Sasha: Hey guys, I'm pregnant! So I decided to cover some pregnancy stories from comics also Sasha: *starts the series with a story about a character dying during child birth*
“Sue was my life. Without her what do I have left?” Ummm, your newborn baby? Remember him? Someone has been taking care of him, right? Reed? Someone has been taking care of him all this time, right?!
yeah franklin not being mentioned at all is werid. kind of suprised he didn't die too. if franklin died than there wouldn't be the issue of not seeing him and it would add to the tragedy.
Honestly, Reed being completely broken wihtout Sue works for me. Even the part where he can't even acknowledge that his son survived. While one would like to think that we'd be briefly overcome with giref but realize they have a responsibility to care for and raise their kid, that takes a strenght of character most of us hope we have but desperately hope we never have to find out if we actually do. It's extremely humanizing to see Reed fall short, knowing that at an intellectual level he absolutely knows what he should and needs to do, but emotionally the void he mentions is really a vaccum that sucked every bit of joy and purpose out of him. He grew up in a black and white world of science and intellect and it was all easy and until he met Sue - enough. then he meets her and the world has color and meaning beyond the numbers. She effectively becomes the core of his humanity - the glue binding him to the rest of th world. Rip that away and you get Doom and Reed didn't want that. What might have been a nice epilog would be years later, Johnny and Ben showing Franklin a recording Reed left, explaining that he loved him, but knew he didn't have it in him to not blame Franklin (as well as himself) for Sues death, and it wasn't fair to have to grow up with that baggage. I don't agree with Reed's actions, but I get it.
In my head: She isn't covering that one, is she? Edit: She is.... P.S. This is probably the most somber Namor has been and I like that writers remember he has more emotions than anger. P.P.S. This comic is a very somber read. Definitely not for everyone. But I do like it for its look at the grieving process. Although, I confess I had forgotten that Franklin had survived and should have been a more important factor in this story. Compared to a lot of Elseworlds and What Ifs? that either kill a lot of people or have character X become character Y, this is certainly a cut above the rest.
The interesting thing is Reed's Quest For Vengeance is, as you mentioned, not only Reed avoiding any attempt at internalizing, but not really revenge, but straight-up murder. It's easy to forget because he is a genocidal tyrant has since tried his hand at conquest, but the Annihilus of FF Annual #6 was actually minding his own damn business until three invaders came and tried to snatch what was his own personal property, and if they didn't bargain to give back what was actually his, he would have died. Actually, a read of that issue kind of indicates Sue's death didn't suddenly snap Reed, the whole ordeal put a strain on his mind, and he made what could be considered a great deal of moral compromises. That it ended in failure probably really broke him.
I remember this issue as one of my very first What if...? comics. And this came right on the heals of "What if Aunt Mae had died?" I love the maturity and sobriety of it. I also loved the Sue POV, and was able to mentally project that back onto the mainline canon; it gave the main story more depth, too. What if...? would occasionally have sequel issues. Would have loved to see one for this where we see what an orphaned Franklin Richards would develop into.
I would love there to be a What If? for each of the FF's deaths in a similar style, seeing Sue's response to Johnny's death given how responsible she feels for him would be really interesting. The Miles as other characters What If? felt very 'how do you do fellow kids' or maybe at 21 I'm just old and out of touch.
This was a moving one. And how the "bad guy" realizes how bad it can be for them when the hero goes full vengence. Because the bad guy can't count on morals keeping the hero from going full bore power on them.
I read this one back when it first came out. And I remember the message I took from it is that it underscored how genuinely risky and dangerous Sue's pregnancy was. And it made me appreciate how very close they came to tragedy. This was emphasized several years later during John Byrne's run on the "Fantastic Four." Sue gets pregnant for a second time. This has been some years after her first pregnancy. And Reed Richards (the word's smartest man) knew she probably would get pregnant again and tried to plan for it. Still, she ends up losing the baby, even though she manages to survive.
I want to see a "Two and a Half Men" sequal comic where Jonny and Ben raise Franklin. Eventually Jonny Sheen..Charlie Storm? Would be replaced by Namor when the human torch burns himself out and has to go to rehab. Jokes aside, a gritty sequal where Jonny and/or Ben raises Frankilin who still has his intense powers and the dark knowlage of his parents fate would bebjtneresting. It could go so many different ways with him even being raised by doom instead. There is no Valeria, Susan or Reed to help guide Franklin with their intelligence and familial emotional understanding so how would the little mini-god turn out? How would the fact his parent's deaths were a result of his birth affect his psyche? How would the different parenting techniques affect him? The easy assumption is that Ben and Johnny would not be smart or emotionally open enough to meet the levels of sue, Reed and Valeria, but is this true? One could also just assume Doom would make him a monster or use him to control the world..but would he? Perhaps he wouldn't be told the truth of how his parents died until later and it would break him like the Scarlet Witch and make an alternate universe where they lived..or he didn't exist! Maybe he will rewrite reality to shift the roles and make it HIM who died in the childbirth over Sue. Perhaps we would get a second sequal series where Sue becomes the Joker as a result and Gritty Mr. Plastic Batastic fights crime with a shotgun..he forms with his own hand.
I could see the issue going in two directions- one where he's adopted by Ben and Alicia, and one with Johnny and Crystal. That way we can show how a blind parental figure would impact his life, or how the influence of the Inhumans would affect Crystal's ability to raise children of her own.
I like the two and a half men angle. You start with a repeat of Johnny's soliloquy, but he says it to Franklin, then promises to take care of him. Through mutual loss and care if Franklin. Ben and Johnny grow to be good odd couple godfathers.
@@douglasphillips5870 The Odd Couple would be Johnny and Namor in their old ages. Then you not only get messy/clean but also commoner/noble and fire/water.... A trifecta of oddity!
As a companion to this check out What If? Vol 2 #30. “What if Sue and Reeds second child had lived”. This was before it was reconned that she had and it’s got two dark stories. One is really really fucking dark.
@@ProjektTaku I actually looked it up and realized the second story isn’t as dark. The first one thought is a doozy. It turns out the Sue and Reeds second child is an energy vampire that kills her in birth. Franklin figures out what is going in but no one listens and the “child” ends up killing Alicia Masters, Ben and Johnny. Reed is not only in denial but becomes verbally abusive to Franklin. Eventually Franklin asks Doctor Doom for help and the confront Reed and the monster. The monster kills both Reed and Doom but Franklin traps her in the negative zone. Like I said, dark. There is a panel of Alicia all skeletal and barely alive from the psychic vampirism that still sticks with me.
@@nilus2k damn bro...that's insane. And poor franklin. His sibling kills his mom at birth, then kills his uncle and practical uncle, friend of his parents, then his father is in denial of it and is abusive towards him, then he has to team up with dr doom and then both his father and doom are killed. Hope everything worked out for him in that universe.
Here's my problem with this story: It left out Doom on purpose. Namor would only come into the story after Sue died, Doom would come in BEFORE she died. Right away I was thinking "Sue should consult another Doctor for a second opinion" and who better than the one who has a beef with every God and Devil anyone could think of mentioning? I know this is a plot that happens later in the main series because that writer understood Doom, this writer did not. "Reed without Sue would become Doom." NO, if Reed became like Doom he would have contacted heaven and hell... maybe even created an Afterlife... in order to save Sue or at least reach her. For Doom, the only thing that's really impossible is the phrase "There's something I can't have and I accept that." I would have accepted Reed taking the Ultimate Nullifier [trademark] he got from Galactus and destroying the whole universe... if it does what it says on the label at least... but only AFTER trying to reach Sue and failing. Petty revenge isn't Doom's style, it's certainly not Reed's. Overwrought, intricate genocide from SCIENCE? That sounds like Reed.
If Doom really loved someone he would (literally) move Heaven and Earth to protect them. Death? You think a mere primal force of the cosmos can challenge Doom?
First, congratulations on your pregnancy. Second, I remember this issue of "What If...?" primarily because, it was one of the few issues that treated, what was considered an "imaginary story" at the time, with a depth and intensity usually saved for actual cannon stories. Truly a well done and emotionally heavy piece.
Thanks, Sasha. This issue came out soon after our son was born, and I had stopped reading comics for a while (time ...), so I never saw it. I liked the story, and liked your spin on it even more. I'm one of those that always thought the Fantastic Four was Marvel's First Family, and enjoy catching up on them when I dip back into comics every so often.
Good breakdown on the over-criticism of “women in refrigerators.” I used to think it was a major issue, then saw it being applied to Deadpool 2 and realized that it’s become a lazy critique.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp I do think there are definitely times it's a problem I just also think like every term people starting using it in the wrong situations like I honestly feel like people will just use it any time a female characters dies no matter the circumstance
It being applied to this what if is honestly especially strange, its non canon, she's not going anywhere. Like the difference between this and green lantern is that Jade was killed to further Kyles character, but this comic isn't sacrificing Sue for Reeds character arc, the 616 version of Sue is still alive
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp OH no it definitely is. The problem is that people treat it like a low hanging fruit to rag on why a movie sucks. Except the fruit isn't low hanging and all they're actually reaching for one pretty high up. There's the same problem with Mary Sue's nowadays. That is a legitimate problem in lazy writing, but who can tell anymore because that critique is made so often its come to mean nothing. People don't use it properly or put any meaning behind it, so it's not a painful meme that just means a character you don't like in general. Fridging is similar. Most people don't give actual critiques on the use, effect on the plot, etc so it just means "character I don't like is gone". Honestly you could say all of this is just an unfortunate side effect of reviews and critical analysis becoming a much more accessible and common practice. Everyone's just using a lot of words incorrectly in really overly bias reviews and blurring their actual usage.
The funeral panels where everyone is in their superhero costumes makes me really want a version of the Tony Stark funeral scene in Endgame but they’re all wearing their costumes.
So as someone who has the same attitude to death as annihalus this story just instantly made him so very real to me. This is a mad, nigh omnicidal tyrant with not a shred of humanity in him but in those few panels? I could see myself in him more than even Reed or Johny, people who also have such strong, human reactions but ones that I (being pretty young) am lucky to not have felt yet. But the begging for life, even a mutilated one, in the face- the THOUGHT of death? Now THAT I can relate to
I remember being shocked as a kid when they appeared to kill the Black Cat at the end of a SpiderMan story when she dove into the sea covered in webbing rather than go to jail. They gave no indication she had survived and even tacked on a “but we had proof she was innocent” to kick Spidey in the balls to finish
I think the problem with the trope is it's become just that, a very brief explanation of a thing that happens and because it's a trope it must be "bad". Except all tropes can be handled well or poorly. If you read through the original site it really is a fascinating perspective since it's a fairly neutral question being posed to and answered by a lot of different writers. Some disagree, some are suspiciously defensive and others agree that's a thing they've done. That it was just lazy storytelling and a cheap way to shock people. Which raises a lot of questions about the role of gender in comics. These are predominately male writers, assuming they're writing for an audience of the same, working for yet more men. How much space is there for women to speak up? And if that's true in a workplace then how much of the creative output will suffer from that problem? I would argue this is better side of the trope. Sue has agency, shares her perspective and wasn't a character created just for this purpose. Add in that it's a What If? so it's not killing the main continuity variant, it's almost the anti-fridge. Everything else is on a sliding scale towards characters just introduced to die without any real characterization apart from dead and female. Like the weird prevalence of widowers in TV while the reverse is far less common. Sometimes we only meet the women in flashbacks and much later on in the series because they're exclusively there to be dead wives. A complete lack of perspective, agency and only there to be part of a male character's backstory. I think the other thing people neglect was it was a larger question of how female characters were treated. How often were they depowered or assaulted? How did this compare to how male characters were treated? And yeah there's a marked difference and it's rarely tied into fantastic writing. A certain Avengers #200 comes to mind. This also isn't that. She's not being put into a fridge. There's no future where it's just the make characters moving on with their lives, this is it. She's not being given a weirdly suggestive send off or being brutalized just for kicks. It's a medical issue that gives her plenty of panels to talk about her life. A lot of really bad storylines could have been improved by including all of the above.
Thank you Sasha! Sue's pregnancies are core to "Marvel's First Family" and yet they get short shrift in how the FF are discussed, at least since 2005 or so. They provide a prism that belies the "Reed is one bad day away from being Doom," that Ben is a sophomoric bruiser (war hero, test pilot, astronaut? Not in recent years.....), and that Johnny is just a young hot head who digs chicks and hot rods (as it would have been put back in the day). They provide Sue with agency, as you put it, and an identity beyond being "Mrs. Reed Richards." I'm looking forward to your "evolution of the Invisible Girl/Woman" video as well as to her pregnancies in canon.
There were a couple dark Fantastic Four What If comics. I remember one of them where Franklin Richards was a demon parasite who sucked the life out of most of the team and drove Reed insane. There was another where all of the Fantastic Four had the same powers, and it involved Sue killing herself when she gained the powers of The Thing and becoming a nun when she gained stretchy powers.
No, you're mixing them up a bit; she went to the convent when she got flame powers and accidentally burned a little kid. And it was Sharon Ventura who tried killing herself when she became She-Thing. Thing-Sue and Thing-Reed just go off to Monster Island to live with the Mole-Man.
No Actually that was Franklin's sister Suzy Richards who was the demon parasite, Franklin was the one who defeated her by sealing her in the Negative Zone.
The Watcher knows there is nothing more satisfying than reading / writing womp stories for your favourite character which explains why most of the What If Comics end in tragedy.
Holy Cow! There's a full and insightful breakdown on Fridging here and the world at large might not know because of the title. Gonna be saving this one.
Re: Fridging, I think GL’s girlfriend was created literally too die (and she also would’ve been a better Green Lantern!). We don’t know her enough to actually mourn her. We just care that GL is sad. That’s different from Sue or Elektra dying who we did care about on their own terms. For instance, Elektra dying after choosing not to kill Foggy elevates the tragedy for her, not just Matt.
I thought this was going to be 'what if sue's second child had lived.' It's very similar to this, but with a horror film vibe. It left quite an impression on me as a child...
I don’t love it when Sue is presented as the only thing keeping Reed stable. It can sometimes make me feel like Sue is only staying around for Reed, and when writers really lean into she likes Namor or she likes Ben, it can intensify that feeling. It’s never been confirmed, and it’s probably that I’m looking at it from the view of my own life experiences.
I disagree. It is a very human weakness for a hero in a comic about a family, and one that allows Sue to show strength in an equally human way. Love can be just as much about responsibility as it is about passion, and I don't really like the idea that her passing over other characters she has feelings for is only an illustration of her being trapped, as it shows character to actually work at a relationship.
On the potentially tangential topic of character deaths, I have to say for me the death of James MacDonald Hudson - AKA Guardian - in 'Alpha Flight' #12: "And One Shall Surely Die" was pretty emotionally effective storytelling. The fact that - at the time at least - it appeared that he had died in part both because of AND to save Heather really resonated with me at that moment in my life. And in candor, when I think about it it still resonates with me.
5:06 The caption reads "...not only had I snagged the resident dream man on campus...", but I swear--and I listened to it three times--that Sasha says "shagged". Which rather changes the tone of that image. I know I shouldn't be snickering in the middle of such a dramatic story, but I couldn't help it!
It does seem pretty clear cut that this is an affirmation of the main story that has some interesting ideas that aren't fully explored, and me being the fan of Doctor Doom that I am it seems like he is left out too... But then the world probably wasn't ready for Uncle Doom at that point.
Great vid - as always! But I'm surprised normally you give Reed a hard time about his relationship with Sue. But even though the door was opened - you never slammed it shut! It's kind of like talking about the Avengers without Tony's famous line about disbanding the Avengers. This story did show how much Reed cared for Sue and what it drove him to do, while sad was it in character for Reed? I think so and your take on it is spot on!
Despite the sadness of it all, I like to think that this story concluded with a 'Three Men And A Baby' type situation for Ben, Johnny, and Namor. Would totally be up for that😂
Reed is a man who, in opposition to his power set, is about as flexible and open as a concrete engine block. Sue made it better, let him open up and see the sunshine, kept the smartest man in the world using his heart, not just his head. Without her, Reed loses the part of him that's still the hero. he becomes clinical, ruthless, unstoppable. A man with all the knowledge in the world, but no wisdom and no heart.
12:29 Holy shit Sasha, why aren’t you writing for one of the Big Two?! I stopped caring about the original what if and just wanted to see yours play out lmaoo loved you since the old Shippers Guide days! Keep killin’ it!
I think that there is a lot of potential in these kinds of stories. In some ways, this reminds me of the best kinds of fan-fiction - using a hypothetical to explore the depths of a character, instead of just "hey, wouldn't this be WEIRD?!". I think that my problem is a lot of the darker storylines, even in the "fictional stories", is that it's not clear to me what the author is trying to explore with the loss or hurt they're putting the characters through. It often feels more manipulative of the audience than it is deepening of the characters. That said, I love the thrupple energy of Sue's comments about Ben. Where's my semi-romantic Reed-Sue-Ben triangle? Alicia Masters can come too - she's awesome.
I like the story overall. It's always interesting to see stories where a hero dies someway that a normal person can. (I loved the Death of Captain Marvel graphic novel.) Sue's reflection on things was a great moment and showed how brave she is. (The fact that it happened in a What If, during a time period where death in mainstream continuity had more meaning, was a bonus.) I also enjoyed how it affected those around her, though I agree Franklin was forgotten way too easily. Overall, I feel that a character's death needs to be meaningful like this. Cannon fodder deaths of established characters always makes me angry. It feels like lazy way to attempt to make a situation seen serious. Two example that really made me angry were Sharon Friedlander in Uncanny X-Men #298 and Rusty Collins in X-Men #42. These were important characters at one point and get killed unspectacularly and are barely mourned by characters close to them afterwards. Also, Sasha, I love your ideas on what you would do with stories. You have a great sense of story and character. I really hope, when you have time, you are writing your own stories.
You aren't one of my most active subscriptions, but whenever you show up in my feed it's always a fun time 🤗 Best wishes with your pregnency and keep up the good work!
3:41 And there's loads of films and shows where women giving birth shout "DON'T TOUCH ME AGAIN" at their boyfriends or husbands which probably happens sometimes in real life but not as often as in fiction.
Super interesting prototypical Maker(Ultimate Reed Richards) and actual character exploration for the rest of the team? this feels like something that was necesary to be writen to inspire future comics. Just the idea of they actually giving that small scene to Sue about bad medical care was intriguing enough.
I remember reading this when it came out. What If REALLY could punch you in the feelings. I was young too, so it wasn't one I reread much. But this portrayal of Sue and Reed's first meeting was so much less squick than John Byrne's portrayal of 11 year old Sue and 25 year old college Reed at the boarding house. 😮
Wait... when Johnny is talking about sue raising him from childhood to adolescence, sitting next to Black Panther, is that Hercules? Where's his facial hair? I don't remember Herc being without beard and mustache. As always thank you so very much for the video. I like to think Franklin was adopted by Namor, and through Atlantean science/magic/mutant ability, he became a prince of the sea.
My hypothesis is that this story had been written, drawn, and completed with the baby having died with Sue. But then some editor decided at the last moment that it would be too dark and had a line or two of dialogue altered to say the baby survived.
There's an issue in the second run of What If where they look at the Fantastic Four, specificly Sue's second pregnancy from two different outcomes. That may be one to look at as well. Also, for a short, you may want to take a look at John Byrne's Man of Steel, the mini-series that reinvented Superman post-Crisis, mostly because given how Krypton is portrayed technology wise, Superman's arrival on Earth is more or less when he is born.
That's a fun alternative, but I prefer the idea that Reed would shut down emotionally and devote himself to science to avoid facing his grief. Eventually becoming a borderline villain.
Okay "Fridgin" is interesting and can be overused true. A look at this would be cool *hint hint* On another note: I hated they didn't kill Maeve. By avoiding the "bury ur gays" they turned her into the Holy Plot Armor gay that can't have anything (of any importance) happen to them. Now this is not comics but it's one of the reasons I don't want Will on Stranger Things to be gay cuz then they may not kill him at the end of Season 5. We're gay not infallible cosmic beings, well except me of course lol
@jun rivera It was so annoying cause they spent the whole season building up how powerful these explosions were then it was just like yup no. Polygon would write a scathing article so let's not lol It was one of those thing where it was "fine" but it weakened the overall verisimilitude and took away her big damn hero moment.
@@CasuallyComics exactly and it would've been a perfect closure for her arc. In the first episode she dismisses Starlight's situation and is even annoyed by it, here she is giving it all for other people. But nope, was just a Tuesday
@@CasuallyComics and the defense of "The blast was weaker because he already tried to use it several times and that he was weak because of it" it's such a BS. Granted the gas they used staggered him but not to make the blast that weak.
The thing about bury your gays is that was done to abide by the hayes code, its a punishment for being gay, its not just gay people dying, a lot of people just ignore that context.
@@creature6715 Bury your gays also exist as a way to ‘return the world to a straight standard’. Even as more sympathetic gay characters began to appear, during and after hayes code, it would fall into the ‘one good one, if only they weren’t gay trope’. Often this characters life was already bad cause ‘gay’ and their death and only their death redeems them (even if unrelated to ‘gay’), their death returns the fictional world that they occupy back to the straight/hetero safe standard. There death could have been a sacrifice for a platonic friend or for a straight person they maybe had explicit or subtextual feelings for. But either way, while being sad to ‘see them go’ is something characters feel in the story, for viewers or readers the one potential possibility for positive representation on an on going basis has now left the fictional world and the world becomes safely straight again. Despite all that, I do think Maeve could have easily died because the worse thing you can be in the boys isn’t LGBTQ+. A lot of modern stories have embraced what I like to call ‘casual gayness’ where assumed straightness is less present. So 1, the idea a ‘straight standard’ is restored by one death doesn’t feel as common anymore. And 2, it is giving way too many characters plot armor they shouldn’t have as writers run in fear of hitting a ‘bury your gays trope’.
Nicely done. I've been reading comics since the 60's and enjoy your wit and snark. If you want material for a video, may I suggest Magnum Robot Fighter 36; (mid '90's), and Miracleman 9; (mid 80's). Have a good afternoon and stay healthy.
Dang, this is a depressing one. Now you'll have to cover "What if Namor joined the Fantastic Four" to balance it out... or Issue #21, which is a sequel to the very first issue and keeps with the pregnancy theme (Although in that one Reed and Johnny become straight-up villains).
I often see the collective work of writers and artists on The FF makes them the embodiment of the human spirit, yes Spider-Man is a better example but the FF are broken people who sought refuge in each other and live like the b*tch that it is hit them time after time after time again: from Ben losing his brother and being raised by his young Aunt Petunia seeing almost no future beyond the gangs, to Sue parenting Johnny due to their father´s gambling problem to Reed being neglected by Nathaniel with no maternal figure after his mother and stepmom passing. The pregnancy, Franklin, and Valeria, finally get what they wanted but with a twist. When they discover something new there´s always a new villain, an eviction, somebody that wants to screw them over and over again, they cannot rest, they cannot give up. And there they are prevailing with curiosity and hope for the future while making the present marvelous.
i always love me a good 'what if?' comics story. i dig the preg theme you're rolling with--- best of luck with the current pregnancy, good health to you and the eventual baby!
It makes sense for Reed to spiral out of control when he has to face something his science can't deal with. I don't know if the "happy" note with "They found each other in another life" after he commits a revenge murder-suicide was the best angle for a conclusion, though.
I love this. We had twins. My wife complained that the woman in the next bed was making too much noise. After our son was born, as our daughter started, my wife said "Ouch". I dare say that I would have made a good deal more noise. (Of course, as a man, I'm guessing.
another great video sasha, your outfit is very stylish and the story is interesting, i assume the child of sue was cut or edited out , seems like a large missing story beat. also its always fun seeing annihulus a coward and reed as the villain
Now you've covered this, what about the later one they did examining the What if of the Richards' second child surviving (this was long before Valeria Richards was introduced)? It has two different versions of the story and the second one is also insanely tragic.
As far as pregnancy plots go, how about Power Girl's pregnancy? It would give you a reason to say "Why would Hal Jordan do this?" even though I don't think it was his in the end.
Great episode Sasha. What if's from that period had some great stories like this. It went in a dark direction but what could you expect from that situation unless it became 'The Courtship of Franklin's Father. (Bill Bixby would make a great Reed Richards.). The writers handled most of it well except of course for the missing baby Franklin. Also how many retcons has the Reed/Sue relationship gone through especially when people were feeling that Sue and Reed had a Lolita thing going on? I believe in this issue that Herbie the robot raised the young and angry (because he was parentless) Franklin. Franklin would use the money from the Richards Foundation to fight crime using his father's technology becoming the Blue Knight NYC needs. He would become Fantastic Man. *Will you be doing an episode on Saturn Girl's pregnancy?*
Hi @casuallycomics , do you think you could cover some stories from over seas in ww2. ive always wondered about what the troops were reading in comics at the time. supes over seas?
My first What If and one of my favourites is "What If Professor X Became The Juggernaut". Also up there are the two-parter of Captain America not going in the ice, and the double sized where the Richards' daughter had lived (??????)
Only channel on UA-cam where you can get obscure classic comics reviews with this much snark, thoughtful analysis, a digression into examining the Stuffed In The Fridge trope, and random disses at Kyle Rayner and What If Miles Morales comics. Although, Sasha ... I know when reading lines from the comics, you don't always get them word-for-word right, but changing "I snagged the resident dream man on campus" to "I shagged the resident dream man on campus" ... Fredric Wertham would not approve.
He will never see the invisible woman again.
😂😂
Sasha: Hey guys, I'm pregnant! So I decided to cover some pregnancy stories from comics
also Sasha: *starts the series with a story about a character dying during child birth*
I actually had this one as a kid. It hit hard and strange. Looking back, it might be the first time I ever saw supers acting like real people.
The follow up: The NEW Fantastic Four!
Johnny Storm, Ben Grimm, Crystal and... Namor, he just never left!
I kind of have to wonder if the original story _did_ have Franklin die as well, but editorial, or the Comics Code Authority said "No."
I think that’s precisely what happened. It was a last minute decision to try and avoid total grim darkness that they hadn’t really planned for.
"Is this character assassination of Reed?" No, this isn't even close to the worst thing Reed has done.
If that isn't depressingly fun to think about idk what is
“Sue was my life. Without her what do I have left?” Ummm, your newborn baby? Remember him? Someone has been taking care of him, right? Reed? Someone has been taking care of him all this time, right?!
Reed's been taking tips from Silver Age Superman: "From now on, this orphanage will be your home!"
yeah franklin not being mentioned at all is werid. kind of suprised he didn't die too. if franklin died than there wouldn't be the issue of not seeing him and it would add to the tragedy.
Honestly, Reed being completely broken wihtout Sue works for me. Even the part where he can't even acknowledge that his son survived.
While one would like to think that we'd be briefly overcome with giref but realize they have a responsibility to care for and raise their kid, that takes a strenght of character most of us hope we have but desperately hope we never have to find out if we actually do. It's extremely humanizing to see Reed fall short, knowing that at an intellectual level he absolutely knows what he should and needs to do, but emotionally the void he mentions is really a vaccum that sucked every bit of joy and purpose out of him. He grew up in a black and white world of science and intellect and it was all easy and until he met Sue - enough. then he meets her and the world has color and meaning beyond the numbers. She effectively becomes the core of his humanity - the glue binding him to the rest of th world. Rip that away and you get Doom and Reed didn't want that.
What might have been a nice epilog would be years later, Johnny and Ben showing Franklin a recording Reed left, explaining that he loved him, but knew he didn't have it in him to not blame Franklin (as well as himself) for Sues death, and it wasn't fair to have to grow up with that baggage.
I don't agree with Reed's actions, but I get it.
In my head: She isn't covering that one, is she?
Edit: She is....
P.S. This is probably the most somber Namor has been and I like that writers remember he has more emotions than anger.
P.P.S. This comic is a very somber read. Definitely not for everyone. But I do like it for its look at the grieving process. Although, I confess I had forgotten that Franklin had survived and should have been a more important factor in this story.
Compared to a lot of Elseworlds and What Ifs? that either kill a lot of people or have character X become character Y, this is certainly a cut above the rest.
This gave me Namor x Reed vibes towards the end and honestly I kinda want that story now. Just Namor and Reed raising Franklin together.
5:06, Susan said "snagged" but Sasha read it as "shagged". Getting all Freudian in here.
The interesting thing is Reed's Quest For Vengeance is, as you mentioned, not only Reed avoiding any attempt at internalizing, but not really revenge, but straight-up murder. It's easy to forget because he is a genocidal tyrant has since tried his hand at conquest, but the Annihilus of FF Annual #6 was actually minding his own damn business until three invaders came and tried to snatch what was his own personal property, and if they didn't bargain to give back what was actually his, he would have died. Actually, a read of that issue kind of indicates Sue's death didn't suddenly snap Reed, the whole ordeal put a strain on his mind, and he made what could be considered a great deal of moral compromises. That it ended in failure probably really broke him.
I remember this issue as one of my very first What if...? comics. And this came right on the heals of "What if Aunt Mae had died?" I love the maturity and sobriety of it. I also loved the Sue POV, and was able to mentally project that back onto the mainline canon; it gave the main story more depth, too.
What if...? would occasionally have sequel issues. Would have loved to see one for this where we see what an orphaned Franklin Richards would develop into.
if aunt may died permanently...we wouldn't get 1 more day.
I would love there to be a What If? for each of the FF's deaths in a similar style, seeing Sue's response to Johnny's death given how responsible she feels for him would be really interesting.
The Miles as other characters What If? felt very 'how do you do fellow kids' or maybe at 21 I'm just old and out of touch.
This was a moving one. And how the "bad guy" realizes how bad it can be for them when the hero goes full vengence. Because the bad guy can't count on morals keeping the hero from going full bore power on them.
I read this one back when it first came out. And I remember the message I took from it is that it underscored how genuinely risky and dangerous Sue's pregnancy was. And it made me appreciate how very close they came to tragedy.
This was emphasized several years later during John Byrne's run on the "Fantastic Four." Sue gets pregnant for a second time. This has been some years after her first pregnancy. And Reed Richards (the word's smartest man) knew she probably would get pregnant again and tried to plan for it. Still, she ends up losing the baby, even though she manages to survive.
I want to see a "Two and a Half Men" sequal comic where Jonny and Ben raise Franklin. Eventually Jonny Sheen..Charlie Storm? Would be replaced by Namor when the human torch burns himself out and has to go to rehab. Jokes aside, a gritty sequal where Jonny and/or Ben raises Frankilin who still has his intense powers and the dark knowlage of his parents fate would bebjtneresting. It could go so many different ways with him even being raised by doom instead. There is no Valeria, Susan or Reed to help guide Franklin with their intelligence and familial emotional understanding so how would the little mini-god turn out? How would the fact his parent's deaths were a result of his birth affect his psyche? How would the different parenting techniques affect him? The easy assumption is that Ben and Johnny would not be smart or emotionally open enough to meet the levels of sue, Reed and Valeria, but is this true? One could also just assume Doom would make him a monster or use him to control the world..but would he? Perhaps he wouldn't be told the truth of how his parents died until later and it would break him like the Scarlet Witch and make an alternate universe where they lived..or he didn't exist! Maybe he will rewrite reality to shift the roles and make it HIM who died in the childbirth over Sue. Perhaps we would get a second sequal series where Sue becomes the Joker as a result and Gritty Mr. Plastic Batastic fights crime with a shotgun..he forms with his own hand.
I could see the issue going in two directions- one where he's adopted by Ben and Alicia, and one with Johnny and Crystal. That way we can show how a blind parental figure would impact his life, or how the influence of the Inhumans would affect Crystal's ability to raise children of her own.
What about The Fantastic Three Men and a Baby, where Reed survives to help raise him too?
@@ashleytuchin7693 Nah, Ben, Johnny and Namor :)
I like the two and a half men angle. You start with a repeat of Johnny's soliloquy, but he says it to Franklin, then promises to take care of him. Through mutual loss and care if Franklin. Ben and Johnny grow to be good odd couple godfathers.
@@douglasphillips5870 The Odd Couple would be Johnny and Namor in their old ages. Then you not only get messy/clean but also commoner/noble and fire/water.... A trifecta of oddity!
As a companion to this check out What If? Vol 2 #30. “What if Sue and Reeds second child had lived”. This was before it was reconned that she had and it’s got two dark stories. One is really really fucking dark.
what happened?
@@ProjektTaku I actually looked it up and realized the second story isn’t as dark. The first one thought is a doozy. It turns out the Sue and Reeds second child is an energy vampire that kills her in birth. Franklin figures out what is going in but no one listens and the “child” ends up killing Alicia Masters, Ben and Johnny. Reed is not only in denial but becomes verbally abusive to Franklin. Eventually Franklin asks Doctor Doom for help and the confront Reed and the monster. The monster kills both Reed and Doom but Franklin traps her in the negative zone. Like I said, dark. There is a panel of Alicia all skeletal and barely alive from the psychic vampirism that still sticks with me.
@@nilus2k damn bro...that's insane.
And poor franklin.
His sibling kills his mom at birth, then kills his uncle and practical uncle, friend of his parents, then his father is in denial of it and is abusive towards him, then he has to team up with dr doom and then both his father and doom are killed.
Hope everything worked out for him in that universe.
Here's my problem with this story: It left out Doom on purpose. Namor would only come into the story after Sue died, Doom would come in BEFORE she died.
Right away I was thinking "Sue should consult another Doctor for a second opinion" and who better than the one who has a beef with every God and Devil anyone could think of mentioning?
I know this is a plot that happens later in the main series because that writer understood Doom, this writer did not. "Reed without Sue would become Doom." NO, if Reed became like Doom he would have contacted heaven and hell... maybe even created an Afterlife... in order to save Sue or at least reach her. For Doom, the only thing that's really impossible is the phrase "There's something I can't have and I accept that."
I would have accepted Reed taking the Ultimate Nullifier [trademark] he got from Galactus and destroying the whole universe... if it does what it says on the label at least... but only AFTER trying to reach Sue and failing. Petty revenge isn't Doom's style, it's certainly not Reed's. Overwrought, intricate genocide from SCIENCE? That sounds like Reed.
If Doom really loved someone he would (literally) move Heaven and Earth to protect them.
Death? You think a mere primal force of the cosmos can challenge Doom?
@@freman007it stops him plenty with his mom.
Oh that gave me chills. I hope DD can't reach out of comics..
First, congratulations on your pregnancy. Second, I remember this issue of "What If...?" primarily because, it was one of the few issues that treated, what was considered an "imaginary story" at the time, with a depth and intensity usually saved for actual cannon stories. Truly a well done and emotionally heavy piece.
Your "rabbit hole" about Reed's reaction to Franklin is fascinating. I wish it was a What If unto itself.
Thanks, Sasha. This issue came out soon after our son was born, and I had stopped reading comics for a while (time ...), so I never saw it. I liked the story, and liked your spin on it even more. I'm one of those that always thought the Fantastic Four was Marvel's First Family, and enjoy catching up on them when I dip back into comics every so often.
Good breakdown on the over-criticism of “women in refrigerators.” I used to think it was a major issue, then saw it being applied to Deadpool 2 and realized that it’s become a lazy critique.
It really has become over criticized. Of all the things wrong with comics, or comic book adaptations, women in fridge trope isn't even on the list.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp
I do think there are definitely times it's a problem I just also think like every term people starting using it in the wrong situations like I honestly feel like people will just use it any time a female characters dies no matter the circumstance
It being applied to this what if is honestly especially strange, its non canon, she's not going anywhere.
Like the difference between this and green lantern is that Jade was killed to further Kyles character, but this comic isn't sacrificing Sue for Reeds character arc, the 616 version of Sue is still alive
Well... you're not wrong, but I did think it was a lazy way to get the action started in Deadpool 2.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp OH no it definitely is. The problem is that people treat it like a low hanging fruit to rag on why a movie sucks. Except the fruit isn't low hanging and all they're actually reaching for one pretty high up. There's the same problem with Mary Sue's nowadays. That is a legitimate problem in lazy writing, but who can tell anymore because that critique is made so often its come to mean nothing. People don't use it properly or put any meaning behind it, so it's not a painful meme that just means a character you don't like in general. Fridging is similar. Most people don't give actual critiques on the use, effect on the plot, etc so it just means "character I don't like is gone". Honestly you could say all of this is just an unfortunate side effect of reviews and critical analysis becoming a much more accessible and common practice. Everyone's just using a lot of words incorrectly in really overly bias reviews and blurring their actual usage.
"...Sue can see right through it." I see what you did there lol
The funeral panels where everyone is in their superhero costumes makes me really want a version of the Tony Stark funeral scene in Endgame but they’re all wearing their costumes.
Lol it's in his will. No suit no service.
So as someone who has the same attitude to death as annihalus this story just instantly made him so very real to me.
This is a mad, nigh omnicidal tyrant with not a shred of humanity in him but in those few panels? I could see myself in him more than even Reed or Johny, people who also have such strong, human reactions but ones that I (being pretty young) am lucky to not have felt yet. But the begging for life, even a mutilated one, in the face- the THOUGHT of death? Now THAT I can relate to
The preglist. This is why I subbed. You have an amazing ability to send my sides to orbit.
Love that fake "what if spider-man married black widow" gag
Spidey always had a thing for redheads
I remember being shocked as a kid when they appeared to kill the Black Cat at the end of a SpiderMan story when she dove into the sea covered in webbing rather than go to jail.
They gave no indication she had survived and even tacked on a “but we had proof she was innocent” to kick Spidey in the balls to finish
I would read New FF: Three Men and a Baby. Johnny, Ben and Namor trying to raise a child would be great!
THIS IS THE STORY YOU START WITH?!?! You're a weirdo and I love it, never stop.
I think the problem with the trope is it's become just that, a very brief explanation of a thing that happens and because it's a trope it must be "bad". Except all tropes can be handled well or poorly.
If you read through the original site it really is a fascinating perspective since it's a fairly neutral question being posed to and answered by a lot of different writers. Some disagree, some are suspiciously defensive and others agree that's a thing they've done. That it was just lazy storytelling and a cheap way to shock people.
Which raises a lot of questions about the role of gender in comics. These are predominately male writers, assuming they're writing for an audience of the same, working for yet more men. How much space is there for women to speak up? And if that's true in a workplace then how much of the creative output will suffer from that problem?
I would argue this is better side of the trope. Sue has agency, shares her perspective and wasn't a character created just for this purpose. Add in that it's a What If? so it's not killing the main continuity variant, it's almost the anti-fridge.
Everything else is on a sliding scale towards characters just introduced to die without any real characterization apart from dead and female. Like the weird prevalence of widowers in TV while the reverse is far less common. Sometimes we only meet the women in flashbacks and much later on in the series because they're exclusively there to be dead wives. A complete lack of perspective, agency and only there to be part of a male character's backstory.
I think the other thing people neglect was it was a larger question of how female characters were treated. How often were they depowered or assaulted? How did this compare to how male characters were treated? And yeah there's a marked difference and it's rarely tied into fantastic writing. A certain Avengers #200 comes to mind. This also isn't that. She's not being put into a fridge. There's no future where it's just the make characters moving on with their lives, this is it. She's not being given a weirdly suggestive send off or being brutalized just for kicks. It's a medical issue that gives her plenty of panels to talk about her life. A lot of really bad storylines could have been improved by including all of the above.
Thank you Sasha! Sue's pregnancies are core to "Marvel's First Family" and yet they get short shrift in how the FF are discussed, at least since 2005 or so. They provide a prism that belies the "Reed is one bad day away from being Doom," that Ben is a sophomoric bruiser (war hero, test pilot, astronaut? Not in recent years.....), and that Johnny is just a young hot head who digs chicks and hot rods (as it would have been put back in the day). They provide Sue with agency, as you put it, and an identity beyond being "Mrs. Reed Richards." I'm looking forward to your "evolution of the Invisible Girl/Woman" video as well as to her pregnancies in canon.
There were a couple dark Fantastic Four What If comics. I remember one of them where Franklin Richards was a demon parasite who sucked the life out of most of the team and drove Reed insane. There was another where all of the Fantastic Four had the same powers, and it involved Sue killing herself when she gained the powers of The Thing and becoming a nun when she gained stretchy powers.
No, you're mixing them up a bit; she went to the convent when she got flame powers and accidentally burned a little kid. And it was Sharon Ventura who tried killing herself when she became She-Thing. Thing-Sue and Thing-Reed just go off to Monster Island to live with the Mole-Man.
No Actually that was Franklin's sister Suzy Richards who was the demon parasite, Franklin was the one who defeated her by sealing her in the Negative Zone.
The Watcher knows there is nothing more satisfying than reading / writing womp stories for your favourite character which explains why most of the What If Comics end in tragedy.
Congradulation to you and your husband. I had actually had that issue when I was a kid in '77.
Holy Cow! There's a full and insightful breakdown on Fridging here and the world at large might not know because of the title. Gonna be saving this one.
Re: Fridging, I think GL’s girlfriend was created literally too die (and she also would’ve been a better Green Lantern!). We don’t know her enough to actually mourn her. We just care that GL is sad. That’s different from Sue or Elektra dying who we did care about on their own terms. For instance, Elektra dying after choosing not to kill Foggy elevates the tragedy for her, not just Matt.
"Someone call Namor! Ah, who am I kidding? He's probably already there!" 😂🤣
I thought this was going to be 'what if sue's second child had lived.'
It's very similar to this, but with a horror film vibe.
It left quite an impression on me as a child...
I don’t love it when Sue is presented as the only thing keeping Reed stable. It can sometimes make me feel like Sue is only staying around for Reed, and when writers really lean into she likes Namor or she likes Ben, it can intensify that feeling. It’s never been confirmed, and it’s probably that I’m looking at it from the view of my own life experiences.
I disagree. It is a very human weakness for a hero in a comic about a family, and one that allows Sue to show strength in an equally human way. Love can be just as much about responsibility as it is about passion, and I don't really like the idea that her passing over other characters she has feelings for is only an illustration of her being trapped, as it shows character to actually work at a relationship.
On the potentially tangential topic of character deaths, I have to say for me the death of James MacDonald Hudson - AKA Guardian - in 'Alpha Flight' #12: "And One Shall Surely Die" was pretty emotionally effective storytelling. The fact that - at the time at least - it appeared that he had died in part both because of AND to save Heather really resonated with me at that moment in my life. And in candor, when I think about it it still resonates with me.
5:06 The caption reads "...not only had I snagged the resident dream man on campus...", but I swear--and I listened to it three times--that Sasha says "shagged". Which rather changes the tone of that image. I know I shouldn't be snickering in the middle of such a dramatic story, but I couldn't help it!
It does seem pretty clear cut that this is an affirmation of the main story that has some interesting ideas that aren't fully explored, and me being the fan of Doctor Doom that I am it seems like he is left out too...
But then the world probably wasn't ready for Uncle Doom at that point.
Great vid - as always! But I'm surprised normally you give Reed a hard time about his relationship with Sue. But even though the door was opened - you never slammed it shut! It's kind of like talking about the Avengers without Tony's famous line about disbanding the Avengers. This story did show how much Reed cared for Sue and what it drove him to do, while sad was it in character for Reed? I think so and your take on it is spot on!
Your lipstick game is always perfectly on point, I'm so freaking jealous.
Despite the sadness of it all, I like to think that this story concluded with a 'Three Men And A Baby' type situation for Ben, Johnny, and Namor. Would totally be up for that😂
Reed is a man who, in opposition to his power set, is about as flexible and open as a concrete engine block. Sue made it better, let him open up and see the sunshine, kept the smartest man in the world using his heart, not just his head.
Without her, Reed loses the part of him that's still the hero. he becomes clinical, ruthless, unstoppable. A man with all the knowledge in the world, but no wisdom and no heart.
I'm not sure if Reed is shy or just oblivious to Sue's attraction. Heck, I know I've been oblivious to what to others were pretty obvious situations.
This is actually my favorite one shot story ever. I found it poignant as a child and it withstood the test of time imo.
This will be a great playlist, I can't wait
Reed was the hot man on campus? That's the most unbelievable thing in any universe
I know, right?
12:29
Holy shit Sasha, why aren’t you writing for one of the Big Two?! I stopped caring about the original what if and just wanted to see yours play out lmaoo loved you since the old Shippers Guide days! Keep killin’ it!
I think that there is a lot of potential in these kinds of stories. In some ways, this reminds me of the best kinds of fan-fiction - using a hypothetical to explore the depths of a character, instead of just "hey, wouldn't this be WEIRD?!". I think that my problem is a lot of the darker storylines, even in the "fictional stories", is that it's not clear to me what the author is trying to explore with the loss or hurt they're putting the characters through. It often feels more manipulative of the audience than it is deepening of the characters.
That said, I love the thrupple energy of Sue's comments about Ben. Where's my semi-romantic Reed-Sue-Ben triangle? Alicia Masters can come too - she's awesome.
I like the story overall. It's always interesting to see stories where a hero dies someway that a normal person can. (I loved the Death of Captain Marvel graphic novel.) Sue's reflection on things was a great moment and showed how brave she is. (The fact that it happened in a What If, during a time period where death in mainstream continuity had more meaning, was a bonus.) I also enjoyed how it affected those around her, though I agree Franklin was forgotten way too easily. Overall, I feel that a character's death needs to be meaningful like this. Cannon fodder deaths of established characters always makes me angry. It feels like lazy way to attempt to make a situation seen serious. Two example that really made me angry were Sharon Friedlander in Uncanny X-Men #298 and Rusty Collins in X-Men #42. These were important characters at one point and get killed unspectacularly and are barely mourned by characters close to them afterwards.
Also, Sasha, I love your ideas on what you would do with stories. You have a great sense of story and character. I really hope, when you have time, you are writing your own stories.
You aren't one of my most active subscriptions, but whenever you show up in my feed it's always a fun time 🤗 Best wishes with your pregnency and keep up the good work!
5:05 I think it actually says 'snagged' right there, but tbh your way is funnier 😂😂
3:41 And there's loads of films and shows where women giving birth shout "DON'T TOUCH ME AGAIN" at their boyfriends or husbands which probably happens sometimes in real life but not as often as in fiction.
"What if" #42 has a MICHAEL GOLDEN cover art I never knew about! THANKS!
Super interesting prototypical Maker(Ultimate Reed Richards) and actual character exploration for the rest of the team? this feels like something that was necesary to be writen to inspire future comics. Just the idea of they actually giving that small scene to Sue about bad medical care was intriguing enough.
I remember reading this when it came out. What If REALLY could punch you in the feelings. I was young too, so it wasn't one I reread much. But this portrayal of Sue and Reed's first meeting was so much less squick than John Byrne's portrayal of 11 year old Sue and 25 year old college Reed at the boarding house. 😮
Thanks!
Congratulations! I visit for the comic takes, I stayed for the groovy hairstyles. God bless!
Wait... when Johnny is talking about sue raising him from childhood to adolescence, sitting next to Black Panther, is that Hercules? Where's his facial hair? I don't remember Herc being without beard and mustache.
As always thank you so very much for the video.
I like to think Franklin was adopted by Namor, and through Atlantean science/magic/mutant ability, he became a prince of the sea.
In this universe, the hercules from the disney movie is the hercules of the marvel universe.
My hypothesis is that this story had been written, drawn, and completed with the baby having died with Sue. But then some editor decided at the last moment that it would be too dark and had a line or two of dialogue altered to say the baby survived.
There's an issue in the second run of What If where they look at the Fantastic Four, specificly Sue's second pregnancy from two different outcomes. That may be one to look at as well.
Also, for a short, you may want to take a look at John Byrne's Man of Steel, the mini-series that reinvented Superman post-Crisis, mostly because given how Krypton is portrayed technology wise, Superman's arrival on Earth is more or less when he is born.
That's a fun alternative, but I prefer the idea that Reed would shut down emotionally and devote himself to science to avoid facing his grief. Eventually becoming a borderline villain.
6:42 Yes! Thank you for pointing out the truth about this trope.
Bought it off the rack at Mile High Comics back in the day. What If had some great stories.
This is a great analysis and the host is always engaging and entertaining.
Don’t blame what inside the fridge…. Blame who pack the meal.
2:34: Me and the boys ‘bout to head into the Negative Zone
gonna go grab some of them good cosmic juices.
Okay "Fridgin" is interesting and can be overused true. A look at this would be cool *hint hint*
On another note: I hated they didn't kill Maeve. By avoiding the "bury ur gays" they turned her into the Holy Plot Armor gay that can't have anything (of any importance) happen to them. Now this is not comics but it's one of the reasons I don't want Will on Stranger Things to be gay cuz then they may not kill him at the end of Season 5. We're gay not infallible cosmic beings, well except me of course lol
@jun rivera It was so annoying cause they spent the whole season building up how powerful these explosions were then it was just like yup no. Polygon would write a scathing article so let's not lol It was one of those thing where it was "fine" but it weakened the overall verisimilitude and took away her big damn hero moment.
@@CasuallyComics exactly and it would've been a perfect closure for her arc. In the first episode she dismisses Starlight's situation and is even annoyed by it, here she is giving it all for other people. But nope, was just a Tuesday
@@CasuallyComics and the defense of "The blast was weaker because he already tried to use it several times and that he was weak because of it" it's such a BS. Granted the gas they used staggered him but not to make the blast that weak.
The thing about bury your gays is that was done to abide by the hayes code, its a punishment for being gay, its not just gay people dying, a lot of people just ignore that context.
@@creature6715 Bury your gays also exist as a way to ‘return the world to a straight standard’. Even as more sympathetic gay characters began to appear, during and after hayes code, it would fall into the ‘one good one, if only they weren’t gay trope’. Often this characters life was already bad cause ‘gay’ and their death and only their death redeems them (even if unrelated to ‘gay’), their death returns the fictional world that they occupy back to the straight/hetero safe standard. There death could have been a sacrifice for a platonic friend or for a straight person they maybe had explicit or subtextual feelings for. But either way, while being sad to ‘see them go’ is something characters feel in the story, for viewers or readers the one potential possibility for positive representation on an on going basis has now left the fictional world and the world becomes safely straight again.
Despite all that, I do think Maeve could have easily died because the worse thing you can be in the boys isn’t LGBTQ+. A lot of modern stories have embraced what I like to call ‘casual gayness’ where assumed straightness is less present. So 1, the idea a ‘straight standard’ is restored by one death doesn’t feel as common anymore. And 2, it is giving way too many characters plot armor they shouldn’t have as writers run in fear of hitting a ‘bury your gays trope’.
Nicely done. I've been reading comics since the 60's and enjoy your wit and snark. If you want material for a video, may I suggest Magnum Robot Fighter 36; (mid '90's), and Miracleman 9; (mid 80's). Have a good afternoon and stay healthy.
Dang, this is a depressing one. Now you'll have to cover "What if Namor joined the Fantastic Four" to balance it out... or Issue #21, which is a sequel to the very first issue and keeps with the pregnancy theme (Although in that one Reed and Johnny become straight-up villains).
Thats a really weird one, which means it's perfect for her to cover!
Congratulations 🥳
I often see the collective work of writers and artists on The FF makes them the embodiment of the human spirit, yes Spider-Man is a better example but the FF are broken people who sought refuge in each other and live like the b*tch that it is hit them time after time after time again: from Ben losing his brother and being raised by his young Aunt Petunia seeing almost no future beyond the gangs, to Sue parenting Johnny due to their father´s gambling problem to Reed being neglected by Nathaniel with no maternal figure after his mother and stepmom passing. The pregnancy, Franklin, and Valeria, finally get what they wanted but with a twist. When they discover something new there´s always a new villain, an eviction, somebody that wants to screw them over and over again, they cannot rest, they cannot give up. And there they are prevailing with curiosity and hope for the future while making the present marvelous.
This universe's Franklin probably ended up Dr. Doom Jr after being told he killed both his parents
Namor being the voice of reason? 😳 It truly is the End Days.
i always love me a good 'what if?' comics story. i dig the preg theme you're rolling with---
best of luck with the current pregnancy, good health to you and the eventual baby!
I loved this video! Great job!
Omg been busy moving and away from the channel for a bit, congrats!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, my goddess, this is truly the saddest What if of them all
It makes sense for Reed to spiral out of control when he has to face something his science can't deal with. I don't know if the "happy" note with "They found each other in another life" after he commits a revenge murder-suicide was the best angle for a conclusion, though.
Much as I loved this issue, I remember thinking that it could have been a 22-page story because there's a LOT of padding.
I love this. We had twins. My wife complained that the woman in the next bed was making too much noise. After our son was born, as our daughter started, my wife said "Ouch".
I dare say that I would have made a good deal more noise. (Of course, as a man, I'm guessing.
That issue is the most definitive one for me. The ending is so devastating.
And then Franklin simply brings them both back, being so powerful that he is a living embodiment of the Infinity Gauntlet....
Love that the comic says she 'snagged the resident dream man' but you read it as she 'shagged' him.
so depressing, great video
another great video sasha, your outfit is very stylish and the story is interesting, i assume the child of sue was cut or edited out , seems like a large missing story beat. also its always fun seeing annihulus a coward and reed as the villain
I always enjoy your vids, but this one was especially good.
Now you've covered this, what about the later one they did examining the What if of the Richards' second child surviving (this was long before Valeria Richards was introduced)? It has two different versions of the story and the second one is also insanely tragic.
As far as pregnancy plots go, how about Power Girl's pregnancy? It would give you a reason to say "Why would Hal Jordan do this?" even though I don't think it was his in the end.
Great episode Sasha. What if's from that period had some great stories like this. It went in a dark direction but what could you expect from that situation unless it became 'The Courtship of Franklin's Father. (Bill Bixby would make a great Reed Richards.). The writers handled most of it well except of course for the missing baby Franklin. Also how many retcons has the Reed/Sue relationship gone through especially when people were feeling that Sue and Reed had a Lolita thing going on?
I believe in this issue that Herbie the robot raised the young and angry (because he was parentless) Franklin. Franklin would use the money from the Richards Foundation to fight crime using his father's technology becoming the Blue Knight NYC needs. He would become Fantastic Man. *Will you be doing an episode on Saturn Girl's pregnancy?*
Bro that Sue/Reed origin story is actually really well written.
Hi @casuallycomics , do you think you could cover some stories from over seas in ww2. ive always wondered about what the troops were reading in comics at the time. supes over seas?
My first What If and one of my favourites is "What If Professor X Became The Juggernaut". Also up there are the two-parter of Captain America not going in the ice, and the double sized where the Richards' daughter had lived (??????)
Sasha, you should cover the Unstable Molecules mini series. Its about the real live people Jack Kirby based the Fantastic Four on.
Only channel on UA-cam where you can get obscure classic comics reviews with this much snark, thoughtful analysis, a digression into examining the Stuffed In The Fridge trope, and random disses at Kyle Rayner and What If Miles Morales comics.
Although, Sasha ... I know when reading lines from the comics, you don't always get them word-for-word right, but changing "I snagged the resident dream man on campus" to "I shagged the resident dream man on campus" ... Fredric Wertham would not approve.