How Not To Defend The Last Jedi
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Here's a response to (some of) Shaun's Last Jedi defence video
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Original Video: • A Defense of The Last ...
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Please note: We here at SinsSins don't own the rights to The Last Jedi, or any other media clips used in this video. The clips used were used under terms of fair use for review in a transformative way. - Фільми й анімація
I just want to say I'm fully aware this may be controversial because of the topic. All that I can say is I've done my best to be fair and the last thing I'd want to do would be to misrepresent Shaun in anyway, or to let my own personal biases get the better of me. All I can say is I've tried my absolute best to be fair and honest. Also Shaun if you end up seeing this, I love what you do man, and even when I don't agree with you I always find your perspective valuable.
Jay Exci's SinsSins now this is pod racing
I think you did great. Please do one for Captain Marvel criticism. Or at least read some UA-cam comments on your other channel.
@@LibertyLocalizer That's coming, but I want to see the movie first
Nice work, I think you did a pretty good job in representing his video and giving fair criticism (And im a fan of Shaun and share his opinion for the most part)
It definitely didnt feel as antagonistic as some other defense responses, so good job.
Also wow i just realized this video is a response to a response of the response to a movie...
And this comment is a response to that video!
...weird...
Luke giving his lightsaber to R2 is not a flaw it's a contingency plan.
I think plot holes matter to a degree. If there are enough plot holes or the plot holes are really obvious, they will take you out of the suspension of the disbelief required for a movie. That's a serious problem. But if the plot holes are minor and generally unnoticeable, then it's ok becuase they never ruined the immersion.
@Obi-Wan Kenobi That and the tactics in the last jedi were generally bad. Given we are meant to believe these guys are in high positions of power. If they show nothing that would make you believe they got there by some sort of merit. Then it brings up the question of how did they get there? Was it like the roman empire where they had issues of generals and powerful admirals turning against them due to winning great victories and then using the troops that are loyal to them rather then the crown to start a rebellion?
Are they easy to control? Questions questions and more questions.
Given the first order goal is to crush the resistance but they seem to not be very interested in destroying the resistance. Tie fighters are shown to work rather well, disable their hanger and kill most of resistance high ranking crew. Making it a perfect time to attack during the chaos but rather then reinforce the tie fighters with more tie fighters or bombers. They call them back. Given at the end of the day you figure someone would want to you know, win this war and put someone in charge who knows what they are doing or try tactics new tactics or stick to ones that are getting results. Which it just seems strange the first order doesn't seem to have bombers, even when it's show they can do a lot of number early on in the film. Taking out a big capital super ship aka the dreadnought. For ideally you want tactics to be reasonable or given reasons as to why these characters are so bad and why they have maintain their positions for this long if they are not good at their jobs. Given Vader force choke better officers, that would of perform and done much better then what we have seen from first order officers. Like why are they sitting around doing nothing? When they have no fuel issues, could perform a pincer move or send out massive waves of tie fighters to finish off the resistance?
Given you don't need perfect tactics just make it seem reasonable that both sides have idea of what they are doing. That or a good reason to explain why they are left in charge if they seem to have no idea what they are doing. That or why is a general in charge of a navy? Shouldn't that be the role of an Admiral? Given to point a few things out. Oh yeah they got this high position due to family connections. They steal the credit from lower ranking officers and blame their failures onto others. Allowing them to maintain their high position, even with them lacking a good idea of what to do. That or relay on a few key trusted officers and with them suddenly dying, are lacking skilled leadership to aid them in running the army and then it fails apart from the inside. Yet the last jedi it just seems the majority of military leadership is just moron after moron, with no one having an idea of what they are doing. Which makes it seem odd, given the first order is meant to be this huge military power that is taking over the galaxy. How are they taking over the galaxy if their tactics are so bad? Given during the last jedi, they lost a dreadnought. A fair few star destroyers. Along with many tie fighters. If Rey had been with a larger group, they could of wipe out the first order and it's leadership then and there with a massive attack on Hux and Kylo's forces. It's like wow. They lost so many people fighting this tiny resistance group. More well armed and better gear up forces across the galaxy, should be able to just wipe the floor with them. Which is not a good look for the first order or this new series of movies in general. For it makes the first order look very much like morons. Who are not a threat. Given this is a Pyrrhic victory. The general that term is name after Pyrrhic won a number of battles but at a high crippling cost, that it ended up costing him the war. He won the battle but lost the war. Which it just seems like that should be the cost from what is shown of first order leadership.
Obi-Wan Kenobi
I think this is correct. It’s certainly how I feel about plot holes.
A movie is going to have errors of varying size. If they’re too big, it’s undeniably an issue.
Saying that they don’t matter at all is signalling the death knell of storytelling as a medium.
Ok but if you really think about it most of the plot holes are self explained
Gamer King Like what?
That's the point. The number of plot holes or the single glaringly suspension of disbelief breaking one . I do believe there is ranking in plot holes from minor to major.
There're two key difference between the failure of Finn and Rose in TLJ and the failure of Han and the gang in Empire.
1. In Empire, there's a big difference between failing and not going at all. Being betrayed and captured in Cloud City is a much different outcome from being captured at Hoth, and would mean different things for the plot moving forward. Finn and Rose failing their mission mean very little when the same thing would've happened if they didn't go at all. They'd still end up on Krayt fighting for the Resistance.
2. The consequences of failure are much more dire in Empire than in TLJ. Failing in Empire moved the plot forward. Failing in TLJ made little to no difference since Holdo had no intention of hyperjumping away even if the tracker was disabled, and Poe's mutiny failed regardless.
While I agree that subplot was poorly handled, it's not actually irrelevant. Remember, their mutiny and side mission fucked the main plain, resulting in a lot of losses that they otherwise would have avoided. Their mission failng misses the point: they followed the direction of the hotheaded moron into action they were completely unprepared for, had no real idea how to do, screwed up and nearly destroyed the rebellion right there. If they just did their jobs, their secrets wouldn't have been revealed, the rebels be mostly alive and in hiding.
Otherwise , the mission handled some worldbuilding and character stuff.
The actually stupid part of the writing was that poe should have been tossed out an airlock for that and the subsequent mutiny. Because getting other people killed is just what he does, and clandestine resistance movements working against a major power really can't afford that.
@@Daemonworks I would almost agree with you if it weren't for the fact that the mutiny only happened because even AFTER Poe tells Holdo of Rose & Finn's bogus journey, she still doesn't reveal her plan.
@@deusexmachina9275 More to the point, if Holdo had shared her plan, then Finn and Rose never go and the plan isn't leaked. Before Poe even goes through with the mutiny, he begs Holdo to tell him there's a plan. If even it that point, she had told him, it's most likely that they don't get found out because Poe can then just tell Finn to meet them on Krate instead of trying to disable the tracker. All Holdo had to do was trust her people with the truth that there was a plan and many would have been saved.
It’s Crait, Krayt = Krayt Dragon, an animal on Tatooine.
@@Daemonworks just wondering did they ever find that spy before they started to board the transports with the pilots that knew where the destination was since the movie never mentioned a captured spy?
Wait, hold on, if you don't discuss your feelings about the movie how will people know whether or not they should hate you? Your overall personality and the quality of content you produce? That's nowhere near as good a way to determine things as whether or not someone likes a thing!
He already discussed his feelings about the movie in another video about it. Don't ask which one, I don't remember.
(I know, I'm missing the point. I do that sometimes.)
@@theuncalledfor
Oh thank goodness! Now I can find out whether to send death threats to him, as is customary to do to people who disagree with you on the internet.
Don’t be silly human person. You can hate him BECAUSE he doesn’t show an opinion. Meaning he plays both sides. So he deserves anger always.
@@ShockwaveITB
...oh my god, a whole new world has been opened up to me! Fantastical new ways and reasons to be angry at people on the internet!
Just assume he opposes every opinion you have on TLJ and attack him for it. Clearly, if he agreed with you he wouldn't be such a coward and would say so!
(yes, FFS, I am joking)
Luke going to Degobah was not pointless. It was actually quite important to the story as his character arch. Not to mention we're also introduced to Yoda and the Jedi teachings
In the same way Rose and Finn going to Canto Bight was not pointless despite it having a lot of problems. Finn learned to believe in a cause, Rose learned to believe in herself, and it supported the themes of failure, hope, and heroism.
Reagan Bartels The “themes” in the last Jedi are ass
Reagan Bartels I think you’re the only person to believe that
It's pointless because a single line of dialogue would have prevented canto blight. If Chewy knew that they would be betrayed at Could City but didn't tell anyone, then they would be equal.
Reagan Bartels
Nothing that happens on canto matters to anything going forward.
I'm not gonna lie, when I first saw Episode 8, I thought Admiral Thanos Hair was supposed to be a bad guy working as a spy for the First Order or something, I told myself: "Okay, she's making all these stupid decisions because it turns out she's actually working against t- and she just kamikaze'd herself.. so wait she was just an idiot?"
Legit was waiting for the reveal. I was yelling at Poe for not mutinying as soon as he called her a traitor.
Why not tell people you're plan? Why wait for half the people to die before executing the plan? Why not get someone other than a high ranking general to do it?
@@nevergivingup3434 "Bad writing"
... are you kidding? You don't understand the concept of a spy? Or LITERALLY Force mind reading? Seriously dude...
@@nevergivingup3434 So, remember that lightspeed tracking is new tech the Resistance hasn't seen before. The most logical conclusion is that there are traitors on board, communicating with the first order. We never actually get this confirmed or denied. It makes perfect sense for Holdo not to tell literally everyone. Ask your military-serving family if they get to quiz their superior officers on every detail of the plan. *That* wouldn't be realistic.
I wanted Snoke to be two lesbians in an overcoat, and I'm sure everyone else did too. What are you talking about?
#StevenUniverseCrossOver
I remember how one outlying fan theory I heard before The Last Jedi was released was "Snoke is actually a skin suit for a brood of Force-sensitive snakes with a hive mind." Gotta admit, while I certainly wouldn't have bet any money on that theory, it was hardly the craziest one.
@Riprake actually that theory is true, but for Porgs, not snakes
Matthew Mazzetti pfft, that’s silly. Clearly Snoke was a giant marionette being puppeteered by Hux. I mean have you ever seen either of them in the same room? Exactly.
@@surprisedchar2458 then who threw hux around the room?
Wait, you're telling me people are allowed to have opinions, but that their reasoning for said opinions can be flawed and criticized, and if that happens, it isn't a personal attack? I've heard a lot of bullshit in my day but THAT
isn't, it's a valid and reasonable point that 50% of the internet should accept.
What he was talking was a badly formed opinion. It's like saying "I don't like Toy Story because the film has walls". That is very close minded and ignorant as you are nitpicking one thing regardless of everything else the movie does. Also here's something else that you need to know. Opinions can be disagreed on and criticized without said criticism being a personal attack by default. Please take this information I have given you and have a great day.
@@thelegendaryman5504 I'm gonna guess you haven't clicked the read more button, cause I agreed with him.
@@waddlethisway5755 a good troll never refuses to argue anyone even if it isnt called for.
k im obviously joking here because ignoring that last bit would be pretty dumb.
@@thelegendaryman5504 It wasn't as obvious as you seem to think it is but k
I always thought that Luke was Plan B in Han's rescue.
Get Leia inside, she frees Han, Lando walks them out the front door. Chewie is muscle, since someone needs to carry Han.
That plan went to shit, so Luke was Plan B, and he didn't bring his lightsaber with him, cause he wasn't gonna slaughter a room of 200 people.
Exactly!! That’s what I always thought.
i'm pretty sure after the bounty hunter(Leia) snuck in a bomb that made Jabba up security, so luke wouldn't be able to sneak in a weapon at all which is why when Plan B fell through he tries to kill Jabba outright that's why the droids were actually Plan C with a light saber smuggled in R2.
That, and I think Luke was trying to take Yoda's teachings to heart. A Jedi doesn't use the Force to attack, only defend. He wasn't going to go in gun's blazing, because he felt a Jedi wouldn't/shouldn't do that. So he gave Jabba every chance to negotiate peacefully. His offer of C3PO and R2D2 was possibly not even fully a ruse. (Though obviously he suspected it would be rejected, hence the hidden lightsaber.)
Also, on the Snoke issue: It's public knowledge by this point that when Rian Johnson was given the reins there was nothing planned past Force Awakens. So Snoke's actual backstory was... nothing. It's the classic JJ "Mystery box". Provide a question, but no answer. To JJ, the answer doesn't matter. It's the key reason why so many of his stories fizzle out instead of provide a satisfying payoff. So for Rian to go, "that's dumb" and lay bare that the literally unanswered questions from JJ's movie have no real payoff, and really don't need them; "Rey's parents don't matter, they don't define her character," and "Who cares about Snoke, Kylo is more interesting as the main villain anyway," is a reasonable stance to take given that situation.
I mean Rey's parents still do matter? The fact that they're nobodies completely shattered Rey's worldview and she would have to come to terms with the fact she'll never have a proper family. At least that's what I took from it.
Rey's parents being nobodies was actually an interesting idea, especially since so many idiots think force juice MUST be hereditary. Even though the prequels clearly show that to not be the case, because of how the jedi work.
However, Rian Johnson included some things with the intention of pissing people off. He pretty much said that he wanted half the audience to dislike the movie. Looks like that worked as intended.
@@OWnIshiiTrolling the problem here is fans and theory craft always go "every important character must be related with some previous character", like young avengers conspiracy.
Dude. I don’t blame you specifically of making this point, but the whole argument amounts to this. Some dude starts writing a great book. He sets up some mysteries but dies while writing it. Now some new guy tries to finish the book. But for some reason, he just doesn’t finish parts of it. It feels like a hollow and shallow attempt to continue, and is therefore a pretty valid criticism. Also therefore, the weakness of the “subversion” and criticisms do fall on Ryan.
@@lemonplayz4032 that is assuming JJ ever had answers to these setups, which he didn't.
That first scene with Poe giving Hux lip, I was low-key expecting Poe to say “Bingo Bongo” before flying off. TLJ copied the wrong parts of Steven Universe.
Yeah. I thought it was weird when Poe turned pink and his multicolored friends flew off into space. Pretty out of no where.
The snoke overcoat joke got me way harder than i'm willing to admit.
TiBa Weird.
That reveal could have come when the lightsaber went through him and two tiny lesbians popped out.
“And thats the Shaun that point is making.” (5:55)
@Allan Tidgwell Wait, fuck, that's a continuity error
It's called a Spoonerism, I believe.
It's actually at 4:55
I wanted to try this with a sentence in these replies, but there's no good one. :(
8:24 I thought it was very obvious that Luke was showing MERCY to Jabba. He kept saying the entire time that if Jabba released his friends, all would be forgiven, and he'd have to kill Jabba if not. Even when thrown into the rancor pit, he stuck to that. So for the case that Jabba isn't redeemable, he hid the lightsaber in R2 as a failsafe, thinking they'd never check.
I don't get this criticism.
But he also gifted R2D2 to Jabba and in the process made 2 wildly absurd assumptions. 1) Jabba wouldn't have the R2D2 searched and confiscate the lightsaber. 2)They wouldn't put a restraining bolt on R2D2. The first one is more forgivable bc they might not even be aware that R2 has internal compartments or expect him to be carrying a weapon. But the second one makes absolutely no sense. C3PO gets a restraining bolt, why doesn't R2? bc the story needs him to be able to give Luke his lightsaber when he needs it.
Plus if Luke had his lightsaber in the first place, the rancor fight would have been much easier and he probably wouldn't have been taken prisoner in the first place. He could have just killed the rancor, then killed the guards that came to get him afterward and what are they going to do? It's shown in the movie that Luke and his friends can easily take on Jabbas goons, so why wait until you've been put in handcuffs to try in break out?
I get the mercy angle but luke just having his lightsaber on him the whole time wouldn't affect his ability to show mercy to Jabba. Then once Jabba shows he's irredeemable, he could just fight his way out, since that's something that he clearly came prepared to do.
Plus what if instead of dropping Luke into the rancor pit, someone had just shot Luke then and there? wouldn't he have liked to have his Lightsaber on him?
@@theiggliestbuff9925 Suppose that Luke would have acted against that, or he would have force-pulled the restraining bolt off of R2 in time, or taken another weapon, or used force powers without the lightsaber. Rather than dwell on semantics in hypotheticals, let me stress my core point here; Luke was never in a checkmate situation against Jabba, but he's always okay. How do I know this? Because the sarlacc pit situation wasn't his intended endgame - he didn't want to be there. But he rolled with it, and adapted to the situation. And he adapted well, as results showed.
Luke didn't rush to use the saber on the rancor and guards because then the gloves really come off and he has to kill Jabba. Which, again, contradicts his established motive of wanting to offer mercy.
Luke being armed DOES affect his ability to show mercy. It affects how many times he can offer it to Jabba. The time he's about to be executed is Jabba's very last chance. If Luke had clung to his saber, Jabba would have tried to force it off of him, and they'd accelerate to that point. From the POV of someone as merciful yet in control as Luke, that's irresponsible.
"what if someone had just shot Luke?"
Jedi. Trust in Luke's ability. That's what the entire Tatooine scene is meant to establish; just how capable Luke has become.
I don't think the movie ever stated whether R2D2 was fitted with a restraining bolt or not. Seems to me those restraining bolts had the function of keeping droids from being able to attack their masters, not keeping them from helping someone else attack them. So it's possible R2D2 *did* have a restraining bolt while he was serving drinks on Jabba's barge, but that it didn't prevent him from tossing Luke's light saber to him anyway.
As to searching R2D2 for the saber, do we really know most droids of his type had so much storage space? Maybe Luke actually modified him a bit to enable him to store his saber, and Jabba's goons simply didn't go looking for it because they figured the only kinds of contraband droids of his kind could be storing were small chips or data discs for smuggling computer viruses and classified information and the like; and they weren't going to allow him anywhere near any computer systems they had anyway.
@Tribacious Tee
I actually think that’s a great point!
Just like Vader, he wanted to give Jabba every chance he could.
I don’t think he suspected the Sarlac Pitt or the Rancor, but he adapted because he had failsafes in case things went poorly.
Plan A: Leia frees Han then Lando frees Chewie and the droids
Plan B: Leia captured, so Luke comes in to strike the bargain
Plan C: Jabba refuses this chance, so Lando and R2 are the backup and Luke holds everybody’s attention so Leia can break free, Lando can free Chewie and Han, then they all can take out Janna’s goons.
While a pretty redundant plan with quite a few backups, it was all to serve Luke’s new mercy and setup just how far Luke was willing to go to give an evil person a second chance, which is front and center in the climax!
You can say Luke’s plan was dumb, but saying it’s a plot hole is a stretch considering it works with Luke’s character :)
@@theiggliestbuff9925 i would argue that there would probably be more bounty hunters, guards etc in the palace compared to jabbas private barge. So they would basicaly have to fight trough the entirety of jabbas organisation instead of just 1 barge and 3 gliders full of goons
Two lesbians in an overcoat is my new favorite way of describing garnet
@Cian McCabe they're rocks.
@Cian McCabe And technically aren't female.
I was laughing so hard I had to stop the video XD
@@CMan-x7k they have vaginas, so they are women. Non binary is not a real thing, everyone knows this
@@petercross1879 Non-binary is a gender thing, not sex. And as far as it not existing; all it takes is to look past the English language barrier to find plenty of non-binary structures both past and present.
JJ Abrams having a plan for any of the loose ends from Force Awakens is highly unlikely given his approach to ‘mystery boxes’
NihlusKryik the next movie will 100% NOT end with a satisfying conclusion.
@Fleer Ultra I don't see a continuity problem when the film takes place like hours after the last one since at that point the characters really didn't have too much time to explore any backstories ofc Luke and Snokes could have just explained everything but I really don't think it's a good idea to make their only purpose info dumping which I am glad that they had a good personality despite having minimal to no flashback scenes
Just like you know the Emperor he was awsome and Snokes was awesomely killed
Fleer Ultra That's something I hate about ST, you need to get a degree on disney's star wars books to know what happened between the films and to know about the characters.
@@cunxu2697 Luke could have told Rey the reason she was risking her life for total strangers, ya know, people she met a few hours ago, or used it as a reason why he ISN'T going to help friends and family he's known for several decades. "Oh, [A FEW SENTENCES LATER]. And so, I'm not going to do the rest of the movie." -Paraphrasing Luke the Hermit "B-b-b-but...WORDS!" -Rey changing his mind with hope "Well, when you put it like that!" -Luke ignoring backstory that we know to do the movie some more. Boom. End credits and one less problem with the whole thing, overall. Probably.
Did he *have* a plan? Given his history with those "mystery boxes" as you say, I'd agree that the answer is "No." Also, we know he wasn't originally planning to come back to do another Star Wars movie, so really the answer should be upgraded to "Absolutely not!"
Does he have a plan *now?* Well, unless he wanted to be fired before he even started filming, it seems to me he'd kinda have to have one, don't you think? Don't know whether his story will satisfy the majority of the fandom, but it's a near certainty he's got some kind of plan.
Of course, given his history of leaving fans unsatisfied, maybe he's planning a cliff hanger. One of my outlying theories (i.e. one intriguing enough to be plausible, but too unlikely for me to bet any money on it): the story will end with Kylo Ren defeating and/or killing off all his enemies and rivals, taking control of the galaxy, and proclaiming himself Emperor Skywalker. Tune in for the next trilogy to see how the good guys make their comeback! (Tune in whenever Disney starts releasing it, that is; which, just to spite all the crazies howling for the blood of some of the cast and crew who made this trilogy, may not be for a decade or more.)
Actually Luke's plan to rescue Han was many-layered and full of contingencies; it didn't go _exactly_ as planned ("Exactly as planned" would have been "Give Jabba enough money that he gives up Han without a fight", everything else was when that failed). What you see is several layers of his plan failing one after another, then his last resort version worked.
- Having Lando and Leia get in separately was so that whoever could get alone with Han first could break him out, and sending them together would arouse suspicion.
- Having R2-D2 smuggle his lightsaber in was so that if they checked him for weapons beyond a basic blaster they wouldn't find it, and if they confiscated his blaster he could have R2 give him his lightsaber afterward.
- Luke could not, in fact, have just stormed the front door with no problem. In the OT, unlike the prequels and sequels, Jedi were just knights with a couple magic powers like good reflexes, telekinesis, and the ability to sense people. They weren't demigods. Further, storming the front door would give Jabba a chance to just destroy the frozen Han to spite his would-be rescuers.
Exactly, it fell down to the worst case scenario, the last contingency. I would also add that perhaps Lando had infiltrated earlier for the main purpose to provide intelligence so that they could formulate the actual plan.
What if any of them had been killed in the palace, what if Jabba refused the droids outright or accepted the deal and kept them, what if they actually checked R2 (The droid suspiciously sent by a "jedi" with known room to hide things) and found the saber? What if R2 couldn't make it over to fire the saber on time, what if either droid wasn't available while Luke was in the palace or weren't brought on the execution barge at the time? What if Lando got caught, how did he infiltrate in the first place? What if they called Leia's bluff or shot/detained her after she dissabled the detonator? There are *so* many poorly thought-out parts of the plan that could easily be dismantled if other characters were just a tiny bit smarter. I'm with the other guys on this one, it was a kind of flimsy plan.
Seriously. Luke even gets shot by a rando with a blaster in the fight on the barge. He's hardly unstoppable.
Yeah, Luke not just storming Jabba's Palace also has a lot to do with the fact that he's a complete _novice_ and largely self-taught, with the only people in the OT acting as "tutors" to him being an old man desert hermit, an ancient swamp goblin on death's door, his evil robot dad, and a guy who might as well be called Evil McBastard.
To say plotholes don't matter is to say that writers that carefully produce a plot, with as much calculative thoughtful effort as possible, are equal to writers that don't even try.
I think plot holes are only insignificant if they’re unnoticeable on a first watch, like the Pym particles in endgame, contrary to this is the rise of skywalker, like how the quicksand disobeys physics
No, to say plot holes don't matter is to say that themes, characters and powerful moments are more important than plot, and if you gotta choose, it is better to sacrifice plot consistency in favour of the others. Of course you can disagree, but that's the stance that most plot hole dismissers uphold
And of course sometimes plot holes are there without any real motivation, in which case they are just flaws
@@agrainofsun
themes, characters, and powerful moments are actively undermined by large plot holes. These are built on the foundation that is the plot, and so a plot hole is quite literally a hole in the foundation.
How so?
We analyze themes and characters through events in the plot and symbols that are affected and themselves affect the plot.
Take much of modern isekai/'magic high school' fantasy, if you are into anime like me:
The plot of most of it boils down to a battle shounen with even less training arc and character development than usual, where the main character is hilariously overpowered and wins no matter what, often via some bullshit they pull out at the last moment with no explanation and no care for consistency.
We see it as just wish fulfilment, with little to no message and little to no depth in it. Why? Because the ending is set in stone [good guy wins with little to no losses, bad guys lose hard], the events that are supposed to lead up to it don't matter in the face of 11th hour bullshit, and we as readers all know after the first or second arc.
There are no useful themes, no character development, no powerful moments except the high of 'haha you die.' Why? Because of the giant plot hole that is the said 11th hour bullshit.
On the other hand, take better series like atla, black lagoon. Why do the characters, themes, and moments shine? Because it's all steadily developed, layer by layer, few to no plot holes. Aang vs Ozai isn't as well liked as zuko vs azula. Why? Aang vs Ozai has a small plot hole of 'aang gets turnaround because lucky hit to scar activates avatar form,' and that's probably half the reason.
Zuko vs Azula? no such thing, so it hits even harder since you can't say 'oh wow he got so lucky.'
Small plot holes should be patched whenever possible [just out of reader consideration and worldbuilding], but of course some will leak through.
Large plot holes are inexcusable and _will_ weaken the rest of your story, imho.
and plot holes in character development and consistency is only worse. much worse.
dumb point, there are pleanty of writers who have massive plot whole in their work but are still infinitley superior to other authors with holeless stories. one thing that stories can do is to create large and complete worlds, but paper thin worlds can be just as fun or even better depending on the aims that the story seeks to accomplish. jrr tolkien does the former latter but it would be stupid to say that tolkien is a superior writer to mel brooks because brooks stories are more likly to have nonsense plots and even shatter moments the illusion that the story takes place in some real world. plotholes CAN matter, but they do not have to, and often times if a plot whole is fucking with your experience of a story its likely because of failures (/places where the story is not clicking with you) the writers made elsewhere, because there are few cases where the only point of the story is to create full emersion
Hello there
General Kenobi
General Kenobi
Hello
@@vilgot2803
I have failed you Viligot... I have failed you.
Jay Exci's SinsSins You are a bold one.
Lando and Chewbacca never came back because they were hatching a plan to get Han out, Lando became part of Jabbas crew, Leia took on the disguise of Boushh, Chewie pretended to be her prisoner.
Luke hid the Lightsaber inside R2 so that when he inevitably got captured and cuffed, and everyone got put together, his Lightsaber wouldn't be taken off of him and put away where he has no idea where it is. If it's in R2 then he can get it whenever he gives the signal. And NO ONE included C-3P0 in on the plot because they didn't want him blabbing. The less he knows, the more he can sell their "capture".
The Steven Universe example is pretty great for illustrating how it's possible to establish mysteries that are revealed later.
In the other hand I think the video finishes too quickly.
I feel like some of the arguments saying "the OT did it as well" kind of feel like they had false equivalence, because in Empire, Vader is actively focused on capturing Han, Leia, Chewie and the Droids in order to lure Luke into a trap, so our heroes trying to evade them only to get captured in Bespin thanks to Bobba Fett tracking them down feels like it was a possible scenario; the Canto Bight bit feels like they only failed because of bad setups subverting our expectations like how parking in a beach gets you arrested when just as you find your objective, getting caught by New Order Troops because a Droid suspected a trash bin of being a spy, and the Code Breaker betraying you and jeopardizing your plan because you decided to have an open comm link with the guy with the questionable sense of loyalty in the same room when you were suppossed to get one that was more trustworthy, and that's without considering that the New Order could have scanned the location of the "cloaked" ships if they thought the Radus might have deployed escape pods. Empire's failure is more simple and logical that it happened; Last Jedi's has a complex setup and different payoffs happening at the same time that it makes you wonder why did people even do certain things in the first place if the simplest solution was to clear up a misunderstanding and have Poe completely avoid having to send Finn and Rose to Canto Bight in the first place. As for Return's issue, I think with 3PO is that maybe he would have blown their cover, since the dude's a chatterbox, Luke wanted to solve things without getting violent unless forced to, and why the heck is Chewie with Bosh Leia when it was established that Lando and Chewie were the ones together is probably the one that has me stumped...makes no sense to have Lando not be the one to free Han if he was inside. (Also, the plan over Endor could have been jeopardized either because Luke was inside of the Imperial Transport, or he might as well saved it for a bit because the codes used by the ship were old and Vader became suspicious, but sensing Luke, he let them pass, and that's not counting that Luke and 3PO got the Ewoks on their side, which apparently stayed hidden from Imperial scans unless they found them to be no threat at all at the time of setting up a base. Like Return may have plotholes, but excuses in universe exist as to why they happened, and they aren't exactly overly complex; everything else in TLJ ends up falling apart when you look back at what came before and think of it with the new information at hand, like why would Holdo risk not teling Poe the plan when a lot of people trust him and he turns around once he knows what the plan is? Or how Poe screwed up in the Dreadnaught assault when later it's revealed that the New Order tracked them down through Hyperspace, and leaving it alive would have been a bigger detriment to the Radus.)
Sorry for the long text; just felt like the main issue here was how one group of plotholes don't exactly match up with another. I think you did well breaking this down.
Small issue it's boba not bobba
Saying "this problem was in the ot" is not a defence of the last Jedi it's a criticism of the ot. Why can't people figure that out?
Also if the OT also has that problem that's a problem with the OT as well, and the SW writers haven't analyzed the movies and improved on it.
"And that's the Shaun that point is making here" being left in is fantastic. I love you for that.
Honestly I really liked The Last Jedi but I never try to “defend” it. If people don’t like it then I won’t be able to change their minds, but I am able to express why I do enjoy it myself.
Same but some people will look on you or insult you just for liking it because in their minds no body in their right mind would like this movie (and the good old I see my opinion as fact and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong)
Same. The only way I’m coming after someone for their opinion on a movie is if they think it’s okay to escalate things to harassment. In other words, I’ll defend people, not product
You like thing I don't, you must be an idiot
You hate something I like, you must be an idiot
That's basically the whole thought process of fanboys/girls
Neither did Shaun...the title of his video is specifically "Why I love the Last Jedi" and the kind of criticism he is calling out is specifically the points which he feels are more born out of bigotry. The part which is taken apart here is about them making a big deal out of flaws which are usually not considered that much of a deal breaker regarding earlier Star Wars movies. He is basically launching a pre-defence towards those who would accuse him of being a SJW for liking the movie.
Well, the problem to me is that the TLJ haters pretend that fans who liked the movie do not exist, proclaim themselfes to be the only fanbase that matters a wage some kind of cruisade against the people who are currently making the movie, which might end up derailing the entire production (at least, if they turn out to be right about that).
So, yeah, these haters bum me out a little.
An overpowered character isn't necessarily an uncompelling character, though.
It's really about justification. People accept Superman as an overpowered character, because he's an alien raised on earth and most of his adventures involve him fighting other over powered aliens trying to attack the earth. People accept Goku as an overpowered Dragonball character because he's, well, just a new form of Superman. People accept Wonder Woman as an overpowered character because she's a mystical Amazon warrior with decades worth of training.
As for Rey, she has amazing force powers and can do things only experienced force-users can do after years of training because...
Uhm....
Yeah. Problem with her character found.
There is something called "Flat character arcs". Opposed to characters that go from "bad" to "good" or vice versa (Positive and negative character arcs).
These "flat" characters don't grow. But they influence other characters around them to grow: Goku, Saitama, Paddington, Obi-wan, etc.
That's how you write an overpowered character that is likable, and that is why most modern Superman stories are garbage.
Just look at Saitama: the most OP character ever written. What makes him compelling is that, for all his strength, even he can't escape struggling to pay for rent and food, the struggle to be recognized for his achievements, and most importantly: the sheer boredom of there no longer being any challenge. His sheer power gives him crippling depression.
@@DonVigaDeFierro I'd argue that Saitama does learn and grow. His character arc just has nothing to do with gaining or losing strength. It's subtle, but the whole reason he joined the Hero Association was to get recognized for his accomplishments, and yet, at the end of the Deep Sea King arc, he chooses to give the credit to the other heroes so that they don't lose the public's respect even though they gave their all to stop the Deep Sea King.
@@joshuarichardson6529 It's not even about justification is about simple consistency and basic literary handling.
Anakin, a literal child birthed of the force, the Chosen One, the force nearly incarnated, the possibly strongest Force User in history if he hadn't gone down the wrong path and been so horribly mutilated, did nothing better than having good reflexes for flying as a kid. He required years, training, guidance, and then outright experience in a massive, ongoing war that lasted years to reach the top echelon of power among the Jedi of his time. And through all this effort, he still faltered or got injured, or lost. And this power didn't mend all of the issues in his life.
Rey, a GRAND daughter of Emperor Palpatine, the man that would have been lesser than Anakin if he had actually grown to his full potential, bests a Sith that has trained under 2 massively powerful and experienced masters since he was young, for decades. This man is of Anakin's own lineage, so grandson of someone even more potentially powerful than Palpatine, trained diligently and thoroughly in the use of a lightsaber, besting a soldier with quantitatively more and qualitatively better training than anything Rey has ever had in her whole life and having such force potential that he scared Luke *"I-have-enough-mercy-for-even-the-galactic-genocider-and-boogeyman-extraordinary-Darth-Vader"* Skywalker into faltering for a moment in fear and seriously consider trying to kill him in case he fell to the dark side... gets bested by a fucking unknown girl, that knows nothing of the force, has had no training, has had no guidance, has had no learning experiences, in lightsaber combat that he has trained in for decades under massively skilled tutors while all she has had is a staff to _self-teach_ herself some self-defense for maybe a decade.
Not only does Rey bend over backwards the most basic rules of how Force power and skill is gained and the time required, even by a super genius spawned by the Force itself, not only does she possess a massive array of skills she has absolutely no reason to possess and is better at them all than people that had invested decades, or most of their lives, in these skills, all of this shit serves no fucking narrative purpose. Kylo had advantages and preparations miles and miles *_wider and bigger_* than anything Rey could even imagine, and still, he loses in their first battle because he's merely injured. Where's the tension? Where's the rivalry? What the fuck is in her way? What the fuck can't she accomplish? This is not a rom-com or a slice of life, so why are you so callously killing every single potential stake that would be integral for your plot to exist and work in even the most basic surface level?
And that is why Rey's "overpoweredness" makes no sense, is literal trash, absolutely worthless, undeserved and boring as hell.
I would like to point out that the problem with the whole sidemission isn't that it was a failure. The problem is that it was completely pointless. The only two things it accomplished was getting Captain Phasma killed and keeping Finn and Rose out of the story on the ship for Poe's mutiny to occur, both of which could have easily been accomplished without that whole sideplot.
As to the Luke's lightsaber "plothole" in RotJ... He had no way of knowing that he could 100% get into the palace without being searched and having any weapons confiscated.
I think the other issue with why snoke's backstory wasn't explained in a satisfying manner is because the whole first order wasn't explained in a satisfying manner and its because of the OT. In the original trilogy the story starts in medias res with an empire and a rebellion. This state of things is very easy to infer from the audience why things are a happening. A long established authoritarian empire is undergoing a rebellion. As a result, we as the audience can infer that the emperor himself is A. a figure that holds enormous power over this empire and B. that he must be a powerful force user because Vader is his personal right hand man. These elements provide enough backstory for the emperor because we didn't really need to know more then that. We as the audience could assume that the emperor of a galactic empire in a universe with force powers would naturally be a powerful force user. The issue comes when we have Snoke who is given the exact same treatment but because the first order hasn't been well established (are they remnants of the empire? a revival copycat movement? what do they actually control? why do they need their own underground rebel group to fight them if the first order is already a fringe faction? What happened between the OT and the Disney films?) that makes Snoke's powers and position of authority need more of an explanation then the emperor. In addition there are questions that needed answered as a result of the emperors presence in the OT. (Who trained Snoke? was it palatine? when did palatine have time to train an additional apprentice to Vader? Was it after he supposedly died? Why does the first order follow him? Was it because of a connection to palpatine or is Snoke his own cult of personality that was taking advantage of the first order?) These questions got answered in the third film but only after the character had been literally and metaphorically assassinated. He's a force using clone that Palpatine(?) made as a puppet so he could run the first order in the shadows. By then the character was useless to the story and so the backstory just kinda seemed flat and we still had so many unanswered questions about both Palpatine and the first order that the explanation still didn't make sense overall.
I love how sane and and quiet when talking about these movies
And that's how everyone should be not radically angry or defendant
I would love it so much if the world was like that, but denial hits hard for people, and then it's the downward spiral.
As far as I can tell, it was always meant to be a mystery why Rey was so unusually skilled in the Force for a complete beginner. They finally paid off that mystery in Rise of Skywalker (she's part of a Force Diad with Ben and her picking up his skills during that two-way mind-link in The Force Awakens was hinting at that).
Where they screwed up IMO is that they failed to acknowledge *in the films* that this was unusual so the audience was left wondering if they'd just screwed up this aspect. (An assumption that many people immediately leapt to and has dogged them ever since).
In TLJ Luke does mention it and says hes wary, and its mentioned in the Force Awakens how impressive her abilities are.
@@alexturlais8558 The first one is barley a hint because it can be interpreted in so many ways and its never really brought up again, and the second one isn't even a hint it's just the film acknowledging that Rey is overpovered.
Since the whole Force Diad thing came out of nowhere, it would have helped to have some kind of hint in the first movie that that was even a thing. Because we had 6 movies by that point and never was such a thing mentioned. Nor was Force Skype, Force Kinda Teleportation, Force Ghost Lightning (could have been handy at many, many times), or Force Safe Distance Hologram-Oh-Wait-No-It-Kills-You-Anyway-Somehow.
@@Swiftbow Eh, there's a huge number of possible Force powers and they generally get introduced at the point they're relevant. I don't think the films gave us any idea that Force Lightning was a thing before the Emperor suddenly started using it in Return of the Jedi, for example. Or that Luke could use Force-sensing to accurately target a missile. etc.
@@irrevenant8724 That's true, and I would probably have been more charitable towards that sort of thing if the movie hadn't already annoyed me to no end.
The thing with Luke's seemingly strange plan in Return of the Jedi is that once it's done, it's done. They don't spend the rest of the movie talking about it ad nauseum. Consider Empire Strikes Back. The tactics used by both sides in the opening battle were..… not very well thought out. It was just what looked cool. But when that battle was done, it was done. Leia didn't spend the rest of the movie getting lectured about how bad she was for disagreeing with Luke's genius strategy of flying right at the AT-ATs head on, nor is she forced to acknowledge at the end that it was indeed a brilliant strategy and she screwed up by disagreeing. What I have just described is what Poe went through in Last Jedi.
Dear diary:
Today I saw a strange man standing in the street, examining a dog turd he was holding in his hand. He was constantly turning it around; observing it from all angles as if trying to understand it. Then i went home where it was safe. And where there were sedatives.
Sounds like you met Francis York Morgan.
I thought you were going to make a joke about him holding a star wars sequel...
Slightly dissipointed.
Kylo: thank u grandfather spinning is a good trick
I honestly don’t mind Rey being overpowered. The movies treat her as being a unique case. It acknowledges that she shouldn’t be this powerful, yet she is. It’s part of the mystery of the character. There are still things we don’t know about her. There could be some type of Darth Revan situation with her or something.
If the film was saying “yeah, she learned the force quickly and that’s just something that people do” then I wouldn’t be happy with it. But Luke is fucking shocked at what she can do with no training. The movie is telling us there is something very special about Rey and her unique natural abilities.
So it depends on the argument against Rey. If it’s “Rey shouldn’t be this powerful because other people haven’t done what shes doing” then I’m not sure that’s totally valid. But if the argument is “I know she’s supposed to be a super unique case and there is something very special about her abilities, I just don’t like that” then I understand. I disagree, but I do understand.
I just stick by "I thought it was okay" because that's it. Don't feel the need to defend it since I can understand alot of the criticism.
So it's a plot hole to believe that luke couldn't just slaughter his his way through Jabba's Place by himself without 1. dying, 2. getting one of his friends killed, or 3. Falling to the Dark side?
For me, Holdo's plan isn't the problem. Holdo not telling Poe the plan isn't the problem. Holdo not telling Poe there IS a plan is the problem. That would be the same as saying to Chewy "we may or may not have a plan to rescue you and Han, but why don't you let Leia lead you in like you've been captured anyway?"
Great video!
Leia and Han and their journey on Bespin led to a couple of things:
- they were used as pawns in Vader's pursuit of Luke, and Vader succeeded
- their failures brought Leia to realize that she was in love with Han, a major personal turning point for her, and the essence of her arc in this film!
- Leia's troubles helped Luke make important decisions, face his fears, learn profound truths, experience struggle, learn, and grow.
I'm baffled by the defenders of TLJ. Pointing out flaws in movie X doesn't prove that movie Y, which also contained those problems, is flawless. None of their arguments are logical and defendable. It seems liked thay they simply liked TLJ, or were bribed, and are now looking for any reason available to justify their original emotional position.
I modertely liked TFA when it came out, but realize now through careful review of the critics that it was a pretty flawed film. I can admit that I learned something and changed my position.
I want to call those TLJ defenders "TLJ apologists".
In RoTJ, I think Luke was trying to find a "peaceful" and "defensive" means to deal with Jabba instead of simply aggression against them. Hatred and Aggression lead to the Dark Side, so Luke was putting himself into the "victim" or "defensive" role so that the Light Side of the force could be used. That's my explanation for the plan to free Solo, although I do not think the makers of the movie were thinking this through. They just wanted a wacky antic-ridden sequence.
so, it's not ryan's fault about last jedi and it's not jj's fault. It was disney's fault for not making a plan for the trilogy. Marvel planned the mcu to lead to infinity war, and made sure the directors they hired follow the plan. but disney (and yes i know both of marvel and star wars are under disney) let their directors a free hand and vision, that in stand alone films is a great thing, but if you plans a trilogy, you may want to make sure the theme, character arcs and storylines continue on the path they started instead of destroying and start over
I liked young Anakin, but I was seven years old at the time :p
I cannot get used to Shaun's voice not sped up, because I watched TL;DR respond to him as a "first contact" and so my first experience of the voice was speedy
Commenting on a four year old video...
My first thoughts when I saw the Save Han Plan in Return of the Jedi were, that there were actually 3 totally separate plans. Lando made his own plan, not telling anyone, Leia made her own plan, shared only with Chewbacca, and Luke had his own plan. Not taking his lightsabre in himself seemed odd, but perhaps he hoped to get Han out through non-violent means, and having the light sabre on him would have distrupted that. The three separate plans mixed together and gave us what we got.
To justify it in my mind, I decided they didn't tell each other their plans because the plans were risky, and they didn't want to imperil others with their outlandish plans. They were willing only to risk themselves, not others.
3:56 'The Finn and Rose subplot is pointless to the overall story' is a very polite way to put it. That subplot does not belong in the movie whatsoever. I'm guessing aesthetically they were going for something that resembles Jabba's Palace, but even then it feels out of place.
The subplot has basically nothing to do with the main characters or the actual story. The characters don't change and learn nothing (unless you want to count Finn learning about child slavery by a suicidal authoritarian girl, while he himself was actually a child slave). They opened the cages of some animals to make Rose feel better about herself (those animals would be either killed or recaptured soon after), and that is about it. They make an interesting point about weapon trading and manufacturing but they don't act upon it at all.
The whole subplot sprouts from Holdo not taking her position or the looming threat of death seriously, which might be the worst scene in the worst film trilogy to date.
Even if you want to allocate value to the Codebreaker versus Rose shoulder angel plot device for Finns decision to join the rebellion it didn't need all those scenes, and wasnt even done effectively in the end.. and it doesn't even matter because Phasma is weaker than the average stormtrooper, and Finn tries to sacrifice himself heroically but Rose doesn't allow him to save anyone because she forgot her character establishment and arc, so she rams his vehicle at 300 mph and they both die unheroically unceremoniously while all their friends get brutally murdered. Oh no wait people don't die unless you ram them with lightspeed..
2:45 Well, the night mother says that darkness rises when silence dies....
He is the listener.
This is my take on it, but I always liked that all this huge galactic conflict, the 3 movies culminated; found it's conclusion in Luke sparing his fathers life and standing his ground unarmed. Denying the ultmate villain the joy, subverting his expectation (see this Rian Johnson). Not overpowering them or being the most awesome special jedi. It showed that even normal people could step up and do the sacrifice for the people they love, for their family, even if it meant death. This for me is the legacy of Star Wars.
You could replace the setting and the starships with WW2 or any other conflict and it would still work.
Interesting that Shaun's original video is unlisted now. Although I suspect that was more to do with what happened with TROS than this valid criticism from a fellow youtuber.
I just want to let you know that the "I don't think JJ Abrams wanted Snoke to be two lesbians in an overcoat" line made me laugh so hard that I choked in my own spit.
I love your show.
That said, disagreements on your last point (minor).
Blame for the Snoke thing falls squarely on Rian Johnson's shoulders.
When I was a wee lad, me and my friends would play a game (the name of which escapes me at this moment).
It involved one of us telling a story which s/he would not finish. The next person would continue the story, then the next, and so on.
You could continue the story in whatever direction you wanted, but it needed to retain the same characters, plot threads, etc.
If, say, the third storyteller (Rian) chose to give Sherlock Holmes the ability to fly, fine.
Ridiculous, but fine.
However, you would not blame the second storyteller (let's call him J J) simply because he introduced Sherlock and his need to reach some high place in chapter two.
You see, J J has setup a situation, but Rian has introduced the foolishness that followed simply because his imagination is childlike and stupid.
I also loved 'Thanos hair'.
I can't agree with that. When someone completely drops the ball as badly as JJ did in TROS I mean he HIRED the guy who wrote Batman V Superman! I don't care where your friend left the story, if your part sucks... that's on you. There were a million ways JJ could have taken it without it being the hot mess that it was.
@Dan Nguyen www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they Look at description 3 and it's various forms. Maybe you should educate yourself before speaking.
Dan Nguyen they is --> they are
@@GamingWolfGod Personally, I am never going to accept first person 'they' as an innovation in the English language. This isn't a reflection of political views, if somebody chooses to identify as non-binary, that is their decision. (Although, I would hope that gender norms become flexible enough to minimise the need for people to reject them to feel true to themselves)
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My issue is that it introduces a _lot_ of ambiguity to the English language. This isn't just a matter of vocabulary, but core grammar.
Commonly, 'they' is not only a plural pronoun, but is also used when the gender or identity of the person in question is as of yet unknown/undecided. For example, 'I'm going to get a plumber to come next week, hopefully, they can fix the toilet'.
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By using they as a first person pronoun for a known person, you create all kinds of confusing situations - you might not know whether the speaker is talking about a single individual or multiple, or whether the individual the speaker is referring to is known, or unknown. You might think this is a hypothetical problem, but it really isn't, I've read a few stories featuring characters referred to with 'they' pronouns, and it gets confusing very quickly. You have to frequently re-read paragraphs to guess who exactly the author was referring to from context. (For example, did just the non-binary character speak/do something, or did multiple characters at the same time? In both cases, you'd use 'they', alternatively, do you _know_ who the boss of that company is and are using 'they' because you are aware of their gender identity, or are you using 'they' because you don't know who is and/or their gender identity?)
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Dictionaries in English aren't authorities exactly, they seek to document the ways words in English are used. This is particularly true for emerging linguistic conventions, like the first-person 'they'. Personally, I suspect first-person 'they' will never fully catch on, both because non-binary people make up less than 1% of the population and also because of the aforementioned ambiguity issues.
Merry Machiavelli they has been a singular pronoun for over 400 years, you even used it in your comment:
“If somebody chooses to identify as non-binary, that is *their* decision”
The fact it can be ambiguous is a weak argument because so many things in the English language, especially with pronouns, is ambiguous: we can be inclusive or exclusive, you can be very ambiguous and is plural (you are, this stems from the fact that you was plural, equivalent to vous in French, and thou was singular, equivalent to tu in French)
The fact that they can be someone of ambiguous gender is kind of the point why non-binary people use they. No one should assume someone is non-binary from the pronoun they until it’s specified. The issues with writers not knowing how to effectively use they/them pronouns while making the text easy to understand is a valid criticism because a lot of people are shitty at writing and don’t know how to handle pronouns effectively: if something is difficult to understand, that’s the fault of the writer, not of the vernacular or language. I do understand your point of view, the only real alternative would be neopronouns like ze/zir and stuff like that, but I think that would have a harder time making its way into English than they/them.
I was hoping that Snoke was going to be two entities in an overcoat, except one of them was going to have the sole purpose of shooting off a big sky beam, and the other was going to grow into a huge soulless CGI monster. Truly would have been a perfect end 🥲
Lmao somehow I knew when you started talking about the Tatooine sequence in RotJ that Cosmonaut's video would be brought up
I feel like it probably should have been mentioned that Shaun made his video in response to someone who was claiming that these issues were unique to Rey, due to her being a female character written by woke extremists. Or something like that. So like, Shaun's arguments aren't that these things aren't problems and the movie is great. They're more like, "It's stupid to say that these are problems with Rey, specifically, and not with the franchise in a broader sense".
I find that C-3PO would have been one of the worst characters to tell the plan.
something many people seem to forget about young anakin and his "overpowered" actions, most of those actions are by accident. He does very little impressive stuff in that film intentionally. The OP thing he does intentionally is the pod racing. Everything in his space adventure is both by accident and with the help of R2D2. He presses the wrong buttons like 5 times
My problem with Snoke in TFA isn't even that he has no backstory. It's that the film doesn't even seem to notice he should have one.
The Empire subplots are not pointless at all. Han and Leia are trying to hide from the Empire. I’m doing so, they get captured and used as bait so that Luke can go to Vader. Then Han gets frozen which is a plot point for the next movie.
Luke’s subplot is him trying to Train to be a Jedi. His training wasn’t wasted. He held his own against Vader (even though Vader was toying with him). Luke then leaves, showing he isn’t quite ready, and he isn’t a full Jedi
I don't think it's fair to blame TFA for not explaining Snoke entirely. To go with a different big overarching villain, imagine if Thanos had been killed off in Guardians of the Galaxy. He showed up at the end of the Avengers and was clearly important, but then oopsie doopsie he's dead now. We wouldn't know who he was, why he was who he was, what his plans were, or anything like that. Just some vague "He had a plan, maybe, but who cares look at this other guy!". I'm not saying that Snoke needed a backstory IN epsidoe eight, to be clear. Heck, I think even something vague like "The Sith aren't the only masters of the dark side" or "Child, I am older than the empire and the republic combined" would have done a lot. He doesn't need to sit everyone down and explain how he grew up in the country but his dad wasn't a fan of his music so he went to the big city and learned how to play the guitar or some nonsense like that, but just something to show that "Hey this character that casts question as to whether or not Anakin managed to put the force into balance has an explanation, we're just not gonna show it yet."
Also why the heck did they kill Phasma off after giving her five minutes of screentime she got TWO BOOKS TO EXPLAIN WHO SHE WAS AND THEY WASTED IT WHY-
@Jay Exci Shadows of the Empire explained the whole break Han out plan.... Lando went in first to get intel and to get set up and was working with Leia... Leia had her whole Chewbacca decoy to free Han from Carbonite and to get chewie and escape... and ultimately this is all occuring because no one believes Luke Skywalker is a jedi knight and wants to go with his plan... this is actually referenced in ROTJ when Chewie growls the plan to Han in the cell.
Chewbacca growls (Im inferring what i believe chewbacca said.) = Luke has a plan to save us and get me my mother fucking medal!
Han Solo "Luke, Luke is crazy. He can't take care of himself much less rescue anybody!
Chewbacca growls (inference) = Luke is a jedi knight he can get me my fucking medal!
Han Solo "A... A jedi knight!!? I'm outta of it for a little while everybody gets delusions of grandeur."
ua-cam.com/video/zyVDASOhC7o/v-deo.html
During the scene Chewbacca refers to teh plans in shadow of the empire.. the one everyone ignores because it sounds crazy. No one believes Luke is a fucking jedi! No one saw him fight vader in Empire, no one but R2 met Yoda, and in movies he's shown zero of his powers to his compatriots. It's understandable why he best friend is like "delusions of grandeur". At this point luke has only made a "lucky" shot on the first death star, and is a great pilot, but so are many people in the rebellion. So in Shadows when Luke explains he'll send R2 and C3PO in to request a fair trade for Han but that Jabba will refuse and keep the droids as the gift he was offered it'll place them inside. Leia will bring in Chewie to protect Han because of the carbonite symptoms.. remember leia knew them and explained them to han as he woke up.. "Your eye sight will return in time"... like that was part of a bigger plan.. When they get captured Leia warns almost like its a plan "you're making a mistake jabba. We have powerful friends you're going to regret this." Almost like her and everybody are acting on a coordinate plan under jabba's nose. HAn is out of carbonite, and has chewie to tell him the plan and protect him while he's blind, and jabba being jabba of course throws princess leia in her fabled bikinni to make her his love slave... ua-cam.com/users/results?search_query=rotj+we+have+powerful+friends
Suddenly Luke comes in... He mind tricks the twilek like he knows he can.. but his powers fail to work on Jabba because it don't work on hutts... but immediately as if it didn't matter that the mind trick didn't work Luke threaten this intergalactic gangster in his own palace... "Never the less, I am taking Captain Solo and the wookie." Its almost like Luke knows he's a jedi and that his droid has his lightsaber cause he put it in there which he would know and is irrelevant to the veiwer... because the actor is protraying confidence that he knows something bigger is going on.. as if he is really in control of this situation despite being in Jabba palace with no light saber and weapons surrounded by Jabba's guards. The coup d'grace to me is when very nonchalant.. almost Obiwan eque states "You can profit from this or die, but i warn you not to underestimate my power." This line is delieved in a way like Luke is expecting, perhaps even relying on Jabba underestimating powers.. hey his best friend thinks he has delusions of grandeur. ua-cam.com/video/9357t5Q79kg/v-deo.html
it is clear Luke is provoking Jabba to kill him. Almost like Luke needs Jabba to leave his palace of invincbility where it's easier to kill him.. which he does do when he executes people. Right as Jabba is ordering their execution Luke says "This is the last mistake you'll ever make." I can't find a recording online that backs it up.. but i assure you it is there in the movie. We than move to execution. On the way there Luke says to Han "Just stick close to Chewie and Lando. I've taken care of everything." This is revelatory that Luke isn't neither worried and feels he 000has complete and utter control of the situation.
ua-cam.com/video/nAnkFVaKnec/v-deo.html
Luke plan was simple. He relied on one thing and one thing only. Being a jedi. He offered peace like 3 times. Once with the droid gift, once himself, and again finally he states before the execution starts and things can't be undone... "This is your last chance Jabba... Free us or die!" ua-cam.com/video/nAnkFVaKnec/v-deo.html
All Luke needs for this entire plan to succeed is the these three things he is in complete control of. A lightsaber delivered via driod to fight with, time spent in training montage on dagobah to train his force powers, and foreknowledge that Jabba the hutt executes people in the tattooine desert... information that is likely common knowledge and used as a way to keep people in line if you say grew up on Tattooine.. Which luke even tells Han on the ride to the execution. "You know I grew up here right?" It's almost like Luke Skywalker possessed the jedi skills, general tattooine knowledge, and a astromech capable of following basic instructions like "Hey when they go to execute me shoot this lightsaber out of your head so i can catch ok R2". How any one can say Luke's plan makes no sense and that hte beginning of ROTJ makes no sense. Literally the only person who doesn't know that Luke has a plan is C3PO who literally is never told the plan.. which is a repeating star wars joke. How is this even a thing? IT shown that everyone knew there was a plan. Han outright mocked it.. and the plan was simple... give driod with lightsaber, piss off gangster until he kills you in the middle of the desert where he likes to kill people, and use jedi powers + lightsaber to kill Gangster, all his people, and escape.
Something you don’t address in your section regarding Snoke’s backstory is the possibility that they planned to kill him all along.
Like all the set up he got in TFA was intentional misdirection that made the surprise of his death hit even harder than it already did.
Christian Marroquin The “surprise” being a shitty one that made the movie even worse.
You literally just made a “it subverted expectations therefore good” argument.
The difference with Return of Jedi is that the Jabba’s Palace sequence is completely divorced from the rest of the plot. There’s almost nothing that happens during the sequence that affects the rest of the film. Holdo’s plan IS the plot to The Last Jedi, or at least a massive part of it.
1:46 - old video by now I know, but rewatching this because it came up when I was looking for something else. Anyway, the framing of the first argument is very dishonest. Yes, I know, he adds a very quick disclaimer that he ignores most of the things Shaun mentioned, but Jay then exclusively focuses on Anarkin as the counter argument and then ending by saying the argument depends on the person you're arguing with liking Anarkin even though the argument only had Anarkin as one of the examples. And the counter isn't great either. It kind of seems to misunderstand what Shaun was saying, that this is a universe where powerful characters exists because the plot says so (i.e. the force willed it), so it would be silly to argue that Rey couldn't be powerful as well. Whatever. Not important.
Rian Johnson did not even do anything "meaningful".
He just lazily destroyed every potential plot point for the entire trilogy, and straight up copied scenes from Empire.
YES. its like he hated the previous film and just wanted to use the characters in his own story
Or he loved the story and improved it.
@@sinistar99 well, half the Fandom disagrees with his story, so not an improvement.
@@AJ69238 Well, "half the fandom" is wrong.. So an improvement.
also is it really "half" or just a loud minority? The movie made almost 2 billion dollars. When I went to see it again 4 months after its release expecting an almost empty theater by that time... it was packed and people clapped and cheered at parts. The "UA-camarati" peanut gallery doesn't represent as much of the "fandom" as it thinks it does.
@@sinistar99 box office does not determine how good a movie is. The audience box office rating does. And it's abysmal
Plot holes are only as significant as the weight put on them in the story.
Luke's plan to rescue Han Solo isn't a significant one because fixing the plot hole wouldn't adjust the course of the story in any way, aside from *maybe* not having the scene on Jabba's Barge. Holdo's plan to keep everyone alive is significant because it directly affects the actions taken by several other characters and the course of the story as a whole. If you fixed Holdo's plan and made her actions consistent with her stated motivations, you put the entire line of cause-and-effect that is the movie's plot in jeopardy. Even worse still, other characters are meant to have moments of growth and development based on what is effectively a lie the story is trying to tell you is true.
God I HATE the "X bad thing of a longruning franchise was also a problem in an older scene/episode/series of the franchise" argument. Trek is more my thing, but every single time I hear it I just go "Yes, and I hated it just as much then as I do now."
Like, what kind of argument are you even making? At the best case the person who doesn't like the thing is a hypocrite (which is still great to point out if it's true) and the bad thing still exists, or you think X thing is truly bad but that's completely and totally acceptable because this isn't the first time.
Not to mention this is usually said in an incredibly pompous and arrogant way. The argument itself assumes that whoever doesn't like X thing at best forgot about that time in the past and at worst is selectively forgetting it, or that they don't like the new instance of X thing purely because it's in "the new one" and therefore bad. This is offten an interesting thing to bring up and absolutely can be done in a civilized way, but it so often isn't done in that context or with that respect
Two things. One, I don't entirely disagree with the notion that Snoke never getting a backstory reveal is the fault of both films, but let's be honest, it's the fault of Force Awakens WAY more than Last Jedi. If anybody still actually believes that J.J. Abrams EVER has an answer when he writes one of his fucking "mystery boxes" into a movie, I don't think you've been paying attention. His writing style is to constantly hint at greater things to come that he can never possibly deliver on, which is usually why he hands all that stuff off to someone else to figure out. Sometimes they come up with some pretty cool answers (like in Fringe), and sometimes they come up with bullshit (like in Lost).
Maybe Rian Johnson and whoever else was involved with crafting the story of Last Jedi (which I guarantee you were many of the same producers that helped Abrams craft Force Awaken's story) should have tried to come up with something more satisfying, but honestly, I think they made the best possible decision they could with the cards they'd been dealt. Truthfully, I was all ready for Snoke to have some really boring origin that tied back to some previous character somehow... and I can't tell you how much I wasn't looking forward to that. Saying that he just doesn't matter and killing him off was supremely more interesting than any other answer they could have come up with, in my opinion.
Second, I do find it weird that when you say that Rey displays abilities that more experience Force users wield that you chose to show a shot of Luke Skywalker at the beginning of Episode V. You know, when basically the only lesson he's ever had in the Force is Obi-Wan doing the blast shield laser ball exercise and then telling Luke to "use his feelings" to know when to fire shots at the Death Star. To suggest that Luke is some kind of experienced Force user at the beginning of Empire is pretty not true. Truthfully, Rey was only slightly less experienced by the end of Force Awakens than Luke was at that point, and it's also worth pointing out that it was that scene in Empire that first introduced us to that power at all. And they chose to do so with a fairly inexperienced Force user. I think there's an argument to be made about Rey being a little overpowered, but this isn't an example of it.
You would have a point, but we have reason to believe that Rian had the answers cause JJ actually did plan answers for his questions but he decided to ignore it and do his own thing, but this information is not really concrete
It's really pleasant to watch a video about The Last Jedi without it being incredibly partisan or exhausting to watch. Keep up the good work Jay.
Shaun: "So people are saying The Last Jedi 'ruined Star Wars'... Here are some things in the movie that people say have ruined the franchise. Similar examples of these 'problems' exist in the originals, too. How can these problems have ruined the series if they were there all along?"
Jay Exci: "The old films having problems doesn't excuse the new films having similar problems"
Bad video, I hope you're very ashamed.
MauLer has a series of multi-hour long videos worth of plot issues in the sequel trilogy. I'm still waiting for someone to be able to do the same for the OGs if they were supposedly just as problematic.
Oh, and Jay actually ellaborated that people pointing out flaws in the sequels generally have different context in the way they criticize them (such as the severity of said plot holes), so you're misquoting him a bit.
Was your goal to create an interaction in which Shaun wins?
I hate when somebody tries to tell you how to feel about something everyone feels different about something
And Snoke even has a ring made of Obsidian, so Steven Universe is 100% Star Wars cannon.
Gem Empire vs Galactic Empire who would win
@@acsulag8002 the empire proabably, star wars characters out scale Steven universe characters
I really enjoyed the last jedi and I understand and recognize the movie's flaws, but sometimes I feel like both sides of the argument are kind of... overexaggerated. On one hand, you have people blindly claiming that anyone and everyone who criticizes the movie is just nitpicking and a "hater". On the other hand, you've got people claiming that this movie is a giant steaming pile of dogshit that doesn't deserve any kind of praise, even though it had some pretty good aspects. I also do get slightly annoyed when people say the entire movie is bad, and just spending the entire argument pointing out plot holes (though this is just a pet peeve of mine). Where was I going with this.... Oh right I wish more people would take a more similar approach to you. You seem like if you hated the movie, you're willing to give credit where credit is due, and if you liked the movie you would recognize the flaws instead of blindly ignoring them. It's a more honest and transparent way of criticism that I wish was more common. Keep up the good work.
Wow, those were some bad TLJ-defense arguments. My two cents on a few of them.
1. "Rey's overpowered? What about Anakin? Rey's not OP by Star Wars standards."
First off, criticisms of a different film, valid or not, have no bearing on the primary argument. It's just whataboutism. (Consider this a response to the Poe and Holdo/ Rescue of Han argument later as well.) If you're using a previous film to counter a criticism, it should be to establish that there are precedents for the circumstances being challenged within the story. Anakin is not a valid precedent claim because (as Jay mentioned) Anakin's precocious abilities are far more limited to just a general instinctive use of the Force. Rey uses advanced Force techniques with no training less than an hour after learning the Force isn't a myth. A day or two later, she's achieving things with the Force we've never seen before, performing feats that make even Yoda and Vader look like Muggles by comparison. Young Anakin just has an above average knack for piloting and tinkering. Maybe one could feel he's still better than he should be as a nine year old, but there's no reasonable comparison to Rey to be made.
2. "Finn and Rose's story is pointless to the overall plot? What about Luke and Han in TESB?"
This one's mindblowingly stupid. This is about the very basics of storytelling. You see, in "stories" we have these things called "characters," and those characters want to accomplish "goals." In many stories, there are "protagonists" and "antagonists." Both of these groups have their own goals that they want to achieve. In well-written stories, the actions of characters have "consequences." "Consequential" is literally the antonym of "pointless."
Luke's trip to Dagobah results in him gaining abilities and perspective, both of which are challenged quickly when he rashly decides to abandon his training to save his friends. Because he acts rashly rather than prudently, he is forced into an earlier confrontation with Darth Vader than he was prepared for, and suffers a serious injury and needs to be rescued in turn. Consequence. There's more, but let's move to Han. He attempts to flee from the Empire. To do this, he puts his trust in an old friend, but this turns out to have been an error in judgment. He is captured and frozen in carbonite to be delivered to the crimelord he's also been running from. Consequence. Vader - yes, that's right, he's also a character with his own goals - seeks to capture the Rebels fleeing from Hoth. Through crafty foresight, he sets a trap that snares Han and lures Luke. Vader's victory is ultimately mixed as Luke chooses to throw himself down a shaft rather than surrender to him. Consequence.
Meanwhile, Finn and Rose's adventure leaves them no richer nor poorer in any way significant to the story. They neither accomplish their goals nor suffer any consequences. Even worse, the ups and downs they experience on their sidequest are almost all down to good and bad luck rather than the results of choices they make. You could lift this whole C plot out of the film entirely and lose nothing of note; in fact, you'd arguably improve the film by reducing the bloated runtime.
3. "Snoke's backstory is a fault of TFA and Rian did the best he could."
At this point it starts to feel like TLJ defenders are like children who are frightened because they got caught causing mischief and start tattling on everyone they can. "But JJ did bad stuff, too! How come he's not in trouble?!" While I personally like the Snoke depicted in TFA, it's certainly a flaw that there's no explanation as to who he is or where he came from to essentially take over the Empire. So yes, JJ did a bad. (Though I'd partially agree as Jay suggests that TFA already had its plate full with new characters to introduce and deserves a bit of a pass for leaving some of the work for future films.) However, this error essentially made Snoke a massive creative opportunity for Rian to define him however he wanted.
So what did Rian do? He put Snoke in two scenes that ruined his established character and then killed him off unceremoniously because fuck everyone else working on this trilogy. He had free rein and did nothing with it but screw things up. Saying that Rian did the best he could with Snoke is more insulting to Rian than any criticism of the film I've heard.
I’ve seen all the prequel‘s, and one of my favorite parts was young Anakin
Saying “okay, now THIS is pod racing!”
One defense that’s annoying is “The other Star Wars movies were bad, so this is allowed to be bad as well”
Two years late but sometimes Shaun just makes me go "what?" and I loved what they did with Luke in TLJ
My favourite thing where I just went "what?" was when he said that feminism doesn't do anything, it's not a monster in your closet.
It’s equal parts good and bad and it rly just depends on ur bs tolerance. I think both sides either give the Last Jedi too little or too much credit. I respect the movie for trying something new and trying to say something. The last half of the movie is also good. But there’s a LOT of dumb bs in the movie, ESPECIALLY the first half. I’d give it a 5/10. It was a very weird movie to critique.
I feel like some of the problems people have with Ray could be solve if they limited her use of the Force and other things that she can do and then later train to get better at it. Basically if the pacing of the movies were handled better then some of the hate on Ray would've been taken care of.
Course there are more problems to deal with but it's a start.
Well, the thing is that she's evolving in a time where people have expectations of the way that the force works and think it's just a matter of training and exploiting a power pool while in the OT Luke mostly get by with the power of belief until they retconned that in Legends with "oh, actually, he trained off screen, and dagobah is timey whimey". The Force is a mystical sentient power and will always allow its favorite to cheat like the gods of old stories.
Tbh non of the “plotholes” in the Sequel Trilogy” are actually plotholes. They are just things the movie doesn’t explain. Yes this is still a negitive BUT it isn’t an inconsistency.
The plan was to have lando do recon, and lando said security was too heavy for him to let han out, so they tried plan b. When plan b failed, luke went in, and was purposely captured, knowing that r2d2 was there and that when it all went "south", he was going to be able to get his lightsaber at any moment and escape, catching everyone off-guard. I think they knew they would be taken to the sarlacc pit, cuz lando told them it was one of jabbas favorites. He was there long enough to see it for himself many times.
The plot to rescue Han in Return of the Jedi wasn't just one plan, it was multiple plans put into action. Lando was gathering intel, which is why he was in Jabba's palace, Leia went into hand Chewie over so she could in to rescue Han, Lando would later smuggle Chewie out. However, when she got caught it caused Luke to in act a different plan to go into rescue Han, Leia and Chewie by getting himself captured, which is why he sent C3P0 & R2D2 in first, with his lightsaber hidden inside R2D2.
I think that it's absolutely ridiculous that this move is a controversial topic.
Luke wanted to give Jabba a chance to not have to be killed. Luke is a light side Jedi and not a murderer so he didn't go in guns blazing. They wanted multiple people on the inside first to increase the chance of it winning. More aces up the sleeve. They didn't explain it to 3P0 because 3P0 is an idiot. Is this really something people don't understand?
I once made the mistake of opining on Twitter that I was disappointed we didn’t get to see Luke actually step into the role of Jedi Master, as I felt it would have completed his arc from the OT. Someone responded to me with, “You’re just disappointed because you didn’t get what you wanted.” All I could say was, “That is the literal definition of disappointment, yes.” I still have no idea what point that person thought they were making.
I think it probably stems from the idea that the desires of fans don't necessarily make for good storytelling, and from a belief (however accurate or mistaken) that you were saying TLJ was bad because the audience didn't see Luke step into that role. There's a fairly pervasive viewpoint that anything fans *want* to see amounts to "OMG wouldn't it be awesome if..." levels of stereotypical nerdery. Therefore, complaints about not seeing something that you wanted are automatically invalidated because, since you're a fan and not a filmmaker, what you want to see isn't good.
Technically, after an epic comes a comedy and then a tragedy ( in the entire cycle of a quest myth) so we should have seen some of that for Luke
Love your appearances on EFAP and I'm a big fan of Shaun's channel as well. Thought you made good points here and were able to counter Shauns arguments in a respectful way :)
_I'm a big fan of Shauns as well_
Get out.
Really didn't like TLJ but I like your videos. Here's my counters to your counters.
1. Rey's an adult. If Anakin was raised not knowing about force and learned at twenty, I think his overwhelming force would still allow him to have great power on the first day he learns about it.
Also regardless of whether people like young Anakin, it's canon and provides context for the potential of future force users. Shaun's not criticizing the prequels. He's using it as precedent.
2. Like you said, he's saying that the movie isn't automatically bad because characters fail. You are both in agreement here.
3. He said you can't use the convoluted plan to say that everything in starwars is broken due to SJWs. He didn't say you can't dislike or criticize it.
4. I think your right. Just because you inherit a weak position doesn't mean you can't make the best of it. They could have explained his backstory just like they explained the story of the Emperor in the first Trilogy.
I might be wrong in my reasoning. If I missed something, someone correct me. Adds traction to this video.
4 4 they didn’t explain the emperor in the OT
@@PatheticApathetic Exactly :p
4 4 I see what you did there
1. That's a complete assumption and also characters not having to train to be skilled at something that we have no reason to beleive theyare skilled at is bad character writing.
2 and 3. Most of the movie feels pointless and unsatisfying because half of it leads to nothing. In empire Han and Leia grow as characters on their journey but Finn and Rose's journey only leads to Rose's idiotic ski speeder crash. Also the movie treats it as if Holdo is a hero but she caused the problem she solved in the first place.
4. The Force awakens wasn't a weak setup it left things very open
@@finnmanning5497 1) Hey, friend! You're right :p It's an assumption but a pretty good one I feel. Darth Vader was incredibly powerful from birth. I think you'd agree that even if he hadn't known of the force until he was older he's so powerful, he'd be able to pick it up quickly because he was born as the chosen one.
I'm with you. It's bad writing but it existed before sequels. They're working in universe for better or worse.
2 and 3 I didn't say anything about Holdo. These points don't feel like a responses to mine still, you're wrong about the annoying Rose Finn half. I thought it was boring and wish that it payed off with something but Finn's character was changed from someone who wouldn't sacrifice his safety for a greater cause into someone who would kamikaze into a portable mini-death star. Character change counts as something.
4) Dude, I'm not the first person to point out how derivative TFA was ;) It's fine. Makes people comfy with the familiar but it also undermines the entire war in the OT. Luke, Ben, all the rebel's sacrifices were pointless. Another nearly identical group stepped in off screen. If you want to highlight pointless threads where heroes' sacrifices are undermined, leading to nothing look at what the Force Awakens did to the trilogy.
The first critisism is valid Luke did an almost impossible shot with only a few days of knowing the force exist
It's all about presentation. Luke's shot is explained by his comment in the Briefing room about him being really good at shooting stuff.
@@myhr2320 still Han says "Great shot kid that was one in a million"
@@Angel_8266 I don't really see the problem. Luke states he already made very hard shots before. It's a hint that he was either already good at shooting or unknowingly using the Force to make these shots before the beginning of the movie. Han is just acknowledging the odds. What's your point?
Do you really not seeing a difference between pressing shoot button after force commands so and actually using force at master level? Ability to sense force requires only to be force sensitive whereas the latter requires tons of practice.
Not even almost the same. That's like someone who never held a gun before being a master marksman and someone who regularly shot small rodents at long distances being a master marksman. While neither is particularly likely, one is significantly less likely than the other.
Sure, it's a hand wave explanation, but it is an explanation.
A lot of people criticize TFA because she beat Kylo. I disagree, he was wounded and emotionally distressed from just having killed his father. She is experienced in defending herself. Granted she was used to using her staff rather than a lightsaber, but it is enough to make it more on-par with Luke making that shot. Her abilities in TLJ are just too over the top.
Shaun is still right about Star Wars characters always being overpowered. Rey is also a "Chosen One" sort of like how Anakin was. The one constant thing about the Force is that it seeks balance. Since the "Dark Side" is overpowered as fuck in the new films then that means somewhere the light side is gathering power to meet it. Rey is the only light side force user doing anything useful so as far as we know she is going to be really damn strong, maybe even Anakin strong.
Snoke himself explains this to the audience by saying something like,"I told you as you get stronger with the dark side your peer on the light side will rise as well".
Snoke was extremely prominent in the marketing and trailers. He was literally the narrator in both 'Force Awakens' and 'Last Jedi' trailers. Him dying in a parody fashion with his tongue sticking out, is neither funny, or a smart surprise, nor a twist that make any kind of sense. It is just a stupid idea by an incompetent writer who thinks he is demonstrating cleverness by deliberately going against what the audience have been teased for and expect.
The argument that I've heard within regards of Snoke that felt the most satisfying to me was that Snoke was a red herring, so ultimately his backstory doesn't really matter.
NEW BAND NAME: Two Lesbians in an Overcoat
And all the band members are male because reasons.
As I've known, JJ Abrams didn't plan the trilogy at all, and Rian Johnson himself said that no one gave him directions of where to go, so he did what he wanted, practically.
People didn't like Rose and Finn's subplot because it was pointless, it amounted to nothing. Beside putting Finn and Rose on the enemy ship instead of being on their ship. It didn't resolve anything, it didn't change the outcome of any plot. When it was all said and done all the characters ended up in the same location. Hell at best it gave away their plan to the bad guys.
(3:35) Yes, that kind of argument is horrible. Another example:
I wouldn't like USA to be in Eurovision Song Contest. But then people argue "but Australia is in it already" ... yeah, and I never said I liked that.
In German you would say "aneinander vorbei reden". It's like "conversations that are passing by each other". I think, you didn't really understand the point of Shaun's video and are now trying to argue against points but you are actually agreeing with these points.
Shaun's video is specifically about people that are of the opinion that the sequel is specifically worse than the original trilogy or even the prequels. And these people point out these flaws and say they are the reason, this new movie is bad. So for example at 9:45 when you talk about the three points someone would have to make to be criticized, that is what Shaun was talking about: There are people, who argue, that they hate TLJ because of all these flaws, that these flaws are the main reason they don't like the movie and the praise the movies before without mentioning, that they have the same flaws, so are seemingly fine with them. And Shawn's wider point is then, that that would be ridiculous and cannot be true. So maybe some other reason is behind the hate and not the technical movie flaws, that these people don't want to openly state.
Luke's plan wasn't shit, though. The point of everyone getting captured was to get everyone on the inside. Jabba lives in a fortress. Even the Empire couldn't crack it. The only way to get everyone inside was to get everyone captured. Lando had contacts that got him a guard's uniform, so he could help the heroes escape.
The Holdo problem isn't imo even to do with the plan not making sense entirely. A big part of it is the fact that it is the basis for Poe's character arc because Holdo is meant to be right in her decision to not be transparent. The problem here is that it makes Poe's arc hollow because the only lesson the film seems to want Poe to learn is to follow orders without question.
The problem with the Admerial Holdo plot in TLJ wasnt so much that her plan was poorly thought out(although it was), it was that she refused to communicate to anybody under her, made it look like she didnt have any plan(not even a poorly thought out one), and still expected people to obey her just because.
That might have been fine if the film had expected us to see her in a negative light. If it portrayed her as a poor leader who's actions(or lack there of) led to Poe's mutiny and most of the problems in the film. But quite the opposite we're expected to see Poe as somehow in the wrong, even though he wasnt.
I feel like Snoke didn't need a backstory. I like how Rian subverted this idea of Snoke as this all powerful guy, Kylo seemingly coming to the light side. And then bang, rug pulled out from under you.
But this guy was somehow able to win over Kylo and completely flip the political landscape of the galaxy from where we last left it 30 years ago, while also being a master Dark-Side Force user; a practice that was supposed to have died with Vader and Palpatine. I wouldn't want complete knowledge of his backstory, but we should at least know enough to know how he managed to do this; especially being a master of wielding the Dark Side of the Force.
@@matthewmuir8884 At no point was it ever stated that the Sith were the only darksider practitioners out there. Canonical shows included other organizations like the Nightsisters in Clone Wars and the Inquisitorius in Rebels. Furthermore, the First Order hails from the Unknown Regions - who's to say darksiders don't exist out there?
@@kimarous The Inquisitors were basically Sith wannabes that Palpatine created and the Nightsisters not only were wiped out, but they were practitioners of weird potions and stuff; not the kind of Force Powers that the Sith and Snoke use.
"The First Order hails from the unknown regions" yes; the films explain that very well. Wait; they don't. The films never give any information on the rise of the First Order other than that they "rose from the ashes of the Empire".
Anakin was supposed to be the one who destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force, yet here's another group of Dark Side Force Users with no clear distinctions from the Sith running around just 30 years later, with no explanation.
I think the big difference between Canto Bight and the scenes in Empire are that there was no payoff for the Canto Bight arc, but there was for the arcs in Empire. Luke might not complete his training with Yoda, but he gains a lot of skill with the Force and the insight of seeing himself becoming Vader if he succumbs to the Dark Side, something that helps him empathize with his father. Leia’s group might be caught by the Empire and they might lose Han, but they gain Lando as an ally and thanks to Luke abandoning his training they do get away. By contrast the payoff for Canto Bight is nothing, the group not only doesn’t do what it set out to do but it would be better if they never tried. Now you could make Canto Bight worthwhile if those horse aliens turn out to be valuable allies in Episode 9, or if DJ choosing to join them for real in 9 is important to defeat the First Order the way Lando plays an important role in Return of the Jedi, but I don’t think that’s going to happen.
Okay I'm willing to try:
Why not tell C3PO the plan? Because how long do you think he would last before he'd spill the beans, he doesn't shut up.
Why did Luke smuggler the sabre in? Easy, because Jabba would have made sure to have him disarmed the second he saw the sabre. Unless Luke wanted to murder his way through the palace, entering with the sabre would have been a terrible idea.
Why did Leia go in with chewie? Because they were embedding themselves into the palace so when Luke arrived, if it all went to shit they had a plan B. Chewbacca wasn't someone they could easily infiltrate with so they used him to help Leia infiltrate the palace using a plan similar to what they did in a new hope, having Chewie act as a prisoner.
Personally I think Leia unfreezing Han wasn't part of the plan. She only did it because she couldn't stand to see him like that. A brief moment of weakness that fortunately ended up putting her in a position to kill Jabba.
Just because what we saw worked out didn't mean it was the only plan or the best case scenario. The first casualty of any battle is the plan of attack after all.
Wait a critic not using emotions in the critique of something?