Instead of water, you could use mineral oil just like when PC enthusiasts build submerged PC's. It should help with the corrosion problem and even add lubriaction the motors and bearings. You would also not have to epoxy anything as mineral oil is non-conductive.
I actually looked into this a few years ago. The prevailing issue that arises is that the mineral oil typically used for submerging PC actually burns at a lower temperature than most print nozzles.
@@jonathanschladetzky4754 that would only happen once the entire volume of the reservoir crosses that temperature threshold. Much in the same way you can hold a blowtorch to a water balloon without popping the balloon. It won't have a chance to burn before the heat gets wicked away.
@CPSdrone have you considered using "Corrosion X HD in all the stepper motors and connectors. Also, pour the silicone in smaller/thinner layers and it will dry better. Also maybe consider your layer smash/ thickness. With the print happening under water maybe you want the tip of the nozzle to "dig in" to the previous layer to get better layer adhesions. Maybe. At this point everything is trial and error.
Do this with a core xy machine which moves the bed down as it's printing. That way, you'll keep most of the sensitive stuff out of the water while still getting the full cooling benefit.
@@kyleo1236 Actually it would only displace by the volume of the filament, not the print. That would mean that if you were to print an entire roll of filament, it is equivalent to sticking the filament in the bath. Nowhere near as much displacement as you might think. Likely could be mitigated by just having a float to check the fluid level and drain some out whenever it gets above a specific point.
This would also allow you to print hollow parts that don't fill with water, by keeping the water level just below the top layer. That would also improve adhesion.
That's exactly what crossed my mind! There's already collapsible silicone wash bins if you get one that's base is slightly larger than the build plate you could even use magnetic build plate to secure it down then modify it so that the rim of the tub stays static. The only thing that would be the problem is as the plate goes down making sure the water stays level. I'm sure that could be figured out though... gravity, siphoning, something.
The most important thing is that you actually made a fully functional underwater 3d printer. That's the first step, and with more improvements, this could be a new way to print things without supports or in different materials that need such a particular cooling. Congratulations.
I wonder if instead of submerging the entire printer completely you could have a small secondary nozzle that shoots a stream of water at the recently cooled part. You wouldn’t have to deal with as much insulation or waterproofing, nor the heatbed losing a lot of heat to the water. You could have the jet of water be cooled by an ice bath or water chiller, allowing potentially more water cooling ability and stiffness for overhangs, and then switch to hot/no water for the parts that need better layer adhesion. Kinda like the equivalent of flood cooling on cnc mills but for printers
Maybe a delta style printer would be better with only the end effector going in the water. Not that any of this is a good idea. But it is entertaining. Great video. Keep up the good work.
In that case CoreXY would be optimal, because only the bed would need to be submerged in water and the rest stays dry. Also the very little contact of the nozzle with the water keeps it from needing insulation if you do it right
You guys are amazing and pushing the boundaries of 3D printing. I cant wait to see you improve this project and for whatever else you guys come up with!
It would be very interesting to see this tried again in a fluid with a density similar to or greater than that of PLA, I'd Imagine the bridging performance could be significantly improved. Great work!
This generally has an interesting application for semi-cristalline materials. Given their crystallisation rate is basically -x² with both points being y=0 (y being the cristallisation rate, x the temp) the tg and the melting point. Given cooling down to tg isnt possible for some filaments (POM having one of -80°C) you could keep the liquid temp just below the melting point of the filament. For this application a non-oil based liquid with a boiling point of over 200°C would be needed. But if you can get that liquid, the rest would be pretty easy given the Hotend basically needs no insulation Basically by keeping the material just below its melting point and easing gravity with a liquid you could keep the crystallisation rate at almost 0 making warping bc of crystallisation insignificant
That would maybe reduce warping but it would also make it pretty much impossible to print, if the whole print volume is just under the melting point the plastic won’t cool fast enough and will deform, on top of that most 3D printing materials go soft well before their printing temperature so would deform because of that too. With heated chambers and beds you want to have the temperature below the heat deflection temperature or glass transition temperature to reduce warping but also to stop the print melting or deforming.
@@conorstewart2214 thats why a fluid might help to stabilize the filament. Im well aware that the filament gets soft, but in my case i wanna print POM, which is basically impossible to print as soon as it starts crystallizing
@@chris_0725 how do you think a fluid might help to stabilise it? Air is a fluid anyway. Your fluid would have to be the same density as the filament so the parts dont sink or float and be thick enough to not be pushed around and deform your part. Anyway the same issues exist, having the part heated to much higher than its glass transistion temperature would make it very easy to deform, with a fluid even the currents caused by the hot end moving might cause it to deform and gravity definitely still will. A solid solution could be better, similar to how SLS printers work, you could maybe do that but add a filler material around the part rather than just plastic powder. What issues are you having printing POM?
@@conorstewart2214 To answer you last question first: what issues dont i have while printing Pom xD It sticks on almost nothing (something ive learned to overcome), and it shrinks about 4% due to crystallinity
Excellent engineering process by iterating on solutions after breaking down the problem into manageable parts. I wouldn’t have believed this was possible until seeing the video. Even though a simple underwater 3D printer may not be practical, your experiment can be used as a springboard for various innovations in the 3D printing space as illustrated on the comments. Well done 👏
For mechanical longevity you can replace all the linear bearings with igus polymer bushings. The axial bearings could be replaced with ceramic versions or polymer bushings. You could potentially replace the rods with aluminum or carbon fiber to ensure that they don’t oxidize in the water.
I hope you consider my idea for next version,, the best way in my opinion to do this is to only submerge the layers that are printed. The extruder should stay mostly above water and only move sideways. And the plateforme should be capable of going up and down, this way the printing happens centimeters from the surface but the motors and all electronics stay above water, only the base will be submerged and move downward as you print
Dig it. Wonder what advantages other liquids may have. Also now we need a slicer setting that will (or wont) let water drain out. Might be a good way to balance prints.
I think the motors are a pretty easy fix, just make them water tight and add mineral oil to their inside to make it even harder for water to get in through possible tiny gaps.
Interesting topic! I think the stepper motors should be located outside the water, connect them with timing belts. But I think you will then need to use a bowden extruder. (if the bowden is good sealed, the filament won't touch the water before being extruded) Also you can try different water temperatures to see if there are any differences.
I see massive advantages regarding cooling when printing under water. for example that water has a similar specific density to PETG, meaning that you need almost no support to support. PLA has a higher density, but not bad. you will need some sort holes as an opening to the infill to drain the water. and since you will probably not be able to change the nozzle, I'd suggest the diamond nozzle, it is practically not degenerating when using it, it might outlast your printer.
@@braken9315 it takes PLA quite some time to absorb water, and after it is used for printing, the water absorption does not massively alter the print quality (or in other words: keep some holes in the perimeter so the water trapped in the infill can escape).
@@robertheinrich2994 you did forget that 3d printing causes tiny holes which you cant see where watter will get trapped in and thats gonna be worse when you are directly printing it in water
@@braken9315 that might be a problem too. honestly, I love space travel and I am very interested in it. the test to print under water is just one step. we need to test if printing in vacuum is possible. cooling fans shouldn't work in vacuum. if we get that working, 3d-printing space stations could become a thing.
quick tip, stainless bearings for steppers, bigger probelem is the stepper body...also pla floats in water so overhagns will come out perfect thanks to that.
For the stepper problem, back in the day I made a crude underwater vehicle for a school project. We had the motors in a plastic container that was filled with wax from a toilet wax ring (new ofc) the shaft was unimpeded and the wax kept everything sealed up tight. Could also look into how pump motors seal the motor from the shaft.
What if you'd attempt to build a printer that would use a belt system to move the gantry underwater but keep the steppers in the air. (Something like an inverted Ultimaker S3, where you don't see any stepper motors at all) You'd still have problems with isolating the nozzle, one way that maybe would do this, if you'd have an unlimited budget would be aerogel, sadly that's not a realistic option currently. I didn't see if you have pulled a vacuum on your red nozzle bath, if you would suck all the air out before letting it cure you won't have gas bubbles that will form later on. One way to stop the plastic from collecting moisture would be to attempt to enclose the whole filament system so that no water gets inside. But then you could encounter problems with the water trying to get into the nozzle from the bottom which could create weird things. Ale jako pierwszy prototyp drukowania pod wodą to wygląda naprawdę fajnie!
@@Micharlusat 11:00 you can see what gas bubbles do. You want the silicone to be evenly distributed everywhere without any bubbles where the material could possibly start degrading
I feel like a delta printer would be perfect for this experiment. Instead of submerging the whole printer you can just submerge the printhead and lose only a little bit of the build volume.
Awesome experiment 😀. A few suggestions: - Use high temperature two component silicone. It is usually sold as a form building material for tin/lead casting. - Keep the moisture out of the print head (should be possible with the ptfe tube), that would help with layer adhesion. - There is a steam bubble at the tip of the nozzle, not sure if this is useful, I would try both forming the underside to retain the bubble and come up with some way to disperse it and see what happens.
Very nice! Have you considered filling the stepper motors with oil? Something important to note about stepper motors is that they lose part of their magnetism once you open them. I know it makes no sense at first. I've heard of 40% torque loss after opening an expensive one. It depends on the stepper, so hopefully not a major contributor here. Nice work!
Amazing video! You mentioned that printing underwater fills the print with water that makes it heavy; I can imagine some interesting use cases where you print things in some sort of lightweight gas (helium?), or even better, a vacuum!
Ok, mind blown by the concept, but you really nailed it at the very end. I didn't realize it would be possible to 3d-print a glass full of water to drink.
Tbh I like the idea, a lot of printed stuff can be a pain in terms of floating, just doing it underwater in the first place and making the part waterproof would be a good way to print something you want to be filled with water but not leak when removed from the water
now try printing with an unmodified printer in mineral oil
8 місяців тому
For not soaking the filament, you can use aquarium tubes and design a waterproof filament housing. Tubes are available in any aquarium store by the meter.
Emily the engineer, already did a video where she submerged and ender 3 and printed underwater with mineral oil and it worked fine for her. I dunno how you and rctestflight missed that video, but to see it done in actual water is cool too!
Amazing!!! I thought of this exact idea some time ago and even told a friend about it, but we never attempted a prototype. Additional ideas: Heated liquid (mentioned in the last second) for perfect build volume heating without warping (abs, pet...), Oil as liquid (no corrosion problems, perfekt lubrication and even lower density difference>> higher buoyancy, flooding after the first layer, sealed Filament path (tube to the surface), core XY to prevent problems with high drag when moving a bigger part. I don't know if I got everything, but sooo cool to see someone having the same idea. Basically I concluded, that it would make even more sense to use a solid instead of a liquid and how cool would it be if the solid was the Printmaterial - which brought me to SLS printers.
Althought submerging it was originally for the cooling, with more r&d that technology might enable them using 3D printers for underwater missions(maybe building or repairing deep sea structures?)
With a pump you could have just regulated the water level automatically to the print height. This way you could use a stock extruder setup. This way you could even mount all your steppers and electronics on top!
You can use the red silicone if you apply it in thinner layers. When you apply big blobs like that the air cant reach the silicone under the surface layer.
I wonder if it is possible to help remove the water from small tight spaces in the model by putting it in a vacuum chamber after you're finished? That way the water will evaporate under the extremely low pressure. I would also suggest designing models as open on the bottom with a easy-to-drain infill (something columnar?), and then adding an endcap that fits to the bottom to make the shell solid for the final product.
Here's some other ideas for improving underwater printing: Use a delta printer so you can keep the motor above the water. Fill the water gradually just under the nozzle so you don't have to worry about covering the heating block with silicone since it will be above water and if your goal is just better cooling for the plastic coming out of the nozzle just use a sprayer or something to spray the extruded filament with water or coolant to cool it quickly.
Shouldn't it also help if you found an extra sticky filament? Added onto the other fixes you mentioned at the end of the video, this should make it better than regular printing. Genius!
You need to provide two things. cooling speed and you can use instead of water oil with a density similar to that of PET-G, i.e. approx. 1.3g/cm3, then the print will not sink to the bottom. you will get a perfect bridge without rust :)
Panowie, próbowaliście może schładzać wydruk sprężonym przez sprężarkę powietrzem (np. do aerografu)? Przy odpowiedniej konfiguracji chłodzenia powietrza po przewężeniu (np. spirala z rurki zanurzona w wodzie) i odpowiednim zamocowaniu dyszy rozprężone przy wylocie powietrze powinno działać o wiele lepiej niż konwencjonalne chłodzenie wentylatorem. Minus taki, że ustrojstwo to będzie tragicznie głośne :D No i trzeba odpowiednio dostosować kształt i odległość dyszy, aby nie zdmuchnąć druku :D
There is a lot of MAGIC that happens in thermoforming but also in many processes when you induce a proper pressure differential environment upon such a process. In fact, we live within a pressure differential bubble with feedback for equilibrium. I am sure. I don't think people have considered this yet, but the exercise in printing inside water, especially in a pool, a larger sort of container, can yield interesting data if you can take into account pressure measurements. What I am talking about is a much more in depth analysis but these experiments under water are a very good start. It is through experimentation that many new findings find themselves progressively in practical applications.
I have experience with the MG chemical high temperature epoxy. Great stuff but don't go too large in volume. Make a sleeve around the heater with an 4-5 mm offset. This way you prevent cracking. It's quite insulating up to 280 degrees (not sure). I used it in 200+ degree air, you might need to increase the wall thickness. Also it's quite viscous so pulling a vacuum will help with bubbles. Love the work!
Id look at putting oil into the motors, might slow them down a bit but its common to do this with watches as it allows divers to use them at lower levels.. also it looks cool. Not sure how well motors are sealed but only one way to find out..
@CPSdrone how about using a mineral oil in a watertight box around the hotend? This will allow for some heat exchange but higher viscosity of the oil and its lower specific heat will make the heat transfer from the hotend into the water slower.
This is incredible! I thought for sure that there was gonna be some kind of trick but no, you just figured out how to put a 3-D printer underwater. maybe you should also try Ark overhangs and see if you can get better performance with those as well. Good job, you are very talented!
I was wondering if you were going to broach the subject and you didn't disappoint, my first thought wasn't cooling, but more that water has buoyancy, which would dramatically improve the support of overhangs. That's an interesting thought, though there are clearly still some hurdles in the process. Mineral oil is a thing, but that would be >messy< and really hard to clean off the printed objects, let alone the printer itself, plus would probably affect bed adhesion. Water, on the other hand, can easily be displaced by the plastic and heated nozzle. The other problem is that most print materials are hydroscopic, so can absorb water, including PLA.
Try Permatex copper but do it in thinner layers for the heatblock. Once the outside builds up a crust the inside will always have a hard time curing. The copper version might be conductive though, so watch the heater and thermistor wires.
It also might help if you either pick a plastic or dissolve stuff in the water to make the plastic neutrally buoyant. That should improve the already impressive bridging.
I wonder if it would be possible to make i so as the printer prints it will slowly add water to the aquarium so only the stuff needing cooled is submerged. So once it finishes a layer it fills up the aquarium by maybe 1/2 an inch. It would also keep the filament drier and the extruder a bit warmer cause air doesn't conduct nearly as much heat as water.
for better layer adhesion consider using hot water, like 50C or a bit lower. Heating it just below the glass transition temp could overheat the motors, so maybe 40C 45C is better.
Great job guys!! A few hours before catching this, I saw another vid based around a machine that prints while submerged in some sort of Gel solution. [denser / better at 'suspending'] The gel allowed for next to no movement/shift of the filament as it was applied, so everything can be printed w/o the use of supports. It was killer. You're Onto Something! Keep it up!! 🤘 Sam -
Are there any plastics with a density comparable to water? Some of the sagging problems could be corrected that way maybe. Also water might be able to travel between the wire and the insulation.
Make a small cup around the nozzle - when submerged the water around the nozzle will boil and make a small air pocket so it doesn't cool down when moving
I went to school for SIM-IMM (injection molding). That said my question is related to the resident bonding ability as you are cooling it so quick you are reducing its bonding time so how structurally stable are the products you're producing?
If you used a core xy it would have been alot easier since everything could have been outside of the liquid and only the print bed gets lowered in the fluid. or just add better aircooling
we need to mill a print head for this application and/or use a reactive resin most likely for this. if you are just going for the cooling you could have( nvm that mineral oil idea is so spot on you should really try that )
Wow! I can't believe the layer adhesion worked as well as it did. Amazing
That was maybe the biggest surprise. I love that you told us it wouldn't work at OpenSauce
@@CPSdrone lol love to see some polish stuff on english yt. i was geniuenly suprised when i saw allegro XD
@@CPSdronedude is rubbing it in lol
tow one of these setups behind your kayak in case any parts break while you're in the middle of the lake
When global warming covers the earth in water, it Will no longer be funny lol
You all are completely nuts. It was good meeting you at Noisebridge this summer!
Haha thanks I guess. Really enjoyed that conversation :)
@@CPSdrone in case it was ambiguous, that’s definitely intended as a compliment. Awesome idea and video.
@@StrangePartswas gonna "random internet stranger chime-in" until I saw your follow-up. Language is a fickle beast lol
@@CPSdrone guys you may have solved water issues around the world. try designing a bottle with a lid. boom water solutions for remote places
@@PauIieWalnutsand yet you still managed to chime...
Instead of water, you could use mineral oil just like when PC enthusiasts build submerged PC's. It should help with the corrosion problem and even add lubriaction the motors and bearings. You would also not have to epoxy anything as mineral oil is non-conductive.
So much mineral oil!
Especially for the swimmingpool :)
I actually looked into this a few years ago. The prevailing issue that arises is that the mineral oil typically used for submerging PC actually burns at a lower temperature than most print nozzles.
@@jonathanschladetzky4754 Mineral Fire sounds cool as well.
@@jonathanschladetzky4754 that would only happen once the entire volume of the reservoir crosses that temperature threshold. Much in the same way you can hold a blowtorch to a water balloon without popping the balloon. It won't have a chance to burn before the heat gets wicked away.
I love how you said "This change should improve your layer adhesion" as if anyone else in the world is underwater 3D printing right now.
I am ):
You'll never know who may need it 🙄
-Mermaid that owns a 3D printer
they are testing underwater printing in labs, so just maybe.
Amazing work!
Your approval mean a lot :) And thanks for putting us in your OpenSauce video!
he just looking for attention@@CPSdrone
@CPSdrone have you considered using "Corrosion X HD in all the stepper motors and connectors. Also, pour the silicone in smaller/thinner layers and it will dry better. Also maybe consider your layer smash/ thickness. With the print happening under water maybe you want the tip of the nozzle to "dig in" to the previous layer to get better layer adhesions. Maybe. At this point everything is trial and error.
Hi I am a big fan
pretty interesting tests! 👏
Do this with a core xy machine which moves the bed down as it's printing. That way, you'll keep most of the sensitive stuff out of the water while still getting the full cooling benefit.
you'd have to use a large aquarium because if you print something large it would displace the water causing the water level to rise.
@@kyleo1236 Actually it would only displace by the volume of the filament, not the print.
That would mean that if you were to print an entire roll of filament, it is equivalent to sticking the filament in the bath. Nowhere near as much displacement as you might think.
Likely could be mitigated by just having a float to check the fluid level and drain some out whenever it gets above a specific point.
@@SirSpence99 Or solve it by placing the filament roll into the water. Adds other trouble too.
This would also allow you to print hollow parts that don't fill with water, by keeping the water level just below the top layer. That would also improve adhesion.
That's exactly what crossed my mind! There's already collapsible silicone wash bins if you get one that's base is slightly larger than the build plate you could even use magnetic build plate to secure it down then modify it so that the rim of the tub stays static. The only thing that would be the problem is as the plate goes down making sure the water stays level. I'm sure that could be figured out though... gravity, siphoning, something.
The most important thing is that you actually made a fully functional underwater 3d printer. That's the first step, and with more improvements, this could be a new way to print things without supports or in different materials that need such a particular cooling. Congratulations.
I wonder if instead of submerging the entire printer completely you could have a small secondary nozzle that shoots a stream of water at the recently cooled part. You wouldn’t have to deal with as much insulation or waterproofing, nor the heatbed losing a lot of heat to the water. You could have the jet of water be cooled by an ice bath or water chiller, allowing potentially more water cooling ability and stiffness for overhangs, and then switch to hot/no water for the parts that need better layer adhesion. Kinda like the equivalent of flood cooling on cnc mills but for printers
What about mineral oil?
yeah
Good idea but the print bead would cool down way too fast and spotty. Maybe chilled air would be better suited instead.
i didnt know you were into 3d printers
Leave cereal into really hot milk for 1 hour then eat it
2:20 For Person who is from Poland thats really great that you used Allegro ❤
They are livin in poland bro
@@cg_jezosaw6824 XD
Maybe a delta style printer would be better with only the end effector going in the water. Not that any of this is a good idea. But it is entertaining.
Great video. Keep up the good work.
In that case CoreXY would be optimal, because only the bed would need to be submerged in water and the rest stays dry. Also the very little contact of the nozzle with the water keeps it from needing insulation if you do it right
You guys are amazing and pushing the boundaries of 3D printing. I cant wait to see you improve this project and for whatever else you guys come up with!
Now strap it to the underwater drone.
YES
Why?
Yes, that's a perfectly logical evolution of our projects
Oh no! What if it breaks free and creates offspring 😁
SELF REPLICATING DRONE!!! And that's how we ended up living in the matrix kids😂
It would be very interesting to see this tried again in a fluid with a density similar to or greater than that of PLA, I'd Imagine the bridging performance could be significantly improved. Great work!
This generally has an interesting application for semi-cristalline materials. Given their crystallisation rate is basically -x² with both points being y=0 (y being the cristallisation rate, x the temp) the tg and the melting point. Given cooling down to tg isnt possible for some filaments (POM having one of -80°C) you could keep the liquid temp just below the melting point of the filament. For this application a non-oil based liquid with a boiling point of over 200°C would be needed. But if you can get that liquid, the rest would be pretty easy given the Hotend basically needs no insulation
Basically by keeping the material just below its melting point and easing gravity with a liquid you could keep the crystallisation rate at almost 0 making warping bc of crystallisation insignificant
That would maybe reduce warping but it would also make it pretty much impossible to print, if the whole print volume is just under the melting point the plastic won’t cool fast enough and will deform, on top of that most 3D printing materials go soft well before their printing temperature so would deform because of that too. With heated chambers and beds you want to have the temperature below the heat deflection temperature or glass transition temperature to reduce warping but also to stop the print melting or deforming.
@@conorstewart2214 thats why a fluid might help to stabilize the filament. Im well aware that the filament gets soft, but in my case i wanna print POM, which is basically impossible to print as soon as it starts crystallizing
Ive done a lot of printing with recycled materials like HDPE and PP and this would be such a cool solution to their warping tendencies
@@chris_0725 how do you think a fluid might help to stabilise it? Air is a fluid anyway. Your fluid would have to be the same density as the filament so the parts dont sink or float and be thick enough to not be pushed around and deform your part. Anyway the same issues exist, having the part heated to much higher than its glass transistion temperature would make it very easy to deform, with a fluid even the currents caused by the hot end moving might cause it to deform and gravity definitely still will.
A solid solution could be better, similar to how SLS printers work, you could maybe do that but add a filler material around the part rather than just plastic powder.
What issues are you having printing POM?
@@conorstewart2214 To answer you last question first: what issues dont i have while printing Pom xD
It sticks on almost nothing (something ive learned to overcome), and it shrinks about 4% due to crystallinity
Excellent engineering process by iterating on solutions after breaking down the problem into manageable parts. I wouldn’t have believed this was possible until seeing the video. Even though a simple underwater 3D printer may not be practical, your experiment can be used as a springboard for various innovations in the 3D printing space as illustrated on the comments. Well done 👏
For mechanical longevity you can replace all the linear bearings with igus polymer bushings. The axial bearings could be replaced with ceramic versions or polymer bushings. You could potentially replace the rods with aluminum or carbon fiber to ensure that they don’t oxidize in the water.
Aluminium oxidizes bro
@@ChrisWijtmans Ceramic berings is the way to go.
I hope you consider my idea for next version,,
the best way in my opinion to do this is to only submerge the layers that are printed. The extruder should stay mostly above water and only move sideways. And the plateforme should be capable of going up and down, this way the printing happens centimeters from the surface but the motors and all electronics stay above water, only the base will be submerged and move downward as you print
This guy really said:"everyone is telling me to keep my fliment dry, if the whole printer is wet my wet fliment will be fine."
Dig it. Wonder what advantages other liquids may have. Also now we need a slicer setting that will (or wont) let water drain out. Might be a good way to balance prints.
Świetna robota Panowie! Super materiał :D
Btw dobrze że po wsadzeniu drukarki do basenu, ludzie w tle nie zaczęli nagle pływać na plecach xD
ale z cb kalendarz
jd
Jprdl diss
Zauważyłeś polski silikon?😂
@@pmcmalec allegro
Try heating the water to the glas transition temperature of pla. I think that could fix a lot of problems
I think the motors are a pretty easy fix, just make them water tight and add mineral oil to their inside to make it even harder for water to get in through possible tiny gaps.
You can buy them IP68
Interesting topic! I think the stepper motors should be located outside the water, connect them with timing belts. But I think you will then need to use a bowden extruder. (if the bowden is good sealed, the filament won't touch the water before being extruded) Also you can try different water temperatures to see if there are any differences.
I see massive advantages regarding cooling when printing under water. for example that water has a similar specific density to PETG, meaning that you need almost no support to support. PLA has a higher density, but not bad.
you will need some sort holes as an opening to the infill to drain the water.
and since you will probably not be able to change the nozzle, I'd suggest the diamond nozzle, it is practically not degenerating when using it, it might outlast your printer.
pla absorbs water
@@braken9315 it takes PLA quite some time to absorb water, and after it is used for printing, the water absorption does not massively alter the print quality (or in other words: keep some holes in the perimeter so the water trapped in the infill can escape).
@@robertheinrich2994 you did forget that 3d printing causes tiny holes which you cant see where watter will get trapped in and thats gonna be worse when you are directly printing it in water
@@braken9315 that might be a problem too.
honestly, I love space travel and I am very interested in it. the test to print under water is just one step. we need to test if printing in vacuum is possible. cooling fans shouldn't work in vacuum.
if we get that working, 3d-printing space stations could become a thing.
quick tip, stainless bearings for steppers, bigger probelem is the stepper body...also pla floats in water so overhagns will come out perfect thanks to that.
Hejkaaa na jaki basen można wejść z drukarką 3D?
Edit: a dobra już widzę że basen Politechniki Gdańskiej :DD
Świetna robota, pozdrawiam z Rzeszowa :))
Właśnie z jakiegoś powodu nic do drukarki nie mieli
For the stepper problem, back in the day I made a crude underwater vehicle for a school project. We had the motors in a plastic container that was filled with wax from a toilet wax ring (new ofc) the shaft was unimpeded and the wax kept everything sealed up tight. Could also look into how pump motors seal the motor from the shaft.
What if you'd attempt to build a printer that would use a belt system to move the gantry underwater but keep the steppers in the air. (Something like an inverted Ultimaker S3, where you don't see any stepper motors at all)
You'd still have problems with isolating the nozzle, one way that maybe would do this, if you'd have an unlimited budget would be aerogel, sadly that's not a realistic option currently.
I didn't see if you have pulled a vacuum on your red nozzle bath, if you would suck all the air out before letting it cure you won't have gas bubbles that will form later on.
One way to stop the plastic from collecting moisture would be to attempt to enclose the whole filament system so that no water gets inside. But then you could encounter problems with the water trying to get into the nozzle from the bottom which could create weird things.
Ale jako pierwszy prototyp drukowania pod wodą to wygląda naprawdę fajnie!
Thats actually a really neat idea
What actually is a problem with gas bubbles in this situation? Wouldn't they mostly act as extra insulation?
@@Micharlusat 11:00 you can see what gas bubbles do. You want the silicone to be evenly distributed everywhere without any bubbles where the material could possibly start degrading
Oh, that's the result of air bubbles? Now I see, cheers.
I feel like a delta printer would be perfect for this experiment. Instead of submerging the whole printer you can just submerge the printhead and lose only a little bit of the build volume.
Awesome experiment 😀. A few suggestions:
- Use high temperature two component silicone. It is usually sold as a form building material for tin/lead casting.
- Keep the moisture out of the print head (should be possible with the ptfe tube), that would help with layer adhesion.
- There is a steam bubble at the tip of the nozzle, not sure if this is useful, I would try both forming the underside to retain the bubble and come up with some way to disperse it and see what happens.
The steam bubble may actually be the reason we are seeing good bed and layer adhesion. It's pushing the water out of the contact area.
@@martindinner3621 yeah might be, that is why I would suggest testing two setups, one that retains the bubble well, and one that disperses it.
Being insane, and being creative, have a very very thin overlap, you are one of the only people to ever be in this overlap,
Very nice! Have you considered filling the stepper motors with oil?
Something important to note about stepper motors is that they lose part of their magnetism once you open them. I know it makes no sense at first. I've heard of 40% torque loss after opening an expensive one. It depends on the stepper, so hopefully not a major contributor here.
Nice work!
Amazing video! You mentioned that printing underwater fills the print with water that makes it heavy; I can imagine some interesting use cases where you print things in some sort of lightweight gas (helium?), or even better, a vacuum!
Ok, mind blown by the concept, but you really nailed it at the very end. I didn't realize it would be possible to 3d-print a glass full of water to drink.
Tbh I like the idea, a lot of printed stuff can be a pain in terms of floating, just doing it underwater in the first place and making the part waterproof would be a good way to print something you want to be filled with water but not leak when removed from the water
now try printing with an unmodified printer in mineral oil
For not soaking the filament, you can use aquarium tubes and design a waterproof filament housing. Tubes are available in any aquarium store by the meter.
Emily the engineer, already did a video where she submerged and ender 3 and printed underwater with mineral oil and it worked fine for her. I dunno how you and rctestflight missed that video, but to see it done in actual water is cool too!
Amazing!!! I thought of this exact idea some time ago and even told a friend about it, but we never attempted a prototype. Additional ideas: Heated liquid (mentioned in the last second) for perfect build volume heating without warping (abs, pet...), Oil as liquid (no corrosion problems, perfekt lubrication and even lower density difference>> higher buoyancy, flooding after the first layer, sealed Filament path (tube to the surface), core XY to prevent problems with high drag when moving a bigger part. I don't know if I got everything, but sooo cool to see someone having the same idea. Basically I concluded, that it would make even more sense to use a solid instead of a liquid and how cool would it be if the solid was the Printmaterial - which brought me to SLS printers.
Why didn't you use mineral oil instead of water?
Because then it wouldn't be under water
Althought submerging it was originally for the cooling, with more r&d that technology might enable them using 3D printers for underwater missions(maybe building or repairing deep sea structures?)
With a pump you could have just regulated the water level automatically to the print height. This way you could use a stock extruder setup. This way you could even mount all your steppers and electronics on top!
Imponujące, być może potrzebny będzie specjalny filament do takiej drukarki. Chłopaki po prostu WoW!
mam pruse mini (czy da sie to preprowadzic na mojej drukarce)
You can use the red silicone if you apply it in thinner layers. When you apply big blobs like that the air cant reach the silicone under the surface layer.
Who came from the short?!
Me
yeah
Yup
Me
Hi
I wonder if it is possible to help remove the water from small tight spaces in the model by putting it in a vacuum chamber after you're finished? That way the water will evaporate under the extremely low pressure.
I would also suggest designing models as open on the bottom with a easy-to-drain infill (something columnar?), and then adding an endcap that fits to the bottom to make the shell solid for the final product.
Here's some other ideas for improving underwater printing:
Use a delta printer so you can keep the motor above the water.
Fill the water gradually just under the nozzle so you don't have to worry about covering the heating block with silicone since it will be above water
and if your goal is just better cooling for the plastic coming out of the nozzle just use a sprayer or something to spray the extruded filament with water or coolant to cool it quickly.
Incredible video. Innovation is all about “could we” rather than “should we”.
Shouldn't it also help if you found an extra sticky filament? Added onto the other fixes you mentioned at the end of the video, this should make it better than regular printing. Genius!
You need to provide two things. cooling speed and you can use instead of water oil with a density similar to that of PET-G, i.e. approx. 1.3g/cm3, then the print will not sink to the bottom. you will get a perfect bridge without rust :)
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.
Newcomer to the channel, and I was 95% sure this was clickbait. Pleasantly surprised to discover this is very real!
One question, isn't it better if you use computer coolant instead of water?
I think they use a special oil that eliminates the short circuit problem🤔
This MK2 is a trooper for sure, this is stress testing beyond limits. If you excuse me, I'll go and hug my MK2.5s
It has been through a lot
Panowie, próbowaliście może schładzać wydruk sprężonym przez sprężarkę powietrzem (np. do aerografu)? Przy odpowiedniej konfiguracji chłodzenia powietrza po przewężeniu (np. spirala z rurki zanurzona w wodzie) i odpowiednim zamocowaniu dyszy rozprężone przy wylocie powietrze powinno działać o wiele lepiej niż konwencjonalne chłodzenie wentylatorem. Minus taki, że ustrojstwo to będzie tragicznie głośne :D No i trzeba odpowiednio dostosować kształt i odległość dyszy, aby nie zdmuchnąć druku :D
Ok ale po co?
I can't even get my layers to adhere normally and you're out here doing it underwater.
There is a lot of MAGIC that happens in thermoforming but also in many processes when you induce a proper pressure differential environment upon such a process. In fact, we live within a pressure differential bubble with feedback for equilibrium. I am sure.
I don't think people have considered this yet, but the exercise in printing inside water, especially in a pool, a larger sort of container, can yield interesting data if you can take into account pressure measurements.
What I am talking about is a much more in depth analysis but these experiments under water are a very good start.
It is through experimentation that many new findings find themselves progressively in practical applications.
I have experience with the MG chemical high temperature epoxy. Great stuff but don't go too large in volume. Make a sleeve around the heater with an 4-5 mm offset. This way you prevent cracking. It's quite insulating up to 280 degrees (not sure). I used it in 200+ degree air, you might need to increase the wall thickness. Also it's quite viscous so pulling a vacuum will help with bubbles. Love the work!
Id look at putting oil into the motors, might slow them down a bit but its common to do this with watches as it allows divers to use them at lower levels.. also it looks cool. Not sure how well motors are sealed but only one way to find out..
The content on your channel is very funny and useful! Thank you.
Great work, but I'm wondering.. What if you use better suited, non-corrosive liquids for this purpose .. Cheers!
i wonder if you could further improve bridging by using some denser liquid so the plastic is even more buoyant.
Hey guys! This idea is completely sick but I LOVE it! I really enjoyed! 👍
@CPSdrone how about using a mineral oil in a watertight box around the hotend? This will allow for some heat exchange but higher viscosity of the oil and its lower specific heat will make the heat transfer from the hotend into the water slower.
Doing this must make the pladtic solidify super fast! Try to speed it up and make the parts more aqua-dynamic
This is a great video and commentary. Some of the best for sure.
This is the type of madness I didn't know I wanted to so. I was completely enthralled by the entire process.
If you use salt water instead of water, the pla would be fully supported by bouyancy, for even better bridging.
This is incredible! I thought for sure that there was gonna be some kind of trick but no, you just figured out how to put a 3-D printer underwater. maybe you should also try Ark overhangs and see if you can get better performance with those as well. Good job, you are very talented!
Regarding overhang angles, if you print with materials like hdpe which is lighter than water you might get amazing unsupported printing
I was wondering if you were going to broach the subject and you didn't disappoint, my first thought wasn't cooling, but more that water has buoyancy, which would dramatically improve the support of overhangs. That's an interesting thought, though there are clearly still some hurdles in the process. Mineral oil is a thing, but that would be >messy< and really hard to clean off the printed objects, let alone the printer itself, plus would probably affect bed adhesion. Water, on the other hand, can easily be displaced by the plastic and heated nozzle. The other problem is that most print materials are hydroscopic, so can absorb water, including PLA.
Try Permatex copper but do it in thinner layers for the heatblock. Once the outside builds up a crust the inside will always have a hard time curing. The copper version might be conductive though, so watch the heater and thermistor wires.
It also might help if you either pick a plastic or dissolve stuff in the water to make the plastic neutrally buoyant. That should improve the already impressive bridging.
Why has no-one thought of this before? brilliant.
Incredible ideia. Thx for the content. why not buying waterproof servos instead?
I wonder if it would be possible to make i so as the printer prints it will slowly add water to the aquarium so only the stuff needing cooled is submerged. So once it finishes a layer it fills up the aquarium by maybe 1/2 an inch. It would also keep the filament drier and the extruder a bit warmer cause air doesn't conduct nearly as much heat as water.
Could've added a reverse bowden to an external watertight box to keep the filament in to prevent it from getting wet
This is awful and beautiful at the same time! Great work guys!
You could try using a sous vide to heat the water to a very exact temperature, it would also help with the buoyancy at certain temperatures too 😊
I tried in baby oil , might give it another shot , no idea how you got so much of it water proofed , maybe plaster as a heat insulator ?
It is so awesome to watch you having so much fun. this kind of video makes my day. Thanks for your creativity and humor
Very bold plan and experiments! I love the lack of fear of failure!
for better layer adhesion consider using hot water, like 50C or a bit lower. Heating it just below the glass transition temp could overheat the motors, so maybe 40C 45C is better.
Great job guys!!
A few hours before catching this, I saw another vid based around a machine
that prints while submerged in some sort of Gel solution. [denser / better at 'suspending']
The gel allowed for next to no movement/shift of the filament as it was applied,
so everything can be printed w/o the use of supports. It was killer. You're Onto Something!
Keep it up!!
🤘
Sam -
It was on MOSFET's channel! Found it!
"Breakthrough 3D Printer Uses Strange Goo"
ua-cam.com/video/MXOJeKFZsSk/v-deo.html&t
Dark souls text and sound effects are a nice touch!
Are there any plastics with a density comparable to water? Some of the sagging problems could be corrected that way maybe. Also water might be able to travel between the wire and the insulation.
Make a small cup around the nozzle - when submerged the water around the nozzle will boil and make a small air pocket so it doesn't cool down when moving
Maybe using another more dense fluid than water. I've heard something about a gel. What do you guys think?
this is amazing! i love the idea and the chaotic realisation! LOL But actually underwater printing is amazing, didn't know it was posible.
What if you warm the water up slightly. I think it would help with layer adhesion. Fish tank heater.
Subscribed not only for this sick Content, but you guys are great lol
I went to school for SIM-IMM (injection molding). That said my question is related to the resident bonding ability as you are cooling it so quick you are reducing its bonding time so how structurally stable are the products you're producing?
Amazing! I think that Pruša is now looking forward to your super video with the experiment and its water creature.
If you used a core xy it would have been alot easier since everything could have been outside of the liquid and only the print bed gets lowered in the fluid.
or just add better aircooling
amazing production quality as always, good stuff!
wonder what else you could use instead of water to print things in
If we replace water with a liquid that has a density close to PLA, can we achieve support-free printing?
Now I'm wondering what the overhangs would be like with a more viscous liquid than water.
Can get ceramic or stainless bearings to use instead of the steel ones in the stepped motors
Great idea!! You can get rubber silicone (gasket seal) for engines that can handle high temps and would be ideal for heat block
we need to mill a print head for this application and/or use a reactive resin most likely for this. if you are just going for the cooling you could have( nvm that mineral oil idea is so spot on you should really try that )