I was expecting them to be actually squishy, but having essentially permanent 4+ invulns army wide is just....eugh. And 8 wounds base! The power creep on these guys is wild! The models are beautiful but daaaaang.
I've always like the Mandrakes in the lore and they're the Drukhari team I've been waiting for. These make a nice change from previous versions where they'd jump out the shadows and then do nothing.
This team seem to live or die depending on each meta's terrain. They depend on heavy terrain a lot. They are certainly going to be the strongest on ItD
in regards to the ploy that lets them move through terrain and ITD, the walls in ITD says: "Operatives cannot move over or through Wall terrain REGARDLESS of any other rules, other than as a result of the Accessible trait." that ploy got my panicking so i had to check
@@CanYouRollaCrit the wording is the same as on the Breacha Boy, and he cannot go through the ITD walls. (Except the breacha also has the 1-inch thickness condition)
I just found out that on Into the Dark you only measure count and pillars and wall ends for the purposes of being 1" from heavy! In the Core Rules FAQ Page 7, bottom right corner of the page: Q: In Killzone: Gallowdark, how do you resolve rules that require an operative to be within a certain distance of Heavy terrain? A: Resolve this by only using pillars and wall ends (excluding wall ends for Hatchways), and Heavy terrain from a Killzone: Gallowdark supplement (e.g. Ancient Apparatus).
@@CanYouRollaCrit I believe there are pictures clearly indicating which pieces are considered pillars in the Into the Dark supplement if I'm not mistaken? The pillars look to be any rectangular connecting piece. Which would still give a lot of places to go just not the flat parts of the wall by the looks of it.
Looks like a very juicy Kill Team even though models look bit all the same... Rules are interesting, and there is a tactical rock here 100% However, I doubt anyone will uninclude any of available unique operatives unless tired of same build...
Model and theme wise it looks like their shooting should have be restricted to 6” then maybe the double hand magic flame guy could have had unlimited like a sudo gunner.
@@CanYouRollaCrit I had to go check out 40K rules, weapons don’t seem anything special over there. With all their layered rules anyway, I think you’re right they could have atleast made their weapons simpler, If their was ever a time for name plates on minis it would have to be this team
I don't know if GW has different design teams working on different sets, but it really feels like it. If so, I wouldn't be surprised if these were the folks that designed Chalnath.
Well, they're broken all right :) easy tac ops scoring, crazy mobility, insane threat range, rather powerful both shooting and melee... We're having a tournament on april 21st, and at least one of the players is bringing Mandrakes. So we'll see how it goes. It might get messy, especially because we do not have Beta decima (maybe just one table).
I am going to play Mandrakes, although I mainly choose teams with a challenge, so am a bit worried about their strengths. But still feels like the team is a result of a google search; What would Butzhu want from a kill team. Although I feel I need to change my perception of them. Maybe not a finesse team with brutality, but a brutal team with finesse. Think about it, their generic warriors comes with a super bolter, Powersword and a possible charge threat range of 13". I think when people get used to play against them, they can counteract some of their strengths. Haven't played them yet, so maybe still a bit early to call for a balance, but if/when it happens, I would like it to be disadvantages for not being in Shadows. And Wyrmblade spotlights should remove shadows 😂
The rules seem cool alright, they might not be that big of a problem since they are not very tanky and limited in numbers, but the models just look like the same Dark Eldar space Hobo differently posed.
I don't think this was discussed but I was chatting with some peeps over on the command point disord about the dirgemaw just after the warhammer plus battle report came out. interested to see if there's any clarification into how the stun critical ability on its ranged ability interacts with the soulstrike ability. Stun from ranged weapons drops APL of models by one and saves from soulstrike weapons are based on a models APL value so APL 2 models would be effectively saving on 6s and APL 3 models on 5s. And would the stun take affect before the save rolls like say P1 works. And the Stun stays until the end of the turning point making all other attacks from soulstrike weapons even more powerful. Interested to see if that interpretation is legit. But this team feels pretty busted, maybe it was only play tested on into the dark. Maybe the same with the night lords. The mirror match is also gonna be super weird and pretty inevitable given they're pretty powerful with experienced player flying to this like a moth to a flame.
It should work excately that way... In the Rules it says that the Stun(and MW and so on) work in the Roll Atack Dice Step which is before the Roll Defense Dice Step.
They look really cool, but definitely a bit broken. I think if the Shadow Glyph and Spectral Essence equipment were Unique and their Baleblasts were just 6" range they'd be more reasonable, but we will see I suppose. If they do end up broken, I hope GW fixes it fast and we don't get 6 months of Mandrakes running over everyone.
I would think the "normal move" wording in the Shadow Passage ability still limits the distance a model can move.(Not making it board-wide and still following ITD rules) The advantage being that you could move past obstacles and operatives. Maybe it will say it in an FAQ
Your interpretation would require an errata, since there is a phrase "instead of moving you remove it form the killzone and set it back up" which kinda negates the need for move distance. For your interpretation to work there should be a wording "set up this operative within/wholly within [distance] of this operative starting position" or something like that.
@@CanYouRollaCrit What's even the point of playing farstalkers at this point. They won't even be the best at scoring tac ops anymore compared to these guys
There goes hoping that these guys wouldn't be op. Well on the bright side atleast it's only these guys that are op since nemesis claw quite balanced id say
About the shadow portal: Does that mean for 1 apl, they could use shadow passage and can be placed anywhere within 2 inches of the portal regardless of being within shadow as long as it would not be engaged with enemy models. Correct?
The Mandrakes rules look pretty strong. I wonder how they gonna perform on Bheta-Decima though. Hey John changing the subject I have a question regarding "super conceal" rule. Some folks say that the "super conceal" works against "Indirect" weapons, but does it work against 2" (1 circle) ? Will the enemy operative gonna be able to shoot an operative with super conceal rule within 2''? Or the only way to attack a super concealed operative is in mele?
@@sky_tech_23 Thanks :) Sorry I misunderstood super conceal rule. Because it says that the operative is in conceal regardless of any other rules. So I thought that, Blast, Indirect and shooting withing white circle will not work against super conceal. But as John said and you, super conceal doesn't work against those rules. So basically super conceal works only against enemy operatives on the Vantage points, that's all, nothing more, right?
@@araistel1980 it also negates rules where the following is present "treat this operative as if it has an engage order", the examples are vantage point, VetG spotter, Corsairs bird and pathfinders markerlights.
Does Games Workshop play test their rules at all ? I know not all teams can be equal but things like Fellgors and now mandrakes basically mean there is a very high chance you just automatically lose a tournament or competition because your team cannot stop stuff like this. I suppose on the bright side stuff like the Hand of the Archons stinger pistol and other things that ignore invulnerable saves are quite good against them 🤷♂️
This team sounds broken AF. And the fact that it's launched right at the start of the balance dataslate means it's gonna be a rough 3 months out at tournaments.
wow, did Harlequins even need a nerf if something this hot just ignores all their saves? pretty excited to throw the eldar and Deathwatch Intercession teams ive been painting over the last year up onto ebay, because theres basically no reason to use them when these two teams exist
Ive been playing kill team since the release exclusively 4 custodes. Just 4 custodes.. no SoS. I think it would be fair if they gave the 4 dudes their 4apl back. Thats all just give the 4 dudes theie 4apl back notging else more
Kommandos player would kill for this type of mobility, charge from conceal is kind of big but add dash n charge on opponent turn is holy shit, turns off ranged operatives
Way to much mobility, way to powerful equipment, extremely great melee and shooting while not lethal its basically unblockable with the weird apl save condition... add in the interupt abilities and this team is just way to feels bad. People who like them will try and explain how "its not that bad" but objectively this team is OP.
They gave them everything. The ability are super cool, but it look like it a custom made team by a young boy who want to have the most Brocken team ever
Fellgor, Chaos Cults, and to a lesser degree Pathfinders were absolutely bonkers broken on release. I mean they're still pretty broken but they were moreso on release too.
he hates melee teams... don't forget they only have a 6+ save which is basically worthless and 8-9 wounds. if they leave shadow for a split second or get flank they die to a gust of wind.. very glass cannon kill team and needs a lot defensive maintenance.. shooting weapons should probably be nerfed to 6inches instead of unlimited..
![True Size of a Space Marine Chapter [999.M41] (Part 1) 3D Documentary](/img/n.gif)
I was expecting them to be actually squishy, but having essentially permanent 4+ invulns army wide is just....eugh. And 8 wounds base! The power creep on these guys is wild! The models are beautiful but daaaaang.
Yeah it's pretty wild
Voidscarred Corsairs are 8 wounds base.
@@ObsceneSuperMattAll elves are, for that matter.
Yeah, but they have 4+ regular saves.@@ObsceneSuperMatt
@@jackgebhardt2932 just like Harlequins. And it kinda fits for these, as they are kinda-demonic, and demons have invuln saves
Absolutely brutal against Hearthkyn especially the save based on AP means the 3+ save is now just 5+.
Yeah super punishing vs them ):
I've always like the Mandrakes in the lore and they're the Drukhari team I've been waiting for. These make a nice change from previous versions where they'd jump out the shadows and then do nothing.
This team seem to live or die depending on each meta's terrain. They depend on heavy terrain a lot. They are certainly going to be the strongest on ItD
Yeah, even most open boards they'll do well on
in regards to the ploy that lets them move through terrain and ITD, the walls in ITD says:
"Operatives cannot move over or through Wall terrain REGARDLESS of any other rules, other than as a result of the Accessible trait."
that ploy got my panicking so i had to check
Yeah but the wording is slightly different here, just needs a clarification as it's a poorly worded ploy
@@CanYouRollaCrit the wording is the same as on the Breacha Boy, and he cannot go through the ITD walls. (Except the breacha also has the 1-inch thickness condition)
Though from a lore point of view they should be able to appear anywhere, including inside a Titan cockpit!😂
Haircut between videos 👀
Sharp 👀
Those Mandrakes sure are sneaky…
I just found out that on Into the Dark you only measure count and pillars and wall ends for the purposes of being 1" from heavy!
In the Core Rules FAQ Page 7, bottom right corner of the page:
Q: In Killzone: Gallowdark, how do you resolve rules that require an
operative to be within a certain distance of Heavy terrain?
A: Resolve this by only using pillars and wall ends (excluding wall
ends for Hatchways), and Heavy terrain from a Killzone: Gallowdark
supplement (e.g. Ancient Apparatus).
So wait. What is a wall then? Light terrain?
It does help but depends on how you agree which pillars to measure from
@@CanYouRollaCrit I believe there are pictures clearly indicating which pieces are considered pillars in the Into the Dark supplement if I'm not mistaken? The pillars look to be any rectangular connecting piece. Which would still give a lot of places to go just not the flat parts of the wall by the looks of it.
Looks like a very juicy Kill Team even though models look bit all the same... Rules are interesting, and there is a tactical rock here 100%
However, I doubt anyone will uninclude any of available unique operatives unless tired of same build...
Very juicy indeed 👀
Omg, each of these operatives has a short novel worth of rules! What the heck!!!
Just some minor reading every turn
@@CanYouRollaCrit some people I play with can't get intercession straight! Imagine that! ;)
Model and theme wise it looks like their shooting should have be restricted to 6” then maybe the double hand magic flame guy could have had unlimited like a sudo gunner.
Nah they have similar range in 40k. Just making them normal shooting attacks with no cover and stun would have been fine
@@CanYouRollaCrit I had to go check out 40K rules, weapons don’t seem anything special over there.
With all their layered rules anyway, I think you’re right they could have atleast made their weapons simpler,
If their was ever a time for name plates on minis it would have to be this team
I don't know if GW has different design teams working on different sets, but it really feels like it. If so, I wouldn't be surprised if these were the folks that designed Chalnath.
Well, they're broken all right :) easy tac ops scoring, crazy mobility, insane threat range, rather powerful both shooting and melee...
We're having a tournament on april 21st, and at least one of the players is bringing Mandrakes. So we'll see how it goes. It might get messy, especially because we do not have Beta decima (maybe just one table).
Yeah, they're very broken on ITD
As a drukhari player I'm absolutely pumped. Vengeance for GW treating us like red-haired step-childs for so long.
To an extent 😅
I am going to play Mandrakes, although I mainly choose teams with a challenge, so am a bit worried about their strengths. But still feels like the team is a result of a google search; What would Butzhu want from a kill team.
Although I feel I need to change my perception of them. Maybe not a finesse team with brutality, but a brutal team with finesse. Think about it, their generic warriors comes with a super bolter, Powersword and a possible charge threat range of 13".
I think when people get used to play against them, they can counteract some of their strengths.
Haven't played them yet, so maybe still a bit early to call for a balance, but if/when it happens, I would like it to be disadvantages for not being in Shadows.
And Wyrmblade spotlights should remove shadows 😂
"I'm sure its all fineeee"
It's fineeeee
The rules seem cool alright, they might not be that big of a problem since they are not very tanky and limited in numbers, but the models just look like the same Dark Eldar space Hobo differently posed.
I think they'll dominate in top player hands
@@CanYouRollaCrit Can you name me one team which would not dominate in hands of top player good sire?
@@filipmaly6603 Cadre Mercenary.
❤Nice video
Thanks 🤗
I love the models and I’m excited to play around with teleportation shenanigans. 6+ saves is rough though
They have a 5+ invulnerable save which turns to 4+ "In the Shadows," so their DF is slightly better than most elves.
Yeah not that fragile with their invuns
I don't think this was discussed but I was chatting with some peeps over on the command point disord about the dirgemaw just after the warhammer plus battle report came out. interested to see if there's any clarification into how the stun critical ability on its ranged ability interacts with the soulstrike ability. Stun from ranged weapons drops APL of models by one and saves from soulstrike weapons are based on a models APL value so APL 2 models would be effectively saving on 6s and APL 3 models on 5s. And would the stun take affect before the save rolls like say P1 works. And the Stun stays until the end of the turning point making all other attacks from soulstrike weapons even more powerful.
Interested to see if that interpretation is legit. But this team feels pretty busted, maybe it was only play tested on into the dark. Maybe the same with the night lords. The mirror match is also gonna be super weird and pretty inevitable given they're pretty powerful with experienced player flying to this like a moth to a flame.
It should work excately that way... In the Rules it says that the Stun(and MW and so on) work in the Roll Atack Dice Step which is before the Roll Defense Dice Step.
They look really cool, but definitely a bit broken. I think if the Shadow Glyph and Spectral Essence equipment were Unique and their Baleblasts were just 6" range they'd be more reasonable, but we will see I suppose. If they do end up broken, I hope GW fixes it fast and we don't get 6 months of Mandrakes running over everyone.
Yeah it will be interesting to see how they play out
They are going to be very challenging
Yup!
I would think the "normal move" wording in the Shadow Passage ability still limits the distance a model can move.(Not making it board-wide and still following ITD rules) The advantage being that you could move past obstacles and operatives. Maybe it will say it in an FAQ
Your interpretation would require an errata, since there is a phrase "instead of moving you remove it form the killzone and set it back up" which kinda negates the need for move distance.
For your interpretation to work there should be a wording "set up this operative within/wholly within [distance] of this operative starting position" or something like that.
Yeah you don't move 6 inches, you teleport. It's pretty clear RAW
That's super powerful! 💪
Good thing they're only 2.5 apl
How do you even play blades of kahine into this lmao
You just lose lol
@@CanYouRollaCrit What's even the point of playing farstalkers at this point. They won't even be the best at scoring tac ops anymore compared to these guys
There goes hoping that these guys wouldn't be op. Well on the bright side atleast it's only these guys that are op since nemesis claw quite balanced id say
Nemesis claw are super strong as well imo 😅
About the shadow portal:
Does that mean for 1 apl, they could use shadow passage and can be placed anywhere within 2 inches of the portal regardless of being within shadow as long as it would not be engaged with enemy models. Correct?
No, still need to meet the requirements of Shadow Passage when using the portal
@@CanYouRollaCrit Thanks
The Mandrakes rules look pretty strong. I wonder how they gonna perform on Bheta-Decima though. Hey John changing the subject I have a question regarding "super conceal" rule. Some folks say that the "super conceal" works against "Indirect" weapons, but does it work against 2" (1 circle) ? Will the enemy operative gonna be able to shoot an operative with super conceal rule within 2''? Or the only way to attack a super concealed operative is in mele?
Super conceal doesn't work vs indirect or operatives within white
@@araistel1980 torrent no, you can't, if the shooting operative isn't within white of the target. Blast yes, if it's a subsequent attack.
@@sky_tech_23 Thanks :) Sorry I misunderstood super conceal rule. Because it says that the operative is in conceal regardless of any other rules. So I thought that, Blast, Indirect and shooting withing white circle will not work against super conceal. But as John said and you, super conceal doesn't work against those rules. So basically super conceal works only against enemy operatives on the Vantage points, that's all, nothing more, right?
@@araistel1980 it also negates rules where the following is present "treat this operative as if it has an engage order", the examples are vantage point, VetG spotter, Corsairs bird and pathfinders markerlights.
@@sky_tech_23 Thanks a lot :)
Does Games Workshop play test their rules at all ? I know not all teams can be equal but things like Fellgors and now mandrakes basically mean there is a very high chance you just automatically lose a tournament or competition because your team cannot stop stuff like this. I suppose on the bright side stuff like the Hand of the Archons stinger pistol and other things that ignore invulnerable saves are quite good against them 🤷♂️
They do playtest but yeah 😅
This stinks of someone from corporate worried about sales telling the balance team to make the new models nuts to force sales
Nah GW never do that I'm afraid
For Into the Dark they can just change how Shadows behave there.. just say there are lights everywhere and therefore the real dark is harder to get
Yeah but they should have been aware before launch
I am assuming soulstrike still counts as a shooting attack and you can retain cover against it right?
Yup!
This team sounds broken AF. And the fact that it's launched right at the start of the balance dataslate means it's gonna be a rough 3 months out at tournaments.
Yupppp, especially on ITD
wow, did Harlequins even need a nerf if something this hot just ignores all their saves?
pretty excited to throw the eldar and Deathwatch Intercession teams ive been painting over the last year up onto ebay, because theres basically no reason to use them when these two teams exist
Well since Harlies are APL3, they have mathematically the same save.
Yeah Quins still have a chance
Custodes won't love the basically ap-2 bolter all accross the board. 😅
Poor stodes
Don't forget that your saving off your APL instead of your +2s as well. Doesn't matter for most elite teams but yea...
I think they have an ability to reduce all, did I see that correctly ? Even stronger with the -2AP
ENGINEER MAINS RISE UP
TELEPORTER DOWN
Ive been playing kill team since the release exclusively 4 custodes. Just 4 custodes.. no SoS.
I think it would be fair if they gave the 4 dudes their 4apl back. Thats all just give the 4 dudes theie 4apl back notging else more
Don't think it will happen sadly
These ranged attacks are effectively 2AP against Hearthkyn lol
Yeah rip hearthkyn vs them
Why? i dont understand
My 40k brain kicked in and calculated based on that so it's not as bad as an AP2. But it's pretty damned bad.
The maths on damage output is worse than an AP2 but better than AP1.
What is the base size?
All 28mm (:
Kommandos player would kill for this type of mobility, charge from conceal is kind of big but add dash n charge on opponent turn is holy shit, turns off ranged operatives
Yeah it's pretty wild
So is the entirety of ITD just in Shadow then? Wtf is this team
It's all shadow now
is this true? ITD is all shadow?
Way to much mobility, way to powerful equipment, extremely great melee and shooting while not lethal its basically unblockable with the weird apl save condition... add in the interupt abilities and this team is just way to feels bad. People who like them will try and explain how "its not that bad" but objectively this team is OP.
Yeah it's a very feels bad team
They gave them everything. The ability are super cool, but it look like it a custom made team by a young boy who want to have the most Brocken team ever
I mean what if they just keep rolling 1 and 2 on dice? In that case they seems to be balance...
I really dont like the APL save mechanic, it just seems unnecessary.
Yeah I agree
Hmmm, not as satisfied as with the Nightlords. This feels like League of Legends tier power-creep and movement…
Yeah it's quite wild
Yeah, that's certainly some 200-years game design.
Has a team come out od the gate this busted?
Fellgor, Chaos Cults, and to a lesser degree Pathfinders were absolutely bonkers broken on release.
I mean they're still pretty broken but they were moreso on release too.
Fellgor etc
You will have fun playing these if you can identify your operatives 😂
Guess who 🤣
he hates melee teams... don't forget they only have a 6+ save which is basically worthless and 8-9 wounds. if they leave shadow for a split second or get flank they die to a gust of wind.. very glass cannon kill team and needs a lot defensive maintenance.. shooting weapons should probably be nerfed to 6inches instead of unlimited..
5++ which is a 4++ in shadow, getting flanked doesn't remove that
They're 24 inches in 40k for shooting