Good review again! I will have another look at the Grozer bows, I like some of their designs. I prefer the ones that don't have leather covering the limbs, as I like to see what the bow is really made of. It's interesting to see the different arrow speeds when a different archer shoots the bow. As the draw length is the same, it must be due to a smoother release, or slightly better back tension, I imagine. It's also interesting to see the force-draw curves of the different bows together. Thanks!
+Iron Pirate I agree with you. But the technical differences should be "measured" to make sure about the reasons. Leather coverage slows the bows down but makes them look better, if you're after looking-alike with the originals. Composite bows' sinew-backed side is covered with beech bark or leather, as you might know, to protect the sinew and the glue from moisture. So, "traditional archery" as it means in the Old World, requires more or less look-alikes.
+abdulkabza Actually, I didn't know that sinew had to be covered for that reason. So I see that the leather is a more traditional look, which allows you to forget that there is perhaps wood and fibreglass underneath, in an affordable bow. Just to satisfy my curiosity though, I would like to see what kind of finish there is under the leather on some of the Eastern style bows!
hi murat thks so much for your videos . i remember in your "arsenal" video you showed many diffrent styles and brands . would it not be interesting to compare performance diffrences of the different style using the same methods here, staying between 45 and 50 pound draw weight at 28 . i might make a guess that bows like the turkish laminated would out perform most other styles .
+k lo Turkish laminated bow performs really well so, the self-confidence of Grozer makes sense. He really did an excellent job. I used TRH, presumably the "ancestor" of this bow, and it was a real performer. I did like it, but it didn't last too long. I have used two TRH and both broke in the past. But this bow is reportedly made of another -better- material. As said in the video, it should be more durable. Turkish laminated bow performs close to Korean Kaya bows, may be identical, but with the higher brace height it is more stabil and moe forgiving. In my opinion the only drawback is the deviation from the original design. But for anyone who wants a performer, it would be the first choice.
Very good and comprehensive testing/review on these bows. Well done! I was wondering if you would consider doing a review on some of my bows. I am just developing a Turkish style glass bow.Many thanks.
+Eclipse Archery Thank you very much! And yes, I would consider testing your bows. But I think there may be some difficulities in getting the bow. Where is Eclipse Archery located?
Very informative, useful test! A single observation if I may: a bow wouldn't have better efficiency with lower gpp (Turkish Biocomposite - 8 gpp compared to 9 gpp). I am curious about L1 Assyrian bow performance - I shoot one and it seems fast (but also fairly forgiving).
Right! Hevaier arrows always increases the efficiency. But depending to the requirement (speed, momentum, etc) the set-up is optimized. A flight arrow has a very alow momentumbut despite the wasted energy in transfer it travels much longer than a heavier arrow that absorbs more energy from the bow.
I can't seem to get an accurate answer from Grozer about how he measures the draw weight of his bows. When he says that the draw is 50# at 28 inches does he mean the distance from the nocking point to the belly of the bow, to the back of the bow or 26.25 inches to the belly and then he adds an arbitrary 1.75 inches so it is the AMO standard?
Traditional bows' draw weights are measuredat 28'' from the back of the bow. In Turkish bows it's a little bit complicated due to the grip form which is bulky on the back side. Still, the given draw weight matches more or less the weight we measured from the back. We took the belly as the reference edge for more accurate measurements though.
Dr. Ovzeri, That was an excellent comparative analysis! I am looking for a traditional non-western bow to hunt with so you timing is also perfect. Have you tried Istvan Toth's bows, I wonder?
Hello Sir! Thanks for your comment! And yes, we have an Istvan Toth bow in our group. Selim, one of the test shooters whose name was mentioned in the video, has been shooting a 67-something pound Magyar (Hungarian) bow. You can see it in other videos in my channel (Title: Khatra and Arrow Speed, 4:45-5:00 mins). This is the only model I've shot and of which performance I know. This is one of those bows that was covered with leather, therefore relatively low in performance. But in general, it's a beautiful and well-finished bow. However, I do not think it will generate enough energy for bowhunting unless you're shooting a very high poundage or hunt for small game.
Appearently, this bow is a wood-fiberglass laminate that is sinew-backed by using (probably) epoxy glue instead of organic glues. The belly side is reinforced (?) with a horn-like material. It's supposed to be a laminate produced by pressing horn-powder and a sort of filler together into the wanted shape. I do not know how much power or toughness these two materials add to the bow, but undoubtly they provide a much better "look-alike" appearance.
Love your videos! Really informative and have really furthered my passion for this wonderful tradition. I'm currently in the market for a new bow, and I was curious if you've had any experiences with the Golhan Sipahi made by Mehmet Gölhan. I'm currently debating over one of his as they seem like beautiful bows, or a Grozer Turkish Bio-composite. What do you think? Thanks!
Thank you very much! Yes, I do know Golhan's bows. They are too close to the original design but were found to be very unstable in terms of their resistance to twisting. I remember that a Golhan bow was unstrung during a shot in a re-enactment, in my hands. Similar happeden to a Tirendaz archer during a competition and she couldn't continue because she hadn't got a back-up bow. They're all-resin bows and like all the other bows of this technology there is such a weakness. Grozer biocomposites used to break very often in the beginning but Grozer claimed that he enhanced the "technology" (probably meaning the change of the material he uses or curing time, etc.). Now, they are much more long-lasting. And they are really efficient and fast, as can be seen in this video too.
Thank you so much for your reply! I'll stay away from the golhan bows for now then, thanks for your insight. You've mentioned before that you shoot your grozer Turkish base often, do you believe the Turkish base would be better if I would like a reliable bow and don't mind some loss in arrow speed? Thanks!
It is exactly as you analyzed! Turkish base s a very though bow, is very reasonable in price, but is inefficient compared to many other models. I'm givin' you some data to make you have an idea. Comparing a 50 lbs Turkish biocomposite with 60 lbs Turkish base revealed quite a big difference in the kinetic energy that the arrow carries. With 10 gpp arrow biocomposite transfered 38 footpound energy whiile Turkish base could reach to 33 footpound (remember that it's 10 pound heavier!). Practice showed that you'll have to shoot 50 cm above the target from 60 m distance (9-10 gpp arrow) with this 60 pounder. Shooting at distances upto 30-35 m, it's a comfortable bow though.
From your experience from better to worse which type of Turkish bow shoots more like a horn bow; base,laminate or bio composite? Which utilizes the leverage of the siyahs from better to worse?
Hornbows I shot were shorter than all the synthetic material replicas I've been shoting. Therefore, the draw characteristics are different. Horbows that allow a longer (over 28-28 1/2 inches) should be as long as or longer than 130 cm. 115-120 cm hornbows perform well with a 27 to 28 draw with some stacking at the end of draw. They have a remarkably low mass which is the case with laminated modern versions. Originals are smooth shooters and so are the synthetic-material counterparts. I would say that "biocomposite short" is a model that mimmicks the hornbows in his length and draw characteristics.
Merhaba Murat bey, Hollandadan selamlar. Abimle bir kac senedir grozer biocomposite ile atis yapiyoruz. Sizin tecrubenize guvenerek, performansi iyi olan yay markalar ve modeller hangileridir sizce? Performansi da onlemli, orijinal turk yayina benzemesi de.
Merhabalar! Grozer biocomposite, lamine yaylar içinde Türk yayının orijinal tasarımına en çok benzeyenlerden biri. Bu kanaldaki test videolarına göz atarsanız, tarafsız ve bilimsel donelerle yaptığımız yay testlerini göreceksiniz. Biz yerli üreticilerden Şimşek ve Keskin kullanıyoruz Tirendaz içinde ve iki üreticinin ürünlerinden de memnunuz.
A comparison without testing both modeşs wouldn't make any sense. And "good" is also a blurry term if it comes to bows. Efficiency may be a paramater that u can measure and evaluate but it is NOT the only feature to call a bow "good". A bow be made gracefully and be a great look-alike with low energy efficiency but U may fall in love with it.
Is Selim the only of the three test archers with memlük hatra? It looked like that to me. I wonder whether the purely forward cast could gives additional stress (and therefore more energy release?) on the upper limp, while side torques are effecting both limps and distribute potential energy more evenly. Pure speculation on my part Either way thanks for the work you guys have put into this, much appreciated
Thanks for your insights. One last thing, if I can draw 63# @27 inches with a self bow can I draw more with a Turkish hornbow? If so how much more would you estimate?
Hornbows are more difficult to draw longer due to the harsh draw characteristics. Longer bows have less steep increase in draw weight, i.e. It is also upto your shooting technique, where you anchor, how long you hold the string, which pullig technique you use (thumb draw allows longer draws).
Hi Mr. Murat, what is your opinion between Grozer Turkish biocomposite, Simsek hybrid and Golhan Turkish bow in term of quality, accuracy and similarity to the traditional Turkish bow which you prefer most? Also what is in your opinion best Turkish bow (or best manufacturer of Turkish bows)?
Hi! I can speak about the brands and models I and my crew have tested. You may find all the test videos on this channel in order to compare the harvested data of enery storage and transfer. Similarity to the authentic design is a qualitative parameter unlike the others that are objective, however we evaluate the bows qualitatively too and similarity wth the original design is one of the parameters that we evauate and give scores for. In most of the laminated bows it isn't easy to mae the kaan section of the Turkish bow and it is missing in high-quality laminated bows of Turkish bowyers like that of Keskin. Grozer biocompostie is a laminated bow that looks very authentic thanks to the kasan section. To my est knowledge there are only Grozer's biocomposite and Nawalny's Turkish bow that are laminated (with high enery efficiency) and have this kasan secton, hence better authenticity in appearence. Şimşek makes all-resin bows that are more look-alikes and have very high enery-efficiencies for bows of this material. we have been using Keskin and Şimşek bows in our grroup. Earlier Gölhan bows sucked, were prone to twisting in hot weather but I don't know whether it was enhanced material-wise.
Thanks Mr. Murat, I really appreciate your answer and knowledge. Are you maybe familiar with bows that are made by Ercan Özek (ua-cam.com/video/sMuqDtKOe0M/v-deo.html) and how to get in contact with this person. It looks like he is making horn bows? Not sure if you had any chance to test his bows? Also what Turkish bows you are using in your private collection? Thanks for answer!
+Mike dN I am making my thumb rings myself, but a member of us, Murat Kumas, has been making the thumb rings for our group, and provides rings for people outside of the group as well. I have and am using rings he made for me too. He can be reached on facebook on the page "Zihgir Atölyesi".
No, he keeps making Turkish base models. Turkish base is slow and ineffecient but a very durable bow. I av been using towo of them occassionally and with great pleasure.
Aesthetics43560 string and unstring as shown on the video,with one knee support and two persons to avoid even slight torques. It is also a laminated fiberglass bow but the horn substitute is prone to breakage
I have no issues with lighter than 9gpp arrows from my biocomposite bows. The stringing part have to be careful for bows made before second half of 2016. The bows with the new horn material are extremely durable!
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks a lot for this review - especially resuming about hunting qualities !it was very useful !
Thanks for the comment!
What a splendid test, very illuminating of the differences among the bow designs and excellent information for potential buyers, like me. Thanks.
Thanks!
Good review again! I will have another look at the Grozer bows, I like some of their designs. I prefer the ones that don't have leather covering the limbs, as I like to see what the bow is really made of.
It's interesting to see the different arrow speeds when a different archer shoots the bow. As the draw length is the same, it must be due to a smoother release, or slightly better back tension, I imagine. It's also interesting to see the force-draw curves of the different bows together. Thanks!
+Iron Pirate I agree with you. But the technical differences should be "measured" to make sure about the reasons. Leather coverage slows the bows down but makes them look better, if you're after looking-alike with the originals. Composite bows' sinew-backed side is covered with beech bark or leather, as you might know, to protect the sinew and the glue from moisture. So, "traditional archery" as it means in the Old World, requires more or less look-alikes.
+abdulkabza Actually, I didn't know that sinew had to be covered for that reason. So I see that the leather is a more traditional look, which allows you to forget that there is perhaps wood and fibreglass underneath, in an affordable bow.
Just to satisfy my curiosity though, I would like to see what kind of finish there is under the leather on some of the Eastern style bows!
hi murat
thks so much for your videos .
i remember in your "arsenal" video
you showed many diffrent styles and brands .
would it not be interesting to compare performance
diffrences of the different style using the same methods
here, staying between 45 and 50 pound draw weight at 28 .
i might make a guess that bows like the turkish laminated
would out perform most other styles .
+k lo Turkish laminated bow performs really well so, the self-confidence of Grozer makes sense. He really did an excellent job. I used TRH, presumably the "ancestor" of this bow, and it was a real performer. I did like it, but it didn't last too long. I have used two TRH and both broke in the past. But this bow is reportedly made of another -better- material. As said in the video, it should be more durable. Turkish laminated bow performs close to Korean Kaya bows, may be identical, but with the higher brace height it is more stabil and moe forgiving. In my opinion the only drawback is the deviation from the original design. But for anyone who wants a performer, it would be the first choice.
Very good and comprehensive testing/review on these bows. Well done! I was wondering if you would consider doing a review on some of my bows. I am just developing a Turkish style glass bow.Many thanks.
+Eclipse Archery Thank you very much! And yes, I would consider testing your bows. But I think there may be some difficulities in getting the bow. Where is Eclipse Archery located?
Very informative, useful test! A single observation if I may: a bow wouldn't have better efficiency with lower gpp (Turkish Biocomposite - 8 gpp compared to 9 gpp). I am curious about L1 Assyrian bow performance - I shoot one and it seems fast (but also fairly forgiving).
Right! Hevaier arrows always increases the efficiency. But depending to the requirement (speed, momentum, etc) the set-up is optimized. A flight arrow has a very alow momentumbut despite the wasted energy in transfer it travels much longer than a heavier arrow that absorbs more energy from the bow.
I can't seem to get an accurate answer from Grozer about how he measures the draw weight of his bows. When he says that the draw is 50# at 28 inches does he mean the distance from the nocking point to the belly of the bow, to the back of the bow or 26.25 inches to the belly and then he adds an arbitrary 1.75 inches so it is the AMO standard?
Traditional bows' draw weights are measuredat 28'' from the back of the bow. In Turkish bows it's a little bit complicated due to the grip form which is bulky on the back side. Still, the given draw weight matches more or less the weight we measured from the back. We took the belly as the reference edge for more accurate measurements though.
Dr. Ovzeri, That was an excellent comparative analysis! I am looking for a traditional non-western bow to hunt with so you timing is also perfect. Have you tried Istvan Toth's bows, I wonder?
Hello Sir! Thanks for your comment! And yes, we have an Istvan Toth bow in our group. Selim, one of the test shooters whose name was mentioned in the video, has been shooting a 67-something pound Magyar (Hungarian) bow. You can see it in other videos in my channel (Title: Khatra and Arrow Speed, 4:45-5:00 mins). This is the only model I've shot and of which performance I know. This is one of those bows that was covered with leather, therefore relatively low in performance. But in general, it's a beautiful and well-finished bow. However, I do not think it will generate enough energy for bowhunting unless you're shooting a very high poundage or hunt for small game.
Does the Bio composite not have horn and sinew plate?
Appearently, this bow is a wood-fiberglass laminate that is sinew-backed by using (probably) epoxy glue instead of organic glues. The belly side is reinforced (?) with a horn-like material. It's supposed to be a laminate produced by pressing horn-powder and a sort of filler together into the wanted shape. I do not know how much power or toughness these two materials add to the bow, but undoubtly they provide a much better "look-alike" appearance.
Love your videos! Really informative and have really furthered my passion for this wonderful tradition. I'm currently in the market for a new bow, and I was curious if you've had any experiences with the Golhan Sipahi made by Mehmet Gölhan. I'm currently debating over one of his as they seem like beautiful bows, or a Grozer Turkish Bio-composite. What do you think? Thanks!
Thank you very much! Yes, I do know Golhan's bows. They are too close to the original design but were found to be very unstable in terms of their resistance to twisting. I remember that a Golhan bow was unstrung during a shot in a re-enactment, in my hands. Similar happeden to a Tirendaz archer during a competition and she couldn't continue because she hadn't got a back-up bow. They're all-resin bows and like all the other bows of this technology there is such a weakness. Grozer biocomposites used to break very often in the beginning but Grozer claimed that he enhanced the "technology" (probably meaning the change of the material he uses or curing time, etc.). Now, they are much more long-lasting. And they are really efficient and fast, as can be seen in this video too.
Thank you so much for your reply! I'll stay away from the golhan bows for now then, thanks for your insight. You've mentioned before that you shoot your grozer Turkish base often, do you believe the Turkish base would be better if I would like a reliable bow and don't mind some loss in arrow speed? Thanks!
It is exactly as you analyzed! Turkish base s a very though bow, is very reasonable in price, but is inefficient compared to many other models. I'm givin' you some data to make you have an idea. Comparing a 50 lbs Turkish biocomposite with 60 lbs Turkish base revealed quite a big difference in the kinetic energy that the arrow carries. With 10 gpp arrow biocomposite transfered 38 footpound energy whiile Turkish base could reach to 33 footpound (remember that it's 10 pound heavier!). Practice showed that you'll have to shoot 50 cm above the target from 60 m distance (9-10 gpp arrow) with this 60 pounder. Shooting at distances upto 30-35 m, it's a comfortable bow though.
From your experience from better to worse which type of Turkish bow shoots more like a horn bow; base,laminate or bio composite?
Which utilizes the leverage of the siyahs from better to worse?
Hornbows I shot were shorter than all the synthetic material replicas I've been shoting. Therefore, the draw characteristics are different. Horbows that allow a longer (over 28-28 1/2 inches) should be as long as or longer than 130 cm. 115-120 cm hornbows perform well with a 27 to 28 draw with some stacking at the end of draw. They have a remarkably low mass which is the case with laminated modern versions. Originals are smooth shooters and so are the synthetic-material counterparts. I would say that "biocomposite short" is a model that mimmicks the hornbows in his length and draw characteristics.
Merhaba Murat bey,
Hollandadan selamlar.
Abimle bir kac senedir grozer biocomposite ile atis yapiyoruz. Sizin tecrubenize guvenerek, performansi iyi olan yay markalar ve modeller hangileridir sizce? Performansi da onlemli, orijinal turk yayina benzemesi de.
Merhabalar! Grozer biocomposite, lamine yaylar içinde Türk yayının orijinal tasarımına en çok benzeyenlerden biri. Bu kanaldaki test videolarına göz atarsanız, tarafsız ve bilimsel donelerle yaptığımız yay testlerini göreceksiniz. Biz yerli üreticilerden Şimşek ve Keskin kullanıyoruz Tirendaz içinde ve iki üreticinin ürünlerinden de memnunuz.
Between Tatar and mongol which one is better?
Do us can realize Tatar or mongol with 3finger ?
A comparison without testing both modeşs wouldn't make any sense. And "good" is also a blurry term if it comes to bows. Efficiency may be a paramater that u can measure and evaluate but it is NOT the only feature to call a bow "good". A bow be made gracefully and be a great look-alike with low energy efficiency but U may fall in love with it.
Thank you for the reply.I am in England, hopefully this wouldn't pose any problems.
+Eclipse Archery I do not think so. The bow could be shipped easily, or taken by someone who travels to UK.
Is Selim the only of the three test archers with memlük hatra? It looked like that to me. I wonder whether the purely forward cast could gives additional stress (and therefore more energy release?) on the upper limp, while side torques are effecting both limps and distribute potential energy more evenly. Pure speculation on my part
Either way thanks for the work you guys have put into this, much appreciated
Sascha Retzki.No,comparing two types of hatra revealed that giving torque to the handle, the outward hatra, increases the initial arrow velocity.
oh, Interesting. Thanks
Thanks for your insights. One last thing, if I can draw 63# @27 inches with a self bow can I draw more with a Turkish hornbow? If so how much more would you estimate?
Hornbows are more difficult to draw longer due to the harsh draw characteristics. Longer bows have less steep increase in draw weight, i.e. It is also upto your shooting technique, where you anchor, how long you hold the string, which pullig technique you use (thumb draw allows longer draws).
Hi Mr. Murat, what is your opinion between Grozer Turkish biocomposite, Simsek hybrid and Golhan Turkish bow in term of quality, accuracy and similarity to the traditional Turkish bow which you prefer most? Also what is in your opinion best Turkish bow (or best manufacturer of Turkish bows)?
Hi! I can speak about the brands and models I and my crew have tested. You may find all the test videos on this channel in order to compare the harvested data of enery storage and transfer. Similarity to the authentic design is a qualitative parameter unlike the others that are objective, however we evaluate the bows qualitatively too and similarity wth the original design is one of the parameters that we evauate and give scores for. In most of the laminated bows it isn't easy to mae the kaan section of the Turkish bow and it is missing in high-quality laminated bows of Turkish bowyers like that of Keskin. Grozer biocompostie is a laminated bow that looks very authentic thanks to the kasan section. To my est knowledge there are only Grozer's biocomposite and Nawalny's Turkish bow that are laminated (with high enery efficiency) and have this kasan secton, hence better authenticity in appearence. Şimşek makes all-resin bows that are more look-alikes and have very high enery-efficiencies for bows of this material. we have been using Keskin and Şimşek bows in our grroup. Earlier Gölhan bows sucked, were prone to twisting in hot weather but I don't know whether it was enhanced material-wise.
Thanks Mr. Murat, I really appreciate your answer and knowledge. Are you maybe familiar with bows that are made by Ercan Özek (ua-cam.com/video/sMuqDtKOe0M/v-deo.html) and how to get in contact with this person. It looks like he is making horn bows? Not sure if you had any chance to test his bows? Also what Turkish bows you are using in your private collection? Thanks for answer!
Thank you! Yes I know him and I am familiar w his bows.
What is your opinion on his bows? Are the horn bows? Do you have any contact detail like email of Mr. Ercan or how to get in contact with him? Thanks,
@@BojanJakovljevic-ny1bt Hornbows and good quality. I once shot a 96 pounder many years ago. I have unfortunately no contact w him
I had the L2 Tatar. Like the looks of my two new biocomposite Crimean Tatar bows better.
Great video, may I ask, what thumbring are you using and where did you get it? Or did you make it yourself?
+Mike dN I am making my thumb rings myself, but a member of us, Murat Kumas, has been making the thumb rings for our group, and provides rings for people outside of the group as well. I have and am using rings he made for me too. He can be reached on facebook on the page "Zihgir Atölyesi".
abdulkabza Thank you very much for the quick response,I'll definitely look into that, thanks
+Mike dN My pleasure!
Is Grozer still making turkish basic or just this new laminated turkish ?
No, he keeps making Turkish base models. Turkish base is slow and ineffecient but a very durable bow. I av been using towo of them occassionally and with great pleasure.
How have the biocomposite bows held up? Any concerns with durability?
I just ordered a 41 lb one and I'm pretty excited.
Aesthetics43560 not durable! Pls be careful in stringing and unstringing amd do not shoot arrows lighter than 9 gpp
Ouch they are that bad? Worse than a regular fiberglass laminated bow?
I typically string with the step through method so hopefully thats fine
Aesthetics43560 string and unstring as shown on the video,with one knee support and two persons to avoid even slight torques. It is also a laminated fiberglass bow but the horn substitute is prone to breakage
Thank you for the response. Now im worrried haha.
Inshallah the bow will last me.
I have no issues with lighter than 9gpp arrows from my biocomposite bows. The stringing part have to be careful for bows made before second half of 2016. The bows with the new horn material are extremely durable!
Can't see anything's what you tested
Didn't understand what u mean
@@abdulkabza I mean the chronograph result didn't see.
There are following vids. Part 1, 2, etc.
Grozer bow can be used in sub tropical climate area ? I'm from south east asia and how durable it is