1947 Farmall M Clutch Removal & Belly Pump Service
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Hello all! Well, in this video I tackle a project I have been meaning to do for a while. I go through how to remove the belly pump and clutch assembly on an M without splitting the tractor. IT can be done (and is actually fairly simple). I try to go through it as step-by-step as I can, and I hope you all learn something today. Stay tuned for the trip to Andover, SD tomorrow. It is time for the 150HP Case Steam Road Locomotive! Thanks for watching!
Seal part numbers are below:
Belly Pump Drive Seal: IH# 43509D superseded by 938294R91 SKF#13649
Belly Pump Actuator Arm Seal: IH# 19812D (used with shaft 15089E) or 494027R1 (used with shaft 15089EA) - parts diagram lists two different seals. SKF# 7512 for the IH# 19812D. This is the seal that I have had trouble fitting or finding a replacement that actually works. Navistar/SKF/Timken do not list a cross reference for the 494027R1 seal.
Trans Input Shaft Seal: IH# 43359D superseded by 71871C1 SKF# 20702
Trans Countershaft Seal: IH# 50839D superseded by 381907R91 SKF# 16113
Boy oh boy have I learned a lot I might have to watch again there’s a lot to take in ! I was so curious about the belly pump and how it was drivin and all the clutch pressure plate information is Awesome thank you for making this video. Words cannot express how helpful it all is exactly the perfect video for me! No I can ride your coat tails and look smart and that is pretty rare! Sorry about your friend with cancer but you are right life goes on and cancer is a part of life. My Uncle Pete died of cancer and he wanted me not to sit around and grieve him he said he was going to heaven so he wanted me to be happy for him and continue living my life. And I am sure it’s the same for you and God Bless you and your family and keep making videos you’re a very good teacher!👌
Very sorry to hear of your loss and I'm very glad that I could teach you something about these old tractors. Happy wrenching!
You are a god send, just pulled my clutch on my 48 model m with this method!!! Many thanks again!!!
Thanks, Cody! I am glad this helped!!!
As to John, at least you cared about him. You appear to have a noble heart. I also enjoy your videos.
Jim. Thanks for your kind comment. John was a heck of a guy. I always would joke with him and tell him I was born about 3 decades too late.
We miss a lot of friendships because we fail to reach out to folks. I am glad you do.
This channel wouldn't be what it is without all of you guys supporting me - (not that it is viral by any means)! (And John would watch it from time to time while in the hospital, too). I love connecting with people I talk to over both Facebook and UA-cam. The PEOPLE are the BEST part of this hobby!
That's for sure.
Learned something new. My grandfather always broke the tractor in half to replace the clutch sleeve carrier but this way you do not
Nope, on the H and M series you can get the clutch and driveshaft out without splitting. It wasn't until the 12" clutch in the Super M that it was necessary to split the tractor as the components are just barely too large to get out of the belly of the torque tube/clutch housing.
I really like the way you d that video was easy to understand it is helpful and you are really easy to understand thanks.good job
Thank you, Paul. I'm very glad to hear that you enjoy it and that the video is helpful. That's the whole reason I do them.
Good job! The old girl sounds good!
Thanks, bud!
Very instructive video I look forward to more I’ll be working on my m’s. Thanks
Very glad you enjoyed, sir.
Great job on all of your videos. I have been (ever so slowly) restoring my 1941 Farmall H model. Serial FBH 21044. I have installed the PTO system that was missing (the one with drive dogs, not splined) I am a bit concerned that it won't be able to handle significant load like rototiller attachment. Guess we'll see. I currently have a hydraulic pump that goes in front of the magneto instead of the belly pump, but after watching this video, I am contemplating installing a belly pump.
In my opinion, I would install the pump in front of the magneto. This will give you live hydraulics like the Stage II Super H. Quite a bit more useful than the belly pump.
Finally getting around to watching all the vids! Looks like a job just getting that pump down from the tractor and back up in it! I'm gonna have to do that on my H and M pretty soon. They are both pretty leaky... And Thanks for the Shout out buddy!!
It's not too hard of a job - biggest thing is lower it SLOW. When it finally slips out of the belly of the tractor, it is VERY tippy, and VERY heavy. It will definitely smash your finger or hand if it lands on it - so if it starts to fall you are better off letting it go! Glad to give you a shout out - I appreciate all the conversations!
Good job, very interesting video! Thanks Kenny
Thanks, Mike! Glad you came along!
Great video. Looks and sounds fantastic. Thank you!
Thanks, Martin! I hope it helps people in the future!
Love your collection.
Thanks, Anthony! Hopefully I can grow it a little more! :-)
Gee you make that look so easy!! You need a tranny cradle for your floor jack. They come in handy for those types of situations when you are by yourself. I didn't recall you ever saying the pump leaked but you have quite a herd of tractors, I must of missed it. I still remember it sitting at the junk yard, locked up. It has come a long, long way.
It actually was not too difficult at all. The most difficult part is removing the pump itself (balancing it), and then remembering the order of operations in removing the clutch and reinstalling it. A tranny cradle would be NICE. So would a welder! That tractor has been through the ringer, that is for sure. Definitely have been in it UP TO MY ELBOWS. I think that is why I just couldn't part with it.
If you can't find a new drive dog or your grooves are too deep you can take it to a machine shop and have it turned down and a thin sleeve turned and pressed on to create a new sealing surface.Crankshafts are repaired this way. You can use this method for a lot of parts where you have a sealing surface. Normally you turn the sleeve to a sufficient thickness and shrink fit it on. Just a tip. Also glad to see you make proper gaskets and not just smear some rtv on everything.
Thanks for the info, Johnny! I was able to get the drive dog cleaned up nicely with some emery cloth, and it is holding well now. I believe there is a company out there that makes what is called Speedy-Sleeves to do the same thing you are speaking of. Essentially it is to make the shaft true again, to allow for a good seal. I usually use RTV sparingly. I like to take a VERY thin layer and coat the gasket just to help it stick and seal.
The shop I worked for had a jack that fit into the big hole and the bottom with a key way. I slid in sideways and had screw jack to lower it down.
Yes, I have seen multiple different ways/tools used to lower the pump. I believe in some of the old IH books, they have a two-person tool available. Almost like two big T-handles that slide in the cultivator hole in the bottom of the pump, and each person helps lower it down.
Hi Kenny, this video has encouraged me to fix the leak from the front of the transmission/hydraulic belly pump. Please comment back on the part numbers of the seals, where they go, and where to buy them.
From the video I see you successfully found 3 of the 4 seals. in my searches I am only finding 1 or possibly 2...
Your experience is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Henry
Henry, here is what I have for seal numbers. I ordered all of them as SKF (insert part number) from eBay or Amazon. You could go to your local NAPA and get them with the SKF numbers as well. The hydraulic actuator arm is the seal I have had trouble finding a replacement for. I ended up doctoring the one I have and so far it has been holding. Anyhow, here are the numbers. I hope you find this helpful.
Belly Pump Drive Seal: IH# 43509D superseded by 938294R91 SKF#13649
Belly Pump Actuator Arm Seal: IH# 19812D (used with shaft 15089E) or 494027R1 (used with shaft 15089EA) - parts diagram lists two different seals. SKF# 7512 for the IH 19812D. Navistar/SKF/Timken do not list a cross reference for the 494027R1 seal.
Trans Input Shaft Seal: IH# 43359D superseded by 71871C1 SKF# 20702
Trans Countershaft Seal: IH# 50839D superseded by 381907R91 SKF# 16113
Also, here is a link to an online parts schematic. I am sure you can also get the parts from Case-IH. www.messicks.com/cas/48950
I k ow this is a old video I’m just hoping to find out witch seals need two ordered
Hi Kenny, did you ever find the right seal for the belly pump actuating shaft where it comes through the reservoir housing? Thanks, Mike
No sir. I was unable to locate it. I ended up doctoring it up with a little RTV.
@@KennyKizzleRustyNutzRanch OK, too bad it wasn't available. I dropped the belly pump on my M today and hopefully the only seal I will have to replace will be the countershaft double seal. Can you advise me on what type of gasket material to use? I've never made one but it looks like I'll have to try if I tear into the pump itself. Also Kenny, what type of oil do you use in the belly pump? Same as the engine oil? Thanks again for your help. Your videos have proven invaluable!
@@mikebailes172 You can order a gasket from Case IH for the pump, otherwise I would just get a sheet of FelPro gasket material. 1/32" thickness should be sufficient. The pump uses SAE30 weight oil.
@@KennyKizzleRustyNutzRanch Thanks Kenny, really appreciate your time and help!
@@mikebailes172 you're very welcome!
the IH dealers had a pair of Tee handles that went thru that funny lookin slotted hole in the very bottom of the pump. this tool was incerted in each sid and 2 mechanics blocked the pump and then got into position and lowered it down manually. i have used these tools IT service book i had had a print for making them
Yessir, I know the T handles you are speaking of. Little hard to operate them by yourself, though!
the dealership modified the ones the shop had and made it into a jig for a floor jack this prevented the pump from tilting or falling of the jack when R & R ing it
when i was working for the IH dealership a customer with a 60hp M was pulling a 14ft disk and twisted off the clutch shaft a helper and i had to fix it in the field we had it repaired in 3 hours the customer took the 2 of us to the local cafe for lunch.
That is a pretty big disk for an M - but she didn't run out of power (just strength in the driveline). These things were designed and meant to be able to be fixed in the field. Unlike the tractors of today.
A manual I have mentions you have to time the engine in a certain way before I remove the pump. Is that not nessesary? Thank you
Only if it is the live hydraulic pump. The live hydraulic pump is driven off the cam gear, and serves as the timing gear for the ignition system. In this case, yes. But the belly pump is not timed to anything, nor is it a live pump. It is driven off of the transmission countershaft and in no way affects engine timing.
@@KennyKizzleRustyNutzRanch thank you
The 45 H I worked on looked a lot the same, however the front hall of the drive yolk slid forward 5/16 so I could rotate the coupler to get it apart and replace the bearings in trans and bottom shaft, I reckon the front shaft slid into the clutch spline. The original seals all had CR stamped in small letters
Yessir, the H and M can both be replaced through the belly. It wasn't until the Super M that the tractor required to be split. The 12" clutch wouldn't quite fit out of the belly of the tractor. This prevented you from removing the driveshaft coupler and shaft... I am sure I will have to do my H at some point as well. Was thinking of using it for a restoration project next.... We will see what spring brings!
Love the how to video .
Thanks, Steve. Glad you enjoyed.
Great vids. after watching the balancing act, I would think just running up a couple dowel bolts to guide assy down with floor jack?
Yes, a lot of people use threaded rod. I have had pumps out a couple times so I am confident in my balancing technique - but absolutely would recommend it to anyone who is looking for a little added security and safety! (No OSHA in my garage)!
Hey man how's it goin really appreciate you taking time to share your knowledge
It's going! Thanks for the kind comment!! I don't recommend anyone do things the way I do it, but it seems to work well for me!
Great video I have 2 H tractors and the pumps need work thanks for the time and videos is the output shaft seal the same as the pto seal?
You're welcome! I'm glad that the video was helpful. That's the goal with all of my videos - to help people out as much as I can with these old things.
Great video! It dont take much defect for a seal to leak. Those belly pumps gotta weigh 100lbs.
The shaft seals were shot, two of three of them were worn through to the springs. The belly pump is heavy, but once you get the balance down, lowering with a jack, you really only need one hand to steady it. If it starts tipping, though, she will go fast!
on the pump drive farmall parts had a chicago rawhide sleeve and seal kit that you pressed a sleeve on the drive block and used red locktiite when you pressed the sleeve onto the block.
M&W gear co and tisco made a high capacity oil tank that replaced the lift all pump assembly when installing the hydraulic pump in front of the mag or distributor
Good info, here. What DIDN'T M&W make for these IH tractors?! Man, you could get just about anything cool for them. I have seen guys just make a plate that mounts to the back of the reservoir, and remove the pump. This would add at least 2-3 quarts capacity to the tank without the pump in it.
when farmall developed the factory 2way upgrade valve they discovered the pump pressure and volume was too low to handle a 4 inch bore 2way cylinder thus the pump upgrade. when dad bought the live cessna pump from TSC the original tank was gutted and the drive shaft hole was welded shut. the reserve oil supply was adaqit only if you had the entire system full and usted 2 way cylinders on the loader. as for M&W here is what i remember they had in their catalog.. engine sup up kit which included stroked crankshaft with rods and special pistons larger valves and seats high lift camshaft carb kit governor kit special timing advance weights and springs higher volume water pump end result 85hp. heavy duty clutch and pressure plate heavier clutch shaft.. for the transmission a 9 spd kit a live pto hand clutch kit and disk brake upgrade kit and the friction throttle.. note with the engine upgrade kit to 85 hp it was balanced for more than factory rpm as it had a shorter stroke so the higher hp was achieved thru more rpm with the other enhancements.
Wow - that is pretty impressive that they could get 85hp out of it with mostly "bolt on" accessories. I don't think my pump has had the upgrade kit - only way to know for sure would be to plumb in a pressure gauge to see what it is putting out. I would be willing to bet it is about 4-500psi.
the early lift all pumps were only 450psi low volume pumps farmall made n upgrade kit with a larger gears and a pressure relief valve that increases the pressure to 750psi and much more volume
Yea my 1940 M is putting out 500 p.s.i.
that is why that seal did not fit. also the lift all pump from the f20 will fit the M or the H.the farmer next door to our farm had a1939 H sn 0113 on steel .no hydraulic no belt pulley and no electric start and a solid pipe seat pedestal and it was on distillate . he farmed 100acres with it and it pulled a 6ft disc and a 2-12 trip plow. since it was on steel 5th gear was blocked from engaging..
@@brokenwrench1 wow...beat looking at a horses ass all day lol
i learned to farm with a 51 farmall H it was my tractor dad used a ac d15 we did all planting spraying and cultivating with the H it came out from the factory with the high compression piston set which dynoed out at 30.5hp just enough HP to pull a 10ft disk in 3rd gear in most ground.
I love hearing these stories! I would like to rebuild the H next.. More on that to come (I have a video planned with some ideas).
I know this video is a couple years old, but do you know what direction the pump is to spin? I bought a pump in auction the other day and would like to make it pto driven. Judging by how the dog came out I think it would be clockwise so it tighten by rotation.
Well, looking from the front of the engine towards the rear. The engine turns clockwise, all the way back to the transmission. The hydraulic pump is driven off the countershaft in the bottom of the trans, which turns counter clockwise (looking from the front). That shaft drives the hydraulic pump directly. So, if you are looking from the front of the pump to the back, the shaft would be turning counter clockwise, but if you are looking from the back of the pump at the drive dog forward, you would be looking at clockwise rotation.
@@KennyKizzleRustyNutzRanch thanks
You may have said it in your video but is the deal that you built the tool for to loosen a right hand thread?
The tool was made to remove the hydraulic pump drive cog from the front of the countershaft. These are NOT reverse thread.
@@KennyKizzleRustyNutzRanch okay thank you! I got to that point and I thought it was pressed on until i watched your video.
Hi Kenny, in this video you mention a "manual" that gives direction in this process of belly pump maintenance. Could you tell me how I could get that manual? Thanks, Mike
It is the International Harvester Blue Ribbon service manual for the Hydraulic Lift All. I purchased mine on eBay. www.ebay.com/itm/Hydraulic-Belly-Pump-Lift-ALL-Farmall-H-M-MD-IH-Shop-Service-Owners-Manual-Set/283688429634?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item420d25e842:g:cjAAAOSw2bRd3FdA&enc=AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickk7PdDazAlGltMLJlUhrWsD2JL7FBYi95tnKX%2BOyk5om5eyGtjJgaP7gpiFIXfFQX7nHLbolBqJlofQBy40vYSbX6Dgy93Zuqppt6ZY7jNugCyPQpHplCgCsiL7M7y0iN9V0khOuSxn1nOqfRzzAxxvLfPH1EB5TW%2BFVl1hpgxKiM5ysUGUwFLARHkAkDwrkMaEKFnKP2TuVZvnaCuNggTF990huZP3geIt8j%2FkQP4543gmYqIXhMIMWi0VrcHoQXu3vXN1IVSI3Ee%2BDIEUaNgEjPk6OuPjyCNtat%2BAUGfrNYcuu9M6Ewp5x0%2FM9Sa0AulWH6lZwtIeMiJHhviyPbGyrY5aWz596iFuIdJSFD%2BHrY4pKAz2URoUYhQeFh4%2B9eew4q0ds6Aofih3vVzQmyjmCjoBQqmOU246dey3yb1Fi%2F4q2%2Brro8mnJ%2FYP%2BjYf0B5Gqkh0F4JbY%2BCEkb%2BBRQ5beGftzJcIpBcSVv3t70bXuW1Q4pq0bpi%2FrH5mTVFxzWRWOI%2FAnGRAHw70%2BPPGtw5Mj528RcYxJjUj8H2XpCNmXkbYUSnVpkqajCvg6T8p%2FMsPnNrm2C3iB9%2Fvr55n%2BqetRqta1%2BRZ66pJG6H3Z5aTWAiPdpYCr9XvYED6IYYF6OmNKymJD%2FDPHfPS7Ol7EXid3hZQWHsduvoogurgbOiM%2BWBxvtxISdDsTFo%2FMnVh%2B8taJzv9Evb2D%2Fhd6rYHtluLxhW0%2FWHYnXx3mzMpF0sDDvJuCUrL6UUCfBwFmvr8y8PxnjXVvvh3GrKybGdtzBWXA%3D%3D&checksum=28368842963487b90b6cf7714d19aebc2ed0bf3e7430
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Why is there nothing on replacing a M&W hand clutch?
Probably because no one has taken the time to film themselves doing any repairs on it. Many people are camera shy.
My super m is pouring all the hydraulic oil out. I'm guessing it need seals. Does it remove the same way this one does?
If it is the belly pump, yes. Comes out the exact same. Full seal kits are not available. You will have to buy each seal individually. I made my own gaskets.
Kenny, my pumps works as well just leaks. Where did you get the seals and can you give me the part n umbers please?
Jeff. I believe I found the seals on eBay. I cross-referenced them from the Case-IH site to the SKF Seal interchange guide. Hyd pump drive shaft seal # 43509D -> 938294R91 SKF 13649 and Control Shaft Seal # 19812D SKF 7512 or 494027R1. The Control shaft seal was not the correct seal for my pump - luckily I was able to use the old one and doctor it up with a little RTV gasket maker. While I was in there I did the transmission input shaft seals. Trans shaft seal for lower shaft #381907R91 SKF 16113
. Upper trans main shaft seal # 71871C1 SKF 20702. Hope this helps.
Really great and very helpful video. Working thru same things for my 1939 Farmall M. Any types or directions as to how to remove the half-moon woodruff key on the transmission input shaft yoke coupler that must be removed to change the housing seal behind it. Thanks very much & would appreciate any response/directions.
Thanks, Bruce! There was nothing out there for these belly pumps, so I decided to make a video of my own - and I am glad I did! I think I used a combination of a brass drift and hammer, and a vice grips to get the woodruff key out. It is half moon,so if you hit it down on one end, the other end will pop up and you should be able to grab ahold of it. If you mark it up you can always clean it up carefully on the bench grinder, or using a vice and a file.
Did Case IH offer an explanation as to why the one seal was too big? Did the silicone fix hold up okay? Looking forward to the Case 150 episode!
So far, the seal is holding up. I didn't order the seal from Case, but from eBay. I'm not sure what the explanation is for the incorrect seal size. I'm working on the Case 150 episode right now - it will be a LONG one, but worth it!
I watched a couple other Case 150 highlights. Looking forward to yours!
I just finished uploading it and watched it through - found a couple mistakes so had to delete it and fix them. It is re-uploading now! Should be available in a couple hours! Get your popcorn ready!
My evening movie choice problem has been solved!
Hope you have your popcorn ready!
Good evening Kenny! Having a throttle issue with my Super H. Ill pull the throttle up to engage, and it seems to take about 3 to 5 seconds to actually catch up to the speed selected. Have a slow oil drip coming from the governor as well?? not sure if that has anything to do with it. Any ideas? I can send you a video of it if need be.
There are a few things to check. First make sure your linkages aren't binding anywhere. A good coat of heavy, waterproof grease is what I always recommend on all the pivot points. Second, usually the weak spot in the governor is the spring. If you pull the inspection cover off, that spring should never have any slop in it. Even at rest it should be fairly tight. Otherwise you might have worn weights/pins in the governor. Unlikely it is the bearing. Oil could be dripping from the cover plate gasket, or the seal on the backside where the governor arm goes in to the housing.
@@KennyKizzleRustyNutzRanch Ok, ill have to pull the cover and check when I head back home. Interesting thing to note, is its all original but you can tell the governor and linkage tube was worked on because its black, not sure when it was worked on or what company its from. But ill have to checked the internals to verify there's no play and go from there. Thank you!
@@bbplayer546 I wonder if the tractor has an M&W governor setup? Could be worth checking into. I believe they have four weights inside instead of two. A video might help us help you figure it out as well.
Kenny Kizzle honestly it might, the guy I bought it from, bought it from a friend of his who had it in a museum down in Florida. I’m trying to figure out what was so special about it. But It might have that setup on there, I’m heading home in 2 weeks so I’ll post a video up around that time!
Sounds good. Did it come from Paquette's Farmall Museum in Leesburg, FL? He has quite the collection of tractors, and some wonderful displays. I hope to be lucky enough to visit someday. Check it out here: ua-cam.com/video/uh_2bYJR8Ko/v-deo.html
Would the clutch on an MTA/400/450 be serviced the same way?
Unfortunately, no. The clutch on those tractors is just a little larger than a standard M. Late Super M thru 450 clutch replacement requires splitting the tractor. The clutch pressure plate is too large to get out of the opening in the belly of the clutch housing. Splitting the tractor really isn't difficult, you just need to make sure you stabilize the front section really well.
@@KennyKizzleRustyNutzRanch good to know. Thanks for the info!
@@RustyCarnahan you're very welcome!
thank you for the great info..ipulled my rump out of my h..i used ur idea abut the tool u had built..but cud not keep it on the drive slot so i added a piece of pipe that fit down over the coupling.. and with the impact..off it came..i seen in another video that you have to go counterclockwise wise on the counter shaft..and counterclockwise on the pump too..
am now looking for some reasonable priced bearings & seals tsk agin... buttercup....
You're welcome. A lot of the seals can be cross referenced using the SKF cross referencing website. Then, you can order them off Amazon or eBay for a fraction of the dealer price. I also have all of the seal part numbers in the description above. Here is the link for the seal cross reference guide (just type in the seal number and it will give you the crossed replacement): www2.chicago-rawhide.com/popup_parts_lookup_457012.htm
Will that work for a 56 Farmall 400 TA
I don't believe so - the late Farmall Super M, MTA, 400, and 450 all have a 12" clutch I believe. The standard M is an 11" clutch and will fit through the belly of the tractor. The 12" clutch requires that you split the tractor to get it out.
Hope she holds. I did seals and a new dog on the pump and it still leaked☹️ I had pretty good wear marks on the pump dog also......went to live hydraulics after that $$$ that’s another whole story mine is a 47M also.
I'm hoping so. I have checked the fluid level a couple times now since filling it and reinstalling the loader, and it doesn't seem to be leaking any! So far, so good!
These tractors were pretty easy to service. I think you could get the flywheel out of the M without splitting the tractor. Not so on the Super M. I have a video you might be interested in. Here is the dog that we had for the belly pump on our H and M tractors. It made taking the pump out a breeze. ua-cam.com/video/LHc7ZuHrD7M/v-deo.html
Thanks for sharing. to my recollection we never had one apart.
Yessir. Thank you for the help! We were able to get it fixed easily with the quick tool I asked Domino to make for me!