If you have a cracked chainplate, let me know and mail it to: Benavent Dental 5820 Clarksville Square Dr Suite 100 Clarksville MD 21029 I will X-Ray it for a follow up video
If i might make a suggestion ... what you did with the dental drill will work, but if you used a a carbon steel fostner bit you could create an actual shoulder to fill with Butyl tape with an even circular shape and a flat bottom. This would in effect create a natural Butyl washer once the chainplate was attached and tightened to correct specifications. You can order the bits through Grainger.
I recommend chamfering the bottom edge and using countersunk bolts. I didn’t when I switched to external chainplates and the sheets catching on them is so annoying. I ended up fairing over them with epoxy but its ugly.
That is a good point with the sheets getting hooked under the chainplate. I hope that the way the sheets are routed will prevent them from fouling on it, but we shall see! If it becomes an issue, I know what to do. As for the bolts, my choices are very limited by the size of the fastener. Not much variety is available in 5/8”. I wanted to do a nice countersunk Phillips or Allen head but all I could find was the clunky Hex bolt. What size of bolt did you use on your boat? When I do this on Windpuff, I will probably get away with a smaller fastener since it’s a smaller boat. BTW, I love the carbon fiber reinforcement you put in your hull to beef up the structure when you did your chainplates!
@@RiggingDoctor Good point, It might just be the way my sheets are run. mine bolts are 1/2”. Ive also seen people use carriage bolts and thought that might have been a good option too. It looks like you’ve also got a rub rail that might keep them from fouling.
Non destructive imaging/inspection. Early on busting knuckles I would inspect cylinder heads for cracks by simply cleaning the surfaces with solvent, wiping dry, then spraying with a podiatrist solution called athletes foot spray. As the powder dries white the crack will be wet and dark. At the machine shop they would do magnetic particle particle inspection which is simply passing current through the metal while dousing it with a ferrous powder to see where the voidd are. My favorite was when overhauling Lycoming/ Continental engines I learned to inspect with Zyglo. It is super duper thin die that will remain in any void after drying the part. It kinda blows which makes it easy on the eye but not the waste water treatment equipment. My last job involved maintaining large turbine power Thrush airplanes. Twice a year I would disassemble the wing root and an engineer would use a diamond tip stylus (ink pen sized) to measure wing attachment cracks. It was called Eddy Current Inspection. Apparently it can see tiny cracks somehow by measuring electron flow. A couple hundred bucks every time X 3 airplanes. 😊
Alas but I tossed my cracked chain plates. They would have been perfect for you to test. My father was a professor of metallurgy and he suggested to ring each piece. Hang it by a fine thread and tap with a hammer or similar. A good piece will ring nicely. Anything with a crack will sound dull. I'm curious if your one suspect chainplate might ring differently than the others. Mine did.
Your new chain plates do not have the rigging attachment end angled to align with the standing rigging. Won’t this put a misalignment between the chain plate and standing rigging?
I sadly do not know the company. One of my patrons has worked with this company his entire career and to get “his pricing” as opposed to “regular customer pricing” he did the whole transaction. I really wish I knew but I’m sure I will be using them again in the future with Windpuff and all his bronze needs. Maybe with time, my patron will loosen his lips and tell me who the foundry is. All I know is it is in Pennsylvania. Maybe a google search of foundries In Pennsylvania will help narrow the search.
Bevel and polish the edges of the drilled holes to reduce sharp edges. Sharp edges are stress risers in metal for cracking. The bevel will also retain Butyl bedding compound around the bolt and plate interface.
I was an NDE tech, Quality Manager for a small firm, now retired. A dentist is far more qualified to speak to many things, and no doubt has a great deal more experience with X-Rays than I, we mainly used source radiography with film, this doesn't typically have the sensitivity of X-Ray using a tube head with a CR plate. However, radiography inspection was not recommended for cracks, although with proper orientation and/or loss of material it does show up. The method for volumetric (internal) crack detection, in a plate like this, is shear wave ultrasonic testing. If you had the piece out like in the video, find a good lab in your area and have them UT it. But if you had it out, have a new one fabricated like the Rigging Dr, did.
Of course since your stainless chainplates lasted around 40 years or more, you could have simply replaced them with new stainless and likely gotten another 30-40 years out of them. Presumably the original chainplates were made from 304 stainless. In that case upgrading to 316 would give them a even longer life since 316 is significantly less susceptible to crevice corrosion and corrosion in general than 304.. Even though 316 stainless is more expensive than 304, 316 is significantly cheaper than silicone bronze (likely less than half the cost of bronze) and generally much easier to find. Then there are the fasteners. 316 stainless bolts are much cheaper than silicon bronze bolts.
@@Andyfunsail No stainless, particularly 316, is fine outside the boat. As long as the stainless is exposed to air it will maintain its protective oxide coating and suffer very little corrosion. The old chainplates were very susceptible to corrosion where they passed through the deck because that was likely to be both a wet and anoxic (without oxygen) environment.
@@todddunn945you are correct, external stainless steel chainplates work very well. They can still develop issues on the face that attaches to the boat, but you can still see them much better to check on them. I did bronze for two reasons: 1. It can’t get any crevice corrosion 2. I like the look of it.
The closeup work with your dental drill is fascinating. What is the RPM of the drill? What metal is the bit? Was the bit a standard bit used when drilling a tooth? Thanks for your time. :¬) Webhead USA
Just use a little trig to find the angles Herbie. Right angle(ish) from the base of the mast. You have mast height. Angle will not change (similar triangles). You will be +/_ a a degree or 2, should be fine.
Always wondered if x-ray would show chainplate issues. They use it to inspect the spars on the Beech 18. Another idea might be eddy current testing. They use it on aircraft propellers to find micro cracks. I like the idea of beveling the holes to better bed the butyl but a counter sink would make nicer work of it.
It would be interesting if you could tell the difference in ringing between the SS chain plate with the suspected crack, and the ring of one that looked like it's not cracked. Theoretically, a crack would make the plate sound flatter. Probably would have to be clean though...
That’s a great idea! If someone sends me some that have bigger or more obvious cracks on X-ray, I will be sure to give them a tap and listen to the ringing
Leave it to a dentist to use a very expensive drill to do the same thing the rest of us would do with a chamfering bit on the end of a cordless drill. I might have even used a deburring tool on bronze to get the same results in a fraction of the time. But, those shots and music with the dental drill looked a lot cooler than what I could have done.
It’s where my mind goes when I need to make something small 🤓 I use those burs when I prepare a tooth for a crown so to me it’s like second nature to use it. I did end up getting a countersink bit and it did the same result in a fraction of the time.
Actually, the area most likely to develop crevice corrosion is where it goes through the deck. It’s the area most likely to hold salt water and not have oxygen getting to the stainless surface.
True, but when doing an inspection on a boat with the chainplates installed, you won’t see that part as it’s encased in sealant. The spot you will visually see it is near the first bolt hole. When you see that, it can be assumed that there are more cracks elsewhere that can’t be seen.
Actually you need Crack Testing Fluid under UV Light to find Cracks in Metals, such as Cracks in Steering Racks for Car Steering Components. 🤔 Bob eta - who used to work on a Power steering Production line. 👍🌟🌟🌟❤️
I made a pinned comment for people to mail them to me so I can x ray them. I had one that I kept as a sample years ago but I tossed it when I went Cruising.
Personally, I would never have chamfered the bolt holes by hand with a dental drill. The chamfering is uneven and produced sharp edges, both of which are highly undesirable.
Love what you do, but didn't you kind of negate your whole effort? Could have taken off all the chain plates, tested, when realized they were in pretty good shape, just replaced them? I mean they were in good shape for 20+ years, so replacements should have worked just fine. What am i missing or are you just one of those that enjoy projects? Which i understand, lol
The stainless steel was in pretty good shape but they connected to an iron frame that was rusting away. The whole structure needed to be replaced so we simply switched to external chainplates.
![Installing External Chainplates | Sailing Wisdom [S6 Ep10]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iQpE8X6GzpQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Installing External Chainplates | Sailing Wisdom [S6 Ep10]](/img/tr.png)
If you have a cracked chainplate, let me know and mail it to:
Benavent Dental
5820 Clarksville Square Dr
Suite 100
Clarksville MD 21029
I will X-Ray it for a follow up video
@@h2oslider242 rude!
If i might make a suggestion ... what you did with the dental drill will work, but if you used a a carbon steel fostner bit you could create an actual shoulder to fill with Butyl tape with an even circular shape and a flat bottom. This would in effect create a natural Butyl washer once the chainplate was attached and tightened to correct specifications. You can order the bits through Grainger.
Hard corners may lead to cracks .
Good to know!
I recommend chamfering the bottom edge and using countersunk bolts. I didn’t when I switched to external chainplates and the sheets catching on them is so annoying. I ended up fairing over them with epoxy but its ugly.
That is a good point with the sheets getting hooked under the chainplate. I hope that the way the sheets are routed will prevent them from fouling on it, but we shall see! If it becomes an issue, I know what to do.
As for the bolts, my choices are very limited by the size of the fastener. Not much variety is available in 5/8”.
I wanted to do a nice countersunk Phillips or Allen head but all I could find was the clunky Hex bolt. What size of bolt did you use on your boat? When I do this on Windpuff, I will probably get away with a smaller fastener since it’s a smaller boat.
BTW, I love the carbon fiber reinforcement you put in your hull to beef up the structure when you did your chainplates!
@@RiggingDoctor Good point, It might just be the way my sheets are run. mine bolts are 1/2”. Ive also seen people use carriage bolts and thought that might have been a good option too. It looks like you’ve also got a rub rail that might keep them from fouling.
Non destructive imaging/inspection. Early on busting knuckles I would inspect cylinder heads for cracks by simply cleaning the surfaces with solvent, wiping dry, then spraying with a podiatrist solution called athletes foot spray. As the powder dries white the crack will be wet and dark. At the machine shop they would do magnetic particle particle inspection which is simply passing current through the metal while dousing it with a ferrous powder to see where the voidd are. My favorite was when overhauling Lycoming/ Continental engines I learned to inspect with Zyglo. It is super duper thin die that will remain in any void after drying the part. It kinda blows which makes it easy on the eye but not the waste water treatment equipment. My last job involved maintaining large turbine power Thrush airplanes. Twice a year I would disassemble the wing root and an engineer would use a diamond tip stylus (ink pen sized) to measure wing attachment cracks. It was called Eddy Current Inspection. Apparently it can see tiny cracks somehow by measuring electron flow. A couple hundred bucks every time X 3 airplanes. 😊
The technologies out there to test for failure before they happen is amazing!
Great video. I have been following your progress on the chain plates with great interest
Alas but I tossed my cracked chain plates. They would have been perfect for you to test. My father was a professor of metallurgy and he suggested to ring each piece. Hang it by a fine thread and tap with a hammer or similar. A good piece will ring nicely. Anything with a crack will sound dull. I'm curious if your one suspect chainplate might ring differently than the others. Mine did.
A valid test for grinding wheels too. I’d love to see it tried here.
A cheap counter sink bit would make perfect bevels around your holes and would take one second per bevel.
Yup, quick, easy & neater.
But I did like the cinematography & lighting with the dental gear!
For bronze you can use a plumbers tank cutter bit it's like a giant countersink bit but a longer cone taper and more cutting edges on the spiral.
Did you xray the bronze ones for a benchmark?
Thank you
Your new chain plates do not have the rigging attachment end angled to align with the standing rigging. Won’t this put a misalignment between the chain plate and standing rigging?
It would, and in the next episode we will be bending them to the necessary angle
Another awesome video Herbie, could you share the company you got your bronze from in PA? I'm replacing my rudder gudgeons this year....
I sadly do not know the company. One of my patrons has worked with this company his entire career and to get “his pricing” as opposed to “regular customer pricing” he did the whole transaction. I really wish I knew but I’m sure I will be using them again in the future with Windpuff and all his bronze needs.
Maybe with time, my patron will loosen his lips and tell me who the foundry is.
All I know is it is in Pennsylvania. Maybe a google search of foundries In Pennsylvania will help narrow the search.
Bevel and polish the edges of the drilled holes to reduce sharp edges. Sharp edges are stress risers in metal for cracking. The bevel will also retain Butyl bedding compound around the bolt and plate interface.
I was an NDE tech, Quality Manager for a small firm, now retired. A dentist is far more qualified to speak to many things, and no doubt has a great deal more experience with X-Rays than I, we mainly used source radiography with film, this doesn't typically have the sensitivity of X-Ray using a tube head with a CR plate. However, radiography inspection was not recommended for cracks, although with proper orientation and/or loss of material it does show up. The method for volumetric (internal) crack detection, in a plate like this, is shear wave ultrasonic testing. If you had the piece out like in the video, find a good lab in your area and have them UT it. But if you had it out, have a new one fabricated like the Rigging Dr, did.
For non-engineers, NDE is non-destructive evaluation.
@@wonderboy6511 thanks
Also refered to as NDT (non destructive testing).
Dye penetretant method can also help identify cracks to a certain degree.
@@wonderboy6511thank you for the explanation
Of course since your stainless chainplates lasted around 40 years or more, you could have simply replaced them with new stainless and likely gotten another 30-40 years out of them. Presumably the original chainplates were made from 304 stainless. In that case upgrading to 316 would give them a even longer life since 316 is significantly less susceptible to crevice corrosion and corrosion in general than 304.. Even though 316 stainless is more expensive than 304, 316 is significantly cheaper than silicone bronze (likely less than half the cost of bronze) and generally much easier to find. Then there are the fasteners. 316 stainless bolts are much cheaper than silicon bronze bolts.
Aren't the new chain plates external so better made out of bronze?
@@Andyfunsail No stainless, particularly 316, is fine outside the boat. As long as the stainless is exposed to air it will maintain its protective oxide coating and suffer very little corrosion. The old chainplates were very susceptible to corrosion where they passed through the deck because that was likely to be both a wet and anoxic (without oxygen) environment.
@@todddunn945you are correct, external stainless steel chainplates work very well. They can still develop issues on the face that attaches to the boat, but you can still see them much better to check on them.
I did bronze for two reasons: 1. It can’t get any crevice corrosion 2. I like the look of it.
What is that sign mean is on your shirt from 9 minute?
Freemasons: it’s a fraternity.
@@RiggingDoctor i know what is freemason, what about you?
Yes
The closeup work with your dental drill is fascinating. What is the RPM of the drill? What metal is the bit? Was the bit a standard bit used when drilling a tooth? Thanks for your time. :¬) Webhead USA
Great show very interesting
Hey Herbie. What if when looking at the X-rays I am on my MacBook which has a cracked screen. Might I needlessly replace all my expensive chainplates.
Haha!
Herby........ the best instructor. .....and dyi on the water!! ❤❤
😎
Good video. When you getting back to work on that fibreglass stern extension?
Right after we get back from sailing this summer.
@@RiggingDoctor I can't wait !
In the meantime, might I interest you in a bite guard and teeth whitening?.............lol
Just use a little trig to find the angles Herbie. Right angle(ish) from the base of the mast. You have mast height. Angle will not change (similar triangles). You will be +/_ a a degree or 2, should be fine.
Always wondered if x-ray would show chainplate issues. They use it to inspect the spars on the Beech 18. Another idea might be eddy current testing. They use it on aircraft propellers to find micro cracks. I like the idea of beveling the holes to better bed the butyl but a counter sink would make nicer work of it.
It would be interesting if you could tell the difference in ringing between the SS chain plate with the suspected crack, and the ring of one that looked like it's not cracked. Theoretically, a crack would make the plate sound flatter. Probably would have to be clean though...
That’s a great idea! If someone sends me some that have bigger or more obvious cracks on X-ray, I will be sure to give them a tap and listen to the ringing
Leave it to a dentist to use a very expensive drill to do the same thing the rest of us would do with a chamfering bit on the end of a cordless drill. I might have even used a deburring tool on bronze to get the same results in a fraction of the time.
But, those shots and music with the dental drill looked a lot cooler than what I could have done.
It’s where my mind goes when I need to make something small 🤓
I use those burs when I prepare a tooth for a crown so to me it’s like second nature to use it.
I did end up getting a countersink bit and it did the same result in a fraction of the time.
Exactly my thoughts as well! 😂
Having said that, this is a super-cool video!
@@RiggingDoctoras a blacksmith I tend to solve problems with a hammer….let me know if you need some help with a tooth!
Actually, the area most likely to develop crevice corrosion is where it goes through the deck. It’s the area most likely to hold salt water and not have oxygen getting to the stainless surface.
True, but when doing an inspection on a boat with the chainplates installed, you won’t see that part as it’s encased in sealant. The spot you will visually see it is near the first bolt hole. When you see that, it can be assumed that there are more cracks elsewhere that can’t be seen.
I certainly hope *my* dentist doesn't chamfer chainplates between patients! 😬
Only after hours 😎
Doc, why do my teeth taste like copper after getting a filling?
No idea 😗🤫
Actually you need Crack Testing Fluid under UV Light to find Cracks in Metals, such as Cracks in Steering Racks for Car Steering Components. 🤔 Bob eta - who used to work on a Power steering Production line. 👍🌟🌟🌟❤️
👍👍👍
This was awesome. I'll have 8 bad chainplates to play with in a few months.
If you want to mail them to me I will x-ray them for you ;)
Very cool! We need to find a chain plate with some hidden crevice corrosion cracks to X-ray!!!
I made a pinned comment for people to mail them to me so I can x ray them. I had one that I kept as a sample years ago but I tossed it when I went Cruising.
First rule of Engineering - No one knows if it is too strong.
Second rule of Engineering - Another engineer knows it’s not strong enough 🤣
Personally, I would never have chamfered the bolt holes by hand with a dental drill. The chamfering is uneven and produced sharp edges, both of which are highly undesirable.
Interesting and fun video Herby.
Thank you
the humankind lost a remarkable dentist
I still work a few days a week unless I’m sailing somewhere
Thanks for muting the sound of the drill😅
You are very welcome. No one wants to listen to that 🎧
👍!!!
Why wouldn't you just magnaflux them?
Because I have an X-ray machine 😎
Love what you do, but didn't you kind of negate your whole effort? Could have taken off all the chain plates, tested, when realized they were in pretty good shape, just replaced them? I mean they were in good shape for 20+ years, so replacements should have worked just fine. What am i missing or are you just one of those that enjoy projects? Which i understand, lol
The stainless steel was in pretty good shape but they connected to an iron frame that was rusting away. The whole structure needed to be replaced so we simply switched to external chainplates.
:)
Thanks!
Sponsor me into the illuminati 😂 🧱