch you it I don't think that's what was happening with his character based on that and how it reflects in the memo You can't tell how he actually looked when she died, it could've been disappointment in losing his perfect creation before he could utilize it properly And he didn't really, he brought her back in like 15 mins later easily by typing up some shit lol
@@EggEmperor Ian Flynn can say what he wants to. But if he wants to convince me that his interpretation is accurate, he'll have to show me. I do believe that Eggman loves Sage based on narcissism. Most parents do. They brag about their children because they came from them. That's it. There's nothing inherently deeper behind it, good or bad. It's a time skip. We don't know how long went by before he found her again. The fact that he made an effort shows he cared about her. Sage is the favored child. The one who surpassed her program to become something more advanced. Most importantly he listens to her, something he's never done before with any of his creations. He becomes Sonic's ally and lets her go try to save the world, all at her emotional prompting. You can argue that it's not the direction to take Eggman in. You may be right. But it is the direction the game leaves us with.
When Eggman zapped Metal back to life in Sonic 4, his demand was to head to Mad Gear, which was apparently made for upgrading Metal Sonic since the defunct promotional website specifically asked about its existence in its tease of Episode Metal.
I've always assumed that he makes his immideate vicinity of robots idiots so that they don't rise against them, like gamma, omega and metal sonic in certain cases
lol yeah it would've been a great time but I was really eager to get this out asap, been itching to make it for a while! so Eggman can get his worst dad award early this year. XD
@@EggEmperor. Speaking of wich, what would you think if firelord ozai and prince zuko voiced eggman and knuckles respectively? Latter could've used earlier!
where is he being way nicer? his dynamic with Sage is still based purely on selfishness and egotism and what she can do for him, he's literally constantly talking about how he wished he could carry out his evil plans and plotting and scheming throughout the base game in the Egg Memos and in The Final Horizon in his island convo dialogue, he still talks about how much he hates Sonic despite recognizing and respecting his abilities, still laughed and expressed glee towards Sonic dying from Cyber Corruption, and only cares about saving the world to save himself and the world he wants to conquer as Sage says for him much to his delight and otherwise absolutely despises it and you can see him express this very clearly and that's even with the writer commentary of Flynn saying Eggman is still very much a "BAD person" and Eggman and Sage's dynamic is supposed to be "unsettling" and he came around to it "for all the wrong reasons" aside they're portraying it in character very well right now in a way that they don't change his character at all in general, and instead strengthen and further develop the traits he already has of his evil, narcissism, and egotism. plus in Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, there are examples of Eggman programming his robots with feelings just so he can manipulate them and also yells at Orbot and Cubot the same as ever. and that's much better and I character he still only praises Sage for what she can do for him and still treats his inferior creations badly. those are the terms for Eggman having a parental dynamic with his creations and that's way better than him genuinely becoming a nicer person in any way.
The way i see Orbot and cubot are pretty much his Tails and Knuckles as it hinted that after the events of Sonic heroes Eggman might've been inspired By sonic and his friends working together so Wanted to built his own teammates as with Unleased The orbot we saw in that game was a early prototype and after Unleased finally Made Orbot and when Colors finally came built Cubot but due to his faulty voice chip hinting he was in early stages
The way I do see Belle and Sage are like the two kids to the one bad parent as when Belle with Eggman we see how Eggman see Belle nothing more than just a Robot than the child his old persona viewed her as but when Sage is with Eggman this is Eggman feeling he finally has someone he loves and admires even know it for his own ego something a Bad parent do with one child they saw as there own self image
If we're going to discuss how Eggman treated Emerl, then we can't forget Gemerl in Sonic Advance 3 who took revenge on Eggman when he got the seven chaos emeralds.
Eggman only did that when he was completely near death and probably wanted to give Shadow that last bit of desperate motivation for Shadow to defeat Devil Doom and save him and the world he wants to rules. Also in Expert Mode, he asks Shadow if he's upset with him for something, referring to the whole ordeal, then shrugs and laughs it off like an asshole lol. He wasn't sorry about the abusive gaslighting at all and the only time he admitted it was after it'd failed and he was also near death. Really says a lot about how much of a selfish jerk he is, how he'll lie and use someone and then only admit in times of desperation and near death, then carelessly brushing it off after.
@@EggEmperor that first part is speculation though. I've always read that as him admitting the truth as he knew he would die and thus would have nothing to lose (Eggman does say it's his "last chance" to tell him the truth, so he was likely fully expecting to die). Even in this case, he would have nothing to gain from it.
@@ElisatheNerd Yours is just as much speculation for that part though. I think him waiting until the absolute last second when death seemed likely, so late into the fight that you won't even hear it in the average time it takes to beat, points to an act of desperation that can support my idea. Especially combining it with how he acts after. With that I see it as anything but him caring and regretting it, considering his attitude in Expert Mode shows the exact opposite.
To be perfectly honest, I think Eggman can still remain an intimidating villain and still treat some of his other robotic units harshly even if he does have this new fatherly bond with Sage. Other villains in media have similar situations and still remain as intimating as ever even if they have a soft spot for a select few people.
Egg emperor, since blue blurr's block busters bank, I dug. And realised knuckles' portrayal by Sonic X tainted his reputation simularly to what superfriends did with aquaman! Any thoughts?
00:59 I'm literally crying because I had seen Eggman hitting Orbot and Cubot and I had laughed, but now that I saw that Orbot was scared of Eggman because of that I'm crying because I wasn't supposed to laugh/srs
I don't think anybody is crazy enough to claim Eggman was a good father figure for any of his creations. But the entire point of Frontiers depiction of him is that he is changing. You can hold his past against him of course, but everyone is capable of change. Sage is in a unique position where she really got under his skin unlike any other of his creations. And yes, I think he is not quite there yet. In the end he was willing to sacrifice her in the original Frontiers ending, self-prservation clearly trumps his affection for her. But I can totally see a future story where Eggman has to choose between his goal and saving Sage and he will choose the latter.
@@yoursonisold8743 Sorry but ain't nobody or anything ever going to make the biggest most egotistical narcissist on the planet choose someone else over himself and his selfish goals. Even Frontiers proved that and it won't change His entire value of Sage is based on his self centeredness and ego and benefit in the first place and he let her sacrifice herself for him and get into danger multiple times. A scene like that could never happen People are severely downplaying his narcissism as if his entire motives with his desire to conquer the world and everything else he does isn't fueled solely by it
@@EggEmperor Nah, I think you are completely underselling how different Eggman's behaviour with Sage is. And change is a process, not a flip to switch. You showed in this video how Eggman would immediately abandon Metal if he isnt useful, but I can absolutley not see Eggman do this with Sage. Remember that in Frontiers he saw no other way to survive than to let her sacrifice herself. If his life isn't on the line it seems much more likely that he would give her priority over any scheme he is currently running. After all he has lost so many times, but Sage is unique. I get it, you prefer evil callous Eggman, but change is inevitable and necessary for a franchise that goes into the decades.
I just want to say a some things Eggman's warming up to the family dynamic, and in Frontiers is whenever he accepted it, if you want proof just read IDW, Eggman treated Orbot, Cubot, and Metal Sonic way better than he did in any of the games, and even referred to himself as Metal's father a few times, in Frontiers you can literally hear him fully accepting the family dynamic fully in the Egg Memos, then we get to TMOSTH and probably just other games after Frontiers in general, where he fully accepted it. Also, with the Shadow and Emeral thing, it seems like after what was revealed about Gerald in SA2, Eggman just hated everything about his family, we can see some of that anger in the part of Egg Memo 17 that you skipped over, at this point I don't think he wants anything to do with Shadow, and Emeral he just saw as a means to an end. Another reason Eggman treats Shadow horribly could be because of Shadow's connection to Maria, Shadow does the exact same thing Eggman's parents, grandparents, aunt, and unlce did to him. One last thing: You used Lego Dimensions, to make your point.
"If you want proof" **cites IDW** at least I actually used game examples only. The points in this video still stand. Eggman's dynamic with Sage is based purely on what she can do for him and how he can take pride in her, it's egotistical and selfish on his side as Flynn explained. This doesn't change at all throughout the main story or the Final Horizon at all. Yes, he sees Sage as his daughter, I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm saying these are the reasons why and that it isn't genuinely wholesome, selfless, caring, and pure on his side. It's very conditional and we see this in the story multiple times and it's explained very clearly by Eggman in the memos and Ian Flynn as the writer. Also Murder of Sonic literally proves he takes advantage of his creations by programming them with feelings to give them a bigger drive to get work done, and it has him yelling at Orbot and Cubot as much as ever. It literally just gave me more evidence. He doesn't hate Gerald, he still brags about being related to him in SA2, Shadow, and TailsTube. He doesn't feel "anger" towards *everything* about his family. The memo about Maria just shows how selfish and entitled Eggman is as he was acting bratty and entitled towards the attention Maria got, not caring that it was because she was a kind 12 year old girl with a terminal illness. It shows his low empathy and ego in his resentment towards her for it. And the comparison of Sage to her could imply that he thinks that Sage being an impression creation that could be similar to Maria in ways, means he could finally get some of that attention and bask in the praise and attention as her genius creator. He was the one that manipulated and gaslit Shadow into trying to get him to join his side so he could take advantage and use him to do his dirty work. If he could do so successfully and permanently then he would as he clearly feels entitled to owning and using Shadow just because he was created by his grandfather. He doesn't hate Shadow because he was created by him, instead he wishes he could keep and use him because *his* grandfather created him, that's the exact opposite. He only hates Shadow because he won't obey him and tries to stop him and get in his way instead. Saying it's because of Maria or something is baseless because that was *years* before they decided on this tidbit of info in the memos. Using Lego Dimensions doesn't make my entire point invalid. Most of my evidence is from the main game titles. The point of that being there is because I was getting *all* the evidence from every game out at the time, regardless of status in canon, but the real meat of it is all canon. The Dimensions stuff is just a bonus, along with other games that aren't that canon like Runners. But it still proves an ongoing theme in all kinds of official games, for him to treat his creations terribly. And that's still saying a lot about his character as a result. It's better to use any and all game examples than a comic that has contradicted the games many times in many different ways.
@@EggEmperor Wow, all you've just proven to me is you didn't actually pay attention to the things I was saying, for some reason don't think IDW is canon, and don't deserve the title "EggEmporer"
@@wamalam lmfao what. I replied to every point you brought up, how is that not paying attention :P IDW is contradictory af. Flynn himself said "as long as there's no contradictions we're good [for it to be canon]" and yet there are *tons.* so I will disregard it. I deserve the title Egg Emperor more than anyone lol. I like to "show you what real evil is", the tagline of the boss it's referencing hehe I love evil Eggman and he's going to remain evil and egotistical and it's going to keep affecting the dynamic he has with his creations. :)
@@EggEmperor you replied to every point, but the only points you actually succeeded in proving wrong, with actual facts, were the exaggerations I did. Really? Contradictions, how so? Because I can't see anymore than Sonic Prime, which is also confirmed to be canon. Also, really? You prefer Eggman to not have any humanity and just be pure evil? Honestly, that's just lame
@@wamalam lol what. yeah everything you said was an exaggeration and I proved it I don't care to list all the contradictions as many don't involve Eggman and that isn't my level of expertise. but multiple people have covered them. but for example, Eggman saying he doesn't think of himself as evil despite referring to himself, his creations, and his actions as *evil* multiple times throughout the games. and there's tons more that don't involve Eggman also where did I say that. I just said Eggman doesn't have a good soft side. he's never done anything genuinely nice and selfless and it's always for selfish egotistical self serving reasons. Sage is literally just another example of it Eggman has humanity already. it shows in him being evil. being a terrible person who is egotistical and selfish is very human. it represents the bad parts and what greed, narcissism, and lust for power can do to a person. and every look into his personal thoughts and feelings, no matter how selfish and egotistical and evil he's being in them, is also humanizing him by reminding people he's a human with thoughts and feelings too. making him an uwu poor baby tragic backstory or wholesome father is a lame and cheap way of "humanizing" him when there are far more interesting complex ways. humanizing a character doesn't always have to be through a way that's morally correct. terrible people are human too.
he can't just suddenly become a different person because time skipped and we didn't see the change or development happen or be explained at all, that'd be bad writing. and they never said they aged them up, they just removed the ages from the bio without explaining why and that could mean anything. also it wouldn't suddenly erase or excuse all the bad things Eggman has done, so even if that had happened then all of this would still apply.
alright well there'd be nothing to play devil's advocate for other than the fandom's misinterpretation because everything in this video and the Eggman and Sage dynamic not being as wholesome as everyone acts like it is is actually canon fact lol :P
13:04 Wow, I'm kinda surprised because this is a very rare act of stupidity for Ian. I get that the point of this video is to bring up all the times Eggman has demonstrated he's awful to his creations, but it sort of ignores all the times he's shown he genuinely DOES care about his creations, like with Metal, Orbot and Cubot, yes he calls them useless every now and then, but if really believed that, why keep them around? With Metal, you could argue it's because he's a powerful robot who has shown better results than any of Eggman's other creations, but what about Orbot and Cubot? If they're really as useless and annoying as he says, why not get rid of them? And to be fair with Gemerl, he didn't actually know much about how he was created, and he definitely didn't know about his soul being based on Maria, same with Shadow. But more importantly than all of that, even if Eggman was an absolutely horrible father before, this could've been the START, I'm sure most people will agree that Eggman and Sage's bond in Frontiers is one of the best parts of it and it doesn't actually come from nowhere, in the IDW comics (which, I should point out, were also written by Ian Flynn), Eggman HAS shown a bit more care for his creations, mainly due to the whole Mr Tinker situation, Sonic even pushes him several times to be more like that, to be a better person because he now knows it IS possible. The reforming Eggman arc was right there and ready to go, it could've been a great part of the next few games and finally give these characters the development they need to be better characters, and the worst part is, Ian Flynn is the one who set it all up, with both the comics and Sonic Frontiers, he could've done something really good with the character... and instead he just says "Nah, Eggman's just selfish". It's just stupid, even more so because he said this AFTER the game came out and everyone had already gotten the opposite impression and LIKED it, he threw away a great story for, what sounds like, a joke, that's very disappointing.
What is there to even ignore? Eggman treats his creations like shit constantly with constant verbal and physical abuse as the video shows. He's not nice to them, you couldn't make a video compilation like this of him because there wouldn't be anything to compile. With how he's constantly berating and actually has abandoned them once, it'd make more sense if he only keeps them around because they at least serve their purpose as his assistants. While it gets too much for him with his temper, he could want the dynamic because he feels power in ordering and controlling them. Combatting Orbot's sass and Cubot's idiocy could make him feel superior if he succeeds in putting them down. Regardless of whether he knew about the Maria soul thing or not, even though the information was stored on his mother computer lol, he knew about Gerald working on Emerl and creating Shadow obviously. Does it stop him from beating and manipulating Emerl and gaslighting and manipulating Shadow who both have *real* connections to his family? No. That's the point I made in the video. "It hasn't came out of nowhere because *brings up non canon comic events*" It has came out of nowhere in the games as this video shows. And even then, how he acted in the brief rushed time as Tinker in it, a persona he only had because of amnesia, shouldn't be indicative of who he really is and choices he makes in his regular state of mind and identity as Eggman. Eggman is never nice to his creations. He ONLY praises robots like Gamma and Metal in any amount when they do exactly what he wants and he can be pleased and take pride in himself as their creator for the success and skill and reflection of his genius. He will quickly insult, hit, or destroy them when they fail and they're all disposable. He isn't nice to them, it's always shallow and selfish as the self-centered egotist he is. Being angry that it's not what you wanted to be doesn't mean it's bad. It makes sense for Eggman's side of the dynamic with Sage to be as shallow as Flynn described. While the signs of this should've been much bigger so people couldn't get the wrong idea of the dynamic being wholesome and pure, they are present in the game and especially the memos that everyone misinterprets. And Eggman doesn't need to be reformed just like how Sonic doesn't need to become a villain. Eggman has been the main villain of the series for 30+ years. The core of his character is that he's an evil scientist that wants to take over the world and he wouldn't be the same person without it.
@@EggEmperor Being the main villain for 30 years is making him boring, this change was something he needed to be interesting again, alright now on to your other points. Emerl wasn't created by Gerald, yes Gerald worked on him, but he doesn't have any actual connection to Eggman, and after Emerl is defeated by Sonic, Eggman still goes through the effort of rebuilding him as Gemerl, and when Sonic and friends save Gemerl and bring him back to their side, Eggman makes no attempt to change that, he just lets Gemerl go. Shadow is a lot less complicated, Eggman freed Shadow and in return, Shadow betrayed him and tried to destroy him and everyone else on Earth. Despite this, when Shadow fell to Earth, EGGMAN is the one who saved him, Eggman kept him alive, Eggman made sure he was safe, and in the final battle of Shadow the Hedgehog, he admits to this, denying what he said earlier about who Shadow was, that's him indirectly admitting what he said was wrong, quote from the game: "You truly are the Ultimate Lifeform my Grandfather created", Eggman DOES care about Shadow, the issue is that they stand on opposite sides, they HAVE to fight. Eggman has done good things for his Grandfather's creations, and he did those things because he cared. The IDW comics ARE canon, they make several references to what happens in the games, the Mr Tinker situation is a result of the final battle in Forces, and Sonic even mentions Tangle BY name in Frontiers, those events ARE canon. And in the comics, there is a shot where Eggman is repairing Metal Sonic after a failed encounter with Sonic, his words aren't cruel or insulting, they're more so prideful than anything else, not in himself, but in Metal, quote from the comic: "He wouldn't know a work of art if it punched him in the face. You did punch him in the face, right?" *Metal gives a thumbs up* "That's my boy!" So the arc those comics set up is valid, again, Sonic pushes him to be more like his Mr Tinker persona because even though it was a result of his amnesia, it's still something Eggman COULD be, it's what Sonic wants him to be, and it's something Frontiers did a good job of setting him up to be. Saying he keeps Orbot and Cubot around because they're useful assistants is dumb because they haven't done ANYTHING useful... like, at all, they annoy and insult Eggman just as much as he does them, he's never able to put them down either because Orbot's too stubborn and Cubot is too stupid, and yet he STILL keeps them around, why? Because deep down, a part of him DOES care, he isn't completely evil. Speaking of which, Eggman's reason for being evil has never really been clear, but Adventure 2 heavily implied it's because of how the world treated his Grandfather, quote again: "He was my hero and I wanted to be a great scientist just like him", when you think about it, Eggman has gone through a LOT, I'm not justifying what he's done, but it makes sense why he'd be stubborn when it comes to forming a family, and yet he's so willing to accept Sage as his daughter in Frontiers, playing the game, I never got the feeling he was proud of her because he was actually proud of himself, and most other people didn't get that feeling either, we felt like he genuinely cared about her, that this was him about to change. Now on to Ian Flynn, the issue isn't "I don't like what he's doing, so it's bad", the issue is what he's doing goes against everything he's already done, the IDW comics show Eggman CAN be a good person, Frontiers gave the impression that Eggman cared about Sage and was growing to be a better person, and after all that, Ian Flynn just randomly remarks in an interview "Nah, he's still selfish", the fact that he's laughing when he says this shows how little thought he put into it, he thinks it's a funny joke but its just stupid and invalidates everything that happens between Eggman and Sage in Frontiers and makes no sense, think about it, if Eggman was really proud of himself for creating life, that he saw Sage as more of an arrogant accomplishment (which already makes little sense since he's done it before), why would he be upset when she dies? He tells her he understands, he tells her to be careful, and when she doesn't come back, he's clearly hurt, so much so that he accesses the Ancients technology for the SOLE purpose of bringing her back, and when HE does that, when HE revives her, when HE makes this great accomplishment, what's his first words? "That's my girl." He showed pride for HER for HIS accomplishment. The issue is that Ian had a great story ready, one HE set up with how he's written these characters, one people actually liked, and then just casually throws it away in a God damn podcast, he doesn't bring it up in the game, he doesn't put it in a comic, he doesn't put any effort into establishing this part of Eggman's character, a part that contradicts what we've seen in Frontiers, he just says it because he thinks it's a funny joke, it's not funny, it's stupid and disappointing. Look, I don't want to argue with you because this is a good video, and you do make good points when it comes to the E - Series, and I'm not denying that Eggman was horrible to his creations BEFORE Frontiers, my point was Frontiers could've been the START of an arc he desperately needs, and one people would've enjoyed, but Ian has thrown it away for the sake of a 30 second joke in a random podcast and I absolutely hate it. Edit: Oh, and no one misinterprets those memos, we got the right idea, Flynn just threw it away.
@Nathan Evans Being a hero for 30+ years makes Sonic boring. See how silly that sounds? That's purely opinion and just because you think it's boring doesn't mean it is. A ton of entertainment and potential is in Eggman being an evil villain and tons of his best moments in the series are based around him doing evil, and the reason so many huge game stories even happen at all is because Eggman is evil and has a new scheme, it's a huge crucial important part of his character. Emerl has connection in being worked on by his grandfather and idol and for having the soul of Maria. This doesn't cause him to be uncharacteristically sentimental, which is the point I'm making. After beating and throwing Emerl out, he tries to get him back only because he recognizes his power can indeed be useful in the way he wants- which is why he tries to manipulate him into capturing and using him again. But that fails, so Gemerl happens because of course he wouldn't want to let that potential go if he can take advantage of it. That isn't a nice thing to do. Eggman freed Shadow only so he could use him in his own selfish goals of taking over the world. And his interactions with Shadow are anything but wholesome and caring wtf, he went and had Shadow saved after SA2 just to keep him to himself and use him to make a Shadow android army and then when he escaped, he tried to take advantage of his amnesia and gaslight and manipulate him into doing his selfish dirty work. He only admits to his lie when they're all at the risk of death as it would serve as good motivation for him to defeat Devil Doom. Also, in the expert mode that takes place after, Eggman acknowledges that Shadow seems upset with him for it and shrugs it off carelessly, not caring that he caused him more trouble and pain in the struggles of his amnesia. Eggman was abusive towards Shadow, that isn't wholesome and caring and nice. IDW ISN'T canon to the games at all. It's not the official word that it's canon in the absolute slightest. The games events are supposed to be canon to the comics but not the other way around. There are tons of contradictions and there's no way they'd suddenly make it canon and confuse everyone that isn't interested in random comics and only the games and then wonder who all these characters are and when these comic exclusive events happened. Just like referencing Sticks can't possibly make Boom canon, referencing Tangle doesn't make IDW canon. It just means they could potentially end up making game canon versions of the characters exist but that wouldn't suddenly make all the comics canon. So everything comic related you try to use to say that game Eggman is a good dad is invalid. Orbot and Cubot still serve their assistant duties. We see them reporting to him and assisting him with his tech. They are bumbling but are ultimately loyal enough that they still serve him and don't try to betray. And that's still better than how other creations of his have betrayed him, so it makes sense for him to keep them around for that reason. And with the way he's just constantly yelling at them and smacking them around and even abandoning them in space, he clearly doesn't actually care about them lol SA2 did not imply that Gerald was Eggman's motive for evil at all. He isn't trying to fulfill his grandfather's wishes or avenge him or anything at all, he literally talks about wanting to build a legacy of HIS OWN in that specific game. Making an empire and deadly theme parks where he's in control of everything and hailed as a ruler doesn't honor or avenge his grandfather in any way. He is an egomaniac and his goals are nothing be selfish. Eggman also wasn't confirmed to have admired Gerald beyond an academic level of science instead of good deeds with the way he talks about him. In Frontiers the only reason he started warming up to Sage was for "all the wrong reasons" as Ian Flynn himself put it. In a self centered way where it's still all about him and what she can do for him. He only praises her when she does what he wants her to and protect him, which is supposed to be her purpose. Saying that if he created life she would be "loyal and efficient" because "her dad is a genius" literally proves in the memo that he's only praising her in an extremely shallow self-centered way. Nobody that's a good parent says weird shit like that about their kids, Flynn was right to call it unsettling. What he said doesn't contradict it, he just could've done with making it especially clear so you couldn't interpret it wrong because you have. Flynn is the writer and knows what he's talking about. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true.
I feel like Eggman DOES have a secret good side, but I feel like Frontiers makes it a little too extreme and its not much of a good side he has. I feel like the best portrayals of his good side and entire personality were in SA2 and Lost World
I'm not sure what in those games are signs of a good side, since in SA2 he only speaks of admiring Gerald as being a great scientist instead of good person, and clearly doesn't really care about the safety of other people on the planet since he'd continue causing global destruction/hurting/trying to kill people after. And the entirety of Lost World is Eggman tricking Sonic and Tails into helping him deal with the Deadly Six and get back in control of his machine to stab them in the back after, so he was just using them all along and they need to be alive to do that.
@@bluekel615 yeah definitely, he's weirdly calm and lacking the usual charisma and energy that gives him his charm and essence. it was only there for a bit during his amused reactions to Sonic's suffering and a few Egg Memos but missing most of the time. really odd direction and I hope it's just a one-off.
@@EggEmperor. First and foremost, I'm not a Sonic fan, but since blue blurr's block busters, did my digging and couldn't help but notice simularities with Sonic Omens! Someday look into it?
I hate Orbot and Cubot so much, I hope they will be destroyed or get replaced by Sage. They have never done anything to help Eggman and they mock him in most games. Eggman is funny yes, but he is also is dangerous as shown in the adventure games, it's a fine balance between seriousness and humour but Orbot and Cubot keep breaking that. It dosen't make sense why Eggman puts up with them when they clearly don't help him. They aren't even funny like Scratch and Grounder is, they are just annoying. I actually laughed aloud in spite when Eggman smacks Orbot out of the way in the Metropolis cutscene.
I mostly agree EXCEPT Eggman deep down DOES care about Orbot and Cubot. He keeps them around despite how much they annoy them and had no reason to save them in lost world. He also cares about Sage and you made a mistake including her in the video simple as that.
No he doesn't, they've never outwardly implied that. Therefore, my theory is just as much as speculation but I find it much more realistic keeps them around purely to abuse them and feel superior to them. After all, the early version of Orbot was named "SA-55" (sass), so it would make sense if Eggman specifically made them so he could bark back at him and hit him when he's angry, and order him around so he can feel superior and in control of something. Plus they're his assistants and he has use to them in that way, they still always do what they're meant to in the end if he hits them enough. That doesn't mean he cares about them at all. And no, it wasn't a mistake to put Sage in the video. Listen to what Ian Flynn said. His pride in her is selfish and his praise in her is extremely conditional as he yells at her and thumps things one minute when she doesn't do exactly what he wants in the way he wants it and when she does, he praises her- and takes pride again as her creator in the memos, saying he specifically sees worth in her BECAUSE she's *"loyal and efficient."* so I don't see that as genuinely wholesome and sweet and caring about her as a person. plus he still let her go and sacrifice herself to save his ass and the world he wants to rule and barely cared about her death as it seemed he was disappointed for a sec like "fuck I lost her already before I could even use her to her full potential" but then looked up in determination when he realized he could literally just bring her back he absolutely hates Orbot and Cubot and his "love" for Sage isn't redeeming either, he's a bad father figure through and through
@@EggEmperor then why did he save Orbot and Cubot. He could have just made replacements but CHOSE to save them. And pretty much everyone agrees that he cares about Sage and people have even PRAISED Eggman and Sage’s relationship in frontiers. And why is he nice to her??? It’s not like she’ll turn on him.
@@Welcometoweirdmaggedon did you actually read my theory on why he keeps them around lol. what's the point in letting them fall in Lost World as long as they're useful to him in any amount? saves the hassle. and that's a theory just as much as you saying it's because he cares but mine seems a lot more likely with all things considered. either way, you can't tell that much for sure on the smallest second of animation that they don't even acknowledge. what about the time Eggman left them in SPACE and how it was the reason they weren't in Generations? when he abandoned them in a heartbeat to pursue his next tool in his plans because he didn't need them for a while? wow very caring XD sorry but I don't care about what the mass majority of fandom who don't understand the dynamic at all is saying and how much they like ignoring everything that makes it interesting to turn it into sweet wholesome pure uwu content. I'm going purely by what actually happens in the game and also what Ian Flynn himself said, not what fans want and have tried to convince themselves is canon over what we see in the actual game and what the actual writer said. he isn't even completely nice to Sage because as I said, he still yells at her when she doesn't do things his way, he's clearly viewing her accomplishments in a very selfish self aggrandizing way as he takes credit for it, and his praise is extremely conditional and self centered, he literally specifically compliments her for what she can do for him and how amazing and genius and impressive of a creator that makes him as her father. the memos + Ian Flynn's writer commentary says this word for word.
@@EggEmperor Why would eggman WANT to annoy himself? Even if it was just to feel superior to them they are basically useless so what is he controlling exactly? And I said he cares about them DEEP DOWN. As for Sage He LITERALLY CALLED HER HIS DAUGHTER. (And now to hear the counter argument)
my theory is that they're annoying because Eggman made them to be inferior to him and sass him so he could combat it and feel like he's won when he controls them or wins the argument. only problem is that because of his very short temper and how they do it beyond the amount he wants, he can get really pissed off with them. makes sense to me and is way more realistic and interesting than him secretly caring for them. they do their jobs decently enough for her satisfaction after whacking them about. him calling Sage his daughter doesn't mean he's a good father? lol you can be a shitty dad and he is one. I literally said that his praise for her is conditional and based on what she can do for him and it's the entire basis of it, as he said in the memos. he says that she's great BECAUSE she's "loyal and effective" and that it's BECAUSE he's her father, a genius. if you pay attention to what he's actually saying when he declares himself as her father, he sees appeal in claiming her as his daughter because it's impressive that he was able to create such a life-like program that she's like a "daughter" to him, in an impressive scientific way using code and electrons. again, it's all self centered, self praising, and conditional. I don't know what more I need to say
@@EggEmperor. "It's no use"! Sonic fans are denser than a brainless sack of slugs. Why did knuckles' character portrayal got derailed? Answer Sonic X(english dub)!
So Fans will hate me for saying this, but the only reason Eggman treats Sage differently in the US/UK/EU versions to his other Creations is due to a certain Agenda being pushed in Western Civilization. This is made extremely obvious when you compare the Japanese and Western Translations of the Games. I also want to say I adore E-101 Beta in both Forms.
Segments:
00:00 Orbot and Cubot
03:49 Metal Sonic
06:04 E Series robots
08:48 Sage
Remember when in the Sonic Boom TV series (specifically the episode titled "The Meteor") Orbot states and I quote: "We are programmed to only obey orders when we feel threatened"? Say what you will about if the TV series is canon, it still points out that threatening his minions is an intentional design choice.
I really prefer eggman having this dynamic with his robots or whatever instead of familiarity, it fits his character more. i love the typical main villain and his silly minions trope and especially with orbot and cubot, it brings out some funny interactions between them and eggman. melodramatic is not his thing :P
People want villain dads when my boy Bowser is literally right there
@@Gemidori and even there Bowser doesn't magically stop being bad just because of him having a son. (Or multiple kids? Depending on what the Koopalings are)
@@Gemidori. Sonic is the antithesis of Mario, so this feels like an intentional face slap to his fans! I might not be one, but did my homework. Did I hit the bulls' eye?
@@fourthknower9831. So basically he's a kid friendly version of ra'sh al ghoul? In that case, his iconic status is no surprise! Right?
To me the way I see Orbot and cubot are like counterparts to Tails and Knuckles as Orbot is a lot like tails well Cubot is like Knuckles but has elements of his gullible elements well Orbot has tails smarts but less of him being Loyal to Eggman like Tails is with sonic
I honestly also thought Egg was only so kind and empathetic towards Sage because she's, by some definitions, his greatest creation. She's a would-be living monument of his own egomania and pride. A colossal, but 100% self-centered achievement, like Ian said
It isn't like Bowser, who genuinely loves and cares for his kids in almost every portrayal, and even his troops in some other portrayals. If anything Robotnik is the total opposite. He has consistently smacked around and bossed around his minions since he first had them. For the others, it's legal in a twisted way. They are just robots; property, not people, no matter how much intellect or personality they have. He has the right to do whatever he wants with them because they're _not alive,_ and he's so wicked that he's willing to exploit the hell out of that if it means it'll entertain him some. But for an almost human AI, merely throttling her like the others wouldn't keep her under his thumb; he would have to be more manipulative.
I may not know the series that well compared to others, but I've seen enough to know one thing; Dr. Eggman is not really a father as much as he is a master, a commander. A *_nasty_* ass one.
Exactly! It's what makes him so fun to watch - he's a straight up unrepentant cruel tasmaster. And he enjoys it! Look at how he treats the Zeti in Lost World after all.
There might be some attachment to Sage, but it's otherwise mostly about how HE is so great that Sage has come into being. Which apparently was the intention the whole time lol.
also since he's Eggman and Sage is an AI, he can probably modify her code or memories whenever he pleases. It's not like Robotniks don't have a history of doing that - just look at what Gerald did (somehow) with Shadow.
A:"given how mutch praise Ian flynn gets nowdays, it's Best to cut him out of This discussion lest he becomes the blue blurr's version of Dave Filoni. B:"never the less, I agree, Dr eggman's ego is too large to allow anyone inside his heart, with the only concerns regarding them never extending beyond usefulness in the next scheme he's hatching! Correct?
So it’s like an inversion of Cell’s thoughts on Dr Gero, where instead of ‘he must be a genius because he created me,’ it’s more like ‘she must be special because I created her and she isn’t an immediate disappointment?’
I can't wait for Eggman to use Sage for his own nefarious schemes
Though it is inevitable, he does seem to really care about her. So I can see him bonding with her and working with her. I just can’t wait to see Sage interacting with her brothers
He has shown that most of his “care” to his robots goes to metal, and all of his real love and care goes sage. But after all his failures, and sentient failures at that (Neo, or/cubot, gamma, heavies), he’s probably begun feeling lonely, since his only currently known family (Maria, Gerald), are canonically dead.
It’s probably gotta be hell living with 2 loud idiots, one spewing nothing out his mouth, another one who can’t talk and walks really loud, while you also have to remember he tried to kill you, knowing you built several that either rebelled against you (a.d.a.m, Gemerl), joined the other side (emerl), or have gone missing altogether. (Mecha sonic, m. knux, sigma)
I guess you could think of orbit and cubot more as annoying nephews.
Athough their stupidity, annoyingness and not being “evil” would seem to be some kind of malfunction, or mistake on his part, stated in an egg memo.
I’m not even gonna talk about scratch and grounder..
That’s 10 failed sentient robots, and I’m sure there’s more.
There's no canonical evidence that he's actually lonely and this video emphasizes that he's still very abusive towards his robots who are now supposed to be his "children" since he went along with Sage's suggestion of them being like her brothers.
In fact, with the way Eggman canonically treats Metal in the actual game canon, I'd say Metal has good reason to betray Eggman in the sense that Eggman has been very neglectful towards him with the amount of times he abandons and punishes him, as I show in the video.
A lot of those examples of sentient robots you brought up also aren't canon to the games, so they're not part of the question here or set a canon example of how he really feels and treats his creations.
I'm not a fan of going off speculation without game canon basis on the subject of game canon events and interactions. Nothing in the games suggests that Eggman is actually lonely, and with what we've seen in the games and heard from Ian Flynn on the subject of his writing for Sage in the game, Eggman's "love" for his creations is by his own very shallow, self-centered, self praising perspective, which is very accurate for his character and actually adds up with everything we know prior.
Which I think is much better than a massive shift of character out of nowhere, or then suddenly attempting to say he's lonely and just wants love for us to sympathize with him, even though he's a terrible person and his real evil motives are far from just wanting love and family.
funnily enough, the writers of sonic boom have confirmed THAT version of eggman sees them as his only real friends... but he'd never admit it. and still treats them terribly
that's what makes it even funnier that people try to insist he's genuinely caring and a good father to them in the games. because even with Boom Eggman who did refer to them as family and stuff, he treated them terribly. so even if game Eggman had seen then as family back then, though he clearly didn't, he still wouldn't have been any better to them. which is why there's no chance he's suddenly going to become nicer to them just because he's entertained the idea of them being Sage's brothers lol
@@EggEmperor maybe with a LOT of time and reflection, but right away? no.... i imagine she's going to treat them better though. and they already treat each other quite well... his machines have some very interesting relationships, and a lot of humanity.
You know, I didn’t originally really think of it this way. He definitely ain’t the worst father in all of gaming, but you do make a lot of good points.
The reason Eggman likes Sage is because she's useful and boosts his own ego by being his creation. He's not a wholesome dad. If anything, Sage being a child plays to his facilitate his worst traits. Sage as a character is constantly looking for praise and validation from Eggman, a narcissistic, self-centered character. He doesn't care about her, he cares about the adoration he gets from her, and how useful she is to him. Everyone can make their wholesome Eggdad comics and fanart, but please do not forget who Dr. Eggman actually is as a character.
you have cleary not seen the ending.
Did you even beat the game??
@@larrygamage3001 Yes.
@@l3ossTweed Correction* Did you watch eggman's final cutscene?
@@larrygamage3001 Yes. He can "care" about Sage in the way of her being an extension of himself.
Yeah, there's definitely more of an emphasis on the word MY of MY daughter than daughter when it comes to Eggman and SAGE.
Not to mention if SAGE does stick around she'll have to fight against the heroes regardless of how fond he is of SAGE.
But even if she does fail he will treat her like his daughter
@@manosdaskalakis4452 yes, because daughters historically are treated well by all fathers :P
Everything Eggman does or says HAS to be taken into account along with the fact that he's a megalomanical mad scientist who likes building dangerous amusement parks for fun.
in character Eggman will do whatever he thinks will keep Sage working hard, and if she starts failing him then we've already seen how he reacts to that. It's in the video after all.
Are you people forgetting that he straight up called her his daughter three times, ecen defying death for her. Smh
@@powervidsful Eggman brought back a version of Sage. we don't now if it's the same one from th end of the game.
Putting aside the fact Sage, as an AI, can't quite die because Eggman could just restore previous versions of her at will, thin about what type of person he is and how he views the world.
He likes something as long as he gets some gain or value out of it. And Sage in the narrative is something he considers very useful indeed, and unlike other creations gets destroyed saving HIM.
But he's Eggman, and Sage has been messing around with the Ancient neural network thing. So he just yoinks a back up of her out because he'll be damned if he lets one of his most useful creations be wasted on a bitch ass eldritch space rock.
Like I said, what is heartwarming for someone else becomes sinister when you remember who Eggman IS - an entitled manchild with the ego 5x Jupiter's size and the ability to back it up. He doesn't bother acknowledging the sacrifice Frontiers!Sage makes, he just gets another one that may or may not be the same as the one that blew up and keeps trucking. He needs an assistant in cataloging all of Starfall's secrets for himself after all.
Or sega could just remake adventures 1 and 2 and start the timeline a new. This time with more spit and polish like Josh Keaton being the Sonic Roger Craig Smith wished to and Mark Hamil as eggman!
I was never fond of the idea of Dr. Eggman suddenly being a father figure ever since Frontiers. especially with the whole metal and eggman in a father son realtionship. i knew it wasn't healthy but this video helped with futher evidence to my idea. i thank you for that
Imagine if this included boom, it would be over half an hour
This is exactly the point I've been making since Frontiers' day 2: Why would Eggman abuse and belittle Orbot and Cubot every day but act fatherly twoards SAGE? Precedent would have him lash out on their first interaction or something.
@Charmy The Charizard Because if you play Sonic Games during the 2010s, Sonic Frontiers, or read its prologue from the IDW comics, You might know that Eggman is aware that Orbot and Cubot are useless. and in Sonic Frontiers, he did said that sage will be a refreshing change of pace from them meaning he is planning on replacing them. He need to take time to program life-like personalities into minions and all it does is frustrates him, And the true point of reason as to why he abuse and belittle Orbot and Cubot and act fatherly towards Sage & (sometimes) Metal Sonic? It is because all he wanted for once -- just once! -- was for his creations to fill him and his ego with pride, NOT REGRET! Which kind of make sense to me because "Breathes"
Orbot & Cubot are the worst henchmen/assistants/lackeys Dr. Eggman can possibly have, because all they do is complain, insult, undermine, & worse of all make bad jokes which is kind of antithetical to his goals & himself if you think about it.
Even If you compare to them to Sage or his past robotic henchmen trio like Scratch, Grounder & Coconuts from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, & Decoe, Bocoe & Bokkun from Sonic X, They've look like wimps. And They're; Unlike Orbot and Cubot, not as redundant and annoying as these Shape Bots are right now. They are more funny & sympathetic than them, & They're more intimidating than them too. Not only do they succeeded at being comedic relief; They evolved from it, & outside of that they gave everything that have to offer. Because with them, they also prove to Eggman that (due to his ego) they can be a very useful & competent unit of robotic henchmen that his empire has to serve & offer to help of his evil plan/goals of destroying sonic and his friends, & achieving world domination
(1). Scratch, Grounder, & Coconuts from AOSTH, They are not only built to be Eggman's Henchmen, there also built to be his new group of elite robots called: The super special sonic search & smash squad in his scheme to capture & finally get rid of sonic the hedgehog only for them to fail miserably. They also have cool looking abilities, such Scratch having the ability to peck, his neck being telescopically expandable & retractable, Scissor Fingers, Etc. Grounder having the ability to his drills for digging underground but also uses them to switch into the gadget that he wants, even His dreads can be turned into rocket engines to increase his speed, & Coconuts, who has the ability to throw coconut bombs, He's also good at setting traps, a prehensile tail, & like any other ability monkeys would have: acrobatic skills. Despite not being part of the squad, in some episodes he can be quite of useful member when working alongside Eggman, Scratch, & Grounder. Unlike Orbot and Cubot where in sonic colors they weld a laser gun & a butterfly net to catch and hunt down the wisps, A LASER GUN & BUTTERFLY NET! HOW UTTERLY PATHETIC & LAUGHABLE LAME IS THAT?
(2). Decoe, Bocoe & Bokkun from Sonic X: Ever since Season 2 & 3, not only do they succeeded at being comedic relief, they also got evolved character development to the point of becoming real compentant characters, & unlike Orbot & Cubot who only are built to do data analysis & cleaning, they are built to be Eggman's Servants on the outside, but down deep on the inside, "way down inside" we know goddamn well their built for battle hence Decoe & Bocoe's cool skill ability to fuse together turning themselves into one unit such as Bokkun Beacon or Decoe Bocoe Brain Bazooka, Even Bokkun's skill ability to use explosives mostly the ones that are video message recorders in the shape of televisions, as well as having skill of having a super powerful kick that knock Black Narcissus (One of the Metarex) back to his commander's throne. A lot of fans say that they are forgettable & even if they do remembered them, They said they are a 2.0 version of Scratch, Grounder & Coconuts, But Don't You See to understand? They are so much more than that! Even though they are forgettable you have to remember that if you watch the Anime or Read the Archie Comics; You have to know that they are more than just bumbling minions, they are actually the closest thing of Dr. Eggman having friends or companions, There's a sense of comradery in these four. Kind of like how Metal Sonic & Sage - the most effective robot & AI duo Eggman has ever created and it is closest thing of him having a son & daughter, I mean; why do ya think he say "That's my boy" to Metal Sonic in the IDW comics & "Be careful, dear daughter!" or "That's My Girl!" to Sage in Sonic Frontiers.
Speaking of Metal Sonic, Let talk about the voice chip gimmick that Cubot has. The only effective solution to sort out & take care of the voice chip problem is: To take out the gosh darn voice chip. he doesn't need to speak, 99% of Eggman's machines don't take & they function just fine. Metal Sonic "like i said Before" is the most effective robot he has ever created and He only speaks in his Neo form, which only exists for one game: ("That being Sonic Heroes"). And it wasn't until he started talking that he decided to betray Eggman. Which, one would think, is a good stinking incentive to never give any of his creations the ability to speak! "Okay" Writers of SEGA & Sonic Team in the 2010s let me tell you something! Give me one good reason why giving Cubot, of all of his robots, speech capabilities was good thing for Eggman? Go on, Try getting that pig to fly. I'll wait. EXACTLY!
We all know Dr. Eggman of having a massive ego, he would create beings to stroke that ego, not trod all over it. This makes absolutely no sense.
Here's my rebuttal:
(1) they fail at being funny, therefore they have failed the sole purpose of their existence, so if you try defending them you made the problem even worse.
(2) You can't sacrifice logic & reason just in order for comedic characters to exist, THAT IS INSANELY BAD WRITING!
He wouldn't intentionally make these robots behave like this & If he accidently did, He would immediately fix so they are more loyal, less annoying, & more competent. & if he didn't fix them it would be for a very good reason, there would be some major event or obstacle keeping them from accessing tools to fix his robots. There has to be some reason why Orbot & Cubot are the way they are & Eggman isn't fixing them, but never get one inkling of a reason. The fact Pontaff "the writers" forced him to have these idiotic floating shapes is SO character breaking that it induces nausea & aneurysm everytime i see them.
Orbot and Cubot are pathetic & obnoxiously annoying cowards that are way worse than
BubbleMan.Exe - the worst NetNavi from Mega Man Battle Network 3!
Because Orbot and Cubot are utterly useless. Sage isn’t. He’s projecting his own ego and success on Sage.
@@mediakira6621 Yes! That's Why I love Sage just as much as Dr. Eggman does. And That's Why I Hate Orbot & Cubot just as much as Dr. Eggman does.
Concise and to the point, very well done video! I appreciate it when there is evidence for a point presented clearly and without nonsense, unlike most fan theory content on UA-cam. Goes to show you made this because you wanted to, not just to grab some quick advertiser cash. Signing the adoption papers for Metal as I'm writing this!
Looking back with Eggmans robots I Now see theme more as dark reflections of Sonic and his friends as Metal is meant to show what Sonic would become had he been made into a Machine and turn heartless' Orbot and cubot are Tails and Knuckles but with there roles and colors swap The E series being sonic friends as counterparts to theme due to there colors and how Eggman treats theme and Saga being Tails as the cloest thing to Eggman much like Sonic is with Tails also Belle being Omega due to both of theme being made by Eggman and view nothing more than rejects
3:50 | Classic Eggman's point of view.
Wow! This was a PERFECT compilation of Eggman’s incredibly abusive nature toward his creations. He’s a very selfish and cruel man. He does have glimpses of humanity, meaning that he admires his grandfather and has some inferiority complex. One of the Egg Memos shows that he is jealous of Maria getting all the attention even after she died. He isn’t Andross (who is a complete monster) but he’s definitely not a role model parent.
Looking back with Orbot and cubot it easily hinting the reason why Eggman made theme was after seeing Sonic friends stop metal in the events of Sonic heroes might've been inspired to make his own tails and Knuckles and the reason why in Unleased there was a white orbot showing it was a Prototype and after Making Orbot Eggman made Cubot as a upgrade and why his voice chip was acting him was due to him being out of the woodwork and Him saying to theme he made theme in his freetime was him telling the truth but not admitting he saw theme as his own Tails and Knuckles
Bowser: I have 8 kids and even I treat ALL of them with respect
Eggman: and still they failed miserably
@@eljereaumartiena747 Bowser: So did Metal Sonic and most of the baddies you hire mostly betray you like Chaos, Metal Sonic, Deadly Six, Dark Gaia, and Shadow turned good.
@@BlueJourney2719 eggman: better betrayed than be posessed by a hag and whatever that thing was that make you look cool like a dragon to be saved by mi worst enemy
@@BlueJourney2719 eggman: metal is different than those ingrates his software i installed in makes him impossible to change he only wants conquest like me
@@eljereaumartiena747 Bowser: At least I got my own rocket launcher and kicked the crap out of Cursa in the next game and got my own reality warping flower that isn't said to be illusions and isn't inconsistent.
And that's only covering the games. Eggman has quite a dozen children overall and he treated them like crap one way or another: Robotnik Jr, Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, Heavy and Bomb from Knuckles Chaotix, Fleetway comics Metamorphia(though his right hand man Grimer is more logical since he built her, she still craved for Eggman's appreciation), ART from Sonic Underground, Mecha Robotnik and A.D.A.M from Archie comics, Decoe, Bocoe and sometimes Bokkun from Sonic X and IDW Belle.
I grew up with Sonic Underground but the name ART doesn't ring a bell, who's that?
@@erikbihari3625 He is Eggman's self-learning robot who can grow, upgrade and regenerate by absorbing metal from "The Art of Destruction" episode.
@@ashesGeek. I Was only able to see the show til the flying fortress episode(because kidsco the channel wich had it go"under"for some reason afterwards)!
@@erikbihari3625 Ah, fellow Kids Co Sonic Underground viewer. Yeah, I totally understand you, though I wonder where are you from I'd you're OK with this question? Some episodes were not aired in my language as well
@@ashesGeek. I give you some hints, smackdabbed in the middle of Europe and one of ours is responsible for world's most famous journalism prise's name.
He definitely softens in the last game.
Now you can argue that's entirely based on Sage's usefulness to him, but he does seem to be genuinely heartbroken about her loss and does go to great lengths to bring her back.
You can argue that's not a great direction to take the character, but that's a separate argument.
But I'm going by what Ian Flynn actually said in this video, did you watch you it
I don't think that's what was happening with his character based on that and how it reflects in the memo
You can't tell how he actually looked when she died, it could've been disappointment in losing his perfect creation before he could utilize it properly
And he didn't really, he brought her back in like 15 mins later easily by typing up some shit lol
@@EggEmperor Ian Flynn can say what he wants to. But if he wants to convince me that his interpretation is accurate, he'll have to show me.
I do believe that Eggman loves Sage based on narcissism. Most parents do. They brag about their children because they came from them. That's it. There's nothing inherently deeper behind it, good or bad.
It's a time skip. We don't know how long went by before he found her again. The fact that he made an effort shows he cared about her.
Sage is the favored child. The one who surpassed her program to become something more advanced.
Most importantly he listens to her, something he's never done before with any of his creations.
He becomes Sonic's ally and lets her go try to save the world, all at her emotional prompting.
You can argue that it's not the direction to take Eggman in. You may be right. But it is the direction the game leaves us with.
When Eggman zapped Metal back to life in Sonic 4, his demand was to head to Mad Gear, which was apparently made for upgrading Metal Sonic since the defunct promotional website specifically asked about its existence in its tease of Episode Metal.
Although I do enjoy eggmans reactions to orbot and cubot's shenanigans, I do wish he treated them a bit nicer
EggDad be like: Sage is Best Child! Better than All of My Robots.
I mean really, Eggman only be nice to Sage.
I've always assumed that he makes his immideate vicinity of robots idiots so that they don't rise against them, like gamma, omega and metal sonic in certain cases
We don't talk about SA-55
SASS
Should've saved this for Father's Day this year, dude. 😏
lol yeah it would've been a great time but I was really eager to get this out asap, been itching to make it for a while! so Eggman can get his worst dad award early this year. XD
@@EggEmperor. Speaking of wich, what would you think if firelord ozai and prince zuko voiced eggman and knuckles respectively? Latter could've used earlier!
@@EggEmperorThere are dads even worse than eggman but he definitely does well to achieve his low ranking on the worst to best list.
I feel like he might be nicer now considering that he has realized his emotions
where is he being way nicer? his dynamic with Sage is still based purely on selfishness and egotism and what she can do for him, he's literally constantly talking about how he wished he could carry out his evil plans and plotting and scheming throughout the base game in the Egg Memos and in The Final Horizon in his island convo dialogue, he still talks about how much he hates Sonic despite recognizing and respecting his abilities, still laughed and expressed glee towards Sonic dying from Cyber Corruption, and only cares about saving the world to save himself and the world he wants to conquer as Sage says for him much to his delight and otherwise absolutely despises it and you can see him express this very clearly
and that's even with the writer commentary of Flynn saying Eggman is still very much a "BAD person" and Eggman and Sage's dynamic is supposed to be "unsettling" and he came around to it "for all the wrong reasons" aside
they're portraying it in character very well right now in a way that they don't change his character at all in general, and instead strengthen and further develop the traits he already has of his evil, narcissism, and egotism.
plus in Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, there are examples of Eggman programming his robots with feelings just so he can manipulate them and also yells at Orbot and Cubot the same as ever. and that's much better and I character
he still only praises Sage for what she can do for him and still treats his inferior creations badly. those are the terms for Eggman having a parental dynamic with his creations and that's way better than him genuinely becoming a nicer person in any way.
The way i see Orbot and cubot are pretty much his Tails and Knuckles as it hinted that after the events of Sonic heroes Eggman might've been inspired By sonic and his friends working together so Wanted to built his own teammates as with Unleased The orbot we saw in that game was a early prototype and after Unleased finally Made Orbot and when Colors finally came built Cubot but due to his faulty voice chip hinting he was in early stages
I know Belle is not canon to the games. But let's not forget how he treated her either.
The way I do see Belle and Sage are like the two kids to the one bad parent as when Belle with Eggman we see how Eggman see Belle nothing more than just a Robot than the child his old persona viewed her as but when Sage is with Eggman this is Eggman feeling he finally has someone he loves and admires even know it for his own ego something a Bad parent do with one child they saw as there own self image
If we're going to discuss how Eggman treated Emerl, then we can't forget Gemerl in Sonic Advance 3 who took revenge on Eggman when he got the seven chaos emeralds.
Regarding Shadow, he did eventually tell him the truth even if he would have no benefit whatsoever. So there's this at last
Eggman only did that when he was completely near death and probably wanted to give Shadow that last bit of desperate motivation for Shadow to defeat Devil Doom and save him and the world he wants to rules.
Also in Expert Mode, he asks Shadow if he's upset with him for something, referring to the whole ordeal, then shrugs and laughs it off like an asshole lol. He wasn't sorry about the abusive gaslighting at all and the only time he admitted it was after it'd failed and he was also near death.
Really says a lot about how much of a selfish jerk he is, how he'll lie and use someone and then only admit in times of desperation and near death, then carelessly brushing it off after.
@@EggEmperor that first part is speculation though. I've always read that as him admitting the truth as he knew he would die and thus would have nothing to lose (Eggman does say it's his "last chance" to tell him the truth, so he was likely fully expecting to die). Even in this case, he would have nothing to gain from it.
@@ElisatheNerd Yours is just as much speculation for that part though. I think him waiting until the absolute last second when death seemed likely, so late into the fight that you won't even hear it in the average time it takes to beat, points to an act of desperation that can support my idea. Especially combining it with how he acts after. With that I see it as anything but him caring and regretting it, considering his attitude in Expert Mode shows the exact opposite.
@@EggEmperor He does say it's his "last chance to tell it", which implies he was fully expecting to die but still wanted for Shadow to know
To be perfectly honest, I think Eggman can still remain an intimidating villain and still treat some of his other robotic units harshly even if he does have this new fatherly bond with Sage. Other villains in media have similar situations and still remain as intimating as ever even if they have a soft spot for a select few people.
Well he treats these guys better than scratch and grounder and they act like he is their dad which makes it worse
And here it explains how Dr. Eggman's villan friend from Nintendo Bowser is actually a good father!
ua-cam.com/video/O9dC2oJeX2M/v-deo.html
I'm interested in seeing how Belle the Tinkerer and Sage will interact.
Egg emperor, since blue blurr's block busters bank, I dug. And realised knuckles' portrayal by Sonic X tainted his reputation simularly to what superfriends did with aquaman! Any thoughts?
00:59 I'm literally crying because I had seen Eggman hitting Orbot and Cubot and I had laughed, but now that I saw that Orbot was scared of Eggman because of that I'm crying because I wasn't supposed to laugh/srs
I don't think anybody is crazy enough to claim Eggman was a good father figure for any of his creations. But the entire point of Frontiers depiction of him is that he is changing.
You can hold his past against him of course, but everyone is capable of change. Sage is in a unique position where she really got under his skin unlike any other of his creations.
And yes, I think he is not quite there yet. In the end he was willing to sacrifice her in the original Frontiers ending, self-prservation clearly trumps his affection for her. But I can totally see a future story where Eggman has to choose between his goal and saving Sage and he will choose the latter.
@@yoursonisold8743 Sorry but ain't nobody or anything ever going to make the biggest most egotistical narcissist on the planet choose someone else over himself and his selfish goals. Even Frontiers proved that and it won't change
His entire value of Sage is based on his self centeredness and ego and benefit in the first place and he let her sacrifice herself for him and get into danger multiple times. A scene like that could never happen
People are severely downplaying his narcissism as if his entire motives with his desire to conquer the world and everything else he does isn't fueled solely by it
@@EggEmperor Nah, I think you are completely underselling how different Eggman's behaviour with Sage is. And change is a process, not a flip to switch.
You showed in this video how Eggman would immediately abandon Metal if he isnt useful, but I can absolutley not see Eggman do this with Sage.
Remember that in Frontiers he saw no other way to survive than to let her sacrifice herself. If his life isn't on the line it seems much more likely that he would give her priority over any scheme he is currently running. After all he has lost so many times, but Sage is unique.
I get it, you prefer evil callous Eggman, but change is inevitable and necessary for a franchise that goes into the decades.
9:10 he still threw out Emerl once he was able to make replicas and couldn't get the original to work
6:04 I think it's to promote cooperation (and he failed that miserably)
As they seem Uber competitive and know that if they fail they get killed
I just want to say a some things
Eggman's warming up to the family dynamic, and in Frontiers is whenever he accepted it, if you want proof just read IDW, Eggman treated Orbot, Cubot, and Metal Sonic way better than he did in any of the games, and even referred to himself as Metal's father a few times, in Frontiers you can literally hear him fully accepting the family dynamic fully in the Egg Memos, then we get to TMOSTH and probably just other games after Frontiers in general, where he fully accepted it.
Also, with the Shadow and Emeral thing, it seems like after what was revealed about Gerald in SA2, Eggman just hated everything about his family, we can see some of that anger in the part of Egg Memo 17 that you skipped over, at this point I don't think he wants anything to do with Shadow, and Emeral he just saw as a means to an end.
Another reason Eggman treats Shadow horribly could be because of Shadow's connection to Maria, Shadow does the exact same thing Eggman's parents, grandparents, aunt, and unlce did to him.
One last thing: You used Lego Dimensions, to make your point.
"If you want proof" **cites IDW** at least I actually used game examples only.
The points in this video still stand. Eggman's dynamic with Sage is based purely on what she can do for him and how he can take pride in her, it's egotistical and selfish on his side as Flynn explained. This doesn't change at all throughout the main story or the Final Horizon at all. Yes, he sees Sage as his daughter, I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm saying these are the reasons why and that it isn't genuinely wholesome, selfless, caring, and pure on his side. It's very conditional and we see this in the story multiple times and it's explained very clearly by Eggman in the memos and Ian Flynn as the writer. Also Murder of Sonic literally proves he takes advantage of his creations by programming them with feelings to give them a bigger drive to get work done, and it has him yelling at Orbot and Cubot as much as ever. It literally just gave me more evidence.
He doesn't hate Gerald, he still brags about being related to him in SA2, Shadow, and TailsTube. He doesn't feel "anger" towards *everything* about his family. The memo about Maria just shows how selfish and entitled Eggman is as he was acting bratty and entitled towards the attention Maria got, not caring that it was because she was a kind 12 year old girl with a terminal illness. It shows his low empathy and ego in his resentment towards her for it. And the comparison of Sage to her could imply that he thinks that Sage being an impression creation that could be similar to Maria in ways, means he could finally get some of that attention and bask in the praise and attention as her genius creator.
He was the one that manipulated and gaslit Shadow into trying to get him to join his side so he could take advantage and use him to do his dirty work. If he could do so successfully and permanently then he would as he clearly feels entitled to owning and using Shadow just because he was created by his grandfather. He doesn't hate Shadow because he was created by him, instead he wishes he could keep and use him because *his* grandfather created him, that's the exact opposite. He only hates Shadow because he won't obey him and tries to stop him and get in his way instead. Saying it's because of Maria or something is baseless because that was *years* before they decided on this tidbit of info in the memos.
Using Lego Dimensions doesn't make my entire point invalid. Most of my evidence is from the main game titles. The point of that being there is because I was getting *all* the evidence from every game out at the time, regardless of status in canon, but the real meat of it is all canon. The Dimensions stuff is just a bonus, along with other games that aren't that canon like Runners. But it still proves an ongoing theme in all kinds of official games, for him to treat his creations terribly. And that's still saying a lot about his character as a result. It's better to use any and all game examples than a comic that has contradicted the games many times in many different ways.
@@EggEmperor Wow, all you've just proven to me is you didn't actually pay attention to the things I was saying, for some reason don't think IDW is canon, and don't deserve the title "EggEmporer"
@@wamalam lmfao what. I replied to every point you brought up, how is that not paying attention :P
IDW is contradictory af. Flynn himself said "as long as there's no contradictions we're good [for it to be canon]" and yet there are *tons.* so I will disregard it.
I deserve the title Egg Emperor more than anyone lol. I like to "show you what real evil is", the tagline of the boss it's referencing hehe
I love evil Eggman and he's going to remain evil and egotistical and it's going to keep affecting the dynamic he has with his creations. :)
@@EggEmperor you replied to every point, but the only points you actually succeeded in proving wrong, with actual facts, were the exaggerations I did.
Really? Contradictions, how so? Because I can't see anymore than Sonic Prime, which is also confirmed to be canon.
Also, really? You prefer Eggman to not have any humanity and just be pure evil? Honestly, that's just lame
@@wamalam lol what. yeah everything you said was an exaggeration and I proved it
I don't care to list all the contradictions as many don't involve Eggman and that isn't my level of expertise. but multiple people have covered them. but for example, Eggman saying he doesn't think of himself as evil despite referring to himself, his creations, and his actions as *evil* multiple times throughout the games. and there's tons more that don't involve Eggman
also where did I say that. I just said Eggman doesn't have a good soft side. he's never done anything genuinely nice and selfless and it's always for selfish egotistical self serving reasons. Sage is literally just another example of it
Eggman has humanity already. it shows in him being evil. being a terrible person who is egotistical and selfish is very human. it represents the bad parts and what greed, narcissism, and lust for power can do to a person. and every look into his personal thoughts and feelings, no matter how selfish and egotistical and evil he's being in them, is also humanizing him by reminding people he's a human with thoughts and feelings too.
making him an uwu poor baby tragic backstory or wholesome father is a lame and cheap way of "humanizing" him when there are far more interesting complex ways. humanizing a character doesn't always have to be through a way that's morally correct. terrible people are human too.
I'm not gonna dispute.
But Frontier's does age the cast.
Eggman could have grown too, but thats just a idea.
he can't just suddenly become a different person because time skipped and we didn't see the change or development happen or be explained at all, that'd be bad writing. and they never said they aged them up, they just removed the ages from the bio without explaining why and that could mean anything. also it wouldn't suddenly erase or excuse all the bad things Eggman has done, so even if that had happened then all of this would still apply.
@Egg Emperor Hey, I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just playing a little devil's advocate.
Your good man.
alright well there'd be nothing to play devil's advocate for other than the fandom's misinterpretation because everything in this video and the Eggman and Sage dynamic not being as wholesome as everyone acts like it is is actually canon fact lol :P
13:04 Wow, I'm kinda surprised because this is a very rare act of stupidity for Ian. I get that the point of this video is to bring up all the times Eggman has demonstrated he's awful to his creations, but it sort of ignores all the times he's shown he genuinely DOES care about his creations, like with Metal, Orbot and Cubot, yes he calls them useless every now and then, but if really believed that, why keep them around? With Metal, you could argue it's because he's a powerful robot who has shown better results than any of Eggman's other creations, but what about Orbot and Cubot? If they're really as useless and annoying as he says, why not get rid of them? And to be fair with Gemerl, he didn't actually know much about how he was created, and he definitely didn't know about his soul being based on Maria, same with Shadow. But more importantly than all of that, even if Eggman was an absolutely horrible father before, this could've been the START, I'm sure most people will agree that Eggman and Sage's bond in Frontiers is one of the best parts of it and it doesn't actually come from nowhere, in the IDW comics (which, I should point out, were also written by Ian Flynn), Eggman HAS shown a bit more care for his creations, mainly due to the whole Mr Tinker situation, Sonic even pushes him several times to be more like that, to be a better person because he now knows it IS possible. The reforming Eggman arc was right there and ready to go, it could've been a great part of the next few games and finally give these characters the development they need to be better characters, and the worst part is, Ian Flynn is the one who set it all up, with both the comics and Sonic Frontiers, he could've done something really good with the character... and instead he just says "Nah, Eggman's just selfish". It's just stupid, even more so because he said this AFTER the game came out and everyone had already gotten the opposite impression and LIKED it, he threw away a great story for, what sounds like, a joke, that's very disappointing.
What is there to even ignore? Eggman treats his creations like shit constantly with constant verbal and physical abuse as the video shows. He's not nice to them, you couldn't make a video compilation like this of him because there wouldn't be anything to compile.
With how he's constantly berating and actually has abandoned them once, it'd make more sense if he only keeps them around because they at least serve their purpose as his assistants. While it gets too much for him with his temper, he could want the dynamic because he feels power in ordering and controlling them. Combatting Orbot's sass and Cubot's idiocy could make him feel superior if he succeeds in putting them down.
Regardless of whether he knew about the Maria soul thing or not, even though the information was stored on his mother computer lol, he knew about Gerald working on Emerl and creating Shadow obviously. Does it stop him from beating and manipulating Emerl and gaslighting and manipulating Shadow who both have *real* connections to his family? No. That's the point I made in the video.
"It hasn't came out of nowhere because *brings up non canon comic events*" It has came out of nowhere in the games as this video shows. And even then, how he acted in the brief rushed time as Tinker in it, a persona he only had because of amnesia, shouldn't be indicative of who he really is and choices he makes in his regular state of mind and identity as Eggman.
Eggman is never nice to his creations. He ONLY praises robots like Gamma and Metal in any amount when they do exactly what he wants and he can be pleased and take pride in himself as their creator for the success and skill and reflection of his genius. He will quickly insult, hit, or destroy them when they fail and they're all disposable. He isn't nice to them, it's always shallow and selfish as the self-centered egotist he is.
Being angry that it's not what you wanted to be doesn't mean it's bad. It makes sense for Eggman's side of the dynamic with Sage to be as shallow as Flynn described. While the signs of this should've been much bigger so people couldn't get the wrong idea of the dynamic being wholesome and pure, they are present in the game and especially the memos that everyone misinterprets.
And Eggman doesn't need to be reformed just like how Sonic doesn't need to become a villain. Eggman has been the main villain of the series for 30+ years. The core of his character is that he's an evil scientist that wants to take over the world and he wouldn't be the same person without it.
@@EggEmperor Being the main villain for 30 years is making him boring, this change was something he needed to be interesting again, alright now on to your other points.
Emerl wasn't created by Gerald, yes Gerald worked on him, but he doesn't have any actual connection to Eggman, and after Emerl is defeated by Sonic, Eggman still goes through the effort of rebuilding him as Gemerl, and when Sonic and friends save Gemerl and bring him back to their side, Eggman makes no attempt to change that, he just lets Gemerl go. Shadow is a lot less complicated, Eggman freed Shadow and in return, Shadow betrayed him and tried to destroy him and everyone else on Earth. Despite this, when Shadow fell to Earth, EGGMAN is the one who saved him, Eggman kept him alive, Eggman made sure he was safe, and in the final battle of Shadow the Hedgehog, he admits to this, denying what he said earlier about who Shadow was, that's him indirectly admitting what he said was wrong, quote from the game: "You truly are the Ultimate Lifeform my Grandfather created", Eggman DOES care about Shadow, the issue is that they stand on opposite sides, they HAVE to fight. Eggman has done good things for his Grandfather's creations, and he did those things because he cared.
The IDW comics ARE canon, they make several references to what happens in the games, the Mr Tinker situation is a result of the final battle in Forces, and Sonic even mentions Tangle BY name in Frontiers, those events ARE canon. And in the comics, there is a shot where Eggman is repairing Metal Sonic after a failed encounter with Sonic, his words aren't cruel or insulting, they're more so prideful than anything else, not in himself, but in Metal, quote from the comic: "He wouldn't know a work of art if it punched him in the face. You did punch him in the face, right?" *Metal gives a thumbs up* "That's my boy!" So the arc those comics set up is valid, again, Sonic pushes him to be more like his Mr Tinker persona because even though it was a result of his amnesia, it's still something Eggman COULD be, it's what Sonic wants him to be, and it's something Frontiers did a good job of setting him up to be.
Saying he keeps Orbot and Cubot around because they're useful assistants is dumb because they haven't done ANYTHING useful... like, at all, they annoy and insult Eggman just as much as he does them, he's never able to put them down either because Orbot's too stubborn and Cubot is too stupid, and yet he STILL keeps them around, why? Because deep down, a part of him DOES care, he isn't completely evil.
Speaking of which, Eggman's reason for being evil has never really been clear, but Adventure 2 heavily implied it's because of how the world treated his Grandfather, quote again: "He was my hero and I wanted to be a great scientist just like him", when you think about it, Eggman has gone through a LOT, I'm not justifying what he's done, but it makes sense why he'd be stubborn when it comes to forming a family, and yet he's so willing to accept Sage as his daughter in Frontiers, playing the game, I never got the feeling he was proud of her because he was actually proud of himself, and most other people didn't get that feeling either, we felt like he genuinely cared about her, that this was him about to change.
Now on to Ian Flynn, the issue isn't "I don't like what he's doing, so it's bad", the issue is what he's doing goes against everything he's already done, the IDW comics show Eggman CAN be a good person, Frontiers gave the impression that Eggman cared about Sage and was growing to be a better person, and after all that, Ian Flynn just randomly remarks in an interview "Nah, he's still selfish", the fact that he's laughing when he says this shows how little thought he put into it, he thinks it's a funny joke but its just stupid and invalidates everything that happens between Eggman and Sage in Frontiers and makes no sense, think about it, if Eggman was really proud of himself for creating life, that he saw Sage as more of an arrogant accomplishment (which already makes little sense since he's done it before), why would he be upset when she dies? He tells her he understands, he tells her to be careful, and when she doesn't come back, he's clearly hurt, so much so that he accesses the Ancients technology for the SOLE purpose of bringing her back, and when HE does that, when HE revives her, when HE makes this great accomplishment, what's his first words? "That's my girl." He showed pride for HER for HIS accomplishment. The issue is that Ian had a great story ready, one HE set up with how he's written these characters, one people actually liked, and then just casually throws it away in a God damn podcast, he doesn't bring it up in the game, he doesn't put it in a comic, he doesn't put any effort into establishing this part of Eggman's character, a part that contradicts what we've seen in Frontiers, he just says it because he thinks it's a funny joke, it's not funny, it's stupid and disappointing.
Look, I don't want to argue with you because this is a good video, and you do make good points when it comes to the E - Series, and I'm not denying that Eggman was horrible to his creations BEFORE Frontiers, my point was Frontiers could've been the START of an arc he desperately needs, and one people would've enjoyed, but Ian has thrown it away for the sake of a 30 second joke in a random podcast and I absolutely hate it.
Edit: Oh, and no one misinterprets those memos, we got the right idea, Flynn just threw it away.
@Nathan Evans
Being a hero for 30+ years makes Sonic boring. See how silly that sounds? That's purely opinion and just because you think it's boring doesn't mean it is. A ton of entertainment and potential is in Eggman being an evil villain and tons of his best moments in the series are based around him doing evil, and the reason so many huge game stories even happen at all is because Eggman is evil and has a new scheme, it's a huge crucial important part of his character.
Emerl has connection in being worked on by his grandfather and idol and for having the soul of Maria. This doesn't cause him to be uncharacteristically sentimental, which is the point I'm making. After beating and throwing Emerl out, he tries to get him back only because he recognizes his power can indeed be useful in the way he wants- which is why he tries to manipulate him into capturing and using him again. But that fails, so Gemerl happens because of course he wouldn't want to let that potential go if he can take advantage of it. That isn't a nice thing to do.
Eggman freed Shadow only so he could use him in his own selfish goals of taking over the world. And his interactions with Shadow are anything but wholesome and caring wtf, he went and had Shadow saved after SA2 just to keep him to himself and use him to make a Shadow android army and then when he escaped, he tried to take advantage of his amnesia and gaslight and manipulate him into doing his selfish dirty work. He only admits to his lie when they're all at the risk of death as it would serve as good motivation for him to defeat Devil Doom. Also, in the expert mode that takes place after, Eggman acknowledges that Shadow seems upset with him for it and shrugs it off carelessly, not caring that he caused him more trouble and pain in the struggles of his amnesia. Eggman was abusive towards Shadow, that isn't wholesome and caring and nice.
IDW ISN'T canon to the games at all. It's not the official word that it's canon in the absolute slightest. The games events are supposed to be canon to the comics but not the other way around. There are tons of contradictions and there's no way they'd suddenly make it canon and confuse everyone that isn't interested in random comics and only the games and then wonder who all these characters are and when these comic exclusive events happened. Just like referencing Sticks can't possibly make Boom canon, referencing Tangle doesn't make IDW canon. It just means they could potentially end up making game canon versions of the characters exist but that wouldn't suddenly make all the comics canon. So everything comic related you try to use to say that game Eggman is a good dad is invalid.
Orbot and Cubot still serve their assistant duties. We see them reporting to him and assisting him with his tech. They are bumbling but are ultimately loyal enough that they still serve him and don't try to betray. And that's still better than how other creations of his have betrayed him, so it makes sense for him to keep them around for that reason. And with the way he's just constantly yelling at them and smacking them around and even abandoning them in space, he clearly doesn't actually care about them lol
SA2 did not imply that Gerald was Eggman's motive for evil at all. He isn't trying to fulfill his grandfather's wishes or avenge him or anything at all, he literally talks about wanting to build a legacy of HIS OWN in that specific game. Making an empire and deadly theme parks where he's in control of everything and hailed as a ruler doesn't honor or avenge his grandfather in any way. He is an egomaniac and his goals are nothing be selfish. Eggman also wasn't confirmed to have admired Gerald beyond an academic level of science instead of good deeds with the way he talks about him.
In Frontiers the only reason he started warming up to Sage was for "all the wrong reasons" as Ian Flynn himself put it. In a self centered way where it's still all about him and what she can do for him. He only praises her when she does what he wants her to and protect him, which is supposed to be her purpose. Saying that if he created life she would be "loyal and efficient" because "her dad is a genius" literally proves in the memo that he's only praising her in an extremely shallow self-centered way. Nobody that's a good parent says weird shit like that about their kids, Flynn was right to call it unsettling. What he said doesn't contradict it, he just could've done with making it especially clear so you couldn't interpret it wrong because you have.
Flynn is the writer and knows what he's talking about. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true.
@@nathanevans1382 IDW is not canon and Sage is self-overrated.
@@EggEmperor Flynn still made Eggman look soft.
I feel like Eggman DOES have a secret good side, but I feel like Frontiers makes it a little too extreme and its not much of a good side he has. I feel like the best portrayals of his good side and entire personality were in SA2 and Lost World
I'm not sure what in those games are signs of a good side, since in SA2 he only speaks of admiring Gerald as being a great scientist instead of good person, and clearly doesn't really care about the safety of other people on the planet since he'd continue causing global destruction/hurting/trying to kill people after.
And the entirety of Lost World is Eggman tricking Sonic and Tails into helping him deal with the Deadly Six and get back in control of his machine to stab them in the back after, so he was just using them all along and they need to be alive to do that.
@@EggEmperor Yeah, I kinda didn't think too much while writing this comment but still you gotta admit Eggman is kinda too humane in Frontiers
@@bluekel615 yeah definitely, he's weirdly calm and lacking the usual charisma and energy that gives him his charm and essence. it was only there for a bit during his amused reactions to Sonic's suffering and a few Egg Memos but missing most of the time. really odd direction and I hope it's just a one-off.
@@EggEmperor Yeah, hopefully
@@EggEmperor. First and foremost, I'm not a Sonic fan, but since blue blurr's block busters, did my digging and couldn't help but notice simularities with Sonic Omens! Someday look into it?
Well at least to me he’s an actual father to a human even though she’s mostly ai. Wait doesn’t that make her non binary?
I hate Orbot and Cubot so much, I hope they will be destroyed or get replaced by Sage. They have never done anything to help Eggman and they mock him in most games. Eggman is funny yes, but he is also is dangerous as shown in the adventure games, it's a fine balance between seriousness and humour but Orbot and Cubot keep breaking that. It dosen't make sense why Eggman puts up with them when they clearly don't help him. They aren't even funny like Scratch and Grounder is, they are just annoying. I actually laughed aloud in spite when Eggman smacks Orbot out of the way in the Metropolis cutscene.
5:29
I mostly agree EXCEPT
Eggman deep down DOES care about Orbot and Cubot. He keeps them around despite how much they annoy them and had no reason to save them in lost world.
He also cares about Sage and you made a mistake including her in the video simple as that.
No he doesn't, they've never outwardly implied that. Therefore, my theory is just as much as speculation but I find it much more realistic keeps them around purely to abuse them and feel superior to them. After all, the early version of Orbot was named "SA-55" (sass), so it would make sense if Eggman specifically made them so he could bark back at him and hit him when he's angry, and order him around so he can feel superior and in control of something. Plus they're his assistants and he has use to them in that way, they still always do what they're meant to in the end if he hits them enough. That doesn't mean he cares about them at all.
And no, it wasn't a mistake to put Sage in the video. Listen to what Ian Flynn said. His pride in her is selfish and his praise in her is extremely conditional as he yells at her and thumps things one minute when she doesn't do exactly what he wants in the way he wants it and when she does, he praises her- and takes pride again as her creator in the memos, saying he specifically sees worth in her BECAUSE she's *"loyal and efficient."* so I don't see that as genuinely wholesome and sweet and caring about her as a person. plus he still let her go and sacrifice herself to save his ass and the world he wants to rule and barely cared about her death as it seemed he was disappointed for a sec like "fuck I lost her already before I could even use her to her full potential" but then looked up in determination when he realized he could literally just bring her back
he absolutely hates Orbot and Cubot and his "love" for Sage isn't redeeming either, he's a bad father figure through and through
@@EggEmperor then why did he save Orbot and Cubot. He could have just made replacements but CHOSE to save them. And pretty much everyone agrees that he cares about Sage and people have even PRAISED Eggman and Sage’s relationship in frontiers. And why is he nice to her??? It’s not like she’ll turn on him.
@@Welcometoweirdmaggedon did you actually read my theory on why he keeps them around lol. what's the point in letting them fall in Lost World as long as they're useful to him in any amount? saves the hassle. and that's a theory just as much as you saying it's because he cares but mine seems a lot more likely with all things considered. either way, you can't tell that much for sure on the smallest second of animation that they don't even acknowledge. what about the time Eggman left them in SPACE and how it was the reason they weren't in Generations? when he abandoned them in a heartbeat to pursue his next tool in his plans because he didn't need them for a while? wow very caring XD
sorry but I don't care about what the mass majority of fandom who don't understand the dynamic at all is saying and how much they like ignoring everything that makes it interesting to turn it into sweet wholesome pure uwu content. I'm going purely by what actually happens in the game and also what Ian Flynn himself said, not what fans want and have tried to convince themselves is canon over what we see in the actual game and what the actual writer said.
he isn't even completely nice to Sage because as I said, he still yells at her when she doesn't do things his way, he's clearly viewing her accomplishments in a very selfish self aggrandizing way as he takes credit for it, and his praise is extremely conditional and self centered, he literally specifically compliments her for what she can do for him and how amazing and genius and impressive of a creator that makes him as her father. the memos + Ian Flynn's writer commentary says this word for word.
@@EggEmperor Why would eggman WANT to annoy himself? Even if it was just to feel superior to them they are basically useless so what is he controlling exactly? And I said he cares about them DEEP DOWN. As for Sage He LITERALLY CALLED HER HIS DAUGHTER. (And now to hear the counter argument)
my theory is that they're annoying because Eggman made them to be inferior to him and sass him so he could combat it and feel like he's won when he controls them or wins the argument. only problem is that because of his very short temper and how they do it beyond the amount he wants, he can get really pissed off with them. makes sense to me and is way more realistic and interesting than him secretly caring for them. they do their jobs decently enough for her satisfaction after whacking them about.
him calling Sage his daughter doesn't mean he's a good father? lol you can be a shitty dad and he is one. I literally said that his praise for her is conditional and based on what she can do for him and it's the entire basis of it, as he said in the memos. he says that she's great BECAUSE she's "loyal and effective" and that it's BECAUSE he's her father, a genius.
if you pay attention to what he's actually saying when he declares himself as her father, he sees appeal in claiming her as his daughter because it's impressive that he was able to create such a life-like program that she's like a "daughter" to him, in an impressive scientific way using code and electrons. again, it's all self centered, self praising, and conditional. I don't know what more I need to say
he's good to sage though
Please look at the description and click on the Sage segment timestamp. I talk about that in the video
@@EggEmperor. "It's no use"! Sonic fans are denser than a brainless sack of slugs. Why did knuckles' character portrayal got derailed? Answer Sonic X(english dub)!
So Fans will hate me for saying this, but the only reason Eggman treats Sage differently in the US/UK/EU versions to his other Creations is due to a certain Agenda being pushed in Western Civilization. This is made extremely obvious when you compare the Japanese and Western Translations of the Games.
I also want to say I adore E-101 Beta in both Forms.
The father-daughter vibe is still in the Japanese script. Plus, the English script is the original. Get your facts right!