Ep 27: John Little on the REAL fights of Bruce Lee
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2023
- John Little joins me to discuss Bruce Lee's REAL fights. Was he just an actor, or could he fight for real? We discuss John's new book, Wrath of the Dragon: The real fights of Bruce Lee, available at all good booksellers now!
www.thetaichinotebook.com
It's A Great Book! I'm Very Proud I Met And Trained With Some Of Bruce Lee's Friends & Student's Who Trained Under Him!
Well done :)! Thx for uploading this.
A couple things more which are maybe interesting for some people. Since guys like Gene LeBell, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis etc. were always good in talk Lee down, now i point some things out about them which a rarely mentioned:
1) Something in general about Point Karate (not about Lee, only in general). Here are some fight records compared to professional Boxers and Muay Thai fighters:
Sam Langford (Boxer): 314 fights
Saenchai (Muay Thai): 378 fights
Skipper Mullins (Point Karate): 1115 fights
I am not absolute sure, but i think Langford and Saenchai are among the fighters with the most bouts across all full contact combat sports. I couldnt find anyone in Boxing or Muay Thai with 400 bouts and more.
This should underline how "dangerous" Point Karate is compared to Boxing or Muay Thai. Langford and Saenchai togehter had 692 fights. Mullin's doesnt double that, but over 1100 fights just shows how much damage your body takes in Point Karate.
World Champion in Point Karate doesnt make someone a tough guy, a skilled guy in a certain skill contest yes, but not tough or relevant to full contact combat sport or street fights (only adressed to the milenium kids on YT who always claim "Chuck Norris was a real fighter").
Kenpo Karate founder Ed Parker Senior’s record as „fighter“ is 0-0-0. Still he is regarded a martial arts legend, great MA Instructor, and very effective street fighter. Not one of the Point Karate Champions from back in the day ever challenged his status or challenged him.
Parker Sr. about Point Karate:
„Tournament Karate is not full contact Karate. The idea is to execute a Karate technique with full control. You win matches by outscoring your opponent, not by killing them.“
This should underline the Point Karate Champions like Norris, Moore etc. never executed their strikes with full power, and the goal was to outscore the opponent, not by hurting them. And it underlines Point Karate wasn’t full contact, so Norris etc. were never full contact fighters.
Take a look at (full) professional Soccer player Pelé (1940-2022), who was born the same year as Norris and Lee. During the 1960s he was badly injured many times and had to take longer breaks to recover. Back in the day yellow and red cards didn’t exist, and you could attack opponents very hard. Pelé suffered many leg injuries through heavy kicks to his legs. Compare his injury list with Point Karate Fighters. Pelé was much more injured as them, even if he was a Soccer player and not a combat sport fighter.
2) Were Lewis etc. real World Champoins in Kickboxing or not?
A couple weeks ago a new video was uploaded about former Pro Boxer Randall "Tex" Cobb. He fought George Foreman once but also Earnie Shavers.
In the beginning of the clip, the narrator says Cobb won 1980 the first world tournament in kickboxing.
How could Lewis, Bill Wallace etc. be World Champions in Kickboxing in the 1970s when the first real world tournament in Kickboxing was held in 1980?
So if this is true (i cant check it out), then even American Kickboxers like Lewis, Wallace etc. were never real World Champions. At least not in the 70s when they had their prime.
3) Were Point Karte World Champions really world champions?
Bill Wallace to John Little: "Back in those days, you could go to Chicago, fighting three guys from Chicago, and be crowned as world champion."
So it seems these "World Championships" werent real World Championships.
4) Bob Wall
Bob Wall (RiP!) claimed him and Lee were best friends:
Fact is Lee only spoke once about Wall, and it was negative. He was asked by someone why he hires that guy (Wall) always? And he said: "Because he gets hit so damn good."
Not just Matt Polly but also former Lee histotrian George Tan pointed that out, i mean ppl said Lee never liked Wall so much. But Wall made a career claiming he was Lee's close friend.
And in a video podcast in 2018 he even claimed what Lee would do in the late 60s, he himself and LeBell already did in the early 60s.
4) Gene LeBell
Yes we know what a fish Seagal is, and yes we know he lied many times, but there were indeed some people who wanted to find out if LeBell actually has a black belt in the original japanese Jūdō.
They checked out any Kōdōkan, Nippon Budōkan, Judokai etc. and couldnt find one black belt. The Kōdōkan is the headquater of the world wide Jūdō community, and any black belt is listed there.
LeBells Wiki article list him as:
10th degree red belt in Judo
9th degree black belt in Jujutsu
10th degree black belt in Kyokushin Budokai
Kyokoshin Budokai is the style which was founded by dutch Jon Bluming.
I have no doubts LeBells 10th degree in Kyokushin Budokai is legit, and i dont know if his 9th degree black belt in Jujitsu is legit.
But is 10th degree red belt (highest rank) in Jūdō is very sceptical!
Notice:
Jūdō = the original japanese writing when romanized to western alphabet, founded by JIgoro Kano
Judo = western version, but not the original style which was founded by Kano.
So it can be LeBell only has a 10th degree red belt in american Judo, but not in the original art from Japan named Jūdō.
And this would be very cheap since his nickname was Judo Gene LeBell. It would be a total gag if he never studied Jūdō but called himself Judo Gene.
But since he told so many stories from which many are not true, i woudnt be surprised.
Go here on YT for Steven Seagal Bruce Lee Haters and you gonna find a video when Steven talks about Tarantino and LeBell. And he pointed out LeBell made his entire career in lying about who he beat up.
Buttom line: These guys talked negative about Lee from time to time. No problem. But as you see, they arent flawless too.
Still these point fighters were out there going against other fighters throwing punches and kicks at a high level.
As far as Ed Parker not being challenged...he was a well known instructor and hosted a prestigious tournament he wasnt a fighter and never claimed to be one, why would anyone challenge him? Ed Parkers quote about killing people with Karate makes him sound like a non fighter...once full contact became real it showed how fake these old school masters really were.
@@cuzz63 Parker Sr grew up in the streets and knew how to defend himself, and not just in a rule set. To call him a non (street) fighter is so ridicolous, but it shows me what kind of guy you are.
And pls stop try to protect these POint Karate clowns. A guy like Lenny McLean would have killed them all inside a minute in a street fight. Lewis, Norris, Stone, etc. wouldn survive the opening minute against Lenny, he would just smash them to bits, all of them. And Randell "Tex" Cobb would too.
And pro Soccer player Pelé was more injured through leg kicks as the Point Karate guys. That says something!
I know you are a Lee basher through and through, and dont matter what anynone will say or claim, you will always find a way to slice it around. Bruce wasnt invincible, but there had to be someone like Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson etc. who had a good chance to beat him (also in the street), but not Lewis, Norris and these guys.
PS: Joey Orbillo fought Ali and Frazier opponent Jerry Quarry and went the 10 round full distance with him. Orbillo was also interviewd by Little. He couldnt touch Lee once. But it was no problem for him to KO Lewis with a kidney shot, even Joe never denied it.
Fact is: There isnt a single account written 1967 to 1973 that somehow says Lee was afraid of some martial artists from LA, or he lost to someone, or what ever. That all came up much later.
And of course you, as a huge protector and fan of Joe Lewis, dont even reply about what i said about the "World Champions".
The documentary about Randall "Tex" Cobb states in the opening seconds: "Cobb won the first world kickboxing tournament in 1980."
The narrator or commentator is Navy Seal Jocko Willink (BJJ expert). So how could Lewis, Wallace and these guys be World Champion in Kickboxing in the 1970s, when the first world tournament was held in 1980?
It would be so laughable if they never were real World Champions but made/make claims like they were.
You can find the doc here on UA-cam "The actor who challanged Earnie Shavers." In the first 10 seconds Willink makes that statement.
PS: Cobb was also a Hollywood B actor, but also a pro boxer who fought Shavers and George Foreman.
And Gene LeBells story has also many holes about his degree. The japaenese Kodokan is the world headquarter of Judo. All 10th degree red belts (highest rank) are listed there. Some people from Steven Seagal s camp did a check, and it seems there is no Ivan LeBell, or Gene Lebell, or Ivan Gene LeBell listed.
After this there was no reply from LeBell. Nobody from his camp could prove evidence he is/was a legit 10th degree black belt.
If he really never was a 10th degree red belt in Judo but called himself "Judo Gene LeBell" his whole life, that would be such a laughable joke!
As much a laughalbe joke it would be if Lewis, Wallace etc. were never real World Champions as they claimed, or when it was like Wallace told Little about Point Karate in the 1960s: "You could go to Chicago, fight 3 guys from Chicago, and be become World Champion."
@@chrisbach1533 Ed grew up in Hawaii on a beach...be for real. He never even fought anyone when he came to the mainland. This isnt the old days when people who didnt fight would claim they were street fighters.
Yeah right. Exacltly like the old days when people claimed they were "World Champoins" but werent, or being a 10th degree red belt in Judo but werent.
@@chrisbach1533 pretty much the truth. I am amazed you see that after your other posts. These old school Masters claimed to be too deadly for fighting yet they never killed anyone and when pressed on who they fought they claimed to be street fighters....although Bruce never claimed that.
Great interview! Really enjoyed!
For the readers of the book: Maybe interesting for the one or the other, but i like to mention something about Lee’s punching speed and the timer which John mentions:
„Curious as to the actual speed of Bruce’s punch, Jesse had a friend, Gary Barhnhard, an electronics student, devise a means of testing it. He created an electric timer. He wired one end into a light switch and the other into a cutoff switch attached to the back of a small pad. The timer started the instant the light was turned off. It stopped when somebody hit the pad.
Jesse would kill the the light, and Bruce would hit the target. Jesse and Gary told Bruce to strike the pad from varying distances and, after each hit, they recorded the data from the timer.
From five feet or one and a half meters away, his time was eight one-hundreths of a second (0.08 seconds). From three feet or one meter away, his reaction time was a mere five one-hundreths of a second (0.05 seconds).“
This quote on page 61 of the book leads the reader to believe he could react + punch in 5 and 8 one-hundreths of a second.
But this wasnt the case.
I contacted James DeMile in October 2012, and i did ask him if these times were punching + reaction, or only punching. His reply was:
„It was motion, not reaction. Bruce would punch a pad which had the stop switch inside.“
You can find two video’s on YT when the late Sijo DeMile spoke about it:
A) Bruce Lee: How He Achieved Phenomenal Speed
B) James DeMile Combat Reaction Timer
In the video A you see how this motion timer worked. And that’s the thing they measrued Bruce’s speed. It’s only punching, and not punching + reaction.
When you read the description in John’s WOTD book or how Jesse Glover described it in his book, since they both used the term "reaction", the reader could come to the conclusion they used a reaction timer like shown in video B, which shows reaction + punching.
Great interview, thanks guys! I'm reading John's book now!
I had that book that Bruce never had published when he was alive. It complements nicely the books, "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" and "Tao of Jeet June Do". Can't remember the name of it.
Skip to 9:23 . Will save you guys time .
Great book. I got my kindle copy. Im glad he wrote.
Bruce Lee's Martial Art Is A VEry Good Thing To Study. Nobody Can Be Bruce Lee, But Bruce Lee, But I Studied His Martial Arts Because I Want To Know How To Really Fight, Know An Art That Could Hurt. Somebody Bad & Save My Life To. I've Spapared With Karate Guys, Jujitsu Artist & Boxers! I Know My Training In Bruce Lee's Art Allows Me To Handle Myself In Any Situation I Get Into! So I Fight Using Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do & Wing Chun Do.
Short news: One of the people mentioned in the book, Ryan O'Neal, the long-time boyfrieind of "Charlie's Angels" Farrah Fawcett, died yesterday (Dec 8th, 2023) at the age of 82.
Bruce's real fights the fights every conflict guys had in their life on the street and it's nothing out of ordinary. This man was first guy who applied different elements in kung fu genre and became a superstar in it. That's why we all respect this guy and it doesnt matter whether he fought or not. His early death made him icon in each culture of the world.
Uhh...NO, his death did not make him famous, sorry. When James Dean died it did indeed add further to his legend of already established fame, and other examples are simular. When Bruce Lee died he was still a nobody to the world. So NO, dying didn't make him famous because that only works when you're first established in the world as famous and then that already established fame is augmented by your death. But Bruce Lee was never famous while he was alive. Bruce Lee died a nobody.
You're silly mistake is that you think Bruce Lee was some famous actor.
But he wasn't.
Lee only did the movie thing in the very last 1.5 years of his life. It was a last second thing to do movies, so it was only 5% of his life where the movie thing existed. And not counting Enter The Dragon (ETD) he only made 3 little movies which were all done in the span of one single year. Although he died a nobody and was never famous while alive, he DID get to taste fifteen minutes of fame in a little tiny corner of the world called Hong Kong. For that span of one year of making the three lil movies he tasted fame on that tiny island, as brief as it was it was something. Only a 1.5 year of fame on that tiny island of Hong Kong then he died. During his death there is no news coverage for a total nobody so nobody cares, not China, not America, not Europe, not even most of Asia. Besides HK, he was a total nobody to the world being buried like everyone else. A month later after his death, they released ETD and it shook the world, it was bigger than Star Wars before there was a Star Wars. ETD was his film debut to the world and it was the film that introduced him to the world.
So yeah, his death did not make a nobody famous. It was the release of ETD that catapulted the world into discovering who he was, learning about who this guy is, engaging with those three lil HK movies, learning he married a white lady, learning he fought this guy, he fought that guy, and fought and beat this black belt etc etc.
Lee is legend and famous because people were curious who was that fighter in ETD and started digging up his life and who he was.
And Lee was never an actor, he certainly excelled at it in ETD and those three lil movies, but he was not a man who was pursuing showbiz at all until showbiz knocked on HIS door. He was not out there doing auditions or knew other actors as colleugues, no he was simply not an actor.
He was a streetfighter of Kowloon city and became experienced in live combat by his gang fighting for the Hong Kong gang that HE was the leader of.
Kato in Green Hornet. He had parts in several shows on tv, he made many movies as a kid in Hong Kong, became a huge star in Asia. He already had some fame when he died, and ETD catapulted him into superstardom.
Da Inosanto has said... that he saw a few encounters where he toyed with his opponents, other martial artists. I dont know if it is mentioned in this book
( I am NOT talking about his road rage incidents_)
Yeah, Dan has mentioned how people would walk into-I'm assuming the L.A. school-on a sometimes weekly basis with a challenge, some not looking to spar so much as put Bruce in the hospital. From what I've read he had two modes in these situations: toy with you if you didn't pose a threat, or finger jab and/or groin kick you if you did.
Poderia traduzir para o português
Bruce Lee is King
I honestly think John Little should be not the Joe Rogan podcast.
The Bruce Lee Wong Jack Man fight was a boring draw according to one of the 11 witnesses to the fight. He wrote a book about it "Showdown in Oakland." Why would he lie? He didn't
Lee fought Jack Man 1964. You erroneously stated he fought Lee a few months before he died. What else do you have wrong?
Bruce lee beat joe Lewis in a sparr according too herb Jackson how witnessed it and did so very easily.Louis Delgado also how has said on record he could not get near Bruce lee , Delgado beat mr Norris also .gene lebell also told lies about teaching Bruce judo for over a year lies .as John little had all of Bruce’s day time diary’s and there was not one be mention of gene lebell yet there was all the karate champions how use too take lessons off Bruce and too all the Chuck Norris fans yes he was a student of Bruce lee. And he got lucky with his career as joe Lewis turned down the part of colt in the way of the dragon .very lucky man I most say .if he didn’t get this role he would just have been a normal guy nobody knows about .joe Lewis regretted not taking the role .Chuck was very stuff looking n all his movies and for him too say he was the champ and Bruce was just a actor.for a guy that was just a actor according to mr Norris why was he and all the best karate men of that generation coming too Bruce lee for lessons . Bruce lee was the real deal and herb Jackson said Bruce made joe Lewis look very poor Bruce was that good remember joe Lewis was voted the greatest karate fighter of all time .
Don't believe in fairy tales😂😂.. he was too humble to fight with real fighters like joe lewis and beat them. Bruce lee wasnt stupid and self sure to think he'll beat up guys who always fight and perform while he is making movies.. Joe lewis rejected bruce s offer to play a bad guy in movie return the dragon because he had to fight with bruce and lose a fight. 😂 Then chuck norris was invited to play this character.
@@Nigga4579 you need too do some research before you make comments like that when Bruce started films in Hong Kong in 71 he had not seen joe since he ran him from his door step 69 mate joe was his student and please don’t believe everything you read because it’s well know that Bruce and joe had a falling out well before the movies so do you really think Bruce would have rang joe and asked him too play a role in a film when they had not spoken in over 3 years.do your research.also get that book all the best karate guys back then where Bruce lee’s students some actor lol gave me a break Louis Delgado how beat Chuck Norris has said he could not touch Bruce Lee in sparring Chuck Norris beat joe a few times .listen back in Bruce’s time nobody could touch him he just didn’t believe in tournament fighting. But he did beat all the karate guys in sparring they all became his students. Joe Lewis Bob wall Chuck Norris Louis Delgado mile stone the most famous of the men with Bruce also the 7 foot 3 basketball player also beat joe in a sparr what about that .I live in a world where I do my research before I make a comment. Bruce lee was a martial artist and film star secondly
Modern UFC fighters don’t fight 20 mins non stop - so Bruce vs Wong went 20 mins !!!
Your book is not accurate
boring stuff now
Very interesting comment