I love how this version has a theme of struggling, but overcoming through determination, whereas Archer's version of this song in the game has a more regretful, but strong and heroic tune. They both show the different parts of Shirou's character arc perfectly.
There is no superior Shirou, there are only Shirous with different strenghts depending on their relation to the ideal of a Hero. UBW Shirou accepted all that his ideal entailed, and thus was able to learn how to use his Reality Marble (Maybe not at Archer's potential, but he is able to regardless). HF Shirou rejected his borrowed ideal, thus becoming less a Faker and a little more Real. Thus he lost the ability to summon UBW (His inner world changed) but became able to master projection.
This is partially wrong. In UBW the contradiction of Emiya Shirou and Archer existing at once and their more repeated encounters during the whole route (due to Archer not being injured in the UBW route) leads to mimicry of a mage ritual where Shirou keeps unconciously receiving memories and abilities from his future self. The actual magic ritual entails the spiritual posession of a past reincarnation which would lead the mage to receive knowledge from his past selves, but due to the contradiction of two Shirou's existing at once, the younger Shirou receives the knowledge of the older version as they keep following a similar path, to the point Shirou is even able to mimic the groundwork for Unlimited Bladeworks without the 10-20 years it required EMIYA to do so. So yeah,it's not that he accepted his ideal in itself (Fate's Shirou did that too but remained a subpar mage during the route), but that he had so many interactions with Archer that their existences began to flow into one another. As for HF, it's not the rejection itself that makes him lose the ability to use UBW. It's the fact he's not using his own abilities but instead using Archer's abilities directly. Archer and Shirou's internal worlds do not match so he can't use UBW. Shirou CAN use UBW in the HF worldline, but he would require decades of harsh training in order to be able to summon his Reality Marble in the same manner he did in UBW (this is also true in the Fate arc). The only thing that would change in the HF route is that the internal world would look differently because his ideals changed. It would likely no longer be a barren wasteland of swords. I would imagine HF's version of UBW would be more spring-like in nature (since HF in general loves it's sakura trees imagery) in a similar way to how Prysma Ilya's Shirou has a winter wasteland.
Well, to be fair, UBW itself is just, essentially, a large database of weapons he's traced from which he pulls out his projections. The Reality Marble is essentially summoning his internal world with all of the weapons on display at once, thus making it easier for him to call them. He accesses UBW every time he pulls out a weapon he'd not personally traced, and in turn, he goes through an extreme amount of pain. He couldn't actually ever use Archer's Reality Marble without killing him, as Heroic Spirits and humans are made differently, and it shows just how much pain he goes through every time he accesses Archer's arm, even a little. Of course, post-HF Shirou could absolutely train to use the Reality Marble, and yes, it would take years, but how it would appear would depend on events that weigh on his mind, though if his life stays the way it is at the end of the route, then you're right it would probably be full of cherry blossoms.
So how is Shirou in Battle Moon Wars in term in terms of overall playability? I heard that he starts off pretty weak in the beginning due to his body malfunctioning. However, after he gets a new body, he's pretty much a tank.
PlayerNumBuh2 If you boost his stats and take some time to train him, he becomes an unbeatable tank. Or you can just use Shiki for all of the game. Damn, that guy is OP a hell.
Old comment but here’s my thoughts; Shirou is an absolute monster on the battlefield after a stage about halfway through the game. Beforehand, however, he is one of the worst characters in the game due to not being able to hit, survive or dodge consistently. I’d recommend using Shirou sparingly until he unlocks Nine Lives and receives a major boost to his stats, when he becomes a brutally powerful killing machine who can tank anything
I'll forever love BMW for letting Shirou show what he's really capable of. FSN always nerfs him to hell and back for no real reason, but here he's kicking ass and taking names by sheer virtue of having circuits that don't completely suck. Still without a doubt my favorite character.
Plus, UBW has him actually 'get it'. HF, he cant pop the reality marble and his Rho Aia's is only 4 petal. He had Archers experience through that arm, and it was killing him. In UBW, he's rocking his own version of UBW, his creations are solid (Admitly, he had help from Tohsaka with the mana) and he just seems more... nimble. like he's able to maintain his power, rather then cooking his body every time he rocks the awesome.
You forgot, Archer never attacked Saber, he threatened her saying he would trace "her holy sword" if she stands in his way. Even then, he does bring harm to those he cares for, but never life threatening unless he knows he can prevent it.
technically speaking this is archer's theme. The name is spelled EMIYA （エミヤ） which is how we identify Archer as apposed to Emiya (衛宮) Yes their the same people, but Archer is technically called "the heroic spirit EMIYA"
Do send, because I've read through most of side material and nowhere Nasu stated so. The only reason Shirou tracing was costing in HF was because he was using Archer's arm and it kills him by destroying his mind with the invading unlimited blade works, and also as a result overload his body with swords. Reason Shirou can trace in the first place was because his Origin is Sword, plus Avalon made his magic affinity also sword, thus allowing him to make use of such reality marble.
heaven's feel shirou was his strongest version. he was able to trace not only kanshou and bakuya but archer's special finisher with them, was able to not only trace berserker's sword but berserker's strength and noble phantasm and finally he was able to trace archer's physical condition as a servant except endurance. heaven's feel shiro was a super shiro that surpassed archer's tracing ability and kicked a fully powered saber's ass in one of the bad ends
At the same time, though, you can't deny that he was half-dead the entire time. Surely, he did some really strong moves, but what he did there was merely to quicken his inescapable death. I'd say that he was the strongest in UBW, since he, in HF, was only using his very limited powers in bursts, which made him look super powerful.
@OmegaChosen0 read the novel, when shirou did the nine lives blades works he knew berserker wouldn't go down with any normal weapon so he proyected berserker axe-sword because he knew that archer's arm would also reproduce berserker strenght
yeah but that still means that archer isn't the absolute best shiro can be. in UBW ending he already has all the tools and help to surpass archer. even fate shiro should be able to surpass archer eventually since archer never got help with tracing from his future self. all routes lead to a shiro that becomes stronger than archer and therefore able to avoid his fate which was the point of the conversation
nasu did say there was an ilya route that was cut off and the game also gives hints about it in tiger dojo. shirou from fate has only a 30% chance of becoming archer which was said by nasu as well. do remember that fate shirou did tell saber that if you believed in the path you took there was no need to feel regret. this is the main point that makes him different from archer
@OmegaChosen0 All the in-storyline justifications aside... Shiro is totally not the kind of person that would use an elegant weapon with a graceful fighting style. He did use twin swords for a while on the UBW but he got his greatest accomplishment from throwing all technique away and just whipping his blades around like a madman. Stylish or not, brute strength suits him as it refelcts his raw determination, so that's what he gets.
@cronnoponno Remember that Archer was effectively worn out, and lost his ideals long before he was summoned. Plus, at least in the UBW route, Archer still is more GAR than Shirou. Dude lasted over half the freaking route without even getting mana from a master, and still did insane things like cast Unlimited Blade Works, fight Shirou, and even took Gilgamesh's weapon storm.
@OmegaChosen0 Using berserk`s sword has a lot of meaning and explain more of the shirous power that is use the original users power such as even physical streght to wield the word and all. And IMO cause of dat, had As much impact as UBW, if not more...
@@shin-iti nah your English is fine, even now. That said, I’ve just discovered about this game a few months ago and it seemed interesting. I also genuinely love the Emiya theme in this game. It’s genuinely good and underrated.
He doesn't say it directly, though a lot of the fandom tends to add the pieces together. Illya route tidbits are in CM2, references to Illya's death after the HGW in EMIYA's timeline being his greatest regret are in a couple of his character profiles, and one of those profiles (can't find it atm) makes reference to a lover but never mentions anyone specifically by name--and his actions in the novel itself imply it wasn't Saber or Rin, at least.
@OmegaChosen0 Fairly sure that Gilgamesh was still getting Prana, as he was bound to Kotomine. If you remember in the Fate Route, there were a bunch of bodies that were still alive and having their energy drained. That might have been for something else, though.
@UnholyDarknessZ The Nasuverse is a multiverse. All the endings are canon in their own way. Furthermore, TYPE-MOON doesn't seem to like sequels when they interfere with the endings. I think Hollow Ataraxia's canonicity weirdness was handwaved by Rin playing around with the 2nd or something like that.
@HolyRain89 Uhhh, actually guys, Archer came from an unreleased route that Nasu didn't have time to put into the original game, a route that would've followed Ilya. The route was scrapped and combined with Heaven's Feel. Isn't it sad, Ilya?
@Emuticus Wasn't stated that even in his "Of Flesh by Angra Mainyu State" that he only needed mana for his Noble Phantasms That's why those bodies who are still alive by the way were there to provide mana
@blazearmoru you're wrong, Archer came from Fate route, caz in HF route, shirou abandon his ideal just to save sakura. Since archer is a twisted heroic spirit, Betrayed by his own Ideal, which is clearly stated in UBW route, it is obvious he came from Fate route.
@Dragon1796 Said reality was apparently gonna be put into the visual novel as a fourth arc (this one with Ilya as the female lead) if Heaven's Feel was short enough. Unfortunately, it wasn't (was apparently made into a book though).
I'm just gonna quote what he said from the FAQ in Fate Material about Shirou becoming Archer in any of the 3 routes: "I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes , but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero." I didn't find anything of what you said, i bet he said that later, so if you could tell me where to find what you are saying it would be great. I want to know more about that.
@narutardkyuubi Well , most supposed "sequels" are either based off all routes ( No nuthead is going to make a sequel based off only a single route unless they wish for a certain death from fans ) like Melty Blood and complete weirdness like Kagetsu Tohya and Hollow Ataraxia. Kagetsu Tohya was... something related to a dream whilst Ataraxia was birthed from a "behind-the-scenes" event in Fate/Stay Night.
@narutardkyuubi Btw , it was mentioned in the Plus Disc that Arcueid's route was more "ideal" compared to the other heroines , since Ciel's route flirts with the other routes of the "Far Side of the Moon" and well , Akiha's endings aren't exactly pretty , Hisui's Ending can be a bit tearful as well and Kohaku's route made my stomach feel like lead. So , technically speaking , Arcueid's ending was Canon of all Canons... Well , I'm guessing it was the Good Ending though.
Nine Lives is the weapon, the attack that was used in the visual novel was the innate ability that Nine Lives had which basically allowed Shirou to simultaneously strike every vital point in berserker, killing him 8 times. The attack in itself stems from the way Heracles killed the hydra
@RoaraWolf he did not run away but looked at and weighed not his life but his existence, everything that he had been pressured to believe in, chains greater than even archer could escape, and broke free. In the end his abnormality was fixed.
@OmegaChosen0 Berserker's Sword is a physical manifestation of his Conceptual second noble phantasm, a weapon he can't use while he's the berserker, Heracles' bow which slew the hydra, a noble phantasm that takes the form it needs for victory. Nine Lives, the Shooting Hundred Heads! Thus the Nine Lives Blade Works using Berserker's Sword. He HAS to if he wants to use Nine Lives. Although, he has to project it with his left arm, the arm of Heroic Spirit Emiya, Archer of Unlimited Blade Works
since i don't know japanese i wouldn't know where to get the link to nasu's interviews and whatnot but i'll see if i can find some of the translated stuff again
Actually, Archer doesn't want harm to come to Shirou... Because Archer wants to kill him. The entire reason he came back was to slit Shirou's throat to prevent his own timeline from coming true. So sadly enough, yeah... Archer wants Emiya dead.
@DarkAdonisVyers Sakura's route was long? =.= Compared to a single effing route I have to go down in Tsukihime , Sakura's was short - just that there are more Bad Ends and Dead Ends than usual compared to Fate and UBW. I wonder how many time I've attended Cie- I mean , Taiga-san's class.
archer comes from shirou in a branch of heaven's feel where he kills sakura and ilya is the main heroine of the scenario. the only thing is that it was cut from the main game because of some issues (if i remember correctly because of time and money)
If you don't read Japanese, it reads: Similar to a part of experience, because the experience is too massive a holy burial cloth has to be used to slow the process of Archer's memory seeping in Shirou and destroying his personality, consciousness, and memory.
@pondrthis umm, this may be due to English not being my first language, but what do you MEAN Kirei is not obnoxious? He took annoying Shirou (and Rin, for that matter) and made a work of art out of it:P
@DarkAdonisVyers Good Ending or Normal Endings aren't considered Canon so it makes each route having only a single "Canon" ending. Still , the only thing considered "Canon" is Saber's route - as in how the storyline is "supposed to go" - as usual with Visual Novels with several heroines to choose from :X
ilya route is the one archer took, right? that would be cool to see. in any case there is a lot of info about how the grail came to be so it's quite possible to make it.
@Dragon1796 Didn't he already get removed from the time line and placed into another dimension as a different entity all together? O_o he's screwed even if by some miracle all shirous fail to become archer.
It isn't that a change in his mind would change it so Archer wouldn't exist. Magic overrides the sense of time/space, as is explained many times in that show. The mere fact that Shirou and Archer can exist at the same time is a Paradox of its own, so until one dies, the paradox can't be undone. Also, by giving Shirou his arm, Archer changes the timeline itself, causing an Archer/Shirou hybrid.
That's not what I'm asking. I'm perfectly aware of Archer's background, but I've read nothing that suggests he came from an Ilya route, only that he failed to save her after the war. Ilya's homunculus body won't last more than a year after the grail wars even if she wins, so Shirou wouldn't have been able to save her after Fate, and official sources have said that Archer's timeline was most similar to the Fate route; I've heard nothing about an Ilya route except in h-doujins and fan talk.
Well, most of the works that "follow" or "based themselves off of" the base VN's (F/SN and Tsukihime) do so by implying the Heaven's Feel route (because in no other route does Sakura utilize Angra Mainyu) and Ciel's Good Ending (because nobody goes away/dies in that one and even at the end of it, Shiki is still undecided on whether or not he prefers Ciel or Arcueid)
Archer Emiya always participate on Shirou's grail war, in terms of Shirous there are really no superior Shirou, but Archer Emiya himself is the real superior Shirou. He only holds back most of the time, due to his mission of preventing his past self of following his steps.
And the fact that his key strategy is to have people underestimate him. If he was to use his full powers immediately like Saber and Gilgamesh do. Every servant would gang up on him.
fbiuzz He's a glass cannon - he can dish it out but not take it. He can win against multiple Servants if and only if he dishes out the right amount at the right time. Otherwise, he gets one easy victory but, like you said, gets ganged up on.
beamerdreamer And he is too much of a schemer to exterminate enemy servants outright. He could've wiped out Caster any time (in UBW he warned her about kansho and Bakuya AND missed Caladbolg II on purpose) or sniped Shinji and Ilya at ease, but that would've hurted innecesarily his real plans of causing a big enough paradox. Of course what you guys say is true as well, there is no way in hell he could've lasted more than a minute against a really serious Saber or Lancer, and showing what he was really capable of would have forced him into serious battles.
escopeteroce sorry but Archer wrecks both of them if he actually wants to kill them vs Saber he goes Gilgamesh mode, vs Lancer he just snipes him (Hrunting.... gg well played).
Vampire Satsuki and Nero exist in 2 different routes altogether. There's no explanation for this other "this follows a completely different route that was never released. There's basically nothing which points out the irregularity just like the existance of Len in both routes unless there's some kind of middle route we never got to play
It's more likely the Fate route than anything else. It's really obscure, kinda like how melty blood takes place after Tsukihime... It doesn't really make sense, but we accept it anyway
No that can't be right. For Shirou knows of Saber's Avalon and it's actually the Fate version that is closest to his ideal to becoming a hero. Fate Stay Night is like a tale of Shirou going through his ideal. In Fate he believes truly in his ideals, UBW is him facing the faults of his ideal and still accepting it's imperfections, and HF is his total disregard for it. Not to mention Archer would never let harm come to those closest to him in life much less Shirou.
@DarkAdonisVyers Official sequels? =.= Fate/Stay Night doesn't have a sequel - unless you count Fate/Hollow Ataraxia which features a time loop which is pretty much based off all routes.
OMG! ANOTHER NERD LIKE ME WHO PAYS ATTENTION TO LITTLE DETAILS LIKE THAT! HI!!!!(I'm really hyper for some reason, and it's past 12:00 midnight.....maybe because I'm tired?)
@Cypher0120 I was screaming literally at iditos who say that but after reading this was thinking "Ooooooo.... i get it >_>" And then the nanaya part and i thought "Explains why it's less betetr than the novel. there's no killer assasin in it."
@DarkAdonisVyers In short - lacking of Archer's route was probably either an excuse or that they had grown lazy. I'd choose the latter. ( WHERE IS THE TSUKIHIME REMAKE!? )
@RavensNestStudios Come on Kaleid Liner is one Big Parody I think he meant something like Ilya being the main lead of her own visual novel Ya know Fate Fatal Fake could ressusect Ilya through Third Magic Sheneigans-(A.K.A a Holy Grail made on the fly) and make her the main Character...fun fact in fake the main character fills the spot of Saber and as Master the same time he is allowed to use any Noble Phantasm belonging to the Saber Class anytime up to 3 Times
Hmm... about this Shirou/Archer thing... It's been said that Archer's circumstances were most similar to Fate Shirou in his timeline, but I'm not convinced that Fate Shirou is the one that becomes Archer. Archer basically lost to the evils of mankind in a metaphorical sense, his idealism crushed by that which Angra Mainyu embodies. Fate Shirou not only defeated those same evils, he defeated the *physical embodiment* of those evils by sheer force of will. He's too idealistic to become Archer.
The Night of Wallachia created Chaos as well as Red Arcuied, second coming of Vampire Satsuki and the fighting maids (Kohaku and Hisui normally didn't have the ability to fight). Len created the Nanaya Shiki.
Not quite, Shirou and Illya bonds well in all but the UBW route. Illya dies a year after the end of the Grail War, and that was one of many things Shirou, or this case, Archer that bought him ever closer to latch on the ideal of saving everyone no matter how hopeless it maybe.
"shirou will never be archer" It depends on route Shirou will take. In F/ST in UBW route Archer notice that Shirou is taking the same route as he took and try to stop him :)
Archer in UBW can reproduce Saber's Excalibur but he said that it will be downgraded a bit because it's not the real sword. And he would do it if Saber tried to fight him ending by killing everyone around them (Shirou and Rin). Saying that Archer cannot reproduce Excalibur is just stupid, he has done it in his past while he was still alive and Saber's master.
We talked it out, the source he had was speculation proven wrong by my translated quotes from Fate/complete material III. As for arm's effect, here, from word of god: 経験値の塊ではあるが、あまりの経験値の多さに聖骸布を緩めるだけでアーチャーの記憶が流れ込み、衛宮士郎の人格、意識、記憶を破壊する。 Overloading your brain doesn't involve you forgetting your own name, your lover's name just to make a pair of swords. If it's that bad then Shiki would have been amnesiac as Hokaku at end of Hisui route. Or should I say Nanaya.
Ahh shirou, hated his combat ability in the game when u first play him, then he gets the new body and third skill. He's great afterwards, all his stats jumped finally gets use for the def. support skill. Weird that base damage of 9 lives is just a tad more than unlimited blade works
none of the shirou get to become the same archer as the one in fate stay night. even if he does become an official hero like archer he will not regret following his ideal all the way to his death even if it was impossible. in other words even if he becomes a hero he won't become archer, the guy who regreted his existance
If it wasn't for Ilya. Shirou just draws on Archer's abilities, therefore he can't surpass Archer, everything he did was imitating Archer's. Shirou traced Excalibur at end of HF, but he died after, or had to use a different body. As someone who can't project nearly as well as Archer without making use of arm, no way Shirou can do something Archer can't. More importantly Nasu said it himself divine weapons (Excalibur) cannot be projected, because it's not made by mankind.
In short, UBW has quantity while HF has quality. By rejecting his ideal he lost his Reality Marble but also lost the -1 Rank Penalty of Projection, enabling him to perfectly project a Noble Phantasm (At the cost of his mind and body) as well as any attributes of the wielder (Like Berseker's strenght). If they were to fight, I think UBW would win IF he summoned his Reality Marble, but would lose to HF Shirou if he wasn't able to.
Nowhere does it say that HF Shirou's projections with the arm do not have the -1 rank penalty. Considering that Archer has it and Shirou with the arm is at most on Archer's level, there is no way his projection is superior to Archer's.
False. HF Shirou could still be able to make a RM but it will still take time unlike UBW Shirou since he fought Archer in it. Also, Shirou's projections are always -1 in rank, it's just that they don't fade like normal Projection.
@RoaraWolf Maybe, but Archer came from HF route's bad end. Archer could never overcome what HF Emiya could, himself, or more accurately, everything that defined himself as emiya.
A Ilya route would be cool..as long as Shirou doesn´t end up as a lolicon..it could explain how the Grail came to be the summoning and a personalty for Ilya´s grandfather..ps the guy started the wars!
Kotomine probably used them to support Gilgamesh while he used his own prana for supporting Lancer. It'd probably be too costly supporting Gilgamesh and his spam happiness and Lancer and his blood knight ideals.
Shirou can't project better than Archer himself. He traced Excalibur but we don't know to what extent, he would've been dead anyways. It's said in material that Archer can't trace Excalibur(but nothing is said about a majorly degraded version which I think he can). If Shirou used Nine Lives on the real berserker not a blind one that is corrupted and died many times over already, he would've been dead. He would've been dead anyways if it was for Ilya. Shirou is just making use of Archer's arm.
"This hand of mine glows with an awesome power!"
It is telling me to grasp Victory!!!
SHINING FINGER!
Awesome powah!
Ironically from Gilgamesh VA lol. Imagine a Master Asia. Gil will be like yes master and all that.
I love how this version has a theme of struggling, but overcoming through determination, whereas Archer's version of this song in the game has a more regretful, but strong and heroic tune. They both show the different parts of Shirou's character arc perfectly.
There is no superior Shirou, there are only Shirous with different strenghts depending on their relation to the ideal of a Hero. UBW Shirou accepted all that his ideal entailed, and thus was able to learn how to use his Reality Marble (Maybe not at Archer's potential, but he is able to regardless). HF Shirou rejected his borrowed ideal, thus becoming less a Faker and a little more Real. Thus he lost the ability to summon UBW (His inner world changed) but became able to master projection.
This is partially wrong. In UBW the contradiction of Emiya Shirou and Archer existing at once and their more repeated encounters during the whole route (due to Archer not being injured in the UBW route) leads to mimicry of a mage ritual where Shirou keeps unconciously receiving memories and abilities from his future self. The actual magic ritual entails the spiritual posession of a past reincarnation which would lead the mage to receive knowledge from his past selves, but due to the contradiction of two Shirou's existing at once, the younger Shirou receives the knowledge of the older version as they keep following a similar path, to the point Shirou is even able to mimic the groundwork for Unlimited Bladeworks without the 10-20 years it required EMIYA to do so.
So yeah,it's not that he accepted his ideal in itself (Fate's Shirou did that too but remained a subpar mage during the route), but that he had so many interactions with Archer that their existences began to flow into one another.
As for HF, it's not the rejection itself that makes him lose the ability to use UBW. It's the fact he's not using his own abilities but instead using Archer's abilities directly. Archer and Shirou's internal worlds do not match so he can't use UBW. Shirou CAN use UBW in the HF worldline, but he would require decades of harsh training in order to be able to summon his Reality Marble in the same manner he did in UBW (this is also true in the Fate arc). The only thing that would change in the HF route is that the internal world would look differently because his ideals changed. It would likely no longer be a barren wasteland of swords. I would imagine HF's version of UBW would be more spring-like in nature (since HF in general loves it's sakura trees imagery) in a similar way to how Prysma Ilya's Shirou has a winter wasteland.
Well, to be fair, UBW itself is just, essentially, a large database of weapons he's traced from which he pulls out his projections. The Reality Marble is essentially summoning his internal world with all of the weapons on display at once, thus making it easier for him to call them. He accesses UBW every time he pulls out a weapon he'd not personally traced, and in turn, he goes through an extreme amount of pain. He couldn't actually ever use Archer's Reality Marble without killing him, as Heroic Spirits and humans are made differently, and it shows just how much pain he goes through every time he accesses Archer's arm, even a little. Of course, post-HF Shirou could absolutely train to use the Reality Marble, and yes, it would take years, but how it would appear would depend on events that weigh on his mind, though if his life stays the way it is at the end of the route, then you're right it would probably be full of cherry blossoms.
I know this is an old game but DAMN!!! is this a hella Emiya remix
So how is Shirou in Battle Moon Wars in term in terms of overall playability? I heard that he starts off pretty weak in the beginning due to his body malfunctioning. However, after he gets a new body, he's pretty much a tank.
Let me put it like this, towards the end Shirou can be a 'mob clearer' very easy. Basically he has the strength of a servant mid-late game
PlayerNumBuh2 If you boost his stats and take some time to train him, he becomes an unbeatable tank.
Or you can just use Shiki for all of the game. Damn, that guy is OP a hell.
He is more useful at the start of the game than Shirou.
Old comment but here’s my thoughts; Shirou is an absolute monster on the battlefield after a stage about halfway through the game. Beforehand, however, he is one of the worst characters in the game due to not being able to hit, survive or dodge consistently. I’d recommend using Shirou sparingly until he unlocks Nine Lives and receives a major boost to his stats, when he becomes a brutally powerful killing machine who can tank anything
I'll forever love BMW for letting Shirou show what he's really capable of. FSN always nerfs him to hell and back for no real reason, but here he's kicking ass and taking names by sheer virtue of having circuits that don't completely suck.
Still without a doubt my favorite character.
Watch Oath Under Snow
Plus, UBW has him actually 'get it'. HF, he cant pop the reality marble and his Rho Aia's is only 4 petal. He had Archers experience through that arm, and it was killing him.
In UBW, he's rocking his own version of UBW, his creations are solid (Admitly, he had help from Tohsaka with the mana) and he just seems more... nimble. like he's able to maintain his power, rather then cooking his body every time he rocks the awesome.
You forgot, Archer never attacked Saber, he threatened her saying he would trace "her holy sword" if she stands in his way.
Even then, he does bring harm to those he cares for, but never life threatening unless he knows he can prevent it.
technically speaking this is archer's theme.
The name is spelled EMIYA （エミヤ） which is how we identify Archer as apposed to Emiya (衛宮)
Yes their the same people, but Archer is technically called "the heroic spirit EMIYA"
Do send, because I've read through most of side material and nowhere Nasu stated so. The only reason Shirou tracing was costing in HF was because he was using Archer's arm and it kills him by destroying his mind with the invading unlimited blade works, and also as a result overload his body with swords. Reason Shirou can trace in the first place was because his Origin is Sword, plus Avalon made his magic affinity also sword, thus allowing him to make use of such reality marble.
heaven's feel shirou was his strongest version. he was able to trace not only kanshou and bakuya but archer's special finisher with them, was able to not only trace berserker's sword but berserker's strength and noble phantasm and finally he was able to trace archer's physical condition as a servant except endurance. heaven's feel shiro was a super shiro that surpassed archer's tracing ability and kicked a fully powered saber's ass in one of the bad ends
A katana would be stylish, but I think Berserker's sword has more oomph.
I AM THE BONE OF MY SWORD RHO
At the same time, though, you can't deny that he was half-dead the entire time. Surely, he did some really strong moves, but what he did there was merely to quicken his inescapable death. I'd say that he was the strongest in UBW, since he, in HF, was only using his very limited powers in bursts, which made him look super powerful.
@OmegaChosen0 read the novel, when shirou did the nine lives blades works
he knew berserker wouldn't go down with any normal weapon so he proyected berserker axe-sword because he knew that archer's arm would also reproduce berserker strenght
yeah but that still means that archer isn't the absolute best shiro can be. in UBW ending he already has all the tools and help to surpass archer. even fate shiro should be able to surpass archer eventually since archer never got help with tracing from his future self. all routes lead to a shiro that becomes stronger than archer and therefore able to avoid his fate which was the point of the conversation
nasu did say there was an ilya route that was cut off and the game also gives hints about it in tiger dojo. shirou from fate has only a 30% chance of becoming archer which was said by nasu as well.
do remember that fate shirou did tell saber that if you believed in the path you took there was no need to feel regret. this is the main point that makes him different from archer
@OmegaChosen0 All the in-storyline justifications aside... Shiro is totally not the kind of person that would use an elegant weapon with a graceful fighting style. He did use twin swords for a while on the UBW but he got his greatest accomplishment from throwing all technique away and just whipping his blades around like a madman. Stylish or not, brute strength suits him as it refelcts his raw determination, so that's what he gets.
@cronnoponno
Remember that Archer was effectively worn out, and lost his ideals long before he was summoned.
Plus, at least in the UBW route, Archer still is more GAR than Shirou. Dude lasted over half the freaking route without even getting mana from a master, and still did insane things like cast Unlimited Blade Works, fight Shirou, and even took Gilgamesh's weapon storm.
@OmegaChosen0
Using berserk`s sword has a lot of meaning and explain more of the shirous power that is use the original users power such as even physical streght to wield the word and all. And IMO cause of dat, had As much impact as UBW, if not more...
To think I’d find you here...
@@Sensei.Of.Kivotos oh damn.... my past comdens me huh u.u..... and my english was even worse then now xD... I just love too much battle moon wars man
@@shin-iti nah your English is fine, even now. That said, I’ve just discovered about this game a few months ago and it seemed interesting. I also genuinely love the Emiya theme in this game. It’s genuinely good and underrated.
He doesn't say it directly, though a lot of the fandom tends to add the pieces together. Illya route tidbits are in CM2, references to Illya's death after the HGW in EMIYA's timeline being his greatest regret are in a couple of his character profiles, and one of those profiles (can't find it atm) makes reference to a lover but never mentions anyone specifically by name--and his actions in the novel itself imply it wasn't Saber or Rin, at least.
@OmegaChosen0 Fairly sure that Gilgamesh was still getting Prana, as he was bound to Kotomine. If you remember in the Fate Route, there were a bunch of bodies that were still alive and having their energy drained. That might have been for something else, though.
@UnholyDarknessZ The Nasuverse is a multiverse. All the endings are canon in their own way. Furthermore, TYPE-MOON doesn't seem to like sequels when they interfere with the endings. I think Hollow Ataraxia's canonicity weirdness was handwaved by Rin playing around with the 2nd or something like that.
@HolyRain89 Uhhh, actually guys, Archer came from an unreleased route that Nasu didn't have time to put into the original game, a route that would've followed Ilya. The route was scrapped and combined with Heaven's Feel. Isn't it sad, Ilya?
@Emuticus Wasn't stated that even in his "Of Flesh by Angra Mainyu State" that he only needed mana for his Noble Phantasms
That's why those bodies who are still alive by the way were there to provide mana
@blazearmoru you're wrong, Archer came from Fate route, caz in HF route, shirou abandon his ideal just to save sakura. Since archer is a twisted heroic spirit, Betrayed by his own Ideal, which is clearly stated in UBW route, it is obvious he came from Fate route.
@DarkAdonisVyers Archer was said to be derived from the scrapped Illya route , so it goes both ways , non?
The name of the UBW theme is called "Emiya" in case you were wondering.
@Dragon1796 Said reality was apparently gonna be put into the visual novel as a fourth arc (this one with Ilya as the female lead) if Heaven's Feel was short enough. Unfortunately, it wasn't (was apparently made into a book though).
I'm just gonna quote what he said from the FAQ in Fate Material about Shirou becoming Archer in any of the 3 routes:
"I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes , but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero."
I didn't find anything of what you said, i bet he said that later, so if you could tell me where to find what you are saying it would be great. I want to know more about that.
@narutardkyuubi Well , most supposed "sequels" are either based off all routes ( No nuthead is going to make a sequel based off only a single route unless they wish for a certain death from fans ) like Melty Blood and complete weirdness like Kagetsu Tohya and Hollow Ataraxia.
Kagetsu Tohya was... something related to a dream whilst Ataraxia was birthed from a "behind-the-scenes" event in Fate/Stay Night.
@narutardkyuubi Btw , it was mentioned in the Plus Disc that Arcueid's route was more "ideal" compared to the other heroines , since Ciel's route flirts with the other routes of the "Far Side of the Moon" and well , Akiha's endings aren't exactly pretty , Hisui's Ending can be a bit tearful as well and Kohaku's route made my stomach feel like lead.
So , technically speaking , Arcueid's ending was Canon of all Canons... Well , I'm guessing it was the Good Ending though.
Nine Lives is a multipurpose bow. It can act as any type of weapon given the circumstances.
Nine Lives is the weapon, the attack that was used in the visual novel was the innate ability that Nine Lives had which basically allowed Shirou to simultaneously strike every vital point in berserker, killing him 8 times. The attack in itself stems from the way Heracles killed the hydra
A shame it completely wrecked his mind.
@RoaraWolf he did not run away but looked at and weighed not his life but his existence, everything that he had been pressured to believe in, chains greater than even archer could escape, and broke free. In the end his abnormality was fixed.
@OmegaChosen0 Berserker's Sword is a physical manifestation of his Conceptual second noble phantasm, a weapon he can't use while he's the berserker, Heracles' bow which slew the hydra, a noble phantasm that takes the form it needs for victory. Nine Lives, the Shooting Hundred Heads! Thus the Nine Lives Blade Works using Berserker's Sword. He HAS to if he wants to use Nine Lives. Although, he has to project it with his left arm, the arm of Heroic Spirit Emiya, Archer of Unlimited Blade Works
since i don't know japanese i wouldn't know where to get the link to nasu's interviews and whatnot but i'll see if i can find some of the translated stuff again
Actually, Archer doesn't want harm to come to Shirou...
Because Archer wants to kill him.
The entire reason he came back was to slit Shirou's throat to prevent his own timeline from coming true. So sadly enough, yeah... Archer wants Emiya dead.
Actually he said the chance of any Shirou from the routes in FSN have practically no chance of becoming "Counter-Guardian Archer".
@DarkAdonisVyers Sakura's route was long? =.=
Compared to a single effing route I have to go down in Tsukihime , Sakura's was short - just that there are more Bad Ends and Dead Ends than usual compared to Fate and UBW.
I wonder how many time I've attended Cie- I mean , Taiga-san's class.
I hate you for making fun of such epic moment, but I also could not help but love your joke.
archer comes from shirou in a branch of heaven's feel where he kills sakura and ilya is the main heroine of the scenario. the only thing is that it was cut from the main game because of some issues (if i remember correctly because of time and money)
If you don't read Japanese, it reads:
Similar to a part of experience, because the experience is too massive a holy burial cloth has to be used to slow the process of Archer's memory seeping in Shirou and destroying his personality, consciousness, and memory.
@pondrthis umm, this may be due to English not being my first language, but what do you MEAN Kirei is not obnoxious? He took annoying Shirou (and Rin, for that matter) and made a work of art out of it:P
@DarkAdonisVyers Good Ending or Normal Endings aren't considered Canon so it makes each route having only a single "Canon" ending.
Still , the only thing considered "Canon" is Saber's route - as in how the storyline is "supposed to go" - as usual with Visual Novels with several heroines to choose from :X
No
ilya route is the one archer took, right? that would be cool to see. in any case there is a lot of info about how the grail came to be so it's quite possible to make it.
It's teh illya route. They hint at it in HF, Archer looks at Illya sadly while they attempt to run away from the Castle.
@Dragon1796 Didn't he already get removed from the time line and placed into another dimension as a different entity all together? O_o he's screwed even if by some miracle all shirous fail to become archer.
@RavensNestStudios not in the nanoha way, I meant in the same way that Saber or Rin were the heroines (but assumidly more platonic)
It isn't that a change in his mind would change it so Archer wouldn't exist. Magic overrides the sense of time/space, as is explained many times in that show. The mere fact that Shirou and Archer can exist at the same time is a Paradox of its own, so until one dies, the paradox can't be undone. Also, by giving Shirou his arm, Archer changes the timeline itself, causing an Archer/Shirou hybrid.
That's not what I'm asking. I'm perfectly aware of Archer's background, but I've read nothing that suggests he came from an Ilya route, only that he failed to save her after the war. Ilya's homunculus body won't last more than a year after the grail wars even if she wins, so Shirou wouldn't have been able to save her after Fate, and official sources have said that Archer's timeline was most similar to the Fate route; I've heard nothing about an Ilya route except in h-doujins and fan talk.
@koreankimchikun But then what about Kagetsu Tohya? A reason for the route is scrapped is because HF, Sakura's route, was so f**king long.
Well, most of the works that "follow" or "based themselves off of" the base VN's (F/SN and Tsukihime) do so by implying the Heaven's Feel route (because in no other route does Sakura utilize Angra Mainyu) and Ciel's Good Ending (because nobody goes away/dies in that one and even at the end of it, Shiki is still undecided on whether or not he prefers Ciel or Arcueid)
Archer Emiya always participate on Shirou's grail war, in terms of Shirous there are really no superior Shirou, but Archer Emiya himself is the real superior Shirou. He only holds back most of the time, due to his mission of preventing his past self of following his steps.
And the fact that his key strategy is to have people underestimate him. If he was to use his full powers immediately like Saber and Gilgamesh do. Every servant would gang up on him.
fbiuzz He's a glass cannon - he can dish it out but not take it. He can win against multiple Servants if and only if he dishes out the right amount at the right time. Otherwise, he gets one easy victory but, like you said, gets ganged up on.
beamerdreamer And he is too much of a schemer to exterminate enemy servants outright. He could've wiped out Caster any time (in UBW he warned her about kansho and Bakuya AND missed Caladbolg II on purpose) or sniped Shinji and Ilya at ease, but that would've hurted innecesarily his real plans of causing a big enough paradox.
Of course what you guys say is true as well, there is no way in hell he could've lasted more than a minute against a really serious Saber or Lancer, and showing what he was really capable of would have forced him into serious battles.
escopeteroce sorry but Archer wrecks both of them if he actually wants to kill them vs Saber he goes Gilgamesh mode, vs Lancer he just snipes him (Hrunting.... gg well played).
beamerdreamer sorry but infinite prana aka Counter Guardian Archer would wreck all 7 servants at the same time.
Vampire Satsuki and Nero exist in 2 different routes altogether. There's no explanation for this other "this follows a completely different route that was never released.
There's basically nothing which points out the irregularity just like the existance of Len in both routes unless there's some kind of middle route we never got to play
It's more likely the Fate route than anything else. It's really obscure, kinda like how melty blood takes place after Tsukihime... It doesn't really make sense, but we accept it anyway
No that can't be right. For Shirou knows of Saber's Avalon and it's actually the Fate version that is closest to his ideal to becoming a hero. Fate Stay Night is like a tale of Shirou going through his ideal. In Fate he believes truly in his ideals, UBW is him facing the faults of his ideal and still accepting it's imperfections, and HF is his total disregard for it.
Not to mention Archer would never let harm come to those closest to him in life much less Shirou.
remember, parallel universes are considered to be canon in nasu's works, therefore archer is a different person to shirou
@UnholyDarknessZ Well, most routes have 2 canon endings, anyway, so I suppose so.
He is Archer.
@dzk87 Didn't UBW Shirou made Archer remember hte beauty of his dream and all that throught sheer hardheadness? That counts for something
@DarkAdonisVyers Official sequels? =.=
Fate/Stay Night doesn't have a sequel - unless you count Fate/Hollow Ataraxia which features a time loop which is pretty much based off all routes.
OMG! ANOTHER NERD LIKE ME WHO PAYS ATTENTION TO LITTLE DETAILS LIKE THAT! HI!!!!(I'm really hyper for some reason, and it's past 12:00 midnight.....maybe because I'm tired?)
@Cypher0120 I was screaming literally at iditos who say that but after reading this was thinking "Ooooooo.... i get it >_>" And then the nanaya part and i thought "Explains why it's less betetr than the novel. there's no killer assasin in it."
@DarkAdonisVyers In short - lacking of Archer's route was probably either an excuse or that they had grown lazy. I'd choose the latter.
( WHERE IS THE TSUKIHIME REMAKE!? )
@RavensNestStudios Come on Kaleid Liner is one Big Parody
I think he meant something like Ilya being the main lead of her own visual novel
Ya know Fate Fatal Fake could ressusect Ilya through Third Magic Sheneigans-(A.K.A a Holy Grail made on the fly) and make her the main Character...fun fact in fake the main character fills the spot of Saber and as Master the same time he is allowed to use any Noble Phantasm belonging to the Saber Class anytime up to 3 Times
Hmm... about this Shirou/Archer thing...
It's been said that Archer's circumstances were most similar to Fate Shirou in his timeline, but I'm not convinced that Fate Shirou is the one that becomes Archer.
Archer basically lost to the evils of mankind in a metaphorical sense, his idealism crushed by that which Angra Mainyu embodies. Fate Shirou not only defeated those same evils, he defeated the *physical embodiment* of those evils by sheer force of will. He's too idealistic to become Archer.
The Night of Wallachia created Chaos as well as Red Arcuied, second coming of Vampire Satsuki and the fighting maids (Kohaku and Hisui normally didn't have the ability to fight).
Len created the Nanaya Shiki.
Not quite, Shirou and Illya bonds well in all but the UBW route.
Illya dies a year after the end of the Grail War, and that was one of many things Shirou, or this case, Archer that bought him ever closer to latch on the ideal of saving everyone no matter how hopeless it maybe.
ya just gotta love the nine lives attack :D
@Cypher0120 Who? No idea who that is. I've only played Fate/Stay Night and Utawareromono.
@Cypher0120 Notes for remake:
Better Story Accuracy
Nanaya
Better-Suited Art Style (like what Fate/Stay Night did)
Only watched/played Tsukihime pal!
Yeah, Haven's Feel Shirou is awesome.
because we are humans and therefore love arguments.
"shirou will never be archer"
It depends on route Shirou will take. In F/ST in UBW route Archer notice that Shirou is taking the same route as he took and try to stop him :)
The beginning sounds like this was done by Waterflame. Itself, this remix is very good
Archer in UBW can reproduce Saber's Excalibur but he said that it will be downgraded a bit because it's not the real sword. And he would do it if Saber tried to fight him ending by killing everyone around them (Shirou and Rin). Saying that Archer cannot reproduce Excalibur is just stupid, he has done it in his past while he was still alive and Saber's master.
We talked it out, the source he had was speculation proven wrong by my translated quotes from Fate/complete material III.
As for arm's effect, here, from word of god:
経験値の塊ではあるが、あまりの経験値の多さに聖骸布を緩めるだけでアーチャーの記憶が流れ込み、衛宮士郎の人格、意識、記憶を破壊する。
Overloading your brain doesn't involve you forgetting your own name, your lover's name just to make a pair of swords. If it's that bad then Shiki would have been amnesiac as Hokaku at end of Hisui route. Or should I say Nanaya.
Ahh shirou, hated his combat ability in the game when u first play him, then he gets the new body and third skill. He's great afterwards, all his stats jumped finally gets use for the def. support skill. Weird that base damage of 9 lives is just a tad more than unlimited blade works
none of the shirou get to become the same archer as the one in fate stay night. even if he does become an official hero like archer he will not regret following his ideal all the way to his death even if it was impossible. in other words even if he becomes a hero he won't become archer, the guy who regreted his existance
@Hailfaz 1 year response I already played Fate/stay night
SO I GET IT!
If it wasn't for Ilya. Shirou just draws on Archer's abilities, therefore he can't surpass Archer, everything he did was imitating Archer's.
Shirou traced Excalibur at end of HF, but he died after, or had to use a different body. As someone who can't project nearly as well as Archer without making use of arm, no way Shirou can do something Archer can't. More importantly Nasu said it himself divine weapons (Excalibur) cannot be projected, because it's not made by mankind.
Heaven's Feel made more sense to use in this game but I still would have loved to seen UBW.
besides that there´re some similarities between the songs themselves; if you know emiya youll recognize them and youll remember the other song^^
exactly! :D
In short, UBW has quantity while HF has quality. By rejecting his ideal he lost his Reality Marble but also lost the -1 Rank Penalty of Projection, enabling him to perfectly project a Noble Phantasm (At the cost of his mind and body) as well as any attributes of the wielder (Like Berseker's strenght). If they were to fight, I think UBW would win IF he summoned his Reality Marble, but would lose to HF Shirou if he wasn't able to.
Nowhere does it say that HF Shirou's projections with the arm do not have the -1 rank penalty. Considering that Archer has it and Shirou with the arm is at most on Archer's level, there is no way his projection is superior to Archer's.
False. HF Shirou could still be able to make a RM but it will still take time unlike UBW Shirou since he fought Archer in it. Also, Shirou's projections are always -1 in rank, it's just that they don't fade like normal Projection.
@RoaraWolf Maybe, but Archer came from HF route's bad end. Archer could never overcome what HF Emiya could, himself, or more accurately, everything that defined himself as emiya.
Damn now I want Mind Of steel Shirou playable
Soulgaine, would you mind uploading BGM 54 "transparency"? It's one of my favorite tracks from the game.
Details, Details...
A Ilya route would be cool..as long as Shirou doesn´t end up as a lolicon..it could explain how the Grail came to be the summoning and a personalty for Ilya´s grandfather..ps the guy started the wars!
Shirou's overcompensating for something every time he traces Berserker's axe-blade.
Kotomine probably used them to support Gilgamesh while he used his own prana for supporting Lancer. It'd probably be too costly supporting Gilgamesh and his spam happiness and Lancer and his blood knight ideals.
Shirou can't project better than Archer himself. He traced Excalibur but we don't know to what extent, he would've been dead anyways. It's said in material that Archer can't trace Excalibur(but nothing is said about a majorly degraded version which I think he can).
If Shirou used Nine Lives on the real berserker not a blind one that is corrupted and died many times over already, he would've been dead. He would've been dead anyways if it was for Ilya. Shirou is just making use of Archer's arm.
Actually as strong as him, if he had projected Kanshou and Bakuya. The only thing he doesn't have is Archer's endurance.
That's the first I've heard of it. Do you have an official source for that and a link you could post to it?
However, many agree that the Tsukihime opening exists. it's a shame a show with an op that great could simply not exist.
@HolyRain89 no he didn't abandon his ideal to save sakura. He killed sakura, killed tosaka, killed everyone he cared about. Read it again.