The last Pagans of the Roman Empire: Who were they?
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
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Hello sebastian I want to make a deal with you as you see I want to work as a subtitle editor this means I will write what you are saying in the video by both arabic and English and this will boost your chanel so I need your WhatsApp to talk more about this and don't worry about the salary or the password of your chanel don't haste and take your time thinking if you agreed after a year from now you will find me
Man, I'd love a reference bibliography for this video.
Mani (and Crete is some extent) are truly the "Wild West" versions of Greece
Developing a strong sense of individualism, living in harsh conditions
Gun Culture
Cows, sheep and farms
People taking the law in their own hands
Gangs, Outlaws and Bounties everywhere
Vendettas and family feuds
You have no Idea how long it took for the Greek government to completely pacify these regions.
Some of those areas are STILL NOT pacified! 🤣👍🏻
Maniotes were also the vanguard for Greek independence against the Ottoman Turks in 1821. They had a tradition of vendettas amongst themselves, but would declare peace, on foreign threats. Many of our Greek founding fathers came from that part of the country.
I think you meant to say Arvanites, an Albanian race.
@@ariovistus313Arvanites are considered Greek. Albanians are ethnically Turks.
@@ariovistus313 it must be sad to belong to a race that never did anything
@@ariovistus313 Arvanites are a mixture of Hellenised Albanian tribes and Hellenes of Epirus. They are not Albanian.
Sure, keep believing Christian Greek propaganda. You will never be white.
I spent a year living in the Cinque Terre in Northern Italy and in many of the villages there are little shrines to Pagan deities and spirits. The fishermen are very keen on seeking the aid of the spirits by making offerings before setting out to sea and giving thanks for a good catch or a a safe return.
Tell me about it,
My co-author ~a devout Catholic~ keeps making me censor the things,
critical of either Christianity, or despotic rulers who happened to be Chrisitan.
Now the question is: should I keep the altered versions; and neglect my duty as a historian?
Or publish my uncensored version of the text, and end up lying to and offending my friend;
To me the historical integrety weighs higer than my friendship.
For the masses have the right to know their past.
Lie to the world because you are afraid to offend your friend, or tell the world the truth...
Which did you choose?
@@The-Nightwatch Ultimately the friend quit.
So I made a new version.
I’m a hellenist and I love learning about my ancestors history
The vandals also tried to invade mani but they were defeated by the inhabitants of kenipolis and some time later even the famed Belisarius visited kenipolis to honour the inhabitants and recruit soldiers for his future campaigns
Can you do a video about the last african romans? when did the romano african language vanished? how long did it survive after the muslim conquest of africa?
The eastern part of North Africa spoke Greek as well as Egyptian, but only the Army spoke Latin. The 20% who are still Christian speak Coptic, the modern version of Egyptian. There are thousands of papyrus documents in Greek from Egypt, preserved by the dry conditions. From the middle of Libya onwards, Latin was spoken along with Moorish. The settlement of Vandals had little impact, and Latin continued. We have several Latin poets in Carthage who praise the Vandal kings who restored baths and facilities. Victor of Vita, Archbishop of Vita, wrote a Latin book History of the Vandal Persecution, but clearly Catholicism survived. When Belisarius, the top general of Justinian, restored imperial rule in 532, rule continued in Latin. Heraclius, son of the governor of the restored roman part of Africa (Exarch of Carthage) was emperor until 641.
You might find interesting the Albertini Tablets which record everyday life in a village on the edge of the Sahara in the post imperial period, written in good Latin by a local scribe, recording property transactions and even a brides wish list.
By contrast, stilted Latin used in army records at El Djem in Algeria suggests Latin was not much in use.
If you mean by Africans, Sub-Sahara blacks then unfortunately I have bad news for you. There were no Sub=Sahara blacks back then on the north side of Sahara.. Africa was considered northern part of present day African continent. They didn't have the concept of continents. On the Roman maps Sahara was seen as unknown land " terra incognita" .
@@markdean1984I think it’s pretty clear from the context of the question, and the channel we’re on, that he’s speaking about the northern part of Africa where Rome controlled land. Only weird people think that African is a synonym for black, and I say that as an actual african from Kenya.
@@mugikuyu9403 thanks :)
This is what i had in mind. If you want me to narrow down the location i am talking about, i ment the province of africa proconsularis and both mauretanian provinces.
The egyptian part including cyrenaica where as mentioned bevore (thank you @Joanna-il2ur ) predominantly greek. But carthage itself was kinda the second biggest latin speaking city, Gordian I-III used it as capital and 4 emperors originated from this region.
So it was quite romanized, christianized and later african latin became a thing. So i would say we had a unique and interesting roman population in that region that seemd to vanish cause of the arab invasion.
@@markdean1984 Except for all the Periplus of the Red Sea which details peoples of Africa as far south as Mozambique.
This was an interesting period in history. Thank you for the compilation.
Imagine you told Basil II you are descendent of Sparta and worshipper of Apollo
Now imagine somebody who believes that, but successfully convinces Basil otherwise.
They fear public awareness.
@@SuperCulverin The J's?
@@wegfarir1963 Probably. Afterall the J's had to push an Abrahamic religion on the white world.
Egyptian Polytheism also survived quite long in Egypt well until the Islamic conquest. Despite the stereotype of Egypt as a centre of Christianity and Judaism, it still had its own indigenous religion until the Islamic period started.
Always amazed at the production value of this creator
Proud Maniot from my mothers side, proud Epirot from my father side. Great content my friend. ἔρρωσθε και εὐδαίμονείτε
maniots were slavs... he forgot to mention that
@@yiannimil1 Your view that Maniots are slavs comes from the misinformed 19th century German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer In 1830 CE, Fallmerayer presented his theory of disappearance of the Greek nation and its substitution by Slavs.9 Fallmerayer proposed that during the 6th century CE, large armies of Avars and Slavs overran the Balkans and eliminated the populations of the Hellas, who up to that period had successfully survived the attacks of barbarians and the religious suppression by the Byzantines. The Peloponnesean Greeks, except for few remnants enclosed in coastal castles, were slaughtered or forced to leave and Peloponnese was inhabited by Slavic tribes. Although 2 Slavic tribes did infact settle in the Peloponnese they were in very small numbers to change genetic homogeneity and in time gradually vanished both culturally and genetically. Fallmerayer’s views are considered extremely unscientific, based on prejudice and have been genetically discredited as I will explain. Not only the Maniots are not Slavs but they can be considered as one of the few (if not the only one) Hellenic groups to be characterised by a substantial genetic and demographic homogeneity. This can be illustrated through 4 main branches of scientific evidence, (1) Historically, (2) Culturally, (3) Linguistically and (4) Genetically.
(1) Historically
The historical evidence for the Hellenic homogeneity of Maniots comes (as stated in the video) from works of Constantine Porphyrogenitus, which is where we have this information from De Arte Imperiando 224:
The inhabitants of the district of Maina are not from the breed of the aforementioned Slavs, but are of the older Greeks, who are to this day called Hellenes (pagans) by the locals for being pagans in time past and worshippers of idols, like the Hellenes of old, and were baptised and became Christians during the reign of the late Basil (867-886). (Ἱστέον ὅτι οἱ τοῦ κάστρου τῆς Μαΐνης οἰκήτορες οὐκ εἰσὶν ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς τῶν προρρηθέντων Σκλάβων, ἀλλ’ ἐκ τῶν παλαιοτέρων Ῥωμαίων, οἳ καὶ μέχρι τοῦ νῦν παρὰ τῶν ἐντοπίων Ἕλληνες προσαγορείονται διὰ τὸ ἐν τοῖς προπαλαιοῖς χρόνοις εἰδωλολάτρας εἶναι καὶ προσκυνητὰς τῶν εἰδώλων κατὰ τοὺς παλαιοὺς Ἕλληνας, οἵτινες ἐπὶ τῆς βασιλείας τοῦ ἀοιδίμου Βασιλείου βαπτισθέντες χριστιανοὶ γεγόνασιν.)
Another historical evidence comes from their own tradition stating that after the Roman occupation of Laconia, many proud Spartan citizens loyal to the Spartan laws of Lycurgus decided to go to self-exile into the Spartan mountains of Mani and live with the rest of the Lacedaemonian inhabitants rather than be in an Achaean or, Roman service (Hellander 2008, p. 204.)
(2) Culturally
Maniots are vibrant with Hellenic culture attesting to their lineage.
As mentioned earlier and in the video, their stubborn adherence to Hellenic pagan beliefs until the 9th century (or possibly later) is a clear attestment of their demographic and hellenic homogeneity since the small group of Slavs settled in the outside slopes of the mount Taygetus to escape Byzantine rule, if not christinised had their own form of pagan religion, culturally different from the Hellenic.
Another evidence is that Maniots, similar to their Spartan forebears, were strongly xenophobic (even though they have culturally strong welcoming traditions for travellers as all greeks) and it has been observed that up until the 20th century they rarely married non-Maniots (Kassis 1979, p. 20.).
(3) Linguistically
The Maniot dialect of Modern Greek has several archaic properties that distinguishes it from most mainstream varieties. One of them, shared with the highly divergent Tsakonian as well as with the old dialects spoken around Athens until the 19th century, is the divergent treatment of historical /y/ (written ). Although this sound merged to /i/ everywhere else, these dialects have /u/ instead (e.g. [ˈksulo] versus standard [ˈksilo] 'wood') (Trudgill 2003, pp. 54-59.). These varieties are thought to be relic areas of a previously larger areal dialect group that used to share these features and was later divided by the penetration of Arvanitika settlement in much of its area in the late Middle Ages.
Other features of the Maniot dialect include the palatalization of velar consonants, i.e. the realisation of /k, ɡ, x, ɣ/ as ([tɕ, dʑ] or [ɕ, ʑ] before /i, e, j/. This feature is shared with many southern dialects of Greek, especially Cretan.
The fact that Maniots have a dialect directly derived from Doric and Ionic Greek with no slavic words is also a strong evidence of their demographic and genetic homogeneity.
(4) Genetically
The last and probably strongest evidence comes from a recent fascinating study published in one of the most respected scientific journals, Nature in the European Journal of Human Genetics (Stamatoyannopoulos et al., 2017). I suggest you read it. The study showed that Maniot individuals share on average 0.25% of their genome (or 35-36 cM) identical by descent, with 95% of pairs of individuals sharing at least one IBD segment. The Maniots differ from all other Peloponnesians by PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis. They also differ from mainland, island and Asia Minor Greek populations who have been compared by PCA analysis, but they "partially" overlap with Sicilians and southern Italians. This can be explained by the fact that Maniots (along with Tsakonians) inherited the lowest amounts of Slavic autosomal ancestry throughout the Peloponnese, especially the ones from Deep Mani. Namely, in the case of Deep Mani or Mesa/Inner Mani (22 samples) it amounts to 0.7%-1.6%, while in the cases of Maniots from West Taygetos or Exo/Outer Mani (24 samples) to 4.9%-8.6% and of East Taygetos or Kato/Lower Mani (23 samples) to 5.7%-10.9% of common ancestry with Slavs (Belarusians, Russians, Polish, and Ukrainians) respectively. The Slavic ancestry possessed by the latter two is five to eight times higher than that of Deep Mani but lower to the ancestry the other Peloponnesians (148 samples - excluding the Tsakonians) share with the Slavs, which even though low, it's still relatively higher than Maniots (and Tsakonians) at 4.8%-14.4%
[1] Hellander, Paul (2008). Greece. Lonely Planet. ISBN 978-1-74104-656-4.
[2] Porphyrogenitus, C. V. (1840). De administrando imperio (Vol. 11). Impensis Ed. Weberi.
[3] Kassis, Kyriakos (1979). Mani's History. Athens: Presoft.
[4] Trudgill, Peter (2003). "Modern Greek Dialects: A Preliminary Classification". Journal of Greek Linguistics. 4: 45-63. doi:10.1075/jgl.4.04tru. S2CID 145744857
[5] Stamatoyannopoulos, G., Bose, A., Teodosiadis, A., Tsetsos, F., Plantinga, A., Psatha, N., ... & Drineas, P. (2017). Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks. European journal of human genetics, 25(5), 637-645.
@@yiannimil1He just cited a source saying that they weren’t! 🤡
Your pronunciation of their Latin names is so good
He very likely is a native German speaker, hence the ease of pronunciation
@@N.EismannYeah I think he’s Swiss or Austrian. I think he mentioned in a video that he’s from the old Rhaetia province from the Roman Empire.
i didnt ask why@@N.Eismann
@@N.Eismann Why would being a native Germanic speaker make pronouncing Latin easier?
@@twoinchtape This is a public comments section. Nobody cares about you.
Very Informative!!! Much Gratitude Maiorianus!!!
Can you do a video on the vestal virgins? I tried to look up more on then but I couldn't find much. I would like to know how long the fire burned and how many times it went out only for the virgins to reignite it.
Personally, I would like to know more in general about them.
Uh Ted ed also make a video about it
I believe it died out around Theo I’s reign (late 300s). I am not sure though
@@Argo123_.0 the final chief vestal was sacked in 393. I guess that the fire went out hours later.
Another interesting video, love this channel
I anticipated he would mention these sons of Spartans, the Maniots! Ive readed about them, their history is fascinating, resilitent people. I learned about them reading about modern Greece during the war against the ottomans, how they never got annexed by the turks and were a refuge for Greeks escaping ottoman persecution.
This is the first video ive heard they mention them
i doubt they were any spartans left by the 2nd century ad
@@yiannimil1The Spartan city state was gone but their descendants never left the region.
Who were the last pagans of Rome ? I think some of the bravest people of their time.
Your first videos were very good, but these more recent ones are excellent. 👋👋👋Regards from Serbia. Wish you all the best. 🍀
Pagan community survives even if its become a diaspora of sorts of its own. We had a Quartz Lararium put in our home and we still honor the old gods. One day I'd like to have proper Marble 😄
Is your tradition uninterrupted ?
@@Shrivara132 I wouldn't say so
@Shrivara132 most aren't uninterrupted, but even if they aren't it's still valid
@@Shrivara132 As a Greek, and also as a pagan, the lines with actual worship of the Gods may have been interrupted for a few centuries/generations, but many Greeks, knowingly or not, still practice parts of those rituals and practices of our ancestors. My family still purifies ourselves with saltwater for prayer, be it to God or to the God's, for the Kalends, etc. Saltwater purification is a old way to remove Miasma from yourself in the face of the Gods.
@@noratheyandere6448 rituals do survive change of religion. I asked an ex Buddhist friend of mine about their procedure for rituals. He said that with minor differences here and there , they follow the Hindu method of making offerings . This is true both in Sri Lanka and the South East Asian country .
Ave cultus deorum!
Superb video, very informative and elegantly written and delivered
.
Great work 👏
Even as a Christian, I respect their beliefs, to those who still follow the old gods, I salute you for your commitment, and dedication. Holding on to what you believe even when a majority doesn’t agree is something to be admired.
Thats blasphemy in a way. We shouldn't support the following of any other "gods". There is only 1 true God. Do I respect the right to choose ones own path, however? Of course. This isnt Islam where you either convert or die.
@@finsfan90 He is simple following his own path without demanding others follow him. Jesus himself left "pagan" Romans alone and was mostly there to get Jews to stop doing bad stuff but then the Jews twisted it to force convert gentiles rather than to convert Jews.
@@finsfan90 i mean realistically there are no gods, but paganism at least means living with the natural laws and there's no eternal HR department judging your every move...
@@finsfan90that’s not how it is in Islam, either. Christians and Jews were allowed certain rights under Muslim rule and were not forced to convert. Of course, some were “induced” to convert, such as by granting converts access to higher positions or lower taxes, etc.
@@samernammari8785"not forced" but forced to pay special laws and forced their sons to pay blood tax.
Fascinating
Another amazing video. Gratia tibi ago, amice.
We are alive, and we are growing. Embrace the real faith🌞🏛️
Brilliant video!
I never knew of these people. Thanks!
I really love this video and appreciate the work you’ve done. I’ve been wondering for a little while now if there was anyone else like Julian, as it’s something not really spoken about. Then here you are. With all the answers
Julian was the last openly greco-roman pagan emperor though there were a good amount of later emperors who may have been crypto-pagan or at least had some sympathies.
@@user-ky4qq7pm1i Anastasius I (reigned 491-518) was the last Roman emperor to be declared 'divus' ('divine' or 'deified') upon his death. Scholars argue that by that time the term had a connotation closer to 'saint' or 'sanctified', but it is still telling that no emperor succeeding Anastasius was thus honored.
great video
Very good work!
I only knew that the Thracian tribe of Besi,was speaking their ancient language and following their ancient religion, untill the eighth century. Maniots are a remarkable case!
I suspect there were other remote rural locations where Paganism survived even longer, especially in the heart of Asia Minor.
Well in north west ireland, in a small islands there still worshiped an idol until 19th century. In a village in north norway too. In Brittany in France, still worshiped an idol of venus in the 17th-18thcentury. In Estonia, the setos still worship an idol of their main god Peko. And you have the mari people in Russia and various ethnic groups in the region of caucasus there still do pagan rituals. In conclusion, the paganism never disappeared, the christianization of europe actually were parcial and incomplete, and the other enemies of paganism (apart of Christianity) are secularism, the age of illustration, the age of industrial revolution and the atheist comunists.
@@JP-zz7en Communism came from Christianity actually, it was Capitalism that is Atheistic.
Love it... long live th Gods.... they return to live & breath.
Pagan is a term invented by Christianity. The new religion was mainly urban, so the influence on the countryside (pagus) was slight. Those who either didn’t believe or who had never heard of it were country folk, pagani. They did many different things and worshipped or gave cult to some of many different gods. There were no constraints and no orthodoxy. The emperor Julian (r. 360-363) wanted to create a pagan ‘church’ but never got the chance. Despite the terror of Theodosius (379-395) pagans survived. I would recommend The Darkening Age by Catherine Nixey, which you can get as an inexpensive paperback, which details all of this. Despite the terror, as late as the 590s locals in the alps were dropping votives into lakes every August, as Gregory of Tours says in his Glory of the Confessors.
I did not know that. Very interesting.
Nixey's book has been refuted many times. It's basically waste. Read Tim O'Neils blog and historians who have grilled her.
@@Tzimiskes3506 recollections may differ.
oh great, thanks white suburban Wicca lady. yuck.
@@Tzimiskes3506 She gives full sources in her book, nothing to refute.
Thanks To This Amazing Vídeo.
You forgot the pagans in Crete , who worshiped Artemis till the 10th century. As for your intro, you forgot the invasion of Alaric in Greece and west Illyricum who destroyed many temples and hunted pagans. You forgot the Theodosian massacre's against pagans. You forgot the end of Olympic games and the disbanding of philosophic teaches and colleges. The Byzantine law, untill the late days of the Constantinople, had a death penalty to pagans and those who try to teach pagan rituals.
Halló guys, I am a Mexican Pagan, my heart goes out to those leftover communities, I used to hate the Spaniards for what they imposed over the vanquished Aztecs, yet now I understand, after reading on the Albigensian genocide, that the heart of those conquerors was poisoned, how how just how much Human History would ve been different if on every century people would had been given free choice just like today when we all try to gather the crumbs of each peoples on earth glorious past, everyone seeing in the past a flawed ideology, I hope that we all agree in the great wisdom of our ancestors, and wish you all the blessings of Tlaloc in your everyday life 😎.
im sorry but the human sacrifices will stop
@@aetu35 exactly, that is correct, no philosophy or religion, justify that Human Aberration, you totally right, I did forget
It is always the worst people who want to dominate and conquer others. The Spaniards were ruthlessly brutal and greedy, but do you think the Aztecs were saints and angels?
Yeah, pre abrahamic peoples also engaged in war and genocide. So, paganism is not the solution. I'm sure many pre-christian romans and greeks would find mesoamerican rituals and theology as barbaric.
"Tlaloc"
No thanks, I don't like the idea of sacrificing children to a God in order to make him command the rain.
How do people make such great videos like this?
I really love your videos. I especially appreciate the ones about the transition from paganism to Christianity and the parallels with present movements. Could you put the videos into a play list so they would be easier to find. I look back on them often and sometimes have a problem finding them. Thanks for your videos.
@bastiat4855lolz ... roman and Greek pagans didn't....
By the way, burning " Witches " on the stake isn't that different from human sacrifice
Hi Sidibill, thanks a lot for your support :)
Ok, good idea, will do a playlist about that ! I think UA-cam is somehow making them hard to find, because in them, I sometimes critisize mainstream ideologies, which YT doesn't like so much, hehe XD
great content!
Serious question: If you were Gay and you loved Jesus would you be Gay for Jesus.
It's very interesting to see the history of Paganism and the rise of Christianity. From the Christian perspective, its a history of many years and decades of persecution and suffering, to eventually emerge victorious over the very people who were seen as persecuting you in the first place, then having ruled over them for well over 1,000 years.
From the perspective of Paganism it is one of great glory and tradition, at least for the first couple centuries, but then a slow and crippling decay. A history of constant retreat, with small pockets and moments of a promising return to the old ways, only for them to be crushed shortly after. Then after many long centuries of slowly losing your traditions, you find yourself as among the last of your kind, the gods and ancient culture of your peoples having been erased, forgotten, and ridiculed. Only to be replaced with a Monotheistic religion from a foreign land that has slowly been spreading itself across your society, for better or for worse.
Its incredible to see the 2 histories side by side and the perspectives of both sides, with neither being entirely right or wrong in their way of doing things. But one thing it does show, is that history and humanity churns ever onward, we are constantly changing, and nothing is entirely certain, one way or another.
There is a town near where I live in the South of the UK that is famous for being the last place in Britain to convert to Christianity (I mean famous by reputation, not by attested historical record). They still have huge bonfires and burn effigies one day of the year. It is one day in which the rest of the UK has bonfires, but the effigies they burn in the town are nothing to do with the regular Bonfire Night festivities. I think they are just using that as a cover for their own personal celebrations.
It's no big deal - let people do as they will - but it's pretty obvious there are still pagan hold-outs throughout Europe, even in this day and age. But our British pagans will be celebrating the Green Man and stuff like that, not the old classical gods.
Is it in Cornwall?
@@kimphilby7999
Nah, other side of the country - but I definitely know what you mean! ;-)
Isle of Wight by any chance?
@@ZachariahJ
There’s probably more pagans and Muslims in the UK now than there are actual practicing Christians, although that could just be how things look from the Internet.
@@goose4781
It's not the Isle of Wight, but I'm not going to name the actual town, because I don't want to get grief for slander, and the real point of my comment was about the continued existence of paganism.
We all know parts of the UK that would be suitable candidates! Scotland and the northern islands don't have the monopoly on the Wicker Man types.
Great show
Thanks!
Thanks so much for your kind donation, I really appreciate it :)
Hey Majorian fan, I am a Hindu from India and always interested in cross-cultural studies and comparisons to gain new insights.
I request you to make a video on the conception of time and the calendar system that was in use in Rome/Greece and the broader European landscape before a Christian conception of time and calendar was adopted.
Thank You ✨✨🇺🇸✨✨
Hey I get to catch this somewhat on time.
Again wonderful. Don’t change the music ever
I heard from a friend, that the Lithuanians were the last pagans, and were forcibly converted by the pope’s army’s.
The last pagans are the mari people in the republic of mari-el in Russia and they still practice their ancient faith without interrumptions and along with orthodox Christian or muslim religions. And other finno-ugric and uralic people too. And many people of caucasus like circassians, abkhazians and some goergians in isolated mountains villages.
Une autre très bonne capsule 😊 merci
I love your videos.
I wonder how medieval paganism of the Maniotes differed from BC times.
In think their worship were more folk and informal than organized.
Hellenism was never all that organized in the first place
The example of Agia Marina Theseiou, church dedicated to Agia Marina (see for example a 2005 article by Gerard V Lalonde, Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies 45 (2005) 91-125), a patron saint of fertility in women where women slid down a rock in a rite to aid fertility until some time in the twentieth century has been theorised as a pagan continuation and a Greek church or two used former cult statues to represent saint (the one I'm thinking of and cannot fully recall was so used until a 19C British scholar took the worn down statue to England where it's now not even displayed and the place where the church was is now a dull industrial zone.
Highly interesting comment as always Isaac, thanks for sharing this info !
It is a statue of Demeter in a village near Eleusis. They called her St. Demetra, I believe. The villagers protested that their crops would fail if the British took her away, but they removed her anyway and she is now in a museum in Britain. And yes, the area is now 3:48 industrialized.
However, christianization in greece mas mostly voluntary and many ancient temples, like parthenon for example, were converted to christian churches by the greeks themselves.
I thank the sun and moon for the life they give me...but they do not care.
The Maniates were NOT the last Greek pagans (nationals), the Tsakones, their relatives who live on the borders of Laconia, in Kynouria, became Christian, as they say today, around 1200 AD, 200-400 years after the Maniates! All this certainly at least in the public sphere since the circle of Georgios Gemistos Plethonos in Mystra (Lakonia) was also secretly pagan in the 15th century as revealed after his death in 1452.
Sources?
@@Texasmade74 Greenhalgh, P. A. L.; Eliopoulos, Edward (1985). Deep into Mani: Journey to the Southern Tip of Greece
@berserker5471 excellent now is it backed up by any other material?
@@berserker5471 I can't find a book summary
@@Texasmade74 It must have been sold out and not republished. That's probably why you can't find the work in English that I suggested. I have works by the Greek Historian Kostantinos Satha, but I'm not sure you can understand them if you don't know Greek. Google for Georgios Gemistos "Plitho" "Learn more here.
You should get way more watchers
Is there any book on Mani popular religion? Can't find one.
Hey Sebastian I love your videos ❤️❤️❤️ and I was wondering if you could make a video about Roman Mauritania Tingitana not many people talk about Roman controlled Morocco and I think it would be fascinating and also I’m half Moroccan 😂😂😂
Such is the way of religious history, the oppressed become free and become the oppressors, opposite happening to the prior oppressors
this channel is pure gold! I click on each new video instantly as they come
Buen video
Another major gi tis elias W
I'm not sure where I read this- but many years ago I read that there were hellenic pagans who survived in small cults on the islands of the aegean all the way up until they were conquered by the Ottomans,who upon learning about them slaughtered them all due to them being pagan.
Do you know exactly?
@@wegfarir1963 No, it was about a decade I read about it in either a book or a wiki specifically dedicated to pagans in Rome- it was a long time ago.
The story goes that an Ottoman soldier was shipwrecked and found on the beach by the native Greeks there- and nursed back to health by them, where he detailed that they seemed to be pagans and followed the old Hellenic gods- when he recovered he left and immediately reported them to his superiors, who organized a force to go to the island and kill & R@pe everyone there...
The polytheistic creeds went underground instead of openly worshipping and inviting the ire from those rabid zealots.
Interesting, a case of crypto-paganism, I recommend you read a book called "Ancient Greek Religion and Modern Greek Folklore" it was written by an English traveler during his stay in Greece and he collected everything he could about the folklore, traditions and stories of the Greeks who lived on the islands or in small relatively isolated rural communities, and he found that there were still elements, remnants and vestiges of that paganism within their popular beliefs, as an example he mentions that in those communities they performed an ancient ritual, a dance to make it rain and also mentioned an old folk healer who performed certain prayers where she invoked a triad of three entities (one is possibly Zeus) and says that lightning immediately struck and it rained.
An interesting tidbit - in Romanian mythology you have female spirits or fairies that are called either zâne(from the goddess Diana) or rusalii(which is the Slavic names for fairies) and are led by a figure called either Sânziana(from Sancta Diana) or Zâna zânelor(Fairy of fairies, or maybe Diana of the "dianas"). Now supposedly proto-Romanians were fully Christian by the time they encountered the Slavs, but I'll be damned if making Diana the leader of a bunch of Slavic fairies is not good old interpretatio romana.
Fine I'll go restore Pagan Rome in Crusader Kings
“There were Crusaders before ours, but they were done in the name of Jesus. Our was done in the name of Jupiter, funny how ours succeeded while theirs failed”
-Random Solider from the legions of @26CLT
@@gameover9390Yet they lost against ‘us’
These are high quality videos and I enjoy them. The romanticization of paganism is a dead end however. One benefit of Christianity was a centralization of truth which, though detrimental to decentralized governance, enabled the rise of scientific modernity. Like many people, I sometimes chafe at the constrictions of modernity, but a return to paganism is not a real alternative, although it does allow some to dream and to blow off steam.
Neopaganism is more of a fashion, a counter-culture and ideological movement rather than a religious one, and it has more to do with modern and post-modern ideologies such as romanticism, idealism, nationalism, indigenousism, environmentalism, animalism, vegetarianism, veganism, feminism etc The truth is that many of their "rituals and ceremonies" (if they can be called that) are cringe, they feel empty and very artificial, apart from many neopagans (I'm not saying all of them) but many are profoundly anti-Christian and in the end they ended up for become those who swore to destroy, criticizing Christians for being dogmatic and fundamentalists when they are the same or worse (especially if they have feelings of racial superiority and xenophobia).
I believe that if that "paganism" could be returned to in a natural and organic way, I say this because many groups of people who for X or Y reasons were marginalized (not only by secular authorities but even by the church itself) and They were forced to adopt a relatively isolated and even semi-nomadic lifestyle, many of them only having a rather superficial, poor and precarious knowledge of Christianity and without access to Christian literature, priests and churches, many had to figure out how to satisfy their needs. spiritual needs with the little they knew and in the end the result was that they followed a religion more similar to paganism than to Christianity, through an empirical knowledge of nature, experience and living isolated from the rest of the world, creating their own worldview particular and unusual stories, myths, legends, and ceremonies and rituals. Examples of these groups are: Vaqueiros de alzada, Forest finns, Irish Travelers, Hutsuls, Circassians, Abkhazians, some Georgians, Ingush, Hidden Christians in Japan, and Mongols. They basically went through a process of de-Christianization due to isolation.
@@JP-zz7en Agreed. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Maniotes are the Florida man of Hellas
Very interesting, thanks, but Im missing the sources (the text of basil for example). It would be nice if you write them down
Love the ai work
Sooo interesting, the 1st 500 years of the Middle Ages had much more pagans than i thought
The thing is about Paganism is that its gods are archetypes instead of "a creator of all things and judge of ones worthiness". One communicates with prayer and the other with ritual, for the most part. Both provide a means to address unseen forces, inconceivably hard to understand by humans living back then, and thus help us humans and our active imaginations rationalize their earthly environment... except the goal of each is radically different from the other. Not really the same at all but both provide spiritual nourishment.
Wrong.The Gods can't be mere archetypes and yet be contacted through ritual and worship as archetypes are not real entities.
I wonder if presence of the troublesome Slavs (also Pagans) on the Peloponnese was a cause for the empire to renew its christianization efforts and convert the Maniots along with the Slavs.
Very interesting video.
I’ve long suspected that the Cathars and Albigensians also represented pockets of pagan remnants in France.
Do you know of any historical research that confirms or disconfirms this suspicion?
Regardless, thank you for this video.
The catars and albaginesians only were heretic christians but not pagans. And i found that the last remanent of paganism in france is Brittany (there still worship a statuen of venus in 17th-18th century) and maybe the pyrinees region between spain and france
We must protect the indigenous peoples of Europe and resurrect her old ways. Hail the gods, hail our folk.
I think that AI art is good in these kind of specific videos where stock photos are super limited. Nice informative video though.
What artifacts do we have of the Pagan Maniots?
none
The Alfather is in all of us, strength and honor.
Earned yourself a sub lad
They were Heroes!
Love your channel. Please consider a German channel of this content, which i could show my daughter. Why's the best stuff always in English
The Stradiots from Epirus and Peloponnese in Greece who served as marchinaries in Italy and others kingdoms in Europe, at most was Greek Gods worshipers, and until the late 19th century it is known that they organised into secret brotherhoods.
I would like more information about it.
Very interesting post, I was unaware of the Maniotes. I am curious about Pagan doctrine. Christianity has the Bible, Islam has the Quran, Judaism has the Talmud, etc. Most people are familiar with Greco-Roman mythology but those are considered entertaining origin stories about the gods, not a guide to how to live life. Was Greco-Roman law and philosophy derived from Paganism or was it developed independently? Interesting that Christianity did not do away with the philosophy or Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius (among others) and their works are still relevant today. Thanks!
Even though our world today is very secular, it has over 1000 years of influence from the Abrahamic religions. So when thinking about religions we think of a great monotheistic deity, rules to follow, holy books, eternal afterlife, etc. The Pagan religions of the Ancient World were far different. It was more of a sacred tradition than an actual set of dogmatic beliefs that covered most of their way of life. Different communities may have had different views on their main deities they worshipped, what they believed after death, and the rituals they performed. Things like Law, Philosophy, etc. while it may have had influence from their religions, were mostly developed independently.
And as far as Christianity preserving Greco-Roman philosophy/works, it should be noted that the only reason why it survived was because Christianity. Like the other Abrahamic religions, it is a very book-based religion and places great emphasis on literacy. And because in Late Antiquity, Christianity was adapted by the elite, it became the jobs of the monks to preserve those classical works.
Thank you for such a well thought out answer. Perspective is so important to understand history!
"Pagan" is an umbrella term and you have personal worship of particular deities and the ancient world had different mystery schools and initiations similar to modern Hinduism for example having different schools with different main deities etc
It depends
@@Erdwick Great and simple description of what paganism was in the Ancient World. Had Christianity never took hold, religions in the Mediterranean World would be a lot like religion in India or China. Vastly different set of supernatural beliefs that are strongly tied with tradition. With a strong philosophical and legal tradition outside of religion to guide their society
I heavily "suspect" that the eastern emperor Leo I., who reigned 457-474, was a pagan too in his heart, despite him usually being portrayed as a christian (which maybe he was "officially"?) Just look at whom he supported: Marcellinus of Dalmatia whom you mention in this video being openly pagan; it was Leo I. who appointed Anthemius, the western emperor who wanted to reinstall paganism. Also he didn't recognize Majorian's successor, Libius Severus, who was a devout christian
(and who's first official act was to abolish some of Majorian's laws concerning inheritances left to the Church). Aegidius in Gaul too didn't recognize Libius Severus, but he recognized the eastern (!) emperor Leo I. I'm sure there are even more examples ...
Well, there were plenty crusades within Europe in the medieval ages and the witchhunts came right after that.
I suppose the old religions lived much longer than most people think.
Still do
@@wegfarir1963The European mind has always and will always be pagan. No matter what vernier you put over it
@@proudsaiyanprince2651that’s most humanity because of there rebellion. Pagan Europe was ruthless in Rome and stupid for the Germanic people.
The fifth and last crusade was in 1295. Witch hunts were in the 1600s. A bit of a gap.
@@Joanna-il2ur Last Crusade was in 1444 at Varna.
Maiorianus, this is fascinating, but I think you commit a fallacy when you conclude that the case of the Mani people proves that everyone else converted by force. There seems to be an element of resistance in general in their case (see their role in resisting the Ottomans), so it makes me wonder: had paganism been forced on them, would they have resisted that instead?
I'm curious about the AI workflow being used for the art on this channel. Is it being generated and touched up by artists who have been practising the software, or is it raw? I have enough of an eye to tell that it's at least part of the workflow but the quality is better than the average usage I see. Do you have access to some model specifically trained to produce classical imagery?
I am impressed by the images produced, is it AI images
Did the Slavic tribes push people out of Greece or were lands they migrated to vacant?
When I am Weaker Thn You, I ask you for Freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am Stronger than you, I take away your Freedom Because that is according to my principles.
Were there any violent sects of post-constantine Roman pagans? They would make an amazing analogue for a theory im building I just gotta know
No
It was an informative and wonderful introduction video about that remarkable matter in Christian ✝️ religion history
You didn't watch the video much less understand it
2:02 Sort of looks like an elderly Joaquin Phoenix.
Let’s consider certain things the Pax, Romana or Roman peace disappeared around 400 A.D. to 500 A.D. with the fall of the western Roman empire
People had donkey carts they rode horses they walked. They didn’t have bicycles certainly didn’t have motor cars. They didn’t have electronic communication or wireless communication.
People who would choose to believe in the old, pantheon, gods and worship them, could not be monitored and corralled and casual in an overwhelming way to force them to outwardly worship in a Christian style, especially when the western Roman empire had so disintegrated in a way that enforcement of peoples actions and beliefs were the last thing that I dwindling Roman empire at its government could afford to do
There were sects of Christianity that were worshiping away against a force hierarchy of belief systems that existed and thrived during the same. Period
It’s naïve to believe that pagan worshiping gods or polytheism just disappeared. It didn’t people still try to resurrect this belief system.
A good example this is go to places in Scandinavia, like an Iceland, or in the Baltics and people are resurrecting. They’re non-Christian belief systems as aA good example this is go to places in Scandinavia, like Iceland, or in the Baltics and people are resurrecting their non-Christian belief systems as a style of life
The mani where not pagans in the greek-roman meaning of antiquity but at the time an contemporary middle-east ("magic") new religion like christianity competing with it and finally absorbed into it. Its teachings are still present today in the West mostly in protestantism. The catholic church eliminated most of its elements. Read Spengler!
11:07 The AI-drawn women has six fingers per hand 🤣🤣
The Yazidis