I have no idea on how to repair cassette decks or anything about wow & flutter or stuff like that. I've just been using cassettes since I was a kid (I'm 51) to listen to my music. I am completely lost watching these videos, except when you show how to clean heads & stuff. 😂 I've never seen any of the decks you've shown on here either, but they all have been very nice-looking decks! 💯 Thank you for doing what you're doing with these videos. 👍🏻
Looks like I may be buying the KX-1100HX after all. The seller agreed on my price, now waiting for the eBay offer so I can accept it. Will keep you posted. Thanks for the videos. I really enjoy watching them.
The Sankyo dual capstan is very tricky. There is so much that can go wrong and quality of for example the pinch rollers varied between brands even in the same mech I worked on two H/K cd491 and after a lot of trying I got 0.05. Best results were with a webspareparts belt and !!original pinch rollers, despite the new ones feel more grippy. A lot of small things have to be right some things I fought with: -pinch roller contact timing, the right roller should turn first. Especially after replacing pinch rollers as the new ones are rarely exactly the right size -the famous gap (see tapeheads forum) between the head carriage and the pinch roller should be there. -The right pinch roller spring sometimes isn't strong enough any more. You see if you give some extra push on the right roller and wf decreases -idler tire should not slip -And again if possible clean the original pinch rollers thoroughly. New ones all doubled the W&F even with worn original ones (including the highly regarded fixyouraudio ones, I never had good luck with these pinch rollers) But there was a nice suprise. Using the two decks and checking a month later, both show W&F around 0.035!! It seems sometimes the new belt and oil just need some time . . I was using the ANT test tape for the W&F measurements. The blue HPR is terrible, his other tapes are great btw
Totally agree. I own both machines and i was always a little disappointed by the 1100. But the 880 has the best W/F in my entire collection. Even better then my ZX-9 !
Great experiment. Its a design trade off. Dual capstan tape stability. Or low W&F. Personally I'd take low W&F. The difference makes sense because you've got two rollers both interacting with the tape. And like you said you won't hear it, because ultimately both are good figures.
Sankyo's slave flywheels are a hit or miss, with their zinc pest problems. I have 1 KX-9010 (same mech as KX1100) that does 0.04%, and my friend's 9010 can't get lower than 0.12% after a minute. Just lowering the supply side roller brings the W&F on both to 0.0230% (so you can still have the slave flywheel and the belt running, only disabling the supply roller arm), which are the same numbers as the single capstan 880HX and our two KX-5010. The slave flywheels just degrade, with the surface "bubbling", and they go out of balance. Obviously I've tried EVERYTHING, I've completely rebuild the mechanism 3 times, even lapped the flywheel to smooth the bumps - but there is no fix. Belts are original and in excellent shape, with other belts on the bad 9010 there is no difference, even with bad belts. My conclusion in my case is either the bearings are shot (which shouldn't be the case since both decks are almost new, very low mileage based on the heads), or the flywheel. In my particular case it's a combination of both, because I've tested the bad 9010 with the flywheel from my machine - W&F improved for a while to 0.089% (still bad). It's sad, really.
i am sad you are experiencing this , 0.12% truely is too high. one last thing you can try , but you have probably already done that , is try without the back tension belt ? these transports are quite sensitive to that. i will have a look at the supply flywheel next time and see how badly they are unbalanced , i do seem to recall though that the supply flywheel had these "bumps" as you call them from new , they were never "smooth" , and i wonder how badly they degrade over time or if its a red herring . i'll post an update if i find more ? ps i just saw a hifirulezzz video where he runs into the same issues and i suggested deactivating the pinchroller (take pressure off) and take the back tension belt off to diagnose the issue some more
Just if you like to do an experiment: try to push the right pinchroller up a bit, because you get pretty mediocre W&F without the left flywheel too, something is off there. If it improves you can try shorten the spring. I did on one of my cd491s If the right roller doesn't has enough grip it makes it worse with the left flywheel inserted Can be that Kenwood just used worse rollers/flywheels/feedback circuitry as H/K or the naks though, it's just really high compared to the specs. Something has to be off or detoriated Btw I like your channel! Great work
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair btw I think your point of the video is valid. There are quite a bit of examples of what you found out. I also recommended new people to cassettes to buy a technics direct drive or at least a good single capstan just because the simplicity and good W&F figures. Not that dual capstan is worthless but it's just so much more complicated to maintain.
Two capstans sounds impressing but maybe only good for sales and / or auto reverse decks. You should see the same with auto reverse decks. Nice comparison thanks
Other thought: dual capstan was back in the day not really to lower W&F I think. It was more about giving the tape a stable tension between the rollers to isolate the shell from the mechanism and improve tape/head contact (naks used pad lifters) Other think is that speed drift is less as the tension varied less when the tape shifts from left to the right spool. BUT this is fixed in the later quartz locked single capstans.
@@georgebliss964 most w&f measuring devices are calibrated to 3000 or 3150Hz , i have never used 1000Hz personally but it might work as well , i’ll do a test and see if the numbers come out the same
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair Thanks for reminding me. I now remember that it wasn't 1000Hz that I used, rather 3000 which was the requirement of the free software I downloaded from the internet.
I had problem with stability in one of my walkmans - (no reverse - one capstain). Problem was so big that I had to do some research on it. I must admit that in my opinion I failed because I had no spare el motor for tape drive so I could not get confirmation of my suspicion. All I can say is that with fresh batteries it did not happen. Supppose with used could be lower speed but unusualy it started to wave. I suspected that motor somehow lost a bit of power. . . Because it looked like stabilization of rotations parameters were erretic due to else to belt elastictity or not matching the constans of timing for wheel. Whole mechanic with motor together was tending to get into low mechanical resonance. .. This may be something to do with these two cases - as you mentioned they used the same motor for two very different driven masses having double different inertia . Surely stabilization of less mass is much quiceker than double mass of two of wheels and short time srability suppose to be lowered . - errors which must be counter acted by motor have double energy with which motor must fight back .Difference between those two are small enough that it did not exceded even high quuality low margins which they achieved already with one capstain . For some reasons they wanted to make this solution - may be hard competition forced to do it? I am not specialist and have no clue what is realy the advantage of double capstains for user when one makes satisfactory listening.
well its you deck issue not the model. this is sankyo transport and there well know from worn capstans bearings. you single capstan deck was use very little so has low w&f but your dual capstan was used a lot with worn bearings. this is not only kenwood but every deck with sankyo transport like yamaha, denon, nakamich, teac, akai etc. its related yo your bad transport but not deck. you can easly check it. if the pastan is moving a bit up and down means your capstan bearings are worn. what you need to do is to mahe new bearings for capstan plus you need to check capstan stability, the same like a wheel in a car, if your wheel is not simetrical in wage then cur will not be stable. this is mechanical transport and most of people are thinking that changing belt is restoration but is not. see what you need to do in a carr and whats getting brocken. its the same here. the capstans are heavy and bearings are fragile. so your conclution is wrong. you have simply worn bad transport.
yamaha used the same transport but not with the DD motor , and they didnt use it for their 2 head models either with the DD motor , the same for nakamichi , teac , akai etc . afaik they all used the sankyo for their 3 heads with double flywheel , afaik no other manufacturer used the single DD model for their 2 heads. regarding the age and run time, they both have more or less the same run hours
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair i think you dont understand. the problem is bearing and it doesnt matter if is dd or not. all sankyo mechanism hjas bearing issue. the dual capstan deck are always better as i say again its your deck problem with worn capstan bearings and it doesnt mattaer what you say. comparing worn bearings to non worn bearings always will be a differences. those transports are very good but they need new bearings for cpastans. mine yamaha Kx-1200 with same transport (just no dd) has 0.03 w&f so if you could have mine bearings from mine yamaha for your kenwood it would be 0.02. as i say again its not deck but your used worn bearings. every duble capstan with a time has this issue as belt between capstans push them towors eatch other as a result the bearing gets worn. single capstan and dd desnt have this problem so you will find more single dd in better w&f. they just need new bearings.
@@Johny666EU your yamaha (and my own yamaha ua-cam.com/video/8WycxTmWi5I/v-deo.html ) kx-1200 perform great , w&f typically around 0.025-0.03% , however the kenwood kx-880 with the same sankyo transport with single flywheel - capstan performs much better (mechanically) than any dual flywheel - capstan deck with the sankyo transport from any other manufacturer . that doesnt mean the dual flywheel sankyo is bad, but the single flywheel sankyo just has better w&f than any other dual flywheel sankyo
@@Johny666EU ps i can do the same with my kx-1200 and show that the w&f improves from where it is now (0.025-0.03%) and improve the w&f with a measurable difference by taking the 2nd flywheel out , it will be more difficult as the motor is located differently and the belt will have to be a custom belt as it has no DD motor but it can be done , but it will just be a repetitive video . I’d rather take a NAK or other brand with the DD motor and 3 heads and do a before and after measurements
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair what you talking about? i told you already, you have brocken bearings and you stil the same. where is your logic and common sense? maybe yopu need really some experience? have you ever seen those deck as brand new? do you think people doesnt have over 35 years experience in decks? you comparing old, heavly used with brocken bearings devices and you based you logic on brocken machanisms. there are not new so what you want to compare? brocken vs brocken? come on man?
I do not doubt the KX-880 have lower wow&flutter than the KX-1100. But there seems to be some 3 head double capstan decks that have similar low w&f as the KX-880HX. ua-cam.com/video/c-My54jOzxk/v-deo.html ~0.015% ua-cam.com/video/QQZmzeZNJOM/v-deo.html ~0.025% But to your defense this Kenwood KX-5010 (successor to the KX-880HX) might just beat them all so maybe the KX-880HX has the lowest w&f after all (this one used a proper w&f calibration cassette). ua-cam.com/video/HA9H01vup8w/v-deo.html ~0.012% The double capstan was introduced to stretch (hold) the tape against the heads. Not to reduce w&f. They say this will reduce the modulation noise. I guess they mean signal changes caused by the tape fluctuating at different distances above the playhead. On a 2 head this is less or not necessary with a quality cassette since the play/rec head is centered like the cassette spring and felt pad. Nakamichi has made a model with a cassette pad lifter, but I do not know more about it, but they solved this issue in another way on that one maybe. The double capstan added w&f is often so low so it doesn't really matter just as you say you will not be hear it. Typically you can hear w&f ~0.1% according to what i have read (but I have no proof of that). So I agree with you an that too. As cost cutting came in the 1990s and the CD players was getting cheaper I guess nobody bothered making w&f below 0.05% anymore since you can not hear it anyways? Thank you for showing us all what the KX-880 can do. It really seems to have superb w&f.
8:17. THE SECOND FLYWHEEL ADDS TAPE TENTION. WITHOUT FLYWHEEL YOU NEED ERASE HEAD DRAG PIN TO ADD TAPE TENTION. ZERO TAPE TENTION IT WILL NOT RECORD AT ALL
i almost forgot i saw a 880 being sold on ebay for 80€ and bought it, my surprise ,instead of a parts deck i put it to use ,never understood why was so cheap while the dragon that is bellow by a lot in quality is being sold not new for 5.000€ and i sold mine for 100€ in 2006, i stoped it in August of 1983 and never thought of it again, but have others from nakamichi my favorite was the zx-9 but when i bought the cassette deck 1 ,was the best of all maybe the DR-1 is also good but never had the pleassure of using it, my older son has one
Using a tape recorded on a particular deck to measure that same deck's W&F is very, very wrong. Any periodic fluctuations such as those caused by eccentric capstans or pinchrollers or out-of-balance flywheels or belts will either cancel or enforce each other out depending on how the phase/position of the "offending" part aligns between recording and playback. This way you can make a seriously "wow-ing" deck with a bent capstan measure perfectly on its own recording. You should not divide by 2, but with anything between 0 and 2. The only way to get a somewhat meaningful figure with this setup is to average several individual measurements. That's the reason why precision pre-recorded W&F measuring tapes exist.
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair I'm sorry, is my English that bad? I wrote that measuring W&F using a tape recorded on the same unit is wrong and explained why. Same as calling a deck's azimuth aligned if it matches the tape it has just recorded.
@@mihaischitcu1917 using a tape recorded on a machine and then play back to measure W&F on that machine gives you a very meaningful data point , not an absolutely reference point but a very meaningful data point. if i record a tape on a deck and with playing back that tape it gives me 0.02% w&f i am "done" because a reference w&f tape should give me less w&f , typically half assuming the tape was recorded with 0% w&f , but i am "done" because even on my own recorded tape the w&f is within specs. now taking that 0.02% tape to another deck and that deck gives me 0.06% w&f that deck is 3x "worse" mechanically vs the original recording deck .furthermore it is highly unlikely (not 0 but highly unlikely) that parts rotating in the same direction "cancel out" each other , increasing the w&f is more likely , and that is exactly what i am showing here by taking out the parts that increase w&f and it proves my point that transports with more parts cause higher w&f , taking those parts out the w&f drops measurably
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair No, I am sorry but you are wrong. It's the same as using a self-recorded tape to verify tape running speed. And either way, all you would have proven is that your 1100 is in worse condition than your 880, particularly the belt and supply capstan / flywheel.
@@mihaischitcu1917 you can use a self recored 3000kHz tape depending what you are using the tape for. you cannot use it for setting correct speed on any deck but you *can* use it to determine speed differences in percentages between decks and i have proven exactly what i set out to prove , and that is that the 1100 performs better when you take out the "extra stuff" , and i can prove it over and over again with decks using the same transport with 2 flywheels. take any deck that uses the sankyo with 2 flywheels, take the flywheel out, remove the belt and inactivate the pinchroller and w&f will improve
Your KX-1100 seems to be way out of specs in terms of w&f. While your 880 isn't. According to hifiengine, 1100g shall be within 0.025%, 880g shall be within 0.027%.
maybe its out of spec , but why does the w&f improve by a good measurable margin when i make it a single capstan transport ? pinchroller is good , belt is original and capstan bearings were properly cleaned and lubricated , i know what the specs are / should be and both are within the rated specs as i am using a simple pre-recorded tape which effectively doubles the w&f when played back , so even with the higher w&f figures measured (0.05%) the 1100 is within spec but worse than the 880. anfd this is the same on the many 100s of 880s and 1100s i have handled , serviced and repaired
@@yuriykorotkevych8838 ps i dont know where hifiengine gets its info from but i just checked the original catalog and service manuals and they both state 0.025% for both , no 0.027 ?
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repairdual capstans are way more complicated and can be thrown off way easier than a single capstan drive. The difference in capstan diameters for tape tension along the head can also influence W&F, as well as the state the heads are in. Ironically, the KX-5010 vs. KX-9010 comparison is a similar thing. Belt quality plays a huge role. Pinch rollers as well. A pinch roller with play on the axle or irregular rotation will throw W&F off as well. I know repair guys who will prefer single capstans any time of the day because they are also much easier on the tape itself.
@@svenschwingel8632 ,thank you for your comment , the 5010 uses the same transport as the 880 , the 9010 uses the same transport as the 1100 , so you will most likely experience the same w&f differences as well with the 5010 better than the 9010 ;-)
i bought the most expensive model of walkman in 84, this in a travel with some north american friends, in Bagda, Iraque they couldn´t shut up about the most visionary leader of an Arab country ,their friend Saddam Hussein, funny isn´t it
HI THERE THAT S WHY CLOSED LOOP CAPFSTAIN MUST BE LARGER MOTOR,THAT S THE SAME AS SONY TCK 71 AN D 61 IS BETTER LOW AND FLUTTER!JUST BECAUSE THE SAME BSL MOTOR USED!
I'm sorry, but this proves nothing. First of all you can't compare the motors or the belts in those units, they have wear and tear and second, dual-capstan machines were not designed to work with supply flywheel/capstan disabled.
@@phaenius now i am curious , why cant i compare the 2 ? They literally have the same motor and i take all the ‘extra stuff’ out to show the ‘extra stuff’ causes more wow and flutter , out with the belt , pinch roller and flywheel and w&f improves , put it back in an w&f gets worse
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair You don't know the exact condition of the motors after all the years, some develop dead spots, some need some cleaning, lubrication, some belts maybe out of specs. Dual capstan system were designed to work together, taking one out proves nothing, because the motor was designed to drive both flywheels, connected with a belt. Belt could be out of specs, maybe back-tension is incorrect, maybe there is some friction somewhere, maybe the pinch rollers have some wear, I don't know, there could be many things. Those systems work well when they are well aligned. If not, they can do more harm than good. I had a JVC TD-521 which raised the tape from the erase head because not working properly.
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair Haven't read the threads and I am not a know-it-all, but those dual capstan system were designed with a logic in mind, to my knowledge it was implemented by Nakamichi, a well known brand, perfectionists. They must have known something.
@@phaenius they did know something ;-) but the extra flywheel , capstan and pinch roller wasnt there to improve the w&f over the single flywheel version , it was implemented on 3 head decks to improve tape path and prevent azimuth issues. teh sankyo transport was used by many manufactuers (among which nakamichi) but afaik only kenwood use the transport for their 2 head decks , everyone else used it for their 3 head decks and thus had the extra flywheel, capstan and pinchroller to ensure less tape path issues
Hi, mate! Nice video! 1100 is better regarding w&f from my experience. Maybe back tension is not correct or pinch rollers pressure is incorrect..etc... Cheers
backtension is the same for both decks , back tension setting (in the gear) is the same for both decks , pinch roller pressure seems the same but the 880 (95% of the ones i have seen during the 80s and 90s , so a few 100 at least) all outperformed the 1100. i know its anecdotal but with a lot of data ;-) ive never been able to get the 1100 down to the w&f levels where the 880 typically operates at
I have no idea on how to repair cassette decks or anything about wow & flutter or stuff like that. I've just been using cassettes since I was a kid (I'm 51) to listen to my music. I am completely lost watching these videos, except when you show how to clean heads & stuff. 😂 I've never seen any of the decks you've shown on here either, but they all have been very nice-looking decks! 💯 Thank you for doing what you're doing with these videos. 👍🏻
@@chrisnunya7171 as long as youre having fun i have reached what i set out to do 😎
Looks like I may be buying the KX-1100HX after all. The seller agreed on my price, now waiting for the eBay offer so I can accept it. Will keep you posted.
Thanks for the videos. I really enjoy watching them.
i hope you get the 1100 for a good price , it really is a solid machine and i am sure it wont disappoint
The Sankyo dual capstan is very tricky. There is so much that can go wrong and quality of for example the pinch rollers varied between brands even in the same mech
I worked on two H/K cd491 and after a lot of trying I got 0.05. Best results were with a webspareparts belt and !!original pinch rollers, despite the new ones feel more grippy.
A lot of small things have to be right some things I fought with:
-pinch roller contact timing, the right roller should turn first. Especially after replacing pinch rollers as the new ones are rarely exactly the right size
-the famous gap (see tapeheads forum) between the head carriage and the pinch roller should be there.
-The right pinch roller spring sometimes isn't strong enough any more. You see if you give some extra push on the right roller and wf decreases
-idler tire should not slip
-And again if possible clean the original pinch rollers thoroughly. New ones all doubled the W&F even with worn original ones (including the highly regarded fixyouraudio ones, I never had good luck with these pinch rollers)
But there was a nice suprise. Using the two decks and checking a month later, both show W&F around 0.035!! It seems sometimes the new belt and oil just need some time . .
I was using the ANT test tape for the W&F measurements. The blue HPR is terrible, his other tapes are great btw
Your explanation and how you demonstrate the difference between the two cassette decks makes a novice like me feel like an expert. Thank you.👍🏻😊
i am glad you are enjoying it !
Totally agree. I own both machines and i was always a little disappointed by the 1100. But the 880 has the best W/F in my entire collection.
Even better then my ZX-9 !
thank you ! that is my exact experience as well with the dual capstan Sankyo's
Well now you know how to fix them 😀
@@mihaischitcu1917 there really isnt anything to fix ? they perform within specs , one is just better than the other ;-)
Great experiment. Its a design trade off. Dual capstan tape stability. Or low W&F. Personally I'd take low W&F. The difference makes sense because you've got two rollers both interacting with the tape. And like you said you won't hear it, because ultimately both are good figures.
@@Seiskid thank you Sir ! I made this video to clarify my earlier statements, i hope I succeeded in that
Sankyo's slave flywheels are a hit or miss, with their zinc pest problems. I have 1 KX-9010 (same mech as KX1100) that does 0.04%, and my friend's 9010 can't get lower than 0.12% after a minute. Just lowering the supply side roller brings the W&F on both to 0.0230% (so you can still have the slave flywheel and the belt running, only disabling the supply roller arm), which are the same numbers as the single capstan 880HX and our two KX-5010. The slave flywheels just degrade, with the surface "bubbling", and they go out of balance. Obviously I've tried EVERYTHING, I've completely rebuild the mechanism 3 times, even lapped the flywheel to smooth the bumps - but there is no fix. Belts are original and in excellent shape, with other belts on the bad 9010 there is no difference, even with bad belts. My conclusion in my case is either the bearings are shot (which shouldn't be the case since both decks are almost new, very low mileage based on the heads), or the flywheel. In my particular case it's a combination of both, because I've tested the bad 9010 with the flywheel from my machine - W&F improved for a while to 0.089% (still bad). It's sad, really.
i am sad you are experiencing this , 0.12% truely is too high. one last thing you can try , but you have probably already done that , is try without the back tension belt ? these transports are quite sensitive to that. i will have a look at the supply flywheel next time and see how badly they are unbalanced , i do seem to recall though that the supply flywheel had these "bumps" as you call them from new , they were never "smooth" , and i wonder how badly they degrade over time or if its a red herring . i'll post an update if i find more ? ps i just saw a hifirulezzz video where he runs into the same issues and i suggested deactivating the pinchroller (take pressure off) and take the back tension belt off to diagnose the issue some more
Just if you like to do an experiment: try to push the right pinchroller up a bit, because you get pretty mediocre W&F without the left flywheel too, something is off there. If it improves you can try shorten the spring. I did on one of my cd491s
If the right roller doesn't has enough grip it makes it worse with the left flywheel inserted
Can be that Kenwood just used worse rollers/flywheels/feedback circuitry as H/K or the naks though, it's just really high compared to the specs. Something has to be off or detoriated
Btw I like your channel! Great work
I agree the 1100 can be improved, but that wasnt what i set out to do , if i have time i’ll have another go at it and see how good we can get the 1100
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair btw I think your point of the video is valid. There are quite a bit of examples of what you found out. I also recommended new people to cassettes to buy a technics direct drive or at least a good single capstan just because the simplicity and good W&F figures. Not that dual capstan is worthless but it's just so much more complicated to maintain.
@@bertheeren7992 i agree on the w&f side, 3 heads are better in other things though so they both have their pro's and con's
Two capstans sounds impressing but maybe only good for sales and / or auto reverse decks. You should see the same with auto reverse decks. Nice comparison thanks
actually in auto reverse decks the 2 capstans can be better as they rotate in different directions helping the overall stability .
Other thought: dual capstan was back in the day not really to lower W&F I think. It was more about giving the tape a stable tension between the rollers to isolate the shell from the mechanism and improve tape/head contact (naks used pad lifters)
Other think is that speed drift is less as the tension varied less when the tape shifts from left to the right spool. BUT this is fixed in the later quartz locked single capstans.
I believe you agree with my conclusions 😊
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair true!
Fantastic demonstration 👆
thank you for your kind words !
He proved his point, intetesting..
On any particular deck, I just record a 1Khz tone and measure its wow and flutter on playback.
@@georgebliss964 most w&f measuring devices are calibrated to 3000 or 3150Hz , i have never used 1000Hz personally but it might work as well , i’ll do a test and see if the numbers come out the same
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair Thanks for reminding me.
I now remember that it wasn't 1000Hz that I used, rather 3000 which was the requirement of the free software I downloaded from the internet.
@@georgebliss964 that is more inline with my own experience ;-) but i am still going to try the 1000Hz and have a quick look
Schönes Video dieses Kassettendeck besitze ich auch und sehr zufrieden top Gerät
diese zwei sind (mit die 9010 & 9050) das beste das kenwood produziert hatte
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair Vielen dank für die Antwort und sogar auf deutsch :-)
@@igendwoinmitteldeutschland ich bin eine "kasekopf" und spreche auch ein bischen Deutsch ;-)
I had problem with stability in one of my walkmans - (no reverse - one capstain). Problem was so big that I had to do some research on it. I must admit that in my opinion I failed because I had no spare el motor for tape drive so I could not get confirmation of my suspicion. All I can say is that with fresh batteries it did not happen. Supppose with used could be lower speed but unusualy it started to wave.
I suspected that motor somehow lost a bit of power. . . Because it looked like stabilization of rotations parameters were erretic due to else to belt elastictity or not matching the constans of timing for wheel. Whole mechanic with motor together was tending to get into low mechanical resonance.
.. This may be something to do with these two cases - as you mentioned they used the same motor for two very different driven masses having double different inertia . Surely stabilization of less mass is much quiceker than double mass of two of wheels and short time srability suppose to be lowered . - errors which must be counter acted by motor have double energy with which motor must fight back .Difference between those two are small enough that it did not exceded even high quuality low margins which they achieved already with one capstain . For some reasons they wanted to make this solution - may be hard competition forced to do it? I am not specialist and have no clue what is realy the advantage of double capstains for user when one makes satisfactory listening.
you thow out some good hypothesis , might be the right direction to (re-)search
well its you deck issue not the model. this is sankyo transport and there well know from worn capstans bearings. you single capstan deck was use very little so has low w&f but your dual capstan was used a lot with worn bearings. this is not only kenwood but every deck with sankyo transport like yamaha, denon, nakamich, teac, akai etc. its related yo your bad transport but not deck. you can easly check it. if the pastan is moving a bit up and down means your capstan bearings are worn. what you need to do is to mahe new bearings for capstan plus you need to check capstan stability, the same like a wheel in a car, if your wheel is not simetrical in wage then cur will not be stable. this is mechanical transport and most of people are thinking that changing belt is restoration but is not. see what you need to do in a carr and whats getting brocken. its the same here. the capstans are heavy and bearings are fragile. so your conclution is wrong. you have simply worn bad transport.
yamaha used the same transport but not with the DD motor , and they didnt use it for their 2 head models either with the DD motor , the same for nakamichi , teac , akai etc . afaik they all used the sankyo for their 3 heads with double flywheel , afaik no other manufacturer used the single DD model for their 2 heads. regarding the age and run time, they both have more or less the same run hours
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair i think you dont understand. the problem is bearing and it doesnt matter if is dd or not. all sankyo mechanism hjas bearing issue. the dual capstan deck are always better as i say again its your deck problem with worn capstan bearings and it doesnt mattaer what you say. comparing worn bearings to non worn bearings always will be a differences. those transports are very good but they need new bearings for cpastans. mine yamaha Kx-1200 with same transport (just no dd) has 0.03 w&f so if you could have mine bearings from mine yamaha for your kenwood it would be 0.02. as i say again its not deck but your used worn bearings. every duble capstan with a time has this issue as belt between capstans push them towors eatch other as a result the bearing gets worn. single capstan and dd desnt have this problem so you will find more single dd in better w&f. they just need new bearings.
@@Johny666EU your yamaha (and my own yamaha ua-cam.com/video/8WycxTmWi5I/v-deo.html ) kx-1200 perform great , w&f typically around 0.025-0.03% , however the kenwood kx-880 with the same sankyo transport with single flywheel - capstan performs much better (mechanically) than any dual flywheel - capstan deck with the sankyo transport from any other manufacturer . that doesnt mean the dual flywheel sankyo is bad, but the single flywheel sankyo just has better w&f than any other dual flywheel sankyo
@@Johny666EU ps i can do the same with my kx-1200 and show that the w&f improves from where it is now (0.025-0.03%) and improve the w&f with a measurable difference by taking the 2nd flywheel out , it will be more difficult as the motor is located differently and the belt will have to be a custom belt as it has no DD motor but it can be done , but it will just be a repetitive video . I’d rather take a NAK or other brand with the DD motor and 3 heads and do a before and after measurements
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair what you talking about? i told you already, you have brocken bearings and you stil the same. where is your logic and common sense? maybe yopu need really some experience? have you ever seen those deck as brand new? do you think people doesnt have over 35 years experience in decks? you comparing old, heavly used with brocken bearings devices and you based you logic on brocken machanisms. there are not new so what you want to compare? brocken vs brocken? come on man?
I'd still choose the 1100HX. It has a sendust erase head if I am not mistaken. Plus, three heads are a big plus 😉
thats a totally valid choice , i made the video to clarify my remark and as i said i doubt any normal person would hear the difference
I do not doubt the KX-880 have lower wow&flutter than the KX-1100.
But there seems to be some 3 head double capstan decks that have similar low w&f as the KX-880HX.
ua-cam.com/video/c-My54jOzxk/v-deo.html
~0.015%
ua-cam.com/video/QQZmzeZNJOM/v-deo.html
~0.025%
But to your defense this Kenwood KX-5010 (successor to the KX-880HX) might just beat them all so maybe the KX-880HX has the lowest w&f after all (this one used a proper w&f calibration cassette).
ua-cam.com/video/HA9H01vup8w/v-deo.html
~0.012%
The double capstan was introduced to stretch (hold) the tape against the heads. Not to reduce w&f.
They say this will reduce the modulation noise. I guess they mean signal changes caused by the tape fluctuating at different distances above the playhead.
On a 2 head this is less or not necessary with a quality cassette since the play/rec head is centered like the cassette spring and felt pad.
Nakamichi has made a model with a cassette pad lifter, but I do not know more about it, but they solved this issue in another way on that one maybe.
The double capstan added w&f is often so low so it doesn't really matter just as you say you will not be hear it.
Typically you can hear w&f ~0.1% according to what i have read (but I have no proof of that).
So I agree with you an that too.
As cost cutting came in the 1990s and the CD players was getting cheaper I guess nobody bothered making w&f below 0.05% anymore since you can not hear it anyways?
Thank you for showing us all what the KX-880 can do. It really seems to have superb w&f.
@@alexanderregamey thank you , great info and comments here
8:17. THE SECOND FLYWHEEL ADDS TAPE TENTION. WITHOUT FLYWHEEL YOU NEED ERASE HEAD DRAG PIN TO ADD TAPE TENTION. ZERO TAPE TENTION IT WILL NOT RECORD AT ALL
i have both and working perfect ,one is the evolution of the other, but the best ?i´m not sure
i almost forgot i saw a 880 being sold on ebay for 80€ and bought it, my surprise ,instead of a parts deck i put it to use ,never understood why was so cheap while the dragon that is bellow by a lot in quality is being sold not new for 5.000€ and i sold mine for 100€ in 2006, i stoped it in August of 1983 and never thought of it again, but have others from nakamichi my favorite was the zx-9 but when i bought the cassette deck 1 ,was the best of all maybe the DR-1 is also good but never had the pleassure of using it, my older son has one
@@RUfromthe40s these where released at the same time period , one more expensive than the other because of the 3 heads
Using a tape recorded on a particular deck to measure that same deck's W&F is very, very wrong. Any periodic fluctuations such as those caused by eccentric capstans or pinchrollers or out-of-balance flywheels or belts will either cancel or enforce each other out depending on how the phase/position of the "offending" part aligns between recording and playback. This way you can make a seriously "wow-ing" deck with a bent capstan measure perfectly on its own recording. You should not divide by 2, but with anything between 0 and 2. The only way to get a somewhat meaningful figure with this setup is to average several individual measurements. That's the reason why precision pre-recorded W&F measuring tapes exist.
please re-read and analyze what you just wrote ?
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair I'm sorry, is my English that bad? I wrote that measuring W&F using a tape recorded on the same unit is wrong and explained why. Same as calling a deck's azimuth aligned if it matches the tape it has just recorded.
@@mihaischitcu1917 using a tape recorded on a machine and then play back to measure W&F on that machine gives you a very meaningful data point , not an absolutely reference point but a very meaningful data point. if i record a tape on a deck and with playing back that tape it gives me 0.02% w&f i am "done" because a reference w&f tape should give me less w&f , typically half assuming the tape was recorded with 0% w&f , but i am "done" because even on my own recorded tape the w&f is within specs. now taking that 0.02% tape to another deck and that deck gives me 0.06% w&f that deck is 3x "worse" mechanically vs the original recording deck .furthermore it is highly unlikely (not 0 but highly unlikely) that parts rotating in the same direction "cancel out" each other , increasing the w&f is more likely , and that is exactly what i am showing here by taking out the parts that increase w&f and it proves my point that transports with more parts cause higher w&f , taking those parts out the w&f drops measurably
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair No, I am sorry but you are wrong. It's the same as using a self-recorded tape to verify tape running speed. And either way, all you would have proven is that your 1100 is in worse condition than your 880, particularly the belt and supply capstan / flywheel.
@@mihaischitcu1917 you can use a self recored 3000kHz tape depending what you are using the tape for. you cannot use it for setting correct speed on any deck but you *can* use it to determine speed differences in percentages between decks and i have proven exactly what i set out to prove , and that is that the 1100 performs better when you take out the "extra stuff" , and i can prove it over and over again with decks using the same transport with 2 flywheels. take any deck that uses the sankyo with 2 flywheels, take the flywheel out, remove the belt and inactivate the pinchroller and w&f will improve
Your KX-1100 seems to be way out of specs in terms of w&f. While your 880 isn't. According to hifiengine, 1100g shall be within 0.025%, 880g shall be within 0.027%.
maybe its out of spec , but why does the w&f improve by a good measurable margin when i make it a single capstan transport ? pinchroller is good , belt is original and capstan bearings were properly cleaned and lubricated , i know what the specs are / should be and both are within the rated specs as i am using a simple pre-recorded tape which effectively doubles the w&f when played back , so even with the higher w&f figures measured (0.05%) the 1100 is within spec but worse than the 880. anfd this is the same on the many 100s of 880s and 1100s i have handled , serviced and repaired
@@yuriykorotkevych8838 ps i dont know where hifiengine gets its info from but i just checked the original catalog and service manuals and they both state 0.025% for both , no 0.027 ?
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repairdual capstans are way more complicated and can be thrown off way easier than a single capstan drive. The difference in capstan diameters for tape tension along the head can also influence W&F, as well as the state the heads are in. Ironically, the KX-5010 vs. KX-9010 comparison is a similar thing.
Belt quality plays a huge role. Pinch rollers as well. A pinch roller with play on the axle or irregular rotation will throw W&F off as well.
I know repair guys who will prefer single capstans any time of the day because they are also much easier on the tape itself.
@@svenschwingel8632 ,thank you for your comment , the 5010 uses the same transport as the 880 , the 9010 uses the same transport as the 1100 , so you will most likely experience the same w&f differences as well with the 5010 better than the 9010 ;-)
i bought the most expensive model of walkman in 84, this in a travel with some north american friends, in Bagda, Iraque they couldn´t shut up about the most visionary leader of an Arab country ,their friend Saddam Hussein, funny isn´t it
HI THERE THAT S WHY CLOSED LOOP CAPFSTAIN MUST BE LARGER MOTOR,THAT S THE SAME AS SONY TCK 71 AN D 61 IS BETTER LOW AND FLUTTER!JUST BECAUSE THE SAME BSL MOTOR USED!
@@cseresznyessandor237 that is very possible ! I am not familiar with these sony models but it could very well be the same
I'm sorry, but this proves nothing. First of all you can't compare the motors or the belts in those units, they have wear and tear and second, dual-capstan machines were not designed to work with supply flywheel/capstan disabled.
@@phaenius now i am curious , why cant i compare the 2 ? They literally have the same motor and i take all the ‘extra stuff’ out to show the ‘extra stuff’ causes more wow and flutter , out with the belt , pinch roller and flywheel and w&f improves , put it back in an w&f gets worse
@@phaenius ps i just looked , there’s even some threads on tapeheads that confirm my findings ?
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair You don't know the exact condition of the motors after all the years, some develop dead spots, some need some cleaning, lubrication, some belts maybe out of specs. Dual capstan system were designed to work together, taking one out proves nothing, because the motor was designed to drive both flywheels, connected with a belt. Belt could be out of specs, maybe back-tension is incorrect, maybe there is some friction somewhere, maybe the pinch rollers have some wear, I don't know, there could be many things. Those systems work well when they are well aligned. If not, they can do more harm than good. I had a JVC TD-521 which raised the tape from the erase head because not working properly.
@@cassettedeck-walkman-repair Haven't read the threads and I am not a know-it-all, but those dual capstan system were designed with a logic in mind, to my knowledge it was implemented by Nakamichi, a well known brand, perfectionists. They must have known something.
@@phaenius they did know something ;-) but the extra flywheel , capstan and pinch roller wasnt there to improve the w&f over the single flywheel version , it was implemented on 3 head decks to improve tape path and prevent azimuth issues. teh sankyo transport was used by many manufactuers (among which nakamichi) but afaik only kenwood use the transport for their 2 head decks , everyone else used it for their 3 head decks and thus had the extra flywheel, capstan and pinchroller to ensure less tape path issues
Hi, mate! Nice video! 1100 is better regarding w&f from my experience. Maybe back tension is not correct or pinch rollers pressure is incorrect..etc...
Cheers
backtension is the same for both decks , back tension setting (in the gear) is the same for both decks , pinch roller pressure seems the same but the 880 (95% of the ones i have seen during the 80s and 90s , so a few 100 at least) all outperformed the 1100. i know its anecdotal but with a lot of data ;-)
ive never been able to get the 1100 down to the w&f levels where the 880 typically operates at