Model Railway Update 17 Should I go back to peco?
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- Опубліковано 25 жов 2024
- I have been having a little dilemma with my handbuilt trackwork. I thought I would explain what has been going on and I also ask for your input.
Cheers
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I wouldn't give up entirely. I haven't touched my project for about 3 - 4 years. I know it is extremely pain staking work, and therefore it is sometimes advisable to do a much smaller layout in the beginning that can at least be "finished" to the point where it's enjoyable and you're able to run some trains on it. Like a shunting yard for example. Visually as I'm sure you know, nothing mass produced even comes close.
What about a point builder? - they available on line as the station throat does look amazing with lovely lines. Then peco everywhere else. The hand built stuff does look amazing! Thanks Trevor
Hi Trevor, I did think about that but I think it would be rather costly being the slower chaired method. I agree that the plan does have a nice flow to it and it would be a shame to loose it. I will have a think about it but it'll all probably end up being peco. Cheers, Michael
Michael,
Hy your doing a real Good job on the track.
Hi Michael! Just found your channel thanks to this video. Having not known anything about your layout and your aims with it, it's a little difficult for me to give advice, but I'd say do whatever makes you happy! It's a hobby after all! I'll watch your later videos now and see what you decided to do! I have subscribed to your channel and look forward to more videos! All the best, Rich
Thanks, Yeah basically it's going to be a countryside set branch/single track mainline with hopefully a very small industry on one side. I have made all the trackwork so far which I am happy with, although it has took ages lol. Hope you enjoy. Cheers, Michael
@@MichaelHenfrey I watched the following video where you teased pulling the track up! The hand-made track looks incredible. What brand is it and how does it compare cost wise to peco?
@@stmichaelshill7421 Well I was actually considering it at one point, but I had gone way too far to turn back and I'm glad I stuck it out. Its c&l HiNi n/s code 75 bullhead rail, Exactoscale chairs and the sleepers I cut out from sheets of 3mm ply. If you can make everything by hand I think it works out a little bit cheaper than rtr but I've never actually worked out the cost
Michael, it’s easy for me to say but I’d keep persevering with the work you are doing. What you have produced so far is a work of art, the point, albeit with issues, looks stunning and more prototypical than anything you will ever buy off the shelf. This is a learning curve for you and issues will arise but you will work through them and know how to avoid those problems when it comes to the next task in hand. I know if you complete this you will have something quite exceptional and you will look back on the build and realise it was worth the agony. In the meantime, to avoid a collapse in enthusiasm, is there anything else you can turn your hand to that would give you a break from trackwork and allow you to come back to it later with a fresh mind? I know by having a number of different jobs on the go it can prevent you from losing interest in a project. Feel for you mate. Paul
Thanks Paul, I know what you mean, it looks really good and that makes me want to continue but I do worry about glueing it down and ballasting and then having a problem occur with the tie bars because it'd take me half a day to remake a point. Unfortunately there isn't much else to do at the moment until I get a loop complete. I think I will just take a few weeks off it and see how things go. If I do go with peco then I will make something smaller later with handbuilt track to allow me to test everything.
Cheers, Michael
Hi Michael, I feel for you with the trouble that you are having. If I read the situation correctly most of the problems seem to be with solder joints breaking. If the soldering iron that you are using is that Antex, which looks to be about 15 watts, then I would say that most of the trouble is with that. I would not use an iron of less that 45 to 50 watts for track work as it will take ages to get the joint hot enough for good solder flow.
When building my track for Canal Sidings (although using copper clad sleepers and code 75 rail) I used a 48 watt temperature controlled iron for all the joints set to 420 degees C. This allowed me to make a perfect joint in about 3 seconds. I used a chisel shaped bit about 3mm across and Carrs Red flux on every joint. I also used the same to attach the dropper wires but at a temperature of 350 degrees C. The solder was always 24 guage flux cored solder.
My advice is to use leaded solder. The lead free stuff is a nightmare and requires considerably more heat to get it to flow properly. Contrary to popular belief it is still legal to sell, buy and use leaded solder.
To avoid twisted rails I used roller guages that hold the rail upright from Carrs.
I made the tie bars from narrow fibre glass copper clad strip with a hole for the servo control and two holes for brass pins which are pushed up fron below and bent over and soldered to the inside faces of the point blades with the pins sitting in the web of the rail.
It would be a shame to give up and use fixed formation track as you will never achieve the flowing trackwork that you originaly designed.
I hope this is of some help to you and if I have got things wrong I apologise in advance.
Here's hoping you don't give up just yet. ..........................John
Thanks John, The Antex soldering station is actually 50w but looking back at things the past week I think I might not have been putting enough solder on as I was trying to keep things looking super neat and tidy. I think I need to change to multicore wire too as the single core seems to be prone to breaking.
Did you mount your copperclad tiebars horizontal or vertical? I have done mine vertical with brass wire looped around like you suggested and I soldered on a tiny bit of brass tube for the servo point motor (which snapped off on my first try at making it work). I will make sure I use some good leaded solder for the rest!
After having a break for a few days I am tempted to install that point again and test it a little as it's only the making of the blades and tiebar that I am currently struggling with (one of which can be purchased ready made)
Many thanks
Michael
My tie bars were horizintal and drilled with three holes. The centre one for the operating wire. The two outer ones for the brass pins which are inserted from below and bent at right angles to be soldered to the point blades along the inside web of the rail. This is the methid used by professional track builder Norman Solomon as featured on BRM Right Track 10 DVD Building Terrific Trackwork. Sadly now unavailable.
Don't forget the Carrs Red liquid flux it really does make the solder flow a treat! And just needs a clean up with soapy water at the end to remove any residue. ................John
Thanks John,
I might give the horizontal way a go if I can't get on with the vertical method as it would solve most of my current issues. Cheers
Well how best to help you?. The first thing I would say is that this is not meant to be test of your persistence, but fun. From listening to you the thing you most want to achieve is the branch line layout. The type of track you use is a means to an end, even though that will affect the eventual design because of what is and is not available with ready made track. Will a bit more head-scratching with the design (and any compromises you need to make from the current design to get it all to work) be more or less bothersome than perfecting building the track by hand. I tend to agree with you that building something smaller where you can perfect the skills might be a better way to go with hand built track. One thought which did occur is whether you have a local model railway club which has members who build their own track? Joining that might provide the practical help and advice that will get you over the present problems. I am not sure I have helped much here looking back only given you yet more to think about! Stephen
Thanks Stephen, I did join a club once but everyone was busy doing their own thing all the time and it got boring. I have made about 5 odd points now and I have learnt alot but mine are far from perfect. I think it's the culmination of many things going wrong that has made me a little fed up. I very rarely give up on anything but I think this one has me beaten for now. At least with peco I could at least get track down quickly and get to run trains and play about with scenics alot more. I had a quick look at an idea and it might work, might not hurt to buy a couple of points and track and see what I can do for the station area and goods yard, the rest is easy as I don't really want to change everything again!
Cheers, Michael
Hi Michael , I'd have given up ages ago LOL . You have got to carry on now for at least one circuit of track work , be good to see some running on it ......Peter
Unfortunately that would involve making 3 more points and me having no hair left by the end of it lol! I have learnt alot from doing all that which will serve me well for a smaller layout. I think with a large layout RTR might be slightly better for me. Cheers
Just a short note.dropper wires, use a good flux and solder remember the solder must flow. The turn outs are fragile thus slow motion motors are the key. don't forget the frog wire. Remember this is a hobby. Start with a loop this will enthuse you.
Do you need home made track for a layout at home, again this is a hobby. Peco have been making track and turnouts for years.
A bad workman blames his tools.Take you time and cut your cloth to your needs.
Lastly practice with your soldering, note the slight colour change when the solder fuses and then solidifies
Thanks Paul,. I have been making them to a slightly narrower gauge to help the running through the curves. I think my soldering issue was just not using enough solder and trying to keep it too neat. Everywhere else where I've used more has stuck solid. I will be using slow motion point motors for my layout as I prefer them to solonoids. I think it might be easier to use peco as I could get a loop working pretty quickly and start enjoying things a little more. I just need to work out a track plan that allows for Pecos straight points.
Cheers, Michael
I think you have " hit the wall " as they say. You've set yourself a big task, and in every project there comes that sinking feeling when things start to go wrong.
You have achieved a lot there and that's a credit to you.
My advice for what it's worth is to take a step back for a while, tidy everything up and then start again.
You could keep all the track you have done, use Peco for the rest of the plain track and just do the points handbuilt.
Don't loose heart, it will all be worth it. 😉 Keith
Thanks Keith, I think I should have done the handbuilt as a smaller layout to be honest and stuck with peco for the large layout. I am having a little break from it now and it might all change to peco but it won't be the end of handbuilt track for me either way.
Cheers, Michael
Michael Henfrey Whatever you do, I'm sure it will be good! 😊 Keith
Stick with it Michael, Rome wasn't built in a day as they say and what you've accomplished so far is outstanding, an amazing achievement.
Get a pen and paper and revisit that turnout, analyse it and write down everything that you know is wrong, use it to experiment with till you are happy you have it all worked out ready to build the next one.
You are pretty much the only person I've seen building their own track and turnouts from scratch, and believe me when I say that we are all behind you :0)
Thanks Mark, I am working on making on some improvements to the point and figuring out the best method for a tie bar. I don't think it requires too much change to make it perfect. I have actually decided to stick at it but build it at a nice steady pace rather than trying to do everything quickly and getting frustrated.
Cheers, Michael
It’s an amazing thing building your own track. I would solder to the bottom of the fishplates, but points are very complex to get right. So... I personally would use peco, then perhaps use the self built track on a smaller layout at another time. My ethos in railway model is to get trains running ASAP, to prevent you loosing interest. Nothing worse than problem after problem. Keep life as simple as you can.
The choice has got to be yours at the end of the day.
Thanks John, That is what I am leaning towards to be honest. I think as much as handbuilt track would be nice I probably shouldn't have started with a large project! I've been wanting to work on scenics for ages and the track has held me back so it might be better to switch and then I can enjoy the hobby a little more. Cheers, Michael
Michael Henfrey well... to say you shouldnt hv done it..... You would have regretted not making your own track, so Id treat it as a learning curve and you can still do it when you are ready. I think of it as PECO have already done the hard work, so you could learn how they do things and then adapt the ideas when you return to your own built track.
Aye very true! I have learnt alot from what I have done which will serve me well for doing something smaller. Once I have this layout going well I can take my time to improve on making track with regular breaks of being able to run trains. Cheers
Hi Michael
It does look superb but if your experiencing more pain than pleasure Id knock it on the head and try peco. You can come back to the self build stuff later.
Cheers Paul
Thanks Paul, It does indeed look great, but like you say it's probably best to come back to it later and just run with peco for now. Cheers
I think I echo a few others who say do what you think is best! I can see the challenges. It's also nice to know that peco have upped their game and are producing proper sleeper spaced track in bullhead. I wish they'd do the same with flat bottom. I've started on my re spacing now - 2 lengths down as I type! But God is it a challenge. I've probably done the worse part first (Laira side) that's on a slight curve and is banked as it is in reality!. No easy feat. I'll be glad when I get to the station side, that's all flat and a full mixture of every rail and sleeper..
Thanks Tim, I do love a good challenge but when it beats you down time and time again it becomes less fun. There is certainly things I would do a little different next time that might make things a little better but the switch blades and tie bars are crucial to making it run perfectly and I can't seem to get them to work very well. Have you thought about making a little jig for your spacing? I have seen one before that is like a comb but made in card so that sets your sleeper spacing and works on corners etc, quicker than measuring out each sleeper
Cheers, Michael
Michael Henfrey. It does wear you down and I was getting frustrated getting the track deck right. I took me about 2 months of chopping and changing because I cut the ply to where I'd thought the track would be rather than lay the track out on the sheet and mark out before cutting.. schoolboy error but then I've never built one to the style or let alone the sheer size.. I almost gave up! So just had a break from it and it'll all came together finally (sound advice from Dave Watson).. I've built a spacing tool from balsa wood but it's still fiddly as I've got to still glue each sleeper down before moving the jig to the next section.. I'm using mitre glue that comes with a spray activator so it sets the glue as soon as you spray it.. very useful.
Buy enough Peco track to get a single loop in and running... Take a few moments to sit and watch a train running round and see how the mojo is after that. Would you prefer to carry on getting the scratch built track work right or would you be happy to compromise on the track work right now and stick with Peco. Then later on once you've improved on building the points and track start replacing it... The decision is yours... but as others of said. It is a hobby and should be enjoyable and fun at the end of the day! ;-)
Thanks, Yeah I do think that the enjoyment will return when something can run around. I do love the handbuilt trackwork but there's alot to do and I do wonder if I should have just done that on a small shelf type layout and left the large one for RTR track. I do have some ideas if I do switch to peco that will change the station area slightly but I need to look into it all better first.
Cheers, Michael
Your track is really great! It would be a shame to have it torn down. It seems like your only problem is the soldering. Soldering looks easy but the results won't be satisfactory if it is done incorrectly.
Make sure your soldering iron has the right temperature. If soldering takes much longer than 5 seconds your soldering iron is too cold or your tip is too thin. I had good results at soldering rail without melting my plastic sleepers with a setting of 400°C. Also using solder with lead (e.g. Sn62Pb36Ag2) with a flux core is much easier to use than lead-free solder. Lead is a health hazard but if you avoid ingestion, wash your hands afterwards and clean the workplace, it is safe to use. Also sanding the metal before soldering can help if it is oxidised.
Thanks, I have had a little break from it so I will try to continue, I think I was just having a few bad days. I will try as you suggested and hopefully I shouldn't have any more issues.
Thanks, Michael
for your droppers try multi strand wire as solid core wire is easier to break
Aye I have been thinking about that. I would have used 7/0.2 wire but it has a amp rating of 1.4 but my black label A4 can spike upto 1.6 amps. The larger 16/0.2 wire is a little too big for soldering onto bullhead track to be honest
maybe instead of just one wire do 2 instead so the power can be split up if needed for the droppers in to the bus wire
Thanks, that is a good idea! I think I will give that a try
don't know if it will work but it should give you double the power for the track just have them like 10cm apart from each other so you don't have t many solder joins close together
stick with what it is you enjoy doing but don't rip up - that is giving up!
I would save it towards a smaller simpler shelf type layout, maybe use the simpler peco bullhead way for the bigger layout so I can get on and enjoy it and then work on a smaller shunting puzzle type layout later with handbuilt track and improve my skills.
Cheers, Michael
I'm not sure how you managed to stay on track for so long (Excuse the pun) personally I'd of given up a long time ago. I'm glad I do not have to do this on your behalf as I'm not a fan of Peco I personally think is a very poorly manufactured track, but I'm not building British layout so it doesn't affect me. I use Fleischmann track but that does not look natural either but it's solid and easy for me to work with. So you have to choose what's best for you to manage and work with the get the best results you can which make you feel like you have achieved what you personally want from your layout. So good luck with whatever you choope mate.
Thanks Dave, I wish peco made their new bullhead points to a more prototypical size and fixed the sleepers on the points too. Although at least the spacing and the look of the newer track does look much better for us 00 modellers. If I did switch to peco it would be very easy for me to do the trackwork (but bloody expensive too!) But at least I could start enjoying the layout a little. Cheers, Michael
Turnouts on a bend, not a good idea only suitable for slow moving trains. Look at professional layouts most will avoid these potential problems.
True with mass produced commercial points, not so with hand built ones.
More heat. Not so easy to pictch out a point that you have built as it is when you buy them all made up and they get messed up Rob.
Thanks Rob, I've added plenty of heat but maybe not enough of the right kind of solder, anyway I'm a little fed up of it all now to be honest. Cheers
Michael Henfrey Like Stephen said, it is supposed to be fun. If it isn’t, try something different. Don’t keep bashing your head against the same wall, do something different. Whatever metal the rail is made from it may not solder well.