Gvad, Thank you, I’m always amazed by how much wisdom you pack into these videos. Very privileged to have this information free of charge - i can not wait for the 🐶🤺
So this is the F4 at March Field Museum which I have been going to since I was about 7. I am 45 now but when I was a kid and rolled this thing in back in 93 they let me sit in it and play around as my grandfather (Who was a retired Chief Master Sargent in the USAF) lived locally at what was "Sun City" at the time and knew all the guys who ran that little (At the time little anyway) museum. It really meant a lot to me that they included this Livery and used this Phantom to develop this module. If anyone reading this is ever in So-Cal I HIGHLY recommend seeing this museum. It has an INCREDIBLE display of aircraft and bot of cool movie and WWII memorabilia as well plus Sabu.
17 is a Gen 1 plane, quick and can turn but only when inside the envelope, you get to the edge and MiG17 is tumbling. There are 5 or 6 different types of stalls as opposed to 1 wing roll in the F-4. There are no dampeners, flight computers to help you. One moment you're flying next moment departing. If you look at an airshow, ask yourself why arent they doing edge stuff with the 17, just a turn and fast pass, theres a reason. So be ready 🫡
The video I was waiting for! Looking forward to Pt. 2 (and hopefully a Top Gun series!) Was watching a few interviews with F-4 pilots and they also mentioned "you fly it by AoA, not airspeed". Why is AoA calculated and displayed in units and not simply degrees? Great video!
Ohhh we just flew the part 2, with a back seater. It was awesome. AOA is constant, thats what you use for the approach, speed changes for that AOA so you dont have to figure out your weight, then your approach speed... AOA there it is. I have no idea why they use units. 30 units in this case is 18 AOA, point where F-4 (and a lot of older planes stall).
4:47 what happens might be: High AOA, stick to the left: right wing's aileron goes down, left wing's spoiler goes up. The right wing creates more lift (aileron acting similar to a flap) but also (much) more drag than the spoiler on the left wing, which will cause some drag and lower the lift of the left wing. Overall, this makes the aircraft yawing to the right, increasing the airflow speed over the left wing, producing more lift and causing the roll to the right. If using the rudder this will also cause yaw to the right with increase airflow speed over the left wing and reduced airflow speed over the right wing, causing the intended "roll right".
I was wondering the same about high-speed stalls. I remember watching a video of a Vietnam vet saying he departed at over 300 knots in the aircraft switched ends.
That was an F-4J cross control stall (Hartmann maneuver in a jet plane), F-4E was more stable due to longer slats, and Im not sure if it could do a cross control stall
I think the FM is really good for a fresh release. HB modules have the best flight models imo, and knowing them the Phantom is only going to get tweaked and improved as time goes on
I guess I am not the only one who first goes to MCAS to test out the flight model on a new release. I was expecting a flight model that was a lot more difficult at low speeds and I found the F-4E to be quite benign overall. The stories I had heard led me to believe the Phantom could bite you and be tricky and I have not found this to be the case. No matter how hard I try to stall the aircraft, the worst I can get is a 180 degree roll that then ... just ends ... and the aircraft reverses its roll and levels out even when I try to hold it in a stall condition. I had to really work at it to get into a flat spin and normal spins beyond one revolution I haven't manage to achieve at all. The most I can get is a half roll and then it just ... levels out. I have never flown an F-4E so I can't really comment about the accuracy of the flight model but to me a Cessna 172 is easier to stall and spin than the HB F-4E module is at this point. Overall though, I am really enjoying the module and, as you demonstrated, the flight model in other regards is very good.
Thanks for the demonstration of the flight dynamics. I heard an interview from a US Navy F-4 pilot. From his experience, the F-4B, C, D J, S and N could get their noses on a target quicker because they did not have that long nose and weight up front that the F-4E, F and G had. I wonder, will HB bring out The US Navy and Marine F-4, and the earlier C and D models of the Phantom?
@@Galf506 I dont blame them, 2+ yrs of work and we still have a few months to go, and nothing except long days and spending a lot of money to show for it yet. Then some idi*t like me says ohhh this part is not quite right 😓😓😓. I'll buy it just cause I know how much went into it
@@FSX404 oh you're no idiot, finding issues in the module helps everyone, HB included. The thing with the Navy versions is that it will have a different radar and plenty different elements so they can't just offer it as a version like the F-14A afaik, but I bet there will be a sizeable discount for F-4E owners
So according to your analysis, the Phantom flight model is one of the best in dcs for jets? I was waiting for your analysis to decide to buy the module. What interests me most is the fidelity of the flight model. I don't usually fly jets, I like piston airplanes. I want to buy my first jet and I am looking for the one that has the most realistic and challenging flight model. The mig 17 from red star simulation is another one that I am interested in since they claim that they pay special attention to the flight model. Based on your experience, which one would you recommend?
FM is accurate where it matters, and decent at the edges, most cases which wont impact combat. Also, this FM has more features than other modules so far. No module is perfect, it can never be, so this is as good as May 2024 DCS gets. After having said this I hope it makes it easier to decide. MiG17 is a different animal FM wise, this is HB time so I wont talk about the 17 just yet.
MiG-17 does have more detailed and more accurate FM than the F-4E, bigger FM development envelope and a bit more plane feedback (talking back to a pilot), but they are completely different planes. 17 is a dream to fly in the envelope, but unforgiving out of it. F-4 is a speed demon.
Any idea the ETA on the MiG-17? Even though this is a late model F-4, it will still be interesting to recreate the classic duel of speed vs maneuverability.
We'll make that video soon, I already posted a small snipit on FB. As far as when it will release, thats still not set yet, I wish I had more info to pass.
i have many DCS modules and with 3 i have trouble with trim to level flight and center stick ! The F4 is one of them. when i do trim nose down or up i cant see the elevator moving outside !? In F14 it works well for me; they move. In F4 i always have to push the stick a lot forward to fly level which sucks a bit because my stick has a center force and it doe´nt feel right...not trimmed out ! Pls make a short vid how to trim that plane level in flight and stick centered.
taking off loaded.. that wing rock.. are you flying with STABAUG off? I've never had that happen with 24 500lb bombs. Just curious. I've been taking off on by the numbers as well
@@FSX404 Later on you mention the dampening when working on slow speed stall behavior, which leads me to believe you have them on. The three two way toggles directly behind the L/R Engine Master switches. If you have them on, I may be being a little more timid on my inputs when loaded down for forestry work.
Israeli IAF F-4E, and these guys were top of the line fighterpilots. Its why video took a week, I wanted to confirm this specific point. He also said that if you kept pulling and pulling while in a autoroll you'll end up in a spin 100% of the time, and that wasnt coded but I didnt mention it in the video. B, C and J are a different animal thats even more notorious than E, which is quite milder than others.
I have a crappy one actually, not max settings rather medium and low, 3080 card with 64GB and i9 I think. But aleady bought parts for the new PC that should be a little better, 4080+ etc.
@@FSX404 Oh wow, on the video things look pretty good tho. I’m really struggling to get some proper frame rate with the F4, specially when I turn on both the mirrors and the radar. It’s by far the most demanding module on DCS, specially on multiplayer. I’m not sure if that’s just how HB wants it to be or if it’s just a lack of optimization, but I’m not even using that much my CPU, it stays at 40-50% usage and my GPU won’t go above 70%, yet my frame rate is just not great even with medium-low settings… :/
Hi Gvad! Take a look at ground effect on HB F-4E, please. It looks like it's missing. And I don't like how HB Phantom departs but doesn't enter the spin, and how it reacts on aileron input on high AoA. Yes, you show right behaviour on your video, but try to exacerbate aileron movements and don't use rudder - aircraft in DCS will go into a comanded roll. And engine obviously needs improvements - it spools up instantly. I'm not sure how it should be, but HB Phantom pitch up on 1.4M - 2.0M, that looks wierd for aircraft with stabilisers behind the wing. What is good in HB FM is that it works when airflow is reversed (when aircraft falls backwards on "bell" maneuver), forces on stabiliser become inverted. That didn't work on HB Tomcat.
Part 2, dogfighting with F-4E
ua-cam.com/video/snkuIyu7U8Q/v-deo.htmlsi=-88U6mPE3Oo1jl0a
Gvad, Thank you, I’m always amazed by how much wisdom you pack into these videos. Very privileged to have this information free of charge - i can not wait for the 🐶🤺
Great stuff, the numbers matter in this bird in terms of getting the best from it.
Nice video. I think the default toggle pilot body is unbound for some reason but toggling pilot body in VR definitely makes it feel better.
So this is the F4 at March Field Museum which I have been going to since I was about 7. I am 45 now but when I was a kid and rolled this thing in back in 93 they let me sit in it and play around as my grandfather (Who was a retired Chief Master Sargent in the USAF) lived locally at what was "Sun City" at the time and knew all the guys who ran that little (At the time little anyway) museum. It really meant a lot to me that they included this Livery and used this Phantom to develop this module.
If anyone reading this is ever in So-Cal I HIGHLY recommend seeing this museum. It has an INCREDIBLE display of aircraft and bot of cool movie and WWII memorabilia as well plus Sabu.
Man this is so interesting! Thanks for your content✌🏻
Great video. But i still salivating for the MiG-17. I finally get a combat manual for the 17, from '72. So i already learning the craft.
17 is a Gen 1 plane, quick and can turn but only when inside the envelope, you get to the edge and MiG17 is tumbling. There are 5 or 6 different types of stalls as opposed to 1 wing roll in the F-4. There are no dampeners, flight computers to help you. One moment you're flying next moment departing. If you look at an airshow, ask yourself why arent they doing edge stuff with the 17, just a turn and fast pass, theres a reason. So be ready 🫡
@@FSX404 Oh i am ready. Soviet style. By the book. 😃
@@tamasratkai1130and you have to fly it by the numbers, its not forgiving if you fall behind the plane 👍🏻👍🏻
very interesting analysis of flight dynamics. I watched with pleasure.
Great analysis! Thank You!
Its such a small part, but even this took a week. To do a full analysisnit would take a month and 2.5-3 hr video, but thank you.
The video I was waiting for! Looking forward to Pt. 2 (and hopefully a Top Gun series!)
Was watching a few interviews with F-4 pilots and they also mentioned "you fly it by AoA, not airspeed".
Why is AoA calculated and displayed in units and not simply degrees?
Great video!
Ohhh we just flew the part 2, with a back seater. It was awesome.
AOA is constant, thats what you use for the approach, speed changes for that AOA so you dont have to figure out your weight, then your approach speed... AOA there it is.
I have no idea why they use units. 30 units in this case is 18 AOA, point where F-4 (and a lot of older planes stall).
Some righteous info here. Thanks, that's good lookin' out.
GVad Great Video as always. very informative. Big congratulations to HB on delivering it on the numbers.
Awesome info! Thanks!!
4:47 what happens might be:
High AOA, stick to the left: right wing's aileron goes down, left wing's spoiler goes up.
The right wing creates more lift (aileron acting similar to a flap) but also (much) more drag than the spoiler on the left wing, which will cause some drag and lower the lift of the left wing. Overall, this makes the aircraft yawing to the right, increasing the airflow speed over the left wing, producing more lift and causing the roll to the right.
If using the rudder this will also cause yaw to the right with increase airflow speed over the left wing and reduced airflow speed over the right wing, causing the intended "roll right".
Thank you for your insights, love the analysis !
I was wondering the same about high-speed stalls. I remember watching a video of a Vietnam vet saying he departed at over 300 knots in the aircraft switched ends.
That was an F-4J cross control stall (Hartmann maneuver in a jet plane), F-4E was more stable due to longer slats, and Im not sure if it could do a cross control stall
I think the FM is really good for a fresh release. HB modules have the best flight models imo, and knowing them the Phantom is only going to get tweaked and improved as time goes on
I'll take an issue with F-14, I think its off by a lot at slow speeds, but F-4 is much more improved and accurate for sure
너무 웅장합니다.
わかりません
I guess I am not the only one who first goes to MCAS to test out the flight model on a new release. I was expecting a flight model that was a lot more difficult at low speeds and I found the F-4E to be quite benign overall. The stories I had heard led me to believe the Phantom could bite you and be tricky and I have not found this to be the case. No matter how hard I try to stall the aircraft, the worst I can get is a 180 degree roll that then ... just ends ... and the aircraft reverses its roll and levels out even when I try to hold it in a stall condition. I had to really work at it to get into a flat spin and normal spins beyond one revolution I haven't manage to achieve at all. The most I can get is a half roll and then it just ... levels out.
I have never flown an F-4E so I can't really comment about the accuracy of the flight model but to me a Cessna 172 is easier to stall and spin than the HB F-4E module is at this point. Overall though, I am really enjoying the module and, as you demonstrated, the flight model in other regards is very good.
Thanks for the demonstration of the flight dynamics. I heard an interview from a US Navy F-4 pilot. From his experience, the F-4B, C, D J, S and N could get their noses on a target quicker because they did not have that long nose and weight up front that the F-4E, F and G had. I wonder, will HB bring out The US Navy and Marine F-4, and the earlier C and D models of the Phantom?
Dont trust pilots too much, lol.
I think there may be a plan for the Navy version either B or J by Heatblur but Im not 100% sure.
@@FSX404 I think there's a plan and it will also be sold as a separate module because of the necessary work!
@@Galf506 I dont blame them, 2+ yrs of work and we still have a few months to go, and nothing except long days and spending a lot of money to show for it yet. Then some idi*t like me says ohhh this part is not quite right 😓😓😓. I'll buy it just cause I know how much went into it
@@FSX404 oh you're no idiot, finding issues in the module helps everyone, HB included.
The thing with the Navy versions is that it will have a different radar and plenty different elements so they can't just offer it as a version like the F-14A afaik, but I bet there will be a sizeable discount for F-4E owners
Very informative, thank you!
So according to your analysis, the Phantom flight model is one of the best in dcs for jets? I was waiting for your analysis to decide to buy the module. What interests me most is the fidelity of the flight model. I don't usually fly jets, I like piston airplanes. I want to buy my first jet and I am looking for the one that has the most realistic and challenging flight model. The mig 17 from red star simulation is another one that I am interested in since they claim that they pay special attention to the flight model. Based on your experience, which one would you recommend?
FM is accurate where it matters, and decent at the edges, most cases which wont impact combat. Also, this FM has more features than other modules so far. No module is perfect, it can never be, so this is as good as May 2024 DCS gets. After having said this I hope it makes it easier to decide.
MiG17 is a different animal FM wise, this is HB time so I wont talk about the 17 just yet.
MiG-17 does have more detailed and more accurate FM than the F-4E, bigger FM development envelope and a bit more plane feedback (talking back to a pilot), but they are completely different planes. 17 is a dream to fly in the envelope, but unforgiving out of it. F-4 is a speed demon.
Nice video. Do you have any hours in an actual F-4 any variant?
Thanks, this is awesome!
I enjoy your content. Thanks!!
Any idea the ETA on the MiG-17? Even though this is a late model F-4, it will still be interesting to recreate the classic duel of speed vs maneuverability.
We'll make that video soon, I already posted a small snipit on FB. As far as when it will release, thats still not set yet, I wish I had more info to pass.
i have many DCS modules and with 3 i have trouble with trim to level flight and center stick ! The F4 is one of them. when i do trim nose down or up i cant see the elevator moving outside !? In F14 it works well for me; they move. In F4 i always have to push the stick a lot forward to fly level which sucks a bit because my stick has a center force and it doe´nt feel right...not trimmed out ! Pls make a short vid how to trim that plane level in flight and stick centered.
Sounds like your nose down trim, or even the whole elevator trim at may not be working, I have no issues with the trim on the F-4
@@FSX404 and your elevators are moving outside when trimming ?? pls make a short vid with the given inputs and keybindings. thx
taking off loaded.. that wing rock.. are you flying with STABAUG off? I've never had that happen with 24 500lb bombs. Just curious. I've been taking off on by the numbers as well
Possibly, how do you turn it on, I'll try it. In any case I like the instability
@@FSX404 Later on you mention the dampening when working on slow speed stall behavior, which leads me to believe you have them on. The three two way toggles directly behind the L/R Engine Master switches. If you have them on, I may be being a little more timid on my inputs when loaded down for forestry work.
@@NyteStalker89 do you have 10-11 pitch on rotation? And 17-18 units on AOA gauge?
Yeah, the code may be wrong. The F-4 can easily 'stall' at high speeds --and because of the speed, it can be 'violent'.
Your vid makes me wanna quit work and play DCs right now 😂
Is the stall data above 200 knots from your F-4 SME friend for a slatted/soft-wing Phantom?
Israeli IAF F-4E, and these guys were top of the line fighterpilots. Its why video took a week, I wanted to confirm this specific point.
He also said that if you kept pulling and pulling while in a autoroll you'll end up in a spin 100% of the time, and that wasnt coded but I didnt mention it in the video.
B, C and J are a different animal thats even more notorious than E, which is quite milder than others.
@@FSX404 Roger that. Might be a good idea to file a bug report then.
@@ilejovcevski79 file a report?
@@FSX404 I think he meant mentioning the false/incorrect stall characteristic above 200 knots you saw to Heatblur
@@FSX404 LOL, typo! Bug report!
Have you seen what's going on with your stick and thus stabilator during the flight? Do you like it? Doesn't feel odd to be not in control of it?
I saw it, but not sure if the stick animation is off, or thrre is some augmentation going on. It didnt impact the FM, so I didnt show it or mention it
VR, max settings, and the F4…just what kind of beast of a PC do u have? 😂
I have a crappy one actually, not max settings rather medium and low, 3080 card with 64GB and i9 I think. But aleady bought parts for the new PC that should be a little better, 4080+ etc.
@@FSX404 Oh wow, on the video things look pretty good tho. I’m really struggling to get some proper frame rate with the F4, specially when I turn on both the mirrors and the radar. It’s by far the most demanding module on DCS, specially on multiplayer. I’m not sure if that’s just how HB wants it to be or if it’s just a lack of optimization, but I’m not even using that much my CPU, it stays at 40-50% usage and my GPU won’t go above 70%, yet my frame rate is just not great even with medium-low settings… :/
@@supermendi0078 ahhh I see, I havent tried on multi player yet other than 1 vs 1 on my server.
Hi Gvad! Take a look at ground effect on HB F-4E, please. It looks like it's missing.
And I don't like how HB Phantom departs but doesn't enter the spin, and how it reacts on aileron input on high AoA. Yes, you show right behaviour on your video, but try to exacerbate aileron movements and don't use rudder - aircraft in DCS will go into a comanded roll.
And engine obviously needs improvements - it spools up instantly.
I'm not sure how it should be, but HB Phantom pitch up on 1.4M - 2.0M, that looks wierd for aircraft with stabilisers behind the wing.
What is good in HB FM is that it works when airflow is reversed (when aircraft falls backwards on "bell" maneuver), forces on stabiliser become inverted. That didn't work on HB Tomcat.