Scouting Loses games on Malinovka
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- Опубліковано 18 гру 2024
- Hey, so this video isn't set in stone or anything. This is what I've found, obviously there are exceptions to everything, but in my opinion the team who sends a scout field on this map basically gives up the hill.
Curious to know what everyone else thinks.
I read the title of this video and thought it was a troll title or you were crazy. Watching this video made me feel like a fool because I would NEVER have thought about it the way you do strategically. Very good video and I will no longer scout on Malinovka. The logic of your advice is sound and very reasonable. I will try to think more outside the box with other maps strategically from now on as well and try to think of more effective strats.
Cheers, Scott
Cheers. :)
You play on NA?
Yea, NA west typically
Oh, awesome. Maybe we could play together sometime for a little bit and you could give me some tips? I don't think I'm a bad player, but I would like to improve more. Currently sitting at 1400 WN8 and 1950 recent.
I think the premise is flawed. Scouting info is always good.
The trouble here is that the wrong tanks-i.e. Heavies and Mediums- are stopping to shoot.
Scouting this map *should* give artillery and TD's plenty of opportunity to whittle down the tanks trying to take hill, and give info to the team, which is great.
But the Brawlers of the team still needs to press hill asap, to gain map control.
So by not scouting, you're sacrificing valuable info and shooting opportunities, to cater to the bad players on your team.
But... if you think that your team will stall the advance to get opportunistic shots, then yes, it may be worth not scouting, which is pretty sad.
Another drinking game: A shot for everytime Lemming says whatnot
Please no, I`ve been trying to cut back...
lolol
its a canadian thing to say dude... that, and a-boot :)
Id like to know, do I say aboot?
I dont think so... but its definitely Canadian. I think I heard you say it once maybe? Idk... but if anyone has seen south park, then you'd know "a-boot" is pretty damn funny... Almost as funny as the one and only road you guys have up there. :D :D :D
A lot of times I feel like If I'm playing a light tank I _have_ to scout, which isn't true, thanks for helping me realize that.
.Teammates block you at the beginning, then later they call you a noob, because u did not make to your spotting bush(etc.) and play like a medium.
.When your team has a good scout- all other players are fucking bots, they can not hit anyone. Or vice versa.
LT life...
3:35 - "I'm not gonna say his name..." - *Looks to the chat, sees turretpunch[SSYM]*
LR your videos have real depth, they are first-rate educational material. Must be as I am improving most unexpectedly as a consequence of watching them - thank you for everything XD
Great video man! Keep up the good work! I really enjoy those map tactic videos, they helped me a lot.
Lemming the 1390's name is right there on the left side when you say you don't want to mention his name lol.
im good at youtube ^_^
And when you mention E5, that he's not a bad player but could have done lot better, also appears his name in chat, jajajajaj
Edit: Nice vid anyways lemming, learning something from every video, you do really well :)
This guy is a completely clueless. It's sad people listen just because of WN8. He is the typical WN8 farmer. Never plays for the team, it's all about him. Scouting done right wins games on this map. He tries to explain poor play on various players by his nonsense ideas.
March Fifth lol ya its in chat
@@gamerclownz2783 spotting done right? Spotting and finding a retarded team out in the open, sure ill settle for that. But generally hes right
I disagree. The entire point is based on "when a player sees a tank they will stop to shoot at it". This applies to poor players. A decent HT player knows the hill is needed and knows the speed of their tank. You can argue that you won't find many decent HT players even in tier 10 but that just ignores what is the correct play.
More importantly I think this totally ignores the potential of the TDs on your team. If the TDs are ready and you have a good LT then you stand a chance to not only take down enemy HP but maybe even a tank in the first 30 seconds. Map position is important but most games are won by doing more damage than the other guy. If you don't have an LT make that scout run then you guarantee your TDs cannot do that initial burst damage. It's potential damage that you can't get just because you don't think you can trust the HTs to ignore and climb.
To me the worst part of this map is that it seems like the NW spawn (that you had) cannot reach the critical point of A0 before the south spawn if both teams drive at full speed. If the south spawn HT reaches A0 it has a huge advantage since the A line slopes down to the west. What typically seems to happen is the NW spawn tanks then lose health as they retreat back down the A line slope. Arty can change this a bit but getting to that A0 corner first seems like the key and one spawn seems to be able to do that easily.
I think the real lesson is HTs need to not stop on the way up the hill, which I agree with. All tanks also need to hug the edge of the map and avoid getting sniped/spotted as they drive up. I'm amazed how many people keep making that mistake.
I concur, LemmingRush just assumes that everyone is a shitter in pubs xd
mark houghton no
Assumption that majority of players are on autopilot, drunk or both is sound ;) I would say that most of the times people will stop in the middle of a field, with no cover because there is something lit up 400m away. From what You say it seems that You have good awarenes and now what to do. That's uncommon I would say.
The "correct play" is whatever gives you, as a solo queuer, the highest probability of winning. If by scouting you lower your probability of winning, even if it is theoretically sound, it is no longer the correct play. When I play, I do not want to make the optimal play in every situation; I want to do whatever gives me the best chance to win the game. You don't try to defend a flank by yourself when your team is lemming training do you? Even though ideally you want to help defend the open flank, doing it by yourself is not the "correct play" as it lowers you chances of winning the match. If however, you were platooned up in strongholds with competent clan members then you would be able to scout and instead increase your probability of winning, thereby making it the correct play.
it is a correct assumption because most players are shit.
Typically in an average game you are going to get 10 shitters, 2-3 decent players, and 2-3 really good players.
And if you only count the players using HTs what you are going to find is that it's a class shitters gravitate towards relatively often, so in an average game you are going to see 80-90% of people using HTs being retarded.
You have completely changed my mind on how to run mediums/light tanks on this map. I have always had a decent success rate scouting the "standard" areas and getting early damage and assisted damage, but you are absolutely correct in that it stops the big guns/armor from making it to the top of the hill. Far too many matches have been spent on me running around like a mad man trying to mop up opposing HTs b/c their team won the hill.
Another great video, I 100% agree with your strategy on the hill and on the whole team stopping to take shots lit up by a scout, I call that "Chasing the Rabbit".
Great videos, keep them coming!
Thanks
Your videos are always dead on, keep up the good work. The hill is very important to get to the top first. Thanks for your input on that map.
When I actually thought about it, your logic makes sence! I will try it out and find for myself though. Thank you for bringing an alternate point of view regarding how to play the map!
Noice LR, So many different ways to look at this map and based on your team, certain ways to use this map. Good video! keep it up LR o7
Great assessment of the actual effect scouting has on pub matches. Players stopping to farm damage, not even realizing they are losing hill
Excellent explanation on map strategics, would love to see more on other maps!!!
As a scout I couldn't agree more. You spot right off the bat & your team loses the hill simply by trying to kill the red team instead of moving up to the hill. I think we might have to wait to scout for at least a minute until our team is off the base.
As for the salt... Venting never helps it always makes things worse so don't do it, & basically when you look at it, you will never fix stupid by bitching at it. & the sooner I understand this fact the better off I will be.
Love your work Lemming, please don't stop for long it has taught me a TON.
You're totally tight. Ive seen this so many times where your heavy's just reflexively stop and camp to shoot at targets and totally blow the match. Its good that you did this.
It is interesting that I reached that same conclusion like 2 days before you posted this video. I stayed away from the game for a long time and recently came back. After scouting myself and seeing my team stopping to fire when the enemy team was desperately trying to get safe and push hill was a small hint. But I really understood what was actually happening when I was playing my E4 and I was wasting time trying to get shots with this new render range. Before, I could easily get shots from the southeast spawn, but with the new circle render range, I was seeing myself trying to get into a dangerous position to even see the enemies lit. While the enemy was pushing hill, we were wasting time trying to get shots. Then it really clicked and I realized that initial scouting is bad.
BAD scouting, like going out in the field like the RU251 loses games on malinovka. GOOD scouting, like going to the D8ish area is the only thing that wins it.
Scouting the field is NEVER good (as we saw in your replays). All it accomplishes is spotting the heavies crossing briefly and anyone who goes alongside the water.
Heres a 10000 combined damage game i did, mostly spotting damage. The only reason we won this game was because i was aggressively spotting in the proper positions for the map.
wotreplays.com/site/3536577#teams
Sorry lemming, normally i agree with you. But you can SEE that the only reason you were able to shoot their tanks below the hill in the first replay was because of the bulldog and you both in the lightweights going where scouts SHOULD go.
Take my like. I have shitload amount of scouting on malinovka. most of the games are always win, specially from that base.
wotreplays.com/site/index/version/55,54,53,50,51,49,48,46,44,43,41,39,38,37,36,35,34,32,31,30,29,28,27,26,25,24,23,22,16,14,15,13,19,18,20,17,21,47,40,52,42,33,45/player/Steve_Mc_Gregory/map/2/sort/uploaded_at.desc/
I always knew we had to take the hill however, I never thought about the scouting issue. Damn, as always you were dead on the money. Awesome video indeed. Thank you!!!
Very good advice, the importance of the hilll on Malinovka can not be overstated. It amazes me when I see my team not wanting to contest it and just let the enemy take it. I hate it because to me pushing the hill is a must but it forces me to fall back if I don't have needed support to take it. Kind of what happened to you in second replay.
Really good video again :)
I`ll stop stopping in my heavies to take those early shots now.
I found your channel yesterday :) and the content is really good! Keep it up :)
I myself don't play scouts, but my good friends win games scouting the enemy team's heavies and TD's before they go to the hill. I disagree saying that you shouldn't scout on Malinovka, but a very strongly agree that your strat is very well thought out, and it a great alternative to spotting for a scout. Thanks for the great video, and keep up the great work!
I have actually thought this myself before, you get someone scouting and then everyone drops what they're doing and just sits there. Nice to know someone else thinks this too :)
Scouting on Malinovka *controls* the game. It's one of the maps where the old tier 5 scouts (the Chaffee in particular) controlled the entire flow. It was great.
Really interesting points, competely agree with you. The lights spotting all the heavies at the beginning is not useful, as your tanks are not in a good position to actually shoot them and deal significant amount of damage, compared to going up the hill to take map control.
You could maybe use this strat in CW/SH where the meta is completely different, but it doesn't work on randoms.
Really informative as always, you are definately becoming one of the better strategists/pub players that do youtube right now. Thanks for the great content!
Lemmingrush "IT'S OVER ANAKIN, I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND"
I have to say - I was skeptical when I saw the title... but I did it in a lower tier game (a full tier 6 game and I was playing Medium) - and also instead of sniping at the start I just went on the hill and was able to farm quite good dmg - thx for the video... pls do more like this!
Chears
Good video. My only quibble is the title. I don't think scouting, per se, loses games, it's the response to the spotting. There are a couple maps like this where the reaction to early lights (i.e., stopping and sniping) can surrender map control that really puts the team in a hole. Sniping heavies, in particular, can be really bad.
I totally agree with your premise, though. Thanks for the video LR.
Hey man, I highly respect what you are saying and I'm trying to encourage people to fight like that on Malinovka. Also, when you need 7 or 8k spot, this is kinda only map where you can do it while actually sitting in the bush, and it will be successful most of the times.
without you having to make this video i figured this was the meta for some time but since im not an amazing player i usually dont care. but you clear all my ideas up and i probably will change up how i scout on that map. thanks. ps i never use those ridiculous scout positions that you mentioned are useless. i prefer to use the ridge line at e8.
This map definitely has many issues, and this video illustrates one of the biggest. When your team camps the base on this map, you give up the win, most times.
Legit I thought the title was sarcastic. I always wondered how sometimes I can either lose or win by a landslide on this map, and now it all makes sense. I never put 2 and 2 together before.
Very good analysis but I would say that scouting in mid tiers does work more often on Mal. This is definitely how the game plays at high tiers though.
Great vid as always Lemming!
D5 or F7, sure. Field rush isn't very clever and the swamp is high risk.
TRUE! I'm normally the scout and see the loss happen. In lower tiers your team will stop and fire. They will then be spotted as well. Your assistance damage flies up but you lose as many tanks as the enemy. 3k combined loss ace tanker at T5 yesterday.
Very interesting replay strategy on Malinovka, will definitely be trying to employ what you have mentioned and hopefully get better results than just being frag bait.
Good video and it is something to take to heart when it comes to tactics while playing this map.
Do you feel the same way regarding Lakeville? Generally, I've noticed that the entire team will stop to take shot when a scout heads down the middle road. Personally, I scout the rim of the lake and head back through the town, if the team stops, they're far enough along that they don't do it in the open and it still gives lights on middle road targets.
A decent scout will spot their heavies on the way to town, then when friendlies are further out they can shoot the light on the middle road.
with lakeville though the ht's don't have far to reach the town after shooting its only if they sit in the open and get shot themselves
azaz129 the city isnt that important in lakeville compared to the hill on malinovka,
Robinie killer if not city than which part? Valley have soft terrain, terrible chokepoint and is cut out from other lines. Middle is to small for majority of players and You cannot win by only pushing mid.
Teodor Sobczak a hill is a ventagepoint, you can still win lakeville with only having the top north or top south part
I love it when HT's LARP as TD's and camp at spwan, its adorable.
Finally someone said that out loud. I wouldn't be so strongly agains early scouting as You are, but at the end there are 14 other people on our team and good players have to think about managing teammates. I always thought that early, PASSIVE scoting is bad because everyone stops and stays in the middle of nowhere. But if scout just spots and go this gives team a vision and don't slow teammates down to much.
That is also an argument to install xvm for advanced crowd control - if team looks like ketchup You don't spot, but if there are better players You can ask in chat to get to hill quick.
Great material and QB was wrong on the other one ;P
This has been my same exact thought about this map. I used to scout the field to give my team the information of what they would fight on the hill. I would hope they would use my spotting as a guide on what they need to do to win hill. Eventually I learned that my team would stop and try to shoot and end up loosing the hill exactly like you show. I've argued with my clan mates about this a lot and 9 times out of 10 I'm right.
As usual, very good video. My comments are: 1) If a scout lights fast enough the enemy approaching hill, then they should not be able to take hill because they are lit and being shot at. 2) Hill might not be as important, even in the video you share to explain your interpretation, you lose the hill and yet win the game. 3) If you go to hill in your light tank to spot their heavies before they can get to the hill, well, then you are actually scouting, just from the hill. My two cents. :)
You certainly CAN scout effectively if you’re careful not to get spotted, but that involves being pretty passive and relies on folks being in position to both shoot & be shot, so it’s rather hit and miss. I love your analysis, it seems like a generally higher-percentage strategy that’s less team-reliant.
Lol hi, I'm in the 103-0, didn't know you were gonna make a vid on this match since it was a roflstomp
That's exactly why you never go spotting on campinovka except if you only care about the spotting mission and don't mind losing
Ive always known it. And it is high time for someone with a voice that people will listen to finally points out the facts
I think it depends on the game mode too, when on encounter rather than standard battle, it can be very useful as you're capable of spotting tanks as they climb the hill
Nice video, another thing that would be interesting to cover is dealing with Russian gun depression. I just got the A-43 as I am going down the Russian medium line, and gun depression is a major issue
With arties, were you defended hill on second video (E0 other side) you just need two TDs (not even a scout neeed to spot given the small distance) and hill has not so big importance, you can kill all heavies up there.
The early scouting I do is bushes F2 (midde of the field), that will not our HT to stop and shoot, only the TDs that are "camping" base shooting across the field.
And about scouting C8 area, it is needed or else they can send MT or LT to get behind our boys up hill and get a cross fire. Maybe, as you say, not too early in the game, but it is needed.
Thanks for the video.
I don't even have to watch this video to know that initial scouting completely kills you team leaving spawn. This happens almost every time I play this map..
I agree on your conclusion, especially on this map. If you light up enemy tanks your own team stops to shoot at them. On this map it means they are not driving towards the hill.
Thanks for the good explanation. This is not one of my favorite maps to play on lower tier tanks that do not have good speed. Once you get in a position where you are being shot at down hill, you are at an extreme disadvantage as you pointed out. It is best to take the hill as fast as possible.
Since i started played scouts it didnt took long realize that. For that reason im usually do only early information spot by quick peek and then trying spot in sectors, so i control whats spoted and when i feel it necessary.
Other thing is importance of scouts on map like Malinovka or Prokhorovka, where having scout in late game is crucial factor to win. This forward spot bushes are easy to predict and if you get lit, you have like 99.9% chance to die. Its generally better counter as scout to prevent enemy from using them then trying do same(nice example is Lakeville south spawn, countering enemy tanks trying spot from road). Cautious approach gives you better chance to influence game later on, when you need spot that tanks and TDs sitting back, helping break lines. In that case is alive scout priceless for your team.
Good Point LR, scouting can slow your team down to take shots. But it depends on what tier tanks, your in , how many heavy or medium tanks and which side sends the scout to middle. If a scout goes from the south buidings and spots all the enemy on the open side, they can often kill several tanks early and win. If a scout goes to middle from the north open to scout the side with buidlngs for cover, yeah they slow down, the enemy teams can get to hill first and win.
What about Encounter?!
Like, when you are on the side the enemy team was in your video, in most of my games I play aggressively, spot everyone going hill whilst they take damage, also spotting everyone sniping at the church and sometimes aggressive bush on the side you were and then proceed to fall into the water by turning left, just proxy anyone approaching in the next minutes. and damaging whenever the chance appears.
Again, what you said applies in any other situation other than this special one and I totally agree.
Therefore, in the current meta we meet 50%+ TDs for some reason and HT brawl locations became win-able even when you are in a MT. or simply unimportant, as immediately as they push, TDs are there to punish them.
Interesting point of view. But it's similar to what you said in your other video about LTs. It's more important to spot in late game than try hard to spot at the beginning. Can't wait to try this out.
Looking forward on the Vid on how to bait shots into your tracks, especially which tanks can do it... I use it sometimes, but dont really know why or how it works xD
Lemming tell me, how you do this, that you have so ballanced games? Everytime I see your replay it's maximum 3-4 tanks difference between the teams. In my games it's almost always 2 situations: I suck [like die early od do nothing to the game] and we win like 10:0 or [about 75% of my games] I do +/- OK, sometimes really good, but almost always we loose like 14:0, 10:0, 8:0... I don't remember a game with say 3 against 3 tanks at the end... It's always like huuuge overwhelming destruction of one side.... I'm not any good player, an average one, but I play for a long time and I can't learn more succesful playing. I like scouting, but most of the time all my team dies so fast i have noone to shoot at my spotted targets. When I play meds I mostly die early [I have this issu - lack of patience :)]... I live longer in TD, but then again... all team dies and leaves me and arty against 8 enemies... I don't know how to improve my gameplay yet...
"Don't scout on this map" then 2 minutes later "I'm just waiting on somebody to scout"
I'm a greedy scout so I always just try farm spot damage on this map- even though I was aware of this (you have to be a bit like a shepherd at times in your lights I guess :p) - but from a game winning perspective I completely agree. I think for this reason D7 is a better scout position for this map on the whole because it allows you to counter scout and provide spots going up the hill (provided you have a good hill).
However I would like to add this depends on mm more than anything- having lots of tds/ arty makes early spots more valuable since the team will likely camp anyway in this case.
"im not gonna show the 1390s name" *as the 1390s name shows up in chat*
It's a scouting curse for sure, I always want to find out where people are deploying, at the same time the rest of the team needs to realize to get into position first before you go after targets, but that doesn't happen often. Usually it goes down like how you say.
I really love scouting at this map. I always get something like 6k spotting and 2k dmg
K H no more than 50% winrate on the map :)
I tend to agree. I feel like the times I get early spotting damage on Malinovka, my team usually loses, unless it's *massive* free damage that's sets the red team back so far they can't recover.
i completely agree with you. And i think is even worse on malinovka encounter east spawn when you spot the C5 area, all tanks climbing the hill will stop to shoot and then get killed
Excellent Video, thank you Lemming
can u do a video on playing lts in the paris map?
The video is insightful but I have to disagree on the 'logic'.
1) If the problem is heavies stopping to shoot, then heavies need to learn discipline, map-awareness etc. Having a scout get eyes up on initial deployment by the enemy team can help your team make informed decisions.
2) Is the problem necessarily 'heavies stopping to shoot', or is the problem camping heavies who should be using their tracks more. I think half the player base could dig up mind-numbing replays of games where heavies have sat back then demanded light tanks to spot the field. To restate, often the problem is heavies (or others) camping too hard, lights are forced to adapt AND get hardwired to play like this in future. This happens on other maps too.
3)Why do we see these 'aberrant' or 'otherwise lacking in mental capacity' plays? Well, in a public match, even with a chat option, players are having to act in their own self-interest whilst making forward predictions about the actions of their allies and responding to events as they unfold. Real-time in game calculations get swerved by 'psychic costs'. This sometimes results in a snowballing effect: one or two donkeys park at the back and start barking orders and everybody else decides 'yeah, screw this, I'm not being the meat shield at the front for these donkeys/parasites' etc. The solution...well, I can't be 100% sure...that's a longer discussion to be hard about win8 farming, the pressure caused by stat bullying etc.
4)Somebody else already mentioned this, I will echo it here as it relates to point 2 or 3. On the EU server, if you don't scout hard and fast you will get teamkilled, inundated with hate mail, reported maliciously. Bossing people around in chat only amplifies the spiral of toxicity. If it works for you....well, it might be because people know you and lick your stats. Most people risk getting told to screw themselves up the arse with a shovel if they try and dictate meta to their team.
So, yes, insightful....though your evidence is somewhat positive biased as opposed to finding exceptions that challenge the rule. People here do remember what logic and science actually are, right? I'd even go so far as to say that your tips will work. It won't fix the problem though, and you might even see knock-on aberrations in the meta if people started following this en masse. At the end of the day, public matches are still team play based. If behaviour constantly gears on individuals exploiting their team for personal gain or having pretences of superiority and trying to 'psyche' their team into being herded, it can only be a downward spiral.
Kudos for screening in that last replay though. Many wouldn't have, preferring to stay alive and farm damage longer even if it means throwing the win. Anyways, good vid, ass kicked.....over and out and....WHATNOT.
".....This amx, Im not going to show his name..."(his name in chat - lol) good video dude! silly heavies, an early scout helps define what the hill will be expectingbut in pubs it's too much information.
I have noticed this, it doesn't stop me scouting, but if I'm in a heavy, I discipline myself not to stop, but to stay unspotted and get up the hill. it also depends on the scouting, if it's deep enough, and there is people on my team who know how the view range mechanics work, all good, that's a big ask though, so in general I agree with the main point here.
Here is the real scoop. If you are on the west side spawn, in a heavy, get your ass as far away from the field as possible. There are no hiding places other than getting far back and heading up the hill. If they get a scout in the middle you will be picked apart before you get very far. So both teams should get scouts into the middle early. To take out the other team's scout. Then there are those rises along the diagonal of the swamp. Pepper the crap out of them to make scouts duck. Those are usually TDs. But the flaw to this map is that the south spawn has a butt load of cover and the north does not. So scouts from the north aren't as effective as scouts from the south.
But MOST of the heavies need to immediately head to the hill no matter which side. Then distances show the North spawn should get there first.
When he saw that the bulldog is a girl he immediately joined a platoon with her😂😂
where do you go in a heavy on firey assailant please make a video on this.
one problem of early spots on Malinovka is that the bad players (especially from the southern spawn) tend to stay in base, no matter the tank they're driving.
if your team is full of TDs then the early spots in the middle bush are fine, since they won't be moving much anyway, but if your team is mobile (mostly meds and fast heavies) you really give up a lot of map control for free..
What you didn't mention is that lit heavies and meds on their way to hill will falter when spotted. You can let your heavies get there well in advance if you scout middle ridge right at the start.
If you're in the North and have no arty. The C-9-0 hole is the best place to scout. You pin the middle down having to deal with you spotting them....As well as spot the ones the covering the hill from the south 0 line forest.
I think this depends on whether you have a realistic chance to win hill or not. If you have mobile HTs like E5 and such, as a scout it's better to help contest the hill or control the vision at center hill instead to prevent their med/light to take your own center hill. However, if you're TD heavy/have very slow heavies which can't contest with 3 spg anyway, it's better to farm early game, don't commit anything to the hill and win vision game to make hill pointless in the end.
I understand what you are saying about not scouting. However, I've seen this map won by a scout who lit everyone up and I've seen the map won if the hill is lost. I've also seen the game lost if the hill is won or if no one spots early. No map can be boiled down to "DO THIS EVERYTIME". Every game boils down to how well your team works together regardless of which strategy is employed by each individual. You've got to realize that you are such a good player that no matter what you do, you will be victorious the majority of the time. You could go sit in the corner of the map for the first 5 minutes and still pull a victory over 50% of the time.
It's a fair point but you could easily find way more examples of a scout winning the map by spotting the enemies leaving base. If the scout knows what he's doing and the scout's teammates know how to aim, it can be 5-0 or more before the enemies get out of range of the scout. Being 15 vs 10 (with several of them being damaged most likely) is a way bigger advantage than having the hill, especially since it's not like the Mines hill where you get to cover the entire map from it. If the enemy just stays further back in the woods or simply ignores that part of the map when they realize the hill is lost, the hill becomes worthless. It's only a good hill if the enemies push it.
It also completely depend on tier and the scout you're driving. Sure, the T-54 lwt can actually fight a bit so it's not completely worthless on the hill which certain other lights would be. So for them it's either scouting or sitting back watching the game unfold hoping for a chance to race through looking for arty.
"I don't wanna show hes name". Name is in the game chat at the same moment....
It's not like scouts loses the games but heavies and mediums who stops to shoot loses. TDs are in the game to snipe and then again if a team manage to get enough damage in the early game, losing hill is not necessarily a loss.
This shows one of the responsibilities you have with a light tank. Lights should spot when and where needed. Not just to get good xp or 3 mark a tank.
Meh. I have thought this way on occasion, but it is really situational.
In the second game, there is very little to reach across the field. However, you do get the first kill in the center, because there was a scout there to spot their scout trying to light up your slope of the hill (why I don't know - there was nothing that could hit up there on his team). In spite of the t49 running through their backfield, almost none of their hillbound team loses focus, which denies the idea that people will automatically stop to shoot any visible tank.
Now, if you have a bunch of td's or a bunch of arty, spotting the center early is huge. I've seen 4 tanks go down in the first minute on a good scout move to the center (one where the scout doesn't reveal himself...). If you have the arty, they can be busting tracks of the whole glob of hillbound forces.
Most of all, if you don't play for those center spotting locations, you don't know if they are, and their arty can be the ones wrecking your slow heavies trying to get up the hill.
This is a really a dynamic map where a lot of different things can happen depending on composition and ambition. I would even bet that controlling the hill early is not a good indicator for winning the map - both sides of the map have different ways of making it very hard to come back down the slope on the other side. Or, they can roll like a flood. It just depends on the tanks and players.
The first battle is pretty f'd up - neither team tried to cover the south at all, and the red team moved almost all of the vehicles that would have gone to those positions by the small lake, where LOS is terrible against what your team did - which was occupy the center in force. That let your guys have like 10 guns against 5 of theirs for the critical moment when your scout lit up their advance tanks.
If they had a scout in the center at 1:30 or so, with a more normal distribution of tanks in their southern buildings, their southern side could have known to cross the field pretty safely and really changed the dynamic for your team,
Or not, maybe it was already too late by then. But I think the story of that first game is more about how both sides did an odd thing (clumped heavily in the middle ground), but your clump was pressed forward while much of theirs was too far back to support when it mattered.
Yep Ive noticed this years ago....scouting makes top tanks sit in the base...sometimes they never even leave the base and then we get surrounded and murdered.
really good video! it's tough to understand the map meta if you have to make all of the mistakes yourself.
I joyed this video. Please don’t feel you need to fast forward. I enjoy the insight that comes from the commentary
Interesting thoughts. I like this map when I'm in my 13 90 as I camp in the bush on E3 an normally get really high spot assistance as I pick up the Heavies going for hill, meds going F3 and TD camping in base. Seems to win the game as long as I don't shoot anything until the end game.
Sun-su. Mistakes can be oportunities...zoom around em.. .
That was my opinion about this map also :) If you spot most of your team will stop to shoot and fail to take the hill.
But, on the other hand getting 6k assisted is sweet, even if you lose.
If there is no arty and the other team takes the hill quickly about 6 tanks / destroyers going to the A4 area and literally cut them to shreads coming off the hill. Once they are low health, push the hill and kill them in the process. Unfortunately, most people do not understand that tactic. [edited for double word removal]
Would you suggest going hill with mid-tier lights as well? I've noticed scouting can be real hit or miss in mid-tiers, so I never really know where to go, and kinda just wing it; usually not ending too well.
What happened to the good old days when both teams would sit in the buildings and wait for someone to get spotted? Those were fun when you discovered the other half of the map and you got beside the whole enemy team.
It's very simple, no scouts, lose match when the enemy sneaks up behind you.
Like everything in life, all situations are different. I too have noticed that when our scouts light the other team our heavies slow their advance. It is pretty hard not to shoot at tanks spotted out in the open. Still, in games where your team is badly outclassed in heavies and/or you have a lot of arty then scouting field is GENERALLY a good thing.
It was hard to believe that scouting early in one of the most open maps would be a bad idea but what you're talking sounds actually legit 😕
The real takeaway from this video is that if you are in a heavy tank, don't stop to shoot - just get your ass to the hill. Let the TDs, SPGs, or mediums that are in the middle, take those shots.
I just drive to the bushes in the middle of the field and the game ends in 5 minutes, always over 4000 spotting damage even on a Chaffee.
Dr. Strangelove or how I stopped worrying about the hill.
This video is 100% true. I just spotted 4.5k damage within the first 40 seconds on Malinovka. We killed 4 tanks before they left spawn.
Then for the next 2 minutes my entire team is still sitting around waiting for more targets but they're already on the hill. We lose the game with a 15-11 head start
On the EU server in low tiers (4-5) some will go for the hill.. but most of the battle is happening south and across field. Most will hide in bushes on one side and the others will be around houses and windows.. and the south scouts lit up the enemy while the td's are doing their job. By this time the hill is taken by someone.. but likely there are low in numbers.. like 2 enemy on the hill vs 5-8 in our team. So yeah.. your theory is correct but only if every player want to go on the hill. And in low tiers that is not the case.