Trumpet Player Disagrees with Bernstein in Rehearsal - BBC Orchestra
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- Опубліковано 10 лис 2014
- Trumpets: what not to do when you're working with one of the greatest musical minds of your time.
Rehearsing Elgar's Enigma Variations - Фільми й анімація
I remember my trumpet teacher, who shall remain nameless, telling me of an incident he had with Zubin Mehta. The maestro asked the trumpet player to use a C-trumpet rather than a Bb for a particular passage. My teacher did not have his C with him, but rather than say that, he simply said "certainly maestro". He took the mouthpiece out of his Bb, and reached over to his trumpet case, pretending to change instruments. He played the passage once again on the same Bb instrument. Mehta said "Ah yes, that was the sound I was looking for".
Mehta was being sarcastic
Wow what a surprise
George Rynar ok
HAHAHAHA!!
ticky ticky ta
tae
Bernstein loved criticism from his players and always listened with consideration and understanding before ignoring it.
😂😂😂
Old school dryness, noice.
Bernstein is a great composer but an a overated director.
@@blender_wiki Overrated conductor 🤦♂️
@@blender_wiki The other way around,great conductor,not so good composer.
Those who think Bernstein was being harsh clearly haven't been in many ensembles before.
Well said ! Go and play in a top Yorkshire brass band . I could write a book about the legendary 'put downs ' the conductors have used . One of the best was when one player argued about something . The conductor put his hand in his pocket , flipped a 10p coin across the bandroom at the player and said ' there you go mate , go and ring someone who gives a fuck ' . Utter classic !!
hahaha. Truth.
He was being completely normal. I have had worse.
Damn straight. Musicians and other ensemble artists have to be able to work with criticism and odd demands.
Exactly. I don't even have that much experience and have have seen more than one conductor make people cry.
Odd that they had two conductors for this session, even stranger that one seemed to be in the second trumpet chair.
But it is actually the 3rd (blue shirt) trumpet who ignited the exchange. He was confrontational by re-stating what Bernstein had already demonstrated
😂😂
You almost made me spit out my coffee. Bravo.
@@yuichituba I don't drink coffee so I just spit lol
🤣🤣🤣 That made me bust out laughing!
What we trumpet players hear from behind the bell and also through our inner ear is not what the audience (or conductor) hears. I think Bernstein was being completely reasonable. It is his job as the conductor to shape the style and sound of the performance. It is the musicians' jobs to do their best to do as directed. I also think Bernstein showed decorum the way he took the high road and chose to be polite in his reaction to the trumpet player's haughty comments.
Agreed!
Funny. I just left an uneducated comment here. I should have scrolled down and read this one first.
I just found and read your so-called "uneducated" comment and if you don't consider yourself educated, you at least should consider yourself sensible and knowledgeable. You are one Bass Player I'd like to work with. Cheers, John
The Internet needs more affable and thoughtful exchanges like these. Kudos John & Craig.
definitely, thank you
"trumpet player signs his own death warrant"
Trumpet player plays the bull long enough, he'll eventually get the horns. :-)
Except they're behind the strumpets for a very good reason...
Marrying young trumpet players is in fact an offense punishable by death in some parts of Norway.
Bernstein to trumpet players 'Ok guys perhaps you're right - now let me show my appreciation by taking you up the Empire State building - there's some really great views from up there'
+MaroonCorey. Berenstein was the guy who wrote about the bears wasn't he?
Sir Malcolm Sergeant (rehearsing) bellowed: "The Second trombone is too loud"... (mumbles from the orchestra) "he isn't here yet". (Sergeant) "Well; when he gets here, tell him he's too loud"!
I heard this one about both Toscanini and William Steinberg.
Haha love that 🤣
Oh that's RICH! Thanks for sharing
😂😂😂
Nothing wrong in what he said. All issues in a band originate from the trombone section. Said this trumpet player who is always right. Lol.
Lenny was remarkably restrained and courteous. Toscanini would've eaten the guy's liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. :)
Syupsyupsyupsyupsyupsyup!! 😛
Nice reference
CONTRABAASI
My college roommate's father was a violinist in the Halle orchestra. And what he said about Toscanini doesn't bear repetition in a civilized post.
@@Sportfuckmy teacher's teacher played under toscanini. I'm triggered
Disagreeing wasn't the problem. Being fresh and rolling his eyes was. The third trumpet was asked how Bernstein wants it played in a polite manner. The second basically said he was playing it right all along and that Bernstein was being super aggressive with his comments. It's ok to disagree but you can't just make childish comments at the conductor if you're not hearing what he's hearing.
What childish comments? The only thing audible was:
"I don't think we ever did that."
Bernstein: "Pardon?"
"We try not to do that."
Bernstein: "He doesn't."
"Well, we follow him."
And that's it. That's a disagreement, which you said is ok. And it wasn't entirely unprovoked. Bernstein exaggerated an ugly sound to explain what Trumpet 2 sounded like, and when Trumpet 2 objected, Bernstein made a fresh comment which - while simply par for the course in any ensemble - was a bit unnecessary. There was no eye rolling from the Trumpeter, either.
"we're basically unmusical"
Hmm. I think both were out of line. Bernstein could have couched his feedback a little less offensively. No one who has dedicated their career to music/trumpet wants to have their sound imitated the way he did, which sounded like a quacking duck. I think I'd be pretty upset, myself!
chessicles99 I guess he was just having a bad day, well do once in a while.
Yes, but if I'm talking to someone of authority, like a professor, I keep it to myself. Being in a bad mood isn't a good excuse for being disrespectful.
It's worth noting that this incident was smoothed over during the rehearsal break, both parties were fine & it was put behind them.
+Sally Brown How would you know?
+Maestro_T The section principal is my father. This clip shows only the one discussion, not the ones that preceded it & caused the initial tension, or the one during the break. Neither party wanted to be at odds with the other, so it was easily remedied.
Sally Brown ha, cool :)
+Lord Chickenlegs Hasn't been mentioned to me.
Well, Bernstein complimented your father there when he said "if you could all have a sound like HIM."
I'm a trumpeter, and generally I tend to agree with my section, but in any musical group, there are as many opinions about the sound as there are musicians. What makes the music beautiful is unifying it through one concept, that of the conductor, no matter what he says. If you all play in the style he is asking, you are playing as one, and that is better than playing as a group of different individuals.
You are so right. If you're a better conductor than the conductor, well, apply for the job. Meantime, take direction and make beautiful music.
And the g he was playing was flat. That probably stung his ego a bit.
well said
Very well said!
That's true when Bernstein says something everyone should care. It's not any meaningless useless conductor. This orchestra should thank God to have Bernstein with them
THE CLARINETIST ARE JUST LIKE, "THATS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS" 😂😂
Typical woodwind, lololol.
😆 John Sanders - Ain't it so, though?! The replies above have missed the...point of your comment but I'm here for it 😁
@@DadComp-ov4ik 1:03 - guy in the front center, for starters 😅
@@DadComp-ov4ik You are absolutely not being trolled, let me assure you - that nonsense doesn't belong in the comments of this kind of video.
I have to say though, that it's a bit like having to explain a joke, ie it sort of spoils it? I sort of giggled myself when I first watched the video - it's just the nuances of the clarinet artists' behaviour, but I thought maybe that was just me, and then when I read John Sanders original comment I realised I wasn't alone. Maybe my reaction was a bit over the top, if so I apologise. I have aspergers and perceive things slightly differently to most people. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
@@NoBootyBeauty NO need to make excuses (Aspergers Syndrome.....)to make your point.
Strangely enough, Lenny was correct, and there was a difference in the final product. Sometimes musicians tend to think they did not do anything different, but he said it himself...they were following the leader of the section. The leader changed his tone and interpretation and the others followed. As a conductor myself, I have run into plenty of instrumentalists that just want to create a scene. No problem here and Bernstein handled it quite professionally, in my opinion.
It sounded soooo much better that last time which is funny. It was too punchy/distorted at first and at the end it was smoother and warmer
I know it’s a strict task but I usually learn different techniques with most instrument of the orchestra so I can give precise feedback to the point arguing doesn’t really make sense (except if the demand is too high; like play a C5 quietly). I’m not on a professional level of any sort but it usually shuts up the drama-starters.
why is that strange?
@@gatorshoe ur mom is a cunt thats why
Lenny???
I will never forget the time I went to the MET OPERA IN NYC. Leonard Bernstein graciously agreed to meet with me and my fellow students per a request from my sophomore English teacher who was a Bernstein fanatic. Leonard Bernstein spent over an hour with us, inspiring us with tales of his journey and with anecdotes for loving and living life. Sadly, he died shortly after that and left me with the honor of having seen his last performance and having spent time with him.
His last performance was Beethoven 7 at Tanglewood...
The bottom line, Bernstein got the improved sound he wanted. You can hear it clearly.
I can't hear it clearly - sounds exactly the same.
A/B both performances in an audio editor, they are identical.
Yes, I can. It is much fuller in balance (more supported in the lower harmonies) and much warmer - all the brassy tension gone!
@@thomassicard3733 because the microphones are pointed at them by the film crew by the second take.
I think Bernstein was losing part of his hearing in the latter years. I noticed that in West Side Story rehearsals.
the clarinet dude at the end is me
How old are you?
@@Abbathshin im joking man thats not actually me
@@adrimulet5965 damn your comments are stupid man...
@@adrimulet5965 I KNOW your joking...you know how I know?? because it's ME!!
Colin Bradbury. Remarkably he's still going strong.
What we hear behind the bell is completely different than what the audience hears. Sometimes we are right, most of the time the director is.
Yes as a guitarist and sound man I totally agree. What the guitarist hears on stage is different to what the audience hears in the mix. Adjustmnents are often required only for the guitarist to protest its not his sound. They forget that its a team game...
@@fastacesus8499 : it‘s a long way for quite some guitarists to understand that.
@@fastacesus8499 As a sound engineer/guitarist as well, I always take a moment to listen to the guitarist and the sound that he gets from his amp and try to make that sound come over and fill the room. Sometimes to get the sound that the guitarist hears on stage he/she has to alter the EQ...... if this is explained properly then I find that axe men become more cooperative.
On the flip side, it is also a sound engineers responsibility to take the sound of the band and make it bigger via the PA. It is not up to the engineer to decide how an instrument should sound when it is somebody else's art.
A bigger issue for me is bassists. Usually DI and then linked to the amp..... Mmmm if you have a great bass sound coming from a quality bass amp set up then it seems a waste to only use it as a monitor - but I also understand why it is necessary for exactly the reason that we are discussing.
When the conductor have ears, like Bernstein..
@@fastacesus8499 as a brass player and guitarist, they are a little different
0:22 vs 1:42 .... the difference is clear. He is asking for more open expression and lyrical playing style.
Exactly right. The legendary conductor had more ear than that trumpeter. Most people need to hear those back to back, not Bernstein. Therein lies the genius of a well trained, even innate, musical ear.
Absolutely! Fascinating.
thanks for the juxtaposing!
Good timestamps
Also 0:54
As somebody who has played in professional orchestras for about 30 years (including with Bernstein conducting on a few occasions), I'm unable to see how he was being 'difficult' or 'disrespectful' in this clip. He WAS being picky, and asking for something very specific. But he wasn't being rude or unpleasant. I think just about anybody listening to the clip can hear the difference in the sound quality by the end. As with anything aesthetic, there's room for disagreement about whether it's 'better' (personally, I think it sounds MUCH better). But, as a conductor, it wasn't unreasonable for him to ask for something very specific from the players and to keep trying until he got it.
By the way, as a musician, being asked by somebody to do something in a way that's very different from the way you would do it can be very good for you. It can open your ears, stretch your imagination, give you new ideas and a different way of understanding a piece of music that may have become so familiar to you that you take it for granted. Pouty trumpet guy shows signs of doing just that.
I got "the nod" from Sergiu Comissiona during a performance of Don Juan at Jones Hall in Houston. Why? Because I was looking directly at him, watching his every move, and gave him exactly what he was listening for on cue. The rest of the HSO hated him and buried their heads in their stands at all times. He was great, though... they had just decided he was garbage.
Mob think.
You played under Bernstein??? You have my admiration & a lot of ENVY!!
Imagine you're only known for being bitchy to a generational talent.
He asked them to make music, not merely play written notes.
If someone wants to hear what a dick of a director sounds like, watch the movie, Whiplash. I had to turn it off after about 1/3 of the movie. To me, there is no screaming and demeaning when it comes to music.
As a trumpet player, we need to make the initial musical decision, but the conductor should make the final one, and our job is to convey the music in the way the conductor is imagining. This trumpet player is overstepping his bounds and forgetting his role in the orchestra. Bernstein was very gracious with him. But hey, this guys was playing with the BBC orchestra, and he probably didn't get there with a lack of confidence.
That's bull. Someone with that level of musicianship should be given room to argue his point. The idea that one man can be responsible for an entire orchestra is absurd one.
@@Will_Moffett The conductor leads the Orchestra. Can't have a functioning team if members doubt the leader
@@speedy Nonsense. Do you believe every functioning team believes their leader is infallible? It's Hitler style or it doesn't work? Doubt is fine. Input is fine. Of course at the end of the day the leader gets his way but the better leaders take constructive criticism. Don't be such an empty vessel.
@@speedy sounds kinda....outdated man.
@@Will_Moffett "The idea that one man can be responsible for an entire orchestra is absurd one."
But that's literally the job of a conductor-- To be responsible for (the sound of) an entire orchestra.
Music is highly subjective... So if every musician were to give their input, no rehearsal would actually happen... You'd just have musicians arguing about how the piece should sound for two hours. Every member of that orchestra could have argued with Bernstein over any point they wanted, but they don't do it because they know it's not their role and that it would be a massive waste of everyone's time.
The trumpet player was being egotistical and petulant.
Ego is a fragile thing.
Ego is the main problem in an orchestra
Rey Fernandez Jr. So accurate
For sure. Though to be fair, Bernstein had quite the impressive ego too lol
@@jazzoboe44 Exactly. If ego is indeed fragile, it’s also indeed universal.
@@jazzoboe44 His was earned.
Can we just talk about that clarinet player trying not to lose it at the end 😂
Colin Bradbury😂😂
As a 14-year-old boy chorister in 1971 I corrected Lenny in a studio session he was leading. There were 5 of us boys and various wind players recording a small portion of his "MASS" to be played in live performances.
LB: "Now sopranos, in measure 8 [or whatever] I need more sound, OK?"
My hand shot up like a railway signal and he said, "Yeeeees?"
ME: "Mr. Bernstein, we are not sopranos, we are trebles..."
My choirmaster was in the sound booth in sheer terror of the excoriation Lenny could direct at me. But it was not to be.
LB: Thank-you, young man, for the correction. Trebles, is it? Ah yes, trebles, I need more sound at that point..."
Good times.
Was that his "Kaddish" (Symphony #3)? The boys' choir part has a 3-part round segment? I often use that round as a vocal exercise with groups. I performed that work as part of the adult choir once. Bernstein wasn't conducting, but since his wife, Felicia Montealegre, was narrating, he attended the concert and we got to meet him afterwards.
True masters know when they are wrong, that's very admirable
You would think Bernstein could hear the difference between a soprano and a treble.
My favorite part was seeing the clarinet player at the end smiling
I hear two things in the comments:
"Don't argue with the conductor! He is the maestro! He hears all the parts"
and "Well the trumpet player is doing his job"
How about two extremely professional musicians just happen to disagree on an interpretation. That trumpet player knows more about his instrument than Bernstein ever could. Bernstein knows more about the orchestration and goals of the piece than that trumpet player probably will. It wasn't some bitchfest, it was two extremely accomplished men disagreeing on a particular interpretation. This is how it should go if there is an egregious disagreement, especially if you're on a schedule.
Will Yandell Then he should've come to Bernstein in private. Come to think of it, it would've played better if he had gone to his principal and asked him to talk to Bernstein about it
Can you please stop being so reasonable? This is a comments section, not a librarian conference.
I don't believe relative knowledge of the trumpet even matters. All that matters is the music, the tone, the performance. And so the question is: Did they play better or worse after shutting their cake holes and just taken some very gentle advise, or did they not? I believe Mr. Bernstein was: a.) Correct about the passage b.) Polite - he was very encouraging, saying, "good, good" c.) And all things considered, the simple fact Mr. Eye Roller didn't get fired on the spot, taken out back and set on fire is a very positive reflection on Mr. Bernstein.
well, basically they just played it louder the second time, and with a wider crescendo. that has actually nothing to do with good or bad playing. It is interpretation.
How about one is the player in an ensemble, the other the boss?
Art by committee usually ends up with no clear point of view, and basically sucks.
Two anecdotes on conductors: Our chorus was rehearsing one of the choral masterpieces with a well-known conductor for a summertime presentation of the Beethoven Ninth. The conductor stopped the rehearsal in the middle and looked at our conductor and demanded: "You vill get more tenors." Our conductor took care of the problem by 1) shifting those baritones who could to sing tenor for the few bars at issue, and 2) directing us to look more intense when singing the passage. Furrowed brows!
Next anecdote: Same chorus was singing another big work for a different audience and in a different summer season and venue. Different conductor also, but similarly well-known. Rehearsal was 5 minutes from ending when suddenly the big name conductor stopped the rehearsal and sent everyone to lunch. We were about to rehearse a tricky section where our own conductor was going to conduct an offstage passage for the men while watching the big name conductor for the tempo. Upshot was that we sang the passage without rehearsal. Luckily we all were very conscientious and used part of lunchtime to go over the passage ourselves a few times.
As Jimmy Durante would say, "I got a million of them."
Once a wise trumpet professor said to me: "If the conductor wants you to play more quiet, play the same. Just look at him more quiet."
Yep, I guess pianissimo isn't a word on a brass player's vocabulary
@@johannpetersen1727 ok random
@@ui3138 Just playing around, don't take it seriously
Most sound recording engineers will be familiar with instructions to make small changes. You then do it exactly the same as before and the director says... "now that's much better" .. isn't it.?!? You can never win by arguing with hierarchy.
If the composer had wanted it to be quiet, he wouldn't have written it for trumpet.
Conducting an orchestra looks like a really difficult job.
Bernstein was considered "difficult," but he wasn't difficult. He knew exactly what he wanted, and he insisted until he got it. This passage is hard - it's low and uncomfortable, and I think the trumpet player was nervous, felt he was being attacked and got a bit defensive. OK, so what? These are artists and these kinds emotions are part of what makes them good. Trumpet and horn are super high-stress instruments, and the top players are a bit high strung, always. Still, you just can't talk back to a conductor like that in front of the orchestra, most certainly not to Leonard Bernstein. I've worked with lesser conductors who would have asked the orchestra manager to remove the player from the rehearsal, possibly even the concert. What I would like to know is if Lennie and the trumpet player didn't get together afterwards, talk it out, and then shake hands.
That's why trombone is better
great comment
Some of my best friends are trombone players
I just think that there are a limit, I don't care if it is Bernstein or Karajan! Conductors should know that somethings are harder to get and should communicate what they want to musicians separately sometimes, so they could avoid situations like this.
Charles Terrizzi don't be silly. Trombonists don't have friends. ;-)
Forgive me. I am just a dumb rock guy but I think I may have an explanation. It simply sounds different BEHIND the trumpet. Bernstein is several feet away but in FRONT of the instrument. I wonder if there is an acoustic dynamic in brass/wood instruments that prevents a horn player from hearing exactly how his instrument sounds from playing position? I am an electric bass player. If I stand directly behind or adjacent to my amplifier it sounds completely different to those who are just a few feet away or to the side. Just a theory.
A Game Theory.
As a brass player it's even more extreme than that: Not only do you hear the sound from a different direction, you also hear the sound buzzing inside your head (like how you hear yourself talk 'in your head' and how it gets weird when you have a cold). So what the trumpet player hears is very distorted. Ofcourse he is aware of this and years of training caused him to know what is right and what is wrong most of the time.
Spot on!!
I'm a trumpeter. The conductor wants what he wants and we musicians play under his direction.
I agree with Bernstein. From the 2nd Eight, the blend into crescendo is much more resonant.
Agreed. The trumpet player was completely missing the point. Hopefully the other guys in the section worked with him to ensure he learned something from this experience.
I think, a litte bit more "cowbell", would seal the deal. :-)
Well, obviously, 😂
Christopher Walken would agree. That SNL skit gave me a headache.
and Don Brewer on vocals
What it sounded like from the chair of the player and from the podium could be two different things, the resultant of all the horns playing together and when they reach various places is the sound waves combining and interacting can be very complex, so it's quite possible that the sound at the chairs of the players is very different from what is heard farther out, especially because of bone-transmission and even cavity-resonances in the horn players' bodies, just like hearing our own voice playback of the recording versus our own voice in our own bodies there is a vast difference.One thing great to notice here is how professionally Lenny handled the "dissent",he simply said what he heard and try to make it better and then moved on. Thank you L.B., eternally!
I gave a couple of massages to the maestro when I was working as a massage therapist at the Watergate Hotel. He opened the door to his suite and his warmth as a human being was immediately apparent. He also got on the phone with someone he knew and once again you could feel his caring for the other person on the line. He was a wonderful person.
Did he get a happy ending
@@unknownkingdom No. It's truly unfortunate you felt the need to ask a question like that.
@@kelleyeidem667 welcome to youtube
@@unknownkingdom UA-cam didn't write your question. You did.
@@kelleyeidem667 owell I'm sure you will enjoy being on UA-cam and will enjoy many enlightening discussions without any crude jokes
They need a Buddy Rich "pep talk".............
Are you diggin' it?
"YOU CAN'T EVEN HOD A TWO AND FOUR BEAT!!!... GET OFF MY DAMN BUSS!! AZZHOLSE!!!!"
Saxophones!!!!! Saxophones!!! Are you fucking kidding me!! I could replace all of you right now! How? I’m Buddy Fucking Rich....that’s how!!!
...only on a bus...
or Frank Zappa's... "hey.. just STFU and play!"
Here are the different sections side by side:
0:22
0:54
1:42
There truly is a difference at the end of the clip. Much better intonation and blend.
It's worth noting he was two and a half hours late, after refusing to leave his hotel room because the rehearsal location was further away from the Savoy than Bernstein had expected . The orchestra had sat under that blistering lighting for the whole time.
This reply should be at the top of the page.
I would like to read the whole story. Do you have any source or link?
I can't imagine the orchestra sat there the whole time, if Lenny would be 2.5 hours late, they would sit in the canteen the majority of the time.
It’s all about context.
Tell that to the Australian ditch digger. It’s a privilege to play music for a living even though all musicians know it is hardly a glamorous life.
I understand what Bernstein was getting at. When you have an ear for music and its feel, you know what you want in a particular sound.
That's some grandmaster-level coaching.. Bernstein gets the trumpets to sound the way he wants (noticeably much better), the principal talks back, and Bernie is like "Don't you hear the difference? ... You don't." And then essentially, that's OK, this is where I need it, and moves on.
It wasn't the principal, the back-talk was from the 2nd trumpet. He continued to have a bad attitude throughout and should have been spoken to afterwards. Who knows, it could have happened.
it sounds the same
After hearing Toscanini threatening to deliver physical beatings to the entire double bass section for a late entry, this barely even counts as a conflict. :D
I've had my share of issues with conductors as a professional trpt player over the yrs, but there is no doubt that Bernstein achieved a superior result after isolating this. You can obviously see from the 2nd trpts body language early on, that he was in a foul mood & not open to Lenny's musical direction. The principal trumpet should've put him in his place & told him to be respectful. I'd never want to have an event like this memorialized where I blatantly disrespected a legendary maestro like this. How shameful!!
Even if he didn't like it, he needed to deal with it. That's just how the industry is and 2nd trumpet there knew what he signed on for. Maybe Bernstein was a little blunt, but he did achieve a superior result.
In this case, Bernstein was correct (although he was inconsistent in his conducting talent). And correct or not, you must respect the boss! But I've seen a producer hearing flaws that Bernstein was unable to notice - and the producer was correct. It also related to brass ensemble. Bernstein wasn't young - should be noted.
True, there is a recording of Mahlers...8? cant remember the symphony but the last chord, the trumpet was so flat that it sounded like a major 7th chord. It is shocking the Bernstein did not notice that. (well maybe it was a live concert....)
I think i come in first place in all this:) At the northwest mahler festival this year, as a principal percussionist i took this same idea 1 step further saying out loud to the conductor and the whole orchestra during a stressful dress rehearsal for mahler 10-" IT IS WHAT IT IS"
REPLY
Ryan- not sure what you mean.Was this a response to someone else's complaint? And of course, Mahler 10 isn't entirely Mahler anyway- not really a relevant observation.
Part of it's a learning curve for the player: the relationship within the section creates a particular soundscape, the conductor wants something else, the section has to adjust. The dots are just a guide, and on a loud instrument like a trumpet the individual performer cannot always hear the clear meld of the section's sound as a balanced whole. Listen to where they start and where they get to - and ask yourself where that could take them given enough rehearsal time.
It sounds like a normal exchange during a rehearsal.
In my experience these tense cascading awkward moments start where there is some preexisting tension in the relationship, perhaps unacknowledged and where there is unexpected stress in an area that has ego invested. They had probably played this passage for another maestro and felt good about it then Bernstein's criticism is a sudden shock and the mask slips and things get just a little out if control. In other circumstances he would probably react very differently.
Those "other" conductors don't hold a candle to the achiements of the Great Maestro Lenny!
"You can always tell a Brit, but you can't tell him much."
...helpful comment ...I've experienced the same in the USA strangely ...and rather a lot ...ho ho
@@nlumby shit fire and howdeedoodee Buford! You got that one right! Caint tell us much, cuz we jest don git it sometimes when y'all Limeys use them big words.! Hoowee! "Misunderestimate" G Bush jr. "there was no deal there was no deal there was no deal" Trump, playing it safe with the monosyllabic. (btw. re: your comment. "oi. nice one, my son. well played. ")
It's just amazing how this can be written as a UA-cam video title
So glad to see this little gem again. I thought it had disappeared.
not quite my tempo
answer the fucking question where you rushing or where you dragging?
i dont know. throw a cymbal at me and ill tell you
wtf
i h8 u
or throw a cowbell
Well, not sure how the trumpet players feel, but for me as a listener, the final take was very much more satisfying than what they started out with. So whatever Bernstein ordered, I don't know, but it sure achieved a result.
Id expect a musician of that level to understand that the conductor hears what the audience hears while you hear things differently through your body. You just listen and do whats needed
"Don't you hear the difference?"
No! 😂
By George, I think he's (not) got it!
I heard a tremendous difference, and Bernstein knew exactly what he was wanting to hear.
I don't think it was tremendous, but acceptable considering the immutability of one or more of the trumpet players.
That conductor is amazing. The quality difference from minute 0 to 2 is astounding
"That conductor" is (was) Leonard Bernstein, one of the best conductors and musicians of all times. And composer. West Side story, Kaddish Symphony etc.
it sounds identical
Trumpet player here. One thing to keep in mind, you hear mostly your own trumpet (because you are concentrating on that), and (if you are 2nd Trumpet) you hear the other two trumpets coming from each side of you. Of both the other trumpets coming from one side if you are first or third trumpet. But the conductor hears all three of you coming from straight ahead. And the sound from behind the bell is different than the sound in front of your bell. So, he really does hear a different sound than you do, especially if you have a really keen ear like a good conductor will have.
Unless we really know the context of what was happening in this rehearsal, it is tough to really fault anyone in this exchange. For all we know, it is at the end of a tough rehearsal, and both conductor and players are getting tired, and perhaps a bit impatient. It happens... Besides, the trumpeter, although a bit rude, was just having an honest reaction. I love how Bernstein did not seem troubled by it, and just moved on. That is what pros do...
Being a professional musician is hard stuff, especially at this level. Respect to those people who follow their passion in music. Unfortunately the money isn’t there
It isn’t always about the money dude
@@akoaykilalamo lol yeah it is. I would love to be playing in an orchestra or being a band director but I don't want to be broke with a useless degree.
@@renegomez6679 Pretty sure these people being in BBC orchestra on monthly salary earned quite nicely and Bernstein surely wasn't broke. Another thing is if one can make it to that level.
Too right. Are premier league footballers really worth more than musicians ?? I think NOT !!
I remember in the ‘60s going to Rich’s Department Store in downtown Atlanta to get shoes. When the salesman went to get another pair Mother told me he was in the French horn section of the Atlanta Symphony. Store president Dick Rich, she said, was a patron of the symphony and helped musicians with jobs.
When in doubt, at least pretend that you hear what the conductor is talking about.
Literally just widening up the tone, that's all - appreciate how calmly Bernstein handled it, all directors should do that
Thanks for posting this truly fascinating moment, Chris. Ah Lenny. One of my hero’s. Buried right here in Brooklyn, NY, at Greenwood Cemetery. How lucky for those of us to have been alive during his lifetime...Like a handful of humans, Lenny’s legacy will endure for all time. He is for the ages.
and the idiot trumpeter will now live in infamy for his caustic manner thanks to UA-cam
Maybe so, but he also didn't speak ex cathedra for all musicians and conductors. People sometimes talk about him like he could walk on water.
@@timmellin2815Thanks for your sobering comment and Latin. A small number of musicians and conductors also speak negatively of Lenny because they are frustrated musicians and conductors. Hey, praising an absolute genius is all relative, no? Carpe Diem.
I studied with a NY Phil trumpet player who performed with that orchestra during the Lenny years, and was fortunate to have been taught ethics of professional musicianship that carried over into other areas of my life. And I believe that much of what success I might have enjoyed in music benefited from the lessons of being on time, knowing the music, and never EVER taking up valuable ensemble rehearsal time flexing one's ego in front of the conductor.
Ironically, part of the tension in this rehearsal stems from Bernstein's showing up very late and not apologizingl! Not that I disagree with your point in general.
Bernstein was incredibly gentle here. I once sang in a chorale conducted by the late Roger Wagner and there were a few rehearsals where we thought we might be hit by flying music stands or batons. He got what he wanted from us too but from a much more volatile manner.
You can clearly hear the difference from the first time to the last.
Two important rules to follow:
1 The conductor is always right.
2 When the conductor is wrong, refer to rule 1.
It appeared that Bernstein appreciated hearing honest comments from the musicians. The maestro handled this well and diplomatically. The musicians should be free to comment as they see fit, but the conductor has the last word, of course.
I see a lot of comments that are just straight up wrong here, but this time around its something I know very well. Source if you care : am a professional trumpet player.
The conductor was asking for something but identified what was wrong incorrectly - but his expertise is not the instrument it is the SOUND. Also worth noting, I did have the rewatch once to understand his POV. The difference between the last two attempts is that the in final one that was more well done, the middle voice (2nd trumpet) backed off on the volume to allow the three voices to blend much better to create a much more peaceful harmony. What stuck out as a "bwah" or sort of "brassy" sound was the clash between the different notes trying to overlap at different volumes, almost like it was producing a dissonant sound despite the notes being exactly the same. Sound is a complicated science, and an even more complicated art.
Why did this happen though? Because the conductor asked them to more present and make the crescendo far more prevalent in their playing of their rendition of the piece.
1st attempt they all played in unison, slight crescendo. 2nd attempt they all have more sound, but its imbalanced (of course it is they are trying to meet the conductors request, doing the same thing/being timid/hiding accomplishes NOTHING and each player will have a different interpretation even if they are trying to follow their 1st chair), then with the desired result established but a tweak being requested, the players again attempt to modulate and meet the request exactly as the conductor wanted it, this time with success.
So what are the takeaways? The conductor was doing his job, so was the trumpet section. The 2nd chair player didn't understand his request and disagreed with the way the conductor was trying to probe with those particular questions/requests to arrive to the desired result, but still managed to find his way to what the conductor wanted. This is because you know what your sound manifests as with a given way of playing after hearing yourself hundreds and thousands of times, so he knew to try something else to maybe reach what is desired. That's skill and a willingness to experiment and be bold. You can't NOT have that in high level music performance.
Now being unable to recognize the difference of the product of the section? That's entirely possible because it can be difficult to have an idea of what something may sound like, but its also important to consider that it is impossible to know how something will sound 20 ft away from you when it is also layered with two other things you are hearing from different sides of your body. So the comment of not being able to hear a difference isn't misplaced or rude, it very likely is genuine. Knowing from another comment that this was discussed and amicably resolved just goes to remind everyone that when you are part of a music group you are all there to do the same thing. Was the 2nd trumpet a bit unreasonably peeved? Yeah somewhat, but what they are doing is exhausting for everyone and a signs of fatigue, stress, etc are common. This wasn't hostility, this was cooperation to the best of their ability.
longass comment on a random youtube video has now consumed 30min of my workday, increase the peace!
Yes. Thank you. Finally found someone who actually knows what they’re talking about.
Fascinating video scene. Thank you.
This is the BBC Symphony Orchestra from the early 1980s. The trumpeter on the left wearing glasses is Norman Burgess and the one in the middle is Ian MacIntosh, son of the great English cornetist Jack (who was actually a founder member of the orchestra in 1930).
it was a very stressful rehearsal. Bernstein was 3 hours late, and had been asking the orchestra to do almost-impossible things the whole time, while playing at tempos the orchestra weren't used to (way faster or slower.)
Welcome to performance, I've seen chairs hurled across the stage more than once. Performers are asked to do the impossible every day. Making a suggestion is one thing, but rolling your eyes and being a smartass is another. Openly disrespecting a conductor, especially one with that pedigree even then?
@@markmcelroy1872 you're definitely right, but it's just a waste of time. Acting like he's never been given criticism before lol.
@@markmcelroy1872 oh boy do I have a good story for you.
@@markmcelroy1872 we had a trombone player named jackson who's mom was dating our director. In the middle of a practice jackson got pissed and turned his back on the director for 20 minutes. The director told him to go home, and jackson said "ok dad take me home."
with this context I would be pissed also
I'm a trumpeter... we're notoriously thin skinned. Mr. Bernstein was right. "Don't you hear the difference?" Yes, I do sir. It's better after your input.
"Why do you suppose i just threw a chair at your head?"
Bernstein brought out the emotion of his performers and grudgingly appreciated the feedback as well.
“Are you rushing or dragging?”
I really like how Bernstein handled the situation. He was able to de-escalate the trumpeter's perception of a personal attack on his sound. Bernstein indicated the type of sound he wanted, then gave praise when the attempt was made. That's why Bernstein is the conductor and the other is 2nd trumpet.
Well I think Bernstein is the conductor because he can conduct and the other guy's the second trumpeter because he can play the trumpet. Doesn't mean one is better than the other.
@@KevinElamMusic REALLY ARE YOU SERIOUS?????
What an absolutely pointless comment…
The most polite disagreement I have ever seen.
That guy picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue
As a composer, and as a choir student, I can hear very well what Bernstein means. It's vital that the sound come across in a precise way that sometimes almost cannot be marked.
Many times - even MOST of the time - it cannot be precisely marked.
This is not at all a true representation of Bernstein's relationship with an orchestra. It's at the end of his life after a lot of personal issues, he comes across as arrogant and just mauls the piece. After the conductors that orchestra have played this piece for they are to some extent justified in their arguments.
Strong stuff. You do NOT want to mess with these guys.
It does sound much better than before
I definitely heard the difference the last time. The harmony locked in better and the sound was very unified.
His name was Norman Burgess. Trumpet player with the LSO and teacher at Trinity College of Music, London. A fine musician if ever there was. I was a student there whilst he was teaching. Edward Pascall G.T.C.L. L.T.C.L
He wasn't quite fine enough. Mark Sevel U.P. Y.O.U.R.S.
@@marksevel7696 Mark, that was the most brilliant reply I've ever seen! You must have a monstrous IQ, hehe.
This is the BBC Symphony Orchestra I'm guessing early 1980s. It was the first time Bernstein had conducted them. Trumpeter on left with glasses is Norman Burgess and the one in the middle is Ian MacIntosh (son of the great Cornetist Jack who played in the same orchestra 50 years earlier ). The name of the trumpeter on the right escapes me.
I loved his casual glance at his watch halfway through. Reminds me of watching the CBSO rehearse once, when my wife was in the choir, and bang on 9:30 pm, everyone upped and left(well, I think it was led by the brass and double bass players), even though they were halfway through playing... they won’t play if they’re not being paid....
Profound. In the presence of musical genius. Lenny was correct, and he made all 3 of them sound better! These days, I'm beginning to kick myself for not studying with Lenny when I had the chance nearly 50 years ago!
"Lenny". Lol
Toscanini would have committed multiple atrocious murders by the middle of this short video.
What’s really interesting about this is the classical music world versus the rest of the world… I’m a music teacher and I kind of see both sides actually teach middle school and possibly because of that I have found myself from time to time drifting into UA-cam videos… And then you look at the title “trumpet player disagrees with Leonard Bernstein“… Compared to some of these videos about Karen’s arguing in the street starting fights that’s not exactly a disagreement in my opinion they’re just having a very quiet polite conversation so interesting perspective and poignant contrast I think… LOL....
I reckon he says, “It’s supposed to be our music,” which is consistent with him (Iaan Wilson) being English and the composer (Elgar) also being English.
Oh sh*t. Is that what he said? Meant?
Thanks, because I couldn’t make that out
"I must be unmusical"
Spot on. It's fine to have some pride in your home team, but don't be a twat about it. Like an Austrian musician has more say only when playing Mahler or Mozart...
It’s not “our music”. It’s Elgar’s music. Most of his musical influences were from the Continent anyway. And it’s also the conductor’s prerogative to interpret the music as he likes, regardless of whether he’s from the same country as the composer or not, otherwise they would have hired Sir Colin Davis or some other English conductor. Cultural and nationalistic superiority has no place in music.
El Director y el Músico son de igual importantes, ambos merecen todo el respeto.
The last take sounds better because the film crew pointed the microphones at them by that time.
It must always be possible to discuss and to put own ideas on the table in a polite way. Also when it is Bernstein.
I don't own this...
"Leonard Bernstein's only engagement with the BBC Symphony Orchestra took place in April 1982. It was a troubled time for Great Britain, with the long-running dispute over the Falkland Islands transformed into open war by the Argentinian invasion earlier in the month: the all-out military response ordered by Mrs Thatcher was still to come (a naval task force was on its way to the South Atlantic) when Bernstein conducted this concert at the Royal Festival Hall on 14 April. A few days later, he referred with withering sarcasm to the jingoist spirit of Elgar's patriotic music when (without preliminary rehearsal) he recorded two of the Pomp and Circumstance Marches as fillers to his CD recording of the 'Enigma' Variations, later issued on Deutsche Grammophon.
An East Coast liberal, Bernstein was uneasy about England and its imperialist past. He loved Gilbert and Sullivan operettas and the Listener magazine's crossword puzzles but had hated his first visit to London in 1946. On that occasion (arranged by the music publisher Ralph Hawkes, a friend of his mentor Aaron Copland), Bernstein had conducted the London Philharmonic in six concerts and the newly formed Philharmonia for a recording of Ravel's G Major Piano Concerto that was sufficiently problematic to never be issued in the UK. Bernstein had been ill, lonely, depressed by bomb-ravaged London and unimpressed by the quality of its orchestral musicians. Over the next three decades his London concerts (apart from appearances with the New York Philharmonic on various tours) had all been given with the adventurous London Symphony Orchestra, including a memorable Mahler Eight at the Royal Albert Hall in 1966 and a Stravinsky memorial concert in 1972. For the BBC Symphony Orchestra it was therefore something of a scoop to lure the famous maestro away from the LSO; as a regular member of Bernstein's production team for the previous decade, I was happy to serve as a go-between in the negotiations, which were concluded shortly before I retired from BBC management to concentrate on work as a director. The rehearsal film (shot in BBC TV's Omnibus studio) was one of my first assignments in my new role.
Bernstein, then sixty-three, was well aware of the historic importance of the BBC's flagship orchestra, which had been founded in 1930 under the leadership of Adrian Boult; Sir Adrian was knighted only seven years later for his achievement in establishing the orchestra as one of the UK's leading ensembles. In 1982 it was still admired as a superb instrument for the performance of contemporary music (Bernstein's new symphonic song cycle Songfest was also on the programme) but appeared much less in public than its rivals and no longer boasted such an array of distinguished solo players as in its pre-war glory days, when Arturo Toscanini and Bruno Walter had been among its guest conductors. Despite his own wealth of experience as a visiting maestro, Bernstein got off on the wrong foot with the BBC players by turning up spectacularly late for his first rehearsal, which was held in a television studio; he had done something similar with the LSO back in 1966 when he rehearsed Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony for a memorable Workshop programme. He claimed to have been driven to the wrong BBC studio but the truth was that he had underestimated the time it would take to get to White City from the Savoy ('it's just across the park') and to the despair of his assistant, he set off far too late for the traffic-clogged cross-town journey. To make matters worse, when he finally entered the studio he cut off the speech of welcome being delivered by the leader, Rodney Friend (whom he knew from Mr Friend's previous engagement as concertmaster of the NY Philharmonic), and then launched without apology for his late arrival, of which he seemed to be unaware, into a rambling discourse about his feeling of kinship for the composer whose music he was about to rehearse, Edward Elgar, whom he insisted on calling 'Eddy'. Their principal bond, it seemed, was that they shared a love of word puzzles and anagrams. Through the cameras I could see the orchestra becoming increasingly embarrassed and restless and matters did not improve when Bernstein finally began to make music: Elgar's theme was taken very slowly indeed.
In his sixties, which proved to be the last full decade of his life, Bernstein tended to take slow movements slower and fast movements faster than heretofore. His Enigma interpretation was no exception: he had a virtuoso orchestra at his disposal and he put it through its paces. When Rodney Friend complains at rehearsal that Bernstein was setting 'an impossible tempo' for 'G.R.S.' (Variation XI) the conductor points out that Tempo di molto means very fast and Friend is jokingly urged to 'be a captain' and lead his troops into battle. In truth, the fast movements are actually not excessively fast and in the splendid finale Bernstein observes Elgar's many changes of tempo with the scrupulous devotion he also paid to Mahler's instructions. He reminded his players several times that Elgar's music was in the mainstream of the European tradition, influenced by Schumann and Tchaikovsky as well as Wagner and Elgar's admiring friend Richard Strauss. He drew some exquisite playing from the soloists, notably the first clarinet, Colin Bradbury, but there were several tense moments at the rehearsal, notably when he crossed swords with the trumpet section.
There has been criticism that Bernstein makes some of the slower variations unnecessarily ponderous. In particular, his version of 'Nimrod' (Variation IX) has been held up to disbelief verging on ridicule because in performance it lasts five minutes and fifteen seconds, nearly twice as long as most conductors take it; at the first rehearsal it ran even longer, to almost seven minutes. All I can say by way of justification is that when you see the music as well as hearing it, when you watch on camera the intensity of Bernstein's beat and body language (particularly in the studio rehearsal where he implores the orchestra to 'keep it as pure and noble as you can') you are caught up in this wonderfully spiritual music: after all, Bernstein knew that Elgar aspired here to compose an adagio in the Beethoven tradition - in honour of his best friend, August Jaeger.
In a brief interview with the Omnibus presenter, Barry Norman, Bernstein is asked for his suggestion concerning the identity of the enigma of Elgar's title. At the piano he demonstrates how Elgar's theme can be combined, somewhat tortuously, with 'Auld Lang Syne'; another candidate, 'Rule Britannia', is dismissed as simply not workable as the underlying theme. For Leonard Bernstein, however, the real enigma is how a work which has echoes of so many earlier European composers should come out sounding so British, so personal to Edward Elgar: 'that is the Enigma of Genius'."
Humphrey Burton
It's a London orchestra, they employ the conductor and once in a while they will show it.
It's in the top 50, not in the top 5, they should be grateful to have a Bernstein conducting them...
Do not roll your eyes, and do not argue with the conductor or whoever else is in charge. In worse case scenario, it is grounds for dismissal or other disciplinary action. I did that a couple times in other professional venues and it almost cost me my job. Bottom line - do as you're told and you'll be fine.
And if you want to disagree you can always do so privately after the rehearsal, can't you?
Exactly, it's a much more professional thing to do if you approach your conductor with disagreements. Hopefully within that chat, you'll find a ground both can approve of.
It's being filmed, therefore their professional ability as players is being questioned in public. They naturally want to defend that reputation in front of the cameras. This probably would not have become so confrontational were it not for the cameras.
Mind you it was not that confrontational!
Better to thrash it out it rehearsal and settle any disputes there then..... and not bury it and end up playing a performance with 'unresolved issues'.
and also a pussy
And if you want to lead your own crew, become a conductor and get your own damn Orchestra! Short of that, do what the man says!!
underrated instruments!
Sounded way better after correction
Oh Lord this brings me back to my college music days...trumpets and our big heads!!! LMAO!! One of the trumpets wasn't doing the crescendo in the unison sound he was looking for...sounds like one trumpet when its in tune and done the same as the others...I hear the difference!!! One of the trumpets was out of tune as well
Hours late to rehearsals and picking on marginal differences like this was probably what pissed them off. That was Norman Burgess and Iaan Wilson talking back to him. Top class trumpet players both, although you wouldn't think it by the way he was talking to them. Rather than asking them for the outcome he wanted he verged into telling them how to play their instruments (not really the done thing for a professional orchestra and more suitable for a youth orchestra) and presumably they didn't much care for his interpretation, but that is personal taste. You have to remember that these guys will have played Elgar hundreds of times before.
I get the idea you know what you are talking about and not trying to score brownie points in a dead man's book.
@@SonetLandman nope he's just a clown disrespecting Bernstein
So strange, to play Elgar hundred Times bad...and when comes Bernstein and intonates the C MINOR COLOUR OFTHE CHORD...u the great trumpetist became falsely victimized or stupid and agresive..
@@cosminfaur7318 whatever. In the last run through Bernstein slows down more allowing more growth in the crescendo and a change in timbre as a result. This really doesn't have anything to do with how the players are playing the passage at all, they change very little between each run through other than observing the different tempi. The reality was these guys had been waiting hours for Bernstein to show up late only for him to try and tell them how to play their instruments.
@@unknownkingdom the enigma variations were far from Bernstein's finest recordings. He did not gel well with the BBC symphony orchestra and his interpretation was at times bizarre. His Nimrod is so slow at times that it seems to stagnate. Just listen to Mark Elder and the Hallé play the variations and tell me that Bernstein's interpretation was better. Don't get me wrong, I love some of Bernstein's Mahler symphonies, just think he got it wrong with the Elgar, not least because he failed to build rapport with the orchestra.
1:48 "Really, don`t you hear the difference? Beautiful... you don't"
What does the trumpet player say after that?
Takes me back to HS band, me and the rest of the trumpets always conflicted with the director. Although I think for us it had to do with the fact that our previous director had actually been a trumpet player so he was able to communicate what he needed from us very well, often by actually playing. Our HS director didn’t seem to know what he was asking of us most of the time. Like, I remember being yelled at to keep my bell up super high in concert until he had a judge friend of his sit in on our practice and he told us our bells were much too high and we were fighting the acoustics of the auditorium. Our director from then on completely 180ed on that without an oz of humility. I felt pretty smug that day, lol. But I was a tad bitter about being chastised over it for 3 years. It was quite literally a pain in the neck.