She really wasn't... Her point can be made like this: "We have a problem about falling voter participation, lets make it harder for people to vote (take a test), so that the population with the vote shrinks, making out number of voter participation looks better." Her point of linking payments for the politicians, to what they do while in office, is interesting... But whom is setting those standarts? Is it the politicians (on a year to year standart)? Or is she talking about making an amendment, and in that case what are the variables? She mentions a few, but are those the only ones, or are there needs for more? More to the point, what she is actually saying, is that the politicians needs "incentives" to do the right things... That is a real problem, because she didn't follow up and said that money in politics should go away, so in her system, you would still have the legal bribes that there are now...
Most of the people voted into office are pretty smart (you might not like them, but that doesn't mean they are not smart)... That didn't give you that great an outcome! And there is nothing simple of "make offices and the whole political process more transparent and educate people"... The concept might be, but it is damn hard to do any of the things you said.
I think she (this video in general) brought up some really valid concerns (problems) with the current democratic systems in the US and the rest of the world. The 4-year election process disables all reforms that are detrimental in the short-term, but necessary in the long-term. The one man-one vote approach is also showing it's downsides (Trump and like in the rest of the world are its clear symptom). We can all plainly see that not all people deserve the same number of votes. The problem with both of these issues is finding a solution for them. Removing elections makes politician unaccountable, whilst objective criteria for determining how many votes certain people get are difficult/impossible to find. Better education, as mentioned, is a solution, but it again depends on what kind of education people/their elected representatives think is better. I'd say that the Trump administration has a completely different idea of better education than we do.
Sure valid concerns where brought up! I am not questioning that... I am questioning why we should say that she is great, when most of her solutions are completely detrimental to the people. Also, most of what she said is not solutions! "The one man-one vote approach is also showing it's downsides"... It might be other places... But not in the US, in the case of Trump, because that was not what happened, he won on the electoral college, not personal votes, if "one man-one vote" had been the case Clinton would be the president right now. "We can all plainly see that not all people deserve the same number of votes". Really? Why do you want an even heavier top-down process in the US? "I'd say that the Trump administration has a completely different idea of better education than we do." I agree entirely, and that is why your suggestion of limiting votes/giving more votes to "certain" people, is madness! Two of the big problems in the US (when it comes to voting) is lack of representation (money in politics, two party system ect.) and the systems failure to do their job (the fake news, politics in the court systems ect.). None of these problems are addressed by making a class-system in voting, or paying politicians more, for doing what they allegedly were voted in for, to begin with.
'''''' We can all plainly see that not all people deserve the same number of votes.''''''''...................God forbid everyone be equal.............we wouldn't want that
Alright now, this woman has it! Educated, Poised, Knowledgeable, Informative, oh yeah she's one of us. 💯 I am ordering your 📑 now. Thanks Bill, long time listener and fan. FYI, i saw them eyes 😉.
Thank You In Advanced well wait shes not right about everything. shes right about donations and lobbyists but if people choose not to vote than they cant complain
jack johnson They can. It's myopic to think that one must vote especially when the options are as dire as they were in 2016. Boycotting is also a strategy.
Agreed! I realize that there are time restraints in broadcast TV, but at least let the woman finish a sentence! Geez. I found her to be extremely interesting and on topic. I MUST read her book!
Dambiso Moyo is one of the most underrated African intellectuals imo. I read her first book “Dead Aid” as a freshman in college a decade ago and have witnessed the impact it has had on the world. As an African from one of largest aid recipients on the continent, South Sudan🇸🇸, I can attest to the destructive, counterproductive nature of the foreign aid regime. She first made an argument for an authoritarian leadership as the most effective form of government for developing countries in that book. While I had reservations on the subject initially, I have come to see, albeit reluctantly, the wisdom of that statement. That’s why China the rules. Democracy, especially in developing countries, attracts the worst kinds of people at the most pivotal periods of those country’s development.
In Australia if you don't vote. At 18 you are registered , but you don't vote ,you get fined. Why? because living in a Country were you can vote. Means you are Lucky.
Robinsss ... did you ever get any education. Are you able to speak in complete sentences and convey full ideas. Who are you talking to? Who is we? How is what not true? Do you ever bother to think about what it is you are trying to say or you just blurt without any idea all the time?
"Linking their pay to longer term outcomes." True That. If you make it more lucrative to walk upright than to root in the gutter, Maybe this place'll stop smelling like a pig sty.
And whom is setting those standarts (in most cases it would end up being the politicians)? Her argument is novel, but her solution is to counter bribes with... Bribes (essentially)... The trouble in the US is not the lack of money, it is the amount of money in politics (among others), and her solution is more money.
"impervious"... No. But she doesn't adresse the problem, she argues that the politicians would do better, if they get payed more... However that is not really the problem in US politics, that problem is more with promises of future pays that are quit a lot larger.
Very few elected officials care one whit about the amount of their government paycheck. They are in it for the big payouts from corporations and special interests. It's the dark money that needs to be stopped.
I think lawmaker salaries ought to mirror teacher salaries. Both are there to do good for our young. Teachers are under quite a bit of scrutiny, and I think the ones who are also looking out for their futures should be right there under the microscope politics has put teachers under. Actually, the EXACT SAME microscope they imposed should be used. I hope they like it!
@robinsss her point was that as an immigrant she had to take a civics test to become a citizen (and consequently be able to vote). Any US born might get through life never having to assert their aptitude for citizenship. So it would not be too far-fetched to be in a system where when people come of age and truly become citizens (usually around the age of 18) that they too would need to take said test to assert their aptitude instead of it being just given. See it like a drivers licence, but for democracy. Obviously this is a very simplified version of a discussion that needs a lot of depth and many systems, like full access to education to all, would need to be in place to guaranty no one gets excluded etc. but its not too bad of an idea if you truly think about it.
Actually it was NOT a back-handed not left handed compliment. It was an actual compliment. Watch Fox news you'll see many the educated person. Yet despite that education they deny climate change. Where Oxford is indeed prestigious, I have seen Harvard grads on Fox come across clueless.
This woman is fucking BRILLIANT. Why isn't she more prominent? Americans should be required to listen to her for 5 minutes a day until we collectively decide to pull our heads out of our asses.
Millennials that I know, and I worked in a School so I know a lot, they look to the Nordic Economic System. A Great Nation has a Healthy, Well-Educated Populace.
As a mother of 5 and my youngest a millennial, would like to say Millenials on the whole are absolutely brilliant. My son's classmates and friends are naturally wise. They are investigative and concerned. They seem to understand the true essence that religion is trying to teach without the religious superstition and baggage. And they don't have a pretext for backing down to who poses as authority- very respectful but they take no prisoners. The lot of them love Bernie Sanders. I think that is outstanding. Peace
Vee K. Umm what are u using to back up such high praise? im a "millenial" myself and most of my peers are loudmouth dags who dont understand the first thing about working. where do u see such high minded thinking going on exactly? oh bernie sanders ur kidding I hope? so let's make everything free?
Hey Jack. We spend some of the year in Northern India and have many friends there. I have a working ranch in Austin and another near Santa Fe. My husband travels for work and we have gone along al over Europe and have many friends there. We are residents of Boulder, Colorado. I am native to Boulder and my husband is from Spain. We have travelled a lot from Ecuador to Pakistan and in 42 states. Pretty much everywhere there are wise people.
As an immigrant I was also asked to show my engagement and knowledge before getting the right to vote, I never minded it but I dont think USA born Americans would like that.
Her solutions are....odd. I'd say that what is needed is to end the "Citizens United" decision that legalized bribery via making bribes into "speech". Another good idea is to end gerrymandering, so that politicians don't get to pick their voters, when it is the voters who should be picking politicians. Gerrymandering turns many states into de facto one-party states, which in turn means that the rich only need to corrupt the leaders of that one party.
Agreed... Her solutions are actually really bad. If the US followed her ideas, there would be a class system (more than is already the case) of voters, and politicians that got payed more... How is that better again?
+Michael Matherne I believe there is precisely a zero chance reps would ever willingly vote to end gerrymandering, they'd cease to be a major party by the following elections
People don't participate because both parties are literally owned by the same corporations, like Goldman Sachs, AT&T, Bank of America, Microsoft, Lockheed Martin etc... They give to both parties, so they win either way, something Bill will never ever address, despite it being the root of the problem. #corptocracy
It's all for a republican agenda. Democrats are paid by the same donors but at about 20% of the amount paid to Republicans. Democrats are paid to be weak and allow the republican agenda. Bernie or Bust
Parties are great before they put parties above people. I have to agree with you that corporations own our political system but does not always the case. In theory, political parties are excellent but sucks in practice because of everyone’s personal agenda and profit motives.
Actually he does, he knows money rules the system which is why he gave Obama that one million. Maher tends to be more pragmatic, he doesn't think that it is easily possible to put in place a progressive party.
I don't think pay linked to long term outcomes will help. Politicians worry about re election, and most have highly lucrative jobs in the private sector after their tenure is up. Lot of favors and gladhanding going on. No amount of pay could keep them honest when millions of dollars in bribe money are at stake.
Ken Havens Right. It's the payouts from corporations and special interests that corrupt the system. Nobody goes into politics for the government paycheck.
Can he ever stop interrupting women? So frustrating when he gets an interesting female on to talk about something they've studied closely and he cuts in constantly.
Absolutely true about weighted voting. If the only things you know about your political candidate are the "build the wall" and "drain the swamp" chants, your vote shouldn't be worth very much...
Take away the money involved in elections, then require most politicians to have some form of qualifications they can bring to the table. I say *most* to not turn away those who have the willpower and good ideas which are supported by the people, but not necessarily have the right education or qualifications. By taking away the money from the elections, you help on the way to ensure that everyone gets an equal chance. Money have a tendency to get in the way of real progress. Either it be greed or just that it's not financially beneficial. Weighted voting is a bad idea because you'd essentially have to subjectively measure people. A poll tax(if I heard that right), seems like a good idea. It'd force people to actually read up on the elections and ensure that votes aren't just bought because they like a certain candidate based on shallow characteristics. It'd essentially rinse out the people who do society a disfavor by voting. If I for example had to vote on which kind of beer tastes best out of five brands, it would kind of be expected of me that I've tried those five brands. Blind voting is generally not good for societies. That's how you get idiots elected for office. Of course it's not foolproof, but at least it'd be a step in the right direction. It's not discriminating against anyone as well.
People must become more aware of what is at stake if they don't vote!! It's unfortunate that many people have become less involved in what is going on around them and feel like their votes don't really matter. Wake up America your vote does matter and if you sit back and do nothing to make a change you get "trumped"!!
Don't want to sound overly simplistic but it's all about the MONEY! All this other chit chat is nonsense. America did use to plan long-term and get things done.
The idea of a few basic civic questions in the polling booth before you can vote seems a good idea to me, if people are choosing the way their country develops and its future basic knowledge doesn't seem a big ask.
I think a test of BASIC government function as a simple barrier to voting is a smart move. At the WORST, it MAKES every caring American look into politics. It is your right to vote if you're a citizen. But if you don't know SHIT about politics or actually policy decision, like the vast majority of Americans and most people in general, you probably shouldn't be casting your vote off of "well that guy just sits better with me." You HAVE to be informed and you NEED to be engaged, that's that only way democracy actually works! Why do you think we've been getting shafted by our "leaders" since the second half of the 20th century??? The American people are apathetic and let their politicians run all over them.
In my opinion - the only way we can do something better than what is happening around the world in the countries where democracies are in function, people should be fined financially as well as it should go in their records if they don't vote as they are not participating in civic duties, they can't be benefited from govt run benefit programs.
Right after Maher and Moyo mentioned that dictatorships can do things democracies can't, Moyo mentions Singapore, a dictatorship, as an example we should follow. Oops
Weighted voting is absurd...Dem super delegates are bad enough. We need ranked or instant run-off voting so we are not cornered into the trap of always having to choose the lesser of two evils (or the evil of two lessers).
China operates its economy as a meaningful pursuit rather than a short-term disposable pleasure. Also, the Chinese people are largely apolitical meanwhile being heavily engaged with commerce/trade, good paying jobs, and the betterment of China. The economist lost me at the end with a wait vote or a poll tax. The root of the problem is big money in politics -- i.e., heavily slanted to favor the few over the many. The US is no longer a democratic-republic but an empire managed by bankers and the military.
I agree about America, but China is no model either. Rampant human rights violations, suppression of free speech, and a leader with a lifetime term negates all their positives.
Freedom of speech has been challenged here in the United States, too. Both models have their flaws -- clearly. The Chinese population and government are moving forward without the bickering special interests and elitist political parties that plague the United States. The United States reminds me of Ancient Greece's stubbornness -- i.e., always bickering about stuff, no strong coalition on how to go about things, and no sense of urgency to change for the betterment of the economy. Oh, but an attack on us (or a good war) will bring the country together.
You should have to pass a civics test before you're allowed to register to vote. Too many ignoramuses voting in the US is a big reason why we get the crap Representatives, Senators and Presidential candidates we have. It wouldn't surprise me if half the currently registered voters in this country couldn't pass a rudimentary test of governmental knowledge. You have to pass a written test to drive a car so why not have a test for the much more important responsibility of voting?
Enact 10 year term limits for all politicians and remove retirement pay, remove all exemptions, and remove lifetime medical. You'll be more focused on improvements to society if you have to actually live with the decisions you make while in office.
I don't think she is right about low voters participation rates in western Europe. This may be true for some countries, like France, but in many countries the participiation rates in recent elections were rising. For example: Germany 76% (+5%) , Austria 80% (+5%), Netherlands 82% (+ 7%) , UK 69% (+2,5%),...
"We now have professional politicians and that is a great disservice to us all" - WRONG!!! What Dambyssa Moyo favors here is technocracy and has zero to do with democracy. Democratic systems make it possible for any Jane or Joe to run for office and if they win it a professionalized bureaucracy is taking care of the specialist-topics and then communicates their advice to the politician. Politicians who get a certain ministerial portfolio in a government should indeed have worked in that portfolio beforehand but they must not necessarily be MDs, lawyers, engineers, economists etc.
"...the US is the vanguard of liberal democracy. hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha If by that she means guarding US interests by blowing the shit out of everyone else's - then she's right.
dogless10 But even that is not the same from one school to the next and could be easily manipulated to favor certain political ideologies or socio-economic groups. Plus, how often would you need to take this test? What kind of impact would it have for registration or election day delays? It's just not that simple, and even if it could be done, it does not guarantee better candidates or election results.
dogless10 There are measures that we can take to increase awareness and engagement. We can do a better job educating our kids on the practical side of civics and creating curriculum that emphasizes the lost skill of critical reasoning. We can champion changing the way we vote (polls open for multiple days at more locations, more convenient voter registration, using ranked or instant run-off voting, perhaps even online voting). The parties themselves need to concentrate on better ways to engage their own supporters and mobilize their local voter drives. But I think we also have to accept that in a democratic society there are always going to be a percentage of the population who simply don't care. It's sad, but it is what it is.
But tha'ts the thing Moyo.. We have too many politicians who have been entrenched in the system, but like it or not, we do need those who are versed in politics, those who are well versed in foreign relations, ambassadors, people who are savvy to facilitate true compromise and deal making. BUT, without the lobbying power of corporations... Corporations aren't people.. I don't care what SCOTUS says.. And yes, we need real people in careers who understand their respective demographics, teachers, iron workers, healthcare professionals, etc.. but they DO have to have some political senses of how to get things done.. By your assertion, it's okay to have reality TV star, real estate mogul in the white house.. But he lacks political common sense..
Disappointed. Based on the title "Edge of Chaos" from an economist, I was hoping for something technical. The edge of chaos principle which sprang from chaos theory has a lot of interesting implications, not least of which to economics. But instead it's just the most basic skim of how the incentives and feedback in democracy don't work very well. Well no shit.
Honestly I'm all for weighted voting if it will prevent future Trumps... like Winston Churchill said "The strongest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with one of the voters"
Mikhael37 But who gets to assign which voters get which weight with their vote? This process would be rife with a possibility for corruption. the Democrats' super delegate process is essentially weighted voting, and that gave us Hillary Clinton as our candidate. That alone is evidence to me that weighted voting is a losing scenario.
You are correct, it's a vulnerable system... then we are stuck with Trump-like candidates winning seeing as how gullible the average voter is. I think when they went forward with the argument to include civics tests (similar to what immigrants get when they become citizens) it might solve the problem of who gets more weight. Then we have the issue of who comes up with the tests... maybe humanities professors
tacoeatingzebra True, but the existence of super delegates alone taints the democratic process and dissuades supporters of candidates such as Sanders from even participating when it's a rigged outcome from the start.
Mikhael37 Can you imagine the backlash from the anti-intellectual GOP to humanities professors writing the test? The whole process would be a quagmire of infighting that ultimately would lead to even more voter suppression. Clinton didn't lose because Trump's supporters were ignorant, she lost because she was so unpopular that millions didn't even bother to vote, especially in swing states. But the real reason I oppose these tests is that it would validate all the arguments made by white racists in the postbellum South who used similar tests to keep freed slaves from voting. It was heinous then, and no better now. A political caste system is unconstitutional.
On incentivizing long term results, how can you really measure long term growth or results in one year though. I agree with the argument for somehow rewarding long term outcomes. I just don’t see how we can do it without getting rid of term limits. Weighted voting however is a good idea. Morons shouldn’t have the same say as Harvard educated PhDs on economic issues.
Who decides whose vote gets the most weight? The Harvard admissions office? This proposal is more heinous than gerrymandering. One glance at the DNC's super delegate process demonstrates how horrible weighted voting would be. ALL CITIZENS living in this country should have equal say in how it is run. I hate the way the people in predominantly red states evaluate their candidates, but suppressing their vote is not the answer. The answer lies in education and messaging, not a deeper dive into oligarchy or the creation of an unconstitutional political caste system.
Last Guy Minn while I agree with you, I can’t see an alternative to the current model, which is failing us. The Australian model of forcing every adult to vote is much worse than ours. Our political systems need the kinds of innovations that have made other sectors of Our society successful. You can’t tell me that a semiliterate coal miner from middle Pennsylvania should be given the same platform as a climate scientist on issues of climate change. Some opinions are better than others.
china gets things done becasue people dont get a choice. they study hard and they can stick half their people in factories. the average income in china is 5thousand dollars.
Itumo and how did they do that exactly? have u heard of the cultural revolution in china? did u understand the millions put into factories in order pull said people out of poverty? do u think china doesnt have poor and rich? do people have rights enjoyed in other places? freedom of speech for example?
America doesn't have poor and rich? Have you looked at America's gini coefficient(inequality index)? One of the highest in the developed world. And America didn't put millions into factories to become rich? If Africans didn't do it for you, your aristocracy would have forced the regular man to do it. I mean, you lot put kids in coal mines.
Don't be silly. China has a Free Market economy. They provide almost unrestricted access to trade with most nations of the world. Their tech entrepreneurs hardly even file patents, just to keep the innovation alive. Its Europe and America that's becoming socialist & isolationist because their citizens can't handle competition.
The woman is *insane.* Detached from reality. Yeah, link their pay to long-term outcomes. How does that work? You want to incentivize them to deliver "good" outcomes 25 years from now. So 25 years from now you *get in your fucking time machine* and travel back 24 years so you can tell them "You made good choices, here's your pay rise." *The woman is fucking insane.* And how do we decide what are good outcomes? We use the *same broken process* that consistently generates bad outcomes to decide what constitutes good outcomes. The two parties can't even agree what time of day it is. We have one side consistently robbing the poor to give to the rich because they think that is a *good* outcome, so it's pretty obvious what they'll choose if they have a hand in deciding what constitutes good outcomes. *The woman is fucking insane.* Don't get me wrong. What we have no is broken and needs to be fixed. What we have now looks only at short-term gains by a minority of the populace. But the ideas expressed here are completely unworkable because *the woman is fucking insane.*
Off topic, religion, again: When my brother said he doesn't believe (you know what), I was surprised, because that's so normal, or obvious as in normal, to me, but then, he is right. No beard though for me or the Adam and Eve story; evolution surpasses that by miles. Maybe one modest lightyear. Which is I can't tell. Let's stick with something we know. Thank you Dambisa Moyo. Please see my slightly truncated Europe comment for your judgement.
democracy schmocracy. free to do what? starve to death, that's all you are free to do in america. democracy is possible. all we have to do is expunge all of the wealthy fucks and their thugs, the police and politicians, from the gene pool.
So...Dambisa Moyo...Telling us what democracy should like in her opinion...Ms. Moyo, very fetching here, got an MPA from Harvard...Then got a DPhil from Oxford...Then worked at the World Bank...Then worked for ,you guessed it, Goldman-Sachs....let's face it, Ms. Moyo is a neoliberal elitist who intends to make sure the economic status quo is maintained...
Dror Ben Ami not the biggest fan of the Chinese rule, but their population is 2.2 billion approximately. So one in seven. America has an estimated six million in extreme poverty based on the same metric (living on $2/day or less) out of 320 million...about one in 53. The problem is, our numbers have doubled in the last 22 years. China’s has actually gone DOWN. So something isn’t working here either...
china's population is 1.3 billion......regardless...my point is that everything is not as rosey in china as bill suggests i like bill, but he really is just a comedian and doesn't know too much about anything...his staff writes his material
He might not know that much about a lot of things... But you missed the point to begin with. Yes China do get things done... Doesn't mean one wants to live there (or emulate their system).
"a dictatorship is more efficient than a democracy"... Essentially you have just repeated me... We don't want to live there. That being said, dictatorships are not more efficient than democracies, we have ample evidence for that... But with a democracy as dysfunctional as the US, one could make the argument that nearly any other system would be more effective.
Who assigns who gets what weight? Do we also have weighted protections under the law? Do those with less weight in their vote pay less taxes since they have less of a say and how they are spent? Who is less equal than you?
Why didn't she get more applause? Or any at all? She was ridiculously on point!
She really wasn't... Her point can be made like this:
"We have a problem about falling voter participation, lets make it harder for people to vote (take a test), so that the population with the vote shrinks, making out number of voter participation looks better."
Her point of linking payments for the politicians, to what they do while in office, is interesting... But whom is setting those standarts? Is it the politicians (on a year to year standart)? Or is she talking about making an amendment, and in that case what are the variables? She mentions a few, but are those the only ones, or are there needs for more?
More to the point, what she is actually saying, is that the politicians needs "incentives" to do the right things... That is a real problem, because she didn't follow up and said that money in politics should go away, so in her system, you would still have the legal bribes that there are now...
Most of the people voted into office are pretty smart (you might not like them, but that doesn't mean they are not smart)... That didn't give you that great an outcome!
And there is nothing simple of "make offices and the whole political process more transparent and educate people"... The concept might be, but it is damn hard to do any of the things you said.
I think she (this video in general) brought up some really valid concerns (problems) with the current democratic systems in the US and the rest of the world.
The 4-year election process disables all reforms that are detrimental in the short-term, but necessary in the long-term. The one man-one vote approach is also showing it's downsides (Trump and like in the rest of the world are its clear symptom). We can all plainly see that not all people deserve the same number of votes.
The problem with both of these issues is finding a solution for them. Removing elections makes politician unaccountable, whilst objective criteria for determining how many votes certain people get are difficult/impossible to find. Better education, as mentioned, is a solution, but it again depends on what kind of education people/their elected representatives think is better. I'd say that the Trump administration has a completely different idea of better education than we do.
Sure valid concerns where brought up!
I am not questioning that... I am questioning why we should say that she is great, when most of her solutions are completely detrimental to the people. Also, most of what she said is not solutions!
"The one man-one vote approach is also showing it's downsides"... It might be other places... But not in the US, in the case of Trump, because that was not what happened, he won on the electoral college, not personal votes, if "one man-one vote" had been the case Clinton would be the president right now.
"We can all plainly see that not all people deserve the same number of votes". Really? Why do you want an even heavier top-down process in the US?
"I'd say that the Trump administration has a completely different idea of better education than we do." I agree entirely, and that is why your suggestion of limiting votes/giving more votes to "certain" people, is madness!
Two of the big problems in the US (when it comes to voting) is lack of representation (money in politics, two party system ect.) and the systems failure to do their job (the fake news, politics in the court systems ect.). None of these problems are addressed by making a class-system in voting, or paying politicians more, for doing what they allegedly were voted in for, to begin with.
'''''' We can all plainly see that not all people deserve the same number of votes.''''''''...................God forbid everyone be equal.............we wouldn't want that
So weird she didn't get more applause. Extremely intelligent. Bias is a very deep thing.
Glad to see Bill is still inviting guests like this to his show, very interesting discussion
Miss Moyo has brought up some great points. She's very articulate and wll researched. Bring her back again Bill!
Alright now, this woman has it! Educated, Poised, Knowledgeable, Informative, oh yeah she's one of us. 💯
I am ordering your 📑 now. Thanks Bill, long time listener and fan. FYI, i saw them eyes 😉.
Thank You In Advanced well wait shes not right about everything. shes right about donations and lobbyists but if people choose not to vote than they cant complain
Marvin Burkholder burned any crosses lately?
Marvin Burkholder You dolt. She has more eloquence and intelligence than you could ever achieve.
jack johnson They can. It's myopic to think that one must vote especially when the options are as dire as they were in 2016. Boycotting is also a strategy.
Locked up in a basement and tied to a bed, let's take a vote on who gets to rape us. You can't complain.
Was disappointed at the number of times Bill interrupted Ms. Moyo. I think she had a number of points prepared which we didn't get to hear.
Agreed! He did it multiple times to her.
Yea, but this is a discussion, not a lecture. Also, it's a tv show that allows limited time to talk.
actually, out of habit Bill usually interrupts his one-on-one guests even more, he was more reserved with her than usual
Agreed! I realize that there are time restraints in broadcast TV, but at least let the woman finish a sentence! Geez.
I found her to be extremely interesting and on topic. I MUST read her book!
Dambiso Moyo is one of the most underrated African intellectuals imo. I read her first book “Dead Aid” as a freshman in college a decade ago and have witnessed the impact it has had on the world. As an African from one of largest aid recipients on the continent, South Sudan🇸🇸, I can attest to the destructive, counterproductive nature of the foreign aid regime. She first made an argument for an authoritarian leadership as the most effective form of government for developing countries in that book. While I had reservations on the subject initially, I have come to see, albeit reluctantly, the wisdom of that statement. That’s why China the rules. Democracy, especially in developing countries, attracts the worst kinds of people at the most pivotal periods of those country’s development.
She's smart and stunning.
And she is 49!
In Australia if you don't vote. At 18 you are registered , but you don't vote ,you get fined. Why? because living in a Country were you can vote. Means you are Lucky.
yeah, it was absurd of this lady to say the US is at the vanguard of liberal democracy ... we are at the end, and going backwards.
we were the first liberal democracy in the world ........how s that not true?
I am lucky but don't force people to vote
Robinsss ... did you ever get any education. Are you able to speak in complete sentences and convey full ideas. Who are you talking to? Who is we? How is what not true? Do you ever bother to think about what it is you are trying to say or you just blurt without any idea all the time?
Don't force people to vote. Plenty of those people that have no interest in politics just blow off their ballet.
Beautiful and brilliant...👏👏
"Linking their pay to longer term outcomes."
True That. If you make it more lucrative to walk upright than to root in the gutter, Maybe this place'll stop smelling like a pig sty.
Well said!
And whom is setting those standarts (in most cases it would end up being the politicians)? Her argument is novel, but her solution is to counter bribes with... Bribes (essentially)... The trouble in the US is not the lack of money, it is the amount of money in politics (among others), and her solution is more money.
bandholm no system is impervious to corruption. I’d like to know if Singapore’s system is measurably better for them.
"impervious"... No.
But she doesn't adresse the problem, she argues that the politicians would do better, if they get payed more... However that is not really the problem in US politics, that problem is more with promises of future pays that are quit a lot larger.
Very few elected officials care one whit about the amount of their government paycheck. They are in it for the big payouts from corporations and special interests. It's the dark money that needs to be stopped.
finally i heard someone say the things i've thought for years!
I think lawmaker salaries ought to mirror teacher salaries. Both are there to do good for our young. Teachers are under quite a bit of scrutiny, and I think the ones who are also looking out for their futures should be right there under the microscope politics has put teachers under. Actually, the EXACT SAME microscope they imposed should be used. I hope they like it!
We need to get big money corruption out of our politics.
OMG! Dambisa Moyo for President!!!
Stacey Rohr omg no please. shes got some good points but shes also dead wrong on china
Didn’t she say she immigrated to the US?
people have to take a test before they can vote?.............that's a good idea?
Stacey Rohr - she can't. Not American.
@robinsss her point was that as an immigrant she had to take a civics test to become a citizen (and consequently be able to vote). Any US born might get through life never having to assert their aptitude for citizenship. So it would not be too far-fetched to be in a system where when people come of age and truly become citizens (usually around the age of 18) that they too would need to take said test to assert their aptitude instead of it being just given. See it like a drivers licence, but for democracy.
Obviously this is a very simplified version of a discussion that needs a lot of depth and many systems, like full access to education to all, would need to be in place to guaranty no one gets excluded etc. but its not too bad of an idea if you truly think about it.
Ms. Moyo, seems educated, but more so she seems wise. Great guess.
"Seems educated"???? No, she doesnt "seem" educated...SHE **IS** EDUCATED!! Oxford educated to be precise. You can keep your backhanded compliment.
Reason1717: very stereotypical. Always expecting the person with the brown skin tone not to show a mastery of world affairs.
Jack Johnson, I was not expecting her to dumb, actually I had no expectations at all.
Eclectic, "guest" was indeed my thought, thanks, I dislike type-o-s myself.
Actually it was NOT a back-handed not left handed compliment. It was an actual compliment. Watch Fox news you'll see many the educated person. Yet despite that education they deny climate change. Where Oxford is indeed prestigious, I have seen Harvard grads on Fox come across clueless.
She is so informed and well researched. I hope Bill has her back soon on the show. Curious to read her book.
Have you never taken an econ course?? Wait for her book. Everything she said was a result of watching the news and reading it, as well.
For a functioning democracy, an educated electorate is needed.
So America, we are fucked!!!!
This woman is fucking BRILLIANT. Why isn't she more prominent? Americans should be required to listen to her for 5 minutes a day until we collectively decide to pull our heads out of our asses.
Millennials that I know, and I worked in a School so I know a lot, they look to the Nordic Economic System. A Great Nation has a Healthy, Well-Educated Populace.
As a mother of 5 and my youngest a millennial, would like to say Millenials on the whole are absolutely brilliant. My son's classmates and friends are naturally wise. They are investigative and concerned. They seem to understand the true essence that religion is trying to teach without the religious superstition and baggage. And they don't have a pretext for backing down to who poses as authority- very respectful but they take no prisoners. The lot of them love Bernie Sanders. I think that is outstanding. Peace
ijvo1951 it also has a populace that works and studies hard. peoples always want the perks but they never want to put in the time
Vee K. Umm what are u using to back up such high praise? im a "millenial" myself and most of my peers are loudmouth dags who dont understand the first thing about working. where do u see such high minded thinking going on exactly? oh bernie sanders ur kidding I hope? so let's make everything free?
Hey Jack. We spend some of the year in Northern India and have many friends there. I have a working ranch in Austin and another near Santa Fe. My husband travels for work and we have gone along al over Europe and have many friends there. We are residents of Boulder, Colorado. I am native to Boulder and my husband is from Spain. We have travelled a lot from Ecuador to Pakistan and in 42 states. Pretty much everywhere there are wise people.
Vee K. I live in seoul and have been to over 40 countries. what's ur point? other than listing places uve been?
An intelligent interview, not just conservative bashing for cheap applause. Nice.
Good interview Bill
As an immigrant I was also asked to show my engagement and knowledge before getting the right to vote, I never minded it but I dont think USA born Americans would like that.
Her solutions are....odd. I'd say that what is needed is to end the "Citizens United" decision that legalized bribery via making bribes into "speech". Another good idea is to end gerrymandering, so that politicians don't get to pick their voters, when it is the voters who should be picking politicians. Gerrymandering turns many states into de facto one-party states, which in turn means that the rich only need to corrupt the leaders of that one party.
Agreed... Her solutions are actually really bad.
If the US followed her ideas, there would be a class system (more than is already the case) of voters, and politicians that got payed more... How is that better again?
aren't campaign donations political speech?
+Michael Matherne I believe there is precisely a zero chance reps would ever willingly vote to end gerrymandering, they'd cease to be a major party by the following elections
Dambissa Moyo is like Bill Maher's dream wife lol.
this woman speaks soo articulately.
People don't participate because both parties are literally owned by the same corporations, like Goldman Sachs, AT&T, Bank of America, Microsoft, Lockheed Martin etc... They give to both parties, so they win either way, something Bill will never ever address, despite it being the root of the problem. #corptocracy
People like Bill are paid to be dumb.
It's all for a republican agenda. Democrats are paid by the same donors but at about 20% of the amount paid to Republicans. Democrats are paid to be weak and allow the republican agenda. Bernie or Bust
Parties are great before they put parties above people. I have to agree with you that corporations own our political system but does not always the case. In theory, political parties are excellent but sucks in practice because of everyone’s personal agenda and profit motives.
Actually he does, he knows money rules the system which is why he gave Obama that one million.
Maher tends to be more pragmatic, he doesn't think that it is easily possible to put in place a progressive party.
Bill maher has talked about money in politics many times.
Agree with everything she stated...
gorgeous and smart, I am drooling….
Wow brilliant lady I want to hear more from her.
I don't think pay linked to long term outcomes will help. Politicians worry about re election, and most have highly lucrative jobs in the private sector after their tenure is up. Lot of favors and gladhanding going on. No amount of pay could keep them honest when millions of dollars in bribe money are at stake.
Ken Havens
Right. It's the payouts from corporations and special interests that corrupt the system. Nobody goes into politics for the government paycheck.
Can he ever stop interrupting women? So frustrating when he gets an interesting female on to talk about something they've studied closely and he cuts in constantly.
Publicly funded elections, so politicians don't have to go begging. Canada dose it.
I disagree with her voting recommendations
She is awesome
Increase term length across federal and state legislatures to 6 years, reduce term limits to one.
Every US presidential nominee should have to take an employment test.
Absolutely true about weighted voting. If the only things you know about your political candidate are the "build the wall" and "drain the swamp" chants, your vote shouldn't be worth very much...
Bonuses based upon data for Singapore politicians may work there.. but here, the data would then become skewed..
Take away the money involved in elections, then require most politicians to have some form of qualifications they can bring to the table. I say *most* to not turn away those who have the willpower and good ideas which are supported by the people, but not necessarily have the right education or qualifications. By taking away the money from the elections, you help on the way to ensure that everyone gets an equal chance. Money have a tendency to get in the way of real progress. Either it be greed or just that it's not financially beneficial.
Weighted voting is a bad idea because you'd essentially have to subjectively measure people. A poll tax(if I heard that right), seems like a good idea. It'd force people to actually read up on the elections and ensure that votes aren't just bought because they like a certain candidate based on shallow characteristics. It'd essentially rinse out the people who do society a disfavor by voting.
If I for example had to vote on which kind of beer tastes best out of five brands, it would kind of be expected of me that I've tried those five brands. Blind voting is generally not good for societies. That's how you get idiots elected for office. Of course it's not foolproof, but at least it'd be a step in the right direction. It's not discriminating against anyone as well.
Her observation is to the point, but her solution is not something I'll support.
People must become more aware of what is at stake if they don't vote!! It's unfortunate that many people have become less involved in what is going on around them and feel like their votes don't really matter. Wake up America your vote does matter and if you sit back and do nothing to make a change you get "trumped"!!
What a good little follower you are, keep voting for your leader. You fucking coward.
What a fascinating person!
Zambian gem.
Pay politics more.. Well done
100% agree on some type of pre voting minimal standard of testing.
Don't want to sound overly simplistic but it's all about the MONEY! All this other chit chat is nonsense. America did use to plan long-term and get things done.
The idea of a few basic civic questions in the polling booth before you can vote seems a good idea to me, if people are choosing the way their country develops and its future basic knowledge doesn't seem a big ask.
Beautiful smart woman
i think weighted voting is the way to go. do it based on iq. 100 gets you one vote, 80 is 0.8 votes, 140 is 1.4 votes.
"The United States is the vanguard of liberal democracies"
Do you even Swiss, brah?
Term Limits! no more professional politicians,!!!!
No minimum experience standard for politicians. Yes yes. Huge problem.
Smart beautiful woman.
Let her talk!
I think a test of BASIC government function as a simple barrier to voting is a smart move.
At the WORST, it MAKES every caring American look into politics. It is your right to vote if you're a citizen. But if you don't know SHIT about politics or actually policy decision, like the vast majority of Americans and most people in general, you probably shouldn't be casting your vote off of "well that guy just sits better with me." You HAVE to be informed and you NEED to be engaged, that's that only way democracy actually works! Why do you think we've been getting shafted by our "leaders" since the second half of the 20th century???
The American people are apathetic and let their politicians run all over them.
Compulsory voting.
In my opinion - the only way we can do something better than what is happening around the world in the countries where democracies are in function, people should be fined financially as well as it should go in their records if they don't vote as they are not participating in civic duties, they can't be benefited from govt run benefit programs.
Europe: now they've taken credit for it.
Right after Maher and Moyo mentioned that dictatorships can do things democracies can't, Moyo mentions Singapore, a dictatorship, as an example we should follow. Oops
That would rule out all Trump supporters.
I wish he had let her talk.
Note to Bill: China isn't a dictatorship. Know about it before you knock it.
Weighted voting is absurd...Dem super delegates are bad enough. We need ranked or instant run-off voting so we are not cornered into the trap of always having to choose the lesser of two evils (or the evil of two lessers).
Debts, income inequality etc. These are capitalist problems
I think that was a stage in Dissidia Final Fantasy.
China operates its economy as a meaningful pursuit rather than a short-term disposable pleasure. Also, the Chinese people are largely apolitical meanwhile being heavily engaged with commerce/trade, good paying jobs, and the betterment of China.
The economist lost me at the end with a wait vote or a poll tax. The root of the problem is big money in politics -- i.e., heavily slanted to favor the few over the many. The US is no longer a democratic-republic but an empire managed by bankers and the military.
Yep
I agree about America, but China is no model either. Rampant human rights violations, suppression of free speech, and a leader with a lifetime term negates all their positives.
Freedom of speech has been challenged here in the United States, too. Both models have their flaws -- clearly. The Chinese population and government are moving forward without the bickering special interests and elitist political parties that plague the United States.
The United States reminds me of Ancient Greece's stubbornness -- i.e., always bickering about stuff, no strong coalition on how to go about things, and no sense of urgency to change for the betterment of the economy. Oh, but an attack on us (or a good war) will bring the country together.
You should have to pass a civics test before you're allowed to register to vote. Too many ignoramuses voting in the US is a big reason why we get the crap Representatives, Senators and Presidential candidates we have. It wouldn't surprise me if half the currently registered voters in this country couldn't pass a rudimentary test of governmental knowledge. You have to pass a written test to drive a car so why not have a test for the much more important responsibility of voting?
Pace yourself.
Enact 10 year term limits for all politicians and remove retirement pay, remove all exemptions, and remove lifetime medical. You'll be more focused on improvements to society if you have to actually live with the decisions you make while in office.
912Bush
Until you remove the corporate bribery codified by Citizens United, you're just spittin' into the wind.
wait..the problem is? UNREGULATED CRONY CAPITILISM. A OLIGARGHY!
I don't think she is right about low voters participation rates in western Europe. This may be true for some countries, like France, but in many countries the participiation rates in recent elections were rising. For example: Germany 76% (+5%) , Austria 80% (+5%), Netherlands 82% (+ 7%) , UK 69% (+2,5%),...
Antiquity: Greece was the for front of democracy.
+jlcjapon59 for front = forefront
"We now have professional politicians and that is a great disservice to us all" - WRONG!!! What Dambyssa Moyo favors here is technocracy and has zero to do with democracy. Democratic systems make it possible for any Jane or Joe to run for office and if they win it a professionalized bureaucracy is taking care of the specialist-topics and then communicates their advice to the politician. Politicians who get a certain ministerial portfolio in a government should indeed have worked in that portfolio beforehand but they must not necessarily be MDs, lawyers, engineers, economists etc.
"...the US is the vanguard of liberal democracy. hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha If by that she means guarding US interests by blowing the shit out of everyone else's - then she's right.
Can’t pass a basic civics test?
You don’t get to vote...
Define exactly what a "basic test" constitutes. There is not an objective way to measure to this.
Last Guy Minn How about whatever a middle-schooler takes?
dogless10
But even that is not the same from one school to the next and could be easily manipulated to favor certain political ideologies or socio-economic groups. Plus, how often would you need to take this test? What kind of impact would it have for registration or election day delays?
It's just not that simple, and even if it could be done, it does not guarantee better candidates or election results.
Last Guy Minn If you say so. It’s just an idea. Do you have any ideas to raise the levels of voter education and participation?
dogless10
There are measures that we can take to increase awareness and engagement. We can do a better job educating our kids on the practical side of civics and creating curriculum that emphasizes the lost skill of critical reasoning. We can champion changing the way we vote (polls open for multiple days at more locations, more convenient voter registration, using ranked or instant run-off voting, perhaps even online voting). The parties themselves need to concentrate on better ways to engage their own supporters and mobilize their local voter drives.
But I think we also have to accept that in a democratic society there are always going to be a percentage of the population who simply don't care. It's sad, but it is what it is.
12 people dislike since Moyo was the one who blew up the foreign aid cult and wrecked the egos of Bono and Bill Gates.
But tha'ts the thing Moyo.. We have too many politicians who have been entrenched in the system, but like it or not, we do need those who are versed in politics, those who are well versed in foreign relations, ambassadors, people who are savvy to facilitate true compromise and deal making. BUT, without the lobbying power of corporations... Corporations aren't people.. I don't care what SCOTUS says.. And yes, we need real people in careers who understand their respective demographics, teachers, iron workers, healthcare professionals, etc.. but they DO have to have some political senses of how to get things done.. By your assertion, it's okay to have reality TV star, real estate mogul in the white house.. But he lacks political common sense..
Moyo is great but she should lose the stupid wig.
Disappointed. Based on the title "Edge of Chaos" from an economist, I was hoping for something technical. The edge of chaos principle which sprang from chaos theory has a lot of interesting implications, not least of which to economics. But instead it's just the most basic skim of how the incentives and feedback in democracy don't work very well. Well no shit.
Honestly I'm all for weighted voting if it will prevent future Trumps... like Winston Churchill said "The strongest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with one of the voters"
Mikhael37
But who gets to assign which voters get which weight with their vote? This process would be rife with a possibility for corruption. the Democrats' super delegate process is essentially weighted voting, and that gave us Hillary Clinton as our candidate. That alone is evidence to me that weighted voting is a losing scenario.
You are correct, it's a vulnerable system... then we are stuck with Trump-like candidates winning seeing as how gullible the average voter is. I think when they went forward with the argument to include civics tests (similar to what immigrants get when they become citizens) it might solve the problem of who gets more weight. Then we have the issue of who comes up with the tests... maybe humanities professors
I voted for Sanders in the primaries, but Clinton won the nomination even without superdelegates.
tacoeatingzebra
True, but the existence of super delegates alone taints the democratic process and dissuades supporters of candidates such as Sanders from even participating when it's a rigged outcome from the start.
Mikhael37
Can you imagine the backlash from the anti-intellectual GOP to humanities professors writing the test? The whole process would be a quagmire of infighting that ultimately would lead to even more voter suppression. Clinton didn't lose because Trump's supporters were ignorant, she lost because she was so unpopular that millions didn't even bother to vote, especially in swing states.
But the real reason I oppose these tests is that it would validate all the arguments made by white racists in the postbellum South who used similar tests to keep freed slaves from voting. It was heinous then, and no better now. A political caste system is unconstitutional.
Funny, sounds eerily similar to Trump's "end birthright citizenship".
This woman was Henry second choice for a wife!!
funny how the audience listening intensively quiet she is so politically globally right
Bill Maher, you interrupted Ms. Moyo A LOT! Your points are well taken, but please practice a little courtesy.
She is brilliant but her views are harsh. I don't agree with most of her views.
On incentivizing long term results, how can you really measure long term growth or results in one year though. I agree with the argument for somehow rewarding long term outcomes. I just don’t see how we can do it without getting rid of term limits. Weighted voting however is a good idea. Morons shouldn’t have the same say as Harvard educated PhDs on economic issues.
Who decides whose vote gets the most weight? The Harvard admissions office? This proposal is more heinous than gerrymandering. One glance at the DNC's super delegate process demonstrates how horrible weighted voting would be. ALL CITIZENS living in this country should have equal say in how it is run. I hate the way the people in predominantly red states evaluate their candidates, but suppressing their vote is not the answer. The answer lies in education and messaging, not a deeper dive into oligarchy or the creation of an unconstitutional political caste system.
Last Guy Minn while I agree with you, I can’t see an alternative to the current model, which is failing us. The Australian model of forcing every adult to vote is much worse than ours. Our political systems need the kinds of innovations that have made other sectors of Our society successful. You can’t tell me that a semiliterate coal miner from middle Pennsylvania should be given the same platform as a climate scientist on issues of climate change. Some opinions are better than others.
china gets things done becasue people dont get a choice. they study hard and they can stick half their people in factories. the average income in china is 5thousand dollars.
And they raised 500 million people out of poverty in 3 decades.
Itumo and how did they do that exactly? have u heard of the cultural revolution in china? did u understand the millions put into factories in order pull said people out of poverty? do u think china doesnt have poor and rich? do people have rights enjoyed in other places? freedom of speech for example?
America doesn't have poor and rich? Have you looked at America's gini coefficient(inequality index)? One of the highest in the developed world.
And America didn't put millions into factories to become rich? If Africans didn't do it for you, your aristocracy would have forced the regular man to do it. I mean, you lot put kids in coal mines.
why not try something more contemporary. it's always sad to see someone defending communism. it's a level of ignorance that is shocking
Don't be silly. China has a Free Market economy. They provide almost unrestricted access to trade with most nations of the world. Their tech entrepreneurs hardly even file patents, just to keep the innovation alive.
Its Europe and America that's becoming socialist & isolationist because their citizens can't handle competition.
The woman is *insane.* Detached from reality.
Yeah, link their pay to long-term outcomes. How does that work? You want to incentivize them to deliver "good" outcomes 25 years from now. So 25 years from now you *get in your fucking time machine* and travel back 24 years so you can tell them "You made good choices, here's your pay rise." *The woman is fucking insane.*
And how do we decide what are good outcomes? We use the *same broken process* that consistently generates bad outcomes to decide what constitutes good outcomes. The two parties can't even agree what time of day it is. We have one side consistently robbing the poor to give to the rich because they think that is a *good* outcome, so it's pretty obvious what they'll choose if they have a hand in deciding what constitutes good outcomes. *The woman is fucking insane.*
Don't get me wrong. What we have no is broken and needs to be fixed. What we have now looks only at short-term gains by a minority of the populace. But the ideas expressed here are completely unworkable because *the woman is fucking insane.*
I disagree... total fear mongoring
MuZimbo here
She can't afford a better weave?
You have to vote Dems ! You are now seeing what a minority rule looks like ... /-:
Off topic, religion, again: When my brother said he doesn't believe (you know what), I was surprised, because that's so normal, or obvious as in normal, to me, but then, he is right. No beard though for me or the Adam and Eve story; evolution surpasses that by miles. Maybe one modest lightyear. Which is I can't tell. Let's stick with something we know.
Thank you Dambisa Moyo. Please see my slightly truncated Europe comment for your judgement.
democracy schmocracy. free to do what? starve to death, that's all you are free to do in america. democracy is possible. all we have to do is expunge all of the wealthy fucks and their thugs, the police and politicians, from the gene pool.
So...Dambisa Moyo...Telling us what democracy should like in her opinion...Ms. Moyo, very fetching here, got an MPA from Harvard...Then got a DPhil from Oxford...Then worked at the World Bank...Then worked for ,you guessed it, Goldman-Sachs....let's face it, Ms. Moyo is a neoliberal elitist who intends to make sure the economic status quo is maintained...
+Watson Roadster lol I was waiting for you to reveal some dirt on her, but after that resume I respect her even more
Was she a spicegirl?
+philliesphan312 Political Spice
oh yes bill, china gets things done with 300 million people living in extreme poverty
Dror Ben Ami not the biggest fan of the Chinese rule, but their population is 2.2 billion approximately. So one in seven. America has an estimated six million in extreme poverty based on the same metric (living on $2/day or less) out of 320 million...about one in 53. The problem is, our numbers have doubled in the last 22 years. China’s has actually gone DOWN. So something isn’t working here either...
china's population is 1.3 billion......regardless...my point is that everything is not as rosey in china as bill suggests
i like bill, but he really is just a comedian and doesn't know too much about anything...his staff writes his material
He might not know that much about a lot of things... But you missed the point to begin with.
Yes China do get things done... Doesn't mean one wants to live there (or emulate their system).
yes you are right...the Third Riech also "got things done".....a dictatorship is more efficient than a democracy, but at what cost?
"a dictatorship is more efficient than a democracy"... Essentially you have just repeated me... We don't want to live there.
That being said, dictatorships are not more efficient than democracies, we have ample evidence for that... But with a democracy as dysfunctional as the US, one could make the argument that nearly any other system would be more effective.
咦，天使长鼻变了，是助经济人或，，，?。
Weighed voting might be a solution. Because we're not all equal and that's a fact.
Who assigns who gets what weight? Do we also have weighted protections under the law? Do those with less weight in their vote pay less taxes since they have less of a say and how they are spent? Who is less equal than you?
Last Guy Minn all valid questions worth exploring. You up for it ?