New version of this episode guys - to allow a minor edit. The 10,000 that viewed it before hopefully will not think it is a new video so apologies if you (subscribers) get pinged again. Regards, John and Eli
Very good comparison. 👍 Our Leopard 48 is so much more like a stretched 45 than a 50. But we do have the high bridgedeck clearance (1.04m according to the manual and a real 90cm loaded) and the "shallow" draft (1.47m) and the low boom aaand tons of space. We love her - she's a fantastic boat. ⛵❤
Bridgedeck clearance is a valuable spec. Thank you for providing the actual number! So often it is just reported the bridgedeck clearance is "adequate". Just as important can be the reserve buoyancy above the hard chine to dampen the hulls from dipping (bobby) into the waves. Narrow/long wet surfaces are great but once the waves hit, above the waterline matters.
A man after my own heart! A flare, shoulder or knuckle on the cat hulls are really important - also to increase space inside while reducing risk of burying the leeward hull and also pitchpoling (going head over heels in large seas if you bury your bow into the water when sailing downwind... For the bridge deck clearance it is really hard to find for many brands and that is why some of them are blank in spreadsheet in the next episode.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Your videos are the best! Bali with the solid foredeck and garage door is interesting. With the vacuum infusion process and carbon fiber, the weight factor of netting is less important. Cats tend to be a little stern heavy anyways.
Excellent Video, Thank You. My concern in going with larger boats is that you might lose the "joy of sailing" somewhat. I realize that's a very subjective quality, but do you feel like your experience (enjoyment/connectedness to process/excitement) of sailing is more subdued/numbed in the larger boat or would you say the sailing experience was similar between the two lengths?
Hi Matt, thanks for the comment and it's an interesting question. The sailing experience in both these boats is very similar and the pleasure of both is equal when the sails are up (or down). The downside of the bigger boat is more sail to pull up and more force on the sails when things go wrong or jam. And certainly entering marinas with only 2 on a 50 is more difficult if you can't get help from the pontoons... The upside of the bigger boat is better handling of really bad seas on the open ocean so for large ocean crossings the 50 is a bit more stable and more comfortable. So I think the actual pleasure of sailing in both is equal....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thank You, excellent info, I've really been appreciating your channel and I'm really excited to see how your boat build comes out.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 One other thing, I share your desire for the flybridge space without the cost (poorer performance). I would think there would be a sizeable market for some type of durable folding furniture that would store neatly below the boom while sailing but expand into a useable flybridge space (moving the boom to one side) while at anchor. If you hear of something like that let me know.
@@mattclark6482 Hi Matt, yes we were thinking of the simple loungers that are hinged and can lock in the up position but lay flat when lying or not in use. We have not seen full furniture sets that fold flat but that's a great idea - will keep my eyes open...
What you have missed is that if you double the length of the boat, the righting moment increases by 16 times. So longer boats go much faster than you would expect, especially as tje wind increases.
Hi Deerfoot! I am not a naval architect so you have lost me I am am afraid... If you double the boat length in a catamaran, you don't necessarily double the beam which is what controls the righting moment as I understand. But if the beam is then doubled if it is a proportional expansion, is that what creates the 16 fold increase? Also boat speed is limited by hull speed that is a calculation based on length and to sail faster, you need to plane so that then comes down to the hull shape and if it designed to do that easily... Please can you explain how you get the 16 factor.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Righting moment is the product of mass times the lever arm of centre of gravity over centre of buoyancy. If you double the size of a boat proportionately - so double the length and beam - the mass will be eight times larger. So the righting moment will be 16 times greater. Yes I know that larger boats are often not as beamy and this is one reason why - but it's a useful thought experiment. A larger boat can extract much more power out of a rig than you would think . Long narrow lightly loaded hulls do not really ever plane but they are also not as limited to "hull speed" which is a grey area anyway. Hull speed is often quoted as 1.34 multiplied by the square root of the waterline length in feet. While the 1.34 is arbitrary nonsense what this means is that if you double the length of the waterline then for the same power the boat will go 1.4 times faster, the "hull speed" being multiplied by the square root of 2. If you take into account the larger boats disproportionate righting moment increase as well as the hull speed increase then larger boats tend to go faster than one might expect. The downside is that the working loads also increase exponentially with size, and so become limiting quite quickly
Any boat you buy, you need to be confident with that boat as it is what means you live or die potentially. I still maintain that Leopards are far stronger and resilient than the other production cats and I am happy to be in the worst hurricanes in our Leopard while I would NOT in the other well known brands.... I have seen Leopard pounding on a reef for 3 hours and the bulkheads are still in place, sailed in 5o knots winds and 5m seas and they have behaved very well without any signs of weakness. Each to their own though. But we are obviously going to the strength and fire resistance extreme of aluminium so it becomes a but immaterial for us in the future.
A huge difference between the 45 and 50 are that on the 50, the water tanks are in the bilges not up front, this has a massive effect on the hobby horsing
Standard question thesedays to Leopard owners, have you, for any purpose, signed a NDA from robertson and Crain, Leopard or any other Parties in reguard to the purchase, warranty or repairs related to the boat ?
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Apparently there are some owners who have experienced significant issues in build quality from the period beginning 2020 through 2022 (covid rush jobs?). Things like thin hulls - so thin you could see light through the fiberglass. Cracked spars, etc. To get fixes, R&C made people sign an NDA. Those that refused got bad or no service (according to them), and several have taken to social media and UA-cam with their surveys, evidence and correspondence with the company. R&C were also looking to sell themselves (or rather, Leopard) at the time. Now that the sale is over, I wonder if the new owners were aware of the scale of the issues when they bought them?
Just been looking at leopard and what I found online about warranty issues I would not trust this brand at all.. Any potential buyer should just type in leopard warranty and see the experience one couple had with a new cat.. Shocking is not the word.. Criminal is.
We have had two Leopards and all warranty issues were dealt fairly and reasonably. For one person with one boat to have problems does not reflect the quality of the build of the whole brand. Also I would not have wanted to be out in that storm in the other brands that are not built as strong... But each of us has to make our own call and pay the price for that, one way or another.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Well it was never about the problems as all new things can have some.. Its more about the way these people have been treated and if that is not a true reflection caught on camera then I do not know what is... To put your lives savings into a dream and have that dream totally destroyed just because they would rather not deal with a problem or many problems is poor at best and criminal at worst.. Then to try and have UA-cam vids taken down and none disclosure agreements signed so these problems are not seen ... Well for me that is a reflection of the product and these company's. After all have we not the right to know about bad or faulty products ? The workmanship on this hull can not be a one off as its not even close to what you would expect... Not by a long long shot. Its like the boat that Jack built. Yes you expect some problems.. Reasonable problems and you also expect the companies to be helpful.. Polite.. understanding and have just a little empathy. These vids are over a 2 year period and they tell me all I need to know. See in business you are only as good as the worst you knowingly allow.
Hi RW, It is very sad that this one boat seems to have been fraught with so many issues but if I am going to put my LIFE in the hands of a production boat, I would want to be on a Leopard and not any of the other equivalent brands. Interesting that there are so few other boats with the issues described and we have certainly had excellent warranty treatment on both our L50 and the L45 we are on now. Also when problems are found on several boats, R+C take responsibility and fix them... Given that this seems to be an uncommon event and thousands of Leopards are circumnavigating successfully without boat issues, their sad story is not the norm. You also need to separate the OEMs (other equipment manufacturer) problems and after market (as brands do not cover those normally anyway) and not put those problems unfairly on Leopard. There is some lack of experience to understand these issues from these guys who are new to sailing too so it is understandable.
Thing is its not just one boat as they are having people sign none disclosure agreements. I do understand that other boats have problem and nothing is guaranteed perfect. This one boat had so many issues and most are pure shoddy workmanship. Its not like some people made a mistake its like they just cared less. As for the warranty this was very poor NO this was absolutely shocking treatment these people suffered and some conversations had been caught on cam showing just haw much these people actually do not care. Professional opinions when given on cam about the standard just made me think that cowboys had put this hull together. Now its not just my opinion based on nothing.. Its based on evidence. Bottom line for me is not the defects but how these people have been treated. Life savings for a dream boat leaving that couple in tears while these companies play a blame game passing the buck and trying to get away with this while even trying to make excuses like its normal. To confuse the couple with technical jargon. Its just plain wrong. Fact is this is a bad look because its true. I get some people love the brand I get that and why not ? I bet you would not have purchased if you had seen these vids pre purchase. I bet anyone seeing these will just not take that risk. Its not about bad work its about how a company acts after the fact.. When they have your money.
@Barefoot Doctors Sailing it new this year, it's a Lagoon 51 sail. I saw it on David shih video from the boat show. I think It has what you're looking for .
Size of a Leopard catamaran does not matter. The build quailty is so poor as to probably be deadly. If you buy one with all the available data you have no reason to complain when the boat bites you on the arse.
Each to their own - we have owned 2 leopards with no structural trouble at all and sailed across the Atlantic on one. I would still prefer to put MY LIFE on the line in a Leopard than in a Lagoon or Bali. I have never sailed in FPs so can't comment on them.
We have owned 2 Leopards, sailed them in extreme conditions and never had any trouble. they have a long history with hundreds or thousands of boats that are the strongest ocean cruisers in the production market and a handful of problems with a small number of people with troubles does not change the numbers and stats overall! We would not want to put our lives at risk in any of the other production cats!!!!
New version of this episode guys - to allow a minor edit. The 10,000 that viewed it before hopefully will not think it is a new video so apologies if you (subscribers) get pinged again. Regards, John and Eli
Dear @Barefoot Doctors Sailing ....what is the estimated delivery time on a Leopard 45?.... Thank you!
@@rauldempaire5330 I believe aL45 would be at least late 2025 or 2026 by now...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thank you
I enjoyed your impression of him vs her when having to jump around when docking while he does the maneuvering LOL
LOL!
Very good comparison. 👍
Our Leopard 48 is so much more like a stretched 45 than a 50. But we do have the high bridgedeck clearance (1.04m according to the manual and a real 90cm loaded) and the "shallow" draft (1.47m) and the low boom aaand tons of space. We love her - she's a fantastic boat. ⛵❤
Thanks for the info!
Bridgedeck clearance is a valuable spec. Thank you for providing the actual number! So often it is just reported the bridgedeck clearance is "adequate". Just as important can be the reserve buoyancy above the hard chine to dampen the hulls from dipping (bobby) into the waves. Narrow/long wet surfaces are great but once the waves hit, above the waterline matters.
A man after my own heart! A flare, shoulder or knuckle on the cat hulls are really important - also to increase space inside while reducing risk of burying the leeward hull and also pitchpoling (going head over heels in large seas if you bury your bow into the water when sailing downwind...
For the bridge deck clearance it is really hard to find for many brands and that is why some of them are blank in spreadsheet in the next episode.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Your videos are the best!
Bali with the solid foredeck and garage door is interesting. With the vacuum infusion process and carbon fiber, the weight factor of netting is less important. Cats tend to be a little stern heavy anyways.
Liked n shared...
Thanks very much!!!
Love your compare and contrast videos. Great job!
Glad you like them! JT . If you need more detailed info, we’re happy to answer your queries.
Thanks for your knowledge about boats
Glad you find it useful Manuel!
Excellent Video, Thank You. My concern in going with larger boats is that you might lose the "joy of sailing" somewhat. I realize that's a very subjective quality, but do you feel like your experience (enjoyment/connectedness to process/excitement) of sailing is more subdued/numbed in the larger boat or would you say the sailing experience was similar between the two lengths?
Hi Matt, thanks for the comment and it's an interesting question. The sailing experience in both these boats is very similar and the pleasure of both is equal when the sails are up (or down). The downside of the bigger boat is more sail to pull up and more force on the sails when things go wrong or jam. And certainly entering marinas with only 2 on a 50 is more difficult if you can't get help from the pontoons... The upside of the bigger boat is better handling of really bad seas on the open ocean so for large ocean crossings the 50 is a bit more stable and more comfortable.
So I think the actual pleasure of sailing in both is equal....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thank You, excellent info, I've really been appreciating your channel and I'm really excited to see how your boat build comes out.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 One other thing, I share your desire for the flybridge space without the cost (poorer performance). I would think there would be a sizeable market for some type of durable folding furniture that would store neatly below the boom while sailing but expand into a useable flybridge space (moving the boom to one side) while at anchor. If you hear of something like that let me know.
@@mattclark6482 Hi Matt, yes we were thinking of the simple loungers that are hinged and can lock in the up position but lay flat when lying or not in use. We have not seen full furniture sets that fold flat but that's a great idea - will keep my eyes open...
What you have missed is that if you double the length of the boat, the righting moment increases by 16 times. So longer boats go much faster than you would expect, especially as tje wind increases.
Hi Deerfoot! I am not a naval architect so you have lost me I am am afraid... If you double the boat length in a catamaran, you don't necessarily double the beam which is what controls the righting moment as I understand. But if the beam is then doubled if it is a proportional expansion, is that what creates the 16 fold increase? Also boat speed is limited by hull speed that is a calculation based on length and to sail faster, you need to plane so that then comes down to the hull shape and if it designed to do that easily... Please can you explain how you get the 16 factor.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Righting moment is the product of mass times the lever arm of centre of gravity over centre of buoyancy. If you double the size of a boat proportionately - so double the length and beam - the mass will be eight times larger. So the righting moment will be 16 times greater. Yes I know that larger boats are often not as beamy and this is one reason why - but it's a useful thought experiment. A larger boat can extract much more power out of a rig than you would think . Long narrow lightly loaded hulls do not really ever plane but they are also not as limited to "hull speed" which is a grey area anyway. Hull speed is often quoted as 1.34 multiplied by the square root of the waterline length in feet. While the 1.34 is arbitrary nonsense what this means is that if you double the length of the waterline then for the same power the boat will go 1.4 times faster, the "hull speed" being multiplied by the square root of 2. If you take into account the larger boats disproportionate righting moment increase as well as the hull speed increase then larger boats tend to go faster than one might expect. The downside is that the working loads also increase exponentially with size, and so become limiting quite quickly
Much appreciated researching now
Good luck with your search too then, Tina!
After watching Travel Sketch you’d be insane to buy a Leopard.
Any boat you buy, you need to be confident with that boat as it is what means you live or die potentially. I still maintain that Leopards are far stronger and resilient than the other production cats and I am happy to be in the worst hurricanes in our Leopard while I would NOT in the other well known brands.... I have seen Leopard pounding on a reef for 3 hours and the bulkheads are still in place, sailed in 5o knots winds and 5m seas and they have behaved very well without any signs of weakness. Each to their own though.
But we are obviously going to the strength and fire resistance extreme of aluminium so it becomes a but immaterial for us in the future.
Latest episode of Travel Sketch just further compounds production issues. Wouldn’t buy a leopard ever.. (I too went aluminium. Going with Odisea)
A huge difference between the 45 and 50 are that on the 50, the water tanks are in the bilges not up front, this has a massive effect on the hobby horsing
Thanks for the info - good point!
Standard question thesedays to Leopard owners, have you, for any purpose, signed a NDA from robertson and Crain, Leopard or any other Parties in reguard to the purchase, warranty or repairs related to the boat ?
No we have not signed anything like that... Why would we need to????
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Apparently there are some owners who have experienced significant issues in build quality from the period beginning 2020 through 2022 (covid rush jobs?). Things like thin hulls - so thin you could see light through the fiberglass. Cracked spars, etc. To get fixes, R&C made people sign an NDA. Those that refused got bad or no service (according to them), and several have taken to social media and UA-cam with their surveys, evidence and correspondence with the company.
R&C were also looking to sell themselves (or rather, Leopard) at the time. Now that the sale is over, I wonder if the new owners were aware of the scale of the issues when they bought them?
What an adorable couple!
Thanks, you’re very kind!!!
Just been looking at leopard and what I found online about warranty issues I would not trust this brand at all.. Any potential buyer should just type in leopard warranty and see the experience one couple had with a new cat.. Shocking is not the word.. Criminal is.
We have had two Leopards and all warranty issues were dealt fairly and reasonably. For one person with one boat to have problems does not reflect the quality of the build of the whole brand. Also I would not have wanted to be out in that storm in the other brands that are not built as strong... But each of us has to make our own call and pay the price for that, one way or another.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Well it was never about the problems as all new things can have some.. Its more about the way these people have been treated and if that is not a true reflection caught on camera then I do not know what is... To put your lives savings into a dream and have that dream totally destroyed just because they would rather not deal with a problem or many problems is poor at best and criminal at worst.. Then to try and have UA-cam vids taken down and none disclosure agreements signed so these problems are not seen ... Well for me that is a reflection of the product and these company's. After all have we not the right to know about bad or faulty products ? The workmanship on this hull can not be a one off as its not even close to what you would expect... Not by a long long shot. Its like the boat that Jack built. Yes you expect some problems.. Reasonable problems and you also expect the companies to be helpful.. Polite.. understanding and have just a little empathy. These vids are over a 2 year period and they tell me all I need to know. See in business you are only as good as the worst you knowingly allow.
Hi RW, It is very sad that this one boat seems to have been fraught with so many issues but if I am going to put my LIFE in the hands of a production boat, I would want to be on a Leopard and not any of the other equivalent brands. Interesting that there are so few other boats with the issues described and we have certainly had excellent warranty treatment on both our L50 and the L45 we are on now. Also when problems are found on several boats, R+C take responsibility and fix them... Given that this seems to be an uncommon event and thousands of Leopards are circumnavigating successfully without boat issues, their sad story is not the norm.
You also need to separate the OEMs (other equipment manufacturer) problems and after market (as brands do not cover those normally anyway) and not put those problems unfairly on Leopard. There is some lack of experience to understand these issues from these guys who are new to sailing too so it is understandable.
Thing is its not just one boat as they are having people sign none disclosure agreements. I do understand that other boats have problem and nothing is guaranteed perfect. This one boat had so many issues and most are pure shoddy workmanship. Its not like some people made a mistake its like they just cared less. As for the warranty this was very poor NO this was absolutely shocking treatment these people suffered and some conversations had been caught on cam showing just haw much these people actually do not care. Professional opinions when given on cam about the standard just made me think that cowboys had put this hull together. Now its not just my opinion based on nothing.. Its based on evidence. Bottom line for me is not the defects but how these people have been treated. Life savings for a dream boat leaving that couple in tears while these companies play a blame game passing the buck and trying to get away with this while even trying to make excuses like its normal. To confuse the couple with technical jargon. Its just plain wrong. Fact is this is a bad look because its true. I get some people love the brand I get that and why not ? I bet you would not have purchased if you had seen these vids pre purchase. I bet anyone seeing these will just not take that risk. Its not about bad work its about how a company acts after the fact.. When they have your money.
What about the new 51 that they are coming out with. I think that would be perfect or you guys
Thanks for the info Leanne but I have not heard of a 51 sailing cat by Leopard, only a power cat but please let me know if that is a new release.
@Barefoot Doctors Sailing it new this year, it's a Lagoon 51 sail. I saw it on David shih video from the boat show. I think It has what you're looking for .
😊
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Size of a Leopard catamaran does not matter. The build quailty is so poor as to probably be deadly. If you buy one with all the available data you have no reason to complain when the boat bites you on the arse.
Each to their own - we have owned 2 leopards with no structural trouble at all and sailed across the Atlantic on one. I would still prefer to put MY LIFE on the line in a Leopard than in a Lagoon or Bali. I have never sailed in FPs so can't comment on them.
SORRY CANT TAKE LEOPARD SERIOUSLY AFTER VIEWING QUALITY ISSUES
We have owned 2 Leopards, sailed them in extreme conditions and never had any trouble. they have a long history with hundreds or thousands of boats that are the strongest ocean cruisers in the production market and a handful of problems with a small number of people with troubles does not change the numbers and stats overall!
We would not want to put our lives at risk in any of the other production cats!!!!