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Breakthrough Plastic Battery Requires NO Mining, is Cheaper & Lasts Longer!
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- Опубліковано 18 сер 2024
- Plastic Battery: Go to bit.ly/3xzaugU
and use code TWOBIT to get 15% off ClickUp's massive Unlimited Plan for a year! Start reclaiming your time for less than $5 a month. Hurry offer ends soon.
Talking about batteries always brings up their environmental impact, and need for rare earth metals. And for good reason, we might be talking about different chemistries, but typically batteries are made from pretty specific metals. But this breakthrough battery from PolyJoule, is different, it is made with basically plastic, or conductive polymers that could really be a gamechanger. So what are the pros and cons? What sort of impact might they have, and are we actually going to see them on the market? Let's discuss!
Breakthrough Plastic Battery Requires NO Mining, is Cheaper & Lasts Longer!
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:42 Current Batteries
03:58 The Plastic Battery!
06:16 The Benefits
07:27 Life Span
08:29 Performance
10:52 What we don't Know Yet
11:34 What about all that Plastic?
what we'll cover
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Imagine a plastic battery the size of a standard heat exchanger for an AC unit sitting right next to it. No one would even notice it after a few weeks and you'd have enough power for your whole house in the case of an outage. I hope this tech comes to fruition.
Yeah, but no. You ought to be thinking about something 10 or a 100 times the size of your air conditioner. Probably no issue, if you plan it ahead of time. The cost of space is cheap, which is part of the reason for MacMansions. But it will still cause issues in some places.
@@richdobbs6595 I think 10-100 the size of your air conditioner is a bit hyperbolic. Well maybe if ones idea of air conditioner is a window airconditioner. Then maybe 10x is ballpark about right.
Two powerwalls is about sufficent to supply my home's AC unit its peek power demand. If the polybateries offer 5x the power and if were 5x the size of one power wall then I'd need only one poly battery power wall with with the same energy capacity as a single power wall wich is volummetrically 5x greater than one lithium powerwall. But if I want the same energy capacity of two power walls, then that's 10× the volume of one power wall. Or roughly close the size of my existing combined AC and Furnace unit that I commented about above.
I'd get one for sure. Right now I'm watching this on my phone in the dark cause the power in the whole area went out. Really could use one of those right about now.
None of these techs fruit. Why I can't hardly watch undecided with Matt f anymore. Pipe dreams
Just multiply the Tesla's Powerwall volume by 5. Probably the size of a refrigerator.
if it winds up that I can have a double sized refrigerator level battery that will be capable of powering my whole house at night and refilling during the day with solar with that many cycles? it's a massive win. not for phones or cars, but for off grid storage. every house in California will want one so they can not have blackouts. that alone would free up the grid for those that can't afford enough solar.
Glad you touched on the recycling piece. I hope PolyJoule engages with you for a follow-up video.
If it lasts 20 years and is cheap, even if all you do is landfill it afterwards, it wouldn't be a problem as long as it doesn't leach toxic stuff.
@@richdobbs6595 But plastics are largely made of fossil fuels, right? Or else you need the resources to grow and make bio plastics. Better that companies start thinking about recycling and end of life while they are developing new technologies instead of long after the stuff has been piling up.. and then realizing it has also been leaking toxic chemicals.
We need all of these ideas - the amount of storage required in a sustainable energy economy is massive!
indeed....we need ideas like this and many more... the challenge we face is huge and we need all hands on deck to innovate a better future.
@@TwoBitDaVinciWhat about Cold Cranking Amps? Can it be used as a starting battery for legacy Detroit rigs?
Yes, we need all of these ideas so that UA-cam content creators can make money by selling false hope.
Ah yes, don't forget to turn off the pipe line to charge those batteries. Just Have it shipped from overseas. Lmao
It's amazing, for the last 10 years I have seen dozens of "radical, game changing, world altering" battery breakthroughs announced and not one of them has resulted in a commercial product. Not a one. They all promise to change the world, seemingly to attract funding, and then disappear. I'm hopeful that this battery as well as the sulfur battery you discussed a while ago become actualized into commercially viable products. The sulfur battery has the potential to change the entire consumer battery market and the polymer battery has the potential to change the commercial battery market. Maybe in 3 years they will join fusion power production in becoming reality.....
Maybe it is all about the wall St. Investment energy it generates? The pie in the sky-hopeful investments.
I will buy into all the future now companies with Bitcoin! Hope this works out. New ideas , new like electric cars, are needed.
Next week, perpetual energy machines!
Here are the correct figures so you can adjust your mental model. It's clear you have been getting bad data. In fact, battery prices are roughly 14% of what they were a decade ago. All these Innovations have made a difference. If it were not for the recent surge of inflation, battery prices in 2023 were projected to be $101 per kilowatt hour. Now it's looking to be in the $120s.
Battery $ cost per kilowatt hour by year
2022 132 (despite inflation)
2021 135
2020 140
2019 156
2018 180
2017 219
2016 293
2015 381
2014 588
2013 663
2012 721
2011 917
Anyone who wants to verify these figures can Google "battery pack cost per kilowatt hour by year".
As a side note, the price performance for solar cells has been on a similar curve.
I'm most excited about District Heating though. It is a , inexpensive to store solar power as heat and then distribute it at night. There are already projects going up in Europe that will be online this winter. It's very fast to build and uses low quality sand or gravel or other materials the store Heat at about 540 C. It's an upgrade from Steam heating with much lower costs and much higher safety.
Would I buy powerwalls that are 5x more spacious if they were 5× power dense and the battery were roughly 70% less expensive and lasted twice as long?
YES!
Did he mess up there? I though the power density was 5x less than Lithium Ion, so a 5x size should be the same density as the Lithium Ion, right?
@@NdxtremePro the plastc cell energy density was 1/5th as the amount of energy for a given volume, 9:25. As to the power for a given capacity, it was pointed out polyjoul could charge in 5 minutes where as lithium needed 30 minutes to get to 80%, 8:54. Discharge was 10× lithium, 8:31.
Exactly. Have maximum allowable solar, insulation, air source heat pump and EV. Am dead in the water on my quest to electrify everything and power it with renewables and efficiency here at home. Affordable, big capacity batteries are essential. No other way to get retrofit homes like mine close to net zero.
You can ONLY choose two out of four.
Size
Efficiency (charge/discharge cycle and capacity)
Longevity
Cost (Up front purchase & lifetime).
Seems like, for fixed storage (home use & grid storage) these Joul cells would be ideal. You just need five times the space. For mobile use, LiOn is still the leader.
that already exists. it'ss called lead acid battery
Very nice how you pointed out the unknowns and looked at this chemistry in a broader perspective. Too many youtubers just uncritically repeat the contents of the company website. Thank you!
That’s one reason why I love 2Bits
If I could get batteries for my house that lasted longer than current offerings and cost less but take up more wall space I think it would still be a good idea.
One "simple" way to significantly increase lifetime and number of charging cycles of *_lithium-ion_* battery packs, is to charge them to signficantly less than their maximum specified capacity. However, it is my understanding that commercial installations charge/maintain the battery packs at capacities near their maximum spec'd value. Example to increase lifetime and charging cycles...charge a pack spec'd to 500Ah to only 400Ah. Depending on the cells, temperatures, etc this can perhaps even double the number of times one can cycle/charge the pack. Since each cell in the pack is also only being charged to about 80% or so of its spec'd maximum capacity, that means a lower cell voltage and that puts far less electrochemical stress inside the cell at all times, including while it is not being used.
This approaches meets your condition of while it DOES REQUIRE MORE WALL SPACE, in return one significantly increases the performance while likely lowering the overall cost. Since it will require more cells (and more support hardware) in total, the up-front cost will be higher. But that should be recovered in the longer lifetimes and larger number of charge cycles one will get out of the packs. One would have to run the numbers for each installation to estimate approximate actual gains as they can be affected by usage duty-cycle, rate of charging, cell temperatures, and more.
Edit to add: keep in mind this info is for lithium-ion packs. LiFePO4 and other types may not have the same responses to this method and one mey not see the same benefits, if any. This comment is largely based on information on Lithium-ion cell management at the _batteryuniversity_ website. It's a good website on the tech involved in various types of cells and batteries and best practices on how to handle and manage them.
For private house if you don't need to keep it under room temperature the size doesn't really matter. Most of the price for home use is a inverter that and charging controller anyway.
Potential piece to the overall storage puzzle. Like you said, the objective isn't to replace lithium but rather supplement it. Sounds like it would be a great alternative to lithium for grid or home storage. Utilities might be more apt to invest in grid level storage if the cost and performance claims made by Polyjoule hold up at scale. The universal constant still applies - working in the lab on a small scale is one thing, manufacturing and applying it in an industrial capacity is another. Sounds promising - time will tell. Definitely something worth keeping an eye on. Great vid - thanks for sharing with us! 🤠
I see them being a good competitor for home storage against Lithium, as grid storage it may be superior to the Iron Oxide experiments, and possibly for freight shipping against Hydrogen tech. One of the rare upsides of the Free Market is that alternative products of a similar quality and lower cost, naturally pushes down or reduces price increases on other products which may be overall more effective.
My question is though, where can we source the plastic for these? Perhaps a monumental effort for recycling? Encourage those able to work on welfare into recycling plastic at part time hours, to get paid that on top of their welfare?
Else when the oil industry is finished, as it hopefully will be within 10 years, this product gets nowhere, unless alternative plastic production methods take off
Depending on material strength factors, the liquid electrolyte, etc. plastic batteries might work in a lot of other places as well as structural components. Think of how many things are encased in plastic or have plastic chassis. Structural batteries have been a discussion for years now. This kind of technology might lend itself in that field as well.
@@michaelchildish: _"One of the rare upsides of the Free Market ..."_
Rare upside?! What are you, a flaming communist?
@@michaelchildish You hope the oil industry is finished in 10 years? Are you delusional? Do you have any idea what a nightmare that would be at a global scale? Green energy is good. It's getting transitioned in, but cutting oil completely would put us back in the horse and buggy era... wooden wagon wheels and hemp leads at that.
These days when I hear or read the truism you mentioned...
_The universal constant still applies - working in the lab on a small scale is one thing, manufacturing and applying it in an industrial capacity is another_
I can't help but think of Elon Musk's solution to scaling up by directly using "mass quantities" of the small 18650 cells to power his electric vehicles.
One might even call it *_The Conehead Process_*
I'm glad someone is working on these issues. There is enough brain power on the planet to solve all are problems.
Agreed!
So much "breakthrough" on UA-cam every day and we are still dealing with ages old shit in real life.
Yea, they just wait for investment and state grants. If they deliver nothing there is no responsibility.
The factor of utilizing plastic waste is a huge selling point for me. This sort of tech should be encouraged by and invested in by plastics manufacturers as part of the overall lifetime cycle of their production. If you produce plastics, you should also be accountable for the responsible recyclability and ultimate disposal. This sort of tech has a major advantage to producing a long term, utilizable benefit based on recycled material component which provides a major offset to the cost and negative impact of it's ultimate final disposal. The more use you can get out of the plastic and the longer it can be used, the less ultimate, overall, negative impact it has and the more justifiable it's initial production and original use.
Cool . I like the idea that Toyota is doing with ceramic batteries. Plus we could stop making plastic bottles and make them out of glass again like we had when I was growing up, which are totally recyclable!
If it’s in the lab, it’s pretty much irrelevant for a very long time.
We didn't buy our water in bottles back then - that much glass moved into the environment where water is distributed and used would be problematic too. Remember glass breaks, and is very sharp, it's extremely heavy.
@@pdloder Well, "back then", we drank our water from the tap, so we didn't need glass water bottles. Nevertheless we did buy our milk, soft drinks, medicines and beer in glass bottles.
@@RexxSchneider and there were/are very good reasons we moved to plastics - however bad the outcome was.
@@pdloder The reasons were convenience and plastic is cheap. In the long run glass bottles were cheaper as they used and reused and reused.
These things are almost like capacitors. They are quick to charge and quick to discharge but don't have a high energy density. I could see these used in conjunction with other types of batteries, using a little more advanced battery management system to control power output and flow. Maybe you could get a little punch in acceleration like nitrous!
essentially would be perfect for the peaker plant cut on/off if still using fossil fuel/nuclear peakers
I wondered the same, would a hybrid battery work, but I'm not convinced it would work out well.
For instance, say the poli battery portion were 1/5 the capacity of the existing system, then one could reduce the lithium portion to 4/5ths
Collectively the capacity is the same, and the power capacity is doubled, but the volume is 1.8×, or virtually doubled. Not sure what the specific energy density(kwh/kilogram) is but I wouldn't be surprised if if were comparable to lithium batteries which would mean you virtually double the weight too.
I've always been confused as to why we worry about size of batteries for grid storage.
well, you just cant ignore it entirely. if a material is half the price, but the battery has to be twice as big then you may not really improving anything. Plus even if its far cheaper, if its 100 times the size required, a battery bank for a city may have to be massive.
Far better to make batteries (that last 20-30 years) from oil than to just burn it...
Oil is an easy consumable. Oil starts coming out of the ground when the don’t get consumed, it is that abundant.
IF the charge discharge rates are not made up*, then this would compliment Lithium batteries quite well in automotive applications. With a 1KWH polymer battery, capable of transfering all of its energy in 10 seconds, that is the equivelant of 360KW/480HP. This means that you could use much larger LiFePO4 cells for your main battery storage, say 280 amp hour cells instead of just 2-10 amp hour.
This makes battery packs exponentially easier to assemble and service because instead of thousands of cells, you will probably need less than 50.
This opens up the ability to monitor and balance each individual cell, instead of being limited to balancing whole rows of cells.
This would drive down the cost of electric vehicles in two ways, as the cost per KWH goes down as the cell density increases thanks to less structural material. And assembling the packs becomes faster and less labor intensive.
This also makes electric cars more reliable with longer lasting packs as each cell can be maintained individually.
This also would open the door to user replacable batteries, as these 280AH cells are about the size of a small motorcycle battery, with an all in one connector it would be very simple to just have the end user replace a failed/end of life cell, instead of replacing the entire pack as a whole unit.
As long as the storage pack is capable of supplying, and charging at 100kW 99.9% of people would not notice a difference between a traditional pack, and a hybrid pack, as even when towing a trailer, you arent likely to need more than 125HP for more than 30 seconds.
The main reason we dont use these large cells is because they generally have a 1-2C rating** compared to the the smaller cells which may have a 10c rating because of the lower thermal density. That means that while a 50kwh large cell pack is capable of 50-100KW constant output, a 50kwh small cell pack may be capable of as much as 1000KW output. Yes it is much larger and heavier overall, but this extra power is needed when merging onto an interstate, or pulling away from a stop light. And really, for the longevity of the battery, it is recommended to only use 1/2 of its rated charge/discharge rate
* It was likely a slip of the tongue, and he probably meant to say 1MW for 10 seconds, instead of one full megawatt hour transfering in just 10 seconds, but it sounds like the charge/discharge rates are completely false, because how could a small battery be capable of transferring energy, at 1/3rd the rate of the average nuclear power plant reactor (360MW/h vs 1000MW/h) or 482 thousand horsepower
** C rating is a measurement of how quickly a battery charges and discharges. To convert C rating into actual power, you take the Amp Hour rating of the battery, take the 280Ah cells above, and multiply it by the C rate, so a C rate of 3, on a 280Ah cell, means that it can transfer energy at 840A, multiply that by the cell voltage(3.2) and you get the total energy rate of 2688W convert that to HP take the 2.688kW multiply it by 1.341022 and you end up with 3.522HP
Somebody put this guy in charge of the planets energy.
Quickly.
@@willthomson8863 Being in the ship business, away from shore weeks, there is not enough area on ships , reasonably available for seawater drenched solar panels to just drive the lighting inside, sacrifice cargo volumen for sensitive batteries makes even cheap batteries lose cumulative income .For propulsion the numbers are worse.The power of oldest technology sails is by far so superior, that it is a giant step back to substitute bunker oil.
So now we are the villains that put food, tools, electric cars and even solar panels at affordable prices to YOUR front door. sometimes at considerable risk of typhoon caused damages, and no electric helicopters to pull us out. either.
@@arturoeugster7228 first of all, I am impressed by your adult use of sentences and reasonable arguments. I am so tired of having to argue with total reeetards or people who can't use sentences and at best can only manage emojis, or even worse, when presented with facts, go silent so I've wasted my goddam time. Would happily engage in a back and forward conversation with you on this thread about the subject of you are willing?
I did a master's in energy and environmental engineering in 2006 and have been heavily continuing my personal interest in the subject since then. I invented a funneled wind turbine, which proved to be crap but used the data to prove that a bunch of companies were lying to get Obama green funding for their bullcrap funneled wind new 'inventions'. So I'm a fan of truth and logic, not echochamber biased nonsense.
My first question is this. Have you seen the new invention about a boat that has used solar roof to power the boat that lifts on hydrofoils, thereby reducing drag by 90%?
Question 2 is, are you aware of LiFePo4 (lfp)'batteries?
Man, if this could be a catalyst for recycling, and it works for megapack facilities... awesome find, 2bit!
I had in mind to ask about the capacity / weight issue, but you pretty much covered what I was wondering... If the poly battery has to be five times bigger for the same capacity, then the best use-case would most likely be stationary bulk storage, where size isn't such a limiting factor.
Imagine siding for buildings, ceiling tiles or flooring that are actually batteries.
1 megawatt hour in 10 seconds.
Thats 360 MW for 10 seconds.
Soo, this battery has the ability to discharge at a rate similar to that of a small nuclear reactor?
What is the size of this battery a small single story office building?
No one involved in the making of these videos has ever taken a physics class.
Hahaha
It's just possible he meant to say "1 MW for 10 seconds", which is about 2.8 kWh of energy. Probably closer to the mark.
@@RexxSchneider thats the most likely meaning, but the gauge of wire needed for that would still be absolutely insane.
at 3.2v thats going to be over 800A
0000 gauge copper can only carry 225A at 3.2v 6 inches according to 2 different online calculators.
This would need massive bus bars and even that might be a problem because it would need to be 65mm wide and 12mm tall made out of solid copper
@@denvera1g1 You're quite right about huge currents, but 1MW from 3.2V needs over 300,000 amps. I didn't spot what the battery voltage was in the video. I wonder if the 1MW was coming from a stack of batteries? Although even at 100V, the current would be 10,000A. Something's still not right.
We haven't done the damage on the beaches, the container ships have done that..... Great video !
Sounds too good to be true for a layman. Sincerely hope it turns out to be as good as the report states.
Now you're talking! Rarely do we here good news about battery life in terms of charge cycles, and this is very encouraging! Nice reporting, sir! All good wishes.
Just a question, lithium battery's fail over time, isn't there a way to revive the material so in can be used again? And as for the recycling of plastics please advise the manufacturer to look at the recycling industry in the Netherlands. We have come a long way already at separation of various sorts. I am not in that industry by the way. Just a ships engineer.
There is a rapidly growing Li-ion battery recycling industry. That's the way to revive the material. I don't know of any way to safely and effectively do it in situ without wrecking the battery.
I saw a video that claimed a properly maintained Prius battery can easily last 30 years.
In metal-ion batteries, the metal ion is the charge carrier from one electrode to the other in a non-aqueous solution. The redox reaction that provides the charge/discharge reaction is normally between different oxidation states of a transition metal. The degradation of the battery occurs because the metal ion can eventually bind with oxygen (usually on overcharging) and no longer be available for carrying charge.
Recovering lithium from Li-ion batteries will involve reducing the Li2O back to Li, and there's no way to accomplish that in situ, so reviving the battery is a non-starter. You just have to extract and separate the materials, then start again.
@@RexxSchneider Thank you for your response. So the lithium is not totally lost. If you can separate the battery's components.
@@jangoedbloed2141 It should be pretty easy to separate lithium metal from its oxide as Li melts at 180°C and Li2O melts at 1438°C. Reducing the oxide to the base metal can be done electrolytically via the chloride (the electrolysis of LiCl is the usual final step in producing Li from its ores).
So the title depends on if you consider pumping for oil "mining", or if they can use recycled material. And my guess on the "bandwidth" of plastics; it will be just in one category, as demands on material properties will be pretty specific.
Thanks for this man. The only way we can get there is to think our way through it. You are providing so much thought.
I could find room for something the size of a fridge as long as it is cheep enough. 😆
Regarding the hope to reuse plastic to produce this battery; as a chemist, I can guarantee you it needs a very specific type of plastic, and at very high purity, as it would have to be designed for use in such a battery.
Recycling plastic to use, other than from old batteries of this type, would be a daunting task, at the very least because of the high purity needed.
Once plastic is polluted/mixed with other plastics or materials, it becomes very hard to recycle, and is much easier to just burn along with other garbage.
There are several depolymerization processes that, when they become reliable and cost-effective, could resolve the purity problem. Break plastics down into short-chain polymers and combine them back into the custom long-chain ones. By then the energy density of polymer batteries should be improved and we'll have a closed cycle of efficient, recyclable batteries.
I keep thinking about refueling my vintage VW Bug with electric, but range with existing battery technology vs the range on gasoline makes me hesitant. Something like this would definitely push me over the top. I just hope I live long enough to do the conversion. Thanks for sharing
Try a hybrid, Toyota Prius, very economical. Extremely long range
You will not regret it, Fun again in driving noiseless for mostly short daly trips, chargeable at home. On the road at 70 mpg
This is the complete opposite of what you would want. This would store a lot less wattage for the space it takes up. It would be great for stationary power, but not for anything that needs to move.
Awesome to see more variety in our energy future.
I remember the promise of "Plastic Batteries" back in the 1980s. At that time it was theorized that a car body could be made of plastic & be the battery, 40 years later?
For the last 40 years, oil and natural gas have been so cheap that there has never been any financial incentive to seriously develop technologies to store energy in quantity.
It's a different story now, though, isn't it? My energy supplier is going to charge me £0.10 per kWh of gas and £0.33 per kWh of electricity, with a promise of rises in January.
I am guessing that the scale of potential poly batteries is far less than the amount of plastic kicking around, so will never have an impact on using recycled plastic, even if that works.
Oil is an amazing resource, our grandchildren will be shocked that we burned it.
If the poly batteries are 95% recyclable and last 30 years, not sure that is a huge issue.
Sure hope this works.
As usual, great job Ricky. I've been enjoying Two-bit Davinci for several months and have subscribed. You talked about "doing the right thing." That's such a huge point and often I think simple changes could enable that. As an example you talked about recyclable plastics. I've long wondered why we make so many different kinds of plastic but recycle only a few types. Why not only make/use recyclable plastic? From the chart you showed it appears different plastics have different chemistries. I assume this is to give them different desirable properties. I get that some things need a stiffer plastic while other things need more flexibility. In my city they used to recycle #2, 4 and 6 plastic (I think I got those numbers right) but now recycle only plastic things with lids (milk jugs, soda bottles). This means they no longer take yogurt, cottage cheese, sour cream, etc. cups. The reason they gave was because the odd and often squished shapes were hard to mechanically detect and filter and often jammed the machines. And here's the simple change. Change the yogurt containers to use plastic screw-on lids like peanut butter jars. The jars already exist. Machinery already exists to handle them. That plastic is already recycled.
plastic recycling is a huge frustration and big topic....would you like to see us cover it? we do have a similar topic on the books about waste.
you might really enjoy our discord group. we will have a link to it on our next video dropping tomorrow or on our next live stream.
Great - look forward to an update. Thanks and G’day from Oz. 🇦🇺
The single thing that I care about least is the size of a home battery.
The most important features are cycle life and calendar life, .. plus of course no brainers such as efficiency, reliability and safety.
So, what's to stop slab shaped batteries being installed inside walls, or above ceilings, etc., once this technology matures a bit? If there's no fire hazard and they last for many years, it could perhaps become common practice to incorporate them into the building itself, rather than into a big box outside.
I'm not sure how many companies use 'parallel models' to design products, anymore; but were I looking to 'create a new battery', I'd go back to the drawing board, square one, and start with the concept of a simple capacitor. Keep in mind, while electronics capacitors are used in a variety of applications, to increase voltage, to form specific energy waveforms, etc., where a battery is basically an energy storage capacitor you're trying to get the longest, flattest discharge possible, from. So...what does a 'long, slow discharge' capacitor look like? What are features which enhance such a discharge curve? One of the biggest problems all industries face, is when they copy 'the last generation of a product'...as with photocopying, the 'copy' eventually loses all semblance of the original. Stop copying the 'last generation' (with batteries, that analogy could be Lithium Ion or Li-Po examples), and go back to the 'capacitor blueprint', and seek out modern materials which would maximize the mechanical intent, to start with...as you aren't really wanting a 'battery' as much as you want a 'VERY slow drain, flat wave, temperature insensitive' capacitor that has no recharge degradation.
No mining? I guess it depends on how you define that term but industrial chemicals don't fall from the sky.
Sure they do. Acid rain.
Sorry, I'll see myself out now.
Neat ideas. There are a lot of people working on various ways to make our world better. I hope they succeed.
Hope too
If they can truly demonstrate the use of plastic waste in the creating of plastic batteries, then the investment will come flooding in.
I can’t see many wanting to deal with new plastic waste. It’s already unmanageable, a problem created from the byproducts of oil and gas production that legacy energy has an incentive to keep making plastics.
So many goals and so little regulation of these dirty polluters is not going to get us to net zero.
Also, where are all the spent consumer batteries? There’s never even been a return policy from that industry. There must be billions of AA batteries in landfills around the world with materials that need to be reclaimed.
The materials in ordinary consumer batteries are not valuable enough to pay the cost of gathering and recycling them. Dealing with plastic waste is something that should be tackled on its own and not linked to a developing battery technology. The chemistry of the plastic used in packaging is radically different than the specialty polymers used in the Polyjoule battery.
@@incognitotorpedo42 I disagree. If end-of-life processing keeps being treated as an afterthought or a separate issue, it's less likely for a solution to be developed. That is why it's good that manufacturers are starting to pay attention to what happens after their products are used.
This is an excellent technology to have, right alongside thermal batteries--although those are more useful for grid power storage, where they'd actually decrease fire risks and reduce the amount of environment control needed (they're already hot enough that external temperatures don't matter as much).
Rapid charging City busses at bus stops may make a great use case where the battery is 5x more powerfull, and cost less than half and charges to full +6x faster, and last 2x longer than lithium ion.
That is asuming the specific energy density, Kwh/kilograms, is not too low.
I'll be waiting for the follow up regarding efficiency and use of recycled materials. If those two turn out positive, that would indeed be a promising technology.
Is it magnesium (Mg) in a Li ion battery? I thought that it was manganese (Mn).
Magnesium is commonly used in the contact alloys.
I would buy a product that is 5 times the size for a home storage battery but being from the UK where houses are not always large they would need to make it up rated so it could be mounted/ installed outside open to the elements
Want to solve plastic recycling? Governments must mandate an ever increasing percentage of recycled plastic in all new products produced. This will make recycled plastic a valuable material and encourage manufacturers to use recyclable plastic/develop new methods of recycling, otherwise they will eventually be unable to make new 'stuff'. They're not going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
I would accept a phone battery 5 times bigger if it meant it would charge in 5 minutes!
In fact, I would take half the battery life if it would recharge completely in 5 minutes.
Put a charger outside the bathroom or have two batteries to swap out and even if the battery is less energy dense, the fast charging or swappable batteries makes it all no big deal.
indeed.....Any place you can have fast recharging available it might be a worth while trade-off
even if it looks funny :)
One MWatt hour in TEN SECONDS? That's a power level of 360 MEGAWATTS! I'm dubious. Did you get the units right?
It wouldn't take many of those batteries to power time travel in a DeLorian.
Just had a Tesla megapack fire down in SoCal. There isn't any footage or pictures but they had to close the nearby freeway for hours. If the future is going to be electric: conventional lithium iron batteries ain't it! We need a new safer battery tech that's at least 2x the power density, which would then also make EAVs much more feasible.
Stationary power doesn't need 2x the power density. Mobile power would benefit from higher density, but it would benefit more from lower cost.
Wait a minute. The moss landing battery did have a fire. It’s in northern cal and nowhere near a freeway. They did shut Hwy1 for a short time and the fire was managed quickly.
So just a note here on where your getting your info.
I think the best way to reduce plastic waste would be to mandate all new homes be built with Reverse Osmosis systems.
It would really hurt the water bottle industry but it would save so much plastic waste.
I found this video to be very interesting and a little bit hope building, though like you mentioned, a lot is still unknown or up in the air. But, that's the case for a lot of new or potential battery technologies. I really believe that both in a typical money/oil-based market like we currently have and also a cashless society that which battery technologies we do/don't develop could make or break us. We're going to be in a phase where power production starts to improve due to stressors on it (coal and oil will become either more rare or less allowed by government epa agencies).. essentially power production right now seems bad but will get better and better, more efficient, cleaner overall, and both deeper and broader. So, then power production won't be the issue anymore, it will be power distribution and power storage. Once the power storage issues are rectified, then power distribution won't be much of an issue either since a lot of people will be producing their own power in this ideal future (this is assuming we can get out of the clenches of power companies and government agencies forcing us on grid, or we are on grid but it is cheaper, they are developing ways to more safely and efficiently transport electrical power).
So glad I found your channel....very well presented, I'll be watching more of your videos..thanks for the education
the best use case for this type of battery is for homes as a powerwall. 5x the size of an li ion isnt that much unlike a pump hydro.. i hope they push this through. taking some load off from li ion is good for supply issues . li ion for cars and phones and this for homes. then have more time to find the next solution.
What about the mass? If the plastic solution is much lighter it might as well be integrated in more interesting ways structurally.
In the floating pile of plastic in the Pacific ocean they've discovered little plastic waste eating living microbes or something like that. Garbage plastic might not be an issue in the future if we can use them to break it down with out using more chemicals.
it's been five years or more that we get one vid per month explaining how close we are to the "breakthrough" of batteries. Are there significant progress ?
electrical cables and wiring are self ocntained batteries with a minor tweak they can also be more approportioned to be grouped into charge cells and cluster in sequence an din side
Geeze! If I had a dime for every new 'super battery' I'd help pay off the national debt. Remember the salt water battery?
Guess the "Plastic Battery Requires NO Mining" does not need oil or coal to make the plastic...! So mining for coal or drilling for oil is okay if you are refining the "Stored Sun Light" into plastic.
If does not need oil of coal. Unfortunately, organic alternatives aren't cheap enough yet.
@@edeaglehouse2221 I do respect your feedback regarding "organic" I guess plastic. Still have a hard time be leaving the plastic battery can be made and then placed into any mfg device like an EV or solar storage system. without oil, coal or nature gas being a gating & key item in the production cycle.
Good to see that you are asking the relevant questions, even if they are critical ! about time.
Each lithium battery in an EV requires 500,000 pounds of ore to be harvested and refined all using diesel engines - that's why every EV already has 7 years of CO2 usage on it over an ICE car.
"It's always cheaper to buy new plastics rather than to buy recycled".
Part of THIS is because the cost of collecting for recycling, as well as separating it into different classes COSTS far more than the cost of new plastics.
The ridiculous part of the sham is that the groups doing the recycling are pushed into doing it in the most inefficient ways, while ignoring the most inherently cost effective ways -- In most places, the garbage collection for individual homes also does it. MEANWHILE, the places where it is typically all together in one place -- apartments and condominiums -- get charged separately for it, so they don't do it -- even though THAT is far far more energy and time efficient in terms of the amount of plastics you get vs. the energy used to collect IT. We should be strongly encouraging apartment complexes and condos to collect recyclables, and accept that it is going to happen less in individual housing (it still could be encouraged by voluntary collection at specific areas nearby)
Every cheaper tech for energy storage means freeing up lithium for EVs, so its always good news!
Until they are able to perfect graphene type of batteries, that is. Ultimately, the goal isn't so much replacing carbon based fuels, but rather develop the technology to be less intrusive when it comes to mining, which produces comparable carbon emissions. Plastic is a neat concept, but I am concerned about the amount of temperature such batteries can take. Still, if plastic can be converted to better use, the value of plastic might significantly increase.
@@dswynne I agree. It's very common to forget to do a full-cycle analysis of new technologies, from design and testing to mass production to disposal/recycling, especially when things like mining for minerals aren't happening in your own backyard. For most people, these issues are essentially invisible.
WHAT!? Another breakthrough again!?
Seems like every week there’s some new battery technology that we’ll never see come to fruition in our lifetime
Isn't plastic made using oil? Can you use recycled plastic for this?
Theoretically any petrochemical could be synthesized from cultivated organic material. That's basically how fossil fuels came to exist in the first place after all. Petroleum is just relatively cheaply available.
Australian researcher has developed a process that reduces plastic UNSORTED into the oil that is original used to make plastic so if that research is true any plastic could be recycled by his process into batteries!
PLA isn't.
You probably could but as always just making new plastics will be cheaper and favoured
@@AtTheBarn apologise
What are the implications affecting these plastic batteries when exposed to external heat sources? Will it drain quicker or maybe actually gain power like say the battery is painted black and exposed to the sun, what will happen? What about fire risk?
good question👍
the + and - poles on the 3D batteries change eacht time:
in the first view the pos. side is the side with the 'crown' and the next view that is the neg. side.
happens at 05:24 and at 07:14 again : if that would be true you would have a shortcircuit inside the battery itself.
at 09:30 a likewise error happens: the one side with a 'crown' or a little bit of a thicker end is the neg. side if you see "polyjoule" printed, but it's the pos. side if you see the brand logo...
while in any excisting battery such such ring or crown would always indicate either the neg. or the pos. side of the battery and never change to prevent ppl from connecting the battery the wrong way around and cause shortcircuits.
at 10:50 it is very clear: the side with the 'crown' is topside, but half a turn the pos. connector is indicated to be on the top and the next half turn it's at the bottom, while neither of the connectors change their position. that will never happen on a real battery : the top connector is either the neg. one or the pos. one independing on how often you turn it around its lenght-axial. never both at the same time and depending on what print on the battery you're looking at. same for the bottom connector.
the error of walking half a turn around the battery while it stays at the same place and position (e.g.: bottom being at your left and afterwards top being at your left) and printing the text again from left to right vs staying at the same side and just rolling the battery half a turn further and printing the text from the same side to the same side again. (bottom is and stays at your left)
or if in 3D: with the X-Y-Z origin being in the middle of the battery: the Z axial would be the lenght of the battery from connector to connector you turned it 180 degree around either the X or Y axial while you the observer stay at the same 3d spot vs turning it 180 degrees around the Z axial while you again stay at the same 3D spot.
in that first way top and bottom swap places, in the 2nd way top and bottom stay at the same place.
very informative , thanx TBdV !
Very interesting.
I feel like we keep getting fed rainbows and unicorns on plastic recycling. The industry is not internalizing it's external costs. We almost need a deposit type system when consuming plastic products that gets paid out in part on depositing for recycling and the other part goes to fund actual recycling. Maybe an additional tax on plastic products to fund research into or the actual function of recycling. The same can be said of any environmentally unfriendly product, especially the big new stuff like non-lead acid based rechargeable batteries, solar panels, wind generators, and consumer electronics.
You make mention of cryogenic air as a way of storing energy from wind and solar. I saw a video on that a few months ago and it seemed a brilliant idea but it was ruined with one line: Turn it back into electricity. Why do that? It seems like an idea that that would massively reduce the demand on the grid made by air conditioning. A building to be cooled, a heat pump, and a tank of really chilled fluid as a heat sink? It seems like a combination that would provide ac with far less demand on the grid or batteries. Obviously to complicated for a family home but an industrial size system could cool every building in downtown San Diego or Sydney's cbd.
Do you imagine a gravity battery concept to be a better use of tidal forces than under water turbines? If a tank was to raise and lower on shafts similar to a grand father clock' you could use valves to both fill and empty these tanks a strategically efficient times to gain the most benefits of naturally occurring tidal variations.
It's always been so obvious that the tides have an infinite amount of power and twice every day . Maybe not exactly very cheap to install but nothing is free is it ?
ALL plastic comes from fossil fuels? Uh, PLA called, reminded you it's from sugar. Amazed a tech channel would forget about the main plastic used in 3d printing O.o
In stead of recycling, I’d love to see more videos / conversation on biochar disposal of plastics. This seems like the best solution to plastic waste that anyone has come up with.
Still generated CO2, if that wasn't an issue we could just use plasma gasification.
I believe they are much better solution for EVs than Lithium ion batteries. Features of energy density and power density are codependent: If you can recharge fast, you don't need that much range, because you are going to refill along the way. And opposite, if you can't recharge fast, you need to carry more energy with you, so that when you make stop for recharge, you already need the rest yourself (e.g. for having a meal), and the two "stopped" times ("stopped for recharge" and "stopped for longer rest") overlap.
Very informative. Thanks.
looking forward to seeing any of this new battery tech making it out of the lab.
You did a good job on this video. You showed its potential, and possible area where it would be a better fit, but you also asked questions that have no real answer yet.
Plastic recycle?, we should demand the oil companies to to take up the cost, and convert it back to oil, and carbon residue, while using the waste gas as fuel. There are many of these plants around the world doing just that, but not enough.
Incredible. MIT Tech review showcased PolyJoule in their article on 13th April
Thanks two bit, love the info.
5:50 What are the cations (that move between cathode and anode) in the Polyjoule?
I can't find anything on this, so I assume it's protons (H nuclei).
Batteries which are ideal for stationary applications are the present vital need. They free up Li for mobile applications and likely, because of this, would bring down the price of Li (supply and demand). Besides they will enable the faster production of EVs. There are a number of promising alternatives. There are the Liquid metal batteries from Ambri, the ZnBr batteries from Redflow and Gelion and a whole range of redox batteries based mainly on V and Fe. All should be cheaper than Li batteries once they have the production volume to bring down their cost. All are from readily available, inexpensive elements.
Hi Ricky!
Yes, the volume of these batteries is bigger compared with Li-ion kind, but do you know what is their weight proportion?!?
hey! Yeah they're less volumetrically and gravimetrically dense... but still could work for many applications
Such a fascinating topic! Can't wait to hear more on this.
Marine applications might be ideal for Polyjoule batteries
Even better if they would be made of ocean plastic - the shipping industry might be able to redeem itself then !
Lol, the ending made me laugh :) Had to re-watch it 3 times. Did you even held your breath? :)
Was that the task from Juan? :)
As always, makes me feel optimistic for the future.
That’s funny - I just thought they froze the frame 😂
The plastic in the ocean is actually pretty easy to clean up if we slow down our consumption of commercial fish, roughly 75% of the plastic in the ocean is actually plastic fishing nets and lines. Main question is can the plastic nets be recycled?
Would defiantly buy this for my home power storage, the size does not matter, only the price vs capacity and life does, also would be awesome to know if the Plastic Battery Requires any balancing hardware like lithium batteries do, or can you get away with a more simple setup like you can when you use lead batteries, i am very keen on learning this because i have had heaps of balancing hardware fail over the years, and i think this hardware is one of the biggest problems with lithium batteries.
Interesting. I think I misunderstood something. Isn't energy density supposed to be a measure of how much energy a battery can store by *weight*, not by _volume_? If I did have it wrong, what do you call the measurement that goes by weight instead?
Cause even if they are bigger in volume, if they're lighter and other factors work out well, maybe that old idea of making a vehicle where the frame and the battery are the same might be possible?
The top 3 oil companies made a machine that sucks carbon out the air. But, those corps also make plastics. So they polymerize the carbon back into plastic to add 5x value and to not compete with themselves. Fun fact: "Your carbon footprint responsibility" was a concept dreamt up by BP, to shift responsibility from the corporations onto you. Another fun fact: it's cheaper to buy virgin plastics than recycled plastic. So due to "fiduciary responsibility", these batteries will just add more plastics, especially if we went green and used them for storage. The irony.
If this battery is light enough it wont be a problem to make the battery pack twice the size, and limiting it to the city use. Specially if you can fast charge every time without problems.
One thing that frustrates me is so many of the new technologies you talk about are experiments in the lab. They look great and sound promising but don't hold your breath waiting for them because they won't be here for another 2-5 years. Please do an episode(s) on what was promising in-the-lab tech 3-5 years ago and did it ever come to market.
This can test our patience also.... actually we are trying to cover more now tech or much sooner to production technology than in the past.
So your suggesting a bit of a why it failed style video? do you have any examples?
We have also thought of doing something similar but about older inventions and why they failed and if they should be tried again.....would that be interesting ?
There must be literally dozens of applications out there that could really benefit from a battery that can discharge in 10 seconds. I can't think of one at the moment, but they must exist.
Electric drag racing cars. Wouldn't provide the same audible experience. But they'd still be stupid fast.
I hope they make it. But as of now, there are too many conditionals in this tech.
Why aren't deserts being used for solar cell arrays?
They are, but there are lots of places that aren't quite deserts, like Southern California, that are closer to the electrical loads. There is enough space in parking lots alone to meet the state's needs.
I think the range issue could be remedied by the battery's charging speed and charging infrastructure. I wouldn't mind stopping for 5 minutes every hour instead of 20 every 3 with current batteries. So what if the car only has a hundred mile range if charging is very quick. It's a problem that could be solved if we planned for this limitation. Imagine if charging stations were just pull off locations like chain up spots. Pair that with wireless charging and that quick charge would be a breeze. Pull over onto the plate, get out stretch the legs, and then carry on to your next stop.
Thanks for the Narrative. Keep up the great information
Looks interesting for sure. Keep up the good work
thanks for watching, and for the complement
Greetings from Guatemala. When I look at YT energy videos, I see enough energy projects that could be done in the next several years to keep plenty of people working, and have a bright economic future for many countries. When I look at YT political and economic videos, I see many forecasts of Europe in great economic trouble and in the dark this winter. I get the impression many economists do not follow the newest energy developements.
That could be an alternative for sailing yachts. I'm been thinking about a nickel iron battery bank, this could be a alternative.
This will reduce the pollution of plastic around the world, this is a break through, and help us to solve the problem of waste.