the duality between quaternions and vectors

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  • Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 42

  • @keipfar
    @keipfar 21 день тому +28

    The way my math teacher talked about quaternions is as followed : a quaternion a + b.i + c.j + d.k has two parts : the scalar part a (same role as the real part for complex number) and a vector part b.i + c.j + d.k (same role as the imaginary part for complex number). If you consider two pure vectors (a = 0), their product gives a quaternion whose scalar part corresponds to the scalar product and the vector part to the cross product ("vectorial" product in french).

    • @bjornfeuerbacher5514
      @bjornfeuerbacher5514 21 день тому +6

      That's exactly how quaternions have been used in physics in the 19th century, e. g. for formulating Maxwell's equations.

    • @dang-x3n0t1ct
      @dang-x3n0t1ct 21 день тому +1

      "Clifford algebra is a right there man"

    • @MichaelPohoreski
      @MichaelPohoreski 21 день тому +1

      Another way to understand (unit) quaternions is that they use a 720° degree system. They are _literally equivalent_ to axis-half angle notation. Notice how the 720° maps to 360°. :-)

    • @MichaelPohoreski
      @MichaelPohoreski 21 день тому +1

      It may also help that the imaginary unit _i_ represents a +90° rotation around the Z axis. That makes it easier to understand that the imaginary components _i, j, k_ represents the axis of rotation for the (unit) quaternion.

    • @MichaelPohoreski
      @MichaelPohoreski 21 день тому +1

      @@dang-x3n0t1ct Bivectors say hello. :-)
      Someday GA (Geometric Algebra) / CA (Clifford Algebra) will be taught in high school.

  • @user-lz1yb6qk3f
    @user-lz1yb6qk3f 21 день тому +11

    Everyone who knows geometric algebra expected something like that. But you don't need nether quaternions nor cross product. Multivectors completely cover all the use cases.

  • @Calcprof
    @Calcprof 21 день тому +7

    This was the translation between Hamiltonian (and Tate) physics by quaternions, and Heaviside and Maxwell (and others) physics by vectors.

    • @ruby_linaris
      @ruby_linaris 21 день тому

      Максвелл первоначально использовал кватернионы, и Хевисайд использовал обозначения кватернионов...

    • @Calcprof
      @Calcprof 21 день тому

      ⁠@@ruby_linarisI treatise on electricity and magnetism (maxwell) and Heaviside, for instance Electromagnetic Theory, vectors are used. In fact Heaviside has a whole section on why vectors (notation used is modern boldface) are superior to quaterianans.

    • @ruby_linaris
      @ruby_linaris 21 день тому

      @@Calcprof no, first version Maxwell wrote on Quaternions, vectors crate later... second edition wrote on vectors. yes, Heaviside start vector-war, so His was noname into phisics.

  • @umbraemilitos
    @umbraemilitos 21 день тому +8

    Geometric Algebra demystified quaternions for me, as well as complex numbers and other interesting systems.

    • @michaelaristidou2605
      @michaelaristidou2605 21 день тому

      Geometric Algebra is nonsense

    • @umbraemilitos
      @umbraemilitos 21 день тому

      @@michaelaristidou2605 It isn't, though. It's highly effective, and it originated from the same time period as the foundations of vector analysis.Even this channel has videos on Clifford Algebras. Much of particle physics uses these methods for spinors analysis.

    • @spaghetti1383
      @spaghetti1383 21 день тому +2

      ​@@michaelaristidou2605 Is calculus nonsense? The world revolves around calculus despite it being an informal use of analysis. Meanwhile, geometric algebra is useful for unifying most algebraic objects in mathematical physics despite it being an informal use of Clifford algebra. A century from now, people will likely use geometric algebra the same way as calculus.

    • @michaelaristidou2605
      @michaelaristidou2605 20 днів тому

      @@mrervinnemeth "As a result GA’s relationship to mainstream mathematics is tenuous. It is considered a kooky, crackpotty sideshow. Even worse, as a result of being dubious and un-self-aware, the movement ends up losing everyone except for a particular type of… zealous person… who write about it with a sort of pseudooreligious zeal, as if the only reason GA is not mainstream is that they are being oppressed by close-minded traditionalism. When in fact it is just not very compelling at the moment."

    • @michaelaristidou2605
      @michaelaristidou2605 20 днів тому

      @@spaghetti1383 "As a result GA’s relationship to mainstream mathematics is tenuous. It is considered a kooky, crackpotty sideshow. Even worse, as a result of being dubious and un-self-aware, the movement ends up losing everyone except for a particular type of… zealous person… who write about it with a sort of pseudooreligious zeal, as if the only reason GA is not mainstream is that they are being oppressed by close-minded traditionalism. When in fact it is just not very compelling at the moment."

  • @diavolokelevra4795
    @diavolokelevra4795 21 день тому +12

    Reminds me a lot like Clifford Algebra

    • @dang-x3n0t1ct
      @dang-x3n0t1ct 21 день тому +2

      it's is the same thing but more generalized

    • @magma90
      @magma90 21 день тому

      Quaternions are exactly isomorphic to G_{0,2}(R), which is the 2d geometric algebra with basis vectors with magnitude squared equaling -1

    • @magma90
      @magma90 21 день тому

      @@mrervinnemeth G(0,2) has 1 scalar (1), 2 vectors (i,j) and 1 bivector (ij), and if we associate ij to k, we get ij=-ji=k, ik=iij=-j=jii=-iji=-ki, and jk=jij=-ijj=i=-kj, which is the multiplicative structure of the quaternions, and the additive structure is also the same as the quaternions, where any element can be represented as a+bi+cj+dk.

    • @magma90
      @magma90 20 днів тому

      @@mrervinnemethI am aware of the even subalgebra of G(3) being isomorphic to the quaternions, however the algebra G(0,2) is also isomorphic to the quaternions. In G(0,2) we have to use the entire algebra for the isomorphism, as in G(0,2) we have 3 non-scalar components, which become i,j,k (you can select any order for them as it works either way). The isomorphism is G(0,2)H: ii, jj, ịjk, 11.

    • @magma90
      @magma90 20 днів тому

      @@mrervinnemeth the even subalgebra of G(2) is indeed the complex numbers, however G(0,1) is also the complex numbers, where the full algebra is the complex numbers. By G(n,m) I am meaning having n basis vectors squaring to 1, and m basis vectors squaring to -1.

  • @stephenhamer8192
    @stephenhamer8192 21 день тому +1

    I like this turn towards more geometric topics in Penn's recent videos
    The associativity of the Quaternions is one of the miracles of Maths
    Quaternions might be treated as elements of R x V^3, where V^3 is a 3-D real vector space. They then multiply, thusly:
    q.r = ( α, *a* ) x ( β, *b* ) = ( αβ - (*a*.*b*), α*b* + β*a* - *a*x*b* )
    Then, reversing Penn's procedure, we use the vector identity:
    *a* x (*b* x *c*) - (*a* x *b*) x *c* = (*b*.*c*).*a* - (*a*.*b*).*c*
    To prove associativity; i.e. that q.(r.s) - (q.r).s = 0
    which is fun to do (if you like symbol-bashing)

  • @skilz8098
    @skilz8098 21 день тому +4

    Could do a follow up video of this now that you demonstrated how quaternions and vector operations are related through the properties of the dot and cross products. With that we could now transition from this to show how quaternions are also related to the cosine through the dot product as well as the formula cos(t) + i*sin(t). From there we can even go one step further and couple this with the Fourier Series and transforms, especially the fast Fourier transform and its inverse. As an added bonus we could even throw in a few RK methods to solve for a few basic ODEs. RK = Runge Kuta and ODE being simply an Ordinary Differential Equation solver.
    I am intrigued with things related to Fourier Analysis. However, before we dive in, it should be established why Quaternions are a preferred method of performing rotations in 3D compared to using conventional Euler Angles along with the caveats to Euler Angles while using the commonly known rotation matrices.
    All of these techniques are very useful in 3D Graphics Rendering, Physics Simulations, Animations, and Audio Processing applications as well as many other fields. Try creating a model of a weather pattern related to hurricanes or tornadoes. Try decoding a foreign complex wave like signal such as an unknown source of sound, light, radiation, or anything else that has a frequency. Try determining the amount of energy released during an explosion in a complex dynamic system. These are just a few uses of them.
    These are some of my favorite fields within mathematics and to bring them together into a single functional physics problem, it doesn't get much better than that. Now that's a true form of integration! What else can we derive from them?

  • @goodplacetostop2973
    @goodplacetostop2973 21 день тому +7

    16:09

  • @VideoFusco
    @VideoFusco 18 днів тому

    In the set of quaternions there are infinitely many square roots of -1 (as, indeed, of any negative real number): any linear combination ai+bj+ck with a^2+b^2+c^2=1 is a root of -1.

  • @paulkohl9267
    @paulkohl9267 18 днів тому

    Octonians obey alternative property: (x x) y = x ( x y ), ( y x ) x = y ( x x ) for all octonians x and y. Makes me wonder if there is an R^7 O duality possible like for associative property of quaternians and R^3 H . Great video! Love the series. Cheers.

  • @6cef
    @6cef 21 день тому +1

    7:01 🤯

  • @sphinxvibes416
    @sphinxvibes416 21 день тому

    It makes me wonder what a non-zero "real" part of the quaternion would correspond to in vector land. I'd love to see a followup if possible.

  • @sergiogiudici6976
    @sergiogiudici6976 21 день тому

    It could be used in Minkovskji space, for instance one can re-frame maxwel'sl equations. The question is : does it worth?

    • @zh84
      @zh84 21 день тому +2

      Maxwell originally wrote his equations in terms of quaternions. The familiar form using vector analysis notation was produced by Oliver Heaviside.

  • @pierreabbat6157
    @pierreabbat6157 17 днів тому

    Does it make any sense to add torque and energy and get a quaternion?

  • @trananhkiet167
    @trananhkiet167 21 день тому

    Ayo , you already did about this topic .... I wish this video were released 1 month ago.

  • @bridgeon7502
    @bridgeon7502 21 день тому

    Hi, can you try the 2024 Benelux Math Olympiad Problem 2? It's quite an interesting problem

  • @enpeacemusic192
    @enpeacemusic192 21 день тому

    Yesss I love more abstract math like this!

  • @alexkaralekas4060
    @alexkaralekas4060 21 день тому

    Does someone know any advanced graphing calculator that can take complex plain and not only the real one

  • @gp-ht7ug
    @gp-ht7ug 21 день тому

    Would be nice to see an application

  • @TheMemesofDestruction
    @TheMemesofDestruction 21 день тому

    👀

  • @michaelaristidou2605
    @michaelaristidou2605 20 днів тому

    I noticed that a lot of clueless physicists gathered around here, claiming that "yea all that is geometric algebra and blah blah blaaah".
    Ok, sorry to break it to you but the stuff in the video are real math where geometric algebra is pure nonsense.
    "As a result GA’s relationship to mainstream mathematics is tenuous. It is considered a kooky, crackpotty sideshow. Even worse, as a result of being dubious and un-self-aware, the movement ends up losing everyone except for a particular type of… zealous person… who write about it with a sort of pseudooreligious zeal, as if the only reason GA is not mainstream is that they are being oppressed by close-minded traditionalism. When in fact it is just not very compelling at the moment."

  • @Alan-zf2tt
    @Alan-zf2tt 21 день тому

    I wish I could see the heighty algebra in all this but all I see (perceive?) at cross product as shown @ 0:01 is ... :
    hold x values fixed (that is (twisting?) contribution on i components?) and contribution on those points is given by values of y's and z's
    Then similarly for fixed y's (note change in sign. Hmm determinants?) and fixed z's
    Then for nice permutations of i, j, k ij=k jk=i ki=j has symmetry of some sort whereas other orderings (not nice) introduce skew-symmetry e.g. kj=-i and so forth
    I suppose 𝐢𝐢=i(jk)=(ij)k=𝐤𝐤=k(ij)=(ki)j= 𝐣𝐣 so by deduction 𝐢𝐢= 𝐣𝐣=𝐤𝐤 and these equal -1 by given
    That is not to say I understand what is being presented in tangible sense but what I perceive in a behavioral sense.
    And in this case the behavioral sense seems to make physical properties manifest and that is a wonder of its own. It is almost philosophical to ponder why it should be like that?