Retired Army. I was once an 0-4 MAJ and later MAJ-P in an 0-6 COL G3 OPS staff slot for about 10 months. I was the major amongst the council of colonels and visiting generals. The highers noticed the successful heavy lifting of our shop. It absolutely made me ready to advance to O-5 LTC for command and staff slots. The higher pay would have been nice, but I was proud to wear my gold cluster and my staff called me ‘colonel.’ And one has to have faith in and know how to use the ‘gonculator.’
Here is a different perspective. In 2006 I had been selected to the rank of Master Gunnery Sergeant (E-9) and received orders to a different command. As soon as I began checking in, the Sergeant Major told me that the Colonel would be frocking me with the frocking date of 1 March (2006).I told him the Sergeant Major that my actual promotion date would be 1 April, so it would not be worth the trouble and I would rather just wait. In the Sergeant Major's words, "Master Guns, we all belong to the old man. We are his possessions, and he wants a Master Gunnery Sergeant in your position since he rates one. You will be frocked on 1 March." And so, I was frocked as a Master Gunnery Sergeant for one month and was actually promoted the next month. The bottom line (at least in my case) was that there was no personal choice involved; the gaining command - the Colonel - made the choice.
I would say that this fits with my overall view. Frocking should only be done when it is supportive of the needs of the command and not because the individual wants it.
Chuck, all of the services now have the authority to grant "temporary" promotions, which provide the pay and rank. While this new authority wasn't intended to be replacement for frocking, it certainly has the option of being used that way. The Navy seemed to use frocking much more than the Army did IMHO. I remember a BDE CDR (later a two star) who took command and served for 6 months as an LTC.
@@the_bureaucrat I believe that the "new and improved permanent temporary authority" is are already accounted for budget wise, as Congress set caps for each rank. The still on the book wartime/national emergency temporary promotion authority as no caps, but it would have been funded out of OCO had the services chosen to use it. The budgeting potentially gets ugly you consider retirement implications.
“A man is what he’s paid for”, Fort Apache the movie 1948. If DFAS says you are an O-4 that’s what you are. Frocking use to be limited to flag officers going into positions at joint headquarters or dealing with foreign militaries. Throughout a career you’ll end up filling a higher slot because that’s the Army. Do you frock every PFCIC because they’re filling a SGT slot?
Great discussion. The other time frocking matters, IMHO, is when working w/ Allies & Partners. They can be rank conscious, often to put it mildly. In my experience, even for command positions, I declined to be frocked. If my Soldiers didn’t know who was in charge, then the color (or shape) of my rank insignia wasn’t going to matter. These are the exact words I used as my rationale for declining to be frocked.
I like how you say "frocking matters" because you are 100% right. It has a specific and valuable role in the military. And a role that should not be misused.
Hey first and I agree don’t accept or ask for a frock. The only caveat is if you’re in a green tab position where the authority out weighs the rank. Also, once the MAJ (P) is promoted then that person changes from rising star to the junior LTC waiting for the command board to transfer from staff to line.
@@the_bureaucratyep, almost sucks as much as the pogue, now FOBit, who gets the same 2.5 days leave (& more mess hall desserts) than you do - at half the a$$pain & 10% of the risk.
Sometimes you need the rank to do the job. From personal experience this usually comes in when you need to do work well outside of your battalion/group.
Yeah, when you need to travel far away from your chain of command. That makes sense. I could see sending a frocked MAJ-P on a TDY mission at another command.
I agree to not use or be frocked. I've had a couple of experiences over the years to serve in a role above my rank and managed to do generally ok as the rank I was but working in the higher role. Most officers even senior to me, but whose role was to support me did so professionally, with a couple of exceptions. There are always exceptions aren't there? 😂 Those are stories for over a beer though. The thing I learned as enlisted and as a cadet was that no matter your rank, if it becomes your duty to serve in a higher role, do so with enthusiasm but also humility and a willingness to learn everything you can while making decisions you must to the best of your ability. I was fortunate to have such good and wise teachers and mentors when I was young. Many back then were Vietnam veterans who learned from bad experiences themselves.
I transferred to shore duty to fill a Navy airman billet, and although I was frocked to Petty Officer 3rd Class two months after arriving, I was still stuck performing airman duties. I didn't enjoy it. Life on a ship is completely different - there, a Petty Officer 3rd Class has more leadership opportunities and responsibilities.
@ The only place where rank didn't matter for me was being an air crewman on the P-3 Orion. Regardless of rank, your primary specialty in the aircraft took priority. It was one of the few environments where officers and enlisted personnel were on a first-name basis. The only exception was emptying the toilet waste container during post-flight - that task still followed the chain of command.
Same thing with Brevit Promotions, all officers have to wait for their pin on date. It would create a lot of animosity from those that had to “wait their turn.”
Yeah, just about any time the wait gets long, animosity builds. That happened with the Senate confirmation of GOs and you see it with National Guard promotions too.
In the eighties we (Navy Enlisted) were frocked when the promotion lists came out. I liked wearing the higher rank, got me in the Acey Duecy club when I was a frocked E-5. And it got me out of all the E-4 shit details. I think the longest I went was 5 months frocked before my pay date. Your actual pay date was computed using your Navy wide Advancement score and time in service/time in grade. Some people were paid immediately, the rest in dribs and drabs over the next six months. But all were paid by the date of the next Navy wide advancxcement exams. Only bummer was if you got punished at Article 15 / Captains Mast, you lost 2 ranks. Your frocked rank evaporated, and you got reduced one real rank. I saw a lot of people go from frocked E-5 to E-3 all in one shot.
I served as a "Shop supervisor" LPO, on a navy ship, as a E-3, all the , Moms , left . 1- month later, transfered by Navy, Dept. to another command. Also being "Frocked" you still get "PAID" @ lower amount.
In the Navy in the 70s & 80s they initially would frock everyone when that promotion cycle came up. Then it was changed to be that you had to be serving in a billet of the next higher pay grade. I was frocked to E6 and E7/Chief Petty Officer. It worked for me. Everyone considered you to be that new pay grade and expected you to perform such.
You hit on a good point...if it works, it's not a bad deal. I think some of the negative comments are less about the practice itself and more about how it gets used and how it plays out.
I believe the proper term used to be "Brevet" meaning they wear the rank but only get paid for the lower rank. My impression of the word "Frocked" is the actual pinning on of the rank whether or not the individual is receiving the pay...the difference being between "Rank" and "Pay Grade".
Brevet still exist and you do get paid for the temporary rank. It also counts toward your high three retirement pay. There are a handful of hard to fill positions the Army does this for, typically hard jobs in crappy locations. Think an 06 staff position in Korea. It's not a bad deal and much better than frocking. Like Chuck says, it works in select cases because it primarily benefits the organization.
@@danielwelsh9527 I served in the Army almost ten years (as an NCO) and I understand the "catch all phrase" for the good of the service. Thanks for the brief back.
I was frocked, had more of a shit pile to deal with and the same pay. You don’t get paid that rank you are frocked at until your boat space is open. Well, I was medically retired before that date and the rank went away and my pay stayed. Don’t care now, the Marine Corps is the past and I did 17 years 10 months. 100% with CRSC.
I think you hit on a key point about "respect". When you work with people who outrank you, there's going to be less respect. But I always felt that when the lower level of respect was based on being of lower rank, the relationship was more genuine.
Gonkulator is what my wife calls the GPS lol. I don't know where she got that word, but she uses it to describe any map/directions program on the phone or in a vehicle. You make some great points about frocking. This is mostly an O thing v an E thing, but perhaps an example of how something like this can cause problems is Gov. Walz's issues. NOT making a political statement with that, but it is kind of instructive. Don't know if the Army still uses the acting Corporal and Sergeant ranks, but at one point it was fairly common. You lacked an NCO, but had a good PFC/SPC available and you temporarily promoted them (minus pay) to fill a void. Once a qualified CPL or SGT came in you went back to the former rank (praying that there wasn't a dress uniform event twixt those times). Or, said SPC made the cutoff for SGT, or the PFC got selected for E4. It sounds wonky, but it did work OK. Another venue was taking a SP5 to SGT, but that whole specialist ranks above E4 is a whole other rabbit hole.
Gonculator comes from an episode of Hogan's Heroes (hogansheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Gonculator). As far as the "good SPC"...once upon a time I was running a clothing issue facility and we had this SPC with a huge "cheerleader voice"...you could hear her from a mile away. So we had her receive incoming units and give them their initial brief in the parking lot. She caught a lot of crap for telling NCOs what to do, so we stuck CPL rank on her (same pay right?)...and all of a sudden, the complaints stopped.
16 днів тому
Never heard the term "frocked" when it happened to me they called them 'paper stripes' and I just ended up with duties from both ranks.
the only draw back is if one screws up and gets in trouble , very could get De Frocked and bust down.. Saqy Defrocked from E5 to E4 then busted to E3. That will hurt, seen it done many times.
I signed up for one year of service, with an option to extend to three. That was TWELVE YEARS ago. I don't want to be frocked. I want to be discharged.
@SuperCulverin, I understand. I was talking with my Father ( retired MstSgt ) about me thinking about getting out after 10 years. He pointed out i was over the halfway point towards retirement, and additionally i'd be getting a paycheck on the 1st of Every month, for Life ...IF i stayed in. Mentioned that with his paycheck tied to COLA, he was making more in his retirement check than in his pay when he retired ('64). It was hard for me to comprehend, but he was so far superior to me in intelligence etc, i went with his advice. Stayed in, did 20 (SeaBees) and retired. Took about another 20 years after retiring at 50% to break even / make as much as my active duty pay was. That was in 2004, and it's been growing every year the Gov't has approved a COLA increase. Invest Today / Reap for LIFE . . . ☆
@SuperCulverin, I fell ya...the thing is, you're gonna work and its gonna suck. Every civilian job I ever had found a way to be just as miserable as the military (just different ways). So the question is, do you bit the bullet, do the time, and get the pension? Or do you walk away and get screwed by someone else?
@@the_bureaucrat Pension? There is no pension. I don't draw any pay, either. And now I'm funding the Colonel's operation from my personal savings. I hear the Top Sergeant is going to stop by today with a new fairy tale, hoping I'll re-up for another limitless tour. I already did THIRTY-SIX movies, and it doesn't look like production is going to wrap within my lifetime. I want off this ride.
I have never understood the practice of frocking or brevetting. It's always seemed to me to be a convenience for bean counters... how to get 0-6's work out of an O-5's paycheck. If somebody is on the promotion list, then **promote** them fer frig's sake. And the frocking of enlisted personnel is just plain stupid. DoD has granted the services the right to temporary promotions with pay so an officer can fill a billet and this practice should entirely replace frocking.
It's always odd to me who thinks this is a good idea. Command or the bean counters or the individuals. Seems that it changes from situation to situation.
@@the_bureaucrat But, respectfully, DoD isn't a personal situation business. While some minor accommodations can be made, personnel decisions are largely a cookie-cutter, one-better-fit-you-or-else process. They need a troop in 'x' position with 'y' qualifications. You get to be that billet-filler. But if that billet requires the troop to be 'z' rank, then promote them and be done with it.
I don’t know what it’s like now, but in the 90-2000’s, enlisted tankers always served above their pay grades. Are officers so entitled that they have to have a special term for doing the job above their pay grades? Eff me, but the entitlement is real for these ring knockers from my taxpayer funded academies!🤬🤬🤬
I think you are referring to just "doing the job above your rank". That's pretty common across the force because force structure documents want higher ranked people than the service has. "Frocking" is about putting on the rank above you before you have orders granting that rank.
@@owensomers8572 I always understood the importance of the chain of command but also believed that no one fights harder than when they are fighting for family or friends. I called many a senior officer or senior NCO by their first name when alone or out of uniform, probably not the smartest thing but we became the kind of friends you willingly made sacrifices for.
Personally frocked. A justified requirement based on responsibilities of coded position when interfacing with other military, government, and NGO agencies. The pay can wait accordingly.
I disagree. I took command of an 8-inch Nuke battery in Germany in 1979 as a newly promoted 1LT. I had just finished three months in grade and two years on active duty. Other battery commanders were Captains; indeed, my original commander when I came in as a 2LT 18 months earlier was still commanding a sister unit. By job, I was a peer; by rank, I wasn't. At that time, there was a provision to accelerate promotions to Captain for 1LTs in command after 9 months. The Battalion Commander requested an early promotion and also requested I be frocked to Captain. I completed a regular 18-month command tour as a 1LT. My early promotion came through two weeks after I gave up command - I was promoted in April vs. standard promotion in June. At the time I gave up command, my XO and Fire Direction Officer were both 1LTs. It was awkward as a 1LT commander among Captain commanders. Had I been frocked, I could have dealt with them as peer commanders and been able to deal with the commanders of the maintenance and supply units that were supporting my unit. Every time I engaged them, I was not treated as a "real" commander. I was often told to "have my commander call" because they thought I was simply an acting commander because the real commander was temporarily out. Had I had the railroad tracks of a Captain, I could have moved things better, faster, and easier - without the "eye roll" I got as a 1LT with green tabs. I'd get, "You're the REAL Battery Commander?" Frocking would have saved a lot of hassle.
Oh, we agree. I view green tab frocking as supporting the needs of the command. It's curious in your story that your chain of command didn't understand that.
It's interesting to see how the Army views frocking. For Navy enlisted advancement, it is the standard to frock a newly selected Sailor. If you don’t get frocked as a Navy enlisted Sailors, you messed up. It's a bit embarrassing because it shows that your command does have full confidence in you. Navy officers, on the other hand, do not normally get frocked, probably for similar reasons that you stated. P. S. I see someone doesn't understand Navy culture or the Chiefs Mess. If our Chiefs Initiation Season is just harassment then why do so many Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Guardians volunteer to go through the process every year and become Chiefs?
It's a bad practice. I have seen navy chiefs do it, after their ridiculous "Season" harassment program, and the entre process seems very un-military. Should every E-1 be "frocked" to E-2 before leaving basic military training?
Dont knock Chief Initiation Season until you try it, 😉. What you see from the outside is not the true scope of the training. Yes, it is leadership training not harassment. From the outside looking in Boot Camp or Basic Training looks like harassment and hazing but I doubt you would say that. CPO Initiation is like a Boot Camp refresher along with a lot of leadership and bureaucracy training. You may not understand Navy culture or the Chiefs Mess. If our Chiefs Initiation Season is just harassment then why do so many Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Guardians volunteer to go through the process every year and become Chiefs?
@@Doc_Egan What makes you think I didn't see it from the inside? Maybe you should look at the other services' NCO academies. They don't act like bully 12 year olds.
@@MickLafitte I can tell because a Chief would not talk about it the way you did. If you did see it from the inside you must not have finished it and gotten to the end where you would understand the "reasons for every pointed barb".
In the Pentagon, one of the things I've seen the soon-to-be-Chiefs do is walk around getting signatures from all the Chiefs...It makes them very good at navigating the offices.
I served 4yr enlisted 1990s. I'd say any E-4, Spc with no problems or personnel actions should get Cpl after 24mo, 2yr. Spec get all kinds of jobs, roles. The "test" or excuses bit gets stale after 12mo-16mo. NCO ranks, promotions 1990s was a 💩 show.
@ Dave when I was in I knew only 2 corporals both were given the rank as a test to become e-5 all the other guys that I saw get promoted when strate from e-4 to e 5 I made e-4 in 16 months
I think the Army has been experimenting with using CPL as a milestone rank for people who complete training, but haven't been selected yet...something like that.
he, all ready, got selected and just waiting to be promoted: the 1st Day of being in that (Billet) Office IS promotion Day; Congratulations see you at the O-Clue drinks are on you;
I mean sounds like thuis is just US milltray having a slow period what one might call peace time... But as we know tythe US has no such concectp of war time and peace time being deffert at all... So in the US milltray is just a slow period... Like I mean in the heat of the US shooting war in WW2 clling the US at home in wartime is an insult to the US and being extemly genur to every one in the shooter war part of WW2... So yeah 100% up bage that man so he has correct Insiglia and not a walking war cerome disgused him self as a lower rank! Which yes not having correct insiga is one of the worse real warcrimes... as anyone who understand why fighting insane terrorist is so hard... Also like I mean isf frocking was a thing then what about all those war tim premostions ij WW2? Like is Mccather a truie 5 star like gorege wasitoin is? He one can argue was frocked to all his roles because the man is the reason wny war time premosion is a thing and peacetime for the US millytray is best left fatasy that it is in reality...
The difference with a war time promotion or a "brevet" promotion is that the person is officially the rank they wear. When they "frock", they wear a rank that they haven't gotten orders for yet.
Hey first and I agree don’t accept or ask for a frock. The only caveat is if you’re in a green tab position where the authority out weighs the rank. Also, once the MAJ (P) is promoted then that person changes from rising star to the junior LTC waiting for the command board to transfer from staff to line.
Retired Army. I was once an 0-4 MAJ and later MAJ-P in an 0-6 COL G3 OPS staff slot for about 10 months. I was the major amongst the council of colonels and visiting generals. The highers noticed the successful heavy lifting of our shop. It absolutely made me ready to advance to O-5 LTC for command and staff slots. The higher pay would have been nice, but I was proud to wear my gold cluster and my staff called me ‘colonel.’ And one has to have faith in and know how to use the ‘gonculator.’
That's a good point. The MAJ-P who successfully swims with the LTCs & COLs has a special sense of confidence the day they finally pin LTC on him.
Here is a different perspective. In 2006 I had been selected to the rank of Master Gunnery Sergeant (E-9) and received orders to a different command. As soon as I began checking in, the Sergeant Major told me that the Colonel would be frocking me with the frocking date of 1 March (2006).I told him the Sergeant Major that my actual promotion date would be 1 April, so it would not be worth the trouble and I would rather just wait. In the Sergeant Major's words, "Master Guns, we all belong to the old man. We are his possessions, and he wants a Master Gunnery Sergeant in your position since he rates one. You will be frocked on 1 March." And so, I was frocked as a Master Gunnery Sergeant for one month and was actually promoted the next month. The bottom line (at least in my case) was that there was no personal choice involved; the gaining command - the Colonel - made the choice.
I would say that this fits with my overall view. Frocking should only be done when it is supportive of the needs of the command and not because the individual wants it.
There’s a reason they use the word frock. There’s another word that has an “f” a “c” and a “k” and also describes what happens to you….😂
👍Not every promotion makes life better.
Chuck, all of the services now have the authority to grant "temporary" promotions, which provide the pay and rank. While this new authority wasn't intended to be replacement for frocking, it certainly has the option of being used that way.
The Navy seemed to use frocking much more than the Army did IMHO. I remember a BDE CDR (later a two star) who took command and served for 6 months as an LTC.
I suspect that somewhere someone worries about run away manpower pay caused by those temporary promotions.
@@the_bureaucrat I believe that the "new and improved permanent temporary authority" is are already accounted for budget wise, as Congress set caps for each rank. The still on the book wartime/national emergency temporary promotion authority as no caps, but it would have been funded out of OCO had the services chosen to use it.
The budgeting potentially gets ugly you consider retirement implications.
“A man is what he’s paid for”, Fort Apache the movie 1948. If DFAS says you are an O-4 that’s what you are. Frocking use to be limited to flag officers going into positions at joint headquarters or dealing with foreign militaries. Throughout a career you’ll end up filling a higher slot because that’s the Army. Do you frock every PFCIC because they’re filling a SGT slot?
Was frocked to captain from 1lt. You'd be surprised how much BS from other Captains stopped dead in it's tracks when that happened.
@kashtalambert3452, I could see the BS stopping. LT is seen as such a junior, novice rank. What CPT spans a much broader swath of experience levels.
Great discussion. The other time frocking matters, IMHO, is when working w/ Allies & Partners. They can be rank conscious, often to put it mildly. In my experience, even for command positions, I declined to be frocked. If my Soldiers didn’t know who was in charge, then the color (or shape) of my rank insignia wasn’t going to matter. These are the exact words I used as my rationale for declining to be frocked.
I like how you say "frocking matters" because you are 100% right. It has a specific and valuable role in the military. And a role that should not be misused.
Hey first and I agree don’t accept or ask for a frock. The only caveat is if you’re in a green tab position where the authority out weighs the rank. Also, once the MAJ (P) is promoted then that person changes from rising star to the junior LTC waiting for the command board to transfer from staff to line.
You are exactly right.
I got frocked and it was lame. I did all the work of an E-7 as an E-6 for close to a year.
Sucks.
@@the_bureaucratyep, almost sucks as much as the pogue, now FOBit, who gets the same 2.5 days leave (& more mess hall desserts) than you do - at half the a$$pain & 10% of the risk.
Sometimes you need the rank to do the job. From personal experience this usually comes in when you need to do work well outside of your battalion/group.
Yeah, when you need to travel far away from your chain of command. That makes sense. I could see sending a frocked MAJ-P on a TDY mission at another command.
I agree to not use or be frocked. I've had a couple of experiences over the years to serve in a role above my rank and managed to do generally ok as the rank I was but working in the higher role. Most officers even senior to me, but whose role was to support me did so professionally, with a couple of exceptions. There are always exceptions aren't there? 😂 Those are stories for over a beer though.
The thing I learned as enlisted and as a cadet was that no matter your rank, if it becomes your duty to serve in a higher role, do so with enthusiasm but also humility and a willingness to learn everything you can while making decisions you must to the best of your ability. I was fortunate to have such good and wise teachers and mentors when I was young. Many back then were Vietnam veterans who learned from bad experiences themselves.
I like your point about serving with "enthusiasm, but also humility"...Anything that helps an officer achieve that goal is beneficial
I transferred to shore duty to fill a Navy airman billet, and although I was frocked to Petty Officer 3rd Class two months after arriving, I was still stuck performing airman duties. I didn't enjoy it. Life on a ship is completely different - there, a Petty Officer 3rd Class has more leadership opportunities and responsibilities.
Oh, that is an interesting nuance. If you get frocked, you might still have to do some of the scut jobs of your real rank...that would be problematic.
A 3rd class doesn’t have leadership responsibilities 😂
@ The only place where rank didn't matter for me was being an air crewman on the P-3 Orion. Regardless of rank, your primary specialty in the aircraft took priority. It was one of the few environments where officers and enlisted personnel were on a first-name basis. The only exception was emptying the toilet waste container during post-flight - that task still followed the chain of command.
@@mr.luisanthonydivito3585 a 3rd class doesn’t have any leadership responsibilities
Same thing with Brevit Promotions, all officers have to wait for their pin on date. It would create a lot of animosity from those that had to “wait their turn.”
Yeah, just about any time the wait gets long, animosity builds. That happened with the Senate confirmation of GOs and you see it with National Guard promotions too.
In the eighties we (Navy Enlisted) were frocked when the promotion lists came out. I liked wearing the higher rank, got me in the Acey Duecy club when I was a frocked E-5. And it got me out of all the E-4 shit details. I think the longest I went was 5 months frocked before my pay date. Your actual pay date was computed using your Navy wide Advancement score and time in service/time in grade. Some people were paid immediately, the rest in dribs and drabs over the next six months. But all were paid by the date of the next Navy wide advancxcement exams. Only bummer was if you got punished at Article 15 / Captains Mast, you lost 2 ranks. Your frocked rank evaporated, and you got reduced one real rank. I saw a lot of people go from frocked E-5 to E-3 all in one shot.
Interesting. I think that when it is a widely held practice it makes an entirely different kind of good sense.
I served as a "Shop supervisor" LPO, on a navy ship, as a E-3, all the , Moms , left . 1- month later, transfered by Navy, Dept. to another command. Also being "Frocked" you still get "PAID" @ lower amount.
Yeah...deep in my heart, if you don't pay me the higher rank...don't give me the rank.
In the Navy in the 70s & 80s they initially would frock everyone when that promotion cycle came up. Then it was changed to be that you had to be serving in a billet of the next higher pay grade. I was frocked to E6 and E7/Chief Petty Officer. It worked for me. Everyone considered you to be that new pay grade and expected you to perform such.
You hit on a good point...if it works, it's not a bad deal. I think some of the negative comments are less about the practice itself and more about how it gets used and how it plays out.
I believe the proper term used to be "Brevet" meaning they wear the rank but only get paid for the lower rank. My impression of the word "Frocked" is the actual pinning on of the rank whether or not the individual is receiving the pay...the difference being between "Rank" and "Pay Grade".
Brevet used to be the term but not in a long time. It was declared obsolete in 1922 and was used only sparingly after the Civil War ended in 1865.
@@danielhillenburg4483 Nice brief back...Thanks
Brevet still exist and you do get paid for the temporary rank. It also counts toward your high three retirement pay. There are a handful of hard to fill positions the Army does this for, typically hard jobs in crappy locations. Think an 06 staff position in Korea. It's not a bad deal and much better than frocking. Like Chuck says, it works in select cases because it primarily benefits the organization.
@@danielwelsh9527 I served in the Army almost ten years (as an NCO) and I understand the "catch all phrase" for the good of the service. Thanks for the brief back.
Personally, I like the pay more than the rank.
I was frocked, had more of a shit pile to deal with and the same pay. You don’t get paid that rank you are frocked at until your boat space is open. Well, I was medically retired before that date and the rank went away and my pay stayed. Don’t care now, the Marine Corps is the past and I did 17 years 10 months. 100% with CRSC.
That's part of how I feel about it...crap work for no more pay...might as well let people know you're punching up.
Even for enlisted...in the us army signal corps some E-4 were appointed E-5 SGT everyone knew who they were. They were obeyed but respect was minimal
I think you hit on a key point about "respect". When you work with people who outrank you, there's going to be less respect. But I always felt that when the lower level of respect was based on being of lower rank, the relationship was more genuine.
Gonkulator is what my wife calls the GPS lol. I don't know where she got that word, but she uses it to describe any map/directions program on the phone or in a vehicle.
You make some great points about frocking. This is mostly an O thing v an E thing, but perhaps an example of how something like this can cause problems is Gov. Walz's issues. NOT making a political statement with that, but it is kind of instructive.
Don't know if the Army still uses the acting Corporal and Sergeant ranks, but at one point it was fairly common. You lacked an NCO, but had a good PFC/SPC available and you temporarily promoted them (minus pay) to fill a void. Once a qualified CPL or SGT came in you went back to the former rank (praying that there wasn't a dress uniform event twixt those times). Or, said SPC made the cutoff for SGT, or the PFC got selected for E4. It sounds wonky, but it did work OK. Another venue was taking a SP5 to SGT, but that whole specialist ranks above E4 is a whole other rabbit hole.
Gonculator comes from an episode of Hogan's Heroes (hogansheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Gonculator).
As far as the "good SPC"...once upon a time I was running a clothing issue facility and we had this SPC with a huge "cheerleader voice"...you could hear her from a mile away. So we had her receive incoming units and give them their initial brief in the parking lot.
She caught a lot of crap for telling NCOs what to do, so we stuck CPL rank on her (same pay right?)...and all of a sudden, the complaints stopped.
Never heard the term "frocked" when it happened to me they called them 'paper stripes' and I just ended up with duties from both ranks.
ARMY here 78-92.
Seen Spec - 4 s get put up to E -5
ACTING JACK .
The E-4 Mafia gave him an attitude check because it went to his head.
@carlcolvin8320...Ohhhh...I didn't think of that one. And E4 frocked to E5, that would have been a recipe for chaos.
@ 🤣They did that to me to because I had to wait for a slot in PLDC
Good advice
Thanks.
If you're going TDY early in your tenure to represent your unit at a large gathering, I would recommend frocking for the "wasta" effect.
Yeah, that's the situation where it may be in the command's best interest to bump you up a bit.
Spent over 7yrs in the Marines, never heard of frocking until GITMO.
That's probably a testament to how carefully this kind of smoke & mirrors has to be shielded from the junior enlisted.
the only draw back is if one screws up and gets in trouble , very could get De Frocked and bust down.. Saqy Defrocked from E5 to E4 then busted to E3. That will hurt, seen it done many times.
Yep. Seen that.
That would be miserable. Never thought about that.
I signed up for one year of service, with an option to extend to three. That was TWELVE YEARS ago.
I don't want to be frocked.
I want to be discharged.
Haha, if you've already done 12 you might as well do 20!😍
@SuperCulverin,
I understand. I was talking with my Father ( retired MstSgt ) about me thinking about getting out after 10 years. He pointed out i was over the halfway point towards retirement, and additionally i'd be getting a paycheck on the 1st of Every month, for Life ...IF i stayed in. Mentioned that with his paycheck tied to COLA, he was making more in his retirement check than in his pay when he retired ('64). It was hard for me to comprehend, but he was so far superior to me in intelligence etc, i went with his advice. Stayed in, did 20 (SeaBees) and retired. Took about another 20 years after retiring at 50% to break even / make as much as my active duty pay was. That was in 2004, and it's been growing every year the Gov't has approved a COLA increase. Invest Today / Reap for LIFE . . . ☆
@SuperCulverin, I fell ya...the thing is, you're gonna work and its gonna suck. Every civilian job I ever had found a way to be just as miserable as the military (just different ways). So the question is, do you bit the bullet, do the time, and get the pension? Or do you walk away and get screwed by someone else?
@@the_bureaucrat Pension? There is no pension. I don't draw any pay, either. And now I'm funding the Colonel's operation from my personal savings. I hear the Top Sergeant is going to stop by today with a new fairy tale, hoping I'll re-up for another limitless tour. I already did THIRTY-SIX movies, and it doesn't look like production is going to wrap within my lifetime.
I want off this ride.
I have never understood the practice of frocking or brevetting. It's always seemed to me to be a convenience for bean counters... how to get 0-6's work out of an O-5's paycheck. If somebody is on the promotion list, then **promote** them fer frig's sake.
And the frocking of enlisted personnel is just plain stupid.
DoD has granted the services the right to temporary promotions with pay so an officer can fill a billet and this practice should entirely replace frocking.
It's always odd to me who thinks this is a good idea. Command or the bean counters or the individuals. Seems that it changes from situation to situation.
@@the_bureaucrat But, respectfully, DoD isn't a personal situation business. While some minor accommodations can be made, personnel decisions are largely a cookie-cutter, one-better-fit-you-or-else process. They need a troop in 'x' position with 'y' qualifications. You get to be that billet-filler. But if that billet requires the troop to be 'z' rank, then promote them and be done with it.
79-86 Navy. Frocking had to be requested. I was against it but was frocked anyway in a group ceremony.
So it had to be requested and you were frocked anyway? Are you saying you requested it?
@@owensomers8572 Did not request it. Was directed to attend the ceremony anyway.
@@markhatfield5621 You sound like a man of conviction! 😘
It's funny. Sometimes the command really pushes it.
I don’t know what it’s like now, but in the 90-2000’s, enlisted tankers always served above their pay grades. Are officers so entitled that they have to have a special term for doing the job above their pay grades? Eff me, but the entitlement is real for these ring knockers from my taxpayer funded academies!🤬🤬🤬
I think you are referring to just "doing the job above your rank". That's pretty common across the force because force structure documents want higher ranked people than the service has. "Frocking" is about putting on the rank above you before you have orders granting that rank.
If I was going into a bureaucratic position I would rather use first names than have to call everyone in the office “Sir”.
Across my career, most staff sections I was part of were pretty much on a first name basis, with the exception of "the old man."
@@owensomers8572 I always understood the importance of the chain of command but also believed that no one fights harder than when they are fighting for family or friends. I called many a senior officer or senior NCO by their first name when alone or out of uniform, probably not the smartest thing but we became the kind of friends you willingly made sacrifices for.
I've found that how and when you use "sir" is an artform all its own.
Personally frocked. A justified requirement based on responsibilities of coded position when interfacing with other military, government, and NGO agencies. The pay can wait accordingly.
I can see that being useful outside US federal agencies.
I was frocked to GySgt, I'm throwing the BS flag on this one! It was great.
Yeah, but being a GySgt is great. 🫡
I disagree. I took command of an 8-inch Nuke battery in Germany in 1979 as a newly promoted 1LT. I had just finished three months in grade and two years on active duty. Other battery commanders were Captains; indeed, my original commander when I came in as a 2LT 18 months earlier was still commanding a sister unit. By job, I was a peer; by rank, I wasn't. At that time, there was a provision to accelerate promotions to Captain for 1LTs in command after 9 months. The Battalion Commander requested an early promotion and also requested I be frocked to Captain. I completed a regular 18-month command tour as a 1LT. My early promotion came through two weeks after I gave up command - I was promoted in April vs. standard promotion in June. At the time I gave up command, my XO and Fire Direction Officer were both 1LTs. It was awkward as a 1LT commander among Captain commanders. Had I been frocked, I could have dealt with them as peer commanders and been able to deal with the commanders of the maintenance and supply units that were supporting my unit. Every time I engaged them, I was not treated as a "real" commander. I was often told to "have my commander call" because they thought I was simply an acting commander because the real commander was temporarily out. Had I had the railroad tracks of a Captain, I could have moved things better, faster, and easier - without the "eye roll" I got as a 1LT with green tabs. I'd get, "You're the REAL Battery Commander?" Frocking would have saved a lot of hassle.
Oh, we agree. I view green tab frocking as supporting the needs of the command. It's curious in your story that your chain of command didn't understand that.
IMO, Frock is a fancy term for Fake. Regards!✊🏼
I tend to agree.
It's interesting to see how the Army views frocking. For Navy enlisted advancement, it is the standard to frock a newly selected Sailor. If you don’t get frocked as a Navy enlisted Sailors, you messed up. It's a bit embarrassing because it shows that your command does have full confidence in you. Navy officers, on the other hand, do not normally get frocked, probably for similar reasons that you stated.
P. S. I see someone doesn't understand Navy culture or the Chiefs Mess. If our Chiefs Initiation Season is just harassment then why do so many Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Guardians volunteer to go through the process every year and become Chiefs?
@Doc_Egan, I agree...its interesting how this practice gets viewed by the services and I suspect that it also varies with time.
It's a bad practice. I have seen navy chiefs do it, after their ridiculous "Season" harassment program, and the entre process seems very un-military. Should every E-1 be "frocked" to E-2 before leaving basic military training?
Dont knock Chief Initiation Season until you try it, 😉. What you see from the outside is not the true scope of the training. Yes, it is leadership training not harassment. From the outside looking in Boot Camp or Basic Training looks like harassment and hazing but I doubt you would say that. CPO Initiation is like a Boot Camp refresher along with a lot of leadership and bureaucracy training. You may not understand Navy culture or the Chiefs Mess. If our Chiefs Initiation Season is just harassment then why do so many Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Guardians volunteer to go through the process every year and become Chiefs?
@@Doc_Egan What makes you think I didn't see it from the inside? Maybe you should look at the other services' NCO academies. They don't act like bully 12 year olds.
@@MickLafitte I can tell because a Chief would not talk about it the way you did. If you did see it from the inside you must not have finished it and gotten to the end where you would understand the "reasons for every pointed barb".
In the Pentagon, one of the things I've seen the soon-to-be-Chiefs do is walk around getting signatures from all the Chiefs...It makes them very good at navigating the offices.
@@the_bureaucrat Very different from the season at Ft. Meade.
Same in the army infantry never let them take from specialist to corporal only go from speclist to sergeant
I served 4yr enlisted 1990s. I'd say any E-4, Spc with no problems or personnel actions should get Cpl after 24mo, 2yr. Spec get all kinds of jobs, roles. The "test" or excuses bit gets stale after 12mo-16mo. NCO ranks, promotions 1990s was a 💩 show.
@ Dave when I was in I knew only 2 corporals both were given the rank as a test to become e-5 all the other guys that I saw get promoted when strate from e-4 to e 5 I made e-4 in 16 months
I think the Army has been experimenting with using CPL as a milestone rank for people who complete training, but haven't been selected yet...something like that.
he, all ready, got selected and just waiting to be promoted: the 1st Day of being in that (Billet) Office IS promotion Day; Congratulations see you at the O-Clue drinks are on you;
I like that 😎 When's the drinks?
@@the_bureaucratcontact the new LTC he is buying
Its a ridiculous and stupid tradition.
I'd agree that when it is improperly used it doesn't make sense.
Hey, frock you guy
I saw that coming. 🥷
I mean sounds like thuis is just US milltray having a slow period what one might call peace time... But as we know tythe US has no such concectp of war time and peace time being deffert at all... So in the US milltray is just a slow period... Like I mean in the heat of the US shooting war in WW2 clling the US at home in wartime is an insult to the US and being extemly genur to every one in the shooter war part of WW2... So yeah 100% up bage that man so he has correct Insiglia and not a walking war cerome disgused him self as a lower rank! Which yes not having correct insiga is one of the worse real warcrimes... as anyone who understand why fighting insane terrorist is so hard... Also like I mean isf frocking was a thing then what about all those war tim premostions ij WW2? Like is Mccather a truie 5 star like gorege wasitoin is? He one can argue was frocked to all his roles because the man is the reason wny war time premosion is a thing and peacetime for the US millytray is best left fatasy that it is in reality...
The difference with a war time promotion or a "brevet" promotion is that the person is officially the rank they wear. When they "frock", they wear a rank that they haven't gotten orders for yet.
Hey first and I agree don’t accept or ask for a frock. The only caveat is if you’re in a green tab position where the authority out weighs the rank. Also, once the MAJ (P) is promoted then that person changes from rising star to the junior LTC waiting for the command board to transfer from staff to line.
Spot on.