10 Lakh Per Month Profit - Kaise ? | Stock Market For Beginners

Поділитися
Вставка
  • Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
  • Mobile No: +91 8130 811 911
    Website: www.tradingwit...
    Twitter: / theviveksinghal
    Email: vivek@tradingwithvivek.com
    Linkedin: / theviveksinghal
    #8130811911 #stockmarketforbeginners
    Disclaimer: this is an education video and not a recommendation to buy or sell. Please do your own due diligence or consult your advisor before taking any action based on this video.

КОМЕНТАРІ • 650

  • @yooo1645
    @yooo1645 Рік тому +247

    I am 25 years old. I am in stage 2. My portfolio size is 14L and can invest around 70K monthly. I belong to middle class and worked very hard to achieve this. Hopefully I can earn 12L/month someday❤ Thanks vivek sir.

    • @prashantsingh139
      @prashantsingh139 Рік тому +67

      Neend se uth ja Bhai

    • @yooo1645
      @yooo1645 Рік тому +41

      @@prashantsingh139 sabko apne level pe mt dekho, merchant navy me officer h

    • @nayan37282
      @nayan37282 Рік тому +4

      It's a dream for me. What you do to earn ?

    • @SSFLUTE
      @SSFLUTE Рік тому +3

      ​@@prashantsingh139 😂

    • @madhuyadla2930
      @madhuyadla2930 Рік тому +1

      What r u ding

  • @Berlin-rb8tf
    @Berlin-rb8tf Рік тому +1

    Glad u posted raw video without editing 😊 Got to see ur BTS

  • @abhaymn
    @abhaymn Рік тому

    It's very easy to do such calculations. Even Warren Buffett hasn't consistently made 26% every year.

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому +3

      please check his CAGR in his initial 30 years. You will get amazed

  • @sukhdevsinghkamboj
    @sukhdevsinghkamboj Рік тому +1

    Great video VB

  • @YogendraSingh-yl5mv
    @YogendraSingh-yl5mv Рік тому

    Thank you so much sir 🙏

  • @raviiawasthii
    @raviiawasthii Рік тому

    When to sell any stock

  • @amitabhranjan6932
    @amitabhranjan6932 Рік тому

    Bhai app ka video dekhe ke bad dream bhoot accha ata hi

  • @upenk4769
    @upenk4769 Рік тому

    hello sir, make vod for age 60, we need per month 2 to 3 %. please . we are late by age but not hope

  • @nilimajhakitchen
    @nilimajhakitchen Рік тому

    Sir I’m long term investor but now I want to earn monthly pls guide 🙏

  • @srinivasaraosuravarapu2618
    @srinivasaraosuravarapu2618 Рік тому +20

    Vivek Bhai, You are born for the making us Rich, Hats Off

  • @oliviaralston1
    @oliviaralston1 Рік тому +28

    Keeping this to myself isn't a good idea, I decided to tell everyone so you guys can all benefit from this. People keep talking about Stacy Griffin but I never knew how her software works until she show me, I will forever be grateful for her strategies of making big profits.....

    • @kelseyeadelmarr6109
      @kelseyeadelmarr6109 Рік тому

      The thing about been successful is working toward it and not going the other way round

    • @hamidu_-
      @hamidu_- Рік тому

      You are right. Been thinking of going into gold and cyptocurrency

    • @zoeyswaniawski7306
      @zoeyswaniawski7306 Рік тому

      It's obvious everyone is doing this online Investment

    • @thylda7877
      @thylda7877 Рік тому

      ​@@zoeyswaniawski7306I totally agree with you it has been an eye-opening experience for a lot of people.

    • @kiyotofujita2178
      @kiyotofujita2178 Рік тому

      Talking about been successful. I know I am blessed if not I wouldn't have met someone is as spectacular as Stacy Griffin

  • @akki_k9137
    @akki_k9137 Рік тому +13

    Aap aam logon k liye devta ho sir...
    Bhut sikhne ko mila apke paid video lectures se... Aap agr aise hi sikhate rhe at least next 3 Years tk, fir hm log bhi itne capable ho jayenge ki more than 20% CAGR k liye to sochna hi nhi padega...
    Thanks a lot sir...

  • @amankhare9011
    @amankhare9011 Рік тому +13

    Sir your online classes are gold standard thank you so much for your efforts. That also for free. I am following each and every thing you are teaching you are so inspiring. 🙏🙏

    • @deeptisingh648
      @deeptisingh648 Рік тому

      Kaise krte h sir ki class

    • @amankhare9011
      @amankhare9011 Рік тому

      @@deeptisingh648 online paid class is available on Vivek sir UA-cam channel in playlists free of cost.

    • @deeptisingh648
      @deeptisingh648 Рік тому

      @@amankhare9011 Thank you

  • @kmlpjt
    @kmlpjt 8 місяців тому +1

    6:15 nice joke in the whole video😂

  • @trustbuddha24
    @trustbuddha24 Рік тому +6

    But sir is it easy to get 26% CAGR? Normally its nearly around 15-16%

    • @DrAnilBidua
      @DrAnilBidua Рік тому

      7% per jodo , fd ka wahi rate hai. Baki sab moh maya hai😂

  • @pratz17
    @pratz17 Рік тому +15

    How to get 26% CAGR with practical example? Can you show this sir. Thanks

  • @muralikrishna7483
    @muralikrishna7483 9 місяців тому +6

    Sir apki kripa se 10 lakhs ka investment ko maine 2021 se 2023 takh 1750000banadiya sir , sirf swing trading karke aur vobi sirf apka youtube videos dekh kar thoda apna research karke ye mene hasil kiya sir ji .Thank u sir ji.

  • @notesgurupk8261
    @notesgurupk8261 2 місяці тому +1

    Very Very Thanks Sir 🙏

  • @sashibhusansatapathy990
    @sashibhusansatapathy990 15 днів тому

    Hi Vivek, I noticed that you haven’t yet addressed how one might consistently achieve a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 26% over extended periods, such as 12, 15, or even 20 years. Given the challenges and market fluctuations that investors face, achieving such a high CAGR every year seems highly improbable for most individuals. I would greatly appreciate it if you could share your insights or opinions on how this can be realistically accomplished or if there are any specific strategies or factors that could make this feasible. Thank you.

  • @PiyushKashyap-g8o
    @PiyushKashyap-g8o 3 дні тому

    Piyush Kashyap { 27-September-2024 watching all video of Vivek Sir ( Video No-652 )

  • @sankalprauthan3450
    @sankalprauthan3450 Рік тому +5

    It's a privilege to hear you and and get financial knowledge...... Sir I promise after 10 year same day I will meet you at uttrakhand..... God bless you sir.......

  • @1234569312
    @1234569312 7 місяців тому +1

    Vivek Bhai, is it possible to earn 26% return year on year basis for 15 to 20 years?? Warren Buffet's CAGR is around 22 t0 24%. If possible, kindly revert....

  • @vinodsethi3799
    @vinodsethi3799 Рік тому +6

    Vivek sir without your video my breakfast not done ❤

  • @competitionfighters3429
    @competitionfighters3429 Рік тому +4

    Kaash ye channel 3-4 saal pahle recommend ho jaata

  • @PradipBhadgaonkar
    @PradipBhadgaonkar Місяць тому

    विवेक भाई, करोडो कमाने की बात कर रहे हो, आपने कितना कमाया अबतक, लगता तो नही, सिर्फ एक्सेल शीट दिखा रहे है, अरे भाई ये जो ज्ञान दे रहे हो वो तो सब को मालूम है

  • @AJAY_KUMAR_108
    @AJAY_KUMAR_108 7 місяців тому

    10 लाख पर मंथ कमाने वाला यू ट्यूब कभी नहीं देखेंगे क्योंकि उनके पास इतना समय नहीं समय हम जैसों के पास है जो थोड़ा बहुत कमाता है मिनिमम 50000 से नीचे
    वीडियो हमलोग देखते हैं लेकिन होता अंबानी अडानी के लिए ऐसा क्यों 10 लाख महीना के लिए कितनी करोड़ लगाना होगा जो करोड़ लगा सकता वह अरबों का होगा वह यू ट्यूब देख कर किसी कीमत में निवेश नहीं करेगा।😅
    कई झूठे लोग कहते होंगे की हम लाख महीना लगता हूं 😅

  • @PradipBhadgaonkar
    @PradipBhadgaonkar Місяць тому

    सब चमचे favourable कंमेंट्स दे रहे हे क्या? Actually VDO मे कुछ काम की बात नही है 😰

  • @ashokmundhe1166
    @ashokmundhe1166 4 місяці тому

    pls Vivek Bhai marathi मध्ये video बनवा / Trans lale it

  • @sumitvjtimahajan2209
    @sumitvjtimahajan2209 Рік тому +5

    i love your simplicity and simplest way of teaching!! 💕

  • @Anupkumar-hk1zr
    @Anupkumar-hk1zr Рік тому +1

    I have a better plan than this.
    Invest 5 Crore every month as SIP, and within 3 months you will have 15 Crore in your account. See, now you are rich in just 3 months.
    Jitna faltu gyan aur logic ye video me diya gaya, waisa hi response maine diya. Ab inke followers ko ye example bura lag jaayega.
    Arre bhai, isme kaun sa knowledge hai ki 20-30 saal invest karo to itna paisa ban jaayega. Wo to sabko pata hai. Internet par sabko wo calculator use karna aata hai. Main point to wo hai ki wo 26% kaise banaana hai 20 saal tak consistent?
    Fir to koi bhi kah sakta hai ki 600% every year banao aur 5 saal me itna crore bana lo. Kya faltu logic aur gyan hai bhai.
    Aur motivational gyan to Maheswari chacha se bhi bade bade hain inke

  • @RR-kl5ht
    @RR-kl5ht Рік тому

    6 crore ka portfolio chahiye iske liye😆😆...headline is just a click bait 🤣🤣 if u wanna calculate this at our level ek ya do zero hatake same calculation use karlena, 3 idiots film me dikhaya hai waise 🤣🤣🤣🤣

  • @Amal-wu5ux
    @Amal-wu5ux 17 днів тому

    Sir monthly we cant get trades know?

  • @PANKAAJFSHHAH
    @PANKAAJFSHHAH Рік тому +4

    Learning And Earning Towards The Goal Set By Me...Wish Me Luck Vivekbhai...God Bless U..Sharing Ur Paid Class Videos To My Entire Circle...Everybody Should Benefit From Ur Knowledge Vivekji.

  • @ferozkhan7643
    @ferozkhan7643 Рік тому +1

    Mungerilal ke haseen sapne, talk practical 😮

  • @Abimadav
    @Abimadav Рік тому +2

    Khub bhalo dada.. Ek dm darun...❤ बहुत ही बढ़िया एक दम से सुपर वाला फिर से आपका वीडियो ।।

  • @musicmania2439
    @musicmania2439 2 місяці тому

    Vivek Sir you are great person🎉

  • @lkumar677
    @lkumar677 Рік тому +1

    VIVEK BHAI JISKA SALARY HI 30-35 THOUSAND HO USKA KYA HOGA ...MATLAB MARKET USKE LIYE TO HAI HI NAHI FIR ....KUCH IDEA DIJIYE PLEASE

  • @Mister.Doodler
    @Mister.Doodler Рік тому +1

    Thankyou.
    By investing 30K per month, will the 3% -5% max cap of investment per share willl change every month accordingly too.

  • @prakharjain5582
    @prakharjain5582 Рік тому +3

    As you said, when economy matures, inflation comes down.
    Similarly, I think the markets would also become more efficient. So after 5-6 years, 26% CAGR might not be practical.

    • @Moralboost1
      @Moralboost1 Рік тому +2

      please watch the whole course and then give dialogue

    • @allahnabi78684
      @allahnabi78684 9 місяців тому

      He was talking about you only in the beginning of the video😂😂

  • @ashokchauhan1305
    @ashokchauhan1305 Рік тому +1

    26% and continuously is looking difficult...pls explain how to easily get 26% at portfolio level....10 lac per month possible lag raha hai thanks

  • @puneet2776
    @puneet2776 Рік тому +1

    Vivek bhai 14,15 saal tak 26% ka CAGR Kaha se ayga ye to batao pls

  • @AmazingVibes1000
    @AmazingVibes1000 7 місяців тому

    Bhai mujhe paisa ek ka doh, doh ka char , char ka aat, aat ka sola guna karna hai … a dream like baburao ganpath rao wapte 😢😊

  • @PradipBhadgaonkar
    @PradipBhadgaonkar Місяць тому

    Vivek bhai, kitni bakwas es VDO me kar rahe ho.. Kamki bat batao na😂

  • @aakarshankhatri
    @aakarshankhatri Рік тому +4

    Life is all about attitude..Thank you so much Vivek sir🙂🙏

  • @nithyanandabeskoor4488
    @nithyanandabeskoor4488 7 місяців тому

    But how to get 26% CAGR he did not explain. All assumptions

    • @globalbipro2688
      @globalbipro2688 Місяць тому

      Uske liye hi to videos k classes lena hoga bro

  • @swagatpradhan769
    @swagatpradhan769 Рік тому +6

    You will always be remembered for your honest and helpful nature to save the retailers 🙏

  • @milanchattaraj3836
    @milanchattaraj3836 Рік тому +2

    Sir to see your videos I wake up at 5 o clock.. Daily routine now

  • @kumarutkarsh6418
    @kumarutkarsh6418 Рік тому +1

    Iska toh pata ni mileyga ya ni ...
    Magar 50 lakh ka plot kharid lia na sir toh 14 saal baad uski value kam se kam 10 - 15 crore plus hogi aaram se .. yeh baat sb jante hai 😂😂

  • @surajdewangan4204
    @surajdewangan4204 Рік тому +1

    Meri salary 12k h 😢

  • @amarjeetsingh-vv4xr
    @amarjeetsingh-vv4xr Рік тому +3

    Bhai 26 % apne portfolio pe 16 saal lagatar nikalna is next to impossible

    • @abhiKumar-sg6yz
      @abhiKumar-sg6yz Рік тому +1

      vivek sir 47% bna rhe h last 15 sall se ji

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому +1

      @anarjeet Please go through all the class video to learn how to make 26%

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому +1

      @narendra. Agar video dekhi hoti aapne toh aapka ye sawaal nahi rahta

  • @CookieMonster---
    @CookieMonster--- Рік тому +1

    Vivek bhai ne sheets ko v rough copy jaisa use kar diya 😂

  • @knowledgeaffairs9598
    @knowledgeaffairs9598 7 місяців тому

    Konsa SIP 26% return de rha hai😢

  • @pmskinnal
    @pmskinnal Рік тому +2

    eye opening .video ........greatest video......JAI SRIKRISNA

  • @abhishekdatar
    @abhishekdatar Рік тому +2

    Meri salary hi 30k per month hai. Investment kese karu???

  • @panther1527
    @panther1527 Рік тому +1

    Sir plz make a complete video on Tradingview Tutorial

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому +1

      I will

    • @panther1527
      @panther1527 Рік тому +1

      @@TradingWithVivek Thanks for replying sir, you are a Great teacher with best strategies, I am learning a lot from your Classes 💖💖

  • @pukhraj2580
    @pukhraj2580 Рік тому +2

    Sir g हम तो पॉजिटिव सोच वाले हैं आप का आशीर्वाद इसी तरह प्राप्त होता रहेगा तो 10 लाख नही पर डे लाखो कमाएंगे ❤❤❤❤❤❤

  • @freekytraveller8571
    @freekytraveller8571 4 місяці тому

    LOOKS EASY IN EXCEL

  • @nirmalkar10
    @nirmalkar10 Рік тому +1

    How do I get 26% CAGR every year?
    Please guide me with example

  • @anandradhakrishnan1302
    @anandradhakrishnan1302 7 місяців тому +2

    My wife who left me for her career in the Gulf is making 10-12 lakhs per month..no income tax

    • @shiv_emf
      @shiv_emf Місяць тому

      Yes that’s good but how about expenses like rent etc

  • @yashwinagrawal6862
    @yashwinagrawal6862 Рік тому +2

    sir bad result k bad share upar jata and ache k bad niche kuch companies ka.. iska reason kya hai and kya operator ka role hai isme?

  • @sauvikksarkaar
    @sauvikksarkaar 7 місяців тому

    Apna verified pnl to dikhao

  • @VINODKUMAR-fs8wk
    @VINODKUMAR-fs8wk Рік тому +2

    ❤Bless you, thanks namahshivya,jai hind

  • @yogeshjain2179
    @yogeshjain2179 7 місяців тому

    Me 70 lak rupy invest kerna h

  • @Memo_Ji
    @Memo_Ji Рік тому +2

    But to get 26% is the main problem ,what about that ???

    • @stayfree009
      @stayfree009 Рік тому +1

      Watch the video in 0.25x you will get the answer

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому +1

      Please go through all the class video to learn how to make 26%

  • @vennmathshub
    @vennmathshub Рік тому +2

    thanks bhai will make this happen 😊😅

  • @johnleox1
    @johnleox1 Рік тому +3

    Thanks Vivek.. What a morning session for me.. God Bless You and Your Family.

  • @AllyRodz-g2y
    @AllyRodz-g2y Рік тому +1

    Nice guy 😊 teaches not to greed for money but to learn and invest wisely on his experience and learning

  • @ashishchaudharicool
    @ashishchaudharicool Рік тому +1

    Agar vivek bhai ek average Indian ko crores ka portfolio banane ka sikha rahe hai toh yeh sochiye hamare guruji ka portfolio size kya hoga. Is vichaar se hi dhanya ho gaya. I will start working on given instructions

  • @sarojbarikk6822
    @sarojbarikk6822 Рік тому +2

    Vivek bhai.. Kabhi me ek samay pe udas ho gaya tha k jab ap video banane band kardiye the. Aur aj ap itne consistent video bana rahe ho k ek video koi v repeat frwrd karke dekhta hun toh usme dursra video naya ajata hai. Thanks for your immense contribution to make us financial literate & wealthy

  • @shashisharma6073
    @shashisharma6073 7 місяців тому

    26% cgar kaha milta hai ? Woh to batao

  • @pramodtutorials7961
    @pramodtutorials7961 6 місяців тому

    Sir kewal sochne se 25% nhe mil jata

  • @kotalwaramol
    @kotalwaramol Рік тому +1

    Hello Vivek sir.. Nice video but 26% CAGR for more than 10yr is it possible?

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому

      Please go through all the class video to learn how to make 26%

  • @nandinighosh395
    @nandinighosh395 7 місяців тому

    Bogus

  • @ataapataa
    @ataapataa 6 місяців тому

    Jai Guru Dev

  • @DelhiteBiker
    @DelhiteBiker 8 місяців тому +2

    Vivek bhai main aap ki bahut ijjatt karta hu.. Bus ek request hai aap se.. ham 5 saal k bachche nahi hai, faltu gyan na de kar point to point bataya kariye 🙏

  • @ganpshed5997
    @ganpshed5997 4 місяці тому

    Vivek Bhai, I am 47, I am doing business no job, I cannot save 30k pm, can you tell me how can be met Target

  • @saibaldas9626
    @saibaldas9626 Рік тому +1

    Vivek vai you have a great Vivek (in Bengali Vivek means heart)

  • @PreetiYouTube1111
    @PreetiYouTube1111 Рік тому

    Mungeri laal ke haseen sapne.

  • @sizzlingvideos7879
    @sizzlingvideos7879 Рік тому +1

    Sir atleast tell in this video, how to get 26% CAGR

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому

      Please watch the complete video. Already told

    • @sizzlingvideos7879
      @sizzlingvideos7879 Рік тому

      ​@@TradingWithVivekSorry Vivek Bhai. Thank you very much for this video. Need more videos like this ❤.

  • @ab6337
    @ab6337 Рік тому

    Easy to show anything on excel. You are talking only about returns and nothing on risk. Consistently 26 percent can help you beat Rakesh jhunjhunwaala in long term. This felt stupid.

  • @akhaleefa
    @akhaleefa Місяць тому

    Thanks for your efforts. You are one of the best youtuber for lucky 150crore people. Please continue doubling your efforts. Indians will become very rich and make india a most developed nation if govts at all levels think how to make every Indian stand strongly on his/her firm feet. India has a very bright future and on the way to regain its past glory. The best form of govt is democracy and we have the most successful democracy in the world. Unity, peace, progress, prosperity go hand in hand. If i love my country, it must love all its people and think how I can help myself and my people to my best of abilities. I think you have that thought in you abundantly. Regards.

  • @Harshsingh-mm5ky
    @Harshsingh-mm5ky Рік тому +2

    Vivek sir itne paise bne na bne par ek ummid or Dil ko khusi to mil hi jati h....tnq👏

  • @rajendrajitpura6745
    @rajendrajitpura6745 Рік тому +2

    Very nice..❤. Thanks

  • @bipinbihari-pi5co
    @bipinbihari-pi5co Рік тому

    Very impractical. Neither 26%,nor 50 lakhs base money possible for a middle class.

  • @chandradutta1714
    @chandradutta1714 Рік тому +1

    Very nicely explained
    I will definitely watch ur videos to get 24 crores.I have recently started investing in stocks market and my portfolio is profitable as on date I was really very negative earlier but now i m very confident to achieve my expected target
    Thnx n regards

  • @akhaleefa
    @akhaleefa Місяць тому

    I can do attitude, dreaming to make India no.1 meaning determined to do your best in all walks of life. We must always think what I can do for others after I am aware of principle of success in life. You are doing a great job particularly after putting your paid courses into free access. Thanks a lot. India needs a lots of people like you who think good for every one. Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam meaning world is a family is a great Indian concept which is to be adopted by the whole world for unity and peace.

  • @sachinmishra8308
    @sachinmishra8308 5 місяців тому

    Vivek ji Jindabad

  • @satpalsharma8620
    @satpalsharma8620 Рік тому +1

    जिसके पास सिर्फ पचास हजार ही हो वह क्या और कैसे करे विवेक सिर कृपया इस बारे में कुछ अपने विचार सांझा करें ।

    • @stayfree009
      @stayfree009 Рік тому

      Teach to students in your locality 🙏

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому +1

      Start investing. Work hard. Earn more

    • @AmanpreetSingh-mm9ih
      @AmanpreetSingh-mm9ih Рік тому

      Hi, Maine 50 hjar se shuru Kia tha and 2 years pehle classes li thi. Today my portfolio is of approx 10 lakh and cagr currently 22 percent. As market will go up it will up to 40 percent. Don't loose hope.

  • @muzafermir2738
    @muzafermir2738 8 місяців тому

    Zeel pe video banav sir

  • @user-dk9yj5dd8i
    @user-dk9yj5dd8i Рік тому +2

    Thanks sir ji 🙏

  • @krishnashaw7556
    @krishnashaw7556 Рік тому +2

    Excellent sir,

  • @abhishekupadhyay2496
    @abhishekupadhyay2496 Рік тому +1

    Hello sir. Thanks for making us believe that we can become rich one day. 🙏

  • @RK-is2mx
    @RK-is2mx 7 місяців тому

    I am almost 40 , husband left no kid m back to my family and living with my brother- and sis in law - disturbing their life ,my life has come down to zero monetary and otherwise also, so now can i do all this at this age , will i be able to manage ??

  • @sanjibde6808
    @sanjibde6808 Рік тому +8

    Thanks Vivekji for your valuable contribution in letting this community grow and improve our knowing and confidence with your videos. Thanks a lot.

  • @vinodsantavar
    @vinodsantavar 7 місяців тому

    Galthi se😂

  • @DAYTrader_Sahib
    @DAYTrader_Sahib 6 місяців тому

    Sorry lacher bekarr hai ...first include benifit of oeople

  • @techcloud3637
    @techcloud3637 Рік тому +1

    Aajao sab milke startup krte hai 😃

  • @SKYPEAKHIMALAYAS
    @SKYPEAKHIMALAYAS Рік тому +1

    Sir please can you make a details video on SIP sir please.....🙏

  • @alpeshgandhi2404
    @alpeshgandhi2404 Рік тому

    Jay shree Krishna guruji
    I request to make video for finding stocks on chartink base on rob booker & 20,50,200 dma indicator.

  • @shuddodhansuryavanshi7801
    @shuddodhansuryavanshi7801 Рік тому

    Which stock gave 25% cagr

    • @TradingWithVivek
      @TradingWithVivek  Рік тому

      Please start watching all my youtube videos; you will come to know. need to do some hard work to get this return