I think it's also important to note that Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were both Jewish men, who created Captain America before Pearl Harbor and before joining the war was popular in America. It wasn't so much "mindless propaganda" as "America needs to do something about the fact that my people are being killed by the millions." This was specifically in opposition to the strong and relatively popular anti-war movement that had taken hold of America in response to the losses of World War 1.
Right. Like, they also got some pretty serious threats. The US stayed out of the war for so long because a not insignificant part of the population wanted to stay out of the war. Also, Simon and Kirby's faith explains why the story doesn't have the "man should not mess with nature" aspect of most Frankenstein stories: It isn't one. OG Captain American, the man created through knowledge to protect the Jews from those who seek to destroy them, is a Golem.
(Also, it wasn't just isolationists who wanted to stay out of the war. It was also people who thought Hitler wasn't totally wrong. American Nazis are not a new thing.)
@@Daughter_of_Stories Yeah they were a major thing until WW2 drove them underground. They never went away, they just hid. That is until recently when a lot of them came out.
This is probably just a beautiful coincidence, but Chris Evans' character in the movie "Cellular" steals TWO cars. I watched that movie after becoming acquainted with the MCU and thought, "Ah, so *this* is where he learned to steal a car!"
In one of Corridor Crews' "Stuntmen React" videos, one of the stunt guys from Winter Soldier and Civil War said that Evans actually did a bunch of his own stunts and that Evans was great at learning fight choreography (Because Evans has a background in dance)
@@farbodpirouz2457 Too 'liberal' in that he doesn't realize in order to gain true equality and justice, we must abolish the state and reject capitalism; or too 'liberal' in that way conservatives actively despise people with strong moral centers and bafflingly use 'liberal' as an insult, despite most being one themselves according to the classical definition?
It always makes me sad whenever Captain America is turned into a bitter, jingoistic asshole because it’d be “logical” and “realistic”. He is meant to be BETTER than the time he came from! It should seem like he really is too good to be true! He is at his best when he represents this nation’s best self!
Thank You! Not even REAL people are cynical azzholes. Thats why i ahte ehen people get on Disney. Walt said its for the innocene of a child in all of us. And helps kids become hopeful dreamers.
Captain America was the character I was most certain the MCU would mess up. I was convinced he was either going to be a naive boy scout or a jingoistic fool. Instead, he's probably the best-realized character of all, even better than RDJ's Tony Stark.
dajolaw they’ve also somehow managed to make a character that doesn’t have any big obvious flaws (at least, compared to the other avengers) and actually made him interesting. It’s pretty impressive.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Yeah but he's not a push over. If he thinks somethings compromising his values and principles he says no and does his best to stop it.
I'm so grateful for the direction the MCU ended up going with Cap. They turned such a flat, hyper-masculine caricature into such an engaging and fleshed out character. Kudos to Chris Evans, who has given Cap such a warmth to him.
Elizabeth S Comics Cap hasn't been a flat character like the stereotype since at least the 1960s. The writing has sometimes made him relapse into that, but after 70+ years he's far more dimensional than most seem to think.
Eoin O'Connor Oh yeah I didn't mean to imply that comics Cap is flat. He's got 70+ years of character! I more meant how adaptations tend to make Cap as boring as possible
I was very much anti Superhero movie and especially Anti Avengers back in spring summer 2012. I had pretty much ignored the whole of phase 1as it came out during my middle and early high school years and thought nothing of them other than low class transformers level drivel that probably wouldn't appeal to girls anyway. So when Avengers Mania as I like to call it took over everything in 2012 I was kinda pissed. I was convinced it was overrated garbage that everyone would call trash in a few months and refused to see. But then in November of that year my class had a long bus trip from state to state and of course they had movies for us to watch on the way. And Avengers won the vote. I ended up surprisingly loving it and I think Cap was the reason I did, cause shortly after I decided I needed to start watching their solo movies and First Avenger was not only my first but my favorite. I just loved how kind and good and genuine he was. I think I legitimately fell in love for a time. If and when he dies or even just goes back to past and leaves the main MCU I'm not ready and I'm going to be destroyed.
Late to this party, but Cap is also the creation of two Jewish men. Having an ultra-Arian hero who chooses to fight against Hitler and a world where he could rule everything is very important as an understanding of Cap as the ultimate ally. (The current hail Hydra story line in the comics is even more disgusting in the frame of this understanding of the character.)
Candace Sanders I agree it's one thing to compare America to Nazi Germany. It's another thing entirely when you make captain America into a literal Nazi.
Jack Pride No. No, it could not. Captain America is seen as the most trusted superhero in the Marvel Universe, the Big Good. Problem with that is, that blind trust can be dangerous in a world like the MU. That’s something Secret Empire was saying. If that Big Good was unknowingly corrupted, then blind trust in that Big Good can cause lots of problems.
+Loy Turns But that's also _THE_ issue. Captain America stands for a good that we can trust, somebody who can help clear things up. Somebody we can look up to in a world of grey superheroes. Somebody who tries to do the right thing for the sake of it. He can't be corrupted in-universe because it ruins his real-life appeal. Captain America has always fought _against_ that corruption. He's like Marvel's Superman. Once you corrupt Captain America, you're officially trying too hard, especially since there are times Captain America has been at odds with patriots painting themselves as "the good guys" in the past. I could write an essay on how turning Captain America into a Hydra agent is an insult to the readers, an insult to the character, an insult to the Marvel universe, and at the end of the day just pseudo-intellectual edge trying to manufacture drama to sell comics. Captain America wasn't a good choice to show good is corruptible, he was supposed to give us hope that there is still good out there. By destroying that, you're essentially defecating on the concept of morality as a whole. He's long been shown, for the readers, to give hope that not everyone will be corrupted. This is.. quite frankly, a low blow to people looking for inspiration. It's disgusting. Instead of warning about these ills, it's only become them itself. Added to that, these story-lines of somebody viewed as the Big Good being unknowingly corrupted _have already been done_ in the Marvel universe. It's also something that most people are all too aware of in their everyday lives, and these are the people who can find reassurance in Superman or Captain America. There is no excuse, any reason brought up can only serve to illustrate how awful the choice really was.
Millar's an interesting case. His bad is very bad, but then he writes things like 'Jupiter's Circle' and Jupiter's Legacy' which are actually pretty fascinating eviscerations of Silver Age comic heroes.
I think the whole "Steve Rogers, perfect human being" thing would make a lot more sense if you did some examination of Jewish themes in the early comics industry. Steve Rogers was supposed to personify American values, consciously knowing that America didn't live up to them and shaming America for it, particularly antisemitism. There's a decently strong Golem allegory there. This is btw part of why the Jewish community got really pissed when Marvel decided to make him a nazi for secret empire. And then they rubbed salt in the wounds with Magneto, you know, the holocaust survivor.
AdumbroDeus First, Magneto never joined Hydra. Second, Hydra was established in both the comics AND the MCU to predate the Nazi Party by CENTURIES. Third, Secret Empire was about a fascist corrupting what is supposed to be the ultimate symbol of good and using it for evil.
Loy Turns THANK YOU! Every time someone complains that Cap became a Nazi by (becoming some alternate Cosmic-Cube-created Cap whose origin had him) being a part of Hydra I get confused. I started to believe I was the only one who recognized that the Hydra in the MCU very deliberately sneered at Nazism and openly betrayed then when it turned out their goals were diverging too much--remember the scene where the Red Skull says that? And vaporizes his Nazi "superiors?" Also, I always understood the comic Hydra to have been a global and generic evil organization with several evil subcultures, the Nazi branch being one of them. And for people who actually read Secret Empire, that's very clearly not the branch that Hydra Steve belonged to
Exactly. For seventy-plus years, Hydra has been a pretty clear stand-in for Nazis, created by a team of Jewish creators who wanted to show America fighting the Nazis without giving the Nazis any free publicity by plastering swastikas and brownshirts and iron crosses all over their comic books. You can't undo that history. You can retcon it out of continuity but you can't undo our memories of it. For the vast majority of their existence, Hydra has been an extraordinary thinly veiled stand-in for Nazis. You can't just say "That's not true anymore... oh and here's Captain America saying Heil Hydra," and expect us to just roll with these changes. And while, yes, Magento never joined Hydra in the actual story, he did cut a deal with Captain Nazi instead of just murdering him on the spot which, I think, is where most people have a problem with the story. Also, there was a heavily promoted alternate cover that featured Magneto in a Hydra-themed costume, which more than a few people, rightly, took offense at.
It's not like the German National Socialist party was the first thing to ever be racist or bigoted or antisemitic, or fascist or totalitarian either. Saying Hydra as an organization pre-dates the nazi party doesn't at all take away from what it's pretty fucking blatantly supposed to represent and what the character of captain America was literally created in opposition to, you just can't deny this.
Personally, I think that’s the point of the story. Captain America, a symbol and American righteousness and good is corrupted by fascist beliefs to instead promote hatred and totalitarian views by using the cosmic cube to change the past. Much in the same way, neo nazis and white supremacists have been corrupting the US to believe racist, bigoted and evil views by (among other things) acting like the holocaust never happened and saying hitler only hated Jews in an economic sense and wasn’t actually racist, ie by changing the past to make their narrative seem less overtly evil. White supremacy and alt right movements are on the rise in the US and I think the correlation that has with the Secret Empire event coming out is often either overlooked or ignored.
Yeah free comic books are one thing but if a guy in tights showed up to entertain the troops, they probably would have really heckled him like in the movie...
this tells me you don't know anything about the uso. soldiers on the battle front would have probably applauded albert einstien reading a telephone book from Brooklyn and the girls in cap's numbers would have more than shut them up.
if he looked like he was supposed to (big bulky, ready for war) and spoke like he was supposed to (somehow bleak and optimistic at the same time) nah, soldiers would've ate that up the thing about the world wars was they drained you, to an extreme degree even knowing that he was nothing more than a symbol that never shot a rifle in his life would've been a pick me up for the same reason that someone dressed as bugs bunny cross dressing in the trenches would've been a hugely popular move it's a reminder of home, that while you're in hell the world is still moving forward and telling you to get off your fat muddy ass and fight so you can get back home soldiers NOW are more likely to heckle, specifically because they're not drained to an extent where sending them a copy of the electric bill actually acts as a pick me up
Terrific video, I just wanted to mention one small thing. I get why people don't like that Hydra is given blame for everything that's gone wrong since World War II, but SHIELD representing the American political-military-intelligence structure and Hydra representing fascism means that this particular part of the plot makes for some damned fine allegory. We're so busy looking outward to those oversimplified Allies vs. Axis narrative that we miss the fact that fascism is growing inside of our own structures here at home. Despite the fact that what Hydra has done has been horrifying, with wars between satellite states in the Cold War, the Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, the US becoming the world's greatest arms manufacturer, our military becoming a pawn to secure resources and oust regimes we don't like, all while consent is manufactured here at home.... it's something we allowed to happen because we were focused externally instead of internally. From my understanding, which perhaps I'm alone in, Hydra (fascism) inside of SHIELD (American politics/intelligence/military), required that when Captain America becomes unfrozen (our own sense of patriotic or simply moral vigilance being reawakened), he focuses not on false external threats (Middle Eastern terror or Chinese economic dominance, as examples), but actually focus on how his best friend has been turned into an amoral tool (the use of the American military and intelligence services for things like wars of aggression, wars over resources, regime change, etc.) and the institutions which have been infected by the same underlying force as our enemies of old (nationalism, xenophobia, racism and white supremacy, the politics of fear, warmongering, reactionary populism, corruption, etc.). While it's simplified for the movie, certainly, this is still a pretty amazing allegorical framing of how it's patriotic to stand against your own national institutions because they are just as susceptible to fascism as our supposed enemies. Honestly, this was my favorite part of an already amazing movie.
Exactly....Hydra stands for a specific mind-set, a mind-set which can easily corrupt an organisation which was originally formed with the goal to protect. It couldn't be more poignant...that the movie was released around the same time the NSA affair became a thing made it even more current. And then you have Civil War, with its whole "an empire which is toppling from within" theme, and a villain which takes apart a powerful rival by releasing the right information at the right time. (At this point I am kind of afraid what will happen in Infinity war).
Are you implying that Infinity War will be the Avengers narrowly beating Thanos due to Russian interference even though technically Thanos won? I guess we'll have to stay tuned.
This is why I think "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" is the best Marvel movie by a mile. "Iron Man 3" actually has some of the same subversion to it (in the way the truly terrifying foreign terrorist threat turns out to be a comical fake covering up something more homegrown and venal), but it's a sidelight, not the main focus of the movie.
I would agree with that Matt, if they hadn't utterly messed up what has to be one of the best written short runs in any comic (ie, Warren Ellis's six issue Extremis story) They had no need to use Extremis, any Mcguffin would have done for that part of the film's plot.
I personally loved the theme of soldiers vs spies in TWS. Steve, Bucky, & Sam are former soldiers living in the modern world of spies where compartmentalization is the foundation of national security (Natasha, Fury, Agent 13, Rumlow, Pierce, etc... are all either hiding a secret or lying), which Steve openly detests. That is until he's forced to honor a dying man's warning to not trust anyone by hiding evidence and mustering up the best lie he could: "I don't know". Which both Natasha and Pierce easily pick up on, further cementing that such a method just doesn't suit him. Hence, Steve decides to simply tell the truth that he can't reveal what he knows, leading Pierce to turn him into a fugitive and Natasha to show him the ways of a spy in order to stay one step ahead of SHIELD. Even though her methods prove to be more effective than his in the modern world, he still questions how she could live such a dishonest life. Especially since the only person they can trust who's not under SHIELD's radar is a former pararescueman, and another acquaintance of Steve's that they could've trusted turns out to be unwillingly under Pierce's control. Ultimately, the turning point of their predicament comes not through the ways of a spy but by Steve using something that spies can never have: integrity. After breaking into SHIELD, he confidently gets on a mic and tells this far-fetched story of a supposedly defunct Nazi organization infiltrating the agency for the past several decades. With this claim, he gives the agents an ultimatum on which side to believe: Captain America's words or each other's. While the modern world has made way for better alternatives to sacrificing soldiers on the battlefield, Cap proves that some traditional ways are best not forgotten. For no other Avenger could've turned the tide twice w/ just his truthful words.
Great video! just wanna drop in my few cents on the discussion 1) RE: Wouldn't Steve Rogers Be Racist? Brooklyn boy Steve Rogers is a retcon, he's originally from the Lower East Side like one of his creators Jack Kirby. LES in the 20s-30s was poor, working class immigrants & multi cultural with one of the largest Jewish communities. It was associated with leftist politics like anarchism, socialism& communism during the 20s & also had an active gay community (like at webster hall). Community wasn't harmonious but being exposed to diversity itself influenced Kirby & his works and it makes sense Steve Rogers would be more tolerant than most (but i guess not far fetched with use of outdated language & other benign acts of ignorance... he was called out in the comics by his childhood best friend Arnie Roth, when Steve tried centering the pain of the gay community's AIDS epidemic & Arnies personal loss of husband to be about how Steve too, was sad.... or when Steve was lauding the founding fathers in front of Sam Wilson & Sam called him out on the fact the founding fathers were slave owners, & steve tried with the "yea but still... great guys" lol) 2) Earths Mightiest Hero is a great cartoon & the only thing it really does to try tie into the movies is giving Tony Stark...gold?? eyes?? which closer to MCU's brown rather than 616 blue?? its a great digest version of most of the important comics canon into the 2000s era (Avengers Assemble is MCU cartoon but honestly it gives me more joy than MCU & fulfills some post-2012 Avengers hopes & dreams so i got a soft spot for it) 3) Civil war was a mess but it had really good iron man tie-ins that honestly... make a lot of the tony bad writing more palatable (Civil war: frontline, Iron man #13 & #14 that ties into CW, Casualties of War, The Confession, couple of other tie in issues involving Illuminati, Reed, where its pretty much stated that Tony's literally taking the best possible course of action & he was right etc etc.) Plus Tony's arc that follows through CW & post-cap assassination is really great. Steves bad writing pretty much hinges on the audience being told he's virtuous so he must be right... the event is a good read for the emotional aspect between Steve & Tony & their longtime friendship being tested but still rife with OOCness at critical junctures to induce the continuous drama & tie in reading is mandatory if you don't wanna be bombarded by millar's flimsy writing. 4) Others pointed it out already, but... Cap was created not purely for USA military propaganda but rather by 2 jewish men highlighting the evils of Nazi Germany & rallying people to action in a time where American population didn't really wanna get involved in the fight, and using a man who looks like Steve was to sell the idea (plus Steve not being a tale of "frankenstein's monster" but rather a golem, a Jewish folk tale creature designed to protect or avenge the Jewish community from anti-semitism but also sometimes told as a cautionary tale of life becoming too powerful & going awry) undeniably Cap's patriotic mean theres complicated symbolism & intentional & unintentional propaganda about USA military & country itself with bonus of this character becoming a marketable franchise under disny but thats another can of worms
This was such a great and thoughtful reply! I'm Jewish and never thought about that angle before. I love the idea that Cap is a sort of Golem; the traditional, Jewish folklore's version of a superhero of sorts. Such a cool take!
Joshua Hogberg exactly. It wasn't a forced conflict between badly written characters, but about reasonable people who come to diametrically opposed but understandable positions on the Sokovia Accords based on their experiences in the past . People talk about how horrible Tony was in the comic, but a whole bunch of characters came off looking like tools or idiots or both. The only major player that I felt came off ok was Spider-Man.
Jay Elmore this is what I've been saying for years. Maria hill was an idiot for her handling of the whole matter. Cap was a dick to tony in what should have been a moment of goodwill, plus he's defending a position that is indefensible if examined too closely. Tony was a fascist. Reed was completely amoral. The X-men's stance of "you didn't help us during Mutant Registration, so we won't help you with 'your issue'" makes no sense. (Psst- *you guys are superheroes too*). Only Spider-Man comes off okay, who is pro reg until Tony goes way too far. He supports the accountability that comes with registration, but not the draconian means with which it is enforced.
The Civil War and its Mark Millar awful was when I just gave up collecting comics. I figured out afterwards I used to drop about $500 a year on them things, but they were fun to get ripped on bong hits and just read a big 'ol stack of them
Jay Elmore I agree that a lot of characters weren't their normal selves in some respects, but I don't think they were that out there to be honest. A lot of these character progressions could have been fairly easily justified if the main event series spent more time on character development instead of being all plot and leaving the character development to the gazillion tie-ins (a lot of which did a pretty solid job of exploring character actions and motivations, especially for Captain America, Iron-man, Spider-man and the Fantastic Four, but especially Reed Richards). The story itself was great in my opinion, it was just poorly fleshed out in the main Civil War series because Mark Millar... That said, the movie did a much better job working as a story in execution with much more fleshed out characters than the event comic itself.
+TheEverythingGeek aka Hawk Flame Indefensible if examined too closely? Because he opposes registration? That seems a bit.. biased. Especially since superheroes have made pretty good arguments why their identities should be a secret for a long time, and since more government regulation is a hotly debated political topic. If that's not what you're talking about, okay, but to me Tony's side was indefensible. I'm not going to say for certain it was, but I'm bringing it up to point out that there are valid disagreements with what you've said. At the very least, it's defensible even if you disagree.
Good, informative video. I think it's also important to talk about the context he was created in - he was created by two Jewish first-gen immigrants during the rise of Hitler, and his early politics (i.e. punching Hitler) were also a power fantasy from two of an oppressed group of people that was being killed and tortured in mass numbers.
5:30: "He skips out Vietnam entirely" Of course he does. CA is the american 'ideal', the shield defending the world, the american Eagle. Everything good and great about the USA. Vietnam was the exact opposite. That stain on america, that war they lost because they were the bad guys and the public knew it. that time they were a hammer and stole beating down the little guy instead of a shield. The captain america of Vietnam is called The Punisher. He's the viet Vet in mind, body, soul and action.
Vietnam represents a long struggle for independence marred by internal warfare between communists and capitalists constantly battered down by racist outside powers showing up and shooting everything that moved. It started with the Japanese, then the French, then the Communist Bloc, then the Americans, who eventually left and watched from the other side of the world as south Vietnam was swallowed by totalitarianism.
Your view of the Vietnam War is grossly anachronistic. The idea that we were the 'bad guys' implies that the Vietcong and the NVA were 'the good guys', a laughable notion. At worst, our forces were one side of a grey coin, together with Russia.
+Sheeid Mahfagga That requires a new definition of totalitarianism. If people are free to walk from city to city, criticizing the regime, it is not totalitarian. As far as I am aware, that does not describe south Vietnam in the timeframe where it was an American ally.
My mental canon for MCU Steve (and all the incredibly awkward things he doesn't accidentally say) is that once Shield admitted he was in the 21st century, they basically made him take a whole bunch of classes in "how not to act like an ass in he future" before some agent shanked him. (Also, I'm pretty sure the Howlies being integrated was supposed to be atypical. I guess the SSR... an international organization.... had very different rules from the U.S. army.)
I like it. Close in on Steve, walking down a hallway flanked by Fury and Coulson, but conspicuously deferring to the latter only. Coulson: "Not sure. You'd have to ask the guy in charge." Steve: "Who's that?"Coulson, gestures to Fury: "Him." Steve, turning to Fury, slightly incredulous: "You?"Fury: "Something wrong with that?" Steve: "No! It's just... well, you're a negro." The audible hiss of Coulson sucking in a breath whilst cringing. Fury levels a withering stare on Steve first, then Coulson.Coulson: "Diversity training. On it." I mean... I like the different universe different rules reasoning more, but this was fun. Took a lot of restraint not to have Fury tell Coulson to collect his super soldier.
I'd say such a situation is likely, but something to note about Steve is that the reason he was picked for the Super solider experiment was how philosophically antithetical he was to the very regime he would be fighting. If Cap made a comment about this I'd imagine it would be in line of "oh finally got to this point of sanity huh?" rather than a comment mired in the racism of low expectations.
Lillian B: That makes a lot of sense really. It's not really something interesting enough to have featured in a film, but you could totally imagine him having a few days of 'society training'.
I'm with Lindsay on that one - the story falls apart in the second half of 'Winter Soldier'. Starting with the Hydra reveal. "It's lame. It's extremely lame. The word is lame".
I don't "hate" the hydra twist, but the narrative would be much, MUCH more poignant and stronger in theme if there was no hydra and Steve was advocating free thinking and questioning authority because the regular ole government had tons of problems, because they do. I think the moral still comes across, but it would have been so much more of a statement to not have a secret society pulling a bunch of hidden strings.
I kind of interpreted the lack of actual nazis in the first captain america movie as a creative choice used to get around having swastikas in the movie. Like, I read Hydra as a fictional gestapo, like a unit within the German military machine. But maybe that was just me being hopeful?
Good point, the film was shown to international audiences. Both the UK and Germany are big markets outside the US. Showing that symbol is not allowed in Germany and in the UK it is problematic
@@Stettafire not entirely true, in context of art or documentation it's allowed in Germany. Therefore they are to be seen in movies like raiders of the lost ark... but not in the video game cause games aren't considered art there :D
Not to mention that Hydra still definitely are Nazis. They just severed ties with the ACTUAL Nazis purely on the basis that the Third Reich was such an inefficient and self-defeating regime that the Red Skull figured they would hold them back.
@@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick Yeah, I've always interpreted them as the Nazis so Nazi even the Nazis couldn't keep up. Not as anything separate from or other than real Nazis.
Nick Spencer's Cap run was a commentary about how fascism can infiltrate America by co-opting patriotism. Rather timely, considering the times we live in, like many Cap stories.
Loy Turns he'd have a point if fascism has actually infiltrated the country by co-opting patriotism, which it hasn't... I don't care if you like the president or not, It really doesn't matter, but he's pretty clearly neither a fascist or a generic dictator in general, especjally given that he's largely shrinking the size and power of government and the executive branch, the exact opposite things a dictator would actually do, and due to the fact he's a straight up capitalist (and admittedly somewhat of a protectionist) and not a national socialist. He's also never threatened to genocide people or throw them in concentration camps (not even FDR could say hevdidnt do that). Half of his immediate family is also either Jewish by birth or practice, not to mention his wife is eastern European and in pretty sure from a part of Europe that acthal fascists seriously screwed up (until the commies came and screwed the place up even worse somehow). As far as the so called "Alt-right" is concerned (even though they have little to nothing in common with actual right wing ideas), there have been neo-Nazis in this country for generations and they're not really growing either. They might just seem that way because the media has only now really shone a spotlight on them in idiotic attempts to call them his core support vase (even though they're all oretty torn on the guy because they believed the media lie tjat he was an ethnonationalists and really just a civic nationalist, whom the Alt-right generally hate). Nick Spencer is a good writer for the most part, but his take on social and polotical commentary just doesn't ring true to the reality of the situation, or to anyone outside of a really narrow ideological perspective at the very least. It's also deliberately divisive and toxic in the way it treats its readers and characters. The concept of Hydra Cap is actually pretty cool in my opinion and if only it were framed differently, it could have been a great story. In fact it has all of the ingredients of a potentially great story. The problem is that Spencer not only doesn't really love or care about the character or for the idea of the "American ideal" that Cap is supposed to represent that Spencer's frame of reference just comes off like the delusional ravings of a guy disconnected from the world outside of his echo chamber...
Tyler Worsham Yeah, President Putin-Pawn’s action have had actual experts on authoritarian governments raising alarm bells, what with his endless whining about the press and his recent demand for a big North Korea-style military parade, and his supporters’ cult-level devotion to him. You say that Nick Spencer hates Cap because of Secret Empire, I say he is just merely continuing a tradition many writers of Cap have been doing since the character was created: Commenting on the state of America. In the original Secret Empire story of the 1970s, Cap quit being Cap because of his disgust over the level of corruption in the American government at the time (The story was out around the time of Watergate), and now...history is repeating itself, on a bigger scale. The Fat Russia-Loving Orange Administration is corrupt on a level that makes Watergate look positively pleasant. Hate crimes are on the rise. Spencer is just doing now what Englehart did in the 70s.
I always love that particular strain of non-logic. "The President is a hyper nationialistic fascist representing and working on the behalf of the worst part of the people within this nation!" ALSO: "The President is a pawn/puppet/collaborator with a completely different nationalistic leader working on the behalf of that OTHER nation!" Like, pick one please. You can't have both and be taken seriously at all.
SonofaGlitch it's possible for two seemingly incompatible ideologies to compliment each other. General Pinochet was a murderous despot who had complete control of his country and was suppressing democracy in Chile who was also put into power by the US who were afraid that the democratically elected president was a communist. One can be a fascist autocrat and a puppet at the same time. Much like one can be a country that cares greatly about freedom while helping to suppress it in other countries. If Russia did in fact interfere with the US election, hey, at least it didn't end with a military coup, unlike in Chile.
This was a tough episode to watch. It was good, very well thought out. I'm just really invested in Steve as this underprivileged, chronically ill kid who becomes the conscience of a nation. It's such a rare thing to see characters who honestly show integrity and courage and kindness unironically in the age of post-apocalyptic grimdark re-imaginings, and I'm really bitter about Steve not being that (and reminders that I've projected most of that onto a character that should realistically be a pretty obnoxious person by modern standards.)
Tim de Visser The fact that he is all that AND an obnoxious person, is why I love Steve Rogers with my whole heart. I love him like I love breathing: not out of enjoyment, but as a necessity to live.
Honestly he generally is all of those things still. Sometimes he gets a bit disillusioned or cynical, but that is usually fixed by the end of that story arch. Also right about when Clint Barton shows up to drag him around to cheer him up which is always great, or some kind of emotional moment with Tony. He holds true to that even more in the non solo series takes like Avengers, or when he shows up in someone else's comic. He can be a bit of an obnoxious dick depending on who write him (*stares in Nick Spencer*) but typically he's still genuinely nice and kind and trying to do what's best, just also having learned how to snark somewhat. I'm a big fan of Tony Stark, so trust me I know how shitty it is when your fave gets used in a conflict in a way that's either totally out of character or only show from an opposing light by people who don't actually understand them.
hearing that point about the military subsidies for man of steel and transformers is simultaneously a "what?!?!? no way" moment, AND a "wow that explains a lot," moment.
I can tell she put effort into this, too. Sure, it's about her appearance, but its the stuff she chose to do. She totally evokes the 1950s patriotic mother motif. She's just really good at this, and has been since at least Hocus Pocus. It really does add to the content.
"If Steve left the world in 1944, how is he not a huge f*cking racist?" Yes, racism was more socially accepable then, and people could get away with saying shit that they can't really say now. THAT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE FROM THAT TIME WAS A RACIST. Actively anti-racist people did exist in that time. Cap hates bullies. Show me a racist that isn't a bully.
Рік тому+4
That's adressed in the video. Just because something is consider racist now doesn't mean it always was. Just because he wasn't a racist back then doesn't mean he would have full context of what it is consider racist now. It's like that episode from Star Trek where they take Lincoln into the future. Lincoln isn't racist but he does use the n-word, because for him that's just a word to refer to black people, and he only stops using it when one of the characters explains to him that, in Star Trek's future, the word is outdated and it barely holds any meaning.
@ Well, since I made this comment two years ago, I don't recall what was in the video. My point was that just because somebody lives in a racist time period, doesn't mean those views are universally accepted, and individuals can think and feel differently than the societal norm of the period they live in. Not whether or not that period is anything like this one.
Not everyone is the past was racist... Some people were & adjusted as they aged & society progressed, like Cap may have, but some never had to overcome their prejudice as it didn't exist in the first place. My grandma was born in 1920 & neither her, her brother nor her sister were racist, homophobic nor sexist. I feel lucky to have be raised by such a progressive family.
I think it's less that EVERYONE was racist. It's more that the culture of the time being far more racist in the past would influence the way that anybody from that time speaks. For example, my grandmother has been really supportive of my gender transition, but that doesn't mean she had the language tools to communicate about it in the way that the trans community would. She's learning a lot, which is great, but she also has lived through the last five decades and evolved with the times. Steve Rogers didn't live through the shifts in the ways we refer to people of color, so it wouldn't be surprising if he used outdated language, or even had outdated ideas about the roles people of color (and also women, tbh) should and can play in our culture. Racism doesn't make you an inherently terrible person when we live in a country built on racism. It's embedded in all of us, and it's every individual's job to be aware of it and work on it, especially white people.
To quote a vine: “Wouldn’t Capitan America be a huge fcking racist?” “Excuse me, do you know what he went through before he got the serum? DID YOU SEE HOW SHORT HE WAS?! HE FEELS THEIR PAIN.”
@TheBrabon1 Or someone who would have been a product of their time? I don't know if you noticed but it was pretty fucking racist back then, not in small pockets of the country but everywhereeeee. Also to the OP, how exactly does he feel their pain? Sure he could grasp what it's like to be shunned/ridiculed to an extent but beyond that? Segregation was a thing, blacks were hated no matter where they went and what they did, forget about just trying to join the army. Which, if Steve hadn't made it could have tried his hand at many, many other things that wouldn't have been so hyper masculine, that people wouldn't give him shit for not fitting an ideal. They didn't hate him, the system wasn't built against him, he didn't have years of history dictating to people how he should be treated.
@@shadowboxing7029 Cap was born to Irish immigrants in the 1920's. He might not have faced predjudice on the same level as african americans but I bet he was not oblivious to what it was like.
@@HiNi. As purely as he is portrayed I would think he had to have some awareness about their struggles absolutely. Maybe knowing their pain wasn't meant to convey a deeper more intimate understanding, that's just how I saw it.
I love that all your Loose Cannon video intros are different. Standard intros have their place, but I love the unique flavor of each intro. Keep it up!
I don’t know the context of the clip, but what if it’s ironic? Like, Captain America is poking fun at the idea that he’d be so out of touch that he gawks at the most benign modern technology.
I like that this doesn't include the shitty Nazi version because it allows me to pretend that's not a thing. Also, damn Lindsay, you rock the 40's look. Well done.
Troy Shostakov I feel like Marvels claiming that America is now Nazi germany which is not only bullshit but offensive. You don't see anyone being literally fucking labelled
They've actually taken steps to distance Hydra from being Nazis, Red Skull still is but he was basically alone. Cap is specifically not meant to be seen as racist or sexist or supremist, but as one that believes fascism is correct and that a world with super humans is too chaotic and dangerous to allow for the freedoms that would make super heros. He's basically reversed his position for Civil War and taken it a step or two further.
It's not even that big of a mess, can someone please read the comic for once so they understand that it's actually well written and a pretty good social commentary on the negatives of fascism?
Strange Hero Do we really need more antifascist social commentary? It's pretty easy to see why fascism is a bad fucking idea. I honestly think we need to remind everyone why democracy is better
I just discovered your channel. Holy cow, what a treat. I will be watching your videos during my lunch breaks for the foreseeable future. Thank for your wonderful eloquence and insights into these fun and interesting topics.
This is a better breakdown of a comic character than I have ever seen from a comic channel. They always pepper in to much "and he did this badass thing, and omg that badass thing." and end up repeating the same information 20 times in 2 minutes in order to pad out a 10+ minute runtime.
"If he's from the 40s, why isnt he racist?" lmao. non-racist white men existed, though they were rare. my grandfather is also a WWII vet and very progressive, even by today's standards.
@@LSRandomHandle even before social justice was a popular thing, my grandfather believed in equality and protecting the rights of minorities. He spent most of his life in South Dakota, where land was taken from the Lakota tribe and turned into cities and towns and even back then he acknowledged the Lakota people's rights and wanted to do whatever he could to fight for better treatment of native Americans. He has been vocal in his community about it for many years, and made history by being one of the only white photographers to shoot for the Lakota tribe. He photographed the 50th reunion of the survivors of the Battle of the Little Bighorn, I believe only one survivor remains to this day. My grandfather was someone who was ahead of his time, he wasn't someone who just went with the flow, and I know there are hundreds of "old white men" just like him who shared similar progressive values before they became the mainstream.
Steve was a child of poor Irish immigrants (still somewhat of a despised minority at the time) and a fine arts student in New York during the age of The New Deal. Objectively Steve Rogers was what some folks on the Right would consider a limp-wristed city-boy welfare-queen job-stealing immigrant, and demographically it's almost impossible that he wouldn't be considered a screaming 'lefty' in the 1930s. I'd estimate that would still put him left of US-center on plenty of stuff today.
This entire video is just panning everything really. Like the First Avenger was bad because they didn't make the Nazis the villains? That would be so stupid. Like what even is that opinion? Or Steve would be racist because he's from the 1940's? Jeeeesus
You should re-upload the videos where you compare The War of the Worlds with Independence Day. I know it was when you were still Nostalgia Chick, but I really liked that one and would really like to see it again but it's disappeared from the internet.
It's awesome watching how well Lindsay is able to dissect each genre with ease. I really loved the scene where Captain America saves the old ladies purse in Venice Beach. It's so amazingly cheesy and I love Venice.
I've just discovered your channel and really enjoy your videos. I grew up reading Captain America comics in the 60s. He was one of my favorites, along with Thor and Spiderman. I also enjoyed the representation of Captain America in the recent Marvel MCU movies. Perhaps he is unrealistically decent and pure and ethical and kind and full of integrity. But, what's wrong with having someone like that, as an 11 year old boy, to look up to and aspire to be? Looking back, I think I loved his character most precisely because of those qualities.
I want to thank you for knowing about Big McLargehuge. That is possibly one of the most cited mst3k references in my life, and I love that you know the joy/horror/confusion/comic gold/cinema sin/train wreck that is the space mutiny episode. I just never thought I'd hear it from somewhere on the internet. You made my night. Oh and you're brilliant and engaging in general, so that's pretty wonderful too. Keep it up.
Lindsay, I love your videos and this is off topic, but I love your makeup looks and I love your lipstick in this video. More on topic, I love learning from your loose canon videos!
The depth of your analysis is complemented perfectly with your acting skills. The way you talk is natural and believable and your writing has great humor while being dense with relevant information. When I finally find a job I will be ecstatically become one of your patrons. And as a side note I am jealous of your makeup skills.
New subscriber here, going through your videos and enjoying them immensely. It's like binging a television show that rips apart continuity errors, tackles tropes, and tears away the veil of suspended disbelief against the cries of "But it's just a movie!" and the "but it's in the script" hand-waving. Though... Around 6:50 it totally looks like you're trying to wink but your eyes decided they didn't want to cooperate at all with that plan. I had to rewatch it to see if that's what was going on, or if it was just the glare on your glasses from your lighting obscuring one eye. Definitely the former. But it totally worked with what you were saying 😂
Wasn't Steve only like, 20 when he got frozen? I don't think he'd feel that displaced from other people his age after like 5 - 10 years. He would certainly have less in common with 80 year olds with 60 years of different experiences than him than he would with some 30 year olds that he's had 10 years of recent shared experience with.
Great video, although you almost lost me when you said Earth's Mightiest Heroes was unremarkable. That was my shit back in the day (along with Justice League Unlimited) and imo it still holds up as one of the best animated comic-book TV series to date.
2 things. Mark Millar sucks. Like REALLY sucks. However, I'd argue that Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is the exact opposite of unremarkable. Especially when it comes to their portrayal of Cap. Great video though!
It so perfectly captures Cap and Hawkeye (poor movie Clint, soooooo boring) and especially Janet, and it finally succeeded in making Hank Pym interesting. It is what I watch, when I want to watch Avengers.
Yeah I was surprised she called Earth's Mightiest Heroes unremarkeble. Granted I haven't watched it since it aired but I always hear people raving praise to it, saying that it's one of the best modern Marvel cartoons and so on.
EMH is pretty good, though it does have it's major issues. Like, anatomy trying to imagine a skeleton inside of characters like Cap is a challenge to say the least. The Natasha storyline also wasn't handled super well either. Some voice choices are also pretty questionable. I love that it actually has Jan though, she deserves everything great in the world, and the most tolerable Hank that I've seen, and they did a good job introducing Scott. Jane as a medic is nice to see too, same with Bobbi being badass. Carol's origin was actually pretty spot on and I loved the older Ms Marvel costume even though I love Warbird. Amora is also probably the best I've seen her, and seeing her work with Loki and basically running everything was so good. Jan and Sue getting to bitch about how their boys are the worst gave me life because Hank and Reed and just the worst and don't deserve them. It just makes me sad that even with the more fleshed out cast and a lot more women in it, it still couldn't pass the bechdel test, like, how can you have that many and not have two girls talk without it being about a guy??? Season 2 spends so much time with some of the most badass ladies, Nat Bobbi and Daisy, just hanging out around Fury silently as he figures everything out, which was just so shitty.
I was trying to watch this video and calmly contemplate the points being raised until: Hang Glider! Busted out laughing, both times. Wowza, what a perfect combination of wit and information. Thank you once again!!
Thank you for explaining 1602. I bought it, I read it and when I was done I felt cheated and stupified. It's comforting to learn I wasn't the only one. Neil Gaiman is normally sure entertainment but not this time.
Just wanted to say thank you Lindsey your videos are thought provoking and entertaining, your wit is delightful, and I enjoy the low key editing of all your videos (i.e. not spastic and full of bombastic effects. It really puts a focus on your well written essay in each video.
This video was great but don't agree with your opinion on Winter soldier the allies did actually recruited German scientists after the war so it makes sense for their beliefs and aspects of there society to influence the government and national security community.
17:08 that line right there has been repeated by me dozens of times whenever I talk about a character that dies an impermanent death.... as they often do in comics. I really wish I was more tech savvy and I could make that into a meme. Seriously, Lindsay.... and I know that this is an old video and I doubt you'll ever see this content...but I wish you could at some point harness the amount of power you have over this medium. You're basically the best video essayist out there.... is it inappropriate to call you the Video Essay Goddess?
I think it's also important to note that Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were both Jewish men, who created Captain America before Pearl Harbor and before joining the war was popular in America. It wasn't so much "mindless propaganda" as "America needs to do something about the fact that my people are being killed by the millions." This was specifically in opposition to the strong and relatively popular anti-war movement that had taken hold of America in response to the losses of World War 1.
+
Right. Like, they also got some pretty serious threats. The US stayed out of the war for so long because a not insignificant part of the population wanted to stay out of the war.
Also, Simon and Kirby's faith explains why the story doesn't have the "man should not mess with nature" aspect of most Frankenstein stories: It isn't one. OG Captain American, the man created through knowledge to protect the Jews from those who seek to destroy them, is a Golem.
(Also, it wasn't just isolationists who wanted to stay out of the war. It was also people who thought Hitler wasn't totally wrong. American Nazis are not a new thing.)
@@Daughter_of_Stories Yeah they were a major thing until WW2 drove them underground. They never went away, they just hid. That is until recently when a lot of them came out.
letsuselogic1 Yeah, taking in jewish refugees in 1939 was less popular with americans than taking in syrian refugees nowadays is.
I loved that in Winter Soldier they paid tribute to Cap stealing cars in the previous incarnations.
They paid tribute to the Red Skull catching the frisbee shield in First Avenger.
But he didn't ask someone to pull over because he was going to get sick. A missed opportunity.
He steals a car in civil war too
This is probably just a beautiful coincidence, but Chris Evans' character in the movie "Cellular" steals TWO cars. I watched that movie after becoming acquainted with the MCU and thought, "Ah, so *this* is where he learned to steal a car!"
Chris Evans is also a super cool guy in real life, and he's talked about how playing Captain America rubbed off on him.
It's not surprising that so many people love him.
In one of Corridor Crews' "Stuntmen React" videos, one of the stunt guys from Winter Soldier and Civil War said that Evans actually did a bunch of his own stunts and that Evans was great at learning fight choreography (Because Evans has a background in dance)
He truly has America's Ass
He's too liberal.
@@farbodpirouz2457 Too 'liberal' in that he doesn't realize in order to gain true equality and justice, we must abolish the state and reject capitalism; or too 'liberal' in that way conservatives actively despise people with strong moral centers and bafflingly use 'liberal' as an insult, despite most being one themselves according to the classical definition?
“Nobody’s perfect.”
“I beg to differ.”
BEST LINE OF THE VIDEO !!
Chris Evan's face was kissed by the angels. True
Chris evans is an absolute Chad.
It always makes me sad whenever Captain America is turned into a bitter, jingoistic asshole because it’d be “logical” and “realistic”.
He is meant to be BETTER than the time he came from! It should seem like he really is too good to be true! He is at his best when he represents this nation’s best self!
I think this idea that a patriotic superhero would be a jingoistic asshole originated with The Comedian from Watchmen.
Thank You! Not even REAL people are cynical azzholes. Thats why i ahte ehen people get on Disney. Walt said its for the innocene of a child in all of us. And helps kids become hopeful dreamers.
Captain American is the dream that may never come true but we gotta work hard to get closer to it everyday
@@slothbaby2104 , he's basically the patriotic version of "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
@@stephaniewozny3852 Hell yeah,
Captain America was the character I was most certain the MCU would mess up. I was convinced he was either going to be a naive boy scout or a jingoistic fool. Instead, he's probably the best-realized character of all, even better than RDJ's Tony Stark.
dajolaw they’ve also somehow managed to make a character that doesn’t have any big obvious flaws (at least, compared to the other avengers) and actually made him interesting. It’s pretty impressive.
@@caitlinerickson7355 I've said it before, I'll say it again; MCU Cap is the best Superman ever put on film
@@harrylane4 nah chris reeves superman is perfect
He still is a boy scout.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Yeah but he's not a push over. If he thinks somethings compromising his values and principles he says no and does his best to stop it.
I'm so grateful for the direction the MCU ended up going with Cap. They turned such a flat, hyper-masculine caricature into such an engaging and fleshed out character. Kudos to Chris Evans, who has given Cap such a warmth to him.
Elizabeth S
Comics Cap hasn't been a flat character like the stereotype since at least the 1960s.
The writing has sometimes made him relapse into that, but after 70+ years he's far more dimensional than most seem to think.
Eoin O'Connor Oh yeah I didn't mean to imply that comics Cap is flat. He's got 70+ years of character! I more meant how adaptations tend to make Cap as boring as possible
I was very much anti Superhero movie and especially Anti Avengers back in spring summer 2012. I had pretty much ignored the whole of phase 1as it came out during my middle and early high school years and thought nothing of them other than low class transformers level drivel that probably wouldn't appeal to girls anyway. So when Avengers Mania as I like to call it took over everything in 2012 I was kinda pissed. I was convinced it was overrated garbage that everyone would call trash in a few months and refused to see. But then in November of that year my class had a long bus trip from state to state and of course they had movies for us to watch on the way. And Avengers won the vote. I ended up surprisingly loving it and I think Cap was the reason I did, cause shortly after I decided I needed to start watching their solo movies and First Avenger was not only my first but my favorite.
I just loved how kind and good and genuine he was. I think I legitimately fell in love for a time. If and when he dies or even just goes back to past and leaves the main MCU I'm not ready and I'm going to be destroyed.
@@l.tc.5032 Status now?
@@l.tc.5032 howve you been handling it
You ought to be careful with how much you defrost and refreeze your Caps, as they can be susceptible to freezer burn.
Looks like they didn't learn that lesson for their Soldats
The texture also gets funny. Nothing worse that a kind of soggy Captain America.
Also they tend to unfreeze super cranky and are prone to throwing their shield and body slamming the first people they see.
Yup. After the third time defrosting, the virginity becomes permanent.
Late to this party, but Cap is also the creation of two Jewish men. Having an ultra-Arian hero who chooses to fight against Hitler and a world where he could rule everything is very important as an understanding of Cap as the ultimate ally. (The current hail Hydra story line in the comics is even more disgusting in the frame of this understanding of the character.)
Candace Sanders I agree it's one thing to compare America to Nazi Germany. It's another thing entirely when you make captain America into a literal Nazi.
Fascists take power by co-opting patriotism and painting themselves as "the good guys". That was the whole point of Secret Empire.
Loy Turns That could have been done without perverting Steve Rogers
Jack Pride No. No, it could not. Captain America is seen as the most trusted superhero in the Marvel Universe, the Big Good. Problem with that is, that blind trust can be dangerous in a world like the MU. That’s something Secret Empire was saying. If that Big Good was unknowingly corrupted, then blind trust in that Big Good can cause lots of problems.
+Loy Turns But that's also _THE_ issue. Captain America stands for a good that we can trust, somebody who can help clear things up. Somebody we can look up to in a world of grey superheroes. Somebody who tries to do the right thing for the sake of it. He can't be corrupted in-universe because it ruins his real-life appeal. Captain America has always fought _against_ that corruption. He's like Marvel's Superman. Once you corrupt Captain America, you're officially trying too hard, especially since there are times Captain America has been at odds with patriots painting themselves as "the good guys" in the past.
I could write an essay on how turning Captain America into a Hydra agent is an insult to the readers, an insult to the character, an insult to the Marvel universe, and at the end of the day just pseudo-intellectual edge trying to manufacture drama to sell comics. Captain America wasn't a good choice to show good is corruptible, he was supposed to give us hope that there is still good out there. By destroying that, you're essentially defecating on the concept of morality as a whole. He's long been shown, for the readers, to give hope that not everyone will be corrupted. This is.. quite frankly, a low blow to people looking for inspiration. It's disgusting. Instead of warning about these ills, it's only become them itself.
Added to that, these story-lines of somebody viewed as the Big Good being unknowingly corrupted _have already been done_ in the Marvel universe. It's also something that most people are all too aware of in their everyday lives, and these are the people who can find reassurance in Superman or Captain America. There is no excuse, any reason brought up can only serve to illustrate how awful the choice really was.
"Mark Millar, patron saint of angry 13-year-old boys."
Yep, pretty much.
Mark Millar, patron saint of comics
I thought that was Zack Snyder or Michael Bay
MovieMan22 They're all that. So are Jim Lee, Chuck Austen, and Rob Liefeld (at his most annoying)
kory stephens “Rob Liefeld (at his most annoying)” so, Rob 99% of the time?
Millar's an interesting case. His bad is very bad, but then he writes things like 'Jupiter's Circle' and Jupiter's Legacy' which are actually pretty fascinating eviscerations of Silver Age comic heroes.
I think the whole "Steve Rogers, perfect human being" thing would make a lot more sense if you did some examination of Jewish themes in the early comics industry.
Steve Rogers was supposed to personify American values, consciously knowing that America didn't live up to them and shaming America for it, particularly antisemitism. There's a decently strong Golem allegory there.
This is btw part of why the Jewish community got really pissed when Marvel decided to make him a nazi for secret empire. And then they rubbed salt in the wounds with Magneto, you know, the holocaust survivor.
AdumbroDeus First, Magneto never joined Hydra. Second, Hydra was established in both the comics AND the MCU to predate the Nazi Party by CENTURIES. Third, Secret Empire was about a fascist corrupting what is supposed to be the ultimate symbol of good and using it for evil.
Loy Turns THANK YOU! Every time someone complains that Cap became a Nazi by (becoming some alternate Cosmic-Cube-created Cap whose origin had him) being a part of Hydra I get confused. I started to believe I was the only one who recognized that the Hydra in the MCU very deliberately sneered at Nazism and openly betrayed then when it turned out their goals were diverging too much--remember the scene where the Red Skull says that? And vaporizes his Nazi "superiors?" Also, I always understood the comic Hydra to have been a global and generic evil organization with several evil subcultures, the Nazi branch being one of them. And for people who actually read Secret Empire, that's very clearly not the branch that Hydra Steve belonged to
Exactly. For seventy-plus years, Hydra has been a pretty clear stand-in for Nazis, created by a team of Jewish creators who wanted to show America fighting the Nazis without giving the Nazis any free publicity by plastering swastikas and brownshirts and iron crosses all over their comic books.
You can't undo that history. You can retcon it out of continuity but you can't undo our memories of it. For the vast majority of their existence, Hydra has been an extraordinary thinly veiled stand-in for Nazis. You can't just say "That's not true anymore... oh and here's Captain America saying Heil Hydra," and expect us to just roll with these changes.
And while, yes, Magento never joined Hydra in the actual story, he did cut a deal with Captain Nazi instead of just murdering him on the spot which, I think, is where most people have a problem with the story. Also, there was a heavily promoted alternate cover that featured Magneto in a Hydra-themed costume, which more than a few people, rightly, took offense at.
It's not like the German National Socialist party was the first thing to ever be racist or bigoted or antisemitic, or fascist or totalitarian either. Saying Hydra as an organization pre-dates the nazi party doesn't at all take away from what it's pretty fucking blatantly supposed to represent and what the character of captain America was literally created in opposition to, you just can't deny this.
Personally, I think that’s the point of the story. Captain America, a symbol and American righteousness and good is corrupted by fascist beliefs to instead promote hatred and totalitarian views by using the cosmic cube to change the past.
Much in the same way, neo nazis and white supremacists have been corrupting the US to believe racist, bigoted and evil views by (among other things) acting like the holocaust never happened and saying hitler only hated Jews in an economic sense and wasn’t actually racist, ie by changing the past to make their narrative seem less overtly evil.
White supremacy and alt right movements are on the rise in the US and I think the correlation that has with the Secret Empire event coming out is often either overlooked or ignored.
Yeah free comic books are one thing but if a guy in tights showed up to entertain the troops, they probably would have really heckled him like in the movie...
The comic books also made functional toilet paper, worth it's weight in gold.
this tells me you don't know anything about the uso. soldiers on the battle front would have probably applauded albert einstien reading a telephone book from Brooklyn and the girls in cap's numbers would have more than shut them up.
@@richardbenjamin8535 I think you nailed that.
if he looked like he was supposed to (big bulky, ready for war) and spoke like he was supposed to (somehow bleak and optimistic at the same time)
nah, soldiers would've ate that up
the thing about the world wars was they drained you, to an extreme degree
even knowing that he was nothing more than a symbol that never shot a rifle in his life would've been a pick me up
for the same reason that someone dressed as bugs bunny cross dressing in the trenches would've been a hugely popular move
it's a reminder of home, that while you're in hell the world is still moving forward and telling you to get off your fat muddy ass and fight so you can get back home
soldiers NOW are more likely to heckle, specifically because they're not drained to an extent where sending them a copy of the electric bill actually acts as a pick me up
@@haydentravis3348 How does it feel to be a prophet?
Terrific video, I just wanted to mention one small thing. I get why people don't like that Hydra is given blame for everything that's gone wrong since World War II, but SHIELD representing the American political-military-intelligence structure and Hydra representing fascism means that this particular part of the plot makes for some damned fine allegory. We're so busy looking outward to those oversimplified Allies vs. Axis narrative that we miss the fact that fascism is growing inside of our own structures here at home. Despite the fact that what Hydra has done has been horrifying, with wars between satellite states in the Cold War, the Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, the US becoming the world's greatest arms manufacturer, our military becoming a pawn to secure resources and oust regimes we don't like, all while consent is manufactured here at home.... it's something we allowed to happen because we were focused externally instead of internally.
From my understanding, which perhaps I'm alone in, Hydra (fascism) inside of SHIELD (American politics/intelligence/military), required that when Captain America becomes unfrozen (our own sense of patriotic or simply moral vigilance being reawakened), he focuses not on false external threats (Middle Eastern terror or Chinese economic dominance, as examples), but actually focus on how his best friend has been turned into an amoral tool (the use of the American military and intelligence services for things like wars of aggression, wars over resources, regime change, etc.) and the institutions which have been infected by the same underlying force as our enemies of old (nationalism, xenophobia, racism and white supremacy, the politics of fear, warmongering, reactionary populism, corruption, etc.). While it's simplified for the movie, certainly, this is still a pretty amazing allegorical framing of how it's patriotic to stand against your own national institutions because they are just as susceptible to fascism as our supposed enemies.
Honestly, this was my favorite part of an already amazing movie.
If I ever meet anyone named Will Schneider, I'm buying the dude a beer, just on the off-chance it's you.
Exactly....Hydra stands for a specific mind-set, a mind-set which can easily corrupt an organisation which was originally formed with the goal to protect. It couldn't be more poignant...that the movie was released around the same time the NSA affair became a thing made it even more current. And then you have Civil War, with its whole "an empire which is toppling from within" theme, and a villain which takes apart a powerful rival by releasing the right information at the right time. (At this point I am kind of afraid what will happen in Infinity war).
Are you implying that Infinity War will be the Avengers narrowly beating Thanos due to Russian interference even though technically Thanos won? I guess we'll have to stay tuned.
This is why I think "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" is the best Marvel movie by a mile.
"Iron Man 3" actually has some of the same subversion to it (in the way the truly terrifying foreign terrorist threat turns out to be a comical fake covering up something more homegrown and venal), but it's a sidelight, not the main focus of the movie.
I would agree with that Matt, if they hadn't utterly messed up what has to be one of the best written short runs in any comic (ie, Warren Ellis's six issue Extremis story) They had no need to use Extremis, any Mcguffin would have done for that part of the film's plot.
I personally loved the theme of soldiers vs spies in TWS. Steve, Bucky, & Sam are former soldiers living in the modern world of spies where compartmentalization is the foundation of national security (Natasha, Fury, Agent 13, Rumlow, Pierce, etc... are all either hiding a secret or lying), which Steve openly detests. That is until he's forced to honor a dying man's warning to not trust anyone by hiding evidence and mustering up the best lie he could: "I don't know". Which both Natasha and Pierce easily pick up on, further cementing that such a method just doesn't suit him. Hence, Steve decides to simply tell the truth that he can't reveal what he knows, leading Pierce to turn him into a fugitive and Natasha to show him the ways of a spy in order to stay one step ahead of SHIELD. Even though her methods prove to be more effective than his in the modern world, he still questions how she could live such a dishonest life. Especially since the only person they can trust who's not under SHIELD's radar is a former pararescueman, and another acquaintance of Steve's that they could've trusted turns out to be unwillingly under Pierce's control. Ultimately, the turning point of their predicament comes not through the ways of a spy but by Steve using something that spies can never have: integrity. After breaking into SHIELD, he confidently gets on a mic and tells this far-fetched story of a supposedly defunct Nazi organization infiltrating the agency for the past several decades. With this claim, he gives the agents an ultimatum on which side to believe: Captain America's words or each other's. While the modern world has made way for better alternatives to sacrificing soldiers on the battlefield, Cap proves that some traditional ways are best not forgotten. For no other Avenger could've turned the tide twice w/ just his truthful words.
Great video! just wanna drop in my few cents on the discussion
1) RE: Wouldn't Steve Rogers Be Racist? Brooklyn boy Steve Rogers is a retcon, he's originally from the Lower East Side like one of his creators Jack Kirby. LES in the 20s-30s was poor, working class immigrants & multi cultural with one of the largest Jewish communities. It was associated with leftist politics like anarchism, socialism& communism during the 20s & also had an active gay community (like at webster hall). Community wasn't harmonious but being exposed to diversity itself influenced Kirby & his works and it makes sense Steve Rogers would be more tolerant than most (but i guess not far fetched with use of outdated language & other benign acts of ignorance... he was called out in the comics by his childhood best friend Arnie Roth, when Steve tried centering the pain of the gay community's AIDS epidemic & Arnies personal loss of husband to be about how Steve too, was sad.... or when Steve was lauding the founding fathers in front of Sam Wilson & Sam called him out on the fact the founding fathers were slave owners, & steve tried with the "yea but still... great guys" lol)
2) Earths Mightiest Hero is a great cartoon & the only thing it really does to try tie into the movies is giving Tony Stark...gold?? eyes?? which closer to MCU's brown rather than 616 blue?? its a great digest version of most of the important comics canon into the 2000s era (Avengers Assemble is MCU cartoon but honestly it gives me more joy than MCU & fulfills some post-2012 Avengers hopes & dreams so i got a soft spot for it)
3) Civil war was a mess but it had really good iron man tie-ins that honestly... make a lot of the tony bad writing more palatable (Civil war: frontline, Iron man #13 & #14 that ties into CW, Casualties of War, The Confession, couple of other tie in issues involving Illuminati, Reed, where its pretty much stated that Tony's literally taking the best possible course of action & he was right etc etc.) Plus Tony's arc that follows through CW & post-cap assassination is really great. Steves bad writing pretty much hinges on the audience being told he's virtuous so he must be right... the event is a good read for the emotional aspect between Steve & Tony & their longtime friendship being tested but still rife with OOCness at critical junctures to induce the continuous drama & tie in reading is mandatory if you don't wanna be bombarded by millar's flimsy writing.
4) Others pointed it out already, but... Cap was created not purely for USA military propaganda but rather by 2 jewish men highlighting the evils of Nazi Germany & rallying people to action in a time where American population didn't really wanna get involved in the fight, and using a man who looks like Steve was to sell the idea (plus Steve not being a tale of "frankenstein's monster" but rather a golem, a Jewish folk tale creature designed to protect or avenge the Jewish community from anti-semitism but also sometimes told as a cautionary tale of life becoming too powerful & going awry) undeniably Cap's patriotic mean theres complicated symbolism & intentional & unintentional propaganda about USA military & country itself with bonus of this character becoming a marketable franchise under disny but thats another can of worms
This was such a great and thoughtful reply! I'm Jewish and never thought about that angle before. I love the idea that Cap is a sort of Golem; the traditional, Jewish folklore's version of a superhero of sorts. Such a cool take!
"Everyone is completely out of character to make the whole 'Civil War' premise work, and it's terrible."
THANK YOU!
Joshua Hogberg exactly. It wasn't a forced conflict between badly written characters, but about reasonable people who come to diametrically opposed but understandable positions on the Sokovia Accords based on their experiences in the past .
People talk about how horrible Tony was in the comic, but a whole bunch of characters came off looking like tools or idiots or both. The only major player that I felt came off ok was Spider-Man.
Jay Elmore this is what I've been saying for years. Maria hill was an idiot for her handling of the whole matter. Cap was a dick to tony in what should have been a moment of goodwill, plus he's defending a position that is indefensible if examined too closely. Tony was a fascist. Reed was completely amoral. The X-men's stance of "you didn't help us during Mutant Registration, so we won't help you with 'your issue'" makes no sense. (Psst- *you guys are superheroes too*). Only Spider-Man comes off okay, who is pro reg until Tony goes way too far. He supports the accountability that comes with registration, but not the draconian means with which it is enforced.
The Civil War and its Mark Millar awful was when I just gave up collecting comics. I figured out afterwards I used to drop about $500 a year on them things, but they were fun to get ripped on bong hits and just read a big 'ol stack of them
Jay Elmore I agree that a lot of characters weren't their normal selves in some respects, but I don't think they were that out there to be honest. A lot of these character progressions could have been fairly easily justified if the main event series spent more time on character development instead of being all plot and leaving the character development to the gazillion tie-ins (a lot of which did a pretty solid job of exploring character actions and motivations, especially for Captain America, Iron-man, Spider-man and the Fantastic Four, but especially Reed Richards). The story itself was great in my opinion, it was just poorly fleshed out in the main Civil War series because Mark Millar... That said, the movie did a much better job working as a story in execution with much more fleshed out characters than the event comic itself.
+TheEverythingGeek aka Hawk Flame Indefensible if examined too closely? Because he opposes registration? That seems a bit.. biased. Especially since superheroes have made pretty good arguments why their identities should be a secret for a long time, and since more government regulation is a hotly debated political topic. If that's not what you're talking about, okay, but to me Tony's side was indefensible. I'm not going to say for certain it was, but I'm bringing it up to point out that there are valid disagreements with what you've said. At the very least, it's defensible even if you disagree.
Good, informative video. I think it's also important to talk about the context he was created in - he was created by two Jewish first-gen immigrants during the rise of Hitler, and his early politics (i.e. punching Hitler) were also a power fantasy from two of an oppressed group of people that was being killed and tortured in mass numbers.
5:30: "He skips out Vietnam entirely"
Of course he does. CA is the american 'ideal', the shield defending the world, the american Eagle. Everything good and great about the USA.
Vietnam was the exact opposite. That stain on america, that war they lost because they were the bad guys and the public knew it. that time they were a hammer and stole beating down the little guy instead of a shield.
The captain america of Vietnam is called The Punisher. He's the viet Vet in mind, body, soul and action.
Vietnam represents a long struggle for independence marred by internal warfare between communists and capitalists constantly battered down by racist outside powers showing up and shooting everything that moved. It started with the Japanese, then the French, then the Communist Bloc, then the Americans, who eventually left and watched from the other side of the world as south Vietnam was swallowed by totalitarianism.
Your view of the Vietnam War is grossly anachronistic.
The idea that we were the 'bad guys' implies that the Vietcong and the NVA were 'the good guys', a laughable notion.
At worst, our forces were one side of a grey coin, together with Russia.
@@dashiellgillingham4579 South Vietnam was already totalitarian, it was a theocratic military junta for much of its existence.
+Sheeid Mahfagga That requires a new definition of totalitarianism. If people are free to walk from city to city, criticizing the regime, it is not totalitarian. As far as I am aware, that does not describe south Vietnam in the timeframe where it was an American ally.
America has been described as the nation that,"has never lost a war-and tied three."
That curly hair thing is really working for her, she looks fine as hell in this episode.
My mental canon for MCU Steve (and all the incredibly awkward things he doesn't accidentally say) is that once Shield admitted he was in the 21st century, they basically made him take a whole bunch of classes in "how not to act like an ass in he future" before some agent shanked him. (Also, I'm pretty sure the Howlies being integrated was supposed to be atypical. I guess the SSR... an international organization.... had very different rules from the U.S. army.)
I like it. Close in on Steve, walking down a hallway flanked by Fury and Coulson, but conspicuously deferring to the latter only. Coulson: "Not sure. You'd have to ask the guy in charge." Steve: "Who's that?"Coulson, gestures to Fury: "Him." Steve, turning to Fury, slightly incredulous: "You?"Fury: "Something wrong with that?" Steve: "No! It's just... well, you're a negro." The audible hiss of Coulson sucking in a breath whilst cringing. Fury levels a withering stare on Steve first, then Coulson.Coulson: "Diversity training. On it." I mean... I like the different universe different rules reasoning more, but this was fun. Took a lot of restraint not to have Fury tell Coulson to collect his super soldier.
I'd say such a situation is likely, but something to note about Steve is that the reason he was picked for the Super solider experiment was how philosophically antithetical he was to the very regime he would be fighting.
If Cap made a comment about this I'd imagine it would be in line of "oh finally got to this point of sanity huh?" rather than a comment mired in the racism of low expectations.
Mr.13 Yup. Steve Rogers hates bullies. To him, racism, sexism, homophobia, they are lol just forms of bullying.
Gilli Weed - This sounds incredibly reasonable.
Lillian B: That makes a lot of sense really. It's not really something interesting enough to have featured in a film, but you could totally imagine him having a few days of 'society training'.
As far as I'm concerned, Winter Soldier is the pinnacle of the Marvel films.
Certainly within the MCU.
And it is also the best James Bond movie not starring James Bond.
I still think that Avengers, Iron Man 1, and GOTG are the best Marvel movies, but Winter Soldier is awesome.
I'm with Lindsay on that one - the story falls apart in the second half of 'Winter Soldier'. Starting with the Hydra reveal. "It's lame. It's extremely lame. The word is lame".
Completely agree
I don't "hate" the hydra twist, but the narrative would be much, MUCH more poignant and stronger in theme if there was no hydra and Steve was advocating free thinking and questioning authority because the regular ole government had tons of problems, because they do. I think the moral still comes across, but it would have been so much more of a statement to not have a secret society pulling a bunch of hidden strings.
I kind of interpreted the lack of actual nazis in the first captain america movie as a creative choice used to get around having swastikas in the movie. Like, I read Hydra as a fictional gestapo, like a unit within the German military machine. But maybe that was just me being hopeful?
Good point, the film was shown to international audiences. Both the UK and Germany are big markets outside the US. Showing that symbol is not allowed in Germany and in the UK it is problematic
@@Stettafire not entirely true, in context of art or documentation it's allowed in Germany. Therefore they are to be seen in movies like raiders of the lost ark... but not in the video game cause games aren't considered art there :D
iirc it was described as hitler’s science division in the film?
Not to mention that Hydra still definitely are Nazis. They just severed ties with the ACTUAL Nazis purely on the basis that the Third Reich was such an inefficient and self-defeating regime that the Red Skull figured they would hold them back.
@@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick Yeah, I've always interpreted them as the Nazis so Nazi even the Nazis couldn't keep up. Not as anything separate from or other than real Nazis.
>earth mighties heroes, also unremarkable.
Objection!
Yeah I was calling blasphemy when she said that.
Easily the
best Marvel animated series
@@br0wneyedsusan Spectacular Spider-Man >
Parker Knight equally good
@Alison Wells she showed the exact title and year on screen.
the avengers: earth's mightiest heroes
2010
"As long as Mark Millar isn't writing."
Oh, Lindsay. If only you could have foreseen Nick Spencer.
Nick Spencer's Cap run was a commentary about how fascism can infiltrate America by co-opting patriotism. Rather timely, considering the times we live in, like many Cap stories.
Loy Turns he'd have a point if fascism has actually infiltrated the country by co-opting patriotism, which it hasn't... I don't care if you like the president or not, It really doesn't matter, but he's pretty clearly neither a fascist or a generic dictator in general, especjally given that he's largely shrinking the size and power of government and the executive branch, the exact opposite things a dictator would actually do, and due to the fact he's a straight up capitalist (and admittedly somewhat of a protectionist) and not a national socialist. He's also never threatened to genocide people or throw them in concentration camps (not even FDR could say hevdidnt do that). Half of his immediate family is also either Jewish by birth or practice, not to mention his wife is eastern European and in pretty sure from a part of Europe that acthal fascists seriously screwed up (until the commies came and screwed the place up even worse somehow). As far as the so called "Alt-right" is concerned (even though they have little to nothing in common with actual right wing ideas), there have been neo-Nazis in this country for generations and they're not really growing either. They might just seem that way because the media has only now really shone a spotlight on them in idiotic attempts to call them his core support vase (even though they're all oretty torn on the guy because they believed the media lie tjat he was an ethnonationalists and really just a civic nationalist, whom the Alt-right generally hate). Nick Spencer is a good writer for the most part, but his take on social and polotical commentary just doesn't ring true to the reality of the situation, or to anyone outside of a really narrow ideological perspective at the very least. It's also deliberately divisive and toxic in the way it treats its readers and characters. The concept of Hydra Cap is actually pretty cool in my opinion and if only it were framed differently, it could have been a great story. In fact it has all of the ingredients of a potentially great story. The problem is that Spencer not only doesn't really love or care about the character or for the idea of the "American ideal" that Cap is supposed to represent that Spencer's frame of reference just comes off like the delusional ravings of a guy disconnected from the world outside of his echo chamber...
Tyler Worsham Yeah, President Putin-Pawn’s action have had actual experts on authoritarian governments raising alarm bells, what with his endless whining about the press and his recent demand for a big North Korea-style military parade, and his supporters’ cult-level devotion to him.
You say that Nick Spencer hates Cap because of Secret Empire, I say he is just merely continuing a tradition many writers of Cap have been doing since the character was created: Commenting on the state of America. In the original Secret Empire story of the 1970s, Cap quit being Cap because of his disgust over the level of corruption in the American government at the time (The story was out around the time of Watergate), and now...history is repeating itself, on a bigger scale. The Fat Russia-Loving Orange Administration is corrupt on a level that makes Watergate look positively pleasant. Hate crimes are on the rise. Spencer is just doing now what Englehart did in the 70s.
I always love that particular strain of non-logic. "The President is a hyper nationialistic fascist representing and working on the behalf of the worst part of the people within this nation!" ALSO: "The President is a pawn/puppet/collaborator with a completely different nationalistic leader working on the behalf of that OTHER nation!"
Like, pick one please. You can't have both and be taken seriously at all.
SonofaGlitch it's possible for two seemingly incompatible ideologies to compliment each other.
General Pinochet was a murderous despot who had complete control of his country and was suppressing democracy in Chile who was also put into power by the US who were afraid that the democratically elected president was a communist. One can be a fascist autocrat and a puppet at the same time. Much like one can be a country that cares greatly about freedom while helping to suppress it in other countries. If Russia did in fact interfere with the US election, hey, at least it didn't end with a military coup, unlike in Chile.
This was a tough episode to watch. It was good, very well thought out. I'm just really invested in Steve as this underprivileged, chronically ill kid who becomes the conscience of a nation. It's such a rare thing to see characters who honestly show integrity and courage and kindness unironically in the age of post-apocalyptic grimdark re-imaginings, and I'm really bitter about Steve not being that (and reminders that I've projected most of that onto a character that should realistically be a pretty obnoxious person by modern standards.)
Tim de Visser The fact that he is all that AND an obnoxious person, is why I love Steve Rogers with my whole heart. I love him like I love breathing: not out of enjoyment, but as a necessity to live.
Honestly he generally is all of those things still. Sometimes he gets a bit disillusioned or cynical, but that is usually fixed by the end of that story arch. Also right about when Clint Barton shows up to drag him around to cheer him up which is always great, or some kind of emotional moment with Tony. He holds true to that even more in the non solo series takes like Avengers, or when he shows up in someone else's comic. He can be a bit of an obnoxious dick depending on who write him (*stares in Nick Spencer*) but typically he's still genuinely nice and kind and trying to do what's best, just also having learned how to snark somewhat.
I'm a big fan of Tony Stark, so trust me I know how shitty it is when your fave gets used in a conflict in a way that's either totally out of character or only show from an opposing light by people who don't actually understand them.
hearing that point about the military subsidies for man of steel and transformers is simultaneously a "what?!?!? no way" moment, AND a "wow that explains a lot," moment.
Explains why those films are so terrible
@@Stettafire So effing terrible,
I would love to see an update to this covering the Phase 3 films.
and how they did one based on that awful civil war story line.
Eric ON how?
cassie earle the Civil War movie is WAY better than the comic!
I forgot how cool Lindsay looks in this episode. Talk about style.
I can tell she put effort into this, too. Sure, it's about her appearance, but its the stuff she chose to do. She totally evokes the 1950s patriotic mother motif.
She's just really good at this, and has been since at least Hocus Pocus. It really does add to the content.
1940's, actually. Cap was created in '41.
I assumed it was Agent Carter cosplay...
I'm all Rockabilly man gazin' *wolf whistle
It's a great look for her, its very striking.
I don't know how you can just drop a bomb like Captain America: Werewolf, and then not tell us anything else about 90s Cap.
Yes! Tell us more about 90s crap! :D
"If Steve left the world in 1944, how is he not a huge f*cking racist?"
Yes, racism was more socially accepable then, and people could get away with saying shit that they can't really say now.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE FROM THAT TIME WAS A RACIST. Actively anti-racist people did exist in that time.
Cap hates bullies. Show me a racist that isn't a bully.
That's adressed in the video. Just because something is consider racist now doesn't mean it always was. Just because he wasn't a racist back then doesn't mean he would have full context of what it is consider racist now.
It's like that episode from Star Trek where they take Lincoln into the future. Lincoln isn't racist but he does use the n-word, because for him that's just a word to refer to black people, and he only stops using it when one of the characters explains to him that, in Star Trek's future, the word is outdated and it barely holds any meaning.
@ Well, since I made this comment two years ago, I don't recall what was in the video.
My point was that just because somebody lives in a racist time period, doesn't mean those views are universally accepted, and individuals can think and feel differently than the societal norm of the period they live in. Not whether or not that period is anything like this one.
Earth's mightest heroes is probably one of the best Marvel animated shows
You are definitely giving me Peggy Carter vibes in this vid
The self agrandizing breaks the illusion.
Never a bad vibe.
Methinks she was wishin' and hopin'. "Chris an' Linsey, stiin' inna tree: K-I-S-S-I-N-G-..." Or do kids still sing that?
Ah, Chris Evans, the angel in human form. Perfection.
Man, I am DIGGING Lindsey's retro make-up, glasses and hairdo in this!
Me too
Not everyone is the past was racist... Some people were & adjusted as they aged & society progressed, like Cap may have, but some never had to overcome their prejudice as it didn't exist in the first place.
My grandma was born in 1920 & neither her, her brother nor her sister were racist, homophobic nor sexist. I feel lucky to have be raised by such a progressive family.
Yeah I agree, her assuming everyone back in the day was racist is absurd.
I think it's less that EVERYONE was racist. It's more that the culture of the time being far more racist in the past would influence the way that anybody from that time speaks. For example, my grandmother has been really supportive of my gender transition, but that doesn't mean she had the language tools to communicate about it in the way that the trans community would. She's learning a lot, which is great, but she also has lived through the last five decades and evolved with the times. Steve Rogers didn't live through the shifts in the ways we refer to people of color, so it wouldn't be surprising if he used outdated language, or even had outdated ideas about the roles people of color (and also women, tbh) should and can play in our culture.
Racism doesn't make you an inherently terrible person when we live in a country built on racism. It's embedded in all of us, and it's every individual's job to be aware of it and work on it, especially white people.
@@berniegertje5358 So much love for this comment!
Pretty presumptuous to say that racisim is embed in all of us.
To quote a vine:
“Wouldn’t Capitan America be a huge fcking racist?”
“Excuse me, do you know what he went through before he got the serum? DID YOU SEE HOW SHORT HE WAS?! HE FEELS THEIR PAIN.”
@TheBrabon1 Or someone who would have been a product of their time? I don't know if you noticed but it was pretty fucking racist back then, not in small pockets of the country but everywhereeeee.
Also to the OP, how exactly does he feel their pain? Sure he could grasp what it's like to be shunned/ridiculed to an extent but beyond that? Segregation was a thing, blacks were hated no matter where they went and what they did, forget about just trying to join the army. Which, if Steve hadn't made it could have tried his hand at many, many other things that wouldn't have been so hyper masculine, that people wouldn't give him shit for not fitting an ideal. They didn't hate him, the system wasn't built against him, he didn't have years of history dictating to people how he should be treated.
But cap knew and was close to minorities.
@@shadowboxing7029 Cap was born to Irish immigrants in the 1920's. He might not have faced predjudice on the same level as african americans but I bet he was not oblivious to what it was like.
@@HiNi. As purely as he is portrayed I would think he had to have some awareness about their struggles absolutely. Maybe knowing their pain wasn't meant to convey a deeper more intimate understanding, that's just how I saw it.
@@shadowboxing7029 he was irish. He was a minority
I love that all your Loose Cannon video intros are different. Standard intros have their place, but I love the unique flavor of each intro. Keep it up!
'Nobody's perfect.' 'I beg to differ'
UNDERSTATEMENT
15:33 uh... Cap... the first coffee machine was invented in 1908....
I don’t know the context of the clip, but what if it’s ironic? Like, Captain America is poking fun at the idea that he’d be so out of touch that he gawks at the most benign modern technology.
The One and Only Michael McCormick it is ironic! Tony was making fun of him so cap retaliated by mocking Tony’s mocking.
I like that this doesn't include the shitty Nazi version because it allows me to pretend that's not a thing. Also, damn Lindsay, you rock the 40's look. Well done.
Troy Shostakov I feel like Marvels claiming that America is now Nazi germany which is not only bullshit but offensive. You don't see anyone being literally fucking labelled
They've actually taken steps to distance Hydra from being Nazis, Red Skull still is but he was basically alone. Cap is specifically not meant to be seen as racist or sexist or supremist, but as one that believes fascism is correct and that a world with super humans is too chaotic and dangerous to allow for the freedoms that would make super heros. He's basically reversed his position for Civil War and taken it a step or two further.
It's not even that big of a mess, can someone please read the comic for once so they understand that it's actually well written and a pretty good social commentary on the negatives of fascism?
Strange Hero Do we really need more antifascist social commentary? It's pretty easy to see why fascism is a bad fucking idea.
I honestly think we need to remind everyone why democracy is better
Through antifascist social commentary, you're proving democracy is better. That's... Captain America's whole point.
NO SPACE JAM??! BLASPHEMY!!
Lindsay, you wear that classic look SO WELL. Kudos.
"Most infamous page"
... And then Hydra Cap turned up...
"One-shit-million" is the best new unit of measurement. HANG-GLIDER!
I just discovered your channel.
Holy cow, what a treat.
I will be watching your videos during my lunch breaks for the foreseeable future.
Thank for your wonderful eloquence and insights into these fun and interesting topics.
This is a better breakdown of a comic character than I have ever seen from a comic channel. They always pepper in to much "and he did this badass thing, and omg that badass thing." and end up repeating the same information 20 times in 2 minutes in order to pad out a 10+ minute runtime.
I'm so glad I stumbled across this channel. Thanks for being great, I'm now going to watch every single other video of yours.
Earth Mightiest Heroes was great
I was also caught of guard when she said it tried to relate to the MCU. It had elements but most of it was seeded in the comics
Beat PunchBeef!
Blast HardCheese!
Dirk HardPec!
Lump BeefBroth!
Stump Chunkman!
Butch Deadlift!
Fist Rockbone!
Thick McRunFast!
Slab Squatthrust!
Gristle McThornbody!
Crunch Buttsteak!
Punch Rockgroin!
Fisto McKickshit
It's interesting that Marvel's two most definitely American, patriotic characters (Captain America & War Machine) are at this moment African American.
How
Earth's mightiest heroes is great. It's a slow starter. but seriously great.
You guys are the real heroes
You had me at "future Big McLargeHuge".
Sorry for the necromancy. It's a reference to MST3K's Space Mutiny. Search on youtube for this: "MST3K - Space Mutiny - The many names of David Ryder"
I really like the outfit she went with in this video.
I under stood that reference!
A manchurian wardrobe choice xD
I like EVERY outfit this chic wears, with her big sexy ass!!
I love the Peggy Carter look. It really works for her.
I understood THAT reference.
"If he's from the 40s, why isnt he racist?" lmao. non-racist white men existed, though they were rare. my grandfather is also a WWII vet and very progressive, even by today's standards.
Yeah but your grandfather lived through the years in between the 40s and the 2010s. He changed as the times changed
@@LSRandomHandle even before social justice was a popular thing, my grandfather believed in equality and protecting the rights of minorities. He spent most of his life in South Dakota, where land was taken from the Lakota tribe and turned into cities and towns and even back then he acknowledged the Lakota people's rights and wanted to do whatever he could to fight for better treatment of native Americans. He has been vocal in his community about it for many years, and made history by being one of the only white photographers to shoot for the Lakota tribe. He photographed the 50th reunion of the survivors of the Battle of the Little Bighorn, I believe only one survivor remains to this day. My grandfather was someone who was ahead of his time, he wasn't someone who just went with the flow, and I know there are hundreds of "old white men" just like him who shared similar progressive values before they became the mainstream.
@@Emily-rv4ue while true, he would definitely have to put some effort into updating his vocabulary
Consistently hilarious and on point, you're slowly becoming one of my fav YTers Lindsay.
My headcanon for MCU Steve is that his parents were very political and extremely to the left for the time, and that's why Steve is so chill.
the actual canon is that Steve comes from a family of Irish immigrants so he had to deal with discrimination too.
Steve was a child of poor Irish immigrants (still somewhat of a despised minority at the time) and a fine arts student in New York during the age of The New Deal. Objectively Steve Rogers was what some folks on the Right would consider a limp-wristed city-boy welfare-queen job-stealing immigrant, and demographically it's almost impossible that he wouldn't be considered a screaming 'lefty' in the 1930s. I'd estimate that would still put him left of US-center on plenty of stuff today.
I didn't know that. That's awesome
At the time there was an Extreme Left, you know. _Really_ extreme, with gulags and all.
He would not be chill if he was raised by extremists.
He probably got a crash course on how politics have evolved when he woke up.
It’s very hard to focus on this video when you dismiss the excellent Earth’s Mightiest Heroes as “unremarkable”. That show was awesome
When she said it was unremarkable, my jaw dropped from disbelief. I honestly thought, we must not have watched the same show
This entire video is just panning everything really. Like the First Avenger was bad because they didn't make the Nazis the villains? That would be so stupid. Like what even is that opinion? Or Steve would be racist because he's from the 1940's? Jeeeesus
Tis the nostalgia mate
@@Aaron-kj8dv he would be by modern standards for a while, yes. Linguistic drift alone would cause that
I would love to see a post Endgame update to this video.
I was kinda expecting a flippant remark about Secret Empire but overall I really liked how this video was written and executed so bravo Lindsay!
Yeah no Earth's Mightiest Heroes was amazing
Software Agents TV big fat agree
I was searching for this comment
When she said it was unremarkable, my jaw dropped from disbelief. I honestly thought, we must not have watched the same show
Homelander is the real hero
You should re-upload the videos where you compare The War of the Worlds with Independence Day. I know it was when you were still Nostalgia Chick, but I really liked that one and would really like to see it again but it's disappeared from the internet.
I love watching some of these videos every few months... Love u Linds!! Keep it up
You’re one of my favorite UA-cam personalities :D thank you so much for all your videos!
It's awesome watching how well Lindsay is able to dissect each genre with ease. I really loved the scene where Captain America saves the old ladies purse in Venice Beach. It's so amazingly cheesy and I love Venice.
I've just discovered your channel and really enjoy your videos. I grew up reading Captain America comics in the 60s. He was one of my favorites, along with Thor and Spiderman. I also enjoyed the representation of Captain America in the recent Marvel MCU movies. Perhaps he is unrealistically decent and pure and ethical and kind and full of integrity. But, what's wrong with having someone like that, as an 11 year old boy, to look up to and aspire to be? Looking back, I think I loved his character most precisely because of those qualities.
I want to thank you for knowing about Big McLargehuge. That is possibly one of the most cited mst3k references in my life, and I love that you know the joy/horror/confusion/comic gold/cinema sin/train wreck that is the space mutiny episode. I just never thought I'd hear it from somewhere on the internet. You made my night. Oh and you're brilliant and engaging in general, so that's pretty wonderful too. Keep it up.
Great video. Recently came across your various forays into many fields. Love them all. I think I love you.
EMH is probably the best representation of the characters in any of these non comic mediums. Worth a second watch for sure.
This was probably unintentional but, I thought "It really GUALS me to see my own men call the FRENCH cowards." Is that just me?
Lindsay, I love your videos and this is off topic, but I love your makeup looks and I love your lipstick in this video. More on topic, I love learning from your loose canon videos!
Really like your commentary and I love the period-look you gave yourself for this video. ^_^
Ive just discovered your work and I love it!
Still one of my favourite Lose Canons!
The depth of your analysis is complemented perfectly with your acting skills. The way you talk is natural and believable and your writing has great humor while being dense with relevant information. When I finally find a job I will be ecstatically become one of your patrons. And as a side note I am jealous of your makeup skills.
New subscriber here, going through your videos and enjoying them immensely. It's like binging a television show that rips apart continuity errors, tackles tropes, and tears away the veil of suspended disbelief against the cries of "But it's just a movie!" and the "but it's in the script" hand-waving.
Though... Around 6:50 it totally looks like you're trying to wink but your eyes decided they didn't want to cooperate at all with that plan. I had to rewatch it to see if that's what was going on, or if it was just the glare on your glasses from your lighting obscuring one eye. Definitely the former. But it totally worked with what you were saying 😂
Wasn't Steve only like, 20 when he got frozen? I don't think he'd feel that displaced from other people his age after like 5 - 10 years. He would certainly have less in common with 80 year olds with 60 years of different experiences than him than he would with some 30 year olds that he's had 10 years of recent shared experience with.
Great video, although you almost lost me when you said Earth's Mightiest Heroes was unremarkable. That was my shit back in the day (along with Justice League Unlimited) and imo it still holds up as one of the best animated comic-book TV series to date.
Oh my god! It took me a second but you're totally wearing red white and blue makeup for this look. Sooo good XD
“He shook so many of em out of the trees that they had a name for him: Tree Shaker! I mean...Captain America.”
Down with Mark Miller, down with Nick Spencer, GO CAP PUNCH THE GOVERNMENT
This is still an amazing video but also Space Jam is a national treasure how dare u
Mark Millar is a Scottish national treasure
@Lexington73300 how so? The man has written a lot of the most popular recent comic book stories...
@@chiefgilray Mark Millar is good at coming up with concepts for stories but ruins them with his grim dark writing, IMO
@@PaceFilmsProductions I love his style
2 things. Mark Millar sucks. Like REALLY sucks. However, I'd argue that Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is the exact opposite of unremarkable. Especially when it comes to their portrayal of Cap. Great video though!
It so perfectly captures Cap and Hawkeye (poor movie Clint, soooooo boring) and especially Janet, and it finally succeeded in making Hank Pym interesting. It is what I watch, when I want to watch Avengers.
Yeah I was surprised she called Earth's Mightiest Heroes unremarkeble. Granted I haven't watched it since it aired but I always hear people raving praise to it, saying that it's one of the best modern Marvel cartoons and so on.
I actually was scouring the comments section to see if anyone else recognized her egregious error about Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes
EMH is pretty good, though it does have it's major issues. Like, anatomy trying to imagine a skeleton inside of characters like Cap is a challenge to say the least. The Natasha storyline also wasn't handled super well either. Some voice choices are also pretty questionable. I love that it actually has Jan though, she deserves everything great in the world, and the most tolerable Hank that I've seen, and they did a good job introducing Scott. Jane as a medic is nice to see too, same with Bobbi being badass. Carol's origin was actually pretty spot on and I loved the older Ms Marvel costume even though I love Warbird. Amora is also probably the best I've seen her, and seeing her work with Loki and basically running everything was so good. Jan and Sue getting to bitch about how their boys are the worst gave me life because Hank and Reed and just the worst and don't deserve them. It just makes me sad that even with the more fleshed out cast and a lot more women in it, it still couldn't pass the bechdel test, like, how can you have that many and not have two girls talk without it being about a guy??? Season 2 spends so much time with some of the most badass ladies, Nat Bobbi and Daisy, just hanging out around Fury silently as he figures everything out, which was just so shitty.
How was hank or rees the worst? Also I say both versions of hawkeye can be boring or intresting.
I was trying to watch this video and calmly contemplate the points being raised until: Hang Glider!
Busted out laughing, both times. Wowza, what a perfect combination of wit and information. Thank you once again!!
you're so good at investigating these topics....you've got me addicted :3
and that Big McLarge Huge reference xD
Thank you for explaining 1602. I bought it, I read it and when I was done I felt cheated and stupified. It's comforting to learn I wasn't the only one. Neil Gaiman is normally sure entertainment but not this time.
I lost interest after she said Avengers: Earths Mightiest Heroes was "unremarkable"
"Earths mightiest heros is unremarkable"
How dare you insult my childhood like that
2:49 this statement just gave me an idea for a tattoo. Thank you for that
Captain America steals a care in every movie he is in, including Civil War.
Brilliant, funny and rocking the 1940's look!! Thanks Lindsay!!
Just wanted to say thank you Lindsey your videos are thought provoking and entertaining, your wit is delightful, and I enjoy the low key editing of all your videos (i.e. not spastic and full of bombastic effects. It really puts a focus on your well written essay in each video.
At 19:16 where you talk about Chris Evans' face as having been kissed by the angels. A genuine LOL and a thumbs up.
I’d love for Lindsay to do a video on the government subsidy thing and how it affects the films that get it
An update to this with the whole Hydra-Cap thing would be great.
"Hanglider!" Sooo good.
Coming back to this now that Falcon and the Winter Soldier is in full swing.
Yea and let me tell you something right now walker is not captain America hes a murderer
thanks for your video analysis and recap! "Cap can stop slavery, the naive genocide, and Scientology. "
This video was great but don't agree with your opinion on Winter soldier the allies did actually recruited German scientists after the war so it makes sense for their beliefs and aspects of there society to influence the government and national security community.
Theres a _severe_ lack of Bucky Barnes in this video. I mean, theres a few clips so I _know_ you know about the sexy metal arm.
17:08
that line right there has been repeated by me dozens of times whenever I talk about a character that dies an impermanent death.... as they often do in comics.
I really wish I was more tech savvy and I could make that into a meme. Seriously, Lindsay.... and I know that this is an old video and I doubt you'll ever see this content...but I wish you could at some point harness the amount of power you have over this medium. You're basically the best video essayist out there.... is it inappropriate to call you the Video Essay Goddess?