Why buy replica instead of nihonto?
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- Опубліковано 7 тра 2024
- Taking a moment to address a common question I get. Why don't you buy nihonto? Why not buy the real thing? Why buy Chinese made katan? Why spend so much on these non Japanese Katana?
Hopefully this helps clarify..
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Another reason to not buy an antique nihonto - not everybody wants to have the responsibility of taking care of a piece of history. Or maybe they think nihonto should stay in Japan.
I'd hesitate to get an antique... I'd rather antiques be in a museum, or owned by people who can really maintain them with the care they deserve.
@@Swordshapedbox As both an Anthropology major and a beginner backyard cutter I feel a replica is the appropriate choice for me. Even for cultures where I have a deep connection, I love buying from living creators and getting useful objects. If I were gifted an important historical weapon I would immediately begin searching for a person and/or organization that could care for it properly.
I think historic nihonto should stay in Japan. I'm actually pretty surprised that of all people, the Japanese allow their history to be exported to gaikoku.
There's a huge amount of nihonto of medium quality that doesn't constitute valuable pieces in archeological or historical terms. Not even for the Japanese. In my experience, japanese museums and collectors don't tend to pay attention or concern when the sword is average, selling them without much panoply. Other thing is if the piece is considered a masterwork, national treasure or a good exemplar according with the NBTHK. Anyways, you can pay a higher amount and acquire a brand new forged Japanese nihonto, if you feel bad having an antiquity.
@@caracoldelechethats true i myself own an antique nihonto I got for around 3000€ probably because it’s shortened and has some light battle damage which for me makes it very cool tho and I know other people that have nihonto you can get pretty decent swords for 3000 upwards
I think you hit the nail on the head. For me a nihonto is so expensive or culturally significant that I don't know if could bring myself to swing it at anything. Either it costs as much as a used car or is of historic value, and either way it feels destructive and even disrespectful to the sword. Having a reproduction sword that's less expensive than a true or modern nihonto let's me feel more at ease with the idea that it may break or get dinged up. If I had millions of dollars at my disposal then yes, I would by all the modern nihonto and be less afraid of breaking them.
But I think what the real issue that no one addresses, including the Japanese public who love swords, is the laws that restrict their sword smiths from making as many nihonto as they want. If they could make and sell as many nihonto as they wanted then they wouldn't be forced to sell each piece for $10,000+ just to make a living. That would allow for true nihonto to be accessible to more people and cut down on the years you have to wait to get one. So these people who are gatekeeping katanas with nihonto superiority, should probably ask why Japan doesn't relax their laws around their sword smiths.
As I understand it, they're not allowed to craft swords *unless* they're crafted as an art piece using authentic traditional methods. Meaning they can't even use modern steels, they have to gather the iron sand, make the tamahagane in a traditional forge, beat it into a usable form, fold it, and by the time they've spent a month on a single piece it kinda makes sense why they cost your first born child to acquire. It really does make me wish the government would at least allow them to use more modern steels so smiths that were interested in doing so could hammer out blades a little faster and cheaper.
@@cavalieroutdoors6036 You’re right on all points except that Japanese swordsmiths aren’t required to smelt their own tamahagane. There are definitely some who do, but it’s not required.
I think an interesting facet of the two sword per month rule is it more or less guarantees the smiths make the best work they can. If your income for the month is based on how much you can sell two swords for, you’re going to do everything in your power to make them the best swords you possibly can.
Orrrrrr… the smith will find some other way of making money. 😅
WAIT, so you’re tellin me that someone may want to spend 1/10th the price to get a sword that works better as a sword? Aint no way
crazy
I love the swords that I’ve purchased. I think the most I’ve paid for one is $800.00USD. The reason why I have bought what I have so far is because of my ability to purchase within my own financial limits and still not have to eat only ramen for 10 months etc. I only buy swords that are as functional as they are beautiful and you made a great point about learning through the years I’ve been collecting swords and knives that the more I get into my hobby the more likely I’m willing to spend on quality of materials
@@carlpowers7291 i think 400ish is the most ive paid for one so far. Id really like to get a cloudhammer s5 sword at some point, but arms and armor is a side thing for me. Most of my free funding goes to firearms. I do have a few of the ‘honshu’ line of swords that ive reworked the handles on and they are pretty decent. Their ‘single handed sword’ (really it aint lol) is a awesome smaller bastard sword since ive redone the handle and stuff.
Filthy poors
Very well said Matt! It is easy for anyone to see a pricey purchase (and hopefully not get too jealous) and project onto the other person as to what we might buy if we had that same budget available.
I collect antique swords, but I also have tons of sharp replicas because my personal interest is in using the sword as a way to learn about how they operated in history. An original antique can teach you a tremendous amount about how a sword was used in it's original historical context, but actually getting out there and doing cutting at some point is required to fully understand the capabilities of a given design. You gave great voice to why many people would be reticent to cut with antique nihonto, and while I have learned plenty from japanese antiques, that will not stop me from buying modern made katana to be able to chop stuff in the back yard and see how these would have behaved back when you could buy them in town, and have a saya maker replace your scabbard when you accidentally sat on it, or banged it against a bridge while making space for a cart etc.
Glad you liked the video. Its funny that the same argument does not happen with other kinds of swords.. Maybe military sabers but that might be due to the lack of decent replica out there vs the cost and accessibility of an original. The same argument does not come up with longswords, kampilan, Chinese blades.. ect.
@@Matthew_Jensen I think maybe I've seen some of that same noise/pushback occur from folks that like khukuri. And I think your point about military sabre helps explain, its the combination between popularity-availability of antiques. Longsword is super popular but inaccessible. African swords are very inexpensive but not very mainstream.
When you hit both, you will have fandoms developing weird ideas about how you should collect...
@@Matthew_JensenIf I were to inherit my father’s military saber I think I would treat it the same as I would a Nihonto because of the amount of reverence it demands as a piece of history.
I am the guardian of a signed muromachi tanto. I also have some other antiques like tsuba and menuki (I sold all my fuchi kashira sets). I LOVE the history but I also like using swords, so a tanto is a great option for me. I will never use it or even mount it, but I enjoy having a real piece of history. Then I'm free to go wild with everything else. In my mind this is the best of both worlds! Nihonto wakizashi can be found VERY cheap, so that is a good option for people wondering -- you can pick up an OK one for $1000.
I have had nihonto , Replicas and now forge my own. A couple of things to add. If you use a nihonto for tamashigiri you can’t just polish it up with some compound (or what ever your DIY polishing hack is) .
The more experienced one gets , you start to want specific profile, length, weight, kissaki, sori ect…. With a reproduction, pick a site and find your candy. Good luck finding a 300 year old blade with your specifications. Sure you can get a new shinshinto custom to your preference but you can forget about that ten grand mark that Matthew was talking about.
I have a Nihonto (pretty sure Meiji era or Kanto), it came into my possession almost accidentally. I thought it was a well made replica. I even gave it away once, but it was eventually given back. It turned out to be a real one, and I was quite surprised tbh. It was used to cut a few things here and there, I even managed to cut a bottle of water once and was quite stunned at how neatly it cut.
Problem is, it's a historical artifact. It is in sore need or restoring. So it isn't going to be doing any cutting any time soon, even if I get it restored.
If I really wanted a blade to practice with I'd get a replica, and at a decent quality/price point. I could run around the back yard doing stupid things with it and have no worries about its future worth, or having to respect a piece of history.
I teach iaido and all my students use modern production katana made outside of Japan. Does this mean we don't appreciate the nihonto? Of course not. It means that we cannot afford to spend thousands of dollars on a Japanese made blade. It also means we honor the cultural and historical significance of these blades and realize that ownership of such a blade comes with a responsibility. I own several modern katana from a variety of forges but do not own a nihonto. The swords I own fulfill all the requirements I need for kata and cutting.
You make a great point about accessibility and making it easier to get into the arts/hobby. My first katana was a $300 Swords of Northshire special. It was pretty terrible, but it got me into iado which then led me to a more expensive (but still not Japanese) cutting sword…and I’m still into it now 10 years later, and always thinking about how to convince the wife that a $3000 sword is totally a bargain 😅
I have a Citadel Bamboo, #64. I'm very happy with its fit, finish and overall appearance. I can also be very assured of its durability and practicality.
Moral of story... ask others questions the same way you'd want to be asked. Huge Thanks Matt, you're honesty, humor and attention to all aspects of this hobby has helped me get the most joy out of every sword buck I spend. And for the love of god please bring back the drunken reviews.
I understand exactly. My most expensive sword is a $200 wakizashi. Most of my swords average $100, and I have a about 10. But I could barely afford the ones I got. Of course I want a Nihonto. Maybe someday when I win the lottery.
As far as usage, I would not want to be cutting with a true nihonto, and I would only be able to hold out so long before I crack. Lol. So until i have the the cash to be collecting, production and non Japanese made customs.
Yes! Love the intro talking about HOW the question is asked. Can't wait for the video to go public so I can share it.
I have 15 HBF swords with #16 just ordered. I didn't plan it that way but it's like once you first take your first hit of heroin you want another and another ( I'm speculating as I actually do not now nor have I ever done heroin 😄)
But in the past I've gotten that question a lot, though in my current katana forum I think most people there have heard the answer so I don't get it as much anymore. I couldn't always tell from their writing which way they were asking it so I would give people the benefit of the doubt that they were asking out of polite curiosity, but there were definitely some asking because they are condescending sword snobs.
Now of course even though I've gotten more serious in my asks from HBF, they still don't crack $1,000 mark, but I find enjoyment in having a functional art piece that I have designed, though obviously within the parameters of their offerings and forging ability. Or maybe metalworking ability might be a better way to put it.
But nowadays, with everything ordered the way I order it, my swords from them are still in the retail range of 4-500 dollars.
I started in March of 2021 and by now I'm sure I've spent $5,000. I haven't kept that close of track. The initial designs were less expensive sticking with alloy and synthetic fittings and 1060 or 290 steels, but my thing during for the first 7 Swords was coming up with a theme and then naming the sword and putting that name on the blade with the relevant logo. For example my first sword was Dragon's Claw and laser etched on the blade next to that was a dragon's claw. But after a while the novelty of that wore off and I just started getting more serious with the design requesting iron or brass fittings, real silk, full same' wrap and so forth.
What are the things I like to do is tweak the BoHi's a bit. My "signature look" is to have the Hi start some cm outside the habaki. On one I had a double BoHi with the bottom one starting 5 cm and the one on top starting 20 cm down the blade. There is one that is unique but it's kind of hard to explain in any short words and this is already turning into a novel.
And the other thing is, I found somebody in Yao, (for those that don't know that's who runs HanBon Forge) who was willing to work with me from the very beginning explain what they can do and not do and how they can meet my needs. He also told me that he gets alot of emails from people that are not serious buyers, even at some sub $200 price point, that ask a lot of questions, take up a lot of time and then disappear.
Anyway I get my functional art piece and that makes me happy enough. Would I take all of my HBF swords unquestioningly into battle? Probably not. Probably just 25% of them. But that's the kind of thing some people look for in THEIR aspect of the hobby and they looked down on those that find enjoyment in other aspects. Like anime is not my bag, but if somebody comes on the Forum saying they got this, that or the other anime replica and they're thrilled with it, I'm happy for them.
Anyway thanks agsin for bringing up the subject. Cheers
I agree. I train 2 koryu systems and while only one uses steel swords, the rationale holds. I have a zsey folded steel blade mounted by motohara. I immediately got scoffs on why i would spend that much to mount a chinese made blade and the answer is several reasons. 1. Ultimately it was cheaper and allowed me more options than an off the shelf motohara, 2. It allowed me to build and customize something that i aesthetically enjoy and feels good which makes 4 hour classes much more enjoyable. 3. Its not a nihonto! I would love a nihonto and could afford one but the koshirae more than likely wouldn't hold up to regular training and i would feel terrible using a nihonto in the way i do a production sword. They take a beating, and they get chips and dings and scratches. The techniques are more important and if the sword gets damaged in the pursuit of that then oh well a noble sacrifice. My instructor trained with a koto and it took a beating and i remember wincing every time it would get clashed, i'd rather pay more for an "inauthentic" sword to serve as a stand in for that level of abuse.
Great point about the accessibility of the lower cost katana. The $50 Musashi was what started me on what has become a collection that covers an entire wall in my office. I still tend to cut with some of my lower cost pieces but do use them all.
Thanks for your video, Matt. I often wondered the same thing, often for myself and in regards to your collection. As a practitioner, I feel the urge to obtain/use a nihonto but realistically a replica would be a better choice. For the Toho school of iaido I practice, and for All Japan Kendo Federation iaido, a good quality iaito is what you would be using in Japan and the US. There may be some pressure down the road to use a shinken in the higher dan ranks, but not at shodan/nidan level. Cost is the biggest barrier for me.
As others have commented, I would be worried about doing damage to even a modestly priced antique nihonto when performing any kind of cutting. Glad to see you showing Tozando's site. Nosyudo is another dealer. Since neither my iaido school nor the kendo dojo where I practice even teaches tameshigiri, everything I do could be considered backyard cutting. If I lived in Japan then I suppose a nihonto would be the only option, but even then the majority I saw while I was in Japan are using an iaito for forms.
Cutting there would be a different story.
I've seen videos of cutting contests and Tai Kai's in Japan where the competitors are using swords that seem to be non-nihonto or even foreign made replicas. I'm not sure what's going on in those given the nature of Japan's sword and firearms act.
Excellent video Matt. I wouldn't ask like an ahole but I am guilty of wondering why people wouldn't just save up all the money they'd spend on Chinese stuff and buy a Nihonto. Watching this vid made me realise nobody would want to risk damaging an expensive sword swinging it around in the garden. Personally I'm saving for a nice Katana that is more 'pretty and nice blade' than a backyard cutter.
I think you put it very eloquently!!! Hey Matt! been busy, but I've been keeping up. As a boy I started with "mall swords" and I got lucky at the age of 10-12 ish I got a bushido samurai sword, it wasn't the best "real" sword but it taught me a lot while I was in Tang Soo Do. It wasn't till years later, and grinding with my music career, and thanks to you bro, where I got a blunt trainer and a Niku-edged sharp from Swords of Northshire. That helped so much in going back to a hobby of mine I fondly enjoyed. And for that I got to thank you man. With all the brands out there that aren't nihonto, at all the different prices, it made it easy to see what forges are worth it for those who don't have 3-10K. Have a great day Matt! Much love from the Detroit area and keep rocking!
I'm East Asian. When I completed my sword training, and started looking for a sword, I wanted a katana that was made of "space-age steel". After almost a decade, I can safely say that, well forged T10 and spring steel katanas are my faves. Good Damascus steel blades are also decent. A katana should not be a piece of art. It should be a friend.
Love your answer, like a young adult who rents their 1st apartment or home although they might love to live in the best part of town they have to be realistic with their money. The choice to purchase a sword within your budget is commendable the fact the you also pay tuition at a dojo to learn traditional arts to respectfully pay homeage to the samurai who wielded these weapons in war shows your sincerity I commend you! It is worthy to note that many samurai did not carry the "perfect" sword or wear the perfect set of armor they wore what was affordable the sword does not make the man the skill of countless hours does remind the people that the famous samurai Musashi beat the best Samurai of a Ryu with a wooden ore he widdled on the way to a duel!
I appreciate your take sir. Personally I think people need to understand what's the differences first. A lot of times people say buy "authentic" just to say it without knowing the differences
I bought a scratch and dent katana and wakizashi pair from Ronin Katana and when my brother took a huge divot out of the cutting stand and nicked the blade I laughed, because we are beginners and I bought the swords to learn. Even if there were cheap originals, I wouldn't use them for cutting because historical artifacts should be preserved and replicas work just fine! Also, I love when you commission artists to complete your blades. It keeps the art alive. Even if I won the lottery, I'd buy tons of modern reproductions and leave the originals to other people.
Thank you buddy.
Your instruction is wonderful data to a newbie such as moi.
Hi mate,
thanks for picking up on the discussion that we had recently in the comments section :)
Kind regards from Germany
I think you asked it nicely.
@@Matthew_Jensen 😄
Agreed on all points, and have gotten these comments myself, with that implied tone that anything that isn't a traditional Nihonto is some kind of unforgivable offense. My original Gunto aren't "traditional" but are antiques, and I started buying repros as users because I do beat up my blades and fixtures a bit in practice. I'd be beyond uncomfortable even gently using an antique Nihonto or a high-end modern one (assuming I ever had that kind of disposable income for something that didn't have four wheels, comfy seats and a nice stereo). The other judgemental comment type I get is "How dare you breathe on the blade!" or some such, usually because they've heard looking at it wrong will instantly rust it and in my blasphemous negligence I've somehow managed to not learn how to keep all my swords corrosion free since 1980. I feel your frustration.
Hi Matthew, I enjoy both replica and true authentic Japanese swords. I would never use an antique to train with but it is a piece of history. A shinsakuto would be nice but I don't have the budget. I know Shogo puts the safety factor into it but I feel all the major brands and forges take it into consideration and there shouldn't be an excuse for potential owners not to do their homework and research the subject and sword they plan on buying. Especially in this day and age. For regular usage quality replicas are suitable for training without feeling guilty of bending or breaking a 10 000 USD blade. Also those who are new to the endeavour may not also be able to have access to a shinsakuto and if they are new to training, a 10 000 blade would not be ideal. My first sword was a 150 AUD carbon steel sword which I still have and use from time to time and maybe selling it to a work colleague at some stage. I also own nihonto as well.
Hulk. Cool topic/vid. Would like to see recommended list for beginners intermediate and advanced collectors.
He has a few videos like that on his channel that might interest you:
'Ramble Time: Top 3 katana for backyard fun, learning tameshigiri, light cutting, and prettiness..'
'$60-$500 Katana Buying Ramble and Suggestions'
^Look up these titles on his channel and see if those are the kind of videos you're looking for.
i have gotten swords even at the $200 range that i have deemed display pieces because they just look beautiful and i dont want to damage them and i have gotten others that just feel great being used. so for me a antique nihonto is something im trying to eventually get.
as a kid good usable swords weren’t available at all and now they are so im very excited and there’s a ton of good stuff out there from the chinese smiths.
This is most likely entirely irrelevant, but I've largely been on the fence about spending more than I need to on a sword, but the Howard Clark blades I've seen on your channel have sold me on saving up for one. Can't think of anything better, and I probably wouldn't have been able to make that decision without the videos on this channel. Appreciate it. Although, I have been wondering, once I do end up surviving the wait after buying it, would you know anywhere I could get the blade mounted, or a saya? Hope I'm not being a nag, and again, I appreciate the reviews and the content on the channel. Keep doing what you do best. 👍
Well stated Matt !
I have not bought a Katana yet but I think it’s important to know that some cheap replicas may not have a lot of customization options so it may be too small if someone is extra tall. Or practices a style that uses bigger swords. As for a reason to buy Newly Made Japanese Swords there is a reason to be made to simply just support the smiths as they are having a problem with lack of customers. I hope I did not do any disruption, just wanted to mention some points
Just for fun I'll come at this from more of a martial opinion. I was raised from a fairly aggressive and down to earth line of martial artist. And frankly as much as i do see the debate not to hurt history. I dont think seeing those swords sit there wasting away or being pampered like a princess was the hope of any great warrior. it is a blade meant for cutting. If it damages find a great sharpener to bring it to a usable position again. I know many friends from when i was younger who had family swords they would cut with.
The only stopping point for me is truly the price. I also see it redicolous for any martial artist to pay outrageous cost for what can be afforded at so much cheaper. If push came to shove i believe there are manh samurai who wouldve bought there blades at a 100 dollar equivalent if they worked as well as ours do now lol.
Rolexes, Art, Swords, Antiques, Wine, Giant RV, Classic Cars, Luxury Boats..., My son calls these the "Boomer Money Fight"
@1:05 yep.
I think the point about the accessibility of cheap swords really should get more recognition. I buy $1000-2000 swords now but ten years ago I was hesitant to even buy a $200 Hanwei. I never would have gotten into serious collect without building up to it mentally and financially. I think some of the sword communities are too quick to turn their noses up at the cheaper stuff, that maybe they have moved past but others can still get a lot of value out of.
A great subject I have often asked myself that very question.
I have had a few Nihonto and Lots of Hanwei and dragon king.
For me the main reason is say you spend 10k on a Nihonto the people whom are confirming the authenticity is just down to there thoughts and what they say.
Also I like the themes on modern swords take the dragon king pine crane for instance.
Many old swords have flaws like openings and some massively over polished.
Some want a sword as a decorative item.
I like like swords for what they are and how they look rather than being hundreds of years old and telling people oh yes that’s a 30k sword , too many swords snobs in the community to be fair.
I know you've been a long time proponent of letting people like what they like, but I'm always happy to hear/see the sentiment expressed again. As long as no harm is being done (especially to others), people shouldn't be made to feel bad about enjoying different aspects of something than you do. Diversity makes us better, and opens doors to our hobby instead of slamming them in the face of folks who might one day come around to one's personal point of view.
I think it comes down to usable blades vs something you purchase to show. I doubt many people would try to cut things with an antique Nihonto (or I hope not) I think the best way to ask would be something like if you spend $6-$10K on an art piece would you spend it on a modern katana made outside of Japan or an antique Nihonto?
My brother actually has an antique ancestral blade that had been remounted as a gunto. The guy he got it from had no idea what he was really giving away. As for me, there are plenty replicas that are reasonably well built, look good, do what I want to do with them, and cost 1/20 the amount of an authentic shinken.
It's basically the same for collecting anything in general; you make a few purchases that in hind sight are questionable and then over time you educate yourself and refine your taste relative to the higher , more discriminating collective.
With my luck I would commission a nihonto for $10k and the world would end before I ever get delivery.
From the USA and have lived in Japan for 11 years. I had great swords from China in the USA and own Nihonto in Japan. My thought is that I would rather use a replica for cutting than a Nihonto. But I live in Japan and feel that outside Japan the swords are held with more reverence. There is definitely an awareness that some swords are dojo cutters and some swords you'd never want to cut with because they're too pretty. I've also exported swords from Japan and that's an epic pain. But a Japanese sword of about 70cm blade length in dojo ready koshirae can be had pretty cheap right now because the yen is so weak to the dollar. You can probably get one from Yahoo Auctions for $1300 right now, before export.
Even as a general sword enthusiast, I have found that the culture and traditions surrounding the historical katana to be voluminous and difficult to approach, requiring a lot of study to even get started. The language barrier just adds to the inaccessibility.
From what I can gather, a JSA practitioner will give a great deal of consideration to every detail of their sword. Since I’m not a practitioner, I wouldn’t know what to look for. Many of these details, though transparent to me, are what make a nihonto so valuable to practitioners and serious collectors.
The thought of basically being an online tourist spending thousands of dollars on an art item seen only in photos from a seller across the world just seems kinda irresponsible if not outright reckless.
Buying a nice non-nihonto from a well known company making well regarded katana simply makes way more sense to outsiders like me.
It depends what you want to to do with it and why you buy it. For training forms, a quality Iaito with top notch finish is a no brainer for me. For practical use, if I want to cut stuffs in the backyard, I would never use and damage an expensive Shinsakuto made by a Japanese blacksmith ( a waste IMO) , or God forbid an antique Nihonto ( that would be blasphemy, damaging a historical heritage masterpiece for that, I find it silly and a lack of respect to the original owner for who this tachi/katana was sacred).
The way I see it, antique Nihonto are collectible art objects. You get one mostly because your ego wants to possess it. It is like buying an expensive painting, you just hang it on the wall and never touch it again ( except for maintenance ofc ), it is just there to be admired or to boast that you own one.
If I want to test and risk damaging a functional blade for the fun in my garden, I would definitely go for an inexpensive replica that is of a good quality ( safe) and looks the part ( for my own enjoyment, something that resembles the most the real thing).
If it was possible financially to purchase a real Japanese licensed katana that was made with the reverence for the creation...it would forever be appreciated and treated with the respect it deserves.
It would never be used for its original purpose....
However if for any reason it was, it would be the first and last time.
For cutting mats and such, a great blade is available at many varied prices.
A perfect blade, created to take a perfectly created lifeforce, MUST be made with the reverence a perfect creation deserves.
In other words...
A serious blade made for a serious act, deserves serious respect in its creation.
Just my opinion😉👍👍
Matthew, what’s your overall opinion on Hanwei katana’s. I know that’s a broad question.
I have a number of reviews on them. They set the standard for replica swords either by doing it first or by being the most prolific and well known. I think they can be very good swords.
@@Matthew_Jensen
Thank you.
I own a Hanwei replica Katana (great wave) and also a pre 1500 (possibly even pre 1400] blade sunnobi Tanto. I will eventually own an antique katana. Would I dream of using them the same way, never! As I see it, we are custodians of antique Japanese blades.
Modern nihonto katana are so expensive, I would not want to use a £6-10k sword the same way I would a £500 replica one. I believe there are rules on their makers which prevent larger scale production but also make sword-smithing a difficult choice of career in Japan.
I'm not entirely against collecting nihonto but being a JDM car guy I've seen what has happened to Japanese car culture since they started mass exporting them. Cars that were once plentiful and common to see have become extremely rare to find. I know ww2 meant a huge loss of swords for them and I don't want to perpetuate a loss of culture.
Susah bwk benda betul ni.. melenggang lagi senang.. masa ada soalan pistol lawan pisau.. ramai yg tdk akan lupa.. 😂😂😂😂
Great approach to the question. It _should_ be asked politely because it's not their money to make decisions with.
For me, I tend to treat swords like well-loved golf clubs. You can have a great day swinging them in the sunshine, and learn a lot about improving technique etc.
Why don't I buy expensive vintage clubs? I'm not sure what extra value would they bring if they were too old or too pretty to swing.
Plus, when you have modern steels and forges who can temper them well, I'd rather in practice go for something that is metallurgically superior to tamahagane.
If money were not a problem and you could, would using a nihonto make the experience any more fun? If so how?
@@Matthew_JensenFor me it's hard to imagine a use case. Maybe for learning togishi arts, which I may not want to commit to, though would be neat . I really enjoy reprofiling, sharpening and polishing. In that sense, and with money no object, I would like fine examples to study for sure. Not sure about cutting with a nihonto, but maybe Iaido would feel more enjoyable with an elegant Edo period art piece.
Btw I can see what you mean that is better to have a good conversation than a drunken review. All these comments show you have high-quality subscribers with lots of knowledge on all sides.
I buy ones that look cool and make me happy.
Funny, I just finished watching Shadiversity test a $3k authentically made (absolutely flawless and beautiful fit and finish) katana, and yup, it ended up bending and failing after 2 moderate swings into wood. It was a laser against tatami mats, though.
I don't imagine a shinasakuto would act much different. The edge might chip instead of roll on PVC, but it would likely bend when hitting a large plank of wood. long differentially hardened blades tend to do that.
@Matthew_Jensen Agreed. And that's why there's Zombie Tools LOL. A beautiful, traditional, hand made sword is still worth having though, if one can afford it.
Id buy like 1700 or 1800 european or american sword. Its antique but not so old that it cant be restored or played with.
Two reasons really, affordability and accessibility. For a few hundred dollars, or a thousand dollars, l can buy a single high quality chopper that looks good and performs fantastic. And for some people, one is enough.
But over time and within the same budget, it is within the realm of possibility to acquire a very interesting variety of sword types, with different mounts and of varying metals, with or without bohi, wakizashi, katana, etc. for the cost of just one or two fully mounted nihonto.
Do the math, and the answer is right in front of you.
Sure, they are made in China. Just like your TV, your phone, your computer, and most of the components of your car, your motorcycle, your house, your eyeglasses, and just about everything else you see, touch or use. Would l prefer nihonto? Of course, who wouldn't? Are they accessible to me at the price and in the variety that l might wish to acquire? Hell no, no way.
So I enjoy a nice collection of very good quality katana replicas, and am quite happy with every one of them.
I believer that any Japanese swords would be made of tamahagane; although that would be the authentic method, it does not mean it would be the best. Japan was poor in iron deposits which was why their smiths had to develop methods to work with poor quality iron sand. My preference would be to have a blade made of modern mono-steel, due to durability and cost.
Well said I always wanted a true Japanese sword but now I think I can live with my Chinese ones. I think I can say that now . And it’s ok .
I'm not swinging around antiques. Or even one that's just old.
Sooooo much i could and want to say, about this topic...so i will only agree that the interest, in historical Nihanto, Japanese history and amazement is in part or more due to Chinese manufacturing of katana for centuries, does not hurt the sales or need for Nihanto, as the upper class disgusting high income individuals will find a way to own the real thing along with a dozen Hanwei...And a very important fact, we as Content creators like you and I have paved the gold road to the interest in the mystical Art of the Sword, so go have a 🍸🍸🍸Matthew and toast to yourself..😅
IMO, owning a nihonto is justified _if_ you really desire to own an authentic piece of Japanese history. I appreciate the history of Japan, but it is somewhat separate from my appreciation of katana, even though I've spent as much on a couple of nice handmade western katana [replica?]. In my youth a half-century ago, I looked at nihonto in museums and very specialized shops and dreamed of owning such a sword...but I would have been just as pleased to own a quality non-Japanese replica. We can all hardly understand our good fortune to have such swords available today.
I collect nihonto, and i also own some non Japanese shinsakuto. I collect nihonto because i love the craft, , art and history. I would recommend Japanese-sword lovers to buy a modern nihonto (shinsakuto) for the purposes of iaido because it keeps the tradition alive and relevant. With only 100ish active smiths in japan, we can definitively say that it is a trade that is dying. I own high end antiques to collect, and never plan on "using" them. I feel us antique collectors have a duty to at least own one modern nihonto (shinsakuto). If a westerner loves these swords, wants to cut bottles or partake in iaido and has around $3000usd - buy the real thing. all modern japanese shinken, or shinsakuto are made to be used, abused - then retired. so i endorse that.
on the topic of using antiques for iaido - i want to stress that i would never recommend using an important antique for cutting, many Japanese iaido practitioners use "tired" antique swords for this. it's your decision - but remember that a sword is made to be used, and not all antique swords are "culturally important" at all. many antiques wouldn't even be considered worthy of preservation in japan.
Where can a usable shinakuto be had for $3k
@@Matthew_Jensen i have replied twice already and my message seems to disappear? can i not post links?
I would think you could. I have not been removing them and I do not see anything in my "held for review" bucket.
Original for exhibition and réplica for practice
I'm a silly, clumsy person. I like to cut with my swords a lot, and often. I try to find a balance between rugged simplicity, decent handling and affordability. I appreciate those beautiful swords, but they're just not for me. At least not right now.
I’m 17 and I’m more interested in the tradition “tamahagane” katana. However, at my age, there is no way I will be able to buy even the nihonto and still be somewhat financially stable. However, the cheaper “tamahagane” replicas like customs from jkoo and such are something I could possibly get. That just my reasoning
You are under 30 want watch my content willingly? WHY?
@@Matthew_Jensen Because I love swords i guess. Its fun to be the friend with the cool stuff, and i love history of all weapons, but swords are my favorite
Great video. My $0.02:
I like collecting swords, but I also like using them. I don't pursue any non-functional pieces, and to me nihonto are non-functional because even if they are actually structurally sound, there's no way I'm going to do anything that'll risk damaging it and its value, so any historical piece (Japanese or from any other culture) would be little more than a shelf queen to me, and I think those belong in museums where the public can all appreciate them instead of my personal collection or backyard.
Then there's also the cost. I saw somebody once being a bit elitist on reddit (shocking, I know) about how they only buy papered nihonto and that they'd pay tens of thousands of dollars for one sword and, I mean that's cool that you have that much disposable income but I've got a mortgage my guy. If I had 20K there's a million things more important that I'd spend it or invest it into before a single sword. Heck, that'd be the same for 5K, or even 1K. It would be financially irresponsible of me to even consider it instead of putting that money towards my family's needs.
Lastly there's just that besides some intangible sense of cultural pride for Japan, which I both respect but also can't really participate in being an American, there's no functional difference to me between a katana made in Japan versus anywhere else. People can say it's not a real katana because it wasn't made with materials from Japan or by a smith born and taught there, but in the end they're the same sword shaped objects that do the same sword things. Its only our perceptions that differentiate them.
So if I can get one for a much lower price that'll still do what I want it to, then...why wouldn't I do that?
I'm completely uninterested in owning historical pieces, I believe those should remain in museums or in private collections in the country of their origin. I'm also entirely unwilling to pay 7-22x the cost to buy a sword made in Japan from inferior steel where the vast majority of the cost is simply because it was made in Japan. I always laugh when people crap on modern steel swords, knowing that essentially every single warrior in history would have absolutely loved to get their hands on a mid-level $300-$600 modern steel sword that was made in China. Its almost never the blade that is the issue with these swords, nearly always its the handles and its not even an issue of quality of materials its usually an issue of the effort put into its assembly, which you can fix yourself easily.
I like replicas because you can find them in different blade steels. I like knowing my blades can bend to a high degree and still be straight.
Plus financially I can have more hanging on my walls and use them without worrying about telling my wife that I just ruined a 10k sword when she asks why I'm crying lol.
No way I would (even if I could) spend that kind of money on a sword.. My sword is a tool that I enjoy smacking into things that I might not even want to touch.. I have enough apprehension with spending HUNDREDS, much less thousands, for a sword.. That's just crazy money..
I wouldn't partake in this hobby at all, if prices were that ridiculous.
Look around for a minute at what else costs that much - that actual amount spent on things people regularly spend that much on..
Even if I was gifted a nihonto, it would never leave the safe, for concern that I would "use" it just enough to reduce its initial value..
Thank God for all of the skilled Chinese swordsmiths that produce these tools and sell them at affordable prices.
I might end up spending thousands, on Chinese katanas, in a lifetime.. But I would bet it will make a pretty little pile when I'm done.. And nearly all of them would go to a new (and appreciative) owner..
it would be more stressful for me to take care of nihonto than reproduction katana,im more comftorble to sharpen reproduction
Hmm, personally, unrelated to your martial arts, katana or a sabre (pick one and do tell why)?
Trick question. A katana is a two handed saber.
@@Matthew_Jensen Didn't cross my mind when I phrased inquiry. Still, if one would squint on bihandling aspect, what sabre would outkatana the friction folded pop sensation, hypothetically, if it eases thy hart?
“Nihonto” are functional pieces of art.
“Reproductions” are just functional swords or what I like to call “beater swords” because you can use abuse and beat them to hell without breaking the bank. I do on the other hand, collect antique armor. because that you can arguably wear without damaging it.
Replicas arent a piece of history and don't come with a mountain of red tape to export from japan
I'd buy a replica so that I can use them instead of just display pieces
This is true but we aren’t allowed to buy replicas in my country. It makes it a lot more expensive. 👍
That is fair. I think the question often asked implies that replica are accessible just not desirable.
Well tamahagane is shit. And I prefer being able to actually use my swords in a fight (without having to worry) where the other person also potentially has a weapon. Nihonto... good if I were strolling down memory lane in my PJ's and an unarmed person comes up and yanks my man-ponytail and I've had to punish him o.o then a nihonto is adequate rly. But if SHTF and I need something reliable... Nihonto stays home and never gets seen again. Nihonto are works of arts.. Not tools.. Not anymore. They are now inferior when we judge them from a tool-perspective. But far superior when we judge em from an art perspective tho.
Ive been saying this for years. And now, funny enough, swords also come with instructions/warning that modern made replicas are "way superior" (their words, not mine) to their authentic/original counterpart. Literally 2 sheets of A4 paper explaining this+some do's and dont's, in my box of my newest sword.
My perspective comes from Iaido/tameshigiri, but also a survivor/prepper, so wanted something that has a better chance of surviving. So started watching destruction tests, and realized how easy (highcarbon and tamahagane) blades break. (Also broke some myself during the times, but always assumed it was bad quality). So ever since then the "authentic japanese blades" totally turned me off... I would like some authentic fittings one day tho. Then add it to supersteel from the west.
I wanted a nihonto. But I also wanted a sword that I could take to war and not worry about failure. So I bought 2 swords. Neither are nihonto lol both of them ended up being cloudhammer swords, a 51crv4 with the bohi so I could learn proper blade alignment, and an s5 for the zombie apocalypse. I wanted a pretty sword, so I have ordered a sks3 cloudhammer that is differentially hardened. Now I’m back to looking at nihonto but my wife is not happy about this new hobby of mine 😂
I've owned both & the fact is i cannot (or rather am afraid to) cut with an actual nihonto. I dont wanna break it or spend the $ to bring it back in polish afterward. A reproduction i can beat around on without all that baggage. Besides a good nihonto will cost well above what a good reproduction will. I know it looks like there are some that are within that range but i promise they are typically not that good.
i like turtles
Personally I like “newer” katana, for many particular reasons, so if I’m going to spend thousands of dollars on a katana, I’d rather buy a Howard Clark L6 or a Walther Sorrels custom blade. I’m not going to B.S and say that I wouldn’t like to buy a 500 yr old nihonto if i stumbled across an amazing deal, because I think the idea of owning something that was made centuries ago, and maybe passed down from generation to generation would be pretty cool. I mean you never know, maybe it belonged to a samurai at one point. So different strokes for different folks I say. To trash someone else’s opinions on swords of any kind, because you can’t get down off your high horse to see why that person feels the way they do about old/new katana, than you’re a douche bag! Plain and simple.
In my opinion nihonto should be behind glass as an piece of art. I would never want it as a tool cause tamahagane is shit steel. Just compared to modern supersteels oke? It was supersteel a thousand years ago, not anymore. So why buy a shitty tool/weapon for 5 times the money? It don't make sense.
I would say if you want a nihanto (an authentic Japanese blade), thats fine. But, I would caution that they are a very expensive investment, they are quite rare, they require careful maintenance, they are a responsibility, and they are difficult to aquire if you live outside of Japan. Now, having said all of that, if you still want one, and you have the money set aside, then I would say go for it. It's your money, your hobby, and if you manage to get one, you would end up with what I would consider to be beautiful piece of art... But, that's all it is - a beautiful piece of art. Something to hang on your wall, and look at. You can cut with it, sure, but if you're not trained, or, if you've never cut with a sword before, there is a good chance that you're going to irreparably damage the blade, and now you're out thousands of dollars, and the sword is worthless. So, really consider why you want one. If you admire the aesthetic, and the beauty of the blade, and you're willing to take on the responsibility of owning a nihanto, then by all means - buy one. But, if you're just going to go out into your backyard with it, and practice cutting water bottles, then I strongly urge you to look for a far less expensive alternative. Sure, the alternative will not be an authentic nihanto, but it also won't cost you thousands of dollars, and if you damage the blade after making a bad cut, then it's not as big of a deal.
Interesting to put "practice" in quotation marks. You don't consider bottles to have instructive value as a target?
I'd invite you to try stacking two bottles, cutting first the bottom one, and see how much fun it is to thrust the falling top bottle before it can bounce away. It's easy with bottles to dial in the level of difficulty appropriate to the student. Those 5 gal blue waterjugs from coolers, for instance, might be an appropriate level for an experienced practitioner to cut without knocking it over.
@@KF1 Actually, I do consider water bottles to be a valid target. But, I don't think it's right for someone who has had no training at all to just have at some water bottles in their backyard with an antique sword. I think it's disrespectful to the blade, especially when you could be cutting water bottles with a sword you bought for a couple hundred dollars instead. Unless you're skilled, if you're going to use a nihanto to cut water bottles, your not practicing - you're "practicing". There's using the right tools to hone your skills, and practice your craft, and then there's just a blatant disregard for craftsmanship, history, and aesthetic, and I think people should to know the difference.
@@shanewright344 oh I wasn't even considering a person would use a nihonto for bottles, so I guess I misread. You make a good point and I agree
@@KF1No worries. I also didn't consider how my original comment would be interpreted by others by putting quotation marks around the word practice. So, I edited it, and removed the quotation marks in order to avoid confusion for others who will read my comment in the future.
@@shanewright344 Cool yeah, fair idea. Was talking with John from RVA about bottles as targets just before this regarding their relative usefulness as targets, so I was skewed to that line of thinking, which caused me to misinterpret. What's your fav sword for cutting bottles? Mine is a tossup between the Huawei 9260 unokubi and the Cloudhammer Sx105v Han Dynasty Jian. I think for reproduction swords, both tick a lot of boxes and offer good examples why modern reproductions can carry value beyond price.
If you plan on using the sword, modern steel on average will cost less and be more durable than a nihonto.
Any use of the sword, whether it's cutting or drawing, will degrade the sword or mounting. I'm not going to spend thousands to destroy an antique when $200 will suffice.
Not disagreeing here but curious about your thoughts on the folks in Japan that use them regularly. Seems like they don't have the option of using something else, so nihonto get used.
@@Matthew_Jensen since they have no other option, they are stuck spending thousands for a nihonto. We (in the US, at least) are not constrained in the same way, so why not pay less for something which will withstand wear and tear better?
Your logic is too strong.
An old nihonto is something you can't use for cutting, traning and abuse. Well you can, but you know. just don't. If I had a nihonto it would be on display. A iaito or practice sword made in japan is expensive. A decent china-to you can cut with or blunt as a iaito. And the weight of the blade is better than the aluminium-zinc alloy.
If I was wealthy enough to buy, and look after, original Japanese swords, I'd STILL buy replicas...
Modern swords are often more robust than centuries old antiques. I'm not a fan of worrying about my things falling apart.
With the technology of today we are able to build a blade that is more capable. What you’re paying for with a genuine Katana is heritage.
Can you explain more?
Simple answer, you can get more for your money.
Japanese made swords are highly regulated and that type of control comes with artificial high prices. The Chinese are more than capable of producing kitanas that match or exceed what the Japanese can.
The only people that it might be worth to buy a Japanese made one are strict traditionalists, who specifically want a Japanese made sword. For everyone else, it makes zero sense and entirely unnecessary.
Supporting the craft is a good reason to buy a shinsakuto from Japan since Swordsmiths are running out of customers.
We're lucky, we have choices. I feel sorry for the sword enthusiasts that live in Japan. They don't have a choice, they can't get katanas made from overseas, they have to pay what is amount to extortion for the sake of protection of that country's culture. The sword that they can get made from traditional tamahagane are no where near the same quality steel as what modern forges can produce.
Susah bwk benda betul ni.. melenggang lagi senang.. masa ada soalan pistol lawan pisau.. ramai yg tdk akan lupa.. 😂😂😂😂