That was very interesting to watch. I love seeing just how well thought-out these mechanical devices are, and how even seemingly simple bolt rifles have a great amount of technical engineering that goes into the intricacies of their designs. Thanks for the late-night education. Cheers from the US
Check out the Bloke on the range Rates of fire disaster video. They have a Long Lee with a (Back in the day) filed down sear to get a butter smooth trigger pull....running the bolt military style the sear fails and the half cock stops the rifle from going off.
I’ve noticed the same design in the Mosin. If the bolt isn’t rotated fully closed, and you pull the trigger, it actually rotates the rest of the way closed as the striker moves forward.
excellent detail video , bloke, really well shot. thank the gods you use the the correct technical terms. never seen the gubbins on a k98 bolt, well informative, cheers.
Most 98 actions have an additional safety in the "wings" on the front of the firing pin that fits into recesses in the inside bolt face. The firing pin can only protrude if the bolt is in battery. The good old swedish mauser has a different take on the concept, a hole in the bolt body has to line up with a protruding lug on the top side of the trigger. You can't pull the trigger unless the bolt is in battery!
I can imagine someone having to remind Lee that his rifle would have to have an out-of-battery safety before he could sell it to an army because he seemed to love reckless handling of firearms and gunpowder. Most people would be careful after blowing themselves up a couple of times as a kid, but he seemed to not take the cosmic hint.
There's a lot of content out there detailing all the features of these old service rifles that made them so effective at shooting those guys way over there, but not nearly as many detailing the features that prevented them from maiming the guy using them if something went wrong.
I think that in the case of the mauser, the firing pin and bolt have such a geometry that don´t allow the firing pin protusion until the bolt is completely close.
This is the way I decock bolt guns. Not only robs the firing pin of energy to prevent a discharge it also prevents damage to the firing pin, especially in rimfires.
You made a minor mistake at the beginning. The ross mark 3 rifle solved the problem of being able to put the bolt head on 180. It was able to be done on the mark 1&2 and that video that is shown is ian from frogetton weapons with a ross mark 2 with the bolt head installed 180 and then fired. Thank you for your videos. Always found them interesting and helpful.
Great video. Thank you! I’ve wondered for some time: don’t the Schmidt-Rubin rifles do the same thing? It’s probably really hard on the firing pin, but it definitely rotates the sleeve into the locked position if the trigger is pulled while the bolt is partially out of battery.
In and out of battery is an old navel term for cannon. When fired ships cannon recoil into the ship, are reloaded and then need to be pulled using block and tackle so their muzzles are outside the ship again. Or in battery. A broadside of cannon. The last thing you want is a cannon going off while its still inside the ship, or out of battery. If the cannon goes off out of battery you get the muzzle blast and concussion within a confined space (the hull), with the burning scraps starting fires. Injuring the crew manning the block and tackle, in front of and to either side of the muzzle.. And the cannon may run into the cannon on the other side as it has no where to recoil too. and overturn both. (Or worse, damage a mast or fall down a companionway..) With lots of people in a confined space to be crushed by tonnes of run away metal. The shot may also hit your own hull or gun port, and throw splinters. The same applies on land with land cannon. but is less destructive. In a navel situation it can be very bad... (British understatement)
Boat floated. I also noted that the KAR98 bolt pattern you demonstrated is different from the one my grandfather liberated. More for me to research apparently....
Very interesting. From my experience, Swede Mausers (and I'm assuming all cock on close mausers) do not have these features. They simply won't fire because there is a fixed trigger lever that protrudes under the bolt bridge. If the bolt isn't fully closed, the lever will get blocked by the bolt sleeve and as a result, you can't fully depress the trigger. When the bolt is fully closed the protrusion of the lever fits into a notch on the bolt sleeve and the trigger can be fully depressed.
I took the AAs out of my lee enfield and it still fired. Are my out of battery safeties bad? *Edit : I remembered the mosin nagant has a similar safety to the lee's, once the bolt is turned past the first notch the trigger can be pulled, which forces the bolt down into battery before firing
Nope. That's how I decock all my bolt guns. I have tried it on a live cartridge and you can barely see the FP strike. But please note that NO bolt gun is safe to carry with the FP down on a live cartridge. Like a SA Colt revolver the FP will be sitting on a live primer and only requires a sharp blow to go off.
Never, ever, ever decock a rifle on a live round. Nor a single-action pistol that's not explicitly designed to do it safely. Ever. You're a knock or a drop away from it going off.
My odd brain now wants a discussion between yourself and Ian about such things, to include the Oerlikon's "pre-ignition" or "intentional out of battery" as I think he described it. Where the round is fired before the system has fully locked. Obviously a chunky 20/40mm round takes a little longer to get fully going than a .303 and the by-design aspect means it's not truly an out of battery firing per your description.
AFAIK the way the Oerlikon makes that work is the momentum of the closing bolt keeps the gun from having an OOBF from pre-ignition. And Ian has pointed out that OOBF's in open bolt SMG's rarely cause a catastrophe.
What prevents the cocking piece of the Lee bolt from rotating out of alignment with the bolt (and having done so, prevents the rifle from even getting close to locking into battery). You mention that the Mauser system does that with the neat little spring thing on the side of the rifle (which also stops the gun from spontaneously dissasembling while assembled), but I can see no equivalent mechanism on the Lee. Is this not as much of a problem as Ian says in his Type 13 Mauser video, or is there something I am not seeing?
The lug sits in the bottom of the notch in the bolt. You really have to try hard to rotate it out cos it has to ride up quite a way before it can be rotated.
Cock-on-open designs are inherently safe from out-of-battery detonation. If opening the bolt retracts the striker, then dropping the striker will close the bolt. Usually the round won't even go off because the striker loses all of its momentum. A cock-on-close gun does not have this inherent safety. On a pre-98 Mauser, the out-of-battery safety was a small dish milled into the bolt body along with a plunger that goes up into the dish when the trigger is pulled. If the bolt is not in battery, the dish is not in line with the plunger, and the trigger can't be pulled because the plunger has nowhere to go.
LE No4 cocking piece will fall into half-cock if you have a, say longer than normal case. Later ross rifle will not be possible to assemble wrong with a stud blocking the wrong helix track inside bolt, and ross does have out of battery safety(sort off). firing pin will not extend far enough unless bolt head rotate into position, and if you didn't push far enough, upon firing the whole bolt body will slam forward, eating away majority of inertia of that firing pin.
I would like you try that with a live round in the chamber. If you do tell me were are going to be , so I can send the medical personnel out to you. Not a good thing to show people who do not have a understanding of firearms safety
I have indeed tried it. On a range, with the rifle aimed at the targets. The bolt closes automatically and it just gives a light strike, and if it did go off, it would just go off as normal...
The minor mechanical details you provide is what I like most about BOTR
If only he could have integrated a spreadsheet into this.
Amazing how such simple mechanical features can be so important yet easily overlooked.
If it works properly, you'd probably never even know it was there in the first place.
Lol jic1 sounds like the government.
Now show the Vergueiro
ਬੱਲੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਵੀ ਇਥੇ ਦੋ ਦੋ ਮਹਾਨ ਸਖਸ਼ੀਅਤਾਂ ਤੁਹਾਡੀਆਂ ਵੀਡੀਓ ਵੀ ਬਹੁਤ ਵਧੀਆ ਹੁੰਦੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਮਾਈਕ ਬਾਈ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ
@@manjitsoni9676 i like your funny words magic man
An excellent description and demonstration.
I love the Enfield arrangement. I've loved it even before I've known it - on ballpoint pens.
Simple two click spring detent!
And that's why ballpoint pens never fire out-of-battery.
That was very interesting to watch. I love seeing just how well thought-out these mechanical devices are, and how even seemingly simple bolt rifles have a great amount of technical engineering that goes into the intricacies of their designs. Thanks for the late-night education. Cheers from the US
I'd like to see a range video to find out if they would still fire when the sear drops on a half closed bolt.
It won't. This is how I decock all my bolt guns. I've experimented and it won't even set off a rimfire.
Check out the Bloke on the range Rates of fire disaster video. They have a Long Lee with a (Back in the day) filed down sear to get a butter smooth trigger pull....running the bolt military style the sear fails and the half cock stops the rifle from going off.
I’ve noticed the same design in the Mosin. If the bolt isn’t rotated fully closed, and you pull the trigger, it actually rotates the rest of the way closed as the striker moves forward.
Nearly all bolt guns do this. It is the easiest and safest way to decock them.
Minor mechanical details are always interesting, that's the best thing of your channel
Very clear. Not a redundant detail anywhere.
excellent detail video , bloke, really well shot.
thank the gods you use the the correct technical terms.
never seen the gubbins on a k98 bolt, well informative, cheers.
Most 98 actions have an additional safety in the "wings" on the front of the firing pin that fits into recesses in the inside bolt face. The firing pin can only protrude if the bolt is in battery.
The good old swedish mauser has a different take on the concept, a hole in the bolt body has to line up with a protruding lug on the top side of the trigger. You can't pull the trigger unless the bolt is in battery!
And this is a Victorian era action on both rifles.
I'm impressed. Your Lee-Enfield tramp stamp was slightly less visible in this video ;)
Someones got to wave the flag.
Lol
Wonderful illustration of the mechanical genius of two great designers German and American!
I can imagine someone having to remind Lee that his rifle would have to have an out-of-battery safety before he could sell it to an army because he seemed to love reckless handling of firearms and gunpowder. Most people would be careful after blowing themselves up a couple of times as a kid, but he seemed to not take the cosmic hint.
There's a lot of content out there detailing all the features of these old service rifles that made them so effective at shooting those guys way over there, but not nearly as many detailing the features that prevented them from maiming the guy using them if something went wrong.
I think that in the case of the mauser, the firing pin and bolt have such a geometry that don´t allow the firing pin protusion until the bolt is completely close.
This is the way I decock bolt guns. Not only robs the firing pin of energy to prevent a discharge it also prevents damage to the firing pin, especially in rimfires.
Awesome Geekery Bloke! Love these vids. Keep up the great content!
You made a minor mistake at the beginning. The ross mark 3 rifle solved the problem of being able to put the bolt head on 180. It was able to be done on the mark 1&2 and that video that is shown is ian from frogetton weapons with a ross mark 2 with the bolt head installed 180 and then fired. Thank you for your videos. Always found them interesting and helpful.
Good point, have hunted with a Ross for years "sporterized and cost $19.00" if you put the bolt in correctly, a great strong reliable rifle.
The mauser firing pin has an additional safety that will prevent it from striking the primer if the bolt is not in battery.
Nice touch the Fass57 bajonett in the background.
Great video. Thank you! I’ve wondered for some time: don’t the Schmidt-Rubin rifles do the same thing? It’s probably really hard on the firing pin, but it definitely rotates the sleeve into the locked position if the trigger is pulled while the bolt is partially out of battery.
Yes they do - on a K31 the lug on the op rod takes a battering from it and can break off, leaving a dangerous situation.
Also the firing pin in the M98 is built that it cant reach the primer if the bolt is out of battery.
In and out of battery is an old navel term for cannon.
When fired ships cannon recoil into the ship, are reloaded and then need to be pulled using block and tackle so their muzzles are outside the ship again. Or in battery. A broadside of cannon.
The last thing you want is a cannon going off while its still inside the ship, or out of battery.
If the cannon goes off out of battery you get the muzzle blast and concussion within a confined space (the hull), with the burning scraps starting fires. Injuring the crew manning the block and tackle, in front of and to either side of the muzzle..
And the cannon may run into the cannon on the other side as it has no where to recoil too. and overturn both.
(Or worse, damage a mast or fall down a companionway..)
With lots of people in a confined space to be crushed by tonnes of run away metal.
The shot may also hit your own hull or gun port, and throw splinters.
The same applies on land with land cannon. but is less destructive.
In a navel situation it can be very bad... (British understatement)
Thats cool
I'm amazed at how much terminology has it's origins in the navy, turns out the term "loose cannon" has a similar very bad real life inspiration.
Great video! Learning more and more about my rifles every day
Boat floated. I also noted that the KAR98 bolt pattern you demonstrated is different from the one my grandfather liberated. More for me to research apparently....
Out of batteries? I have spare AAA's if you need them..
Flaming Hedgehog
Ok.... you'll see yourself out?
@@shaunbrennan5281 Of course, he doesn't have any spare AAs.
Ooh, I could use a Flak 88 if you've got one?
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 Ooohhh.. Nice choice Sir
Flaming Hedgehog
Indeed sir, however , the Bofors may be the choice for the lower flying hostiles wot.
Very interesting. From my experience, Swede Mausers (and I'm assuming all cock on close mausers) do not have these features. They simply won't fire because there is a fixed trigger lever that protrudes under the bolt bridge. If the bolt isn't fully closed, the lever will get blocked by the bolt sleeve and as a result, you can't fully depress the trigger. When the bolt is fully closed the protrusion of the lever fits into a notch on the bolt sleeve and the trigger can be fully depressed.
Thanks, very educational.
I took the AAs out of my lee enfield and it still fired. Are my out of battery safeties bad?
*Edit : I remembered the mosin nagant has a similar safety to the lee's, once the bolt is turned past the first notch the trigger can be pulled, which forces the bolt down into battery before firing
I once had an out of battery detonation of an M95 carbine. Would appreciate if the Bloke would do a video on that one.
Consider my boat thoroughly floated!
Question: If one pulls the trigger in an attempt to de-cock while closing the bolt is there potential for firing these?
Nope. That's how I decock all my bolt guns. I have tried it on a live cartridge and you can barely see the FP strike. But please note that NO bolt gun is safe to carry with the FP down on a live cartridge. Like a SA Colt revolver the FP will be sitting on a live primer and only requires a sharp blow to go off.
Never, ever, ever decock a rifle on a live round. Nor a single-action pistol that's not explicitly designed to do it safely. Ever. You're a knock or a drop away from it going off.
Is a Ross rifle that "exploded" due to wrong assemby of the bolt reusable when just assembled correctly or is it destroyed?
That video is in the Forgotten Weapons archive.
The bolt and bolt stop were damaged. One of the locking lugs on the bolt was sheared off by contact with the bolt stop.
Maybe using a primed empty cartridge would illustrate your point better? Great video , always interesting and educational. Thank you sir.
My odd brain now wants a discussion between yourself and Ian about such things, to include the Oerlikon's "pre-ignition" or "intentional out of battery" as I think he described it. Where the round is fired before the system has fully locked. Obviously a chunky 20/40mm round takes a little longer to get fully going than a .303 and the by-design aspect means it's not truly an out of battery firing per your description.
Although that system is a variation on blowback, so the breach isn't locked in the first place.
AFAIK the way the Oerlikon makes that work is the momentum of the closing bolt keeps the gun from having an OOBF from pre-ignition. And Ian has pointed out that OOBF's in open bolt SMG's rarely cause a catastrophe.
I've been a shooter for decades and after reading the title, my brain said, but they don't take batteries. What has lockdown done to my mind?
Yet they use chargers,
Can you go over the Mausers? I'm thinking about buying a Yugo and would like to see more that kind of rifle if you can.
Bring on the mechanical gubbins workings!!
What prevents the cocking piece of the Lee bolt from rotating out of alignment with the bolt (and having done so, prevents the rifle from even getting close to locking into battery). You mention that the Mauser system does that with the neat little spring thing on the side of the rifle (which also stops the gun from spontaneously dissasembling while assembled), but I can see no equivalent mechanism on the Lee.
Is this not as much of a problem as Ian says in his Type 13 Mauser video, or is there something I am not seeing?
ua-cam.com/video/l5d9HSysQqc/v-deo.html is the video of the problem happening on the Mauser
The lug sits in the bottom of the notch in the bolt. You really have to try hard to rotate it out cos it has to ride up quite a way before it can be rotated.
@@BlokeontheRange I think I get it, thanks!
Does the Mosin Nagant have the same concept?
An out of battery fireing happens quite a lot in rim fire .22cal when the headspace is too tight and gets slamfired when working the bolt.too hard
ਮਾਉਜ਼ਰ ਦੇ ਬੋਲਟ ਦੀ ਤਕਨੀਕ ਵਧੀਆ ਲੱਗੀ ਮਾਈਕ ਜੀ ਕਿਉਂ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਟ ਓਪਨਂ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਡ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਰੀਅ ਇੰਨਫੀਲਡ ਦਾ ਬੋਲਟ ਲੋਡ ਵੀ ਚੈਂਬਰ ਤੱਕ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਤੇ ਗੋਲੀ ਵੀ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਮਾਉਜ਼ਰ ਦੇ ਬੋਲਟ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਗੋਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਚੈਂਬਰ ਤੱਕ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਲੋਡ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਖੋਲਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਸੋ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਆਈ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਰਮਨੀ ਨੂੰ ਸੱਚ ਮੁਚ ਹਥਿਆਰ ਬਣਾਉਣੇ ਆਉਂਦੇ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਵੀਡੀਓ ਲਈ ਧੰਨਵਾਦ ਜੀ
Big smeging thank you for the explanation and the provided pictures.
Cock-on-open designs are inherently safe from out-of-battery detonation. If opening the bolt retracts the striker, then dropping the striker will close the bolt. Usually the round won't even go off because the striker loses all of its momentum. A cock-on-close gun does not have this inherent safety. On a pre-98 Mauser, the out-of-battery safety was a small dish milled into the bolt body along with a plunger that goes up into the dish when the trigger is pulled. If the bolt is not in battery, the dish is not in line with the plunger, and the trigger can't be pulled because the plunger has nowhere to go.
Well same as the lee bolt.
Nyet! Rifle is not fine. A broken firing pin can cause either gun to fire on closing.
Any chance of seeing the P14 / M1917 and Mosin next?
Great explanation . Thank you
My boat is, in fact, at full displacement and prepared to head underway.
I own and love both rifle systems...
Mauser bolt mechanism is complicated than most modern bolt action rifle, also included the cost .
How does it happen that some rifles (like b****) can fire as soon as the bolt is closed?
Broken firing pin will do that.
Information 10+, Presentation 2, very fidgety , has chap being selling you speed again ? 😁
Why wouldn't you use a patented hand, plastic, pokey to point with?
Because it's patented, and he doesn't have the budget to cover the royalties.
it floats my bloke
Mauser 1871 had this feature 28 years earlier than Mauser 98.
Excellent video it's the small details me like😁😁
I need to check out how the out of battery systems work on my bolt action hunting rifles
LE No4 cocking piece will fall into half-cock if you have a, say longer than normal case. Later ross rifle will not be possible to assemble wrong with a stud blocking the wrong helix track inside bolt, and ross does have out of battery safety(sort off). firing pin will not extend far enough unless bolt head rotate into position, and if you didn't push far enough, upon firing the whole bolt body will slam forward, eating away majority of inertia of that firing pin.
Lee Enfield appears to be far simpler and more elegant.
Reads title: Do they take USB C cables?
“Lee Out of Battery Safety” to me means faster way to shoot the gun. Much less rotation :)
Nah. Probably nah.
Firs time i see a fancy bolt handle on a k98k 😁
Mmmmm cylindrical cam tracks.
So most "cock on close" bolts are also slightly "cock on open".
Smelly system is lovely and simple. The german a bit over complicated.
Thanx.🇮🇳💯
Consider my boat afloat
I bet batteries for a century and a quarter old rifle are had to come by.
ill see myself out.
thank you .. but I think Lee-Enfield mechanism of lock not tight . mauser best lock
Have you watched the other videos?
Mauser is stronger, but Lee-Enfield is still vastly stronger than it needed to be for the cartridge it was designed for.
Boat indeed afloat. Cheers.
I would like you try that with a live round in the chamber. If you do tell me were are going to be , so I can send the medical personnel out to you. Not a good thing to show people who do not have a understanding of firearms safety
I have indeed tried it. On a range, with the rifle aimed at the targets. The bolt closes automatically and it just gives a light strike, and if it did go off, it would just go off as normal...
My boat is afloat.
Bloke, your Mauser has herpes. Get it help.
SMLE gang rise
"Helps force a sticky cartridge into battery" Like a forward assist on an M16.....? Apparently those are pointless.
No one said it was a good idea. Just that it happened
Too long winded
Please talk slower and enunciate your words clearly, it would improve the clarity of the video.
Other than that the videos are great. What is battery?
A firearm is in battery when the breeching mechanism (in this case the bolt) is in the proper position for firing, i.e. locked.
No