The fact that I can instantly recognize the thousands of years old loan words as the modern equivalent in modern Finnish, Porsas, Kehrä and Piimä, is just astonishing to me, and gives quite a bit of credibility to the thesis. Thank you for the entertaining and informative video.
Read you comment very early in the video and that forced me to think, the name for copper is similar to vaski, which isn't quite modern finnish but a clear similarity there as well
@@Omit1tulliportin its not that serious, posting in Finno-Ugric in Finno-Ugric YT video is understandable and if ppl arent into it they wont upvote it and takes 1 sec to lick transtale to enligh
Aryan is the root word for "Orja" (slave) for us Finno'-Ugrians?!? Ahaha! That is just too precious! Absolutely wonderful video! Hope to see more from you mate and greetings from Finland!
Sounds like Wettenhovi-Aspa’s etymology. The Finnish word orja is not originally connected to Aryan. The word comes directly from the Finnic languages and shares origins with the Russian word раб (rab), meaning slave. There is a theory that раб and similar words in other Slavic languages derive from the Proto-Indo-European root orbh- or orbho-, which meant alone, abandoned, or orphaned. In this way, the word could be related to the English orphan. As the old meaning shifted, the concept of a subordinate status developed in society, which was later associated with slavery.
@@mrhungerpastor Except cognates to "orja" in other Uralic languages don't just mean "slave" or "servant", but also "southerner". And who lived south of early Uralic speakers?
It depends on whether the literal evidence still exists and is legible. It just as well could be called the Hollywoodian-Post-Shakespearian Culture, for the cultural features or a major geographical center of the culture. Or, by the places where the first typical finds are discovered: the Landfill Culture or the Steel-Concrete Ruin Culture.
Lmao. Most preliterary culturals are identified by their pottery in archeology. This corded ware style of pottery originated in the sredny stog culture. We now have genetics to show what happened though. Most of the western finno-ugric people are majority descent from these groups and european hunter gathers just like most other northern Europeans. Some of them western steppe herder and European hunter gatherer. Finns and Estonians have up to 55% ancestory from them. But clearly, a lot more of their paternal ancestory is from these groups than their maternal hence N1C. So they were a pretty dominante force. Khanty and mansi are majority nganasan though like samoyedic groups.
There is a small hill in the middle of my home village frequently used for festive activities, where with minimal excavation one can clearly observe how "brown glass bottles in plastic baskets" culture has gradually been replaced by the more advanced "aluminum cans in a cardboard box" culture.
Wow, amazingly well made for such a small channel, may the algorithm bless this more than it already has. Thanks for the video and good tidings to you Jürg!
Fellow Estonian here. Super interesting to learn about our origins with these videos. Looking forward to the next one! edit: also great work with the animations and thumbnail
Great video! The idea that proto-Uralics lived around Lake Baikal, which seems to be confirmed by archaeology, also brings to mind the old "Ural-Altaic language family" theory, which is not supported as a language family today. The linguistic features that the old Ural-Altaic theory was based on may very well have been loaned between the proto-Uralic and "Altaic" language speakers around Lake Baikal, or east from there. East is the direction from where proto-Uralics seemingly came to the Lake Baikal area (seemingly from around Manchuria according to genetic studies). Although your video does not go this far back (for good reasons), it might be an interesting topic to explore sometime!
@istvannemeth1026 Depends how you look at it. Like modern English uses latin/French words for anything complicated, Germanic for simple things, yet genetically they are mostly Celts.
Amazing video. The story of the Finno-Ugrian people is as complex as it is compelling. I’m so glad a well made video like this came out that synthesizes archaeological findings with modern interpretations. Kiitos!
So interesting!! Thank you! 😊 I am a history buff here in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I have had an intermittent facination with where this Finno-Ugric speaking people came from! We have a sizable number of Canadians in northern Ontario (Thunder Bay) of Finnish ancestry. It's a bit more complicated than I thought. Your explanation based on new insights in genetics and archeology is fascinating and interesting! Thanks again, and you have gained a new subscriber! ❤
It's also interesting how the examples you brought up for loanwords can not be found in Hungarian, but i suppose even back then the dissolution of the language family was well underway. Pig is sertés, which has a ugric root in serte, which means rough hair. Wheel is kerék, which is supposedly from the finno-ugric root of ker- which means around and milk is tej, which is from iranic. If this theory is true, then maybe different parts of the uralics contacted different parts of the iranics and that's how the diversity of words can be explained.
And words have changed very much. Old word siŋere, first part nowadays hiir (észtül) fíreg (székely) és egér (magyar). Different times; persian 1000=hezar (igen, igen). Finnish borrowed only 100=sata.
The ker- root is interesting to me as a Finnish speaker. Kerä in Finnish means "a roll" (or "a coil" or "a ball"), kera is an archaic word meaning "(together) with", kerätä means "to gather", keriä means "to coil/roll (something together)", kerjätä means "to beg", kertoa means "to tell" or "to multiply" (likely original meaning), kerta means "a time", kerros means "a layer" or "a floor (of a building)", keretä means "to be on time"... I think there is a general connection in these words to the concepts of going around, circling, repeating and coming together. Edit: Oh, I forgot the kier- words in Finnish, such as kiertää meaning "to go around (something)", kiero meaning "twisted", and kierros meaning "a lap/round (around something)"... These too seem to be connected to the Uralic ker- root.
Thank you, super interesting! I didn’t know all the details of all these groups moving around in central Asia, later becoming Iranians, Finns, Estonians, …
Thank you everyone for the feedback and kind words! I probably won't be able to respond to all the comments, so I will address some common questions and issues regarding the subject matter in this comment. 1. Questions about genetics i.e. "Why are Finns/Estonians/Hungarians mostly Indo-European genetically?" As I stated in the video, the original Finno-Ugrians were a relatively small male-dominant group, and the more west they went (Finland, Estonia and Hungary being the western-most ends of the Finno-Ugric belt) the more they intermarried with various Indo-European groups, such as Indo-Iranians, Balts, Germanics and Slavs. There was no point in time at which 100% Asian Finno-Ugrians came to Finland and gave Finns their language. It was a gradual intermixing, taking place within thousands of years. It is not at all different from Indo-European migrations in this sense. Indo-European genes are also dominant (50+%) in regions where there was a smaller population of previous inhabitants such as Scandinavia and the British isles, meanwhile in Southern Europe and the Iranic and Indo-Aryan countries, the percentage of Indo-European DNA is smaller compared to the DNA inherited from previous inhabitants. Both Indo-Europeans and Finno-Ugrians left a strong impact on the male Y-DNA lines however. Around 60% of Finnish men and 40% of Estonian men carry Finno-Ugric Y-DNA haplogroup N1a. Ethnicity ofcourse is much more complex than just DNA or haplogroups, but let's just say that it is not some random happenstance of history that Estonians, Finns and Hungarians speak a Finno-Ugric language. Unfortunately the details of historic Finno-Ugric genetics are unclear, since there are very few genetic samples from Bronze and Iron Age Finno-Ugrians. If anyone in the comments is making big claims with specific numbers about Finno-Ugric genetics, take it with skepticism. 2. "You can't conflate language with genetics/people." Well, you kinda can. I have yet to seen an example from history, the Bronze Age no less, where languages travelled completely independently from people. To begin with, I'm not sure what the point of this argument is, if it even is arguing for anything. Unfortunately you can't tell from the finds of Bronze Age individuals what language they spoke, but you can tell what their genetics were. I don't see a reason to make things so complicated that we must follow the genetics of a people completely separately from the language. Nor do I think it is wild to draw a connection between the appearance of Eastern-origined bronzeware, Siberian genes and Uralic languages, as many scientists have done before. 3. "You can't pinpoint the homelands of each group with archeological cultures." For the most part, this is true. I purposefully didn't talk much about the later cultures that derived from Seima-Turbino, because a lot of them were last studied in the Soviet era, before archeogenetics. I added them as possible connections between Finno-Ugric subgroups and archeological finds, as linguists and archeologists alike have pinpointed the homelands of Finno-Ugric groups to these rough locations. Archeology has to be used together with genetics and linguistics to form the full image, which is what I attempted to do. 4. "You can't take all this with 100% certainty." This is also true. Truth is that a period this long ago in history will never be fully understood, and as science develops so will our knowledge of these happenings. Perhaps in 10 years this video will be entirely outdated, who knows. But we should not let such uncertainties stop us from talking about these subjects and presenting them in an interesting way. My goal with this video was not to have a 3h presentation full of "what-ifs" and "probably-s" and "scientists have theorised-s", but rather to present the topic in a way that is simple, digestible and forms some sort of cohesive narrative in the viewer's mind. For that it is necessary to stylize and exaggerate some things and not focus too much on the uncertainties. Ofcourse for the curious minds, you can always read the original sources that I drew from which I wrote down in the description. I strongly encourage you to look into these topics yourself and absorb knowledge from all various fields such as genetics, archeology and linguistics. 5. Questions regarding Paleo-Europeans Migrating Finno-Ugrians probably made limited contact with Paleo-Europeans, since most of them settled on the forest-steppe border previously inhabited by Indo-Europeans. Paleo-Europeans lived further north and a Paleo-European (particularly EHG) component has been found in the Komi people for example. It is also commonly agreed that Paleo-Europeans played a huge role in the formation of the Samis and that their languages have a strong influence from the hypothetical Paleo-Laplandic and Paleo-Lakelandic languages. I'm afraid though that neither Paleo-Europeans nor Samis are my expertise, so I can't provide more details at the moment. 6. "Where did Pre-Proto-Uralics live prior to arrival on the Altai mountains?" According to current information, the Trans-Baikal region is the best bet. It seems to fit with the genetics, geography and archeology. But there will probably be new revelations in this topic in the coming years. 7. "This is anti-Aryan propaganda." Yes.
I kinda feel called out by points 2. 3. and 4. Almost as if they were directly referring to my comments. :) As far as i know, we have examples of languages getting transferred to a different genetic population in the middle-east, namely the Semitic languages being inherited by new populations of the Levant and Mesopotamia, but of course as always, i might be wrong. Also it's easier to keep track of the linguistic history of the mentioned areas at this time, because a lot of them wrote, or started writing relatively soon after. Chalcolithic and bronze age northern Eurasians did not write, hence my skepticism towards making strong assertions about who spoke what. Either way take it easy, the people you spoke about in the video played a significant role in shaping European history without a doubt, whether or not all of them carried a Uralic language, or even if just some, and even if their language in reality is lost in time and it became a substrate in later languages. To the subtle jab that i don't read about the topic at all: i do, i just don't find the assumptions 100% convincing and that's why i wrote what i did. I also have an unorthodox view on the linguistics aspect by the way, as I've noticed quite a lot of etymologies within Hungarian, Germanic, Slavic and Iranic languages where very similar words in meaning and form are said to come from either Uralic or Indo-European seemingly randomly. If you want me to give some examples of the things i've noticed, i'll gladly write about them. To cut it short: I suspect either the two language families have been in contact for a very very long time to have evolved these cognates, or they might even be related. This suspicion isn't even an outlandish one by the way, as it has been historically theorized by many minds in the past much greater than mine. It just isn't the generally accepted one. Still though, i treat my observations with a healthy skepticism as well, because the etymology dictionaries too could be wrong and i am still just speculating about things that have not been attested in writing. Also we are talking about linguistics here. By it's nature this branch of science can not be as rigid and clear-cut as mathematics for example. There are regularities in it of course, but there are also plenty of irregular shifts within a language which really doesn't help, does it? I also see a lot of comments theorizing a Uralic-Turkic link, but i have not researched that in-depth so i won't give my opinions. But i assume you can see how it's not an easy topic, as Uralics seem to be right at the crossroads and a part of so many Eurasian cultures and languages. :)
I am ethnic Chinese in Singapore who tested my Y-DNA and it belongs to Haplogroup N, initially I was very surprised because it is not at all common among modern Chinese populations :) Despite our relatively low frequency among modern East Asian populations we have a large diversity of basal subclades suggesting the origin of Haplogroup N-M231 was most likely indeed in northern East Asia (probably northern China where we have some 10,000 year old samples located in Shandong region). More recently Chinese research papers and DNA tests done on many ancient remains around northern China seem to suggest Haplogroup N was far more common in northern China than it was today, particularly around the Bohai Sea region; however at some point the rapid expansion of Haplogroup O from the south displaced and replaced much of the East Asian population such that today >80% of East Asians belong to Haplogroup O instead. That said however, the royal family of Zhou dynasty which was the longest and most influential dynasty in Chinese history also likely belongs to Haplogroup N1a2a, according to papers released by Chinese researchers, title 'The impacts of bronze age in the gene pool of Chinese: Insights from phylogeographics of Y-chromosomal haplogroup N1a2a-F1101'. The initial differentiation location of N1a2a-F1101 and its most closely related branch, N1a2b-P43, a major lineage of Uralic-speaking populations in northern Eurasia, is likely the west part of northeast China. After ~4 thousand years of bottleneck effect period, haplgroup N1a2a-F1101 experienced continuous expansion during the Chalcolithic age (~ 4.5 kya to 4 kya) and Bronze age (~ 4 kya to 2.5 kya) in northern China. Ancient DNA evidence supported that this haplogroup is the lineage of ruling family of Zhou Dynasty (~ 3 kya-2.2 kya) of ancient China
@@Baso-sama Hi friend! I support the theory that uralic-altaic (finnic, ugric, turkic, hunnic, mongolic, koreanic, japonic) languages are originated from northeast asia, east asia (Liao river according to Martina Robbeets of Max Planck Institut). Moreover, I think these uralic-altaic languages are related to other southeast asian agglutinative languages and dene-caucasian languages. Additionally, I also think that indoeuropean languages have derived from intermixing between agglutinative (east) + old fusional (west) languages. I am not an expert in linguistics, but I wanted to share my findings matching with ydna genetics. As I mentioned, I think such a connection is also supported by ydna genetics. If we look at ydna haplogroups we can see such distribution: N - north asia, finnic, uralic, paleosiberian, siberian turkic, tungusic, O - southeast asia, east asia, austronesian, austroasiatic, sinitic, koreanic, japonic, P - southeast asia, northeast asia, siberia, philippinese, malaisian, siberian (altai) turkic, nivkh, Q - northeast asia, americas, nadene/athabask, iroquoian, native american, aztecan, mesoamerican, andean, peruvian, R - central asia, south asia, europe, middle east, uyghur turkic, karluk turkic, oghuz turkic (turkmen, turk, azerbaijani), balochi, punjabi etc. north indian, urdu, pashtun, kipchak turkic (kazakh, kirgiz, bashkir, tatar), belarusian, russian, ukrainian, permic, ugric, uralic, north caucasian, tyrrhenian, vasconic, saka/scythosiberian, scythian, celtic, italian, iberian, french, german, saxonian, britanian...
Anteeksi, suomalaiset. Ma en tiennut, että "copper" on "kupari" suomeksi. Luulin että "vaski", kuin olen virolainen (eestiläinen) ja eestiksi on copper=vask. I am Estonian. in Estonian, copper is "vask".
Greetings from Finland! Excellent video! The information also aligns with my genetic heritage studies which is very nice to see! I'm half or more Karelian (R-CTS1211 haplogroup). Can't wait for part 2 and beyond. Keep up the great work :)
Facinating stuff! I am a Finnish teacher for foreigners. Mehiläinen (bee) and sata (hundred) are also one of the loan words from Iranian/Aryan Avesta language. Still the hundred meaning word is the same root word in Kurdish languages (sed), Farsi Persian (sad), Dari (sad) and Paštu (sal). I think cent come from the same word to Indo-European language, but I am not *sata prosenttia* sure.
Literally just group of ancient proto proto samoyed men from siberia 4000 years ago that mixed with local european making the sami, mansi, khanty mixed race euro siberian people that some in southern areas then got assimilated in to volgan iranians and balts of estonia creating the finns and komis and such other white uralic speakers who live and look like indo euro/iranian pagans. Sami, mansi and khanty is the siberian euro mixed tribes that continued to live the siberian ways in northern rural areas withous adopting the farmer culture from south. Samoyedic people like nganasan and nenets are the proto uralic that staid in siberias side so they did not mix to european genetics.
Yes the ice cube people who never came from anywhere, had no history and conquered random parts of the world by beating them with some really smelly fish until they gave up their lands. True story that should make it into a movie.
I'm so glad for this neat summary of of a fascinatong topic which otherwise would be spread out across many rather dull research papers and articles. What I would also love to know more about are the pre-Finno-Ugric inhabitants of Northern Europe, and how they might have influenced the Finnics and Sami who arrived later. The elusive "Paleo-Laplandic" and "Paleo-Lakelandic" speakers.
Very fascinating topic. It would be interesting to track down the genetic makeup of each culture in order to see the progressive genesis of modern fino-ugrians as we know them today. Once again, we are lucky to live in an era where we can finaly answer such questions that remained mysteries until now. Great video, I hope you will continue !
Can’t wait for pt 2! I’m mainly Latvian but supposedly Finnish as well. In reality I believe my ancestors were influenced by Livonian ethnicity. I know there are so few Livonians left, but we exist.
Latvians and Lithuanians have slightly more Y-DNA Haplogroup N1a (the typical Uralic / Finno-Ugric patrilineal marker) than R1a, despite speaking an Indo-European / Baltic language. And funnily enough for Estonians the reverse is true (they have slightly more R1a than N1a but they speak a Uralic / Finno-Ugric language).
Interesting to see that porcas has remained almost entirely intact in Finnish nowadays written as porsas. I suspect it hasn't gone through many phonetic changes
Põrsas in Estonian. → Põssa in toddlers tongue. → Põtsa for a chubby one → Possu for endearing diminutive. → Potsu for a cute one. The alternative is "notsu" (making "norsu" bit funny).
@@topiheimola69 there's typically correspondence between toddler-tounge and diminutives (especially of endearing quality). In Estonian, Possu has became pet's name. - Pig or swine is siga (all previously provided are for piglets, but often used for a pig in general as well in toddlers tongue or as endearments). "Notsu" has to do with the snoute. Old pigs are called "kärss" (also the formal term for pig's snout)
A wonderful informative far too short video re Finno -Ugria culture/ history.The metallurgical skills applied to the arms/weapons is very impressive.🌺🤗🫶👍🖖
Wunderbar, meine balt-deutsche brüder, Jürgen von Goldburg 🎉 Das ist ein zupa-kool video mitt ein, hmm... Wie ich sagen? Teutonische qualität!! Eine epische Kreutzwald moment!!
The development of Bronze is one of the pivotal moments of human history. That it is the result of a merging of cultures where the raw materials are readily available makes perfect sense.
This was really cool, thanks for sharing. Do you plan to do more videos about finno-ugric history? Id love to see more like this, especially the hun empire and origins of the magyar
the joke is that the Finno-Ugric language was also spoken in today's Ukraine. The Finno-Ugric were once warriors, see the Hungarian kingdom. defeated Slavs Germans and created one of the largest kingdoms in Europe. So there is nothing to be ashamed of if someone speaks the Finno-Ugric language
Interesting story. Although there is still much debate on whether the Corded Ware or the Yamnaya were Indo-European at all. So defining what the Finno-Ugrians had as culture based on what the Indo-Europeans are supposed to have had is a bit shaky.
Useful video on a topic that gets very little attention. One problem: the map you use is zoomed in so far on the massive land mass of Eurasia that it is extremely difficult to understand where these blobs are actually located.
Very nice video explaining bronze age cultural shifts, although i personally would be a bit more careful with assuming which culture spoke what language. I think it's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate the homeland of each language based on genetics and cultural shifts, unless we subscribe to a diffusionist view and assume languages can not be transferred without genetics. That aside, we wouldn't have these amazing stories if we didn't take the liberty to assume such things, so it's all good. :)
While language can be and often is transferred separately from genetics or material culture, we can easily see in the world of even today that language has a significant connection to or correlation with those things. Additionally, things never come from nowhere in this world. We know that proto-Uralic came to the Volga-Ural area somehow, so we can make hypotheses for the process from available pieces of evidence such as genetics, archaeology, historical records or even climatology. Comparing and analyzing different hypotheses, we can deduce the most likely explanations for the phenomena we are trying to explain, such as the existence of certain language groups today. So, based on this I would disagree with your seeming "we don't know many things with absolute certainty, therefore we know nothing" stance. It is a collection of evidence-based deductions which together builds the theory, even if our confidence in singular pieces of the theory might be on the level of a coin flip (which is much higher than 0%!). The likelihood is very low that all or most of the numerous "coin flip" pieces of evidence that support the theory would be false. Basically you would need to present a better (i.e., more likely) explanation that fits the pieces of evidence that we have in order to discredit the theory.
@@hyhhy as i said: guessing these things is all good, that's how we get stories. it just makes me smile whenever people talk about "uralic genes" and whatnot with so much certainty as if they were talking about whether or not the earth is flat. :)
Didn't connect your name to Estonia at first, but then I remembered song from the master, Juice Leskinen, song name "Jyrki-boy": "Jyrki, Jyrki, älä tyrki, (Jyrki, Jyrki, don't push others over) Jyrki, tee joskus miehen työ (J, do the man's job, at least sometimes) Jyrki, Jyrki, Älä sanojasi syö" (Don't eat your words) All power to Jyrki's all over the world! There are so much between Estonians and Finns we haven't even realized culturally. Most of it's hilarious as it has been long time separating us, and the mishaps between the languages can be quite harsh, but we can laugh at them and those conversations are the funniest new revelations usually.
@@JanosBanics Another Hungarian coping that he is related to "fish smelling berry pickers of the forest" and not Turkic conquerors of the entire globe whose language is the origin of all languages ever.
@@jokemon9547 'kongar' was the endonym of the pecheneg master tribe, who never spoke uralic of finnougric languages... still a popular given name in Tuva (who are pre-turkomongolic tho)... in the early medieval church destroyed every trace of runiform literacy here so its unsure how the average people called themselves (magyar/megyer was name of only 1 tribe from the 7, or possibly 10) and neighbouring already latinized people used "ugros"... the "hungaros" name mustve caught on with the first feudal king Vajk (walach?)/István and his dynasty the Árpáds who prly descended from pechenegs and a khazar princess...
@@jokemon9547 don't listen to these crazies. Sadly there is a massive psyop being circulated in Hungarian boomer circles and they just simply can not follow the latest studies of archeology, genetics and linguistics. I'd say though that most people have a similarly flawed understanding of the formation of peoples, but that's out of the scope of this comment.
Weirdly Uralic languages also have lots of loan words from the proto-indo-european language and vice versa. That's because uralic languages already existed in the forest belt of northern eurasia at least as early as proto-indo-european. And since the northern forest belt of eurasia was so unchanging for so long, the Uralic languages have loan words from practically every language that ever bordered the forest belt in history. Also, the loan words and genetic continuity until russian expansions in early modern times alone demonstrate that the uralic languages are either as old or older than the proto-indo-european language. Probably the only confusing part of the history of the uralic peoples is that the area of the north eurasian forest belt is so vast that there almost always was a spectrum of gradually changing material culture and genetics from finland to east siberia even though they clearly were all connected and very similar. for example, finland and northern scandinavia, unlike the rest of europe got their ceramics and early farming species from china or around that area around 5000bc. That's also why the peoples of finland have always had a few percent of east asian dna in them even in the earliest findings from 6000bc even though those hundreds of findings from 6000bc were the first known people to have have all the major genes for white skin and blonde hair (slc24a5, slc45a2, kitlg and tyrp1).
now this video is awesome. and i admire your dedication, but i do have some issues. i think you should cite your sources inside the video if possible. makes it easier to fact check and makes the info even more reliable. the fact that you are even citing them in the description makes you much better than most youtube history channels! this is a bit pedantic of me but, please make the whooshing sounds are quieter or non-existant. i know which channel youve gotten inspiration from for that and the mouth talking of the drawings. but its better if these images appear on screen quietly. these drawings are very good however! excited to see more. i think some of this info is outdated. west, central and east uralic and such... more elaboration on how scientists have figured out these things would also be nice (perhaps an entire video on this topic?) im excited for more videos from you. good luck on your future endeavours!
Completely off-topic but... If us Finns have "rallienglanti", the accent Estonians have in their spoken english is even more distinguishable. And I love it! :D
Fellow Estonian here, and I also would say that his accent is not typical for Estonians. It's a bit rough and Slavic sounding to me, almost like his English teacher was Russian or something. I'm not saying that as an insult or anything - it's just an observation. Estonia's former president Kersti Kaljulaid is a prime example of a typical Estonian accent, at least in my opinion. She doesn't even try to speak in a British or American accent.
My suggestion is not using the SWOOOSH sound effect for every single time something on the screen moves. Very distracting. Otherwise great video, sources would be nice at the end or desc. And, lastly, what about Liao river valley civilization?
Thank you for the feedback. I put the sources in the description, but UA-cam doesn't allow links so you will have to find them yourself. The connection between Liao river civilization and Uralic people is still a mystery, since none of the early Liao cultures have been tested genetically and it is difficult to trace back Uralics further from 2200BC.
@@fugricjurg I believe at some point the Y-DNA remains for Liao civilisation will be re-tested for the exact Y-DNA subclade and published. It just happened to the samples from Dawenkou culture (Shandong) which were first tested several years ago and gave a very vague result of Haplogroup K (xO) and N. Many samples were re-tested and shows that Dawenkou culture remains mainly belong to Haplogroup N1b1-CTS582>N1b1b-CTS962 (which is my Y-lineage branch and is more common in East Asia) or N1b1a-L727. Something interesting about some of these remains at Dawenkou (particularly Jiaojia archaeological site) is the extraordinary height of these neolithic peoples, some males measuring up to 1.9m which is very tall even for modern standards, even more so for the neolithic era. Chinese researchers have actually been going around testing many ancient historical and prehistoric remains in China, and their ability to test for more exact subclades has improved tremendously over the past several years. I am also paying close attention to their progress. Based on some of the vague results for Liao civilisation so far, it seems more likely that Liao civilisation could also predominantly belong to Haplogroup N1b-F2930 which is a more East Asian branch than a Finno-Ugric branch (N1a). However in northern Hebei (Jiangjialiang archaeological site) which is just nearby there were many old samples belonging to Haplogroup N1a1-TAT. The Zhou dynasty royal family also most likely belongs to Haplogroup N1a2-F1101 which is the sibling branch common among Samoyedic and Ugric peoples. This suggests that the area has a high diversity of Haplogroup N subclades and future digging in that area could produce some more very interesting evidence. Let me know if you're interested to connect (prefer Instagram).
Words like porćas, kečrä, and waśke can't even be reconstructed to Proto-Uralic (see e.g. Aikio 2022, 2015; Holopainen 2019). Agriculture, animal husbandry, and metallurgy are not found in the Proto-Uralic lexicon: They were certainly not inherited traditions from the Altai. I also have no idea why the Proto-Uralic/Finno-Ugric speaker is depicted as a vaguely Turko-Mongol horseman: There is no Proto-Uralic word for 'horse'. Zeng et al. 2023 discusses that the Proto-Uralic genome would have migrated westward into European lands associated with Seima-Turbino, which is not the same as Seima-Turbino originating from Proto-Uralic speakers (this consideration further discussed in e.g. Häkkinen 2023). The phylogenetics, cultural associations, and claims of epic wars presented in this video are without proper academic basis. You could have devoted time to discussing the ample vocabulary for trees, bodies of water, types of fish, nautical terms, etc. that were fundamental to Proto-Uralic communities, instead of focusing on a singular, definitive statement that Uralic ~ "Finno-Ugric" = Seima-Turbino expansion. I would recommend spending more time following the publications of current Uralic etymologists before revisiting such early phases of Uralic pre-history, as one misinterpretation of the evidence can result in an entire theory/project becoming inaccurate (lest we forget the fate of Carlos Quiles).
kehruu looks more like hungarian kerék, which has a finno-ugric root and not iranic. but then we have many such cases where the indo-european and the uralic roots are so similar to eachother that if it happened in the case of any other two language families, people would start to think they had a common ancestor.
Thank you for this well presented and grounded video of the history of the Proto-Finnic empire. It really evoked some nostalgic antedeluvian feelings in me.
Hey mate great video. I'm planning visiting estonia and finland this december and I've been learning their history. I read up somewhere that finns (uralic finns) got into finland territory during neolithic, and that in calcolithic and bronze age the usage of bronze was limited due to their limited exposure to the metals, since they were in the corner in the world. Is this false? It looks very distinct to what you just showed here. Btw, I love the tocharian mention.
Väga hea ülevaatlik video. Vinget asja ajad! Kas Novgorodi rahvaste lääne-uurali päritolu kohta ka uurinud oled? Tõenäoliselt oli too riik enamuses lääne-uurali keelne (tšuudi keeled, merja, läänemeresoome). Oleks huvitav täpsemalt teada.
Look. I like the narative. It could be true to an unknown level. It is definitely worth watching. I have no tools to determin the genetic side of the picture. Might i ask about the matriaxchic DNA? although i already suspect it is mostly yhaploed culture,..
6:09 It is a bit misleading to put it this way. Cremation goes in and out of fashion (at least in Finland). In the early iron age full body burials are prevalent, with cremation coming back into play at least as late as the viking period. Whenever you get to finns in a separate video, I'd recommend "Muinaisuutemme jäljet" by Georg Haggren et al. Unfortunately, it seems to only have a finnish version, but it is a nice base foundation on finnish pre-history and early historical period.
The fact that I can instantly recognize the thousands of years old loan words as the modern equivalent in modern Finnish, Porsas, Kehrä and Piimä, is just astonishing to me, and gives quite a bit of credibility to the thesis.
Thank you for the entertaining and informative video.
Read you comment very early in the video and that forced me to think, the name for copper is similar to vaski, which isn't quite modern finnish but a clear similarity there as well
@huuphuup1526 That too! Reading old bible translations on the regular, and vaski stood out to me as well!
@@huuphuup1526 Vaske on vaski kupariseos.
WE ARE TOTALLY A REAL FAMILY
WE A CLAN NOW
JUST LIKE HOW INDIANS AND EUROPEANS ARE ONE PEOPLE SO ARE FINNS AND HUNGARIANS
Vaski old name for bronze in Finnish, very interesting video.
As a representative of the Finno-Ugrics, I can proudly claim, that we came to existence spontaniously
We manifested into the promised land of Karelia.
We manifested ourselves into existence through Kalevalan magic!
@@murmenaattori6Karjala takas perkele!
@@JTF-THT Vaikka pullo kerrallaan!
We spawned later but got some nice traits like bronze.
Kunnollinen ja hyvin tehty video. Toivottavasti teet jatkoa!!
He is Estonian not Finnish. Did you watch the video you praised?
@ Katsoin kyllä, ja tiedän Jürgin olevan virolainen. En vaan kannata englannin kielen ylivaltaa, joten kirjoitin suomeksi.
@@Omit1tulliportinIhme anglofiili
@@camel2160 Englannin kielen ylivaltaa videossa joka on tehty englanniksi? Olet sää kyl kans valopää :D
@@Omit1tulliportin its not that serious, posting in Finno-Ugric in Finno-Ugric YT video is understandable and if ppl arent into it they wont upvote it and takes 1 sec to lick transtale to enligh
Awesome content as usual, glad to see you still actively teaching us.
Thanks! Good to hear from you again too. It has been a while!
Aryan is the root word for "Orja" (slave) for us Finno'-Ugrians?!? Ahaha! That is just too precious!
Absolutely wonderful video! Hope to see more from you mate and greetings from Finland!
The germans are but only slaves for us
That nugget of gold is going to win us so many pissing matches.
Sounds like Wettenhovi-Aspa’s etymology. The Finnish word orja is not originally connected to Aryan. The word comes directly from the Finnic languages and shares origins with the Russian word раб (rab), meaning slave. There is a theory that раб and similar words in other Slavic languages derive from the Proto-Indo-European root orbh- or orbho-, which meant alone, abandoned, or orphaned. In this way, the word could be related to the English orphan. As the old meaning shifted, the concept of a subordinate status developed in society, which was later associated with slavery.
@@mrhungerpastor Except cognates to "orja" in other Uralic languages don't just mean "slave" or "servant", but also "southerner". And who lived south of early Uralic speakers?
@@jokemon9547 If we go down that line, then "etätyö" is slave labor.
"corded ware" culture.
Will future archeologist speak of "microwave pizza" culture and how they supplanted the "aluminum casserole" people?
It depends on whether the literal evidence still exists and is legible. It just as well could be called the Hollywoodian-Post-Shakespearian Culture, for the cultural features or a major geographical center of the culture. Or, by the places where the first typical finds are discovered: the Landfill Culture or the Steel-Concrete Ruin Culture.
Lmao. Most preliterary culturals are identified by their pottery in archeology. This corded ware style of pottery originated in the sredny stog culture. We now have genetics to show what happened though. Most of the western finno-ugric people are majority descent from these groups and european hunter gathers just like most other northern Europeans. Some of them western steppe herder and European hunter gatherer. Finns and Estonians have up to 55% ancestory from them. But clearly, a lot more of their paternal ancestory is from these groups than their maternal hence N1C. So they were a pretty dominante force. Khanty and mansi are majority nganasan though like samoyedic groups.
There is a small hill in the middle of my home village frequently used for festive activities, where with minimal excavation one can clearly observe how "brown glass bottles in plastic baskets" culture has gradually been replaced by the more advanced "aluminum cans in a cardboard box" culture.
Vaiha sun nimi
@@rvaviima "dishwasher salmon culture".
Old finnish word for copper/copper alloy is vaski
Yup, same was with ancient Estonian "vask", meaning "bronze" while elemental copper itself was "puna(ne)vask", meaning "red copper"
Vas means iron in Hungarian
@@AverageHungaryan iron is rauta in finnish
@@normoloidAnd "teräs" for "steel" was historically a term for iron and other metals used to make blades.
@@normoloidrauta is a germanic loanword. The English cognate word is "red".
I have respect for you for not deleting/privating your old videos, despite uploading this far more professional video.
Basiacly the later Schytian or Schyto-Siberian world emerges from Finno-Ugric and Indo-Iranian fusion.
Wow, amazingly well made for such a small channel, may the algorithm bless this more than it already has. Thanks for the video and good tidings to you Jürg!
Great video! Can't wait for the second part.
Fellow Estonian here. Super interesting to learn about our origins with these videos. Looking forward to the next one!
edit: also great work with the animations and thumbnail
Great video! The idea that proto-Uralics lived around Lake Baikal, which seems to be confirmed by archaeology, also brings to mind the old "Ural-Altaic language family" theory, which is not supported as a language family today. The linguistic features that the old Ural-Altaic theory was based on may very well have been loaned between the proto-Uralic and "Altaic" language speakers around Lake Baikal, or east from there. East is the direction from where proto-Uralics seemingly came to the Lake Baikal area (seemingly from around Manchuria according to genetic studies).
Although your video does not go this far back (for good reasons), it might be an interesting topic to explore sometime!
I still support it. Hungarian is actually Urallic and Altaic mix.
@@gyozopHungarian is an Uralic language with many Turkic (and other) loanwords.
@istvannemeth1026 Depends how you look at it. Like modern English uses latin/French words for anything complicated, Germanic for simple things, yet genetically they are mostly Celts.
This is the best video about the migration and evolution of the uralic peoples I have come across, keep up the good work!
Very high quality video, great job!
Amazing video. The story of the Finno-Ugrian people is as complex as it is compelling. I’m so glad a well made video like this came out that synthesizes archaeological findings with modern interpretations. Kiitos!
So interesting!! Thank you! 😊 I am a history buff here in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I have had an intermittent facination with where this Finno-Ugric speaking people came from! We have a sizable number of Canadians in northern Ontario (Thunder Bay) of Finnish ancestry. It's a bit more complicated than I thought. Your explanation based on new insights in genetics and archeology is fascinating and interesting! Thanks again, and you have gained a new subscriber! ❤
Awesome stuff! Thank you for this great story! Skål from Norway!
this is amazing, thank you
It's also interesting how the examples you brought up for loanwords can not be found in Hungarian, but i suppose even back then the dissolution of the language family was well underway. Pig is sertés, which has a ugric root in serte, which means rough hair. Wheel is kerék, which is supposedly from the finno-ugric root of ker- which means around and milk is tej, which is from iranic. If this theory is true, then maybe different parts of the uralics contacted different parts of the iranics and that's how the diversity of words can be explained.
And words have changed very much. Old word siŋere, first part nowadays hiir (észtül) fíreg (székely) és egér (magyar).
Different times; persian 1000=hezar (igen, igen). Finnish borrowed only 100=sata.
The ker- root is interesting to me as a Finnish speaker. Kerä in Finnish means "a roll" (or "a coil" or "a ball"), kera is an archaic word meaning "(together) with", kerätä means "to gather", keriä means "to coil/roll (something together)", kerjätä means "to beg", kertoa means "to tell" or "to multiply" (likely original meaning), kerta means "a time", kerros means "a layer" or "a floor (of a building)", keretä means "to be on time"... I think there is a general connection in these words to the concepts of going around, circling, repeating and coming together.
Edit: Oh, I forgot the kier- words in Finnish, such as kiertää meaning "to go around (something)", kiero meaning "twisted", and kierros meaning "a lap/round (around something)"... These too seem to be connected to the Uralic ker- root.
@@hyhhy kérni (hungarian) - to ask :) amazing reply, thank you. i think i will save it somewhere and go forward on this thread sometime.
Wow! What a great video! Superbly done. Have seen a lot on the origins of the Europeans peoples, but the Finno-Ugric remained a mystery until now.
Thank you, super interesting! I didn’t know all the details of all these groups moving around in central Asia, later becoming Iranians, Finns, Estonians, …
Thank you everyone for the feedback and kind words! I probably won't be able to respond to all the comments, so I will address some common questions and issues regarding the subject matter in this comment.
1. Questions about genetics i.e. "Why are Finns/Estonians/Hungarians mostly Indo-European genetically?"
As I stated in the video, the original Finno-Ugrians were a relatively small male-dominant group, and the more west they went (Finland, Estonia and Hungary being the western-most ends of the Finno-Ugric belt) the more they intermarried with various Indo-European groups, such as Indo-Iranians, Balts, Germanics and Slavs. There was no point in time at which 100% Asian Finno-Ugrians came to Finland and gave Finns their language. It was a gradual intermixing, taking place within thousands of years. It is not at all different from Indo-European migrations in this sense. Indo-European genes are also dominant (50+%) in regions where there was a smaller population of previous inhabitants such as Scandinavia and the British isles, meanwhile in Southern Europe and the Iranic and Indo-Aryan countries, the percentage of Indo-European DNA is smaller compared to the DNA inherited from previous inhabitants. Both Indo-Europeans and Finno-Ugrians left a strong impact on the male Y-DNA lines however. Around 60% of Finnish men and 40% of Estonian men carry Finno-Ugric Y-DNA haplogroup N1a. Ethnicity ofcourse is much more complex than just DNA or haplogroups, but let's just say that it is not some random happenstance of history that Estonians, Finns and Hungarians speak a Finno-Ugric language. Unfortunately the details of historic Finno-Ugric genetics are unclear, since there are very few genetic samples from Bronze and Iron Age Finno-Ugrians. If anyone in the comments is making big claims with specific numbers about Finno-Ugric genetics, take it with skepticism.
2. "You can't conflate language with genetics/people."
Well, you kinda can. I have yet to seen an example from history, the Bronze Age no less, where languages travelled completely independently from people. To begin with, I'm not sure what the point of this argument is, if it even is arguing for anything. Unfortunately you can't tell from the finds of Bronze Age individuals what language they spoke, but you can tell what their genetics were. I don't see a reason to make things so complicated that we must follow the genetics of a people completely separately from the language. Nor do I think it is wild to draw a connection between the appearance of Eastern-origined bronzeware, Siberian genes and Uralic languages, as many scientists have done before.
3. "You can't pinpoint the homelands of each group with archeological cultures."
For the most part, this is true. I purposefully didn't talk much about the later cultures that derived from Seima-Turbino, because a lot of them were last studied in the Soviet era, before archeogenetics. I added them as possible connections between Finno-Ugric subgroups and archeological finds, as linguists and archeologists alike have pinpointed the homelands of Finno-Ugric groups to these rough locations. Archeology has to be used together with genetics and linguistics to form the full image, which is what I attempted to do.
4. "You can't take all this with 100% certainty."
This is also true. Truth is that a period this long ago in history will never be fully understood, and as science develops so will our knowledge of these happenings. Perhaps in 10 years this video will be entirely outdated, who knows. But we should not let such uncertainties stop us from talking about these subjects and presenting them in an interesting way. My goal with this video was not to have a 3h presentation full of "what-ifs" and "probably-s" and "scientists have theorised-s", but rather to present the topic in a way that is simple, digestible and forms some sort of cohesive narrative in the viewer's mind. For that it is necessary to stylize and exaggerate some things and not focus too much on the uncertainties. Ofcourse for the curious minds, you can always read the original sources that I drew from which I wrote down in the description. I strongly encourage you to look into these topics yourself and absorb knowledge from all various fields such as genetics, archeology and linguistics.
5. Questions regarding Paleo-Europeans
Migrating Finno-Ugrians probably made limited contact with Paleo-Europeans, since most of them settled on the forest-steppe border previously inhabited by Indo-Europeans. Paleo-Europeans lived further north and a Paleo-European (particularly EHG) component has been found in the Komi people for example. It is also commonly agreed that Paleo-Europeans played a huge role in the formation of the Samis and that their languages have a strong influence from the hypothetical Paleo-Laplandic and Paleo-Lakelandic languages. I'm afraid though that neither Paleo-Europeans nor Samis are my expertise, so I can't provide more details at the moment.
6. "Where did Pre-Proto-Uralics live prior to arrival on the Altai mountains?"
According to current information, the Trans-Baikal region is the best bet. It seems to fit with the genetics, geography and archeology. But there will probably be new revelations in this topic in the coming years.
7. "This is anti-Aryan propaganda."
Yes.
Thanks for this great video! About Paleo-European influence on Uralics, see Ante Aikio's paper "Layers of Substrate Vocabulary in Western Uralic"
I kinda feel called out by points 2. 3. and 4. Almost as if they were directly referring to my comments. :)
As far as i know, we have examples of languages getting transferred to a different genetic population in the middle-east, namely the Semitic languages being inherited by new populations of the Levant and Mesopotamia, but of course as always, i might be wrong. Also it's easier to keep track of the linguistic history of the mentioned areas at this time, because a lot of them wrote, or started writing relatively soon after. Chalcolithic and bronze age northern Eurasians did not write, hence my skepticism towards making strong assertions about who spoke what. Either way take it easy, the people you spoke about in the video played a significant role in shaping European history without a doubt, whether or not all of them carried a Uralic language, or even if just some, and even if their language in reality is lost in time and it became a substrate in later languages.
To the subtle jab that i don't read about the topic at all: i do, i just don't find the assumptions 100% convincing and that's why i wrote what i did.
I also have an unorthodox view on the linguistics aspect by the way, as I've noticed quite a lot of etymologies within Hungarian, Germanic, Slavic and Iranic languages where very similar words in meaning and form are said to come from either Uralic or Indo-European seemingly randomly. If you want me to give some examples of the things i've noticed, i'll gladly write about them. To cut it short: I suspect either the two language families have been in contact for a very very long time to have evolved these cognates, or they might even be related. This suspicion isn't even an outlandish one by the way, as it has been historically theorized by many minds in the past much greater than mine. It just isn't the generally accepted one. Still though, i treat my observations with a healthy skepticism as well, because the etymology dictionaries too could be wrong and i am still just speculating about things that have not been attested in writing. Also we are talking about linguistics here. By it's nature this branch of science can not be as rigid and clear-cut as mathematics for example. There are regularities in it of course, but there are also plenty of irregular shifts within a language which really doesn't help, does it?
I also see a lot of comments theorizing a Uralic-Turkic link, but i have not researched that in-depth so i won't give my opinions. But i assume you can see how it's not an easy topic, as Uralics seem to be right at the crossroads and a part of so many Eurasian cultures and languages. :)
I am ethnic Chinese in Singapore who tested my Y-DNA and it belongs to Haplogroup N, initially I was very surprised because it is not at all common among modern Chinese populations :) Despite our relatively low frequency among modern East Asian populations we have a large diversity of basal subclades suggesting the origin of Haplogroup N-M231 was most likely indeed in northern East Asia (probably northern China where we have some 10,000 year old samples located in Shandong region). More recently Chinese research papers and DNA tests done on many ancient remains around northern China seem to suggest Haplogroup N was far more common in northern China than it was today, particularly around the Bohai Sea region; however at some point the rapid expansion of Haplogroup O from the south displaced and replaced much of the East Asian population such that today >80% of East Asians belong to Haplogroup O instead. That said however, the royal family of Zhou dynasty which was the longest and most influential dynasty in Chinese history also likely belongs to Haplogroup N1a2a, according to papers released by Chinese researchers, title 'The impacts of bronze age in the gene pool of Chinese: Insights from phylogeographics of Y-chromosomal haplogroup N1a2a-F1101'.
The initial differentiation location of N1a2a-F1101 and its most closely related branch, N1a2b-P43, a major lineage of Uralic-speaking populations in northern Eurasia, is likely the west part of northeast China. After ~4 thousand years of bottleneck effect period, haplgroup N1a2a-F1101 experienced continuous expansion during the Chalcolithic age (~ 4.5 kya to 4 kya) and Bronze age (~ 4 kya to 2.5 kya) in northern China. Ancient DNA evidence supported that this haplogroup is the lineage of ruling family of Zhou Dynasty (~ 3 kya-2.2 kya) of ancient China
@@Baso-sama Hi friend! I support the theory that uralic-altaic (finnic, ugric, turkic, hunnic, mongolic, koreanic, japonic) languages are originated from northeast asia, east asia (Liao river according to Martina Robbeets of Max Planck Institut). Moreover, I think these uralic-altaic languages are related to other southeast asian agglutinative languages and dene-caucasian languages. Additionally, I also think that indoeuropean languages have derived from intermixing between agglutinative (east) + old fusional (west) languages. I am not an expert in linguistics, but I wanted to share my findings matching with ydna genetics.
As I mentioned, I think such a connection is also supported by ydna genetics. If we look at ydna haplogroups we can see such distribution:
N - north asia, finnic, uralic, paleosiberian, siberian turkic, tungusic,
O - southeast asia, east asia, austronesian, austroasiatic, sinitic, koreanic, japonic,
P - southeast asia, northeast asia, siberia, philippinese, malaisian, siberian (altai) turkic, nivkh,
Q - northeast asia, americas, nadene/athabask, iroquoian, native american, aztecan, mesoamerican, andean, peruvian,
R - central asia, south asia, europe, middle east, uyghur turkic, karluk turkic, oghuz turkic (turkmen, turk, azerbaijani), balochi, punjabi etc. north indian, urdu, pashtun, kipchak turkic (kazakh, kirgiz, bashkir, tatar), belarusian, russian, ukrainian, permic, ugric, uralic, north caucasian, tyrrhenian, vasconic, saka/scythosiberian, scythian, celtic, italian, iberian, french, german, saxonian, britanian...
Vasjuganje (town in South-Siberia) - Vasjugan (river nereby) - Vasejõgi - Vaskenjoki (Copper/Bronze river)
A form of the word is still used in Hungarian with a changed meaning: "vas", which means iron in the current language.
Anteeksi, suomalaiset. Ma en tiennut, että "copper" on "kupari" suomeksi. Luulin että "vaski", kuin olen virolainen (eestiläinen) ja eestiksi on copper=vask.
I am Estonian. in Estonian, copper is "vask".
@@anutahemaa7564Se on vaski suomeksi.
@@anutahemaa7564 Vaski on myös vanha sana kuparille tai kupariseoksille, nykyään esiintyy esimerkiksi vaskipuhallin sanassa.
more like vasejuga eli vaskikoski
Greetings from Norway. Interesting video👍
Great video! Learned alot from this and can’t wait for the next one ❤
Mahtava ja kiinnostava video.👏🏼 Toivottavasti jatko-osa (tai osat) tulee pian!
Greetings from Finland! Excellent video! The information also aligns with my genetic heritage studies which is very nice to see! I'm half or more Karelian (R-CTS1211 haplogroup). Can't wait for part 2 and beyond. Keep up the great work :)
Facinating stuff! I am a Finnish teacher for foreigners. Mehiläinen (bee) and sata (hundred) are also one of the loan words from Iranian/Aryan Avesta language. Still the hundred meaning word is the same root word in Kurdish languages (sed), Farsi Persian (sad), Dari (sad) and Paštu (sal). I think cent come from the same word to Indo-European language, but I am not *sata prosenttia* sure.
Suta in Romanian , Sto in Russian .
Finno-ugrics spawned from snow and ice.
Literally just group of ancient proto proto samoyed men from siberia 4000 years ago that mixed with local european making the sami, mansi, khanty mixed race euro siberian people that some in southern areas then got assimilated in to volgan iranians and balts of estonia creating the finns and komis and such other white uralic speakers who live and look like indo euro/iranian pagans. Sami, mansi and khanty is the siberian euro mixed tribes that continued to live the siberian ways in northern rural areas withous adopting the farmer culture from south. Samoyedic people like nganasan and nenets are the proto uralic that staid in siberias side so they did not mix to european genetics.
@@Viso333 This is what the claypeople want you to believe.
Snow supremacy!
eskimos
Yes the ice cube people who never came from anywhere, had no history and conquered random parts of the world by beating them with some really smelly fish until they gave up their lands.
True story that should make it into a movie.
Were they originally "mongoloids"?
Tykättiin videosta, innolla odotan seuraavaa! Terveisiä Amerikasta.
I'm so glad for this neat summary of of a fascinatong topic which otherwise would be spread out across many rather dull research papers and articles.
What I would also love to know more about are the pre-Finno-Ugric inhabitants of Northern Europe, and how they might have influenced the Finnics and Sami who arrived later. The elusive "Paleo-Laplandic" and "Paleo-Lakelandic" speakers.
Great video, looking forward to the second part
Very excited for the next episode, glad I found this video.
This was a pretty neat video. A Lot of guesswork but still. Seen a few other videos about the subject where they constantly contradict themselves etc.
What a great video, filling a great gap in European history.
This was an extremely informative and interesting video. I am exited for the next part and hope you keep making these ancinent history related videos
Not exactly fully accurate though. Made it look like we are turkic horse men or something haha
The uralic original people were more of similar to inuit culturally. Google Ngansan and nenets people.
This is very informative video! Thanks a lot Estonian cousin.
I'm half Finnish and half Greek and i find this really interesting trying to understand my finnish heritage.
Thanks for the contribution to #TimelineOfMankind project (available on the twitter)
Voooi eeeeei, tämä oli osa 1 eikä osa 2 ole vielä olemassa! ΤΤΔΤΤ aga jah, video oli väga hea!
I'll be waiting for Pt.2 with interest.
Very fascinating topic. It would be interesting to track down the genetic makeup of each culture in order to see the progressive genesis of modern fino-ugrians as we know them today. Once again, we are lucky to live in an era where we can finaly answer such questions that remained mysteries until now.
Great video, I hope you will continue !
Thank you for an interesting and informative video.
Väga hästi tehtud video, väga hea et sa ka allikad välja tõid, sobiksid hästi Tartu Ülikooli
Aitäh Karl!
Very interesting, thank you for sharing this video 😎👍🏻
One of the best videos explaining the origins of the Finnic and Uralic peoples!
Can’t wait for pt 2! I’m mainly Latvian but supposedly Finnish as well. In reality I believe my ancestors were influenced by Livonian ethnicity. I know there are so few Livonians left, but we exist.
Latvians and Lithuanians have slightly more Y-DNA Haplogroup N1a (the typical Uralic / Finno-Ugric patrilineal marker) than R1a, despite speaking an Indo-European / Baltic language. And funnily enough for Estonians the reverse is true (they have slightly more R1a than N1a but they speak a Uralic / Finno-Ugric language).
What a video! Thank you very much!!
Love from Hungary. Great video!
nem genetikai rokonság…második: MI VAGYUNK.
Nagyon jó lett a videó.
@@markusmakela9380 Only speak for yourself! MANY Hungarians have Eszki dns.
Thanks for this interesting presentation!
Looking forward to the 2nd part!
Amazing video! Looking forward to the next one 😊
Interesting to see that porcas has remained almost entirely intact in Finnish nowadays written as porsas. I suspect it hasn't gone through many phonetic changes
Well, words that are constantly in use do not change. There has always been someone around to call a pig.
Põrsas in Estonian.
→ Põssa in toddlers tongue.
→ Põtsa for a chubby one
→ Possu for endearing diminutive.
→ Potsu for a cute one.
The alternative is "notsu" (making "norsu" bit funny).
@@KohaAlbert alternatively sika in Finnish, and possu is the "toddlers language" word for it here
@@topiheimola69 there's typically correspondence between toddler-tounge and diminutives (especially of endearing quality).
In Estonian, Possu has became pet's name.
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Pig or swine is siga (all previously provided are for piglets, but often used for a pig in general as well in toddlers tongue or as endearments).
"Notsu" has to do with the snoute.
Old pigs are called "kärss" (also the formal term for pig's snout)
A wonderful informative far too short video re Finno -Ugria culture/ history.The metallurgical skills applied to the arms/weapons is very impressive.🌺🤗🫶👍🖖
Wunderbar, meine balt-deutsche brüder, Jürgen von Goldburg 🎉
Das ist ein zupa-kool video mitt ein, hmm... Wie ich sagen? Teutonische qualität!! Eine epische Kreutzwald moment!!
The development of Bronze is one of the pivotal moments of human history. That it is the result of a merging of cultures where the raw materials are readily available makes perfect sense.
Thank you for the excellent video!
Your estonian accent makes me focus more on the video😂, even so great video and new suscriber
This was really cool, thanks for sharing. Do you plan to do more videos about finno-ugric history? Id love to see more like this, especially the hun empire and origins of the magyar
Surprisingly, it is a very good video!
Finno-Ugria fuck yeah!!! Cheers from Finland. One well made video. 👍
the joke is that the Finno-Ugric language was also spoken in today's Ukraine. The Finno-Ugric were once warriors, see the Hungarian kingdom. defeated Slavs Germans and created one of the largest kingdoms in Europe. So there is nothing to be ashamed of if someone speaks the Finno-Ugric language
Interesting story. Although there is still much debate on whether the Corded Ware or the Yamnaya were Indo-European at all. So defining what the Finno-Ugrians had as culture based on what the Indo-Europeans are supposed to have had is a bit shaky.
Very good job! Thank You!👍🏻
Subscribed because of this quality video
Useful video on a topic that gets very little attention. One problem: the map you use is zoomed in so far on the massive land mass of Eurasia that it is extremely difficult to understand where these blobs are actually located.
Superb! Keep up the good work.
Ooohh, that's interesting!!! Can't wait for the Iron episode! ^_^
Very nice video explaining bronze age cultural shifts, although i personally would be a bit more careful with assuming which culture spoke what language. I think it's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate the homeland of each language based on genetics and cultural shifts, unless we subscribe to a diffusionist view and assume languages can not be transferred without genetics. That aside, we wouldn't have these amazing stories if we didn't take the liberty to assume such things, so it's all good. :)
Exactly. It is impossible to see language from archaeological or genetic records.
While language can be and often is transferred separately from genetics or material culture, we can easily see in the world of even today that language has a significant connection to or correlation with those things. Additionally, things never come from nowhere in this world. We know that proto-Uralic came to the Volga-Ural area somehow, so we can make hypotheses for the process from available pieces of evidence such as genetics, archaeology, historical records or even climatology. Comparing and analyzing different hypotheses, we can deduce the most likely explanations for the phenomena we are trying to explain, such as the existence of certain language groups today.
So, based on this I would disagree with your seeming "we don't know many things with absolute certainty, therefore we know nothing" stance. It is a collection of evidence-based deductions which together builds the theory, even if our confidence in singular pieces of the theory might be on the level of a coin flip (which is much higher than 0%!). The likelihood is very low that all or most of the numerous "coin flip" pieces of evidence that support the theory would be false. Basically you would need to present a better (i.e., more likely) explanation that fits the pieces of evidence that we have in order to discredit the theory.
@@hyhhy as i said: guessing these things is all good, that's how we get stories. it just makes me smile whenever people talk about "uralic genes" and whatnot with so much certainty as if they were talking about whether or not the earth is flat. :)
As Finnish person, I really like this video👍
I would love if you would do a Hungarian prehistory part as well, how they emerged according to newest archaeological and archaeogenetical data.
Didn't connect your name to Estonia at first, but then I remembered song from the master, Juice Leskinen, song name "Jyrki-boy":
"Jyrki, Jyrki, älä tyrki, (Jyrki, Jyrki, don't push others over)
Jyrki, tee joskus miehen työ (J, do the man's job, at least sometimes)
Jyrki, Jyrki,
Älä sanojasi syö" (Don't eat your words)
All power to Jyrki's all over the world! There are so much between Estonians and Finns we haven't even realized culturally. Most of it's hilarious as it has been long time separating us, and the mishaps between the languages can be quite harsh, but we can laugh at them and those conversations are the funniest new revelations usually.
fantastic video bro. Awesome!
Amazing video man 🙏
amazing video. well edited and lot of important info
I saw your posts on twitter years ago . Great video .
Very interesting.
I have heard before that the blacksmiths in Altai region were turkic.
Don't buy into this crap. I'm Hungarian and turan. My ancestors came from altai not Russia.
@@JanosBanics Another Hungarian coping that he is related to "fish smelling berry pickers of the forest" and not Turkic conquerors of the entire globe whose language is the origin of all languages ever.
The comments under this subthread are unhinged. 😅
@@jokemon9547 'kongar' was the endonym of the pecheneg master tribe, who never spoke uralic of finnougric languages... still a popular given name in Tuva (who are pre-turkomongolic tho)... in the early medieval church destroyed every trace of runiform literacy here so its unsure how the average people called themselves (magyar/megyer was name of only 1 tribe from the 7, or possibly 10) and neighbouring already latinized people used "ugros"... the "hungaros" name mustve caught on with the first feudal king Vajk (walach?)/István and his dynasty the Árpáds who prly descended from pechenegs and a khazar princess...
@@jokemon9547 don't listen to these crazies. Sadly there is a massive psyop being circulated in Hungarian boomer circles and they just simply can not follow the latest studies of archeology, genetics and linguistics. I'd say though that most people have a similarly flawed understanding of the formation of peoples, but that's out of the scope of this comment.
Finno-Urgic people mentioned!
Meeting at the Sintashta trade square!
Now we need Udmurtian shamanic woodGods.
Praise Joškar-Ola, faunareligion in Mari.
Weirdly Uralic languages also have lots of loan words from the proto-indo-european language and vice versa. That's because uralic languages already existed in the forest belt of northern eurasia at least as early as proto-indo-european. And since the northern forest belt of eurasia was so unchanging for so long, the Uralic languages have loan words from practically every language that ever bordered the forest belt in history. Also, the loan words and genetic continuity until russian expansions in early modern times alone demonstrate that the uralic languages are either as old or older than the proto-indo-european language. Probably the only confusing part of the history of the uralic peoples is that the area of the north eurasian forest belt is so vast that there almost always was a spectrum of gradually changing material culture and genetics from finland to east siberia even though they clearly were all connected and very similar. for example, finland and northern scandinavia, unlike the rest of europe got their ceramics and early farming species from china or around that area around 5000bc. That's also why the peoples of finland have always had a few percent of east asian dna in them even in the earliest findings from 6000bc even though those hundreds of findings from 6000bc were the first known people to have have all the major genes for white skin and blonde hair (slc24a5, slc45a2, kitlg and tyrp1).
Hearing your accent doubled my testosterone levels just now
It's incredibly cute how you play up your accent to an almost unbelievable degree
Waske - Finnish cognate word is vaski - used alongside the loanword pronssi.
now this video is awesome. and i admire your dedication, but i do have some issues.
i think you should cite your sources inside the video if possible. makes it easier to fact check and makes the info even more reliable. the fact that you are even citing them in the description makes you much better than most youtube history channels!
this is a bit pedantic of me but, please make the whooshing sounds are quieter or non-existant. i know which channel youve gotten inspiration from for that and the mouth talking of the drawings. but its better if these images appear on screen quietly. these drawings are very good however! excited to see more.
i think some of this info is outdated. west, central and east uralic and such...
more elaboration on how scientists have figured out these things would also be nice (perhaps an entire video on this topic?)
im excited for more videos from you. good luck on your future endeavours!
also tarandkalmed!! when discussing burial rituals you forgot to mention tarand! and spirit boats and such...
Very informative, very epic.
Great video! Please make a follow up video
Completely off-topic but... If us Finns have "rallienglanti", the accent Estonians have in their spoken english is even more distinguishable. And I love it! :D
To be fair, his accent really isn't a generic estonian one, it's quite idiosyncratic.
Fellow Estonian here, and I also would say that his accent is not typical for Estonians. It's a bit rough and Slavic sounding to me, almost like his English teacher was Russian or something. I'm not saying that as an insult or anything - it's just an observation. Estonia's former president Kersti Kaljulaid is a prime example of a typical Estonian accent, at least in my opinion. She doesn't even try to speak in a British or American accent.
My suggestion is not using the SWOOOSH sound effect for every single time something on the screen moves. Very distracting.
Otherwise great video, sources would be nice at the end or desc.
And, lastly, what about Liao river valley civilization?
Thank you for the feedback. I put the sources in the description, but UA-cam doesn't allow links so you will have to find them yourself. The connection between Liao river civilization and Uralic people is still a mystery, since none of the early Liao cultures have been tested genetically and it is difficult to trace back Uralics further from 2200BC.
@@fugricjurg Thank you.
@@fugricjurg I believe at some point the Y-DNA remains for Liao civilisation will be re-tested for the exact Y-DNA subclade and published. It just happened to the samples from Dawenkou culture (Shandong) which were first tested several years ago and gave a very vague result of Haplogroup K (xO) and N. Many samples were re-tested and shows that Dawenkou culture remains mainly belong to Haplogroup N1b1-CTS582>N1b1b-CTS962 (which is my Y-lineage branch and is more common in East Asia) or N1b1a-L727. Something interesting about some of these remains at Dawenkou (particularly Jiaojia archaeological site) is the extraordinary height of these neolithic peoples, some males measuring up to 1.9m which is very tall even for modern standards, even more so for the neolithic era. Chinese researchers have actually been going around testing many ancient historical and prehistoric remains in China, and their ability to test for more exact subclades has improved tremendously over the past several years. I am also paying close attention to their progress.
Based on some of the vague results for Liao civilisation so far, it seems more likely that Liao civilisation could also predominantly belong to Haplogroup N1b-F2930 which is a more East Asian branch than a Finno-Ugric branch (N1a). However in northern Hebei (Jiangjialiang archaeological site) which is just nearby there were many old samples belonging to Haplogroup N1a1-TAT. The Zhou dynasty royal family also most likely belongs to Haplogroup N1a2-F1101 which is the sibling branch common among Samoyedic and Ugric peoples. This suggests that the area has a high diversity of Haplogroup N subclades and future digging in that area could produce some more very interesting evidence.
Let me know if you're interested to connect (prefer Instagram).
Great video!
I was literally thinking about this for the last 2 days lol
Kiitos
Words like porćas, kečrä, and waśke can't even be reconstructed to Proto-Uralic (see e.g. Aikio 2022, 2015; Holopainen 2019). Agriculture, animal husbandry, and metallurgy are not found in the Proto-Uralic lexicon: They were certainly not inherited traditions from the Altai. I also have no idea why the Proto-Uralic/Finno-Ugric speaker is depicted as a vaguely Turko-Mongol horseman: There is no Proto-Uralic word for 'horse'. Zeng et al. 2023 discusses that the Proto-Uralic genome would have migrated westward into European lands associated with Seima-Turbino, which is not the same as Seima-Turbino originating from Proto-Uralic speakers (this consideration further discussed in e.g. Häkkinen 2023). The phylogenetics, cultural associations, and claims of epic wars presented in this video are without proper academic basis. You could have devoted time to discussing the ample vocabulary for trees, bodies of water, types of fish, nautical terms, etc. that were fundamental to Proto-Uralic communities, instead of focusing on a singular, definitive statement that Uralic ~ "Finno-Ugric" = Seima-Turbino expansion. I would recommend spending more time following the publications of current Uralic etymologists before revisiting such early phases of Uralic pre-history, as one misinterpretation of the evidence can result in an entire theory/project becoming inaccurate (lest we forget the fate of Carlos Quiles).
Very simialiar words in 4:40. Porcas=Porsas nowadays, kecrä=kehruu (not used anymore) pejmä=piimä (sour milk.)
kehruu looks more like hungarian kerék, which has a finno-ugric root and not iranic. but then we have many such cases where the indo-european and the uralic roots are so similar to eachother that if it happened in the case of any other two language families, people would start to think they had a common ancestor.
Love from Gurjistan
Thank you for this well presented and grounded video of the history of the Proto-Finnic empire. It really evoked some nostalgic antedeluvian feelings in me.
Hey mate great video. I'm planning visiting estonia and finland this december and I've been learning their history. I read up somewhere that finns (uralic finns) got into finland territory during neolithic, and that in calcolithic and bronze age the usage of bronze was limited due to their limited exposure to the metals, since they were in the corner in the world. Is this false? It looks very distinct to what you just showed here. Btw, I love the tocharian mention.
This is false and outdated. It was thought during the Soviet era.
Subs from Finland.
Väga hea ülevaatlik video. Vinget asja ajad! Kas Novgorodi rahvaste lääne-uurali päritolu kohta ka uurinud oled? Tõenäoliselt oli too riik enamuses lääne-uurali keelne (tšuudi keeled, merja, läänemeresoome). Oleks huvitav täpsemalt teada.
Look. I like the narative. It could be true to an unknown level. It is definitely worth watching. I have no tools to determin the genetic side of the picture. Might i ask about the matriaxchic DNA? although i already suspect it is mostly yhaploed culture,..
6:09 It is a bit misleading to put it this way. Cremation goes in and out of fashion (at least in Finland). In the early iron age full body burials are prevalent, with cremation coming back into play at least as late as the viking period.
Whenever you get to finns in a separate video, I'd recommend "Muinaisuutemme jäljet" by Georg Haggren et al. Unfortunately, it seems to only have a finnish version, but it is a nice base foundation on finnish pre-history and early historical period.
High quality!
Finally some Fugric content!