Will Sodium Ion Replace Lithium As The King Of Batteries?
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2023
- In this video, we will take a brief look at two companies bringing Sodium Ion batteries to the mass market and whether or not these new batteries can replace lithium ion. CATL and Chery are launching an electric vehicle soon using them and I am sure sodium ion batteries will start showing up all over. But I'm not sold on a complete replacement. #sodiumion #lithiumbattery #catl
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Another great video., we learn. a lot from you..
Thanks! I appreciate that. Thanks for all your support!
Nice video!
Thanks!
Love this topic. Super excited about the reduced shipping weight
Thanks! I appreciate it.
Sodium ion battery makers don't talk about their biggest issue. Huge voltage drops as it discharges. This makes it really hard to put in automotive applications and is why companies are talking about hybrid lithium and sodium packs. They drop from 3v to just over 1 volt in a linear fashion so you lose almost 3x your power in the lower charge levels of the battery. Also hard carbon costs more than graphite which makes the long term prospect of sodium cost about the same per KWH as LFP. Sodium has its place but likely not in automotive.
True, but there are ways around it. And I'll give Chery the benefit of the doubt here that they are not betting billions on something that hasn't been throughly tested and validated. We will see soon enough.
"This makes it really hard to put in automotive applications" In any application. Imagine the efficiency losses because of the permanent need to adapt to another input voltage. Lets say i have 100 cells, thats a input voltage range of 410 Volt to 150 Volt. I bet nobody can trim the power electronics to better than 85% efficiency.
You can use brown coal or other carbon based cathodes. Hard carbon is one of many possible forms.
Sodium has its place but neither in automotive nor planes nor solar batteries.
Maybe in ships where you can put three times the amount or in farming/building equipment where you want a wide temperature range.
I think you are talking about the oldest sodium ion battery, know that this technology Na+ combination evolves.
There is a recent testing of newer 18650 Na battery: ua-cam.com/video/xBPwZzBhCvE/v-deo.html
In this test more than 80% of power is between 4v to 2.5v which is an improvement than what you are talking. And this is just a beginning, there will be more upgrade in Na battery that will make it superior and cheaper over time.
And there is no such thing as "lose 3x of power" if you have voltage regulator/controller that can deliver fix voltage (such as inverter that does well on wide range of voltage e.g. from 12v to 48v), this way the output will always be constant voltage and power. While maybe not shine in automotive, it still a very good prospect in Home Solar Panel battery alternative to Lifepo4.
1. They recently discovered an enormous lithium deposit in the USA.
2. Proof of concept has been completed in recycling LiON batteries. Whether that becomes a commercial procedure or not is perhaps another matter, but it's certainly more viable than recycling gasoline, which if current models are correct would take millions of years.
I thought it was solid state although I understand they contain lithium too.
We are putting 72 battery cabinets of these batteries in a data center for backup power.
Wow, that is cool. I assume they are connected to some sort of UPS. Who makes the UPS system?
how does sodium ion do with cold weather charging and will it last longer after many deep discharges?
From my research, sodium ion batteries can be safely charged in colder temperatures than lithium ion. They are more reactive to charging in cold temperatures and will charge faster in cold temperatures. However, I don't know how low is safe. Just that it is lower than lithium ion.
Sodium Ion is able to work in extreme temperature ranges where Li-Ion fails. So a big plus in colder and hotter climates.
However, Sodium Ion has a life of around 5,000 charge/discharge cycles, where Li-Ion is around 7,500 cycles.
Maybe in the future this will be fixed. Sodium Ion is cheaper to make than Li-Ion and is easier to recycle, so maybe this will help.
Maybe by devising some sort of sodium quantum dots such a battery can possess greater energy density per less!
Aluminium sulfur, Potasium and calcium ion is future
How are sodium batteries going to work 4 small applications like rv an solar
What do you mean? RV's run off of a few AGM's right now. Sodium Ion would be a major improvement right away. Just not as small and compact and lightweight as LFP lithium batteries.
@LDSreliance ok thanks
No problem. It will take a while until they are mass produced to the point where they are adopted into those applications, though. Possibly even a decade.
Perhaps one day, we figure out how to use more than just sodium and lithium to self generate electricity like our cells do without having to recharge
It always there, we just not realize them yet
I'm sure we will continue to find more ways to generate and store power. But you also can't break the laws of physics, either. Our cells create energy around the clock because they energy converted from food and water and oxygen. So there will always be inputs needed to create power and waste as a result of that power that we will have to deal with.
@@LDSreliance you might not know about it
law of physics here is very 1 dimensional
there is a guy who found a way to self generated at low voltage
i followed and watched him playing around up to 3 v ish
Aluminum ion batteries are in the works also.
Lithium was preferred for the sole reason of it being easier to sanction.
Personally most of the green energy solutions are a bridge to nowhere.
Hydrogen on the other hand isn't, it's infinity scalable, and since it's everywhere in this universe sourcing it should be no issue.
However I don't expect to see Hydrogen take hold as it simply doesn't make the bigs as much money, supply vs demand...
Toyota is still all in on hydrogen. But I agree, this is more about economics than any kind of environmental responsibility... no matter what their fancy videos and marketing says. Lithium is getting scarce so they need another solution fast. So this is plan B. It is not a silver bullet, though.
Hydrogen has many many problems that make it impractical as an energy storage. The two biggest are that most of it is brown hydrogen which is made from natural gas and worse for the environment than natural gas
The second is the efficiency of transport, compression and then power generation of hydrogen is very low, causing about 70 percent of the energy to be lost in those processes vs 12 percent for battery to electric motor.
@@LDSreliance I agree with your analysis.
I fully support Toyota in bringing hydrogen to the masses.
I do know of a invention that came out year's ago that compressed hydrogen into a solid fuel tablet/pill. One would place this tablet into a reaction chamber/fuel cannister and through a chemical reaction create enough hydrogen inside to power the engine. This reduced the available hydrogen gas to a small amount, and reduced the explosion in case of a accident.
However with all that said, until we can defeat the Satanic Paedophile cult that runs this world, bringing out technology that benefits humanity might be a moot point.
God Speed
@@matthewmanzi9504 I understand, however hydrogen can be formed into a solid, through a chemical process, then reformed into a gas using another chemical reaction inside a reaction chamber.
Several patents are pending on this subject.
As for production of hydrogen it is fairly simple and with the current production of solar panels should be no problem at growing enough algae that produces hydrogen gas.
Of course to produce the amount of hydrogen to power the USA's fleet of car's a significant amount of investment would have to be made.
As for the burning of hydrogen h20 is created, as for gas, diesel, natural gas etc all release carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and other gasses.
Co2 is the building block of life as it's a green molecule. Yet like I've said before the Satanic Paedophile cult that runs this world target's co2 as the worst pollution. They're eugenicists anti human depopulating scum.
Hydrogen along with gas, diesel, coal, is a bridge to success. Solar energy, wind energy, and it's ability to store produced energy is it's Achilles heel.
A solution would to take the available solar, wind, hydro, to produce algae that produces hydrogen in vast quantities. Is hydrogen the silver bullet for humanities energy needs?
Not entirely, yet the production of it doesn't require children working in Africa in cobalt mines extracting this rare source to run the "green new deal"
The main problem with hydrogen is it costs too much to produce and transport.
Well it needs to start rolling out... And zinc air...
CATL Sodium Ion cells are already for sale on Alibaba. Only a matter of time.
My doctor told be to avoid sodium
Ehh, what does he know?
he is correct in a way
refined sodium chloride yes
you need full spectrum of sodium with other minerals in them to support it like a orchestra
Potassium is a huge pairing of sodium
Funny, slightly different reason, sodium binds fluid in the body, which leads to high blood pressure and edema. However, it is not really correct either, but that is to long and to much of topic. Look into herbal options and more movement😉
The Fire Issue is a real problem for Li-Ion. While the estimate of a fire is around 0.00002% or 1 in 5,000,000 for a single cell. Some cars have 10,000 cells raising the risk to 0.2% or 1 in 500. This is crazy. Sodium Ion may be the best answer to the Fire Risk.
SEE: ua-cam.com/video/rJsoWD0J7bQ/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/AIXTP-TgPEw/v-deo.html
I agree. In fact, the Ford Pinto was discontinued in large part due to hysteria about its alleged ability to catch fire in a rear end collision. And that was only 27 deaths out of 2.4 million Pintos sold over a 6 year period. I can't find statistics on how many actual fires started (instead of the death toll) but lets say there were 100 fires to every death. That is 2700 fires out of 2.4 million or 0.1125%.
People still talk about the legend of the exploding Pintos to this day. So why aren't electric vehicles getting the same scrutiny with media and public backlash? My opinion is that it is because it is doesn't fit the green agenda. But whatever you feel the reason is, it is hypocritical to vilify one and laud the other.
Vote for more updates as it represents one possible path to a $25K e-car for the masses.
Thanks. I think there is enough interest for another video. I appreciate the feedback.
If they do not catch fire or explode and do not need cobalt, than some of the draw backs would still be acceptable. However, solving the range ancient with current EV may probably not be soved here. Will follow the development!
Lithium batteries have an unfortunate tendency to explode.
Not a day goes by in China without a lithium fireworks display.
We don't know if sodium chemistry is any safer.
That does not apply to LFP. The ones that are exploding are the LCO and NMC sub-chemistries.
We can be pretty sure that we do know that about Sodium Ion because it has been around just as long as lithium it just hasn't been commercialized. So we have a track record with the chemistry and technology, but we do need to make sure it gets safely implemented in vehicles and other technologies.
@@LDSreliance
I hope you are right.
I hope so, too!
A basic science lesson :
Atomic # of Lithium = 3
Atomic # of Sodium = 11
Both Li+ and Na+ carry single positive charge. Na+ has a weight penalty of 3.67 times that of Li+
One needs almost 4 times the mass of Lithium to make a battery that can store equivalent amount of charge with Sodium. This is a fundamental fact in nature which you cannot overcome.
Sodium batteries will never reach the energy density per kg of Lithium batteries.
Too much hype circulating.
Yes, Sodium is cheaper!!! Good candidate for ESS. Can potentially replace LFP for ESS applications.
I am in the battery industry.
That comes across as quite condescending. You know it isn't as simple as your chemistry lesson, right? Did you watch the video or just respond to the thumbnail?
1. Energy density is not everything, some prefer cheaper, the size and weight difference does not matter much (such as in ship or home solar panel).
2. The content of Lithium or Sodium in a battery is just a small percentage, the rest are electrolyte and anode of different material. Take a paper quote of a typical Lithium Nickel Cobalt battery composition: "Lithium cells consist of heavy metals, organic chemicals, and plastics in proportions of 5-20% cobalt, 5-10% nickel, 5-7% lithium, 15% organic chemicals, and 7% plastics, with the composition varying slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer.", you see you are talking about a "basic science lesson" of 5-7% of overall weight of battery.
3. See the video of how the world is struggling to meet the demand of the Lithium. The price of Lithium could skyrocket and thus, forcing people to look for cheaper alternative.
4. The real world isn't as simple as your "basic science lesson"
@@stark_energy You've done a great job! My comment was to point out that Sodium batteries cannot have better energy density per mass. You rightfully said batteries are not just made up of lithium or sodium. Who says I disagree with that? I just explained why fundamentally Sodium batteries are inferior to Lithium in terms of energy density.
Let me also give you another fact. Batteries are not all about energy densities. A high performance battery must be able to charge and discharge fast. Guess what? Lithium ions being lighter will always charge and discharge faster than sodium batteries. A crucially important property in high performance EVs.
No matter how complicated or high tech... they all boil down to the fundamentals. That is, basic science. Because nothing can violate basic science.
So if I understand this right, not new technology. Maybe cheaper, but heavier and won't last as long. We really need to end Lithium ion battries. But sounds more like another scam from Tesla. 😂
It isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread but I think it does have a place. In applications where weight and size don't matter (grid storage for electric companies as well as solar panel systems for sheds, outbuildings, and workshops) this could be a big deal. But it may not work very well for electric vehicles. I guess we will find out soon, though!
@LDSreliance Good points, the whole green agenda is failing in Germany, redespatch measures jumped to 15000 last year and possible rotating brownouts now. They are one of the heaviest invested in solar and wind and that's now creating massive problems for industry, but also public. The key would be to store the generated electricity during time where more gets produced than can be used. Wind power needs to get turned off, to keep it at the 50 megahertz ( here is 60) or you deal with massive blackouts. I have no idea why not investing in usable electricity storage first, clearly it is essential to make this whole shift work. They have now small once, but nothing big enough or effective enough yet. If this technology can help, than certainly it's the right direction!!!
As for EV, they really are a failure for us with what we need for a car. But my main concern is their high risk to the public, with fire, explosions, risk to firefighters, large amounts of cobalt needed, hazards to the environment and so on. If sodium ion can replace Lithium ion, than those concerns would go away. They likely will increase range anxiety, but that is than just a problem for the buyer, not the public anymore. So this will be interesting to watch. If they were so superior, as Tesla makes it sound, why did they not use them right away? 😄 It is not like they were just created. But that is another, different topic, lol
Correct. This push is being done by people that don't understand solar and have never and will never have to live or die by it (you can bet the elites still have power when those brownouts happen!). Without massive amounts of storage for power, solar and wind aren't enough. It is like a stock market portfolio... you need to diversify. As much as everyone wants to hate on coal, it is cheap and easy and can get us through the lean times for solar and wind. Natural gas, too.
These folks want to rush to the end goal of being completely free of fossil fuels but the technology just isn't there yet and we can't do it. Lets take baby steps. Add in grid storage and continue to allow coal and natural gas to provide the backstop for our grids.
Ah well, half the volumetric capacity will keep them out of vehicles.
You might think that but that is what they said about LFP. Safety is a big driver of this. And new innovations in where to put the batteries so they take up less space (in the frame). And you saw in the video that Chery is putting the first commercially available sodium ion batteries in an electric vehicle.
Good to know. Every car should also have another pack like the above to balance the grid.@@LDSreliance
I agree. A huge black eye that EVs get is pictures of them on the side of the road with a rescue vehicle and a gas generator recharging them because they ran empty. Having a 10 mile emergency battery in the glove box or something would alleviate some of that.
Teslas have been around for nearly two decades and they are still exploding into flames. Sodium Ion all the way.
Short answer is nope. Slightly less expensive to produce but significantly less effective. Pretty easy math.
Where are you getting the "slightly" and "significantly" out of your statement there?
@@LDSreliance From a video that shows sodium ion batteries would be about 25% cheaper to produce than lithium-ion, a benefit to manufacturers that would inevitably not fully translate to the marketplace, and also shows that sodium-ion batteries are 50% less effective than lithium-ion. In the case of electric vehicles, cutting the range in half.
Being half as effective means they'd need to be half as cheap to really make any sense as a disruptor. Being less dangerous and having more accessible materials isn't enough to dominate the marketplace with those challenges (in my opinion). Getting more cycles and being able to ship and store at a 0% charge is interesting, but I also don't think it's enough. And I'm not aware of any science or magic button to suddenly double the energy density of an element.
OK, and I agree with your logic. But the problem is a lot more nuanced than that. First, we are rapidly running out of a finite resource. And Economics 101 states that when supply decreases, the price goes up. So Sodium Ion, in its present form, may be half as energy dense and "effective" as NMC but it will soon be much, much cheaper than your 20% less expensive number you are citing.
Second, Sodium Ion will get better as more money is put into development. While it will never be as good as NMC, it likely will be much better than 50% as good.
Third, you are not factoring in the massive benefit of safety. Tesla constantly gets a black eye in the media for all the pictures of their cars on fire on the side of the road. So even if they have to add 100 pounds to each car by switching to LFP instead of NMC or LCO, they are doing it. And they will do the same with Sodium Ion.
Fourth, you are also not factoring in the cycle life of these batteries. They are on par with LFP, which lasts 4-5x longer than an NMC battery and 2-3x longer than an LCO battery. So that further undermines your argument about them only being 20% cheaper... because in the long run they are much, MUCH cheaper even in their present form of development, which will get even better.
@@LDSreliance Firstly, sodium-ion doesn't become less expensive as lithium gets more expensive, lithium just gets more expensive. That might change the percentage difference between them, but it doesn't make it a more cost effective option against all alternatives, just the increased cost of lithium.
Second, it doesn't matter how much research goes into sodium-ion, it's less energy dense than other elements. All the research in the world won't change the inherent physical limitations of an element.
Third, I did factor in safety, and I don't think the increased safety outweighs the massive drop in efficiency. We've seen lithium batteries catching fire on countless things, scooters, self phones, etc. It's not a Tesla problem, it's a problem with the battery technology. If safety was a meaningful factor to companies, a shift to older technology like sodium-ion would have already happened on a large scale... but it hasn't. While a *greater* risk, the number of incidents are pretty small. So, I completely disagree, there's a zero percent chance Tesla (or anyone) drops salt into their cars if it increases the weight and lowers the range, especially if the only reason they have is safety. EV already have enough challenges to be successful to anyone besides rich early adopters with lots of spare time to sit around waiting on a charge.
Fourth, I also definitely factored in life cycle. As previously stated, I think it's interesting, but not enough. If we say, very generously, that commercial clients actually see the 25% savings from production (and I think we all know they won't), you still need twice the batteries to get the same result, actually making it 50% more expensive. Less maintenance and a longer life-cycle are appealing, but there are already better storage technologies for scale that can also *actually* greatly benefit from research and development.
Besides, the average consumer isn't going to choose a phone twice as big, or the same phone that lasts half as long on a charge, just because a small number of users had their pockets catch on fire. Again, if there was any truth to that logic, a paradigm shift would have happened years ago. The trend in the advancement of technology is to become smaller and *more* efficient.
So, as an amateur fortune teller, those are the reasons *I believe* sodium-ion is definitely not the future of storage. But who knows, fortune telling may not be for me.
OK, I don't agree with any of that. But we can agree to disagree. Thank you for your thoughts.
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