I feel like the sensible thing would be to include the relevant, "ally-able Daemons" in each CSM Codex, and then also have all the Daemons in there own Codex together, so you could balance both the Daemons as allies and Daemons as their own army. And sure, that could result in two different versions of the same unit, but they're already doing that with Imperial Agents, and we don't have any crisis about Battle Sister Squads or Grey Knight Terminators.
They will do just that with the aeldari codex. They said that the book will include all the drukhari units that ynnari can take. So it looks like we will have 2 different datasheets and point cost for those units.
Honestly I like daemons in their cult factions and as apart of csm sure they're different sheets but that's not a player problem you go play against lord of change in csm and it might buff psychic attacks by +1 str and have lethal sustained etc from csm then you see it in tsons and it has +1 wound from the detachment and a different point value gw has already shown they can do this with stuff like the forgefiend in every chaos book minus daemons and death guard and so far it's worked pretty well
The existence of the Grotmas detachments says to me that the Chaos Daemons index will stick around, at least until edition's end. After that, and it's up to GW. (Though if enough people complain...)
Unless they roll the grotmas detachments into the 4 godbooks as a way for them to run demons only. I think this possible but would probably bet against it, though even if they did I do think a Daemon index would stick around for people who want to run mixed Daemons.
@@JohnathanCronnelly we'll most likely get the indexes we have here and that's it it would be strange to just scrap the indexes and lock the individual god armies behind books at that point
@@JohnathanCronnellythe nurgle detachment rule and half of its enhancements are based around the daemons army rule, and in a way it couldn't just be replaced by DG's contagions.
@@jcmsaucey6555So they'd get a new daemons detachment in the Death Guard Codex that doesn't care about the old Daemons Army Rule when they send the Daemons index to Legends
The crazier thing would be if they end up releasing a Salamanders book after axing Harlequins and Daemons.
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I just don’t understand why sallies? Surely you give white scars a book there’s way more potential for cool models and they’re an actual mirror to EC and one of the only psyker heavy loyalist armies
most likely a second big release for 'generic marines' halfway in the edition, it happened with the excellent Shadowspear box in 8th, and the disappointing Strike Force Agastus in 9th. I heard rumors about some welcome new units, (no spoiler) and also for a Salamander character but nothing about a dedicated book
could also throw them generically into csm as well for legions like word bearers too and have those unified chaos daemons as a part of csm so the flavor can exist
I'd rather my daemons go to CSM than my deity legions. Daemons don't fill any roles needed, and just feels like an excuse to not give us actual God aligned models
@@TheDiddler267that’s a pretty good point. This is pretty evident with WE, given that khorne has basic dudes and cavalry on juggernauts, which we have one and have characters for the other
Yep, Disciples of Be'lakor is what I'm worried about... All of my Knights are painted in House Korvax colors to be support to my Disciples army. I hope we get a detachment at least...
Rob (honest Wargamer) covered this in a bit of detail during a Juggz episode and they still have 'contacts/friends' still in GW... GW have an apparent bizarre internal culture where the game systems are competing against each other for their sales totals and budgets. Apparently the guy now running Old World (might be all specialist games) has been having issue with any kind of AOS/Old world cross over because you can't track correctly how well the system is selling vs their rivals (so mad to me that they think like this internally as a company, I get for rival companies, but your own internal games... just odd) so for example had a recent note go through the company saying 'Absolutely no AoS Skaven from the recent release may appear in Old World books, army shots etc' Rob also mentioned that Daemons had come under fire by this person because not are they on AOS, but 40K too, Rob wasn't sure where it was going to go, but had heard rumours of changes, removals of Daemons army books from other settings so sales are cemented for one of the games, also why Beastmen seemed to up and vanish from AoS recently as Beasts of Chaos are a thing in Old World. I struggle to understand the whole idea, hell if you consider even just five years ago it felt like GW was leaning into 'this thing is for AoS but you could also really use it for 40K wink wink' the whole situation is just odd.
It bonkers isn't it. I don't see how putting Daemons in god books clarifies sales unless they are reboxed into the marine god factions and/or they go from AOS.
@ I have a feeling they will be all faction boxed. So in AOS if Khorne Daemons get rolled into Blades of Khorne, they'll be marked as such, while under World Eaters for 40K... I might be wrong on that, but I agree with your point. If you don't mark them separately, it seems a mute point in the first place for sales data.
I think it suck. We a losing a whole uiqec army and having them wrap up into four C-space marine echo armies. And with the hint we are get another SM army like the Dammed Legion as a book, it’s becoming ridiculous how many marine armies their are.
There is absolutely no excuse to not support all the factions they make when they make record profits every fucking year. They can take those profits and scale their business to meet demand instead of giving it to a damn CEO.
I'd love to soup in Tzeentch daemons with my Thousand Sons so long as the rules don't kneecap them, but I can see mixed daemon plays being pissed with the change.
As a fellow Tsons player it feels more like an excuse to not finish the chaos armies and say "You get 2 armies in 1, stop complaining" and that would suck.
@@inkcupcake2954 I mean. Souping all the various aspects of Tzeentch is kindof the reason i got into thousand sons. Very likely will not be the only way to play them
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@@inkcupcake2954This is literally just complaint for the sake of complaint I don’t know a single person who plays a god legion and doesn’t want full access to the daemons I’m sorry: you *like* having one singular list we can run without ignoring our army rule and throwing??
I'm old enough (don't ask) that I still remember Daemonic Animosity, or whatever it was called, so the idea of having Khorne and Slaanesh Daemons in the same army for example always annoyed me. I still feel that splitting the Daemons out like this is overly messy, breaking existing armies for no reason and making Daemonic allies very awkward for armies like Word Bearers or Black Legion who have very solid reasons to take Daemons from multiple powers. There's also the fact that it leaves less room in the Codexes for interesting new Cult units, like Berserker Terminators or Butcher Surgeons for World Eaters or those rumoured automata for Thousand Sons. That said, it possibly does open up some very interesting armies for the Cult Legions. I know at least one WE player who's quite excited by the possibility of running Angron with an army of Khorne Daemons, and all my own Daemons have always functioned as allies to mono-Power CSM and Cult armies anyway. I do think it'd be a seriously backward step to remove Daemons as a faction altogether. I also think GW's determination to try to stop armies being playable in more than one system (40k/ Heresy/ AoS/ Old World) is an extremely poor idea. I only really have time to play and build for 40k, but I was at least able to make up an AoS Hedonites army with my Daemons if someone really wanted a game. The lesser-played Warhammer games need as few barriers to entry as possible for people lured in by 40k, but GW seem intent on erecting more.
@captaincosmo6157 Think I'm thinking of the early Realm of Chaos books which had rules for both 40k and Fantasy in them, but I go back to Rogue Trader and original WFB so things get a bit blurry!
If they get rid of the demon codex that would eliminate you being able to take demons along with regular CSM. That would be crazy. Word bearers without demons? Whats the point! I think theyre just adding the demons to the god aligned codexes to flesh out the factions a bit more and allow better rules synergy, not deleting the demon codex entirely.
@eviljoshy3402 good for you? Do you feel the need to bring up how big and cool your 3d printed models are every time someone talks about a range refresh?
Seriously if demons are getting a worse than agents treatment I hope there will be a larger fallout than there was with deathwatch. Who got un squatted
just starting collecting daemons 2 weeks ago, talk about a gut punch. really hope it continues there's so many cool things to be done with undivided daemons.
@clique7386 new player. I am starting as well. I was going to build the old daemons set up of belakor, keeper of secrets, the unclean one, and tzeetch one forgot name.. i was about to buy when I notice a new update happen a week prior. I start researching as I was more inclined to a slaanesh army. I just started getting some of the models. I be piss if I had gone more diverse. For right now, I'm more focused on slaanesh, so I should be a bit more future proof.
Didn't GW say that the Grotmas detachments would be future-proof? I took that as implying even if they didn't get a Codex they'd still be playable in Index.
@@LordCrate-du8zm becuase having one of the oldest armies being forced to be index only should make us daemons players ever so happy, right? And GW has never reduced support for a faction and then dropped them next edition before
@@RtTal That's actual bullshit. 1. Demons have only 5 possible detachment options: undivided, and one for each god. You got your codex for fucking free and you still think you have the right to complain. 2. They tapered off support for Harlequins and before cutting them. They have a measly 5 units and that's because GW was slowly cutting them off.
@@LordCrate-du8zm 1) So if your army didn't get a codex, and was having its units pulled into other factions, you can honestly say you wouldn't be pissed about losing support for GW? The Grotmas detachments were great, I'd love if that's how GW handled every faction. But they don't, so not getting a faction codex feels like a slap in the face, saying "you're not important enough to support. 2) what says that they won't treat daemons like harlequins? We have a ton of resin and only ever get model support from fantasy. It's not a fucking stretch to look at this and worry that come tenth, we're toast, especially since - despite years of rumours - GW doesn't want to say anything about undivided daemons. I'm sorry, but if this was your favourite army I don't believe for a second you'd be comfortable with the situation for your collection.
@@RtTal If they didn't want undivided demons they wouldn't have given Belakor a Space Marine on his base. Your faction has at least one option of running solo, and in the future monogod detachments in codexes are definitely something that I can see happening.
I am new to wh40k, i spent over 1,000 dollars on chaos daemons and painted them all. I never played a game yet and i guess i never will. Sad times. So long warhammer models
It’s definitely feelsbad. The Grotmas Detachments soften the blow, but still bad, especially for people running Undivided armies (aka the most popular way to play them). People probably don’t want to either buy up four other armies and/or go through the hassle of selling off some of their daemons. Although I do idly wonder if the decision was to simplify future daemon releases: due to the nature of the army really being four subfactions, unless if they did a huge range release, if they were doing the thing of having a single character release from one subfaction, the fans of the other gods would start to cry foul of GW skipping them (see: the 9e CP being just Khorne and nothing else). Would make things simpler if they were attached to the regular monogod Legions.
yea i agree 100%, i play world eaters as my second army so i have that but i have no interest or care for the other 3, painted them up nicely so they will just be how they are on shelving worst case
I just want clarity. What am I meant to do for the rest of this edition? Continue stretching out my daemons, hoping we won't get killed in 11th? Expanding into an army of marines I don't like? Giving up?
Regarding future daemon releases, daemons are AoS models not 40k so they always get their releases from AoS's release schedule. So if they hadnt done this daemons where prob the exception of the "every codex comes with a model release" (and they prob only officially said that cause daemons wherent getting a codex) and we'd have to wait for the relivent AoS releases to get new models (assuming those models aren't all mortals like last edition, and that they actually decide to port over any new daemon models). So yeah there's a chance that one of the reasons for this is that the 40k team arent allowed to support stand alone daemon releases like they do with everyone else.
Bad time to start a Chaos Daemons army...I just wanted to field 4-7 greater deamons and have a monster mash. Guess we'll have to see how I can use these models.
Then don't. You likely already have all the Daemon models you need for a full army. GW are unlikely to build the whole Codices around needing to have mortals. That would be kind of weird. (It would also explain why Emperor's Children apparently have an army rule that's conditional army-wide Advance & Charge, rather than anything more specific to the Legion. It's there to make the army playable for the Slaanesh daemons as well.)
I think the biggest tell is that GW hasn't said anything. If Daemons are staying as an army, they're incentivized to tell people so that they can keep buying models.
I feel very conflicted about this, on one hand I like that the Cult Legions are getting more access to Daemons, it injects a bit of fluff back into the game and bulks up the rosters, but I also can't help but be disappointed a bit that Daemons are gone. I really hope they get a way to play Daemons as Daemons
You'll probably only need to buy just 4 books if they let you do!
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You’ll still be able to play undivided daemons it’ll just become a CSM thing that implements Belakor and locks you out of the named greater daemons most likely
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Also daemons literally got 5 index detachments which is functionally a completely free codex for 10th edition and daemons has always been 4 quarters of 4 different armies with no real coherency to them
Undivided daemons don't make any sense without there being mortals involved to begin with. Hell, it barely makes sense for daemons to be running around even as their monogod faction without mortals. They really should have been a daemons only army.
Not having deamons be allies could massively increase the pool of units the specific flavoured legions have access to. But lone deamons was a fun army.
someone on reddit claimed they spoke to a higher up. Daemons will get a codex but the data sheets will be different from the ones in the god specific ones. That way it's easier to balance allies when taking daemons. Take that with a grain a salt but man. Having mono god daemon lists is so damn boring....gw making me hate 10th edition more if they scrap undivided daemons
bro i hope you are right, would be devestated if demons went away, aside from world eaters, its the faction keeping me in 40k, otherwise its all aos for me
Be'lakor could just be added to the CSM codex, and then the CSM allies rules could be updated to allow you to ally in different daemons into the army, especially in a detachment like Pactbound Zealots
rip my army, cant stand the people who are celebrating this, hopefully there will be enough backlash where we come back as an united army if we wind up like deathwatch previously
Bro, as a WE and DG player, I only benefit from this and F GW if this happens. This isn’t a hobby that’s cheap in money or time. Legit can’t imagine caring so little about your customers to take their money for years and rug pull them like this. Hoping this doesn’t happen.
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Sorry we can look past your hurt feelings and appreciate this for the objectively correct design choice it is I guess I say this as someone who plays daemons as a primary army: I’d rather it exist in any other form, it’s always been awkward and lacked synergy and I’m eternally grateful that EC, WE and my ksons will get some actual list variety and model support instead of us pretending 5 barely half-factions is better than cutting one out to get 4 fleshed out ones and still getting to run the undivided daemons in csm anyways
The thing that gets me is slow rolling it like this. If they'd told you at the beginning of tenth this was the plan, and this CLEARLY was the plan, then you'd have time to adjust and maybe make plans. It probably wouldn't even cost them sales on any longterm sheet, and be much more honest and they'd have time to hype it. Instead it's eight months of rumors and even now I don't feel like they very officially said it. It's such a shitty rude way to do it, it's very old style GW.
@ yea the slow burn and uncertainty is terrible and if they end up axing demons, it will still be a rug pull because we didn’t have any communication on what was going to happen. I keep seeing more and more people who want to get into demons but won’t because of this whole drama
Lol. I don’t even play daemons. I never really liked the idea of full daemon armies fluff-wise. If you can manifest fully, then why bother with mortals? Still absolutely sucks for anyone that cared enough to invest in the dream that GW sold them. Imagine if your only army is Daemons? You suddenly don’t even have a valid way to play the game you’ve loved enough to pay for and invest time in. It’s a pretty inconsiderate hit to your own customers. Have a good day.
I really hope this sees an expansion of units that are hybrids between daemons and mortals, like jackals riding khorne hounds, more thousand sons on disks, emporer's children on chariots and deathguard atop bestial daemons. Also, having kugath, mortarion and another great unclean one in a list is going to be a LOT of durability on the list
@ihaspancake2331 theyll come up with a new named great unclean one to replace him. When they do, i imagine fielding him and morty together will make for an extremely hard to kill list
@@ihaspancake2331 Wait, really? That would explain a lot, but how the heck did GW lose a lawsuit about the use of a character they created? And does this apply to N'Kari, too?
Just anecdotally, I and the two other main-Daemons players I know are all very unhappy with this change. I think I have a very unhealthily large 40k collection but as it stands I can only field just under 1500 points of each of the gods other than Khorne, so this effectively pushes me down to one army for local tourneys and lgs unless I want to give gw another few hundred quid for removing my codex. Seems like a very strange and unnecessary decision for an army which is much more popular than deathwatch, which they walked back the decision to debook, not to mention agents, which got one out of nowhere!
As long as Mixed-Demon factions wont be Knee-Capped i would be fine with Demons going into traitor legion books. Like if World Eaters get Khorne Demons (and the Khorne detachment from grotmas), then Black Legion should get the Mixed Demon stuff, so players that collected a mixed army wouldnt be fully crippled.
I like the idea of having Each God getting its own codex with daemons and marines. Mix and match wild detachments. If combining the rosters of World eaters with Khorne, nurgle with death guard.. could get some pretty awesome combos (hoping Jugger-lord can be attached to squad of juggernaut riders Also pretty sure codex Knights will have both houses and renegades
it shouldn't be this hard to be a fan of a company. I just finished my demon army this edition
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You’ve literally had 5 years to look at AoS and see exactly how daemons are getting handled bro come one. Walking out in front of a bus acting like it hit you on purpose
What they could do is something similar to Yvraine and the Ynarri. Say Belakor is in every Chaos Marine codex. If you have him in your army and as the warlord, up can ally different chaos daemons.
I think Be'lakor would slot in to Chaos Knights as their Supreme Commander. He can be taken by the other legions still as a Chaos Knights ally and you can then have him feed directly in to the Battleshock mechanics we're inevitably going to get in the Chaos Knight codex. He did also steal a knight world in the lore.
In all honesty, you can probably have a codex for chaos demons undivided with 4-6 detachments that each focus on specific aspects the 4 chaos gods have in common, plus you could have it be where you have special demons units and characters that come from 2 or more gods (I.e. a flying khorne/tzeentch demon that uses psychic powers to strengthen melee combat)
Khorne / tzeench : a great cataclysm creating a new circumstance where everyone must once again prove themselves and create a new hierarchy. Khorne / nurgle : a decadent regime where the upper class uses the aumône system granting gifts and building just enough to sustain the peoples on which backs they stand. Slaanesh / tzeench : the tortured mind of a tyrant shifting his allies and ennemies incoherently maintaining themselves uptop simply by diverting everyone away from them and preventing everyone from really getting any close to a position of power. Slaanesh / nurgle : a toxic relationship where one takes the mantle of user and the other of used.
It could also focus on the different ranks/categories of daemons. Greater demon monster mash, Lesser demon hordes, Chariot/calvary demons, and maybe a detachment for the heralds (that one's kinda a stretch).
big sadge ( - $1.5k for me, I can't use about $1k and have to buy about $500 worth of stuff to have a full army if they split up daemons). I still hope they make an undivided option with Be'lakor as the mandatory warlord.
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I mean you get your entire codex for this edition for free and you’ve had about 5 years to know this is exactly what they’re going to do with daemons idk why everyone’s acting like this is a surprise rug pull
2:05 I thought that was 4th edition? Because Allesio Cavatore did both chaos books if I’m not mistaken and there was a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth because “muh 3.5 edition codex, muh flavor” That codex was the die’s csm codex I played with and it was pretty much copy and pasted with the daemon engines added in back in 6th.
I only hope there will be a dedicated detachment specific for including daemons so that if you want to play without them like before (like only thousand sons or death guard units) you still are able to
I wouldn't mind the separation into mono-god codexes if they weren't naming them after the specific space marine chapters. It would feel better to just fuse daemons, cultists, and marines into a single very large super codex for each god. It would make for convenient organization even if they charged extra for essentially a double codex. What could work is daemon's getting their own codex under Belakor with a new line of shadow daemons.
I havent played this Game for 2 years. Because the prices and the unending buying of codexes. In old Times WE have a Codex for years Not month. But this News broke me a second time. I Love playing Chaos demons Like the 4 edition. This is a DARK time for Warhammer 40000
Don’t think it be a issue if they don’t drop models out of demon range to put them individually faction but got to have at least 2 detachments in each book to support them
In 5th there was no AoS so the deamon kits came with square bases for fantasy and round for 40k so there was still some divide if you wanred to play by the rules
I think if they don't get a whole Codex, I think it will instead be a Supplement for Chaos Space Marines. Rules for Be'lakor, Soul Griders, battleline Daemons, and the Greater Daemons excluding epic heroes. The Mono-God factions then get the more unique stuff.
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Nah I hope soulgrinders get taken out and put on the renegade codex with dark admech and vashtorr. The biomechanical vibe fits vashtorr better and he should get a range of his own daemons
It does bulk out the various factions, aside from death guard they have less options. It may also increase sales for an older range before they get renewed in a few years. 🤔
If the daemon sheets are in codex thousand sons please let the characters like Lord of change/Kairos, changeling, etc. generate some number of cabal points
they could add belakor in each chaos codex as they did the same in sigmar with nagash and kragnos which are in every death and destruction book respectively
GW said that the Grottmas stuff was legal for the whole of 10th. So Im assuming that means you can play a full daemon army in 10th. But that sounds like that may not be the case for 11th. Only GW knows.
@@andrewpearce6624 And what's stopping you from playing the grotsmas detachments throughout the entire edition even if the demons are divided? Simply by rewriting the shadow of chaos in the codex for detachments of pure demons, the entire problem is solved and GW will not have lied to anyone. These detachments will become part of those codex (hence the images in the margins that correspond to the grotmas detachments of EC, WE, TS and DG)
i wonder if there will be some wording in each deity specific book to support daemon armies somehow, seeing as the daemon allies rules are in the daemon rules currently.
Nothing is stopping them from having them rolled in and still getting their own set of rules for just daemons
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That’s what happened. Daemons got their whole codex released for free. 5 index detachments is all they bother putting on a codex for this edition anyways. Daemon players got an entire free codex and still complain
Yeah with detachments working how they do it's quite easy to do a couple of chaos marine-only detachments, a couple of mixed ones and some daemon-only ones - given the limited range for most of the god-specific traitor legions Personally I'd rather pay for, say, Codex Khorne than 2 smaller World Eaters and Daemons ones.
I like the narrative of faction tourists or outright strawmans coming here and saying how 4 detach and index for 4 factions tapered together equates some kind of a codex release. Go fuck yourself.
As a (mono god) daemon player, that is also into AoS , I think the merging is fine as long as there will always be at least one-two pure daemon detachments. For a mixed daemon army they should at least create a Belekor index (that does not NEED Belekor to be included). Daemons are too important for (both) settings to ever get rid of them and while I love the combined daemon army I think it will only "hurt" the competetive tournament players to have them merge with their respective legion.
I mean, the indication is that the codex will be called "emperor's children" rather than "slaanesh", so I wouldn't hold out hope for daemons to be much more than marine DLC in this year's codex drops
I’d be annoyed to see mixed daemons disappearing as their own tournament-playable faction. But I’m interested in the synergies that might appear when you mix daemons into the legion codexes properly, instead of just as deepstriking allies that do secondaries.
Again: I'm upset that getting a codex are more of a hassle now with rule changes happening after they print. I wish they sold some pdfs that are updated and available for previous editions of the game. So much work goes into those books with the artwork and textblocks!😢
Before watching the Video.... when they put the god specific daemons in the legion codieces, what would happen to the non-specific ones? Where does belakor go for example or the soulgrinder? I just dont think they will scrap them comoletely. 🤷🏻
Welp, i just bought 2 dAemons combat patrols to make a khorne army. I just hope that if they put the demons in the csm chaos god flavor that they have a detachement focused only on the demons.
I'm a Deathwatch dude, and I know what it's like to get screwed by GW. Daemons aren't being screwed if those Grotmass detachments stick around, which seems likely. Beyond that if they retain the index that there's then they are still playable. What should happen is that the "Devoted" legions should not have to pay an ally cost and should be able to just run their daemons, then if you run generic CSM then you have the ally rule as you're able to pull in units like Bezerkers and Rubrics into your force which obviously doesn't apply to their respected Devoted legions. Overall this is a better change for the game, however only if GW give them new datasheets. If they don't then a) the indexes and so on might be free, but you won't be able to access the stuff on the app without buying a lot of books, which would suck; or b) they missed a trick for more integration with the legion specific books.
As a daemon player, it's probably best for them to be folded into the chaos marine books if GW isn't going to support them very well on their own. Just make all daemons playable in chaos marines, and then just the god specific ones in each of the four god specific legions. Shouldn't be too hard.
According to the books at least, this is by FAR the most accurate way to go about this "faction" anyway. It's always bugged me that we had a faction of all 4 gods plus Be'lakor working together all the time as if the books don't reinforce the fact that all 4 gods are actively trying to kill each other all the time. I think on a few rare occasions the big 4 worked together (like the heresy to stop the emperor, or the black crusades) but it certainly was the exception, not the rule.
@@johnhildenbrand2642 You are absolutely correct. In an ideal world everything chaos would be in one big book. But otherwise it should be a generic chaos "space marine" book with support from daemons/marked legions. And a book for each marked legion with their flavored daemons. It's just the most sensible practically and lore wise.
@@johnhildenbrand2642 so I guess you're also against primarchs being fielded? Or custodes marching to war? Or assassins in every army? We get to field unusual stuff in 40k because it's fun. I don't see why the imperium should be allowed fun, when undivided incursions - which happen a hell of a lot more than the above - get squatted because "it's unlikely"
@@RtTal Beside assassins, primarchs and custodes went to war on several occasions described in several books. The key difference is that daemons hate each others as much as they hate the imperium. Making them fight together is like playing an army of combined forces of T'au and Astra Militarum. It happened, but it's highly rare and happened under really specific conditions. I agree your 2k list won't represent what your average faction will send to war. But making an exception as a rule is the best way to twist and don't give a shit about the lore. You want to play anything ? You can, it's a hobby you do what you want. You want to play something coherent for you and your opponent ? Maybe don't build an AdMech army where every skitari is an Ork. Or an army where custodes and world eaters are allied. Or a Votann-Tyranid alliance. Or 4 deities daemon fighting together when it's not about their survival because the emperor is going to seal the warp.
I bought into 3 armies (Daemons, CSM, CK) and a 3D printer to make the 4th (Traitor Guard) so that I could play Disciples of Be'lakor. It's by far my favorite faction. The way GW has been pretending it doesn't exist has me VERY worried.
GW dont know what to do with Deamons and never have. Best attempt they made was that edition with that weird chart you rolled on to see what random effects happened in the game. It was weird but felt like you were playing a warped reality chaotic feeling.
Removing daemons will make me feel like I have been stolen from. If you invalidate my 1000$ collection how is that morally different than me 3D printing a 1000$ army? I started Daemons at the start of 10th this feels like I bought a rug pull scam coin.
Daemons index stays till the end of the edition. But they are going into the diety books. The big question is what allies csm gets and wheres belakor going. My hot take is in 11th belakor will be csm which lets vashtorr leave for dark mech
I wonder what codex be'lakor will be transferred to or if he will be split between all of chaos space marines which is my guess after all vashtorr fits with iron hands so i could see be'lakor working with black legion as there personal greater daemon/daemon prince who will replace horus since abbadon is more like a chapter master like dante than he is primarch tear
If Bel'lakor was gonna choose a legion to patron it'd prob be the night lords... they share his love of darkness and terror tactics and they dont have any kind of chaos patron, warmaster, or primarch that Bel'lakor would have to share with (he is far to selfish to willingly ally with someone like abaddon)
I have been a mono-Tzeentch Daemons main for as long as I've been playing 40K, and I feel this change could be either absolutely great or absolutely terrible depending on how they do it, at least when it comes to Tzeentch Daemons (and Daemons of the other gods as well, TBF). The main thing I don't want is to be forced to run marines and/or cultists with my Daemons. I like the idea of being able to run just Daemons with no mortals/stinky humans, and would HATE if I suddenly have to sell off a bunch of my beautiful Daemon models I invested in to go and buy a bunch or Rubrics and other T-Son Marine or cultist models to use with them. So the "absolutely terrible" scenario I eluded to above would be this: the loss of the ability to play a pure daemons army and GW forcing me to now run Marines and other humans with my Daemons. That being said, lore-wise I was never a fan of undivided pure Daemon armies. The Daemons rarely work together like that lore-wise, and I have always preferred mono-god pure Daemons as a result. So for me personally losing undivided Daemons would not be all that bad as long as you could still run mono-god pure Daemon lists with no marines/mortals and only Daemons. In particular as a Tzeentch Daemons player, one thing I have lamented is the faction's lack of feeling sufficiently "psychic/magickal" with 10th ed's elimination of the Psychic phase, and Tzeentch Daemons being folded into T-Sons could actually go a long way to fixing that issue so long as there is a detachment that lets you play just Daemons without any marines, cultists, or other stinky humans mixed in. Thing is, the T-Sons base army rule, Cabalistic Rituals, is pretty much the only thing left in the game that remotely resembles the Psyker powers of old. Its not a straight one for one, but it feels close enough that a pure Daemons/only Daemons with no mortals detachment for T-Sons which presumably would work off the T-Sons base army rule now would feel a lot like how Tzeentch Daemons used to feel, I.E. every unit in your army being able to "cast spells"....even your chaff horrors. I really miss the days when even my lowly pink horrors where able to work together to cast Smites and my big birds where actual wizards flinging actual spells instead of glorified gunslingers whose "psychic" abilities are just guns with a funny keyword attached....and a pure daemons/no-mortals T-Sons detachment of all Daemons that could still access the base T-Sons army rule ritual magick would be about as close as you could come to that feel in 10th. So this would be the "absolutely great" scenario I mentioned above, at least for Tzeentch Daemons. Though If your an undivided player this would still suck for you, so I feel for all those who are into undivided Daemons even if it isn't my jam. So it really depends on how they handle things detachment wise, and if they still allow you to run an army of all Daemons with no mortals, or if they decide to now force you to run a bunch of stinky lame humans with your Daemons.
This feels like a way of padding out codexs without having to design more models. Tsons, WE & EC all seem very short on unit variety. As a daemon collector with an existing csm army this feels pretty crappy, i dont want to collect 4 more marine armies just to use my daemons
I feel like the sensible thing would be to include the relevant, "ally-able Daemons" in each CSM Codex, and then also have all the Daemons in there own Codex together, so you could balance both the Daemons as allies and Daemons as their own army. And sure, that could result in two different versions of the same unit, but they're already doing that with Imperial Agents, and we don't have any crisis about Battle Sister Squads or Grey Knight Terminators.
Agreed. If a unit can be taken in two different armies, just have two datasheets. Losing army rules sucks.
They will do just that with the aeldari codex. They said that the book will include all the drukhari units that ynnari can take. So it looks like we will have 2 different datasheets and point cost for those units.
Honestly I like daemons in their cult factions and as apart of csm sure they're different sheets but that's not a player problem you go play against lord of change in csm and it might buff psychic attacks by +1 str and have lethal sustained etc from csm then you see it in tsons and it has +1 wound from the detachment and a different point value gw has already shown they can do this with stuff like the forgefiend in every chaos book minus daemons and death guard and so far it's worked pretty well
The existence of the Grotmas detachments says to me that the Chaos Daemons index will stick around, at least until edition's end. After that, and it's up to GW. (Though if enough people complain...)
Unless they roll the grotmas detachments into the 4 godbooks as a way for them to run demons only. I think this possible but would probably bet against it, though even if they did I do think a Daemon index would stick around for people who want to run mixed Daemons.
@@JohnathanCronnelly we'll most likely get the indexes we have here and that's it it would be strange to just scrap the indexes and lock the individual god armies behind books at that point
@@JohnathanCronnellythe nurgle detachment rule and half of its enhancements are based around the daemons army rule, and in a way it couldn't just be replaced by DG's contagions.
@@jcmsaucey6555So they'd get a new daemons detachment in the Death Guard Codex that doesn't care about the old Daemons Army Rule when they send the Daemons index to Legends
Well the new Detachments could still go into the traitor legion books
The crazier thing would be if they end up releasing a Salamanders book after axing Harlequins and Daemons.
I just don’t understand why sallies? Surely you give white scars a book there’s way more potential for cool models and they’re an actual mirror to EC and one of the only psyker heavy loyalist armies
Space marine players always looting attention from other factions 😭
I love salamanders but I dont know if they really have enough stuff to warrant their own codex over other sm factions
most likely a second big release for 'generic marines' halfway in the edition, it happened with the excellent Shadowspear box in 8th, and the disappointing Strike Force Agastus in 9th. I heard rumors about some welcome new units, (no spoiler) and also for a Salamander character but nothing about a dedicated book
@@elRandomTk if that’s the case hopefully iron hands and imperial fists get a new character
they might just stay as an index like deathwatch. Adding daemons to chaos god legions "expands" their model line which tsons, EC, WE would really need
could also throw them generically into csm as well for legions like word bearers too and have those unified chaos daemons as a part of csm so the flavor can exist
I'd rather my daemons go to CSM than my deity legions. Daemons don't fill any roles needed, and just feels like an excuse to not give us actual God aligned models
@@TheDiddler267that’s a pretty good point. This is pretty evident with WE, given that khorne has basic dudes and cavalry on juggernauts, which we have one and have characters for the other
It seems really lazy, using the daemons to supplement holes in the mortal range for these armies. But it DOES function, I suppose.
@@TheDiddler267 Could be a sign that they aren't planning to update/extend model lines for deity legions :(
I put a ton of work into a Deciples of Be'lakor army. Already lost my Minotaur Army
Can GW let me have an army?
Yep, Disciples of Be'lakor is what I'm worried about... All of my Knights are painted in House Korvax colors to be support to my Disciples army. I hope we get a detachment at least...
Yes same that’s what my entire 40K collection is built around!
Rob (honest Wargamer) covered this in a bit of detail during a Juggz episode and they still have 'contacts/friends' still in GW...
GW have an apparent bizarre internal culture where the game systems are competing against each other for their sales totals and budgets. Apparently the guy now running Old World (might be all specialist games) has been having issue with any kind of AOS/Old world cross over because you can't track correctly how well the system is selling vs their rivals (so mad to me that they think like this internally as a company, I get for rival companies, but your own internal games... just odd) so for example had a recent note go through the company saying 'Absolutely no AoS Skaven from the recent release may appear in Old World books, army shots etc' Rob also mentioned that Daemons had come under fire by this person because not are they on AOS, but 40K too, Rob wasn't sure where it was going to go, but had heard rumours of changes, removals of Daemons army books from other settings so sales are cemented for one of the games, also why Beastmen seemed to up and vanish from AoS recently as Beasts of Chaos are a thing in Old World.
I struggle to understand the whole idea, hell if you consider even just five years ago it felt like GW was leaning into 'this thing is for AoS but you could also really use it for 40K wink wink' the whole situation is just odd.
ToW coming back as a zombie to consume the successful game systems is grim. Should have just let it stay dead.
It bonkers isn't it. I don't see how putting Daemons in god books clarifies sales unless they are reboxed into the marine god factions and/or they go from AOS.
@ I have a feeling they will be all faction boxed. So in AOS if Khorne Daemons get rolled into Blades of Khorne, they'll be marked as such, while under World Eaters for 40K... I might be wrong on that, but I agree with your point. If you don't mark them separately, it seems a mute point in the first place for sales data.
I think it suck. We a losing a whole uiqec army and having them wrap up into four C-space marine echo armies. And with the hint we are get another SM army like the Dammed Legion as a book, it’s becoming ridiculous how many marine armies their are.
There is absolutely no excuse to not support all the factions they make when they make record profits every fucking year. They can take those profits and scale their business to meet demand instead of giving it to a damn CEO.
It's fascinating how all those problems could be avoided if GW would finally ditch codizes as the primary avenue of rule distribution.
I'd love to soup in Tzeentch daemons with my Thousand Sons so long as the rules don't kneecap them, but I can see mixed daemon plays being pissed with the change.
I could see the chaos space marines getting a detachment that's just pure daemon soup.
As a fellow Tsons player it feels more like an excuse to not finish the chaos armies and say "You get 2 armies in 1, stop complaining" and that would suck.
Good. Greater Daemon spam can finally be put to rest.
@@inkcupcake2954 I mean. Souping all the various aspects of Tzeentch is kindof the reason i got into thousand sons.
Very likely will not be the only way to play them
@@inkcupcake2954This is literally just complaint for the sake of complaint I don’t know a single person who plays a god legion and doesn’t want full access to the daemons
I’m sorry: you *like* having one singular list we can run without ignoring our army rule and throwing??
I'm old enough (don't ask) that I still remember Daemonic Animosity, or whatever it was called, so the idea of having Khorne and Slaanesh Daemons in the same army for example always annoyed me. I still feel that splitting the Daemons out like this is overly messy, breaking existing armies for no reason and making Daemonic allies very awkward for armies like Word Bearers or Black Legion who have very solid reasons to take Daemons from multiple powers. There's also the fact that it leaves less room in the Codexes for interesting new Cult units, like Berserker Terminators or Butcher Surgeons for World Eaters or those rumoured automata for Thousand Sons. That said, it possibly does open up some very interesting armies for the Cult Legions. I know at least one WE player who's quite excited by the possibility of running Angron with an army of Khorne Daemons, and all my own Daemons have always functioned as allies to mono-Power CSM and Cult armies anyway.
I do think it'd be a seriously backward step to remove Daemons as a faction altogether. I also think GW's determination to try to stop armies being playable in more than one system (40k/ Heresy/ AoS/ Old World) is an extremely poor idea. I only really have time to play and build for 40k, but I was at least able to make up an AoS Hedonites army with my Daemons if someone really wanted a game. The lesser-played Warhammer games need as few barriers to entry as possible for people lured in by 40k, but GW seem intent on erecting more.
2nd edition beefy chaos codex with thise animosity rules? Or do you go even further back than i?
@captaincosmo6157 Think I'm thinking of the early Realm of Chaos books which had rules for both 40k and Fantasy in them, but I go back to Rogue Trader and original WFB so things get a bit blurry!
It's never really made much sense to have pantheon daemons as the main army, they rarely work together.
If they get rid of the demon codex that would eliminate you being able to take demons along with regular CSM. That would be crazy. Word bearers without demons? Whats the point! I think theyre just adding the demons to the god aligned codexes to flesh out the factions a bit more and allow better rules synergy, not deleting the demon codex entirely.
Kinda sad. Was hoping daemons would get a range refresh with grey knights for 11th. This makes it unlikely...
It seems like the AoS team is responsible for designing new daemons.
All my grey knights are 3d printed. So it feels like I have a range refresh :P
the Age of Sigmar team is reaponsible for new demons. That being said, Battletome: Blades of Khorne will be coming out later this year
@eviljoshy3402 good for you? Do you feel the need to bring up how big and cool your 3d printed models are every time someone talks about a range refresh?
@@LordCrate-du8zm 3d printers are the Vegans of Warhammer. you'll know they exist because they will tell you without fail
Seriously if demons are getting a worse than agents treatment I hope there will be a larger fallout than there was with deathwatch. Who got un squatted
just starting collecting daemons 2 weeks ago, talk about a gut punch. really hope it continues there's so many cool things to be done with undivided daemons.
People have been talking about this for months, why would you start collecting them now
@clique7386 new player. I am starting as well. I was going to build the old daemons set up of belakor, keeper of secrets, the unclean one, and tzeetch one forgot name.. i was about to buy when I notice a new update happen a week prior. I start researching as I was more inclined to a slaanesh army. I just started getting some of the models. I be piss if I had gone more diverse. For right now, I'm more focused on slaanesh, so I should be a bit more future proof.
i just finish to paint my 2k, it was my first army. Full mixed ofc. I m speechless
My guy
It’s 03:40am in the U.K.
You're not wrong
u are awake watching youtube? auspex is awake making money xD
@@mrlakkie1612Stop talking, dependant. Children should be seen and not heard
Didn't GW say that the Grotmas detachments would be future-proof? I took that as implying even if they didn't get a Codex they'd still be playable in Index.
You’re right, unfortunately doomers can’t read.
@@LordCrate-du8zm becuase having one of the oldest armies being forced to be index only should make us daemons players ever so happy, right?
And GW has never reduced support for a faction and then dropped them next edition before
@@RtTal That's actual bullshit.
1. Demons have only 5 possible detachment options: undivided, and one for each god. You got your codex for fucking free and you still think you have the right to complain.
2. They tapered off support for Harlequins and before cutting them. They have a measly 5 units and that's because GW was slowly cutting them off.
@@LordCrate-du8zm
1) So if your army didn't get a codex, and was having its units pulled into other factions, you can honestly say you wouldn't be pissed about losing support for GW? The Grotmas detachments were great, I'd love if that's how GW handled every faction. But they don't, so not getting a faction codex feels like a slap in the face, saying "you're not important enough to support.
2) what says that they won't treat daemons like harlequins? We have a ton of resin and only ever get model support from fantasy. It's not a fucking stretch to look at this and worry that come tenth, we're toast, especially since - despite years of rumours - GW doesn't want to say anything about undivided daemons.
I'm sorry, but if this was your favourite army I don't believe for a second you'd be comfortable with the situation for your collection.
@@RtTal If they didn't want undivided demons they wouldn't have given Belakor a Space Marine on his base. Your faction has at least one option of running solo, and in the future monogod detachments in codexes are definitely something that I can see happening.
I am new to wh40k, i spent over 1,000 dollars on chaos daemons and painted them all. I never played a game yet and i guess i never will. Sad times. So long warhammer models
It’s definitely feelsbad. The Grotmas Detachments soften the blow, but still bad, especially for people running Undivided armies (aka the most popular way to play them). People probably don’t want to either buy up four other armies and/or go through the hassle of selling off some of their daemons.
Although I do idly wonder if the decision was to simplify future daemon releases: due to the nature of the army really being four subfactions, unless if they did a huge range release, if they were doing the thing of having a single character release from one subfaction, the fans of the other gods would start to cry foul of GW skipping them (see: the 9e CP being just Khorne and nothing else). Would make things simpler if they were attached to the regular monogod Legions.
yea i agree 100%, i play world eaters as my second army so i have that but i have no interest or care for the other 3, painted them up nicely so they will just be how they are on shelving worst case
I just want clarity.
What am I meant to do for the rest of this edition? Continue stretching out my daemons, hoping we won't get killed in 11th? Expanding into an army of marines I don't like? Giving up?
Regarding future daemon releases, daemons are AoS models not 40k so they always get their releases from AoS's release schedule.
So if they hadnt done this daemons where prob the exception of the "every codex comes with a model release" (and they prob only officially said that cause daemons wherent getting a codex) and we'd have to wait for the relivent AoS releases to get new models (assuming those models aren't all mortals like last edition, and that they actually decide to port over any new daemon models).
So yeah there's a chance that one of the reasons for this is that the 40k team arent allowed to support stand alone daemon releases like they do with everyone else.
Bad time to start a Chaos Daemons army...I just wanted to field 4-7 greater deamons and have a monster mash.
Guess we'll have to see how I can use these models.
I really hope I don’t have to take chaos space marines with my Deamons.
It will prob be more of a demon detachment in the dex so you can run a pure demon army.
@@Try_Again_Bragg And perhaps the daemons index sticking around so that could be an option too.
@HadrosaurHero Doubt that will happen. If they go into the dex they won't keep their index
Then don't. You likely already have all the Daemon models you need for a full army. GW are unlikely to build the whole Codices around needing to have mortals. That would be kind of weird. (It would also explain why Emperor's Children apparently have an army rule that's conditional army-wide Advance & Charge, rather than anything more specific to the Legion. It's there to make the army playable for the Slaanesh daemons as well.)
@bluecho4 I hope your right that I won’t have to, I’m just starting to get in to tournaments (I’m new to 40K)
This would make me so sad :(
Imagine having 15k points worth of daemons just to be forced to buy 4-5 books in 11 th by latest...
Welp, there go my plans for making a daemons army.
GeeDub saving you money man
I think the biggest tell is that GW hasn't said anything. If Daemons are staying as an army, they're incentivized to tell people so that they can keep buying models.
I want to play demon with my chaos marines but i dont want demon dissapearing for other player
I feel very conflicted about this, on one hand I like that the Cult Legions are getting more access to Daemons, it injects a bit of fluff back into the game and bulks up the rosters, but I also can't help but be disappointed a bit that Daemons are gone. I really hope they get a way to play Daemons as Daemons
You'll probably only need to buy just 4 books if they let you do!
You’ll still be able to play undivided daemons it’ll just become a CSM thing that implements Belakor and locks you out of the named greater daemons most likely
Also daemons literally got 5 index detachments which is functionally a completely free codex for 10th edition and daemons has always been 4 quarters of 4 different armies with no real coherency to them
Undivided daemons don't make any sense without there being mortals involved to begin with. Hell, it barely makes sense for daemons to be running around even as their monogod faction without mortals. They really should have been a daemons only army.
@@williampounds5191Daemon incursions, even undivided ones, happen a hell of a lot more than custodes or primarchs taking the field.
Yuup, so goes my faction.
First time?
Vashtorr could roll into chaos knights with dark mechanicum 😊
I think Daemons deserve their own faction but integrating their rosters with the Chaos Legion rosters has been a long overdue blessing
Not having deamons be allies could massively increase the pool of units the specific flavoured legions have access to. But lone deamons was a fun army.
someone on reddit claimed they spoke to a higher up. Daemons will get a codex but the data sheets will be different from the ones in the god specific ones. That way it's easier to balance allies when taking daemons. Take that with a grain a salt but man. Having mono god daemon lists is so damn boring....gw making me hate 10th edition more if they scrap undivided daemons
I feel the same. I started with Khorne at the end of 8th when I started playing. But I was really happy when I was able to mix and match.
I've been wondering if they would do this, make daemons into the chaos version of imperial agents.
bro i hope you are right, would be devestated if demons went away, aside from world eaters, its the faction keeping me in 40k, otherwise its all aos for me
I like that idea, but I'm not too hopeful
RUINSTORM DEMONS MAKING A COMEBACK?
I would hope the codexes would be named after the gods as opposed to the legion of they were going about it this way.
Be'lakor could just be added to the CSM codex, and then the CSM allies rules could be updated to allow you to ally in different daemons into the army, especially in a detachment like Pactbound Zealots
rip my army, cant stand the people who are celebrating this, hopefully there will be enough backlash where we come back as an united army if we wind up like deathwatch previously
Bro, as a WE and DG player, I only benefit from this and F GW if this happens.
This isn’t a hobby that’s cheap in money or time. Legit can’t imagine caring so little about your customers to take their money for years and rug pull them like this. Hoping this doesn’t happen.
Sorry we can look past your hurt feelings and appreciate this for the objectively correct design choice it is I guess
I say this as someone who plays daemons as a primary army: I’d rather it exist in any other form, it’s always been awkward and lacked synergy and I’m eternally grateful that EC, WE and my ksons will get some actual list variety and model support instead of us pretending 5 barely half-factions is better than cutting one out to get 4 fleshed out ones and still getting to run the undivided daemons in csm anyways
The thing that gets me is slow rolling it like this. If they'd told you at the beginning of tenth this was the plan, and this CLEARLY was the plan, then you'd have time to adjust and maybe make plans. It probably wouldn't even cost them sales on any longterm sheet, and be much more honest and they'd have time to hype it. Instead it's eight months of rumors and even now I don't feel like they very officially said it. It's such a shitty rude way to do it, it's very old style GW.
@ yea the slow burn and uncertainty is terrible and if they end up axing demons, it will still be a rug pull because we didn’t have any communication on what was going to happen. I keep seeing more and more people who want to get into demons but won’t because of this whole drama
Lol. I don’t even play daemons.
I never really liked the idea of full daemon armies fluff-wise. If you can manifest fully, then why bother with mortals?
Still absolutely sucks for anyone that cared enough to invest in the dream that GW sold them. Imagine if your only army is Daemons? You suddenly don’t even have a valid way to play the game you’ve loved enough to pay for and invest time in.
It’s a pretty inconsiderate hit to your own customers.
Have a good day.
I really hope this sees an expansion of units that are hybrids between daemons and mortals, like jackals riding khorne hounds, more thousand sons on disks, emporer's children on chariots and deathguard atop bestial daemons. Also, having kugath, mortarion and another great unclean one in a list is going to be a LOT of durability on the list
Kugath doesnt have a statblock anymore because of a lawsuit that gw lost so you cant field him
@ihaspancake2331 theyll come up with a new named great unclean one to replace him. When they do, i imagine fielding him and morty together will make for an extremely hard to kill list
@@davidthomas2870 Well we have Rotigus, he is more offensive nurgle counterpart, that also criples everyone around him.
@@ihaspancake2331 Wait, really? That would explain a lot, but how the heck did GW lose a lawsuit about the use of a character they created? And does this apply to N'Kari, too?
@matas3301 exactly! Imagine him marching up behind morty and how annoying thatll be to shift
13:08 poor Belakor. He keeps catching Ls, either in the lore from the Armless swit Abe, or the upstart Vashtor and now this irl.
Just anecdotally, I and the two other main-Daemons players I know are all very unhappy with this change. I think I have a very unhealthily large 40k collection but as it stands I can only field just under 1500 points of each of the gods other than Khorne, so this effectively pushes me down to one army for local tourneys and lgs unless I want to give gw another few hundred quid for removing my codex. Seems like a very strange and unnecessary decision for an army which is much more popular than deathwatch, which they walked back the decision to debook, not to mention agents, which got one out of nowhere!
Agents of the Imperium is a bit of a hodgepodge codex. I could see Demons still sticking around in a similar fashion.
As long as Mixed-Demon factions wont be Knee-Capped i would be fine with Demons going into traitor legion books. Like if World Eaters get Khorne Demons (and the Khorne detachment from grotmas), then Black Legion should get the Mixed Demon stuff, so players that collected a mixed army wouldnt be fully crippled.
I like the idea of having Each God getting its own codex with daemons and marines. Mix and match wild detachments. If combining the rosters of World eaters with Khorne, nurgle with death guard.. could get some pretty awesome combos (hoping Jugger-lord can be attached to squad of juggernaut riders
Also pretty sure codex Knights will have both houses and renegades
No sleep till BROOKLYN! lol!
it shouldn't be this hard to be a fan of a company. I just finished my demon army this edition
You’ve literally had 5 years to look at AoS and see exactly how daemons are getting handled bro come one. Walking out in front of a bus acting like it hit you on purpose
Thats assuming iv ever looked at AoS
That's assuming 40k will follow AoS' lead
40k got rid of the Psychic phase, surely AoS will remove spells and prayers in its next edition
So is the double turn coming to 40k? secondaries going and battle tactics coming? See how dumb your argument sounds
@ I literally guarantee 11th will have AoS turn structure, yes. The rule set is objectively just a better version of 40K rules
What they could do is something similar to Yvraine and the Ynarri.
Say Belakor is in every Chaos Marine codex. If you have him in your army and as the warlord, up can ally different chaos daemons.
In the 7th there was a Daemon Codex and the Chaos Marines got also Daemons in their books. So maybe, hopefully they will make something like that?
I think Be'lakor would slot in to Chaos Knights as their Supreme Commander. He can be taken by the other legions still as a Chaos Knights ally and you can then have him feed directly in to the Battleshock mechanics we're inevitably going to get in the Chaos Knight codex. He did also steal a knight world in the lore.
In all honesty, you can probably have a codex for chaos demons undivided with 4-6 detachments that each focus on specific aspects the 4 chaos gods have in common, plus you could have it be where you have special demons units and characters that come from 2 or more gods (I.e. a flying khorne/tzeentch demon that uses psychic powers to strengthen melee combat)
Khorne / tzeench : a great cataclysm creating a new circumstance where everyone must once again prove themselves and create a new hierarchy.
Khorne / nurgle : a decadent regime where the upper class uses the aumône system granting gifts and building just enough to sustain the peoples on which backs they stand.
Slaanesh / tzeench : the tortured mind of a tyrant shifting his allies and ennemies incoherently maintaining themselves uptop simply by diverting everyone away from them and preventing everyone from really getting any close to a position of power.
Slaanesh / nurgle : a toxic relationship where one takes the mantle of user and the other of used.
It could also focus on the different ranks/categories of daemons. Greater demon monster mash, Lesser demon hordes, Chariot/calvary demons, and maybe a detachment for the heralds (that one's kinda a stretch).
Could the salamander reveal be the cover art for the new upcoming crusade book for this year?
That is a really good shout
If I'm forced to roll my daemons into csm, i'd rather just sell them. I'm so tired of power armor
Hyped for them to be on the faction codexes!
Sounds interesting and I am looking forward to getting my world eaters codex
big sadge ( - $1.5k for me, I can't use about $1k and have to buy about $500 worth of stuff to have a full army if they split up daemons). I still hope they make an undivided option with Be'lakor as the mandatory warlord.
I mean you get your entire codex for this edition for free and you’ve had about 5 years to know this is exactly what they’re going to do with daemons idk why everyone’s acting like this is a surprise rug pull
2:05 I thought that was 4th edition? Because Allesio Cavatore did both chaos books if I’m not mistaken and there was a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth because “muh 3.5 edition codex, muh flavor”
That codex was the die’s csm codex I played with and it was pretty much copy and pasted with the daemon engines added in back in 6th.
Why is everyone so confused about the non aligned demons.. belakor, will be in each of the 4 codex's..
I only hope there will be a dedicated detachment specific for including daemons so that if you want to play without them like before (like only thousand sons or death guard units) you still are able to
I wouldn't mind the separation into mono-god codexes if they weren't naming them after the specific space marine chapters. It would feel better to just fuse daemons, cultists, and marines into a single very large super codex for each god. It would make for convenient organization even if they charged extra for essentially a double codex. What could work is daemon's getting their own codex under Belakor with a new line of shadow daemons.
My friends hate it, now they gotta deal with 2 keepers of secrets, Fulgrim and Shelaxi Helbane list now
I havent played this Game for 2 years. Because the prices and the unending buying of codexes. In old Times WE have a Codex for years Not month. But this News broke me a second time. I Love playing Chaos demons Like the 4 edition. This is a DARK time for Warhammer 40000
Don’t think it be a issue if they don’t drop models out of demon range to put them individually faction but got to have at least 2 detachments in each book to support them
In 5th there was no AoS so the deamon kits came with square bases for fantasy and round for 40k so there was still some divide if you wanred to play by the rules
I think if they don't get a whole Codex, I think it will instead be a Supplement for Chaos Space Marines. Rules for Be'lakor, Soul Griders, battleline Daemons, and the Greater Daemons excluding epic heroes. The Mono-God factions then get the more unique stuff.
Nah I hope soulgrinders get taken out and put on the renegade codex with dark admech and vashtorr. The biomechanical vibe fits vashtorr better and he should get a range of his own daemons
It does bulk out the various factions, aside from death guard they have less options. It may also increase sales for an older range before they get renewed in a few years. 🤔
If there's an 11th edition next year, Marines vs Demons (40k only version) might be interesting.
If the daemon sheets are in codex thousand sons please let the characters like Lord of change/Kairos, changeling, etc. generate some number of cabal points
they could add belakor in each chaos codex as they did the same in sigmar with nagash and kragnos which are in every death and destruction book respectively
GW said that the Grottmas stuff was legal for the whole of 10th. So Im assuming that means you can play a full daemon army in 10th. But that sounds like that may not be the case for 11th. Only GW knows.
@@andrewpearce6624 And what's stopping you from playing the grotsmas detachments throughout the entire edition even if the demons are divided? Simply by rewriting the shadow of chaos in the codex for detachments of pure demons, the entire problem is solved and GW will not have lied to anyone.
These detachments will become part of those codex (hence the images in the margins that correspond to the grotmas detachments of EC, WE, TS and DG)
i wonder if there will be some wording in each deity specific book to support daemon armies somehow, seeing as the daemon allies rules are in the daemon rules currently.
Nothing is stopping them from having them rolled in and still getting their own set of rules for just daemons
That’s what happened. Daemons got their whole codex released for free.
5 index detachments is all they bother putting on a codex for this edition anyways. Daemon players got an entire free codex and still complain
Yeah with detachments working how they do it's quite easy to do a couple of chaos marine-only detachments, a couple of mixed ones and some daemon-only ones - given the limited range for most of the god-specific traitor legions Personally I'd rather pay for, say, Codex Khorne than 2 smaller World Eaters and Daemons ones.
I like the narrative of faction tourists or outright strawmans coming here and saying how 4 detach and index for 4 factions tapered together equates some kind of a codex release. Go fuck yourself.
As a (mono god) daemon player, that is also into AoS , I think the merging is fine as long as there will always be at least one-two pure daemon detachments. For a mixed daemon army they should at least create a Belekor index (that does not NEED Belekor to be included). Daemons are too important for (both) settings to ever get rid of them and while I love the combined daemon army I think it will only "hurt" the competetive tournament players to have them merge with their respective legion.
I mean, the indication is that the codex will be called "emperor's children" rather than "slaanesh", so I wouldn't hold out hope for daemons to be much more than marine DLC in this year's codex drops
They should just have both options. Chaos Daemons together (undivided) and be able to attach the CSM of particular dieties.
maybe this release will come with a new mission pack focused around the chaos legions. they did say it was the year of chaos.
The champions of slaanesh box seems to be more geared to no legion of excess. Any thoughts?
So each faction gets mixed in with their chaos marine. What about belakor ? Can he just run with each faction or will he get his own army?
That just means 11th edition is too close
certainly feels like it, so many books and releases coming out in a relatively short amount of time
Daemon players have a right to be angry (not that I am one)
I’d be annoyed to see mixed daemons disappearing as their own tournament-playable faction.
But I’m interested in the synergies that might appear when you mix daemons into the legion codexes properly, instead of just as deepstriking allies that do secondaries.
Again: I'm upset that getting a codex are more of a hassle now with rule changes happening after they print. I wish they sold some pdfs that are updated and available for previous editions of the game. So much work goes into those books with the artwork and textblocks!😢
Hope they release a codex in the 10th for the deamon
While i like having pantheon specific factions with their respective demons i really wanted to do a chaos demons army
Before watching the Video.... when they put the god specific daemons in the legion codieces, what would happen to the non-specific ones? Where does belakor go for example or the soulgrinder?
I just dont think they will scrap them comoletely. 🤷🏻
Welp, i just bought 2 dAemons combat patrols to make a khorne army. I just hope that if they put the demons in the csm chaos god flavor that they have a detachement focused only on the demons.
I'm a Deathwatch dude, and I know what it's like to get screwed by GW. Daemons aren't being screwed if those Grotmass detachments stick around, which seems likely. Beyond that if they retain the index that there's then they are still playable. What should happen is that the "Devoted" legions should not have to pay an ally cost and should be able to just run their daemons, then if you run generic CSM then you have the ally rule as you're able to pull in units like Bezerkers and Rubrics into your force which obviously doesn't apply to their respected Devoted legions. Overall this is a better change for the game, however only if GW give them new datasheets. If they don't then a) the indexes and so on might be free, but you won't be able to access the stuff on the app without buying a lot of books, which would suck; or b) they missed a trick for more integration with the legion specific books.
As a daemon player, it's probably best for them to be folded into the chaos marine books if GW isn't going to support them very well on their own.
Just make all daemons playable in chaos marines, and then just the god specific ones in each of the four god specific legions. Shouldn't be too hard.
According to the books at least, this is by FAR the most accurate way to go about this "faction" anyway. It's always bugged me that we had a faction of all 4 gods plus Be'lakor working together all the time as if the books don't reinforce the fact that all 4 gods are actively trying to kill each other all the time. I think on a few rare occasions the big 4 worked together (like the heresy to stop the emperor, or the black crusades) but it certainly was the exception, not the rule.
@@johnhildenbrand2642the fact that this isn’t the most popular opinion will always irk me
@@johnhildenbrand2642 You are absolutely correct. In an ideal world everything chaos would be in one big book. But otherwise it should be a generic chaos "space marine" book with support from daemons/marked legions. And a book for each marked legion with their flavored daemons. It's just the most sensible practically and lore wise.
@@johnhildenbrand2642 so I guess you're also against primarchs being fielded? Or custodes marching to war? Or assassins in every army?
We get to field unusual stuff in 40k because it's fun. I don't see why the imperium should be allowed fun, when undivided incursions - which happen a hell of a lot more than the above - get squatted because "it's unlikely"
@@RtTal
Beside assassins, primarchs and custodes went to war on several occasions described in several books.
The key difference is that daemons hate each others as much as they hate the imperium. Making them fight together is like playing an army of combined forces of T'au and Astra Militarum. It happened, but it's highly rare and happened under really specific conditions.
I agree your 2k list won't represent what your average faction will send to war. But making an exception as a rule is the best way to twist and don't give a shit about the lore.
You want to play anything ? You can, it's a hobby you do what you want. You want to play something coherent for you and your opponent ? Maybe don't build an AdMech army where every skitari is an Ork. Or an army where custodes and world eaters are allied. Or a Votann-Tyranid alliance. Or 4 deities daemon fighting together when it's not about their survival because the emperor is going to seal the warp.
I bought into 3 armies (Daemons, CSM, CK) and a 3D printer to make the 4th (Traitor Guard) so that I could play Disciples of Be'lakor. It's by far my favorite faction. The way GW has been pretending it doesn't exist has me VERY worried.
GW dont know what to do with Deamons and never have.
Best attempt they made was that edition with that weird chart you rolled on to see what random effects happened in the game. It was weird but felt like you were playing a warped reality chaotic feeling.
Be'lakor as far as I know is in the AoS battletome for SoD, and has rules per the app as well. What do you mean in this video?
and he was talking about Be'lakor in 40k.
It was the beginning of the end for daemons when they removed furies.
Removing daemons will make me feel like I have been stolen from. If you invalidate my 1000$ collection how is that morally different than me 3D printing a 1000$ army? I started Daemons at the start of 10th this feels like I bought a rug pull scam coin.
Daemons index stays till the end of the edition. But they are going into the diety books. The big question is what allies csm gets and wheres belakor going. My hot take is in 11th belakor will be csm which lets vashtorr leave for dark mech
The shadow of the warp can be rewritten on each codex for pure demons detachments and fixed!
Maybe a video on how Votann and Druhkari don't get a codex till 11th? Not really but probably closer to the truth than we'd like.
But why would I ever want to run Angron when I already have Skarbrand
When ever in doubt, release another SM codex
They’ll be allied detachments I think in the csm god books
I wonder what codex be'lakor will be transferred to or if he will be split between all of chaos space marines which is my guess after all vashtorr fits with iron hands so i could see be'lakor working with black legion as there personal greater daemon/daemon prince who will replace horus since abbadon is more like a chapter master like dante than he is primarch tear
If Bel'lakor was gonna choose a legion to patron it'd prob be the night lords... they share his love of darkness and terror tactics and they dont have any kind of chaos patron, warmaster, or primarch that Bel'lakor would have to share with (he is far to selfish to willingly ally with someone like abaddon)
@@Swampert919 I think be'lakor will probably be put in chaos space marine codex so he can continue to be chaos undivided
This is just a big SCAM. GW just wants the CSM players spending money on overpriced Daemon models. That's all there is to it.
I have been a mono-Tzeentch Daemons main for as long as I've been playing 40K, and I feel this change could be either absolutely great or absolutely terrible depending on how they do it, at least when it comes to Tzeentch Daemons (and Daemons of the other gods as well, TBF). The main thing I don't want is to be forced to run marines and/or cultists with my Daemons. I like the idea of being able to run just Daemons with no mortals/stinky humans, and would HATE if I suddenly have to sell off a bunch of my beautiful Daemon models I invested in to go and buy a bunch or Rubrics and other T-Son Marine or cultist models to use with them. So the "absolutely terrible" scenario I eluded to above would be this: the loss of the ability to play a pure daemons army and GW forcing me to now run Marines and other humans with my Daemons.
That being said, lore-wise I was never a fan of undivided pure Daemon armies. The Daemons rarely work together like that lore-wise, and I have always preferred mono-god pure Daemons as a result. So for me personally losing undivided Daemons would not be all that bad as long as you could still run mono-god pure Daemon lists with no marines/mortals and only Daemons. In particular as a Tzeentch Daemons player, one thing I have lamented is the faction's lack of feeling sufficiently "psychic/magickal" with 10th ed's elimination of the Psychic phase, and Tzeentch Daemons being folded into T-Sons could actually go a long way to fixing that issue so long as there is a detachment that lets you play just Daemons without any marines, cultists, or other stinky humans mixed in.
Thing is, the T-Sons base army rule, Cabalistic Rituals, is pretty much the only thing left in the game that remotely resembles the Psyker powers of old. Its not a straight one for one, but it feels close enough that a pure Daemons/only Daemons with no mortals detachment for T-Sons which presumably would work off the T-Sons base army rule now would feel a lot like how Tzeentch Daemons used to feel, I.E. every unit in your army being able to "cast spells"....even your chaff horrors. I really miss the days when even my lowly pink horrors where able to work together to cast Smites and my big birds where actual wizards flinging actual spells instead of glorified gunslingers whose "psychic" abilities are just guns with a funny keyword attached....and a pure daemons/no-mortals T-Sons detachment of all Daemons that could still access the base T-Sons army rule ritual magick would be about as close as you could come to that feel in 10th. So this would be the "absolutely great" scenario I mentioned above, at least for Tzeentch Daemons. Though If your an undivided player this would still suck for you, so I feel for all those who are into undivided Daemons even if it isn't my jam.
So it really depends on how they handle things detachment wise, and if they still allow you to run an army of all Daemons with no mortals, or if they decide to now force you to run a bunch of stinky lame humans with your Daemons.
I hope I can run skarbrand and my bloodletters with Angron and his merry band of berserker!
This feels like a way of padding out codexs without having to design more models. Tsons, WE & EC all seem very short on unit variety. As a daemon collector with an existing csm army this feels pretty crappy, i dont want to collect 4 more marine armies just to use my daemons
They will have detachments to use them
I think Be'lakor may wind up in CSM if CD are removed entirely