The GPU value in the hud is the HUD is frame time in milliseconds, not % utilization. A more meaningful evaluation of the performance left on the table is the differences in performance from game to game. Stay tuned for the whole video becuase there are a few big surprises - LS
Great video. Though now I’m wondering for cyberpunk, how is it that you’re getting only ~10 fps at 720p on an M1 Ultra when on Andrew Tsai’s channel he’s getting ~30 fps on an M1 max at 1440p on med preset? ua-cam.com/video/HlYn2fVfl1M/v-deo.html
Linus if you need help putting this video let me know, I am pretty good at getting good gaming performance on Macs. You should have way higher framerates and compatibility on your games.
@@szaszm_ MS has had an emulator for quite a while, but as you said it performs awfully. Apple's emulator doesn't rely on any Apple-specific CPU features though - the Linux build (which is intended for VMs on an M1) can even run on other CPUs
They merely took a shortcut. They are a multi-trillion dollar company, if they wanted to spend the time & money to develop a port 100% for themselves they would have & easily could have.
@@Camper_Samu important being "if they wanted to spend the time & money" we all know this is something Apple just threw together to make the people asking for games on Mac quiet for a bit. They could really careless how well it works, it's more for optics I think. Like a "see we care about gaming" while not actually doing anything. Truth is, Apple is obv. focused on turning Apple computing into a AR/VR direction. You can clearly see this because it's not just a VR headset, they specifically barely mentioned VR & talked a lot about AR & the ability for the headset to handle 2d screens straight out of the box. They clearly see the headset replacing the Mac (at least the base models) in the future.
Not 100% true as Valve just expanded on work already been done but the main thing is valve have the money to get real action done in a much faster time frame rather than just mostly people coding in spare time, so credit to valve for risking its own money.
I think if Apple truly cared about gaming on macOS, they'd add a Vulkan backend to their graphics driver. Getting a developer to write a Metal renderer, which only Mac users would benefit from, is probably a way harder sell than a Vulkan renderer, which would work on Windows, Linux and macOS.
I honestly think this should be brought up more. If they simply supported Vulkan instead of forcing everyone to use Metal, it would just make the platform far more open to porting and give more performance when running non-native Vulkan games. That's not even mentioning that DXVK ALREADY EXISTS so D3DMetal is basically just starting over from scratch.
It's actually really simple, Apple has always intended to be a walled garden, and still seems to stay they way for the foreseeable future. They say flat out in their documentation and even in the press event that this method is intended for devs to test certain things before doing a full port, not for actual user gaming. The fact as Linus mentioned about still having a hack compatibility layer over 30 years in for something as basic as non-Apple printer drivers tells you all you need to know about their corporate culture.
If they truly cared about gamers they would not have banned Nvidia drivers and removed thunderbolt eGPU support in the first place. They don't care about gamers, they care about their money. They don't want gamers, they want slaves.
@@l0zerth at least printers work on Apple Silicon… can’t say the same for Windows running on ARM. Most printers don’t work on the Window ARM version and printer companies haven’t added any support in the roughly 8 years that Microsoft has had an ARM version of Windows.
@@l0zerth Not always. They used to support OpenGL and even X11 back in the day. Now they have the upper hand, they don't want anything in common with other platforms.
There seems to be an issue with the game porting tool kit and the ultra chips due to it being 2 M1 Max chips together, others have got higher performance from lower chips
Do you know if this is a problem with the just M1 Ultra? I’ve heard that the M1 Ultra is actually 2 M1 Max chips stuck together but in hardware parallel which might explain this issue , whereas the new M2 Ultra is supposedly done in the proper way so that it actually doubles performance
@@spencerrr9878 yes the m1 ultra has a lower cache bandwidth so it has some issues with unoptimized apps, the m2 ultra is upgraded and has a higher scaling for there core counts
@@TrestonDodd All three of you seem to have overlooked the fact that these technologies and Operating Systems have ONLY JUST BEEN ANNOUNCED, and are STILL IN DEVELOPER PREVIEW stage - They ARE NOT IN A CONDITION TO BE USED BY THE PUBLIC, because a lot of work still has to go into them…The reason why DEVELOPER PREVIEWS are released, is so that APP developers can get a head start updating, fine-tuning and otherwise tweaking their already existing apps, so that when the new versions of the OS release, everything is ready to go….Developer Previews - ESPECIALLY THE FIRST ONE - Are not meant to be an indication of the final product in any way at all…In fact, they’re the opposite: They’re an indication of how something will run in the WORST POSSIBLE conditions…A real world description is: Disconnect the ECU from your car’s engine, run it like that for a bit, and then compare it to a late model BMW M3…The difference is so severe that it shouldn’t even be a thing…Linus is just showing WHAT IS COMING and what it’s capable of…Not what is here and now.
@@ncard00 They are testing on an M1. Plz stay awake while watching a video. Still 30 FPS is to cry. My Linux gaming rig pulls 100 FPS on Cyberpunk 2077 easily.
The number of translation layers for this is pretty hilarious. When playing something DX11 you have DXVK, MoltenVK, Wine and Rosetta between the game and the hardware.
As a gamedev who used to be an avid Mac user... yeah Apple sometimes says one thing then does another in regards to gaming. Keep in mind it's a big company. Like there seem to be pockets of folks in the company that have tried to make the platform more viable for gaming as far back as the 90's with stuff like Game Sprockets. Then there are folks that seem almost embarrassed that Apple devices can be used for something as juvenile as games. Jobs infamously had commented on how games made the Mac look unprofessional.
I think many of the people who had those views have since left or are not longer in positions that have insouciance over the Mac, apple have been hiring in the space rather aggressively over the last few years. that said do not expect them to ship a plastic cased Mac book with RGB
On the other hand Jobs proudly presented Halo on the MacWorld on a Dual PowerMac G4. Unfortunately Microsoft saw it and bought Bungie to finally have an exclusive release title for their upcoming Xbox.
@@sinigangpapi3379 Okay but he barely does any research anyway... He's the face of LMG, he employs people (or used to) to manage all that. He doesn't really use Apple for anything, since he likes being able to try new hardware in his computer without buying an entire new computer... Just as I like paying for a license on Google Play and giving them a cut of my earnings instead of paying $100 per app, and giving them a big cut of my earnings.
Hi! It's Isaac, I'm working hard on smoothing out the issues with Whisky but as always Wine sucks to work with as a library. Hoping to have everything working smoothly in a few weeks ❤
What Linus had with not hitting things in Elden Ring is called “aim punching”. It’s to do with hit boxes glancing off each other, it’s a known bug and can cause people to lose multiplayer matches. Funny when you’re on the winning side, not really the other way round.😊
AAA broken mess as always :) I wish I could actually like that game, but in the state it's left feels like a waste of time... I swear an audiobook of the lore feels like a better use of my time.
@@Cull_Obsidian Both on Windows and Linux I get terrible input lag and frames for a 3080 + Ryzen 5800X combo, with stutters and minor graphic issues (eg. shadows flickering, even with RT on) that make me nauseated after every session; I tried some mods to fix the issues, it somewhat helped but it wasn't enough, so after playing some seamless coop I dropped the game because it was literally a pain to play, specially considering all the bugs and just frustrating inconsistencies put there for literally no reason outside of the developers not knowing how to make a game engine (both in single and multiplayer). I am not the only one having issues, some of my friends in my friend group suffer from bugs and issues like mine and InfernoPlus' coverage (+ some personal research) of the engine From Software uses for their souls games gives me some clues to why this game has so many issues and as a developer myself I find Elden RING to be complete ass on a technical level (and I repeat, on a TECHNICAL level). I enjoy more looking at UA-cam videos on the game and enjoying it that way, Ymfah and Albino make great content on it from time to time for example, but for a AAA release that got entitled as GOTY this is just outrageous. If this sounds harsh or looks way too verbose, it's because I've had this argument several times on the internet and I found that disclosing everything immediately is the best way to dodge a toxic discussion, I am not saying that all Elden Ring is trash, but on a technical level it's close to being straight up trash (which doesn't define the game in its integrity).
there _is_ a Linux distribution specifically for Apple Silicon called Asahi Linux and they recently put together a GPU driver as well, would love to see you guys compare gaming performance using that
It's quite weird that Apple dropped their support for gaming eventually as this was something that was important for the success early Apple Computers (like Prince of Persia).
@@MaxLittleBuddy Imagine the weird alternate reality where the original Xbox completely flopped, because Halo was an Apple exclusive, and instead we got an entire family of Apple Pippin console generations.
@@MrGamelover23 some say the game would be ported to windows later because it used OpenGL. But this is what we get and the Gearbox port is very shitty despite Xbox use DirectX
there is a community port for FF14 for mac, which actually runs way better then the native Square enix port of the game, I`d love if you could look into that approach, since it works perfectly well and works even better than what the developer does
@@raracool04the official “port” of FFXIV is based on an old version of Wine without really any optimization. XIV on Mac (the 3rd party launcher) is constantly kept up to date, and iirc is based on Crossover, resulting in about 2-2.5x performance. Went from 20-30fps to solid 60-100fps with Reshade enabled. It’s great for gaming on the go.
As a game developer, I remember when Apple counter programmed Game Developers Conference in 2011 and 2012 to announce their iPad 2 and 3, respectively. They even took the time slot of Iwata-san during his very influential keynote in 2012, and dominated the press for that day for an iPad refresh. Kinda not surprised that they are half-assing their implementation of the translation layers and offering zero support outside of their developer portal. Great breakdown on this video though! Showing the work that Apple still needs to put in to make sure they can actually run games properly.
Tbf at the end of the day it will be up to developers to make the games on Mac ,if developers feel like it’s not worth it to make games for macOS there is not much you can do
So there is a lot more to the porting lookout than the wine based tool they showed in this video. And apple do have DTS teams that can help the trick is just like Sony or MS you need to get their attention.
@@hishnash I agree that Apple does have DTS teams, and their developer agreement allows for 2 help incidents per year, but in my experience, it's only been help on the iOS side of things. When I was helping sunset Rocket League on Mac/Linux, one of the major reason for stopping development on the mac version was the total lack of support for MacOS, as opposed to iOS. Same for Linux. There were other reasons as well, but the main reason was the support. In any case, Apple tends to only help/support Middleware (like Unity and Unreal) or developers who make highly requested, or blockbuster games. It's the reason why Kojima was part of the gaming announcement this last week.
As a PC gamer, I REALLY want gaming on Mac to take off. It could incentivise game devs to make games for limited hardware again. The only area we really see small game files with anymore is the Switch. Game devs cant expect Mac users to buy an upgraded model just to play their game.
Well they don't really need to, developers tend to target a common baseline. The Steam Deck I think goes a long way in getting Devs to optimize for that hardware profile for example. If a game is optimized for Steam Deck, there's little reason it can't run just as well on a powerful enough Mac once Devs optimise it further.
The majority of mac users I know; they upgrade all the dang time, for overpriced hardware. I think the linux proton path is the most likely path for gaming in the future, as windows gets more locked down. Time will see though.
I was also really surprised. It's so cool to have trans representation in LTT now. The fact that she's so accepted there makes them even more sympathetic to me
@@lizkeres2593 well, if you really think about it, we always did. We just didn't know about it. I'm glad she's able to come out and with such a supportive employer not for the sake of trans people, but for her own benefit. 🏳️⚧
As much as i would like for this to be an open source solution that both apple and valve will work together on. It won't. And historically Game devs hate porting their games. There is a reason why the steam deck was a success.
Hate porting? there are many PC games that are console parts, switch games that were ported etc......The game porting toolkit is a first step in the right direction.
@@kninezbanksthey port to windows because that is historically the only platform on PC that matters. The only reason steam deck is so popular with devs is because they don't need to port stuff. They might need to change a few default configs, might need to patch some bugs specifically for WINE. Other than that they can just use the Win32 build which has proven itself to be the most stable API.
@@tato-chip7612 It doesn't matter game developers still make many games for console then port many console games to PC, porting is not abnormal, it's very normal. Game dev's are just lazy these days, we can't keep asking which comes first, chicken or egg. For a very long time, the biggest problem with apple was the lack of powerful hardware....most macs were weak for gaming and had integrated intel graphics. Apple now has powerful hardware in their base laptops and Ipads that can run AAA games like resident evil village fanless. They've now given devs the tools to more easily port games over. Apple has done all they can, there are now tens of millions of apple silicon potential gamers, metal api, porting toolkit. It's all up to the developers now. No more excuses on their end. They aren't like windows where an OEM builds a machine like; OEM: Lenovo/MSI/Razer/Asus/Dell...etc CPU: Intel/AMD GPU: AMD/Nvidia OS: Microsoft API: DirectX/Vulkan (Open API) For Apple it's; OEM: Apple CPU: Apple GPU: Apple OS: Apple API: Metal (Apple) Apple has an entire ecosystem to consider, Watches, Phones, Tablets, Laptops, desktops, Apple TV etc.......and since they make all their Operating systems......and make all their own CPUs/GPUs.....it was in their best interest to make their own universal optimized API that works well across their ecosystem. and we've seen how well that worked out.......apple has been sticking AI Neural Engines in their devices since A11 Bionic. Apple in literally their first year of launching MetalFX Upscaling.......it uses the Neural Engine and Machine Learning components of their Silicon......... like Nvidia tensor cores work with DLSS.........to upscale games and boost performance, first year, already better than FSR and competing with DLSS. It's why apple started sticking the M1 in the Ipad Air.....they have long term plans. I won't be surprised if AAA games start coming to the Ipad Air/Ipad Pro's in the next year or two. That would make Android tablets look like cheap toys running COD mobile and Genshin Impact while the IPads run Death Stranding, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry 5 etc. I wonder what apple haters will say then. lol
@@kninezbanks well that's the problem it's 1 eco system so it's limited most people who buy a mac buy it for work not gaming and you can't upgrade any part on a mac and because mac has a complete diff build and os any bugs or error will be unique to mac users and will have to make a team just for that just won't be worth making a completely different port that wont be fully upgradeable due to the limit in parts
Most developers won't adopt it because they are worried that Apple will just randomly drop support. As a result at one of their Apple conferences they will announce a whole new system to replace this and that effective immediately this one is discontinued and burn all the developers currently trying to use it. That has been their history so far and I see no reason to expect that to change.
@@yvan2563 The point is that Apple has a long history of just dropping things. At their conferences they have announced major news APIs and twice Adobe announced Photoshop for that API at next years conference when Apple announced it was no longer supported. They don't even tell some of their largest application partners about this stuff before they just abandon it. It makes it much harder to get developers for the platform.
My work gave me a Mac and the lack of windows snapping was probably one of my first complaints. Rectangle is a godsend, and it is free. I'd recommend it if you also have to use a Mac but miss basic window management.
biggest issue I still have with it is the way it handles minimised windows and tabbing through stuff.. The rest is _fine_ but while windows feels designed for people using multiple programs, mac feels like something made for people to use only one program at a time.
Speaking as a Linux gamer, Apple are high if they think developers are just going to come over without any incentive. The Steam Deck is receiving explicit developer support because of the massive pre-existing business framework and audience surrounding it. Proton is great. Devs barely even have to target it to get a game running perfectly these days. But if Proton were all Valve had to offer nobody would even be thinking about supporting Linux.
@@Adam-vx6to I know they are overpriced. Especially products on the low end side of the scale. As for Linux, I think Valve has done a good bit of work over the years to bring gaming to other platforms. Remembering SteamOS, and the SteamOS SFF machines they sold as an example. I mean, I'm sure for Valve, they would love to sell more software for Linux, Mac, or whatever ecosystems they can. I just noticed the other day, one of the game I've been patiently waiting for is the Layers of Fear coming out on 6/15/2023, is also coming to Mac's running Apple's own silicon. Now I do think the new Mac systems-on-a-chip are very impressive. That M2 or whatever it was called looks amazing. CPU, GPU, System memory, AI accelerators, all integrated on one big @$$ chip, it is probably the way and wave of the future.
@@jcdenton2819 It actually makes it easier. Much like consoles, when you have a much more limited amount of potential hardware you have to support it makes programming for the hardware easier. You can target the lowest end of M1 macs and if it runs well on that, you can be assured it will run well on everything up the stack.
@@jtjones4727 Sorry, anyone who believes the old myth that Macs are overpriced in the current gen cleraly have a massive bias against Apple. Your opinion no longer hold weight. Goodbye.
I wonder if they intentionally aligned this with the announcement of their AR headset. Being able to run PC VR games would significantly increase the value proposition.
@@m4a44 The thing is, gaming on vision pro does not necessarily mean VR games. Standard games that usually run on a monitor could just be in a giant window in front of you.
If Apple funded developers to port games and develop new titles, they'd sell more Macs, and those of us who prefer Macs would be very happy. They need to stop obsessing with the iPhone sales and increase Mac sales to ramp up the user base. Linus is speaking like a true PC cultist in this video, not knowing what he's talking about!
@@bardockshinyT used the M1 Ultra for their testing which has known compatibility bugs with the Gaming Toolkit. The Ultra chips are basically two SoCs merged together and it seems the Gaming Toolkit doesn’t play nice with that specific chip - the Max, Pro, and Base M chips all have decent performance for a lot of games. Literally if they had used any other Apple Silicon chip they would have seen much better performance.
I don't know if i missed it, but Proton was actually initially available on MacOS. But Valve got sick of Apple's approach to gaming and dropped it a few months after Protons announcement. They've also given up with VR support, with that only working on x86 and not ARM. However, Valve did update Steam to be 64 bit, and apparently it's the only client which features it (windows and linux clients are supposedly still 32 bit), because other wise they'd be locked out of being used on Catalina onwards (iirc)
In that you're correct, and frankly. Not worth putting up with Apple's attitude Even when someone does what they want, they still pull the rug afterwards
@@l0zerth Pretty sure they just meant the Steam client, not the OS. Funfact: Linux was the first OS to support x86_64. Way before you could even buy x86_64 hardware.
It's super annoying that Apple isn't doing this with a true open source community, but now that the community sees it's possible there's nothing stopping a true open source solution from happening eventually.
its existed for nearly 2 decades mate, and there have been success in that too. Apple is just slow (as always) outside the sphere of making fashion devices. Wine (which has many variations at this point, and dates back to 1993), crossover and many others.
Apple has fundamentally been against being open about anything since it's founding. As Linus said they have a long history of using open source elements to develop their highly proprietary code, and contributing very little back, even actively fighting back at times when the open source community makes breakthroughs in opening their OS's. Apple was built as a walled garden, and are clearly doing everything they can to stay that way as much as they can.
As someone who grew up gaming and ended up switching to mac for work, I’d love to see developers adopt this tool and optimize for other platforms! If Apple incentivizes game devs to make their games cross platform, I feel this could be a big hit
I remember Mac gaming via Steam being sort of okay back in the day. It wasn't very big but hey you could boot up a small indie game or two without needing to boot up your dedicated gaming PC. But then the 32 bit to 64 apocalypse happened where Apple just gave up on keeping the Rosetta translation around. Apple really needs to get serious and put in the effort to upkeep on APIs and Steam support if it really wants to get past this stigma of gaming on Macs.
Rosetta is for translating PowerPC apps. It get dropped on OS X Lion. The 32 bit support is just some old libraries. They are not the same thing. As soon as Apple thinks intel CPU is completely done for. They will remove Rosetta 2 as well. Making macOS only run ARM64 apps. I still have machine running on OS X Snow Leopard so I can use those old apps.
@@NonsensicalSpudz I think they meant 'new platforms' as in making new ports of games (old or new), and bringing gaming to platforms that were not usually natively supported in the past.
Metal makes developing cross platform applications that use the GPU a nightmare. Vulkan was supposed to unify the ecosystem, but Apple again tries to lock users into their ecosystem by not supporting it and shipping their slightly similar garbage instead. It is unfortunately very anti-consumer behavior and makes Apple a garbage choice for developing games for.
Unfortunately here are multiple wrong statements: - The GPU display in the Metal Performance HUD is not the usage in percents but the time taken by the GPU in milliseconds to render the image - Hollow Knight was already working without GPTK
if Apple only supported Vulkan... That would basically enable them to run Proton with Rosetta and make it easier for native ports too. But after all Apple is still Apple.
VK support would not allow you to just run proton. Or run run native PC VK engines. Apples GPUs are TBDR pipeline GPUs and while you can write a VK engine for this type of GPU PC VK engines (and proton) are not written for defined rendering GPUs and if they run they would run very very badly. This is the tradeoff you have with any low level api, you get better perf but you also sacrifice portability.
I'm going to be VERY blunt here... I just want Apple to die at this point. The M1 was the only good thing they've put out since, literally, the first iPhone. Otherwise, they've been nothing but an awful influence in every industry they inhabit. (And Microsoft is starting to get just as bad too, so I'm NOT defending them either.) And it sucks because I get the appeal of their core driving force. Customized software for their own customized hardware. It's a noble goal to be sure, but Apple is not the company (or at least, not these days) that can actually follow through with their promises of quality. All I see from them for the most part is just greed and anti-consumer bullshit. Oh, and """courage""".
What's even funnier on this is that the people reverse engineering M1 for the Linux port found out that the GPU is designed in a way to also support Vulkan, but the software does not.
@@hishnash Precisely. The problem for supporting VK is fundamental to the architecture. My bet here is that Apple was committed to their current GPU architecture at the fundamentals level too far before VK came into the picture, so they went off and did their own thing. This wouldn't be the first time Apple "reinvented the wheel" because their product development lifecycle didn't align with industry movements, even when those industry moves could be seen coming years ahead. People underestimate how long Apple hardware products are in the pipeline before they see the light of day, and it has a huge effect on these sorts of things.
@@Xjuijau She dyed her hair & she changed her name. She’s also taking HRT, and there’s probably other things she’s doing too to help herself be who she is.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think the idea of the Game Porting Tool is meant to be about converting Windows or Linux users to MacOS; I think it's more about giving MacOS users more opportunities to play games on the Macs that they already own. Is more systems that enabled devs to get their games to more gamers with the same or less effort supposed to be a bad thing?
macs are cheaper than windows pcs, better built and have better hardware. you can get a m1 air for 799 which has DAC Premium build i7 speeds and great software and screen, for 800 youll get some shitty chromebook or i5 11th gen laptop that lags, is plasticky creaky cheap and has a terrible trackpad.
Okay let me be a little bit more fair to the mac, I think if I want a standard office computer I'd go windows, If I wanted a high end gaming computer I'd go windows again. If I wanted a computer to do high end graphic design type stuff I'd then go for a mac. I think they're great at what they do but windows PCs just seem more versatile.
@@harryl6596 does it matter? She is the same person she has always been, except now she's able to live publicly as she is and not need to hide it. 🏳️⚧
Рік тому+332
I think apple is slowly realizing that they have to bring new users to their platform. From my perspective, it seems like everybody who wants to be locked into the Apple eco system, already is. If they can get Windows programms to run decently too, they will have a massive chunck of new potential users. I am not a fan that people are switching to a company like Apple, but it is definitely great that they are improving on their eco system. And it is also cool to see some games work halfway okish for now that aren't supported on the platform.
Well new apple users will definitely not come from current Linux users unless there is a very radical change in the company. Linux at least partially brings you into the mindset "I can do anything here" and that will never be welcome at apple so Linux usere won't move. except if asahi Linux becomes mainstream.
@@verumignis4778 That's pure cope. Linux is a better platform, but the user-friendliness is NOWHERE near Windows. Imagine having to put "code" into "consoles" to simply install basic programs. I'm sorry but people will rather switch to Win11 (its getting slightly better at a snail's pace) at the end of Win10 than switch to Linux.
@@vik1ng313 All user friendly distros have graphical package managers so theres no need to ever open a terminal for the average user. If you want to do something more advanced like VMs with GPU passthrough (generally something only power users would want to do) then the terminal is really useful and thats why its there. If you insist on everything being graphical then openSUSE has YaST which pretty much replaces the terminal. Im sure a lot of people will downgrade to win11 when win10 goes EOL but some of them will upgrade to linux and with more users comes more support.
From what I've seen from other people running the game I think it's safe to say that the Cyberpunk performance would've been a lot better if the shaders were fully compiled as well. I've seen it running at 30fps at 1440p Ultra settings on the M2 Max (which is probably still nowhere near nativ performance, in Metal-optimized cross platform benchmarks the M2 Max benchmarks like a laptop 4080).
Emily is Anthony Just things have changed and she is now more comfortable as who she is now I do hope that it doesnt discourage you from watching LTT and any videos hosted by her
@@YamiSpyro2011 I literally can’t watch without cringing, 50000 years of human evolution being laughed at will do that to normal people. It’s hard to watch a guy you know speaking like a girl
He went to the current thing shop and got some sterilization drugs for his AGP fetish. Hot market right now. His experimental sacrifice will be remembered.
The part that gives me the most hope was the very end where you showed SotTR at average 32fps on GPT but native 110fps. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE. So any games that are running in GPT 30-60fps sound like they would be GREAT if ported natively.
it really depends on game. I think some of those extremes are due to fact that the layer has a heavy cpu tax, and many games are cpu bound and gpu bound not just gpu bound. if you run a game that isn't heavy on cpu, porting kit gpu performance is probably only about 20% off of fps from native. but if game needs a lot of cpu, that's a problem cause cpu is doing heavy lifting going through literally 3 layers of translation (x86 to arm, windows to wine, D3D to Metal)
Hopefully this brings more games to Mac. I primarily work on a Mac and, while I do have a PC (which hardly ever gets turned on because work takes all my time but is theoretically for gaming) it means people like me who use a Mac for our day to day work don't need to spend extra money on another computer, if we want to game. More options for consumers is a win.
Interesting to me is now the cost risk analysis for developers has shrunk. I'm trying not to get high on the copium but I'd think it's no longer safe to assume developing for Mac is a write-off.
@@patrickmohr6985 It will still require all of the dev work to port. The tool is not at all fit to be used inplace of a port. The real issues are 1) userbase. How many people owning a mac are people that will want to game 2) their review system. Supporting a product on mac is worse than supporting one on any other platform if the issues that plague the phone store also affect the pc. If there is not a large enough userbase to warrant it, and the support from the platform owner is 3rd tier, why bother?
Yeah in the past you could run Boot camp and have decent support for games on there on a Mac computer, the loss of that on Apple Silicon has been detrimental, so hopefully they can have better support moving forward.
@@patrickmohr6985 People have always made money developing on Mac, for Mac but I'd suggest the overwhelming majority of developers who *need* a Mac are developing for iPhone. I don't technically need a Mac for work - I *could* use a PC, I just have everything set up the way I like on Mac, been using it for about 5 years and I'd prefer to leave it that way.
Alternatively, they could bring back Bootcamp for Apple Silicon. I use Bootcamp on a 2017 iMac right now and it's fine, irritating to reboot for half my games but SSDs make it much easier than back in the early 2010's. I know they need Windows on ARM first, but ARM is a significant and growing segment of the market so It's coming.
@@kodybuffettwilson The fact that you feel this need to run through every comment on this video and say these things makes me think you need to take a loooong look in your closet's mirror.
I remember learning about the history of Mac gaming a while ago - the classics like Myst and Bungie's Marathon. Not nearly the number of games as on PC, but some very innovative ones. I'm excited to see where this attempt at reviving Mac gaming goes!
There is something wrong with your testing guys! I’m getting 3x the performance on a mbp. You shouldn't have uploaded this video, it's a lack of professionalism.
The problem with the Mac was never porting, Unity especially makes it easy and Unreal is not far behind. The problem was user base. We had our games ported to the Mac and the sales were just low compared to PC and Consoles. And its not even the sales thats the issue, its the support cost for the platform. Its always an additional platform to build (which takes time even if you have a CI solution implemented), test, and resolve unique bugs for. And the bugs are often unique and hard to fix as most devs are working on Windows. If you’re not supported by Apple on the platform then there is almost no return on the investment and the “official” port of wine will not change that. Making native apps when you are using Unity or Unreal is already doable and requires the similar amount of work without the additional overhead by wine. And won’t change the amount of support you need to do for the platform.
This isn't accurate. Apple used to have the lead in gaming user base, in the 90s, but they squandered it by making it difficult to develop for and not putting any effort into attracting gamers.
Oh yes .... the "who came first, chicken or the egg?" dilemma is all over your comment. Yeah, who came first, the user base or the games that support it ?
@@marcogeracao1999 You need to have the user base. It can emerge organically like with Windows but often you need to build it. One way to build it is to throw a lot of money (what Epic’s trying to do with their store) on exclusives, ports and other deals, so the gamers come and the devs see there is money to be made. Other way is to migrate them - what Apple tried to do with Apple Arcade basically - from other places. Valve succeded with it with the Steam Deck. They took the users from PCs to their own platform and behold, the native Linux builds for it are a non issue for devs big and small.
she (emily) came out as trans publicly a month or so ago, but was on a break from showing up on LTT for the sake of her mental health & the team. you may have known her as anthony before!
Yeah I'm thinking that this Emily guy might be on the spectrum and transitioned to fit into a community. It almost happened to me and I suspect the same of him.
@@Caddy666 that's not true. Vulkan is easily the most performant graphics API, it's a fully open standard and it's crossplatform. Supporting Vulkan would get rid of two separate translation layers on MacOS. Or even more if the game itself supports Vulkan. That would mean a huge performance and compatibility gain.
@@cnr_0778 Its not supported on Xbox and PlayStation, only PC. And these are the more important platforms for most genres and regions. D3D is both Xbox and Windows-PC, making it easier to port. There is a reason, why almost no one (outside of mosty id Software, which have a history using OpenGL instead of D3D on PC) uses Vulkan on PC for commercial gaming products.
This seems a lot like what Linux is doing with proton and wine(he’ll it seems to use a lot of the same technologies under the hood). But it seems like they want to make it seem like they did all the work and made something brilliant.
From what I've heard, Apple heavily relies on open-source tools and technologies for their toolkit. Essentially throwing ~proton~ Wine into the toolkit. Unfortunately though, Apple are known for barely contributing development back to the open-source tools and packages their software forks from/uses.
Because Bootcamp (running Windows natively) is dead on Apple Silicon, this is a good change! I think bootcamp was always the "excuse" to the terrible native support for games on Macs, so they really had to do something when it's no longer there! Personally I have moved away from using my mac for gaming, as I have a windows SFFPC for that now. Just using Mac for work, which it is excellent at... but maybe if this progress enough, I would use it for some gaming on the go.
valve has been officially allowing peeps to install windows natively on the steam deck for some time now while still constantly improving gaming on linux. So it sucks that apple isnt doing the same thing for mac os.
@@xt6997 It's not that Apple doesn't allow users to install Windows on Mac, it's that Microsoft doesn't make an OS that can run natively on the Apple Silicon. That's Microsoft's problem. If you WANT Windows on an Apple Silicon Mac, Parallels does the whole thing for you. I'm a software engineer and don't have any performance gripes with it.
@@TheOfficialOriginalChad idk if yk this but the biggest reason why windows on arm isnt a thing on arm macs natively was because of a license deal with qualcom. There is no other reason stopping microsoft and apple from realising another bootcamp equiv for arm.
This is a great tool. Its obvious Apple doesn't have much interest in gaming on their platforms but recognizes that some users might and might not have room or budget for a second unit to game with. Now developers can give it a shot, even if its a lazy version of porting. Also, apple silicon has a lot of performance that isn’t being used to its full capabilities by most users, so it’ll be good to see what they can really do when a developer actually gives it a shot.
Apple cares about their ecosystem and nothing else, and what's coming next in the ecosystem besides generational chip refreshes? The headset needs some beefy hardware running it for the Apple level of user experience that's expected, and for everything that isn't needed needs layer upon layer of transcription to run at this same expected level of fidelity. Apple is putting themselves ahead of the curve so that launches are mostly nonproblematic day 1. As a side note, this is also huge for ARM and may be one of the last major pushes the industry needs to adopt ARM at the consumer desktop, and quite possibly even workstation, level; hopefully along with interest from ARM themselves in producing a more efficient microarchitecture catered towards the desktop ecosystem, instead of chip manufacturers having to take lower-end microarches and scale them to desktop-like performance. Apple is proving viability of desktop on ARM with every generation, M1 was general viability and general transcription layer use, M2 doubles down and is proving performance viability though they still need to work on transcription and utilizing the entire SOC's offerings, M3 will have to be pretty heavy into hardware viability considering they're wanting to get into XR hardware and complete viability of the transcription layers for any non-native application running as if they were native applications; keep in mind just the display and rendering in VR/AR is a step above, XR is also piping in sensor data for inversed-AR use, not to mention all of the tracking and various other sensor data that has to go through the same chips, etc., M3 will have to be a hardware and software powerhouse, and I'm hoping Apple is smart enough to introduce a coprocessor GPU into the ecosystem, as this will expand the ARM ecosystem and further prove viability of a full hardware desktop with an ARM CPU. Keep in mind that Microsoft wanted to do this exact thing a decade ago when the original Surface launched with Windows RT, yet it failed because they didn't have the hardware backing it, even their most recent attempts at desktop on ARM haven't had the hardware to back it because Apple is the _only_ company in the industry utilizing proper desktop-grade chips, and because of this Apple is pioneering the desktop ARM movement and they have to be the ones to prove viability for any other chip manufacturer to invest into the idea of it, which is why M3-M4 might be the tipping point where we finally see the industry migration to ARM desktops, especially with hardware, software, and performance having been proven to be viable, especially with the software being simple enough to just transcribe x86 with ease, which gives programmers a massive grace period to migrate from one architecture to the other, and that programming changeover grace period is the silver lining that would make an industry migration entirely feasible; not to mention all of this could hypothetically mean we can now run x86 apps on handsets, and the changeover would eventually mean mobile and desktop apps are within the same lineage and only differentiate at scale, plus it'd be interesting to see how mobile apps do scale to desktop applications just for the sake of experimentation especially with games.
Apple has laid the groundworks to offer developers the ability to build games that run smoothy on Mac, but the developers haven't had the motivation to do so yet. I feel they've released this porting kit so they provide developers with an easy method of releasing some Mac games, which does 2 things: 1. It attracts more gamers to Mac, making it a bigger and more interesting market for game devs, and 2. creates a little frustration with devs when they notice their games don't run as smooth as they should do, which could lead to them releasing a native version.
This reminds me of back in the day when I would load the Power PC windows emulator software on my ‘crazy fast’ 6100/66mhz power mac! It would just barely run windows and any games run on the system overlay hardly had any frame rate at all! This was back in ‘95. It’s crazy to think that in almost 20 years Apple still hasn’t wanted to get Into the gaming side of the market.
It goes back to the mindset and corporate culture started by Steve Jobs, believing that desktops are meant for productivity, period. Until they get out of their headquarters group-think, Apple will never actually support gaming on Mac OS, certainly not at the level of Microsoft, or even the Linux community.
LTT retweeted and Emily herself came out as transgender, it's on her new channel, "Emily Young" with her as pfp. It's probably easy to find since video went viral. Hope that helps!
re: supporting developers: As much as I love the fact they are releasing more compilation and native apple silicon tools, the landscape for professional developers remains tedious. Especially for publishing, where compilation MUST be done on an apple product, Apple is downright hostile to attempts to host machines in any sort of server/shared environment. I would love to see any sort of support come back like that apple server you showcased a few months ago
It's insane because the only way to have anything close that would barely do the job would be the new Mac Pro with expansions to make it a centralized "server"... which is less than ideal. Indie devs may port their game is it's small enough and runs well with minimal tweaking through the Toolkit using like a Mac Mini, but anyone with a more complex workflow and an actual team has to figure out how to add a Mac to their development pipeline, and if you don't want to purchase a Mac Pro (Or MULTIPLE, for a large enough studio), you're gonna be fiddling with a Mac Studio and thunderbolt docks and adapters. It's still better than before, just still somewhat inconvenient. Maybe once it's out new projects can experiment including Mac development since the beginning, making it less costly and troublesome, providing data to help further improve these tools. I really want this to take off, because having alternatives to Windows is great, Proton already makes Linux viable for gaming, and Mac is now catching up. I hope in a couple years I don't have to have both a macbook and a windows laptop for gaming, and I can just run a Macbook Pro for portable everything with great battery life.
I was so stressed out in anticipation of the sponsor segue I couldn't focus on the content. 13:06 freakin killed me You conditioned us Linus, please don't do this again. I swear you knew what you were doing to us at 14:13
If Apple wants to convince me they care about gaming on their platform, maybe they should do something to allow playing older 32-bit macOS titles. There is a large library of games that are unplayable on modern macOS.
Some 32 bit Windows programs don't even run on modern versions of Windows anymore, and Microsoft is the company that has built itself on backwards compatibility, while Apple has literally said what do you mean you don't have a current gen iphone to set up your other Apple device, so don't hold your breath...
I think the downside with APGT is its being made by a non gaming company and is pretty much closed source, whereas proton not only is supported by valve the biggest (and some people would argue the only) PC game launcher, but it is also open sourced so theoretically anyone can look at the code see stuff that wouldnt work with say fall guys (just a random example) but know that changing a few lines of code can make it work submit it and then everyone can use the fall guys specific proton version
These new Apple Silicon Macs have decently capable hardware in them. The PC gamer tinkerer in me has me curious about how games will run on these, so the more games getting easily ported to Apple, the better.
The "Proton is killing linux native games" just isn't true, take a look at the actual numbers and you'll immediately realize there is more and more new games natively running on linux every year and it keeps going up
I was a bit annoyed watching this video tbh, knowing what actual performance people are getting vs what happened in the video. Seems like not much research was done beforehand
As a game developer who is currently waiting for another one of my comrades to figure out how to get an ipad specially provisioned so that our cloud build can be opened on the platform so I can test a small change to a single variable, knowing that I will ultimately have to go dig up a macbook and install a ton of proprietary software just to get an accurate profiling setup; I am a bit wary of exactly how easy and pain free and convenient their game porting service will truly be.
The main bread and butter of the porting toolkit is not this wine based tool. But chatter the HLSL to Metal IR to Metal machine code compiler that you can run on windows or Mac to compile your shaders to metal compatible shaders. The aim being that you have a single source of truth for your shaders across platforms and that your not using source code transforming tools that tend to be full of bugs but shatter using an LLVM IR transformer that means when you use the Metal debugger you will see the HLSL code from the source maps.
Feels a bit phoned in all things considered. If Apple really wanted developers to port their games to Mac the best thing they could do would be to support Vulkan rather than requiring Metal for shaders. This almost feels like a weird middle ground to prevent a compatibility layer good enough that it'd just be built into Steam from existing as it does on Linux
They do that because Metal is optimized to their OS. They’d rather force the hands of developers than to lose 15 minutes of battery life or 5% performance by supporting vulkan.
@@JaceKeller You are giving them far too much credit on this. Vulkan is open, they can build on it in such a way to have all the advantages of metal. In reality they are doing a MS in reverse. They don't want to open the door to native Vulkan programming on their platform, so that in forcing Metal, things made in Metal stay only on their platform.
Linus: Oh hey, Elden Ring is running at 30 FPS! Me: Bruh, if I wanted to play Elden Ring at 30 FPS I would just play it on my Steam Deck and save the money lol
Same!! I just hope she takes it at her own pace and doesnt feel pressured now that she's out. Like her own comfort is most important imo. That said, happy to see her!! I recall her being in more videoa way back and i liked seeing her around :p
Would be really interesting to check how perforfmance compares on Asahi Linux (project for running Linux on Apple silicon). Actually an Asahi Linux video in general seems cool.
At the insanely good pacing they have demonstrated (bless you Rust support in Linux modules and Mesa), maybe in a year or two? But no chance you'll get a comparison in time to satisfy your doubts. (Don't worry tho: Linux already runs 2-6x faster than macOS in general, so you can still expect insane performance boosts when they eventually get there)
@Matt M I'm basing this on evidence shown by Marcan and other Asahi devs. I'd gladly attach them here (they're on Treehouse Social), but UA-cam deletes my comments every time I attempt that or even using the wrong words...
@Matt M 6x is not supposed to be the average, but the best case scenario. The specific test where that came up from was something as dumb as making a tarfile, but it still ended up almost 7 times faster than macOS ‒ I guess it's a synthetic benchmark and not a very telling one, but the numbers are still there nonetheless, and still wild.
@Matt M The 2-6× claims are misleading for sure, but they do come from somewhere. Specifically, many CLI tools do consistently run that much faster. Also, the disk access layer is supposedly way more optimized when it comes to the Linux kernel compared to XNU which has some OO, message-driven contraption.
The GPU value in the hud is the HUD is frame time in milliseconds, not % utilization.
A more meaningful evaluation of the performance left on the table is the differences in performance from game to game. Stay tuned for the whole video becuase there are a few big surprises - LS
might want to pin this comment.
@@dftfire LTT screwed it up. Games on M1 MAX are 3x as fast.
Great video. Though now I’m wondering for cyberpunk, how is it that you’re getting only ~10 fps at 720p on an M1 Ultra when on Andrew Tsai’s channel he’s getting ~30 fps on an M1 max at 1440p on med preset? ua-cam.com/video/HlYn2fVfl1M/v-deo.html
Linus if you need help putting this video let me know, I am pretty good at getting good gaming performance on Macs. You should have way higher framerates and compatibility on your games.
@@szaszm_ MS has had an emulator for quite a while, but as you said it performs awfully.
Apple's emulator doesn't rely on any Apple-specific CPU features though - the Linux build (which is intended for VMs on an M1) can even run on other CPUs
And none of this would've been possible withouth Valve and the Linux community.
They merely took a shortcut. They are a multi-trillion dollar company, if they wanted to spend the time & money to develop a port 100% for themselves they would have & easily could have.
...but Apple doesn't agree
@@Camper_Samu important being "if they wanted to spend the time & money"
we all know this is something Apple just threw together to make the people asking for games on Mac quiet for a bit.
They could really careless how well it works, it's more for optics I think. Like a "see we care about gaming" while not actually doing anything.
Truth is, Apple is obv. focused on turning Apple computing into a AR/VR direction. You can clearly see this because it's not just a VR headset, they specifically barely mentioned VR & talked a lot about AR & the ability for the headset to handle 2d screens straight out of the box. They clearly see the headset replacing the Mac (at least the base models) in the future.
@@HeyItsHades and I agree on that, maybe I should add a * to my comment with "*and doesn't care"
Not 100% true as Valve just expanded on work already been done but the main thing is valve have the money to get real action done in a much faster time frame rather than just mostly people coding in spare time, so credit to valve for risking its own money.
I think if Apple truly cared about gaming on macOS, they'd add a Vulkan backend to their graphics driver. Getting a developer to write a Metal renderer, which only Mac users would benefit from, is probably a way harder sell than a Vulkan renderer, which would work on Windows, Linux and macOS.
I honestly think this should be brought up more. If they simply supported Vulkan instead of forcing everyone to use Metal, it would just make the platform far more open to porting and give more performance when running non-native Vulkan games. That's not even mentioning that DXVK ALREADY EXISTS so D3DMetal is basically just starting over from scratch.
It's actually really simple, Apple has always intended to be a walled garden, and still seems to stay they way for the foreseeable future.
They say flat out in their documentation and even in the press event that this method is intended for devs to test certain things before doing a full port, not for actual user gaming.
The fact as Linus mentioned about still having a hack compatibility layer over 30 years in for something as basic as non-Apple printer drivers tells you all you need to know about their corporate culture.
If they truly cared about gamers they would not have banned Nvidia drivers and removed thunderbolt eGPU support in the first place. They don't care about gamers, they care about their money. They don't want gamers, they want slaves.
@@l0zerth at least printers work on Apple Silicon… can’t say the same for Windows running on ARM. Most printers don’t work on the Window ARM version and printer companies haven’t added any support in the roughly 8 years that Microsoft has had an ARM version of Windows.
@@l0zerth Not always. They used to support OpenGL and even X11 back in the day. Now they have the upper hand, they don't want anything in common with other platforms.
There seems to be an issue with the game porting tool kit and the ultra chips due to it being 2 M1 Max chips together, others have got higher performance from lower chips
Do you know if this is a problem with the just M1 Ultra? I’ve heard that the M1 Ultra is actually 2 M1 Max chips stuck together but in hardware parallel which might explain this issue , whereas the new M2 Ultra is supposedly done in the proper way so that it actually doubles performance
nobody cares about your chip musings, this now about trans inclusivity.
@@spencerrr9878 yes the m1 ultra has a lower cache bandwidth so it has some issues with unoptimized apps, the m2 ultra is upgraded and has a higher scaling for there core counts
@@TrestonDodd All three of you seem to have overlooked the fact that these technologies and Operating Systems have ONLY JUST BEEN ANNOUNCED, and are STILL IN DEVELOPER PREVIEW stage - They ARE NOT IN A CONDITION TO BE USED BY THE PUBLIC, because a lot of work still has to go into them…The reason why DEVELOPER PREVIEWS are released, is so that APP developers can get a head start updating, fine-tuning and otherwise tweaking their already existing apps, so that when the new versions of the OS release, everything is ready to go….Developer Previews - ESPECIALLY THE FIRST ONE - Are not meant to be an indication of the final product in any way at all…In fact, they’re the opposite: They’re an indication of how something will run in the WORST POSSIBLE conditions…A real world description is: Disconnect the ECU from your car’s engine, run it like that for a bit, and then compare it to a late model BMW M3…The difference is so severe that it shouldn’t even be a thing…Linus is just showing WHAT IS COMING and what it’s capable of…Not what is here and now.
@@Dozeball thank you for the insightful comment grounded in reality. We just have to wait.
It's never a bad idea to get games on different platforms.
Unless it's apple lol, fuck apple
But at what cost
100% agree. PC gaming will always be there, but Mac ports being common will help get games to more people. More competition too.
Don't get the cyperpunk performance in the beginning, I've seen it running on an M2 max macbook pro at 4K ultra at 30fps.
@@ncard00 They are testing on an M1. Plz stay awake while watching a video. Still 30 FPS is to cry. My Linux gaming rig pulls 100 FPS on Cyberpunk 2077 easily.
The number of translation layers for this is pretty hilarious.
When playing something DX11 you have DXVK, MoltenVK, Wine and Rosetta between the game and the hardware.
if it works it works
@@jayplay8140 True, but it would likely work significantly better if there were fewer translation layers between the bare metal and the base code.
That's why the performance drops twice.
And Emily
This isn't using DXVK or MoltenVK. It goes through Apples MetalD3D translation layer instead.
As a gamedev who used to be an avid Mac user... yeah Apple sometimes says one thing then does another in regards to gaming. Keep in mind it's a big company. Like there seem to be pockets of folks in the company that have tried to make the platform more viable for gaming as far back as the 90's with stuff like Game Sprockets. Then there are folks that seem almost embarrassed that Apple devices can be used for something as juvenile as games. Jobs infamously had commented on how games made the Mac look unprofessional.
I think many of the people who had those views have since left or are not longer in positions that have insouciance over the Mac, apple have been hiring in the space rather aggressively over the last few years.
that said do not expect them to ship a plastic cased Mac book with RGB
Jobs never saw how big the gaming industry would be
Game Sprockets! Wow. That is going WAY back...
On the other hand Jobs proudly presented Halo on the MacWorld on a Dual PowerMac G4. Unfortunately Microsoft saw it and bought Bungie to finally have an exclusive release title for their upcoming Xbox.
@@Simply_Jerry woz is the true genius
Should have used an M1 Max or M2 Max to test. For some reason games have worse performance on the Ultra chips
M2 ultra has fixed the scaling issues.
That's Linus not doing his homework, which is research. Sad and misinformation and that's a fact.
@@earnistse4899 oh really? I guess it was just the m1 ultra then
@@sinigangpapi3379 Okay but he barely does any research anyway... He's the face of LMG, he employs people (or used to) to manage all that.
He doesn't really use Apple for anything, since he likes being able to try new hardware in his computer without buying an entire new computer... Just as I like paying for a license on Google Play and giving them a cut of my earnings instead of paying $100 per app, and giving them a big cut of my earnings.
@@MajorPickleSwag yep, I get x3-x4 FPS especially in cyberpunk ob my M1 Max 32gb
Hi! It's Isaac, I'm working hard on smoothing out the issues with Whisky but as always Wine sucks to work with as a library. Hoping to have everything working smoothly in a few weeks ❤
Hi isaac you're famous now. Insane all the work you do
Thanks for all the hard work you do!
boost
@mattm7125 lol what
@Matt M Isaac clearly talked about winelib, not wine the executable... And winelib is not easy to develop against on Linux either.
What Linus had with not hitting things in Elden Ring is called “aim punching”. It’s to do with hit boxes glancing off each other, it’s a known bug and can cause people to lose multiplayer matches.
Funny when you’re on the winning side, not really the other way round.😊
AAA broken mess as always :)
I wish I could actually like that game, but in the state it's left feels like a waste of time...
I swear an audiobook of the lore feels like a better use of my time.
@@Camper_Samu that’s a shame because the game is is fantastic. “A broken mess” is objectively false. Same you don’t enjoy it because it’s so fun!
Thanks for explaining that, I always wondered why newer arena fps's sucked.
@@Cull_Obsidian Both on Windows and Linux I get terrible input lag and frames for a 3080 + Ryzen 5800X combo, with stutters and minor graphic issues (eg. shadows flickering, even with RT on) that make me nauseated after every session; I tried some mods to fix the issues, it somewhat helped but it wasn't enough, so after playing some seamless coop I dropped the game because it was literally a pain to play, specially considering all the bugs and just frustrating inconsistencies put there for literally no reason outside of the developers not knowing how to make a game engine (both in single and multiplayer).
I am not the only one having issues, some of my friends in my friend group suffer from bugs and issues like mine and InfernoPlus' coverage (+ some personal research) of the engine From Software uses for their souls games gives me some clues to why this game has so many issues and as a developer myself I find Elden RING to be complete ass on a technical level (and I repeat, on a TECHNICAL level).
I enjoy more looking at UA-cam videos on the game and enjoying it that way, Ymfah and Albino make great content on it from time to time for example, but for a AAA release that got entitled as GOTY this is just outrageous.
If this sounds harsh or looks way too verbose, it's because I've had this argument several times on the internet and I found that disclosing everything immediately is the best way to dodge a toxic discussion, I am not saying that all Elden Ring is trash, but on a technical level it's close to being straight up trash (which doesn't define the game in its integrity).
*Also I might try to play it again once Convergence gets a release, that mod looks sick but I hope to find the game in a better state.
there _is_ a Linux distribution specifically for Apple Silicon called Asahi Linux and they recently put together a GPU driver as well, would love to see you guys compare gaming performance using that
You would not get very far as DRM is not licensed on ARM Linux platforms
asahi doesn’t use metal, which is what these compatibility layers are for, so this doesn’t really affect gaming on asahi.
Actually... Asahi Linux is not a Linux distribution.
It is a project porting the Linux kernel to M1.
Asahi is still under heavy development though. Gotta keep that in mind.
Well tbh it's a great project but it still has a long way to go if I'm correct because they still need some stuff to figure out
It's quite weird that Apple dropped their support for gaming eventually as this was something that was important for the success early Apple Computers (like Prince of Persia).
because it wasnt in the VISION!!!
lmao dumbasses....oh well ty M$ i guess for making gaming what it is today!
Steve Jobs was so pissed when MS bought bungie.
Halo was supposed to be a Mac game.
Commodore made much better computers for gaming.
@@MaxLittleBuddy Imagine the weird alternate reality where the original Xbox completely flopped, because Halo was an Apple exclusive, and instead we got an entire family of Apple Pippin console generations.
@@MrGamelover23 some say the game would be ported to windows later because it used OpenGL. But this is what we get and the Gearbox port is very shitty despite Xbox use DirectX
there is a community port for FF14 for mac, which actually runs way better then the native Square enix port of the game, I`d love if you could look into that approach, since it works perfectly well and works even better than what the developer does
@@13Maur you only need to own it on PC to play Xivformac, native requires a mac license
I’m not a final fantasy fan, has FF14 been reverse engineered? I don’t see how else a community could make a better Mac version otherwise
@@raracool04the official “port” of FFXIV is based on an old version of Wine without really any optimization.
XIV on Mac (the 3rd party launcher) is constantly kept up to date, and iirc is based on Crossover, resulting in about 2-2.5x performance.
Went from 20-30fps to solid 60-100fps with Reshade enabled. It’s great for gaming on the go.
As a game developer, I remember when Apple counter programmed Game Developers Conference in 2011 and 2012 to announce their iPad 2 and 3, respectively. They even took the time slot of Iwata-san during his very influential keynote in 2012, and dominated the press for that day for an iPad refresh. Kinda not surprised that they are half-assing their implementation of the translation layers and offering zero support outside of their developer portal. Great breakdown on this video though! Showing the work that Apple still needs to put in to make sure they can actually run games properly.
Sorry your comment got stolen by a bot
Tbf at the end of the day it will be up to developers to make the games on Mac ,if developers feel like it’s not worth it to make games for macOS there is not much you can do
So there is a lot more to the porting lookout than the wine based tool they showed in this video. And apple do have DTS teams that can help the trick is just like Sony or MS you need to get their attention.
As a gamer in telling you that nobody cares about Mac. It's irrelevant. No gamer is going anywhere near an apple product.
@@hishnash I agree that Apple does have DTS teams, and their developer agreement allows for 2 help incidents per year, but in my experience, it's only been help on the iOS side of things. When I was helping sunset Rocket League on Mac/Linux, one of the major reason for stopping development on the mac version was the total lack of support for MacOS, as opposed to iOS. Same for Linux. There were other reasons as well, but the main reason was the support. In any case, Apple tends to only help/support Middleware (like Unity and Unreal) or developers who make highly requested, or blockbuster games. It's the reason why Kojima was part of the gaming announcement this last week.
As a PC gamer, I REALLY want gaming on Mac to take off. It could incentivise game devs to make games for limited hardware again. The only area we really see small game files with anymore is the Switch. Game devs cant expect Mac users to buy an upgraded model just to play their game.
"western game dev has been here"
"How can you tell?"
"Size: 120 GB"
@@1unar_eclipse It's annoying to DL but storage is cheap AF these days.
Well they don't really need to, developers tend to target a common baseline. The Steam Deck I think goes a long way in getting Devs to optimize for that hardware profile for example. If a game is optimized for Steam Deck, there's little reason it can't run just as well on a powerful enough Mac once Devs optimise it further.
The majority of mac users I know; they upgrade all the dang time, for overpriced hardware. I think the linux proton path is the most likely path for gaming in the future, as windows gets more locked down. Time will see though.
MoltenVK wouldn't need to exist if Apple just supported Vulkan natively.
Yooooo it's Emily!
It's good to see her again
I was also really surprised. It's so cool to have trans representation in LTT now. The fact that she's so accepted there makes them even more sympathetic to me
@@lizkeres2593 well, if you really think about it, we always did.
We just didn't know about it.
I'm glad she's able to come out and with such a supportive employer not for the sake of trans people, but for her own benefit. 🏳️⚧
As much as i would like for this to be an open source solution that both apple and valve will work together on. It won't.
And historically Game devs hate porting their games. There is a reason why the steam deck was a success.
Hate porting? there are many PC games that are console parts, switch games that were ported etc......The game porting toolkit is a first step in the right direction.
@@kninezbanksthey port to windows because that is historically the only platform on PC that matters.
The only reason steam deck is so popular with devs is because they don't need to port stuff. They might need to change a few default configs, might need to patch some bugs specifically for WINE. Other than that they can just use the Win32 build which has proven itself to be the most stable API.
@@tato-chip7612 It doesn't matter game developers still make many games for console then port many console games to PC, porting is not abnormal, it's very normal. Game dev's are just lazy these days, we can't keep asking which comes first, chicken or egg.
For a very long time, the biggest problem with apple was the lack of powerful hardware....most macs were weak for gaming and had integrated intel graphics.
Apple now has powerful hardware in their base laptops and Ipads that can run AAA games like resident evil village fanless.
They've now given devs the tools to more easily port games over.
Apple has done all they can, there are now tens of millions of apple silicon potential gamers, metal api, porting toolkit.
It's all up to the developers now. No more excuses on their end.
They aren't like windows where an OEM builds a machine like;
OEM: Lenovo/MSI/Razer/Asus/Dell...etc
CPU: Intel/AMD
GPU: AMD/Nvidia
OS: Microsoft
API: DirectX/Vulkan (Open API)
For Apple it's;
OEM: Apple
CPU: Apple
GPU: Apple
OS: Apple
API: Metal (Apple)
Apple has an entire ecosystem to consider, Watches, Phones, Tablets, Laptops, desktops, Apple TV etc.......and since they make all their Operating systems......and make all their own CPUs/GPUs.....it was in their best interest to make their own universal optimized API that works well across their ecosystem.
and we've seen how well that worked out.......apple has been sticking AI Neural Engines in their devices since A11 Bionic.
Apple in literally their first year of launching MetalFX Upscaling.......it uses the Neural Engine and Machine Learning components of their Silicon......... like Nvidia tensor cores work with DLSS.........to upscale games and boost performance, first year, already better than FSR and competing with DLSS.
It's why apple started sticking the M1 in the Ipad Air.....they have long term plans.
I won't be surprised if AAA games start coming to the Ipad Air/Ipad Pro's in the next year or two.
That would make Android tablets look like cheap toys running COD mobile and Genshin Impact while the IPads run Death Stranding, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry 5 etc.
I wonder what apple haters will say then. lol
@@kninezbanks well that's the problem it's 1 eco system so it's limited most people who buy a mac buy it for work not gaming and you can't upgrade any part on a mac and because mac has a complete diff build and os any bugs or error will be unique to mac users and will have to make a team just for that just won't be worth making a completely different port that wont be fully upgradeable due to the limit in parts
Most developers won't adopt it because they are worried that Apple will just randomly drop support. As a result at one of their Apple conferences they will announce a whole new system to replace this and that effective immediately this one is discontinued and burn all the developers currently trying to use it. That has been their history so far and I see no reason to expect that to change.
Agree... I know this. They can't see it, but I can. Since they dropped support from Nvidia, amd, 32bit and a lot more a bet.
@@unkown34x33 Why would Apple support things that are no longer on their roadmap?
@@yvan2563 The point is that Apple has a long history of just dropping things. At their conferences they have announced major news APIs and twice Adobe announced Photoshop for that API at next years conference when Apple announced it was no longer supported.
They don't even tell some of their largest application partners about this stuff before they just abandon it. It makes it much harder to get developers for the platform.
Especially considering that most of their game revenue comes from mobile games, so this API might just be a side hustle.
@@bierrollerful Most of game revenue comes from mobile games, period. Mobile game revenue far surpasses any other form of gaming.
What happend to Anthony?
He changed teams lol
Got PRIDED by Hunter Biden during a crack binge
@@be8w now hims lezbionic because he couldn't get a woman as a fat nerd man. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
My work gave me a Mac and the lack of windows snapping was probably one of my first complaints. Rectangle is a godsend, and it is free. I'd recommend it if you also have to use a Mac but miss basic window management.
I have a Mac too. Am I allowed to download rectangle?
@@mr.anirbangoswami ask permission from your company if you're not sure
MacOS 2023 is like Linux 2003. Finder is the worst file browser out there, I rather use terminal alternatives!
biggest issue I still have with it is the way it handles minimised windows and tabbing through stuff.. The rest is _fine_ but while windows feels designed for people using multiple programs, mac feels like something made for people to use only one program at a time.
@@ferinzz you should try using multiple desktops
Speaking as a Linux gamer, Apple are high if they think developers are just going to come over without any incentive. The Steam Deck is receiving explicit developer support because of the massive pre-existing business framework and audience surrounding it.
Proton is great. Devs barely even have to target it to get a game running perfectly these days. But if Proton were all Valve had to offer nobody would even be thinking about supporting Linux.
The main difference is that you do not need to buy dedicated overpriced hardware from a corporate monopoly to run Linux, unlike Mac OS .
@@jcdenton2819 You think macs are overpriced? LMAO
@@Adam-vx6to I know they are overpriced. Especially products on the low end side of the scale. As for Linux, I think Valve has done a good bit of work over the years to bring gaming to other platforms. Remembering SteamOS, and the SteamOS SFF machines they sold as an example. I mean, I'm sure for Valve, they would love to sell more software for Linux, Mac, or whatever ecosystems they can. I just noticed the other day, one of the game I've been patiently waiting for is the Layers of Fear coming out on 6/15/2023, is also coming to Mac's running Apple's own silicon. Now I do think the new Mac systems-on-a-chip are very impressive. That M2 or whatever it was called looks amazing. CPU, GPU, System memory, AI accelerators, all integrated on one big @$$ chip, it is probably the way and wave of the future.
@@jcdenton2819 It actually makes it easier. Much like consoles, when you have a much more limited amount of potential hardware you have to support it makes programming for the hardware easier. You can target the lowest end of M1 macs and if it runs well on that, you can be assured it will run well on everything up the stack.
@@jtjones4727 Sorry, anyone who believes the old myth that Macs are overpriced in the current gen cleraly have a massive bias against Apple.
Your opinion no longer hold weight. Goodbye.
I wonder if they intentionally aligned this with the announcement of their AR headset. Being able to run PC VR games would significantly increase the value proposition.
Hmmm good point
My understanding is that VisionOS is based on iOS, rather than macOS, therefore this porting toolkit will not have massive impact there
You absolutely do not want to run VR games through a translation layer. At best, you can only play the most simple of games, at worst, instant nausea.
@@maksymfedoriaka2851given the similarities in hardware architecture now though does this mean it could be doable in future?
@@m4a44 The thing is, gaming on vision pro does not necessarily mean VR games. Standard games that usually run on a monitor could just be in a giant window in front of you.
This is probably the most under-researched video I’ve ever seen LTT put out.
If Apple funded developers to port games and develop new titles, they'd sell more Macs, and those of us who prefer Macs would be very happy. They need to stop obsessing with the iPhone sales and increase Mac sales to ramp up the user base.
Linus is speaking like a true PC cultist in this video, not knowing what he's talking about!
yeah seriously this is just embarrassing for LTT
Seriously. Woulda gotten better performance with any other mac chip than the ultra.
in what way? I'm totally ignorant about macs and apple in general
@@bardockshinyT used the M1 Ultra for their testing which has known compatibility bugs with the Gaming Toolkit. The Ultra chips are basically two SoCs merged together and it seems the Gaming Toolkit doesn’t play nice with that specific chip - the Max, Pro, and Base M chips all have decent performance for a lot of games.
Literally if they had used any other Apple Silicon chip they would have seen much better performance.
I don't know if i missed it, but Proton was actually initially available on MacOS. But Valve got sick of Apple's approach to gaming and dropped it a few months after Protons announcement. They've also given up with VR support, with that only working on x86 and not ARM. However, Valve did update Steam to be 64 bit, and apparently it's the only client which features it (windows and linux clients are supposedly still 32 bit), because other wise they'd be locked out of being used on Catalina onwards (iirc)
In that you're correct, and frankly. Not worth putting up with Apple's attitude
Even when someone does what they want, they still pull the rug afterwards
Umm, Windows and 64 bit Linux are actually 64 bit, in fact, some 32 bit Windows native programs will not even run on 64 bit Windows builds.
@@Blox117how is this relevant?
@@Blox117 keep your transphobic comments to yourself.
Either accept her (Emily, not Anthony) or leave.
@@l0zerth Pretty sure they just meant the Steam client, not the OS.
Funfact: Linux was the first OS to support x86_64. Way before you could even buy x86_64 hardware.
I had a big smile when Emily showed up
It's super annoying that Apple isn't doing this with a true open source community, but now that the community sees it's possible there's nothing stopping a true open source solution from happening eventually.
till then Proton is our friend.
its existed for nearly 2 decades mate, and there have been success in that too. Apple is just slow (as always) outside the sphere of making fashion devices.
Wine (which has many variations at this point, and dates back to 1993), crossover and many others.
I think the open source community is already avoiding anything Apple makes like the plague anyway and has no motivation to care about any of this.
@@Blox117 go outside
Apple has fundamentally been against being open about anything since it's founding. As Linus said they have a long history of using open source elements to develop their highly proprietary code, and contributing very little back, even actively fighting back at times when the open source community makes breakthroughs in opening their OS's.
Apple was built as a walled garden, and are clearly doing everything they can to stay that way as much as they can.
As someone who grew up gaming and ended up switching to mac for work, I’d love to see developers adopt this tool and optimize for other platforms! If Apple incentivizes game devs to make their games cross platform, I feel this could be a big hit
I remember Mac gaming via Steam being sort of okay back in the day. It wasn't very big but hey you could boot up a small indie game or two without needing to boot up your dedicated gaming PC. But then the 32 bit to 64 apocalypse happened where Apple just gave up on keeping the Rosetta translation around. Apple really needs to get serious and put in the effort to upkeep on APIs and Steam support if it really wants to get past this stigma of gaming on Macs.
Or people could just abandon them like the y deserve
it still can boot up a lot of indie games
LOL mac gaming
Rosetta is for translating PowerPC apps. It get dropped on OS X Lion.
The 32 bit support is just some old libraries. They are not the same thing.
As soon as Apple thinks intel CPU is completely done for. They will remove Rosetta 2 as well. Making macOS only run ARM64 apps.
I still have machine running on OS X Snow Leopard so I can use those old apps.
Apple sucks.
Games being added to different platforms like Linux and Mac is a big step forward for the tech future
new platforms?
@@NonsensicalSpudz I think they meant 'new platforms' as in making new ports of games (old or new), and bringing gaming to platforms that were not usually natively supported in the past.
@@NonsensicalSpudz shit I meant to say like different platforms
bro they don't need to add games to linux. Wine and shit make most games just work
Yeah just what we need more idiots with money in gaming. BRING ON THE MICROTRANSACTIONS!!!
Metal makes developing cross platform applications that use the GPU a nightmare. Vulkan was supposed to unify the ecosystem, but Apple again tries to lock users into their ecosystem by not supporting it and shipping their slightly similar garbage instead.
It is unfortunately very anti-consumer behavior and makes Apple a garbage choice for developing games for.
That is a large assistant, are those extensions?
Unfortunately here are multiple wrong statements:
- The GPU display in the Metal Performance HUD is not the usage in percents but the time taken by the GPU in milliseconds to render the image
- Hollow Knight was already working without GPTK
if Apple only supported Vulkan... That would basically enable them to run Proton with Rosetta and make it easier for native ports too. But after all Apple is still Apple.
MoltenVK exists.
VK support would not allow you to just run proton. Or run run native PC VK engines.
Apples GPUs are TBDR pipeline GPUs and while you can write a VK engine for this type of GPU PC VK engines (and proton) are not written for defined rendering GPUs and if they run they would run very very badly. This is the tradeoff you have with any low level api, you get better perf but you also sacrifice portability.
I'm going to be VERY blunt here... I just want Apple to die at this point. The M1 was the only good thing they've put out since, literally, the first iPhone. Otherwise, they've been nothing but an awful influence in every industry they inhabit. (And Microsoft is starting to get just as bad too, so I'm NOT defending them either.)
And it sucks because I get the appeal of their core driving force. Customized software for their own customized hardware. It's a noble goal to be sure, but Apple is not the company (or at least, not these days) that can actually follow through with their promises of quality. All I see from them for the most part is just greed and anti-consumer bullshit. Oh, and """courage""".
What's even funnier on this is that the people reverse engineering M1 for the Linux port found out that the GPU is designed in a way to also support Vulkan, but the software does not.
@@hishnash Precisely. The problem for supporting VK is fundamental to the architecture. My bet here is that Apple was committed to their current GPU architecture at the fundamentals level too far before VK came into the picture, so they went off and did their own thing. This wouldn't be the first time Apple "reinvented the wheel" because their product development lifecycle didn't align with industry movements, even when those industry moves could be seen coming years ahead. People underestimate how long Apple hardware products are in the pipeline before they see the light of day, and it has a huge effect on these sorts of things.
I wonder how many comments have been deleted.
@@MudSluggerBP you know why?😏
@@MudSluggerBPcome on you know why
Emily!!! I'm so glad she's back in videos ❤
@@burnzy3210 Emily is the name of the woman who appeared on camera with Linus.
They have two Emilys.
@@burnzy3210 Anthony transitioned. Their name is Emily now.
Usual trolls. Don't feed them
@@Xjuijau She dyed her hair & she changed her name. She’s also taking HRT, and there’s probably other things she’s doing too to help herself be who she is.
What is a troon?
an abomination of nature
@@despitebeingso you mean yourself?
This looks great, I’m excited to see where it leads. I’m glad LTT is taking time to talk about it too.
I'm sticking with windows for now, think macs are still massively expensive for what they are, plus I like the ability to upgrade my PC
Not to mention repair it.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think the idea of the Game Porting Tool is meant to be about converting Windows or Linux users to MacOS; I think it's more about giving MacOS users more opportunities to play games on the Macs that they already own.
Is more systems that enabled devs to get their games to more gamers with the same or less effort supposed to be a bad thing?
macs are cheaper than windows pcs, better built and have better hardware. you can get a m1 air for 799 which has DAC Premium build i7 speeds and great software and screen, for 800 youll get some shitty chromebook or i5 11th gen laptop that lags, is plasticky creaky cheap and has a terrible trackpad.
Okay let me be a little bit more fair to the mac, I think if I want a standard office computer I'd go windows, If I wanted a high end gaming computer I'd go windows again. If I wanted a computer to do high end graphic design type stuff I'd then go for a mac. I think they're great at what they do but windows PCs just seem more versatile.
emily may have a new name but they are still my favorite ltt member.
What was her old name
@@harryl6596 does it matter? She is the same person she has always been, except now she's able to live publicly as she is and not need to hide it. 🏳️⚧
I think apple is slowly realizing that they have to bring new users to their platform.
From my perspective, it seems like everybody who wants to be locked into the Apple eco system, already is. If they can get Windows programms to run decently too, they will have a massive chunck of new potential users.
I am not a fan that people are switching to a company like Apple, but it is definitely great that they are improving on their eco system.
And it is also cool to see some games work halfway okish for now that aren't supported on the platform.
Well new apple users will definitely not come from current Linux users unless there is a very radical change in the company.
Linux at least partially brings you into the mindset "I can do anything here" and that will never be welcome at apple so Linux usere won't move.
except if asahi Linux becomes mainstream.
Linux is a small subset of users, they make up 1% of all pcs.
@@168original7 I bet that will increase when win10 goes EOL
@@verumignis4778 That's pure cope. Linux is a better platform, but the user-friendliness is NOWHERE near Windows. Imagine having to put "code" into "consoles" to simply install basic programs. I'm sorry but people will rather switch to Win11 (its getting slightly better at a snail's pace) at the end of Win10 than switch to Linux.
@@vik1ng313 All user friendly distros have graphical package managers so theres no need to ever open a terminal for the average user. If you want to do something more advanced like VMs with GPU passthrough (generally something only power users would want to do) then the terminal is really useful and thats why its there. If you insist on everything being graphical then openSUSE has YaST which pretty much replaces the terminal.
Im sure a lot of people will downgrade to win11 when win10 goes EOL but some of them will upgrade to linux and with more users comes more support.
From what I've seen from other people running the game I think it's safe to say that the Cyberpunk performance would've been a lot better if the shaders were fully compiled as well. I've seen it running at 30fps at 1440p Ultra settings on the M2 Max (which is probably still nowhere near nativ performance, in Metal-optimized cross platform benchmarks the M2 Max benchmarks like a laptop 4080).
Yep
I sense a 30 day gaming on Mac challenge.
Which will last all of 3 days.
Where did Anthony go?
Emily is Anthony
Just things have changed and she is now more comfortable as who she is now
I do hope that it doesnt discourage you from watching LTT and any videos hosted by her
@@YamiSpyro2011 He's a troon
@@YamiSpyro2011 I literally can’t watch without cringing, 50000 years of human evolution being laughed at will do that to normal people. It’s hard to watch a guy you know speaking like a girl
He went to imagination land.
He went to the current thing shop and got some sterilization drugs for his AGP fetish. Hot market right now. His experimental sacrifice will be remembered.
The part that gives me the most hope was the very end where you showed SotTR at average 32fps on GPT but native 110fps. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE. So any games that are running in GPT 30-60fps sound like they would be GREAT if ported natively.
very bold to assume most game studios will port anything on macos unless paid directly to do so
That is a monumental 'if' at the end there
it really depends on game. I think some of those extremes are due to fact that the layer has a heavy cpu tax, and many games are cpu bound and gpu bound not just gpu bound. if you run a game that isn't heavy on cpu, porting kit gpu performance is probably only about 20% off of fps from native. but if game needs a lot of cpu, that's a problem cause cpu is doing heavy lifting going through literally 3 layers of translation (x86 to arm, windows to wine, D3D to Metal)
Hi Emily!! Is this your first proper video back!! Nice to see you back on the channel!
Hopefully this brings more games to Mac. I primarily work on a Mac and, while I do have a PC (which hardly ever gets turned on because work takes all my time but is theoretically for gaming) it means people like me who use a Mac for our day to day work don't need to spend extra money on another computer, if we want to game. More options for consumers is a win.
Interesting to me is now the cost risk analysis for developers has shrunk. I'm trying not to get high on the copium but I'd think it's no longer safe to assume developing for Mac is a write-off.
@@patrickmohr6985 It will still require all of the dev work to port. The tool is not at all fit to be used inplace of a port. The real issues are
1) userbase. How many people owning a mac are people that will want to game
2) their review system. Supporting a product on mac is worse than supporting one on any other platform if the issues that plague the phone store also affect the pc.
If there is not a large enough userbase to warrant it, and the support from the platform owner is 3rd tier, why bother?
Yeah in the past you could run Boot camp and have decent support for games on there on a Mac computer, the loss of that on Apple Silicon has been detrimental, so hopefully they can have better support moving forward.
@@patrickmohr6985 People have always made money developing on Mac, for Mac but I'd suggest the overwhelming majority of developers who *need* a Mac are developing for iPhone. I don't technically need a Mac for work - I *could* use a PC, I just have everything set up the way I like on Mac, been using it for about 5 years and I'd prefer to leave it that way.
Alternatively, they could bring back Bootcamp for Apple Silicon. I use Bootcamp on a 2017 iMac right now and it's fine, irritating to reboot for half my games but SSDs make it much easier than back in the early 2010's. I know they need Windows on ARM first, but ARM is a significant and growing segment of the market so It's coming.
41%? More like 41% body fat
I like how Emily's name is 3 syllables just sits right with my brain
Anthony's name is 3 syllables.
@@kodybuffettwilson Anthony who?
@@MetalMarianne Anthony Young, the other man in this video aside from Linus Sebastien.
@@kodybuffettwilson The fact that you feel this need to run through every comment on this video and say these things makes me think you need to take a loooong look in your closet's mirror.
@@sophiophile I see a man, just like Anthony.
I remember learning about the history of Mac gaming a while ago - the classics like Myst and Bungie's Marathon. Not nearly the number of games as on PC, but some very innovative ones. I'm excited to see where this attempt at reviving Mac gaming goes!
There is something wrong with your testing guys! I’m getting 3x the performance on a mbp. You shouldn't have uploaded this video, it's a lack of professionalism.
The problem with the Mac was never porting, Unity especially makes it easy and Unreal is not far behind. The problem was user base. We had our games ported to the Mac and the sales were just low compared to PC and Consoles. And its not even the sales thats the issue, its the support cost for the platform. Its always an additional platform to build (which takes time even if you have a CI solution implemented), test, and resolve unique bugs for. And the bugs are often unique and hard to fix as most devs are working on Windows. If you’re not supported by Apple on the platform then there is almost no return on the investment and the “official” port of wine will not change that. Making native apps when you are using Unity or Unreal is already doable and requires the similar amount of work without the additional overhead by wine. And won’t change the amount of support you need to do for the platform.
This isn't accurate. Apple used to have the lead in gaming user base, in the 90s, but they squandered it by making it difficult to develop for and not putting any effort into attracting gamers.
@@coopercummings8370 I'm talking about a current situation, not what led to it :)
@@matthewblank7691 but can't you see, Matt, 30 years ago the situation was different!
Oh yes .... the "who came first, chicken or the egg?" dilemma is all over your comment. Yeah, who came first, the user base or the games that support it ?
@@marcogeracao1999 You need to have the user base. It can emerge organically like with Windows but often you need to build it. One way to build it is to throw a lot of money (what Epic’s trying to do with their store) on exclusives, ports and other deals, so the gamers come and the devs see there is money to be made. Other way is to migrate them - what Apple tried to do with Apple Arcade basically - from other places. Valve succeded with it with the Steam Deck. They took the users from PCs to their own platform and behold, the native Linux builds for it are a non issue for devs big and small.
AYYY Welcome back Emily, Been a while since we've seen her in videos
HI EMILY! GLAD TO SEE YOU AGAIN!
Wait… Emily?? I’m confused. I thought that was a dude and the second best computer guy on the team
well.. you're right, it is a dude
she (emily) came out as trans publicly a month or so ago, but was on a break from showing up on LTT for the sake of her mental health & the team. you may have known her as anthony before!
@@la1niwakura yeah I looked in to this and it makes sense now
Yeah I'm thinking that this Emily guy might be on the spectrum and transitioned to fit into a community. It almost happened to me and I suspect the same of him.
It’s a mentally ill dude
Great to see Emily on the channel. We’re behind you. This is awesome :)
@@burnzy3210 He's trans now
SHE'S transgender and always has been.
She has only now come out publicly as such. 🏳️⚧
Usual troll! Don't feed into it
I want Apple to support Vulkan natively. I really would like Vulkan to be the future of graphics APIs.
They won't, they want everything to be forced in their own ecosystem.
that wouldn't change a thing for gaming as a whole.
@@Caddy666 that's not true.
Vulkan is easily the most performant graphics API, it's a fully open standard and it's crossplatform.
Supporting Vulkan would get rid of two separate translation layers on MacOS. Or even more if the game itself supports Vulkan.
That would mean a huge performance and compatibility gain.
yeah but Microsoft tries to force direct x bullshit
@@cnr_0778 Its not supported on Xbox and PlayStation, only PC. And these are the more important platforms for most genres and regions. D3D is both Xbox and Windows-PC, making it easier to port. There is a reason, why almost no one (outside of mosty id Software, which have a history using OpenGL instead of D3D on PC) uses Vulkan on PC for commercial gaming products.
This seems a lot like what Linux is doing with proton and wine(he’ll it seems to use a lot of the same technologies under the hood). But it seems like they want to make it seem like they did all the work and made something brilliant.
From what I've heard, Apple heavily relies on open-source tools and technologies for their toolkit. Essentially throwing ~proton~ Wine into the toolkit.
Unfortunately though, Apple are known for barely contributing development back to the open-source tools and packages their software forks from/uses.
@@boneappletee6416 More specifically, it uses Wine and Apple's translation DLL for DirectX12 to Metal.
@@jonathanalonso6492 You're correct, I hadn't finished the video yet when I commented. 😂
So... all this and it's just Wine.... :o
@@3polygons No it is Wine plus Rosetta.
What happened to anthony?
Victim of big pharma exploitation.
she came out as trans, her name is emily now
Ar you serious. Wot is happening in Canada and USA only sheet. Bat remember in the bigining. The Good created Adam. And. Eva. Man and Woman.
@@evelynuwu oh okay, thx.
@@idkanymore3382 im not sure why you're calling me a groomer? i don't work as a pet groomer
Because Bootcamp (running Windows natively) is dead on Apple Silicon, this is a good change! I think bootcamp was always the "excuse" to the terrible native support for games on Macs, so they really had to do something when it's no longer there! Personally I have moved away from using my mac for gaming, as I have a windows SFFPC for that now. Just using Mac for work, which it is excellent at... but maybe if this progress enough, I would use it for some gaming on the go.
valve has been officially allowing peeps to install windows natively on the steam deck for some time now while still constantly improving gaming on linux. So it sucks that apple isnt doing the same thing for mac os.
@@xt6997 It's not that Apple doesn't allow users to install Windows on Mac, it's that Microsoft doesn't make an OS that can run natively on the Apple Silicon. That's Microsoft's problem. If you WANT Windows on an Apple Silicon Mac, Parallels does the whole thing for you. I'm a software engineer and don't have any performance gripes with it.
@@TheOfficialOriginalChad idk if yk this but the biggest reason why windows on arm isnt a thing on arm macs natively was because of a license deal with qualcom. There is no other reason stopping microsoft and apple from realising another bootcamp equiv for arm.
@@xt6997 but there’s literally no point since virtualization performs just as well…
@@TheOfficialOriginalChad thats a lie, virtualization is very taxing on pcs, and you need a lot of cpu cores to even get decent peformance.
This is a great tool. Its obvious Apple doesn't have much interest in gaming on their platforms but recognizes that some users might and might not have room or budget for a second unit to game with. Now developers can give it a shot, even if its a lazy version of porting.
Also, apple silicon has a lot of performance that isn’t being used to its full capabilities by most users, so it’ll be good to see what they can really do when a developer actually gives it a shot.
You can stream it already or cloud gaming, playing it natively? Impossible
If they putt effort into something it’s because eventually they want a piece of the cut, so they are thinking long term.
They do on mobile
Apple cares about their ecosystem and nothing else, and what's coming next in the ecosystem besides generational chip refreshes? The headset needs some beefy hardware running it for the Apple level of user experience that's expected, and for everything that isn't needed needs layer upon layer of transcription to run at this same expected level of fidelity. Apple is putting themselves ahead of the curve so that launches are mostly nonproblematic day 1.
As a side note, this is also huge for ARM and may be one of the last major pushes the industry needs to adopt ARM at the consumer desktop, and quite possibly even workstation, level; hopefully along with interest from ARM themselves in producing a more efficient microarchitecture catered towards the desktop ecosystem, instead of chip manufacturers having to take lower-end microarches and scale them to desktop-like performance. Apple is proving viability of desktop on ARM with every generation, M1 was general viability and general transcription layer use, M2 doubles down and is proving performance viability though they still need to work on transcription and utilizing the entire SOC's offerings, M3 will have to be pretty heavy into hardware viability considering they're wanting to get into XR hardware and complete viability of the transcription layers for any non-native application running as if they were native applications; keep in mind just the display and rendering in VR/AR is a step above, XR is also piping in sensor data for inversed-AR use, not to mention all of the tracking and various other sensor data that has to go through the same chips, etc., M3 will have to be a hardware and software powerhouse, and I'm hoping Apple is smart enough to introduce a coprocessor GPU into the ecosystem, as this will expand the ARM ecosystem and further prove viability of a full hardware desktop with an ARM CPU. Keep in mind that Microsoft wanted to do this exact thing a decade ago when the original Surface launched with Windows RT, yet it failed because they didn't have the hardware backing it, even their most recent attempts at desktop on ARM haven't had the hardware to back it because Apple is the _only_ company in the industry utilizing proper desktop-grade chips, and because of this Apple is pioneering the desktop ARM movement and they have to be the ones to prove viability for any other chip manufacturer to invest into the idea of it, which is why M3-M4 might be the tipping point where we finally see the industry migration to ARM desktops, especially with hardware, software, and performance having been proven to be viable, especially with the software being simple enough to just transcribe x86 with ease, which gives programmers a massive grace period to migrate from one architecture to the other, and that programming changeover grace period is the silver lining that would make an industry migration entirely feasible; not to mention all of this could hypothetically mean we can now run x86 apps on handsets, and the changeover would eventually mean mobile and desktop apps are within the same lineage and only differentiate at scale, plus it'd be interesting to see how mobile apps do scale to desktop applications just for the sake of experimentation especially with games.
Apple has laid the groundworks to offer developers the ability to build games that run smoothy on Mac, but the developers haven't had the motivation to do so yet. I feel they've released this porting kit so they provide developers with an easy method of releasing some Mac games, which does 2 things: 1. It attracts more gamers to Mac, making it a bigger and more interesting market for game devs, and 2. creates a little frustration with devs when they notice their games don't run as smooth as they should do, which could lead to them releasing a native version.
Shout out for Emily!
This reminds me of back in the day when I would load the Power PC windows emulator software on my ‘crazy fast’ 6100/66mhz power mac! It would just barely run windows and any games run on the system overlay hardly had any frame rate at all! This was back in ‘95. It’s crazy to think that in almost 20 years Apple still hasn’t wanted to get Into the gaming side of the market.
It goes back to the mindset and corporate culture started by Steve Jobs, believing that desktops are meant for productivity, period.
Until they get out of their headquarters group-think, Apple will never actually support gaming on Mac OS, certainly not at the level of Microsoft, or even the Linux community.
@@l0zerth cough Halo cough
30 years.
@@flandrble huh?
Emily? Did I miss a memo?
LTT retweeted and Emily herself came out as transgender, it's on her new channel, "Emily Young" with her as pfp. It's probably easy to find since video went viral. Hope that helps!
Poor Anthony has been brainwashed
Careful there, @@themassmauler, that sort of heretical talk will bring down the inquisitors.
@@fezzik1620 let them come
@@themassmauleryes
What did that dude do to his hair lol
More than that, he's saying he's "Emily" now.
It’s called a Balayage, my girlfriend had one the other day. Fucking cost me 240 bucks.
She looks pretty great 😃
re: supporting developers: As much as I love the fact they are releasing more compilation and native apple silicon tools, the landscape for professional developers remains tedious. Especially for publishing, where compilation MUST be done on an apple product, Apple is downright hostile to attempts to host machines in any sort of server/shared environment. I would love to see any sort of support come back like that apple server you showcased a few months ago
It's insane because the only way to have anything close that would barely do the job would be the new Mac Pro with expansions to make it a centralized "server"... which is less than ideal. Indie devs may port their game is it's small enough and runs well with minimal tweaking through the Toolkit using like a Mac Mini, but anyone with a more complex workflow and an actual team has to figure out how to add a Mac to their development pipeline, and if you don't want to purchase a Mac Pro (Or MULTIPLE, for a large enough studio), you're gonna be fiddling with a Mac Studio and thunderbolt docks and adapters.
It's still better than before, just still somewhat inconvenient. Maybe once it's out new projects can experiment including Mac development since the beginning, making it less costly and troublesome, providing data to help further improve these tools. I really want this to take off, because having alternatives to Windows is great, Proton already makes Linux viable for gaming, and Mac is now catching up. I hope in a couple years I don't have to have both a macbook and a windows laptop for gaming, and I can just run a Macbook Pro for portable everything with great battery life.
Yeah especially since Mac OS server edition is dead
I still have no idea how to make an app bundle ..
I was so stressed out in anticipation of the sponsor segue I couldn't focus on the content.
13:06 freakin killed me
You conditioned us Linus, please don't do this again.
I swear you knew what you were doing to us at 14:13
same tbh. i expect a segue anytime he says "just like" or anything of the sort at this point
If Apple wants to convince me they care about gaming on their platform, maybe they should do something to allow playing older 32-bit macOS titles. There is a large library of games that are unplayable on modern macOS.
Doubt that is happening especially with the new arm architecture
I lost a few big games I bought back on the Mac App store because of that and I hate that. They weren't even that old
Apple silicons own customised CPUs do not support 32-bit anymore. They would have to emulate or translate it.
Some 32 bit Windows programs don't even run on modern versions of Windows anymore, and Microsoft is the company that has built itself on backwards compatibility, while Apple has literally said what do you mean you don't have a current gen iphone to set up your other Apple device, so don't hold your breath...
Might be able to get 15fps on Spectre if you use an emulator.
to get window snapping, you have to hold the the green button on the top left corner.
It's such a poor design, thank god for Yabai actually making their desktop environment usable.
I think the downside with APGT is its being made by a non gaming company and is pretty much closed source, whereas proton not only is supported by valve the biggest (and some people would argue the only) PC game launcher, but it is also open sourced so theoretically anyone can look at the code see stuff that wouldnt work with say fall guys (just a random example) but know that changing a few lines of code can make it work submit it and then everyone can use the fall guys specific proton version
Very cool unexpected cameo from Gorlock the Destroyer
See, my mum always said that Wine cured everything. She’s never wrong!
Why Linus is WRONG about Mac's Game Porting Toolkit - ua-cam.com/video/600nlHUNIv0/v-deo.html
It's great to see Emily back! There's been a serious lack of adult supervision with Linus and Jake left alone...
Did Linus say Emelie to Anthony??
She is transgender
@@ItsMeOscar. I did not know that, I hope she's happy and got the acceptance she deserves 😄
Why did Linus call Andrew “Emily”? Am I missing something?
I thought his name was Anthony
She came out as transgender a while back on her personal channel
@Scyborne *she
Absolute lack of research. Expected more from LTT.
Emily? Wait....what?! LOL
Hoppy Prode Moth!
Happy Pride Emily!!!
So anthony is Emily now?
Yes.
I bet comments are being deleted...
Eh - I dunno, I've seen some racy comments on here. Hell, I've made a few myself.
I suggested the obvious name should have been, "Ann-phoney"
Lots of incorrect information.
These new Apple Silicon Macs have decently capable hardware in them. The PC gamer tinkerer in me has me curious about how games will run on these, so the more games getting easily ported to Apple, the better.
The "Proton is killing linux native games" just isn't true, take a look at the actual numbers and you'll immediately realize there is more and more new games natively running on linux every year and it keeps going up
finally we get a video with Emily. Good shit guys! Glad it didnt take long.
I was a bit annoyed watching this video tbh, knowing what actual performance people are getting vs what happened in the video. Seems like not much research was done beforehand
Bro dropped more tech tips Than the amount of my uncles that have fallen down the stairs
Omg what happen to Anthony when did this happen?
Too much Linux
That not her name anymore she came out as transgender her name is now Emily
@@burnzy3210 no she came out as transgender her name is now Emily
@@ehtech_ is he just joking because he’s clearly a man
@@burnzy3210 wat
As a game developer who is currently waiting for another one of my comrades to figure out how to get an ipad specially provisioned so that our cloud build can be opened on the platform so I can test a small change to a single variable, knowing that I will ultimately have to go dig up a macbook and install a ton of proprietary software just to get an accurate profiling setup; I am a bit wary of exactly how easy and pain free and convenient their game porting service will truly be.
The main bread and butter of the porting toolkit is not this wine based tool. But chatter the HLSL to Metal IR to Metal machine code compiler that you can run on windows or Mac to compile your shaders to metal compatible shaders. The aim being that you have a single source of truth for your shaders across platforms and that your not using source code transforming tools that tend to be full of bugs but shatter using an LLVM IR transformer that means when you use the Metal debugger you will see the HLSL code from the source maps.
HOW EMBARRASSING FOR LTT
Yeah.... Emily? 😅
@@roguesource8035 is Emily one of the new trans people? Was that the big guy?
Feels a bit phoned in all things considered. If Apple really wanted developers to port their games to Mac the best thing they could do would be to support Vulkan rather than requiring Metal for shaders. This almost feels like a weird middle ground to prevent a compatibility layer good enough that it'd just be built into Steam from existing as it does on Linux
Apple loves controlling, and having devs using Vulkan instead of Metal is a no go for them
They do that because Metal is optimized to their OS. They’d rather force the hands of developers than to lose 15 minutes of battery life or 5% performance by supporting vulkan.
@@JaceKeller You are giving them far too much credit on this. Vulkan is open, they can build on it in such a way to have all the advantages of metal. In reality they are doing a MS in reverse. They don't want to open the door to native Vulkan programming on their platform, so that in forcing Metal, things made in Metal stay only on their platform.
Yoo Anthony’s hair looks great
Emily. That's her name now.
@@MetalMarianne what?
@@MetalMarianne ....what? when did he do that?
Yo Anthony is back!
Happy to see Emily, I missed her !
stunning and brave
Hahaha!
I clapped!!!
Remember when Steve Jobs called Android "a stolen product"... that's rich.
Why is that?
Linus: Oh hey, Elden Ring is running at 30 FPS!
Me: Bruh, if I wanted to play Elden Ring at 30 FPS I would just play it on my Steam Deck and save the money lol
did linus say "Emily ?
They’re trans! 🎉❤
Great to see Emily back in front of the camera. Hope to see more of her in. solo linux and benchmarking content soon.
who is Emily
Same!! I just hope she takes it at her own pace and doesnt feel pressured now that she's out. Like her own comfort is most important imo.
That said, happy to see her!! I recall her being in more videoa way back and i liked seeing her around :p
it's a he.
@@AudioThunderit’s called gender affirmation. Not to hard to gasp. We support emily.
wtf is the emily thing not a joke?
Welcome back in front of the camera Emily !!!
Would be really interesting to check how perforfmance compares on Asahi Linux (project for running Linux on Apple silicon). Actually an Asahi Linux video in general seems cool.
At the insanely good pacing they have demonstrated (bless you Rust support in Linux modules and Mesa), maybe in a year or two? But no chance you'll get a comparison in time to satisfy your doubts.
(Don't worry tho: Linux already runs 2-6x faster than macOS in general, so you can still expect insane performance boosts when they eventually get there)
@Matt M I'm basing this on evidence shown by Marcan and other Asahi devs. I'd gladly attach them here (they're on Treehouse Social), but UA-cam deletes my comments every time I attempt that or even using the wrong words...
@Matt M 6x is not supposed to be the average, but the best case scenario. The specific test where that came up from was something as dumb as making a tarfile, but it still ended up almost 7 times faster than macOS ‒ I guess it's a synthetic benchmark and not a very telling one, but the numbers are still there nonetheless, and still wild.
@Matt M The 2-6× claims are misleading for sure, but they do come from somewhere. Specifically, many CLI tools do consistently run that much faster.
Also, the disk access layer is supposedly way more optimized when it comes to the Linux kernel compared to XNU which has some OO, message-driven contraption.