After transcribing over a hundred compositions to MIDI, I'm confident that the single-beat concept doesn't work. The presence of grace notes alone makes it impossible to apply.
Just putting this question out there, regarding metronome. Beethoven, after the metronome came out, considered the word descriptions (adagio, allegro, etc.) to be absurd. And he indicated Hammer with the infamous 138 tempo. So why didn't he apply metronome markings to his subsequent three piano sonatas and used instead the traditional word descriptions?
That is a very good question. There was an initial burst of enthusiasm, and then it waned. It wasn't only Beethoven. For instance, Chopin stopped giving MMs quite early on. Spohr, quoted by Wim at 16:48, metronomised assiduously at first, but his later works seem not to have MMs (from a quick sampling on IMSLP). Even though the initial idea was that MMs would replace the tempo words, in practice most composers also used the tempo words when they gave MMs. Of course, they couldn't assume that everybody owned a metronome - they were quite expensive.
Beethoven might have been deaf, but he was not a 'crazy composer'. I will assume that at the time, the metronome was, like my first metronome, mechanical, therefore visual (pendulum), therefore reliable even if not audible (to Beethoven).
Your agitation is well justified, thanks to pure logic and well grounded and proven musicological research. Waiting for your book. Bravi and thanks for all you and Alberto have done in this most important area of tempo.
tell your students that Beethoven was a crazy composer - lol - and then to add insult to injury discriminate against him because of a hearing disability - as if that must have affected his rational judgment as well - in my book, a perfect example of the academic mindset - full of arrogance and venom, yet all sugar coated with the veneer of institutional authority
Why should you not name the fortepianist, and indeed invite him to respond to your twenty-minute denunciation? You have published a recording taken, presumably without his knowledge, from an online discussion or masterclass. Has he no right of reply? I wonder if this video is entirely ethical. I must say that, although he went a bit over the top about composers being crazy, nothing else struck me as "incredible nonsense", except to a hardline wholebeater insisting pedantically on exactitude.
@@DismasZelenka you realise wim always offers a right of reply in almost all cases he invites people to discuss with him. Clearly this case is different…
@@Ezekiel_Pianist Interesting. I must have missed all those AS videos where he discusses matters with someone he has attacked. Possibly his kind invitations were refused.
Tell Anja I'm sorry that her husband is so passionate about music. Your work is definitely appreciated beyond what you can know. It has planted a seed in people's minds that will grow to discover how tight you are. thank you Wim!
Indeed, when a moment in a piece of classical music gives you 100% joy, then it is usually with slow tempo. Like Emil Gilels playing the 3. movement beginning of the Erzherzog trio.
In a reaction video I found the following argumentation: "people in that period had to play fast because life was so short then". 🤣🤣🤣 Also the remark that the metronome value of the Hammerklavier was only valid for the first bars was included. Brilliant, isn't it?
14:43 Here’s the full quote from Henri Herz: “This instrument [Metronome] whose construction is founded on the division of a minute into a certain number of bars, or times of bars, points out absolute duration with a mathematical precision. The indication is made by a note followed by a figure. The note expresses whatever may be the relative value; and the figure explains how many times this value is contained in the space of a minute. EXAMPLES. Allegro (crotchet= 120). 120 crotchets in a minute. Moderato (quaver=84). 84 quavers in a minute Andantino (dotted crotchet =76) 76 dotted crotchets in a minute. To obtain these different results, it suffices to place, on the figure indicated, the weight fixed to the balance of the metronome in the first of the three movements indicated above, each beat represents a crotchet; in the second, a quaver in the third, a dotted crotchet.” 14:31 Louis Spohr: “Maelzel’s Metronome has met with the greatest approbation; for the last ten or fifteen years, we therefore find it generally annexed to the Italian terms of time. For instance; Andante is fixed by [crotchet] 66 thus four crotchets in the bar of the Andante movement, require four of such beats of Maelzel’s Metronome.” “The last 10 Exercises are to be repeated till the Scholar is enabled to play them […] in correct time. His success in the latter, the master may try by letting him *here and there* play, to the beats of the metronome, but *not too long* as otherwise the playing soon becomes *stiff and awkward* ”
@@petertyrrell3391 Herz says Allegro (noire = 120) means "noires, 120 par minute". Here is the original. Cet instrument dont la construction est basée sur la division d’une minute en un certain nombre de mesures ou de temps de mesures, indique la durée absolue avec une précision mathématique. L’indication se fait par une note suivie d’un chiffre. La note exprime une valeur relative quelconque, et le chiffre énonce combien de fois cette valeur est contenus dans l’espace d’une minute. [Examples as given by the OP] Pour obtenir ces divers résultats, ils suffit de placer, sur le chiffre indiqué, le poids fixé au balancier du métronome: dans le premier des trois mouvements indiqués ci-dessus, chaque battement représentera une noire ; dans le second, une croche ; dans le troisiéme, une noire pointée. Because the number of notes per minute is specified, the word 'battement' means a single click made by a single movement of the metronome arm. The normal meaning of beat, Schlag, battement is a single beat, not a double beat. Tactus was simply a way of dividing a whole note into 2 or into 3 (binary or ternary).
I learned from the last video that the community guidelines here are quite mild that I can call others ‘trolls’ and blame others for lacking of ability to read. I shall keep that in mind for future comment! (Of course I’m sure moderators have missed it as they are busy unfortunately.)
apparently the owner of this channel can also accuse me of using multiple accounts to comment on this video, even before I see it. I wonder what I could gain from that, but who cares?
DAUPRAT Le professeur de musique ou l'enseignement de cet art (1857) CHAPITRE III. "Le lecteur essaiera l’usage du métronome sur les trois mesures principales du deuxième Tableau, en chantant le son unique qu’il présente. Il placera donc le régulateur sur le chiffre écrit au-dessus et en tête de la portée, sachant que le temps du va au vient de chaque oscillation, répond à la durée de la note jointe au chiffre."
In case there is any doubt about the meaning of 'chaque oscillation', consider Dauprat's note:: On est assuré qu’un métronome est exactement réglé d’après la principe de son inventeur, lorsque l’index, (pièce mobile qui glisse le long du blanacier) étant placé sous le no.60, ce balancier fait un nombre semblable d’oscillations par minute, ou, si l’on veut, une oscillation par seconde. Consider also: Allegro, métronome de Maelzel, blanche (half-note) = 84. … lorsqu’on a mis l’index au chiffre indiqué, il ne reste plus qu’à donner l’impulsion au balancier, dont chaque oscillation repondra à la durée de note placée en tête du morceau. Les autres notes seront des doubles, des triples, etc. de la figure donnée, ou des sous-doubles, des sous-triples de cette figure.
@@DismasZelenka I've discussed oscillation with you before, however, I should use example of oscillation of AC current, for a complete cycle...which is also identical to a sine wave. If memory serves me correctly, you maintained that an oscillation of began on each beat of the metronome, which I disagreed...as that would be only half of a cycle in essence 180 degrees, however oscillations require a 360 degree shift from starting point and the back to the starting point., I would suggest you see the example of Alternating Current (AC) - Electrical Engineering Centre has an image, Complete oscillation waves: When an oscillating body starting from a point comes back to the same point from the same direction, then it is called one complete oscillation. The starting point is irrelevant, as shown QS Study Home Physics Complete Oscillation Waves Physics Complete Oscillation Waves Images...as I recall you maintain the click each time was the starting point of the oscillation, while I maintain, that the first click is the starting point, the second click is at 180 degrees, and the return to the starting position which occurs open the third click. Or with a pendulum, whether one begins the swing from either left or right, for example the right, the pendulum performs an oscillation after traveling in its swing to the left and completes the oscillation when it returns to the right. On circuitsgallery how-to-read-an-oscilloscope-screen How to Read an Oscilloscope Graph When viewing an oscilloscope display, start by taking note of key waveform details image, the cycle of a sine which is an oscillation visually presented illustrates the starting point Zero, amplitude (the first part of the cycle then the second part of the cycle and return to starting point across the axis called time back to the starting point) to begin the next illustrated oscillation a 360 degree swing. To summarize the travel of the metronomes oscillation begins at point zero (the first click say at the farthest point (for example the left of the metronome, goes to the right extension and back to left starting point as with a pendulum. That is an oscillation. And there in lies the problem, some maintain that oscillation is one only the half time period in a misunderstanding of the term. Was Beethoven, Schumann, Chopin, Czerny correct in the use of the metronome...and later the change came or loosely associated as a half cycle as an oscillation (if incorrectly)? How does one account for unplayable physiologically, neurologically metronome marks as a later evolution of language or usage. Oscillation refers to the repetitive variation or fluctuation of an object or quantity around a central point or equilibrium position. This motion typically occurs in a regular, periodic manner. And if this change began (although historically or not universally accepted) then why does Marx refer to playing works at twice the speed if unplayable in the single beat system. Oscillation can be observed in a variety of physical systems, such as mechanical systems (e.g., a pendulum), electrical circuits (e.g., alternating current), and even in natural phenomena like sound waves or the motion of molecules. Key characteristics of oscillation include: Periodicity: The motion repeats after a fixed interval of time. Amplitude: The maximum displacement from the equilibrium position. Frequency: The number of complete cycles or oscillations per unit time. Phase: The specific point in the oscillation cycle at any given time. And that is the crux, are the questionable metronome examples of full knowledge of what oscillations versus over time in vernacular usage degraded into another definition for oscillations (scientifically half oscillations)? There's a great deal of difference between the mechanics a free swinging pendulum (no question on oscillation) and a clockwork mechanism of a metronome. However, not all tempi are playable in single beat interpretation for all composers...the converse however converse for composer for unplayable works are playable.
@@georgefoss1824 Louis Francois Dauprat (1781-1868) was a virtuoso horn player who held the professorial chair for horn and cor anglais at the Paris conservatoire from 1816 until his retirement in 1842. Although his general music instruction book was published in 1857, his 'single beat' metronome description is absolutely in accordance with all metronome descriptions since the first introduction of the device. How physicists use words like oscillation or vibration is irrelevant: *musicians* writing about the pendulum or the metronome use these terms to mean a single swing of the arm. If this means that some of Beethoven's metronome marks seem unreasonably fast, it is unreasonable to resolve that problem by cutting tempi in half, like Alexander and the Gordian knot.
Op. 27 nº2 already has millions of recordings in WBMP... Only few attempted to do it in single beat and failed the point... That goes to other Nocturnes. WBMP is less an issue in slow movements... It would be much of a novelty to record them in single beat...
If someone can tell you 'my nonsense makes more sense than his logic because I'm peer-reviewed and he's not', we know that something's gone terribly wrong in the world where we are.
Please clarify: are you saying those 45 performances of the Opus 106, all playing slower than Beethoven's marking, are all invalid? I think we both know that several of them could have achieved 138 if they had wanted to. BTW, I am of the "take-with-grain-of-salt" persuasion in my own compositions. My metronome marking is approximate, so I will write, for example: "quarter note equals 70 approx." One more thing: Beethoven crossed out many of his sketches. Who is to say that he might have wanted to change a metronome marking after the piece was published, but couldn't. That is why looking at metronome markings as iron-clad is putting the performer into a straight-jacket.
@@petertyrrell3391 By what definition of Allegro? 18th century 60 bpm common time no Italian term, 1 1/3 faster in Berlin at the Court of Frederick The Great, Allegro as a term in Italian music, Czerny's observation of Baroque use of the term Allegro was slower than at the time he published his performance edition of J S Bach, which is twice the speed of the Baroque concept of Allegro if in single beat (if playable at all as in the case of the C major invention is completely unplayable, a work for a 12 year old musician learning to perform in a singing (cantabile) style) and why the caution?
Beethoven never heard his music played so fast I’m sure. Pianists are totally out of control. I don’t care how famous they were or are ! Stand back from the music and hear the music in your head. One will be surprised! Everyone please slow down. Op 26 scherzo movt way too fast. Last movt also way too fast. Makes no sense
I believe that your Word with metrónome markings sí excepcional, and i would LinkedIn to congratulate you on the job you have done. I would like to have al the material you promete in your videos and would be grateful Ifigenia you could tell me how i can buey it. Gracias
Keyboard-autocorrect accidents like your comment’s are nothing short of hilarious to me. You should check the address in the Description of this video where they say Check our CD/Vinyl recordings,
Classical musicians are famously lazy, but very good at a limited subset of the discipline, and composers are famously demanding the impossible and commonly considered insane. Ultimately, mathematics governs all notation, I'd hesitate to second-guess the likes of ole' Ludwig. IMO scientific terms that are derived from the SI system are rather unforgiving, in that they are exact within a quantifiable margin. Next will a musician invent a different sized minute to be used for reach era? It would be only fitting. Not to be overlooked, is the fact that one's hearing ability has a sub-zero impact on one's potential ability to count to 60, or 138. it's a good thing UA-cam lets us adjust the tempo to at least approximate whatever we think the tempo should be, individually, at a low low cost of severe auditory confusion and an eerie uncanniness. If you can still hear the difference after a few years in front of the brass, that is. Lastly, with that attitude, why even bother with tuning? Lol. This was fun.
It's good to see you even more impassioned than usual! I'm with you. My only query, which I haven't seen you discuss (maybe I missed it) is the setting and consistency of 19thC metronomes.
A interesting comment from Author, Harpsichordist, and Harpsichord builder, Colin Booth. His book: Did Bach really meant that?; Deceptive notation in Baroque keyboard music should be in the possession of every performer of Baroque music, every student keyboardist (piano, harpsichord, organ, clavichord), every string and wind player, and every music educational institution library. Revealed a great of performance practice (Allemande or Gigues written Duple meters, to be played in triple meter), and much more, and answered questions that I had for many, many decades. Setting and consistency of 19thC metronomes could be checked against clocks (but what does one check clocks against? the church bells ringing the Angelus?). Stopwatches arrive as the first major public showcase of the "Chronograph" invention after King Louis XVIII of France wanted to know how fast his horses are running around the racetrack before his death in 1824. After considerable work, inventor Nicolas Mathieu Rieussec finished his work and used his Chronograph during the famous Champ de Mars horse race event (Port Louis, Mauritius which began in 1812), enabling officials, present public and royal guest to see run times for each horse in the race. This successful showcasing of stopwatch solidified Nicolas Mathieu Rieussec as the “father of the (stopdwatch) chronograph." But this begs the question which year did this occur, as Wenkel invents the mechanism that made the Metronome possible 1814, Maezel adds the scale and unlike Wenkel) patents the device in 1815 and promotes the Metronome vigorously.
'Did Bach really meant that?' is a great book indeed, I have it. When I bought it, it came in a special offer with Colin's Goldberg Variations recording, one of my favourite harpsichord renditions of that work.
I think you talk about the metronome too often. I do often listen, because I find you an exceptionally likable person and I agree with you. I think you should compare it to the conductor’s baton more often rather than just the pendulum. I like discussions about instrument makers of period instruments. Okay also this one is pretty interesting. This is a good one.
Appreciate your feedback. Interesting connection to the baton of a conductor but think also about how people in those early metronome days conducted orchestras. Not like today!
J S Bach and Handel did not use Batons, they lead from either a harpsichord or organ, although J S Bach preferred to conduct from a Viola. Some illustrations have shown a score rolled like a rolled newspaper. Lully beat a staff on the ground (and the composer conductor kicked a pregnant singer in the stomach) received his comeuppance, when he accidentally stabbed himself with the staff in his foot and most likely died of Tetanus or Gangrene. Other orchestras used a violin bow. Haydn conducted with either his hand or a baton conflicting comments (maybe both) in the 1798 In the first performance Creation. D G Tuerk in 1810, so athletically struck a chandelier periodically that caused a shower with glass. Louis Spohr introduced the baton to England in 1820 or so he claimed. Whether this was initially accepted, 12 years later Mendelssohn conducted with a baton despite objections of the violin section leaders. Choir directors I sung for generally used their hands universally, except when a full orchestra.
@@Renshen1957 The custom was for the leader of the violins to give the time with the bow. This is what Spohr did initially when he was appointed director of opera and music at Frankfort (1817-1819), but after careful coaching of the players, "I now laid the violin aside and directed in the French style, with the baton." As for the manner of beating time, Spohr gives a clear account, with diagrams, in his 1832 Violin School, pp.31-32. The patterns are the same as modern ones, i.e. one arm movement per beat, and they go back at least to the 18th century, when, e.g., Choquel describes them in the same way as Spohr (Henri Louis Choquel, La Musique rendue sensible par la méchanique, 1759, Chap. VI, Ordre des battements des temps).
@@DismasZelenka Did you see the @claudiobarnabe5403 reply? "DAUPRAT Le professeur de musique ou l'enseignement de cet art (1857) CHAPITRE III. "Le lecteur essaiera l’usage du métronome sur les trois mesures principales du deuxième Tableau, en chantant le son unique qu’il présente. Il placera donc le régulateur sur le chiffre écrit au-dessus et en tête de la portée, sachant que le temps du va au vient de chaque oscillation, répond à la durée de la note jointe au chiffre." You might want to double check the source, this being out of my league as French had little interest except a fellow pianist, and no possibility of passing. (The French language first year class (singular) in my High School was only offered once a day, at a time period (there were two) which was scheduled for my Lunch break (yes the facilities had a large student body, by necessity and facility over two time lunch periods-while classes ran concurrently). Likewise, my maternal English grandmother who was fluent in French and German (she tracked down German agents of all nationalities other than English, in England during World War II, particularly those posing as Englishmen, by an interesting method, if you are interested, probably not, I would gladly share) died during this time which wouldn't have helped, even if I had skipped lunch to attend (which wasn't an option). I had taken German, as I could already read the first year book without any assistance before I had a lesson, and as the school graded on the curve, and 60% off the student body already were fluent in Spanish. Ergo I could have made A grade marks in Northern California as my sisters had, which would have resulted in a D- grade based on the curve. One had to pass two years of a foreign language with an A grade for the University of California admission requirements. Also, I wanted to read Spitta's biography of J S Bach (it wasn't discredited at that time) and Albert Schweizer's J. S. Bach: Le Musicien-Poète also available in a German translation.) To make this relevant to music Der Handschuh by Schiller was set to music by Robert Schumann 1850. This was mentioned in my German class as translated "Shiller's glove (Handschuh) doesn't cover Goether's Fist (Faust). The majority of the class didn't comprehend what our teacher said, of the friendly competition in 1797 between the two which is considered as the genesis of both. My life would have been different if I had convinced sufficient students to attend a class in Mandarin Chinese, as Mr. Venturini, besides all the Latin languages, Greek, German, also fluently spoke Mandarin and all perfectly, but his English had such a think Italian accent the majority of students failed as they couldn't understand him, he may have also spoken Russian, but that was the Chemistry Teachers domain, and the French teacher also taught Latin and Greek.
Thank you for the video, Wim. I wouldn't call the response by that teacher "shocking", I would use "disgraceful" instead. As you said, a simple "I don't know (off hand), I'll look into this and get back to you" would be a MUCH better response. There's one minor thing I'd like to say about your justified reaction to what the person said. When they mentioned that they wouldn't care much if it was played 3 or 4 marks slower or faster, I believe they meant the marks on the metronome arm, and not single beats per minute. Translating to the Hammerklavier's M.M. of the first movement, that'd imply this person would find a tempo in the range of H=120 to 160 acceptable (or 116 to 168 if 4 marks were taken).
It would also mean that Claudio Abbado's tempo for the last movement of the 8th symphony (72 according to Mr Winters) is only 3 marks lower than Beethoven' 84. So the unnamed Professor is not contradicting himself. Perhaps he had not heard Paavo Järvi with the Deutsche KammerOrchester Bremen reaching 84. Of course that is a chamber orchestra, so faster tempi are more feasible. Abbado had the full Berlin Philharmonic to deal with.
Oh, the vitriol directed at you...terrible really. My view is that you are presenting a case which you seek to substantiate with historical records. What you are responded to with is ahistorical unhappiness. Many of your detractors live in mental prisons from which they cannot place a single mental toe. I am amazed at the intolerance.
You think it is stupid and played with no emotion? I disagree - though I note that he has perversely decided to play the Allegro ma non troppo section Presto, and the Presto section only slightly faster. But then, Moscheles gave the MM for Allegro ma non troppo as quarter = 152, and for the Presto half = 100, and Fazil Say (at least get his name right) is more or less at those speeds.
@ his performance is laughably too fast. Let me ask you something. When is too fast too fast. Only 1 piece ever written could be at breakneck speed. Filght of the bumble bee. He’d be great at that. Rubinstein s fast is today’s slow. But he was a legend. Interesting
@@paulcapaccio9905 I think this channel has suggested Rimsky-Korsakov was a double beat composer. Perhaps bumblebees buzzed a lot more slowly back then, simpler times after all.
What about other instruments? Until now you've only used the piano as your main instrument to elaborate the point of WMBT, and I get it, it's only natural since you're a pianist, but what about other instruments? Whats going on there? I'm sure there should be a ton of evidence there too.
You could start with Quantz, he had the speed limit for the Baroque Transverse Flute, however, there was common knowledge that the Berlin court played 1 1/3 faster than most elsewhere in German speaking leans (The collection of Princedoms, Dukedoms, Kingdoms, Electors, etc. and in addition the Austrian Hungary Empire lands that spoke German, which I might point out that Franz Liszt, even though he was Hungarian, spoke German as his first language, or the Ancestor of the Bach lineage the miller Veit Bach was in Hungary, but spoke German as the family was originally German immigrants, who returned to German Speaking lands, Germany didn't exist as a Nation State didn't exist until 1870's)...
here: ua-cam.com/video/Quw4pJCt_Mw/v-deo.html and beethoven symphony 9- there is not a single problem there, on the contrary, singers finally can breath. (since they have time)
@@AuthenticSound Yes, they can breathe because they simply do not hold the notes accurately to their full, proper duration. They’re shortening each of the note values in order to be able to breathe, and in result keep taking a breath where the sound should still last. That’s the whole “secret”.
No! It’s just an imperial spoil laundering scheme! People invented instruments and printed thousands of copies of music, while making the task of playing it as hard as possible. Which of course would cross into the impossible as a free market fantasy.
All this metronome crazyness simply because you can't play fast. Virtuoso composers like Chopin and Mendelssohn actually played FASTER because their piano action was lighter! Playing music at MM144 is not a big deal when you build your technique sufficiently and almost everyone can do that with patient practice. Anyone with two healthy hands and functioning fingers. Even people with somewhat poor techniques still manage.
144... yes. Where do I even start? Well, look at some MMs yourself and while doing that, think about the fact that according to your "opinion", no human being apparently has "two healthy hands and functioning fingers." Not by my "logic". By yours
@@ExtraCrispyBits Yes, they do. Why don't you listen to some recordings by professional fortepianists? Petra Somlai, Erik Zivian, Else Biesemans, Kristian Bezuidenhout.
@@DismasZelenka I can find no examples of them playing at, or faster than marked tempi. Fast, yes, at marked tempo, no. Do you have any particular examples? I'd love to hear them!
@@ExtraCrispyBits Not offhand, if it is only fast movements that interest you. I seem to remember listening to concertos by Hummel (fortepiano) and Spohr (violin) and noting that the allegro movements matched the MMs given by those composers. Fun to explore, anyway, and even better without constantly thinking about metronomes.
Let’s assume Beethoven’s metronome was as accurate as modern metronomes are, if you think like a composer: the metronome mark represents the tempo at which the composer conceived the piece, the tempo at which he heard the melody or chord progression etc. This is an ideal. It’s wholly irrelevant whether the music is playable, if that’s the tempo at which the composer heard the music in his head. It’s then up to the composer to amend the MM if they get complaints of “unplayability” from musicians. What’s more authentic, the MM at which the work was originally conceived (something to aspire to) (which I imagine was the case for the Hammerklavier) or the MM that was a change to make the work “playable.”
The composers themselves have written, quite clearly, that you must play the piece at the tempo written. An interesting idea, however they did clarify this
@@DismasZelenka Well as to the 9th Symphony of Beethoven, Beethoven although "deaf" played the music and Karl set the Metronome at the speed his uncle played. Beethoven could tell if string players were dragging the tempo, by the bowing...
A fair comparison. Impassioned, intelligent, and over and over proven correct over time, despite being insulted endlessly by the status quo. This is not the insult you think it is
@ you’re completely unreasonable. Composers 200 years ago weren’t writing for the best of the best of the best performers in the 21st-century. You’re ridiculous.
After transcribing over a hundred compositions to MIDI, I'm confident that the single-beat concept doesn't work. The presence of grace notes alone makes it impossible to apply.
Just putting this question out there, regarding metronome. Beethoven, after the metronome came out, considered the word descriptions (adagio, allegro, etc.) to be absurd. And he indicated Hammer with the infamous 138 tempo. So why didn't he apply metronome markings to his subsequent three piano sonatas and used instead the traditional word descriptions?
That is a very good question. There was an initial burst of enthusiasm, and then it waned. It wasn't only Beethoven. For instance, Chopin stopped giving MMs quite early on. Spohr, quoted by Wim at 16:48, metronomised assiduously at first, but his later works seem not to have MMs (from a quick sampling on IMSLP). Even though the initial idea was that MMs would replace the tempo words, in practice most composers also used the tempo words when they gave MMs. Of course, they couldn't assume that everybody owned a metronome - they were quite expensive.
@@DismasZelenka Very interesting. Thank you.
Beethoven might have been deaf, but he was not a 'crazy composer'. I will assume that at the time, the metronome was, like my first metronome, mechanical, therefore visual (pendulum), therefore reliable even if not audible (to Beethoven).
Your agitation is well justified, thanks to pure logic and well grounded and proven musicological research. Waiting for your book. Bravi and thanks for all you and Alberto have done in this most important area of tempo.
tell your students that Beethoven was a crazy composer - lol - and then to add insult to injury discriminate against him because of a hearing disability - as if that must have affected his rational judgment as well - in my book, a perfect example of the academic mindset - full of arrogance and venom, yet all sugar coated with the veneer of institutional authority
Why should you not name the fortepianist, and indeed invite him to respond to your twenty-minute denunciation? You have published a recording taken, presumably without his knowledge, from an online discussion or masterclass. Has he no right of reply? I wonder if this video is entirely ethical.
I must say that, although he went a bit over the top about composers being crazy, nothing else struck me as "incredible nonsense", except to a hardline wholebeater insisting pedantically on exactitude.
@@DismasZelenka you realise wim always offers a right of reply in almost all cases he invites people to discuss with him. Clearly this case is different…
@@Ezekiel_Pianist Interesting. I must have missed all those AS videos where he discusses matters with someone he has attacked. Possibly his kind invitations were refused.
I’m not out of line in saying that you are crazy, though,
Tell Anja I'm sorry that her husband is so passionate about music. Your work is definitely appreciated beyond what you can know. It has planted a seed in people's minds that will grow to discover how tight you are.
thank you Wim!
It is an honour to have such knowledge given to us so freely.
Indeed, when a moment in a piece of classical music gives you 100% joy, then it is usually with slow tempo. Like Emil Gilels playing the 3. movement beginning of the Erzherzog trio.
In a reaction video I found the following argumentation: "people in that period had to play fast because life was so short then". 🤣🤣🤣 Also the remark that the metronome value of the Hammerklavier was only valid for the first bars was included. Brilliant, isn't it?
14:43 Here’s the full quote from Henri Herz:
“This instrument [Metronome] whose construction is founded on the division of a minute into a certain number of bars, or times of bars, points out absolute duration with a mathematical precision. The indication is made by a note followed by a figure.
The note expresses whatever may be the relative value; and the figure explains how many times this value is contained in the space of a minute.
EXAMPLES.
Allegro (crotchet= 120).
120 crotchets in a minute.
Moderato (quaver=84). 84 quavers in a minute
Andantino (dotted crotchet =76)
76 dotted crotchets in a minute.
To obtain these different results, it suffices to place, on the figure indicated, the weight fixed to the balance of the metronome in the first of the three movements indicated above, each beat represents a crotchet; in the second, a quaver in the third, a dotted crotchet.”
14:31 Louis Spohr:
“Maelzel’s Metronome has met with the greatest approbation; for the last ten or fifteen years, we therefore find it generally annexed to the Italian terms of time. For instance; Andante is fixed by [crotchet] 66 thus four crotchets in the bar of the Andante movement, require four of such beats of Maelzel’s Metronome.”
“The last 10 Exercises are to be repeated till the Scholar is enabled to play them […] in correct time. His success in the latter, the master may try by letting him *here and there* play, to the beats of the metronome, but *not too long* as otherwise the playing soon becomes *stiff and awkward* ”
Don't forget "Takt" could also mean "Tactus" as does "Schlag" or "Beat".
@PatSmith-h6s Check the original language.
@@petertyrrell3391 Herz says Allegro (noire = 120) means "noires, 120 par minute".
Here is the original.
Cet instrument dont la construction est basée sur la division d’une minute en un certain nombre de mesures ou de temps de mesures, indique la durée absolue avec une précision mathématique.
L’indication se fait par une note suivie d’un chiffre. La note exprime une valeur relative quelconque, et le chiffre énonce combien de fois cette valeur est contenus dans l’espace d’une minute. [Examples as given by the OP]
Pour obtenir ces divers résultats, ils suffit de placer, sur le chiffre indiqué, le poids fixé au balancier du métronome: dans le premier des trois mouvements indiqués ci-dessus, chaque battement représentera une noire ; dans le second, une croche ; dans le troisiéme, une noire pointée.
Because the number of notes per minute is specified, the word 'battement' means a single click made by a single movement of the metronome arm. The normal meaning of beat, Schlag, battement is a single beat, not a double beat. Tactus was simply a way of dividing a whole note into 2 or into 3 (binary or ternary).
You can’t ignore that this just does not work. It’s like you’ve got your fingers in your ears, saying la la la la la. You’re not solving anything.
@ blah blah blah. Show us the music.
I learned from the last video that the community guidelines here are quite mild that I can call others ‘trolls’ and blame others for lacking of ability to read. I shall keep that in mind for future comment! (Of course I’m sure moderators have missed it as they are busy unfortunately.)
apparently the owner of this channel can also accuse me of using multiple accounts to comment on this video, even before I see it.
I wonder what I could gain from that, but who cares?
Unless you constantly read comments, you just proved my point :-)
Not sure how did he prove your point, but anyway you read my comment then I will take that as approval…
@@minkyukim0204 I guess that if one second can equal more seconds, one account can equal several. Metrical accounts?
DAUPRAT Le professeur de musique ou l'enseignement de cet art (1857)
CHAPITRE III.
"Le lecteur essaiera l’usage du métronome sur les trois mesures principales du deuxième Tableau, en chantant le son unique qu’il présente. Il placera donc le régulateur sur le chiffre écrit au-dessus et en tête de la portée, sachant que le temps du va au vient de chaque oscillation, répond à la durée de la note jointe au chiffre."
Wow!
Dauprat has a prominent place in our book - good find!
In case there is any doubt about the meaning of 'chaque oscillation', consider Dauprat's note::
On est assuré qu’un métronome est exactement réglé d’après la principe de son inventeur, lorsque l’index, (pièce mobile qui glisse le long du blanacier) étant placé sous le no.60, ce balancier fait un nombre semblable d’oscillations par minute, ou, si l’on veut, une oscillation par seconde.
Consider also: Allegro, métronome de Maelzel, blanche (half-note) = 84. … lorsqu’on a mis l’index au chiffre indiqué, il ne reste plus qu’à donner l’impulsion au balancier, dont chaque oscillation repondra à la durée de note placée en tête du morceau. Les autres notes seront des doubles, des triples, etc. de la figure donnée, ou des sous-doubles, des sous-triples de cette figure.
@@DismasZelenka I've discussed oscillation with you before, however, I should use example of oscillation of AC current, for a complete cycle...which is also identical to a sine wave. If memory serves me correctly, you maintained that an oscillation of began on each beat of the metronome, which I disagreed...as that would be only half of a cycle in essence 180 degrees, however oscillations require a 360 degree shift from starting point and the back to the starting point., I would suggest you see the example of Alternating Current (AC) - Electrical Engineering Centre has an image, Complete oscillation waves: When an oscillating body starting from a point comes back to the same point from the same direction, then it is called one complete oscillation. The starting point is irrelevant, as shown QS Study Home Physics Complete Oscillation Waves
Physics Complete Oscillation Waves Images...as I recall you maintain the click each time was the starting point of the oscillation, while I maintain, that the first click is the starting point, the second click is at 180 degrees, and the return to the starting position which occurs open the third click. Or with a pendulum, whether one begins the swing from either left or right, for example the right, the pendulum performs an oscillation after traveling in its swing to the left and completes the oscillation when it returns to the right.
On circuitsgallery how-to-read-an-oscilloscope-screen How to Read an Oscilloscope Graph When viewing an oscilloscope display, start by taking note of key waveform details image, the cycle of a sine which is an oscillation visually presented illustrates the starting point Zero, amplitude (the first part of the cycle then the second part of the cycle and return to starting point across the axis called time back to the starting point) to begin the next illustrated oscillation a 360 degree swing.
To summarize the travel of the metronomes oscillation begins at point zero (the first click say at the farthest point (for example the left of the metronome, goes to the right extension and back to left starting point as with a pendulum. That is an oscillation. And there in lies the problem, some maintain that oscillation is one only the half time period in a misunderstanding of the term. Was Beethoven, Schumann, Chopin, Czerny correct in the use of the metronome...and later the change came or loosely associated as a half cycle as an oscillation (if incorrectly)?
How does one account for unplayable physiologically, neurologically metronome marks as a later evolution of language or usage. Oscillation refers to the repetitive variation or fluctuation of an object or quantity around a central point or equilibrium position. This motion typically occurs in a regular, periodic manner.
And if this change began (although historically or not universally accepted) then why does Marx refer to playing works at twice the speed if unplayable in the single beat system.
Oscillation can be observed in a variety of physical systems, such as mechanical systems (e.g., a pendulum), electrical circuits (e.g., alternating current), and even in natural phenomena like sound waves or the motion of molecules.
Key characteristics of oscillation include:
Periodicity: The motion repeats after a fixed interval of time.
Amplitude: The maximum displacement from the equilibrium position.
Frequency: The number of complete cycles or oscillations per unit time.
Phase: The specific point in the oscillation cycle at any given time.
And that is the crux, are the questionable metronome examples of full knowledge of what oscillations versus over time in vernacular usage degraded into another definition for oscillations (scientifically half oscillations)?
There's a great deal of difference between the mechanics a free swinging pendulum (no question on oscillation) and a clockwork mechanism of a metronome.
However, not all tempi are playable in single beat interpretation for all composers...the converse however converse for composer for unplayable works are playable.
@@georgefoss1824 Louis Francois Dauprat (1781-1868) was a virtuoso horn player who held the professorial chair for horn and cor anglais at the Paris conservatoire from 1816 until his retirement in 1842. Although his general music instruction book was published in 1857, his 'single beat' metronome description is absolutely in accordance with all metronome descriptions since the first introduction of the device. How physicists use words like oscillation or vibration is irrelevant: *musicians* writing about the pendulum or the metronome use these terms to mean a single swing of the arm. If this means that some of Beethoven's metronome marks seem unreasonably fast, it is unreasonable to resolve that problem by cutting tempi in half, like Alexander and the Gordian knot.
how about recording the chopin nocturnes in whole beat? i bet it would be amazing
5 cds are waiting to be released!
Op. 27 nº2 already has millions of recordings in WBMP... Only few attempted to do it in single beat and failed the point... That goes to other Nocturnes. WBMP is less an issue in slow movements... It would be much of a novelty to record them in single beat...
If someone can tell you 'my nonsense makes more sense than his logic because I'm peer-reviewed and he's not', we know that something's gone terribly wrong in the world where we are.
these crazy composers...
Brilliant, Wim!
Please clarify: are you saying those 45 performances of the Opus 106, all playing slower than Beethoven's marking, are all invalid? I think we both know that several of them could have achieved 138 if they had wanted to. BTW, I am of the "take-with-grain-of-salt" persuasion in my own compositions. My metronome marking is approximate, so I will write, for example: "quarter note equals 70 approx." One more thing: Beethoven crossed out many of his sketches. Who is to say that he might have wanted to change a metronome marking after the piece was published, but couldn't. That is why looking at metronome markings as iron-clad is putting the performer into a straight-jacket.
If anyone could play it at 138, it would not have the character of an "Allegro".
None of those are playing slower than Beethoven’s marking. That’s the point.
@@petertyrrell3391What? You’re saying it’s in the character of the term Allegro to make a piece unplayable? It makes no sense.
@@petertyrrell3391 By what definition of Allegro? 18th century 60 bpm common time no Italian term, 1 1/3 faster in Berlin at the Court of Frederick The Great, Allegro as a term in Italian music, Czerny's observation of Baroque use of the term Allegro was slower than at the time he published his performance edition of J S Bach, which is twice the speed of the Baroque concept of Allegro if in single beat (if playable at all as in the case of the C major invention is completely unplayable, a work for a 12 year old musician learning to perform in a singing (cantabile) style) and why the caution?
@@MyMusicGenesis I think you need a refresher course of metronome speeds...didn't you perceive the different speeds of tempi
Beethoven never heard his music played so fast I’m sure. Pianists are totally out of control. I don’t care how famous they were or are ! Stand back from the music and hear the music in your head. One will be surprised! Everyone please slow down. Op 26 scherzo movt way too fast. Last movt also way too fast. Makes no sense
I hope Anja didn't cook another word salad... 😃
I believe that your Word with metrónome markings sí excepcional, and i would LinkedIn to congratulate you on the job you have done. I would like to have al the material you promete in your videos and would be grateful Ifigenia you could tell me how i can buey it. Gracias
And i would like to…
Keyboard-autocorrect accidents like your comment’s are nothing short of hilarious to me. You should check the address in the Description of this video where they say Check our CD/Vinyl recordings,
thanks! just check our website www.authenticsound.org
Loving the notation course! I cannot understand the thought process in this professor, it seems so lazy.
Classical musicians are famously lazy, but very good at a limited subset of the discipline, and composers are famously demanding the impossible and commonly considered insane.
Ultimately, mathematics governs all notation, I'd hesitate to second-guess the likes of ole' Ludwig.
IMO scientific terms that are derived from the SI system are rather unforgiving, in that they are exact within a quantifiable margin.
Next will a musician invent a different sized minute to be used for reach era? It would be only fitting.
Not to be overlooked, is the fact that one's hearing ability has a sub-zero impact on one's potential ability to count to 60, or 138.
it's a good thing UA-cam lets us adjust the tempo to at least approximate whatever we think the tempo should be, individually, at a low low cost of severe auditory confusion and an eerie uncanniness. If you can still hear the difference after a few years in front of the brass, that is.
Lastly, with that attitude, why even bother with tuning? Lol.
This was fun.
It's good to see you even more impassioned than usual! I'm with you. My only query, which I haven't seen you discuss (maybe I missed it) is the setting and consistency of 19thC metronomes.
A interesting comment from Author, Harpsichordist, and Harpsichord builder, Colin Booth. His book: Did Bach really meant that?; Deceptive notation in Baroque keyboard music should be in the possession of every performer of Baroque music, every student keyboardist (piano, harpsichord, organ, clavichord), every string and wind player, and every music educational institution library. Revealed a great of performance practice (Allemande or Gigues written Duple meters, to be played in triple meter), and much more, and answered questions that I had for many, many decades.
Setting and consistency of 19thC metronomes could be checked against clocks (but what does one check clocks against? the church bells ringing the Angelus?). Stopwatches arrive as the first major public showcase of the "Chronograph" invention after King Louis XVIII of France wanted to know how fast his horses are running around the racetrack before his death in 1824.
After considerable work, inventor Nicolas Mathieu Rieussec finished his work and used his Chronograph during the famous Champ de Mars horse race event (Port Louis, Mauritius which began in 1812), enabling officials, present public and royal guest to see run times for each horse in the race. This successful showcasing of stopwatch solidified Nicolas Mathieu Rieussec as the “father of the (stopdwatch) chronograph." But this begs the question which year did this occur, as Wenkel invents the mechanism that made the Metronome possible 1814, Maezel adds the scale and unlike Wenkel) patents the device in 1815 and promotes the Metronome vigorously.
@@Renshen1957 As usual, you have added pertinent and useful info to my limited knowledge. thanks!
'Did Bach really meant that?' is a great book indeed, I have it. When I bought it, it came in a special offer with Colin's Goldberg Variations recording, one of my favourite harpsichord renditions of that work.
@@theclavierist All such offerings gratefully received! The book is still available, including from my site. Thanks!
Who recorded this set of Beethoven symphonies that he is aimlessly waving here 28:03. ?
Czerny 4 hand transcriptions he recorded with Alberto Sanna.
www.authenticsound.org/shop
I think you talk about the metronome too often. I do often listen, because I find you an exceptionally likable person and I agree with you. I think you should compare it to the conductor’s baton more often rather than just the pendulum. I like discussions about instrument makers of period instruments. Okay also this one is pretty interesting. This is a good one.
Appreciate your feedback. Interesting connection to the baton of a conductor but think also about how people in those early metronome days conducted orchestras. Not like today!
J S Bach and Handel did not use Batons, they lead from either a harpsichord or organ, although J S Bach preferred to conduct from a Viola. Some illustrations have shown a score rolled like a rolled newspaper. Lully beat a staff on the ground (and the composer conductor kicked a pregnant singer in the stomach) received his comeuppance, when he accidentally stabbed himself with the staff in his foot and most likely died of Tetanus or Gangrene. Other orchestras used a violin bow.
Haydn conducted with either his hand or a baton conflicting comments (maybe both) in the 1798 In the first performance Creation. D G Tuerk in 1810, so athletically struck a chandelier periodically that caused a shower with glass. Louis Spohr introduced the baton to England in 1820 or so he claimed. Whether this was initially accepted, 12 years later Mendelssohn conducted with a baton despite objections of the violin section leaders.
Choir directors I sung for generally used their hands universally, except when a full orchestra.
@@Renshen1957 The custom was for the leader of the violins to give the time with the bow. This is what Spohr did initially when he was appointed director of opera and music at Frankfort (1817-1819), but after careful coaching of the players, "I now laid the violin aside and directed in the French style, with the baton." As for the manner of beating time, Spohr gives a clear account, with diagrams, in his 1832 Violin School, pp.31-32. The patterns are the same as modern ones, i.e. one arm movement per beat, and they go back at least to the 18th century, when, e.g., Choquel describes them in the same way as Spohr (Henri Louis Choquel, La Musique rendue sensible par la méchanique, 1759, Chap. VI, Ordre des battements des temps).
@ Thank you for the complete explanation and historical background.
@@DismasZelenka Did you see the @claudiobarnabe5403 reply?
"DAUPRAT Le professeur de musique ou l'enseignement de cet art (1857) CHAPITRE III.
"Le lecteur essaiera l’usage du métronome sur les trois mesures principales du deuxième Tableau, en chantant le son unique qu’il présente. Il placera donc le régulateur sur le chiffre écrit au-dessus et en tête de la portée, sachant que le temps du va au vient de chaque oscillation, répond à la durée de la note jointe au chiffre."
You might want to double check the source, this being out of my league as French had little interest except a fellow pianist, and no possibility of passing.
(The French language first year class (singular) in my High School was only offered once a day, at a time period (there were two) which was scheduled for my Lunch break (yes the facilities had a large student body, by necessity and facility over two time lunch periods-while classes ran concurrently). Likewise, my maternal English grandmother who was fluent in French and German (she tracked down German agents of all nationalities other than English, in England during World War II, particularly those posing as Englishmen, by an interesting method, if you are interested, probably not, I would gladly share) died during this time which wouldn't have helped, even if I had skipped lunch to attend (which wasn't an option).
I had taken German, as I could already read the first year book without any assistance before I had a lesson, and as the school graded on the curve, and 60% off the student body already were fluent in Spanish. Ergo I could have made A grade marks in Northern California as my sisters had, which would have resulted in a D- grade based on the curve. One had to pass two years of a foreign language with an A grade for the University of California admission requirements. Also, I wanted to read Spitta's biography of J S Bach (it wasn't discredited at that time) and Albert Schweizer's J. S. Bach: Le Musicien-Poète also available in a German translation.)
To make this relevant to music Der Handschuh by Schiller was set to music by Robert Schumann 1850. This was mentioned in my German class as translated "Shiller's glove (Handschuh) doesn't cover Goether's Fist (Faust). The majority of the class didn't comprehend what our teacher said, of the friendly competition in 1797 between the two which is considered as the genesis of both. My life would have been different if I had convinced sufficient students to attend a class in Mandarin Chinese, as Mr. Venturini, besides all the Latin languages, Greek, German, also fluently spoke Mandarin and all perfectly, but his English had such a think Italian accent the majority of students failed as they couldn't understand him, he may have also spoken Russian, but that was the Chemistry Teachers domain, and the French teacher also taught Latin and Greek.
Thank you for the video, Wim. I wouldn't call the response by that teacher "shocking", I would use "disgraceful" instead. As you said, a simple "I don't know (off hand), I'll look into this and get back to you" would be a MUCH better response.
There's one minor thing I'd like to say about your justified reaction to what the person said. When they mentioned that they wouldn't care much if it was played 3 or 4 marks slower or faster, I believe they meant the marks on the metronome arm, and not single beats per minute. Translating to the Hammerklavier's M.M. of the first movement, that'd imply this person would find a tempo in the range of H=120 to 160 acceptable (or 116 to 168 if 4 marks were taken).
It would also mean that Claudio Abbado's tempo for the last movement of the 8th symphony (72 according to Mr Winters) is only 3 marks lower than Beethoven' 84. So the unnamed Professor is not contradicting himself. Perhaps he had not heard Paavo Järvi with the Deutsche KammerOrchester Bremen reaching 84. Of course that is a chamber orchestra, so faster tempi are more feasible. Abbado had the full Berlin Philharmonic to deal with.
Whycare all your examples from 19th century? What about modern composers like Strauss, Brahms, Bartok, etc.?
Oh, the vitriol directed at you...terrible really. My view is that you are presenting a case which you seek to substantiate with historical records. What you are responded to with is ahistorical unhappiness. Many of your detractors live in mental prisons from which they cannot place a single mental toe. I am amazed at the intolerance.
Shakira was wrong about HIPs not lying? There’s a joke somewhere with AS, I guess… LOL I’ll show my way out for distaste,
Another excellent video, great work, Wim!
Want to her something stupid ? Listen to Op 57. Apassionata last movt played by Fazio Say. Ridiculous No music. Pure speed and noise. No emotion .
You think it is stupid and played with no emotion? I disagree - though I note that he has perversely decided to play the Allegro ma non troppo section Presto, and the Presto section only slightly faster. But then, Moscheles gave the MM for Allegro ma non troppo as quarter = 152, and for the Presto half = 100, and Fazil Say (at least get his name right) is more or less at those speeds.
@ his performance is laughably too fast. Let me ask you something. When is too fast too fast. Only 1 piece ever written could be at breakneck speed. Filght of the bumble bee. He’d be great at that. Rubinstein s fast is today’s slow. But he was a legend. Interesting
@@paulcapaccio9905 I think this channel has suggested Rimsky-Korsakov was a double beat composer. Perhaps bumblebees buzzed a lot more slowly back then, simpler times after all.
What about other instruments? Until now you've only used the piano as your main instrument to elaborate the point of WMBT, and I get it, it's only natural since you're a pianist, but what about other instruments? Whats going on there? I'm sure there should be a ton of evidence there too.
yeah, I imagine bowed instruments must have a lot of fun playing at half the written tempo like this jabroni wants them to lol
You could start with Quantz, he had the speed limit for the Baroque Transverse Flute, however, there was common knowledge that the Berlin court played 1 1/3 faster than most elsewhere in German speaking leans (The collection of Princedoms, Dukedoms, Kingdoms, Electors, etc. and in addition the Austrian Hungary Empire lands that spoke German, which I might point out that Franz Liszt, even though he was Hungarian, spoke German as his first language, or the Ancestor of the Bach lineage the miller Veit Bach was in Hungary, but spoke German as the family was originally German immigrants, who returned to German Speaking lands, Germany didn't exist as a Nation State didn't exist until 1870's)...
here: ua-cam.com/video/Quw4pJCt_Mw/v-deo.html and beethoven symphony 9- there is not a single problem there, on the contrary, singers finally can breath. (since they have time)
@@AuthenticSound Yes, they can breathe because they simply do not hold the notes accurately to their full, proper duration. They’re shortening each of the note values in order to be able to breathe, and in result keep taking a breath where the sound should still last. That’s the whole “secret”.
No! It’s just an imperial spoil laundering scheme! People invented instruments and printed thousands of copies of music, while making the task of playing it as hard as possible. Which of course would cross into the impossible as a free market fantasy.
Ok, not even as that scheme it makes sense, for people should have been sick in the head to expect demand for all that jazz,
How was dinner, Wim?
very nice :-)
All this metronome crazyness simply because you can't play fast. Virtuoso composers like Chopin and Mendelssohn actually played FASTER because their piano action was lighter! Playing music at MM144 is not a big deal when you build your technique sufficiently and almost everyone can do that with patient practice. Anyone with two healthy hands and functioning fingers. Even people with somewhat poor techniques still manage.
144... yes. Where do I even start? Well, look at some MMs yourself and while doing that, think about the fact that according to your "opinion", no human being apparently has "two healthy hands and functioning fingers." Not by my "logic". By yours
You know, these pianos still exist. Lighter action still exists. And yet, still nobody recording at these speeds.
@@ExtraCrispyBits Yes, they do. Why don't you listen to some recordings by professional fortepianists? Petra Somlai, Erik Zivian, Else Biesemans, Kristian Bezuidenhout.
@@DismasZelenka I can find no examples of them playing at, or faster than marked tempi. Fast, yes, at marked tempo, no. Do you have any particular examples? I'd love to hear them!
@@ExtraCrispyBits Not offhand, if it is only fast movements that interest you. I seem to remember listening to concertos by Hummel (fortepiano) and Spohr (violin) and noting that the allegro movements matched the MMs given by those composers. Fun to explore, anyway, and even better without constantly thinking about metronomes.
Let’s assume Beethoven’s metronome was as accurate as modern metronomes are, if you think like a composer: the metronome mark represents the tempo at which the composer conceived the piece, the tempo at which he heard the melody or chord progression etc. This is an ideal.
It’s wholly irrelevant whether the music is playable, if that’s the tempo at which the composer heard the music in his head. It’s then up to the composer to amend the MM if they get complaints of “unplayability” from musicians.
What’s more authentic, the MM at which the work was originally conceived (something to aspire to) (which I imagine was the case for the Hammerklavier) or the MM that was a change to make the work “playable.”
The composers themselves have written, quite clearly, that you must play the piece at the tempo written.
An interesting idea, however they did clarify this
@@ExtraCrispyBits Which composers said this, with regard to the metronome, and can you give quotations.
Wholly irrelevant if the music is playable. 🤯Just what planet do y’all live on.
@@DismasZelenka Well as to the 9th Symphony of Beethoven, Beethoven although "deaf" played the music and Karl set the Metronome at the speed his uncle played. Beethoven could tell if string players were dragging the tempo, by the bowing...
@dimas... do you ever look in the mirror...? I gave a dozen quotes in this video...
39:14 Thanks Wim 👍
Man, you are like the Alex Jones of classical music. And no, I don't mean it in a nice way at all...
A fair comparison. Impassioned, intelligent, and over and over proven correct over time, despite being insulted endlessly by the status quo.
This is not the insult you think it is
Alex Jones. Flat earth. Y’all deniers just say the same things over and over. But what you never do is give single beat performances.
@ you’re unable to provide an actual performance of music the way you think composers intended it. So blah blah blah.
@@ExtraCrispyBits ooh, but it is. It is.
@ you’re completely unreasonable. Composers 200 years ago weren’t writing for the best of the best of the best performers in the 21st-century. You’re ridiculous.