With AC it doesn't matter which way the 2 wires are connected that's why the colours are the same I guess the motor only spins one way. My condolences, Good to see you back again, take care.
Thx Coolkeys. Your right. I just had to check the AC theory on a hoover motor and as you said.. It indeed does not make any difference to the direction of rotation. Thanks John
Its a synchronous motor that runs in lock step with the 50 Hz AC supply - until it stalls. Being AC is does not matter which way around the terminals are wired. These motors internally use a 'shaded pole' where a short circuit delays the phase on one side that causes a physical asymmetry that determines the direction of rotation.
John - many thanks for getting back. I think I have cracked it. The new motor has an output gear too short to match the actuator head. To solve that I took the gear box off an old unit and fitted it to the new synchronous motor instead of the one shipped. A careful check this morning revealed differences in the gear unit not least a different rotational relationship input to output. Now I am swapping the output gears. Why all the trouble? In this 300 year old house the floors are not level; draining refilling and removing air locks takes forever.
Ah ok... Good to hear your getting along ok with it now. I actually don't believe you'd have any better luck if you're house was brand new.. As nothing seems to work, or fit correctly these days does it.. Hehee 😊 Cheers John
Sorry to hear of your loss but also good to see you back. It looks like that motor is being 'stalled' at the end of its travel there (to hold against the spring return)... with that and the heat (being on a HW system) no wonder they don't last! Always strikes me that 24v controls like they use in the US would be better, not just for safety, but for the thicker (and thus more robust) windings on motors and suchlike.
Thanks Chipmunk :) Agreed my friend, the motor is quite a strong device when its running...I've not testing it boes it does seem to just STOP against the microswitch when it's activated, so unless it's got some sort of internal clutch etc (which I doubt) it's under some stress all the time really. Not just in that 'ON' position either. Once power is cut the return spring is really strong to and really whips that gear around thus pulling the mechanism back. Actually the rather weak metal plates holding this whole thing together bend under the return spring tension :o Thought I was subbed back to you but it seemed not. I am now though :) Thanks friend John
The video is very detailed, i have just noticed that the motor you replaced is a cheap crappy motor that is called synchronous, the motor will burn out very quickly, kust saying😊
Hi, I have a synchron motor but the manual arm falls short of the micro switch/end switch. How can it fall short by about 4mm. Have the gears slipped? If so how can I realign them. This also means that when it’s called for hot water, the switch isn’t engaged to activate the boiler and pump. Hope you can help.
Hi Simon.. If I remember correctly my motor was doing the exact same thing as yours & wasn't contacting the mirco-switch at the end of it's travel. So our heating or hot water wasn't turning on. So as the motors were only about £12 I ended up replacing it. With regards to repair, I'm not sure as i've never bothered with that. But I'd doubt a repair would last anyway. As attached to the motor is it's small gearbox, this houses very small narrow plastic gears.. And what happens is these gears unfortunately strip teeth when they age, this then affects the travel length of the lever arm, meaning that it often doesn't reach the micro-switch as it should. Once a few teeth have stripped the motor/gearbox no longer works
I took one apart. Not sure if it's the motor. The motor looks quite simple. But the gearbox gets sticky and the spring is not able to wind the motor back.
John and others, This may amuse you. So I got the motor going the right way round but the small pinion was too short so had to remove that and fit the old longer one. I got the small one off by using a pair of wire cutters to expand it and found underneath a splined shaft about 2. 2 mm dia. Epoxied the new one on and fitted it. I heard the epoxy fail in the middle of the night. Next plan was to pin the gear to the shaft but turned out the shaft was hardened and the 1.0 mm drill slid off. Gave up and went back to looking for a new valve. ..... But if I ground a flat on the side of the shaft and an eccentric pin ...... It is now working but for how long who knows. It helps to be retired and have time for these evolutions.
What stops the motor when the lever cog reaches the microswitch? Is there an internal gear that kicks in that locks the lever in place until the power is removed?
There are manual controls on the side or top of the syncron motor housing but these are mainly used to override the mechanism if say the motor has failed etc. I'm not a specialist in these things but I believe once the motor is at it's maximum travel it acts a bit like a clutch, in that the internals outer part keeps spinning, keeping pressure on the gear mechanism and thus the relay triggered to keep the boiler active. Only when power is removed will the motor stop & the whole mechanism return under spring tension.
@@OrbiterElectronics Thank you so much! 🥰 We've been trying to find the part for hours ! I am in Canada so it's a 120v version but now I know what to look for thanks to you.
@@OrbiterElectronics Thanks for the reply. I wasn't sure about the voltage as some are 110, I thought the control board might reduce the power for this to work. Since then i've found a 230v
Just a quick question. I have the two screw release which was a relief. Once it was of I wanted to test that the valve was not seized. I did move about 5mm. Is this about right....should it move more, I was reluctant to put any pressure when turning.
@@glenn20081965 The valves themselves don't move that much really.. perhaps a quarter turn. You can check its working though once everything is assembled. By making sure that when the valve is open.. both input and output pipes are hot 👍
@@OrbiterElectronics Sorry to bother you again, I was wondering if you had some advice on a specific issue. I've just bought a three-way motorised zone valve head. However, before fitting the new valve I took the cover off to inspect the item. I moved the manual slider across to see if all was ok, on doing this I noticed that the tabs that are supposed to make contact with the two internal switches only barely touch the spring-loaded levers. The tabs only just touch but don't press the switches that activate the boiler. The switched can be heard clicking if pressed with a small screwdriver, but as I say the tabs don't fully engage with the switches when manually operated. I emailed the Amazon seller and he advised that they should fully engage when fitted onto the 3 port valve and that the motor would give more torque. If this was the case, then what would be the purpose of the manual valve?...is the manual valve only supposed to open the valve and nothing else. Is he talking rubbish? I can send back for a replacement, but I thought I would ask before doing so. Thanks in advance.
How do they know where to stop? do they just hold voltage and sit there? I cant quite understand how they dont overheat and catch fire if they dont stop trying to turn. EDIT: Oh, yours has a switch in it that stops it once it reaches its max position, which makes perfect sense... The one I am trying to repair doesn't even have a switch in it for some reason.
Whilst powered, only the cage @2:35 is continually spinning at speed. There is then space between that cage and the inner magnet assembly, this creates pulses. And acts a bit like a magnetic clutch turning an inner hub via reduction gearing, then it turns the small outer brass gear. So as the motor is powered & thus the cage always spinning, via magnetic fields a small rotational force is always kept on the brass gear that will then hold a small water valve open. Only when power is removed can the whole mechanism reverse & return to it's starting position under spring tension. There is no internal friction as such, just magnetic fields being used, followed by reduction gearing to create a small amount of torque to turn the little brass gear. Hope this helps a bit.
hey dude, my drain valve in evap.cooler uses the 24v ac motor. it goes up and down without staying down. should I just by a new drain valve or replace the motor
Confused! Synchronous replacement motor I have bought rotates clockwise as you look at the output gear. I have bought them before and never bothered to check as they fitted and worked in the Landis & Gyr valve. And yes I reversed the wiring knowing it was probably pointless. Result is that the valve normally closed just gets more closed as it were. Have you come across this?
Hi.. Sorry but I can't really help you there :( The reason is that I've not seen enough of these to be able to enlighten you on the direction of rotation. I know that when I was buying my motor I just opted for the one that looked the same & stated that it.."fitted the most common type of valve".... so I guess if there are few types of valve, there must be a few types of motor too and perhaps they differ in a rotational way?
That is what l have been told as well.Either way round O.K.. But does not solve why the heating goes off with water.Have run both together all well,but when water goes off on timer,it turns heating off ??
syd bell .. Perhaps like us you'll have more than one motor & diverter valve.. if the boiler is going off though that sounds like a different issue. If this motor wasn't a fix for us it would have been time for a heating engineer visit.
Great video, really helpful. I don't have a variac to test the synchron stand-alone, would it be okay to attach a 3 pin plug directly to it? (since it's 240v anyway).
Hi.. Yes you could.. Obviously though please be careful when connecting it. Also don't hold the motor when you turn it on just in case there is an internal short, you may just get 240v mains on the motors case!!. If I remember correctly the syncron motor gear only rotates slowly so you'll either see it moving, or it will have failed.
@Mircea Hi.. As far as I know there is no switch inside the motor itself. But there is one in the mechanism the motor is screwed to. The motor is either on or off depending on the signal from the main boiler PCB. The motor not only opens & closes the water valve but it also operates the spring mechanism in the housing it is screwed to, depending on the demand for hot water or heating. You can see this lever mechanism & micro-switch at 4:45. Hope this helps
@Mircea Sorry.. It was my fault, I did see the full comment but forget about answering that bit 😮 When the motor is powered it pulls against the spring, lever & arm mechanism that is attached to the valve, once the mechanism reaches the full extent of it's travel a small lever also presses on the micro-switch telling the boiler & pump to come on. At this point I 'think' the motor is still spinning to hold the gear and mechanism at full travel and the switch depressed. When the heating is switched off, power is cut to the motor & the spring mechanism pulls the lever & arm mechanism back to it's original resting position. The motor gear also turns at this point as the whole mechanism is in reverse due to the return spring tension.
Hi John and all, I have an opposite problem my heating doesn't work but the hot water is fine could it be that the top half is not fitted properly I have changed it and still the same problem, or the valve is stuck in hot water position any comments thanks
Hi.. I assume your talking about the top/bottom half of the valve/motor assembly? If so then yes its important they they fit together properly and that the gear can engage with the mechanism. The mechanism only moves slowly so keep your eye on it. the motor should turn the mechanism until the switch is activated. Assuming you have the same type of motor assembly as in the video you could try moving the valve manually via the small lever on the motor housing, if you try this and the radiators start to get warm, you'll know its either the motor or valve/mechanism not working properly.. PLEASE NOTE that mains voltage are present on and around these parts. If you're not sure it is best to get an engineer to test it for you.
Hi again! Here is the problem: the central heating only works if the hot water side of the programmer is switched on, I cant just have central heating only. I have changed the syncro motor and replaced the whole zone valve but still no joy, do you think the programmer could be faulty, its only 2 years old?
ray holmes Hi Ray.. I'm sorry but I can't really advise on what the problem could be, I'm no specialist where heating is concerned. Although.. I believe a diverter valve can also cause these issues so I've provided a link regarding testing.. This is entirely at your own risk of course as you maybe working around mains voltages here! blog.superwarm.co.uk/ultimate-guide-to-diagnosing-a-faulty-boiler-diverter-valve
In the UK we have 240v AC electrical systems. In the video I'm using a 220-240v AC Honeywell Synchronous motor.. You can see the 230v @50Hz specs stamped on it's case here.. ua-cam.com/video/FX4Tm6kzVnA/v-deo.html
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Great , one of the clearest explanations I've seen so far, many thanks .
With AC it doesn't matter which way the 2 wires are connected that's why the colours are the same I guess the motor only spins one way. My condolences, Good to see you back again, take care.
Thx Coolkeys. Your right. I just had to check the AC theory on a hoover motor and as you said.. It indeed does not make any difference to the direction of rotation.
Thanks
John
Its a synchronous motor that runs in lock step with the 50 Hz AC supply - until it stalls. Being AC is does not matter which way around the terminals are wired. These motors internally use a 'shaded pole' where a short circuit delays the phase on one side that causes a physical asymmetry that determines the direction of rotation.
John - many thanks for getting back. I think I have cracked it. The new motor has an output gear too short to match the actuator head. To solve that I took the gear box off an old unit and fitted it to the new synchronous motor instead of the one shipped. A careful check this morning revealed differences in the gear unit not least a different rotational relationship input to output. Now I am swapping the output gears. Why all the trouble? In this 300 year old house the floors are not level; draining refilling and removing air locks takes forever.
Ah ok... Good to hear your getting along ok with it now. I actually don't believe you'd have any better luck if you're house was brand new.. As nothing seems to work, or fit correctly these days does it.. Hehee 😊
Cheers
John
Sorry to hear of your loss but also good to see you back. It looks like that motor is being 'stalled' at the end of its travel there (to hold against the spring return)... with that and the heat (being on a HW system) no wonder they don't last!
Always strikes me that 24v controls like they use in the US would be better, not just for safety, but for the thicker (and thus more robust) windings on motors and suchlike.
Thanks Chipmunk :) Agreed my friend, the motor is quite a strong device when its running...I've not testing it boes it does seem to just STOP against the microswitch when it's activated, so unless it's got some sort of internal clutch etc (which I doubt) it's under some stress all the time really. Not just in that 'ON' position either. Once power is cut the return spring is really strong to and really whips that gear around thus pulling the mechanism back.
Actually the rather weak metal plates holding this whole thing together bend under the return spring tension :o
Thought I was subbed back to you but it seemed not. I am now though :)
Thanks friend
John
The video is very detailed, i have just noticed that the motor you replaced is a cheap crappy motor that is called synchronous, the motor will burn out very quickly, kust saying😊
Hi, I have a synchron motor but the manual arm falls short of the micro switch/end switch. How can it fall short by about 4mm. Have the gears slipped? If so how can I realign them.
This also means that when it’s called for hot water, the switch isn’t engaged to activate the boiler and pump.
Hope you can help.
Hi Simon.. If I remember correctly my motor was doing the exact same thing as yours & wasn't contacting the mirco-switch at the end of it's travel. So our heating or hot water wasn't turning on. So as the motors were only about £12 I ended up replacing it.
With regards to repair, I'm not sure as i've never bothered with that. But I'd doubt a repair would last anyway. As attached to the motor is it's small gearbox, this houses very small narrow plastic gears.. And what happens is these gears unfortunately strip teeth when they age, this then affects the travel length of the lever arm, meaning that it often doesn't reach the micro-switch as it should. Once a few teeth have stripped the motor/gearbox no longer works
I took one apart. Not sure if it's the motor. The motor looks quite simple. But the gearbox gets sticky and the spring is not able to wind the motor back.
i have a motor of this type 110v 5w whether it can dissipate at a voltage of 220v or something needs to intervene on it.
John and others,
This may amuse you. So I got the motor going the right way round but the small pinion was too short so had to remove that and fit the old longer one. I got the small one off by using a pair of wire cutters to expand it and found underneath a splined shaft about 2. 2 mm dia. Epoxied the new one on and fitted it. I heard the epoxy fail in the middle of the night. Next plan was to pin the gear to the shaft but turned out the shaft was hardened and the 1.0 mm drill slid off. Gave up and went back to looking for a new valve. ..... But if I ground a flat on the side of the shaft and an eccentric pin ...... It is now working but for how long who knows. It helps to be retired and have time for these evolutions.
I guess It doesn't matter how it works.. as long as it works :) *thumbs up*
What stops the motor when the lever cog reaches the microswitch? Is there an internal gear that kicks in that locks the lever in place until the power is removed?
There are manual controls on the side or top of the syncron motor housing but these are mainly used to override the mechanism if say the motor has failed etc.
I'm not a specialist in these things but I believe once the motor is at it's maximum travel it acts a bit like a clutch, in that the internals outer part keeps spinning, keeping pressure on the gear mechanism and thus the relay triggered to keep the boiler active. Only when power is removed will the motor stop & the whole mechanism return under spring tension.
What is the name of the holder that the motor is housed in? I am trying to find this part to replace
The box part on it's own is called the 'head can' I believe & is like this.. tinyurl.com/yjwz4ob8
@@OrbiterElectronics Thank you so much! 🥰 We've been trying to find the part for hours ! I am in Canada so it's a 120v version but now I know what to look for thanks to you.
@@adriiko You're welcome 👍
Your videos are interesting to watch. Great job.
Thanks friend.
Appreciate your video - thanks! Straightforward and most useful - cheers - David.
Thanks David 👍️
@@OrbiterElectronics Bought a replacement motor, this morning from Wolseley's - home to fit it. 10 minutes later: Bingo! Job done - Cheers - David.
@@davidwilliams6334 Good to hear.. Nice job mate 👍
These motor replacement, are they all the same for the different types of valves or are there different types.
I believe there are few varients, but I just picked one from ebay that was the same voltage spec and looked the same as the failed one we had.
@@OrbiterElectronics Thanks for the reply. I wasn't sure about the voltage as some are 110, I thought the control board might reduce the power for this to work. Since then i've found a 230v
Just a quick question. I have the two screw release which was a relief. Once it was of I wanted to test that the valve was not seized. I did move about 5mm. Is this about right....should it move more, I was reluctant to put any pressure when turning.
@@glenn20081965 The valves themselves don't move that much really.. perhaps a quarter turn. You can check its working though once everything is assembled. By making sure that when the valve is open.. both input and output pipes are hot 👍
@@OrbiterElectronics Sorry to bother you again, I was wondering if you had some advice on a specific issue. I've just bought a three-way motorised zone valve head. However, before fitting the new valve I took the cover off to inspect the item. I moved the manual slider across to see if all was ok, on doing this I noticed that the tabs that are supposed to make contact with the two internal switches only barely touch the spring-loaded levers. The tabs only just touch but don't press the switches that activate the boiler. The switched can be heard clicking if pressed with a small screwdriver, but as I say the tabs don't fully engage with the switches when manually operated. I emailed the Amazon seller and he advised that they should fully engage when fitted onto the 3 port valve and that the motor would give more torque. If this was the case, then what would be the purpose of the manual valve?...is the manual valve only supposed to open the valve and nothing else. Is he talking rubbish? I can send back for a replacement, but I thought I would ask before doing so. Thanks in advance.
How do they know where to stop? do they just hold voltage and sit there? I cant quite understand how they dont overheat and catch fire if they dont stop trying to turn. EDIT: Oh, yours has a switch in it that stops it once it reaches its max position, which makes perfect sense... The one I am trying to repair doesn't even have a switch in it for some reason.
Whilst powered, only the cage @2:35 is continually spinning at speed. There is then space between that cage and the inner magnet assembly, this creates pulses. And acts a bit like a magnetic clutch turning an inner hub via reduction gearing, then it turns the small outer brass gear.
So as the motor is powered & thus the cage always spinning, via magnetic fields a small rotational force is always kept on the brass gear that will then hold a small water valve open. Only when power is removed can the whole mechanism reverse & return to it's starting position under spring tension.
There is no internal friction as such, just magnetic fields being used, followed by reduction gearing to create a small amount of torque to turn the little brass gear.
Hope this helps a bit.
Very useful video John. Many thanks for sharing!
+Ashish Pala You're welcome Ashish. Thank you for commenting.
hey dude,
my drain valve in evap.cooler uses the 24v ac motor.
it goes up and down without staying down.
should I just by a new drain valve or replace the motor
Sorry but I'm not a plumber or heating engineer buddy, so I wouldn't like to advise you on the wrong thing to do there. Sorry.
Confused! Synchronous replacement motor I have bought rotates clockwise as you look at the output gear. I have bought them before and never bothered to check as they fitted and worked in the Landis & Gyr valve. And yes I reversed the wiring knowing it was probably pointless. Result is that the valve normally closed just gets more closed as it were. Have you come across this?
Hi.. Sorry but I can't really help you there :( The reason is that I've not seen enough of these to be able to enlighten you on the direction of rotation. I know that when I was buying my motor I just opted for the one that looked the same & stated that it.."fitted the most common type of valve".... so I guess if there are few types of valve, there must be a few types of motor too and perhaps they differ in a rotational way?
Thanks very much, I knew mine was fucked but seeing how they're supposed to operate was useful.
people got kicked off you tube by using the F word...I know you dont mean any harm but You tube monitor comments closely
That is what l have been told as well.Either way round O.K.. But does not solve why the heating goes off with
water.Have run both together all well,but when water goes off on timer,it turns heating off ??
syd bell .. Perhaps like us you'll have more than one motor & diverter valve.. if the boiler is going off though that sounds like a different issue. If this motor wasn't a fix for us it would have been time for a heating engineer visit.
Would normally agree,but we had not hot water or heating until l
changes Syncron motor.
Great video, really helpful. I don't have a variac to test the synchron stand-alone, would it be okay to attach a 3 pin plug directly to it? (since it's 240v anyway).
Hi.. Yes you could.. Obviously though please be careful when connecting it. Also don't hold the motor when you turn it on just in case there is an internal short, you may just get 240v mains on the motors case!!.
If I remember correctly the syncron motor gear only rotates slowly so you'll either see it moving, or it will have failed.
Can someone tell me, where can I purchase this (220-240v)? No luck finding online
Go to ebay and type '240v syncron motor'. You'll see loads of them 👍
@Mircea Hi.. As far as I know there is no switch inside the motor itself. But there is one in the mechanism the motor is screwed to.
The motor is either on or off depending on the signal from the main boiler PCB. The motor not only opens & closes the water valve but it also operates the
spring mechanism in the housing it is screwed to, depending on the demand for hot water or heating.
You can see this lever mechanism & micro-switch at 4:45.
Hope this helps
@Mircea Sorry.. It was my fault, I did see the full comment but forget about answering that bit 😮
When the motor is powered it pulls against the spring, lever & arm mechanism that is attached to the valve, once the mechanism reaches the full extent of it's travel a small lever also presses on the micro-switch telling the boiler & pump to come on. At this point I 'think' the motor is still spinning to hold the gear and mechanism at full travel and the switch depressed.
When the heating is switched off, power is cut to the motor & the spring mechanism pulls the lever & arm mechanism back to it's original resting position. The motor gear also turns at this point as the whole mechanism is in reverse due to the return spring tension.
Great video thanks for sharing. Yes this happen to us recently...
darkbyte2005 Thanks for the comments friend.. Glad the vid was helpful
Hi John and all, I have an opposite problem my heating doesn't work but the hot water is fine could it be that the top half is not fitted properly I have changed it and still the same problem, or the valve is stuck in hot water position any comments thanks
Hi.. I assume your talking about the top/bottom half of the valve/motor assembly? If so then yes its important they they fit together properly and that the gear can engage with the mechanism. The mechanism only moves slowly so keep your eye on it. the motor should turn the mechanism until the switch is activated.
Assuming you have the same type of motor assembly as in the video you could try moving the valve manually via the small lever on the motor housing, if you try this and the radiators start to get warm, you'll know its either the motor or valve/mechanism not working properly.. PLEASE NOTE that mains voltage are present on and around these parts. If you're not sure it is best to get an engineer to test it for you.
If its an AC motor surely it has no polarity on the connections as the supply is alternating at 50hz or am I being thick?
You're quite correct 👍.. I was the one who wasn't thinking. I guess I just spend too much time with DC ☺️
Hi again! Here is the problem: the central heating only works if the hot water side of the programmer is switched on, I cant just have central heating only. I have changed the syncro motor and replaced the whole zone valve but still no joy, do you think the programmer could be faulty, its only 2 years old?
ray holmes Hi Ray.. I'm sorry but I can't really advise on what the problem could be, I'm no specialist where heating is concerned.
Although.. I believe a diverter valve can also cause these issues so I've provided a link regarding testing.. This is entirely at your own risk of course as you maybe working around mains voltages here!
blog.superwarm.co.uk/ultimate-guide-to-diagnosing-a-faulty-boiler-diverter-valve
See John Ward YT series in the 3 port valve. It is actually a very clever system
the ones here in canada are 24v ac
Just be careful the orange wire goes live when the micro switch is made
Hi just fitted one of these but still no CH ! Does it matter if I have connected the wiring to the motor the wrong way round???
Hi.. No it's an AC motor so it doesn't matter.
Excellent video
Thank you 👍
Thank you 🙏
You're welcome 👍
Good video
Sorry about your dad
Thanks mate.. It's been over 4 years now but we still miss him every single day.
They are 24V AC not 240
In the UK we have 240v AC electrical systems. In the video I'm using a 220-240v AC Honeywell Synchronous motor.. You can see the 230v @50Hz specs stamped on
it's case here.. ua-cam.com/video/FX4Tm6kzVnA/v-deo.html
Sorry about your dad
Thank you.