I used to work for a company (Packard Hell) with a lot of American people who worked as managers and CEOs. It was so fun to see them be surprised when during meetings people would disagree with them.
Your videos have really made me appreciate The Netherlands more. I think that when you have lived in the same country your whole life, you tend to take some things for granted. I have never thought about a lot of subjects you discuss in your videos, but now I see my beautiful country in a different way. Thank you Joey!
Absolutely agree! I come from Vietnam, an Asian country so the workplace hierarchy is even more profound than in America. When I started working in the Netherlands I was at a complete lost at first because I didn't know what to do, I was so used to the passive way of thinking, to being told what to do. But I love how I can always feel comfortable with colleagues and managers, and that my ideas matter even though I am just a fresh graduate with little experience. For me, the Dutch working culture is definitely one of the best out there.
This is so true. I'm literally a 16 year old working in a supermarket, but sometimes I work with the manager (because I work Tuesday afternoon when there's barely anyone) and he tells me about the plan for the next weeks, where he'll put all the specials, and he really listens to me if I say I don't like something or have any ideas to make it better.
This social structure starts in Elementary school, I noticed this when I studied abroad. There were four more Dutch people in my class the other 40 people were from Belgium. Dutch people tend to interrupt the teacher when they don't understand something. This made me think about my elementary school where teachers encouraged this so the students get a better understanding of the subject. Sometimes the lessons were just discussions between the students and the teacher about the topic because some things in class didn't make any sense to the class. I think it's in engrained in our culture to question everything, to help make it better.
At high school we sometimes had geography before our history lessons. A couple of times, when during geography we were taught the names of parts of the world during the Iron Curtain or the situation during The Berlin Wall, and came into his classroom talking about that subject he sometimes asked if we wanted to know more about that subject history-wise. When my class agreed (we usually had a lesson of 90 minutes instead of the regular 45) he slammed his book shut and started drawing a reasonably basic map of the situation at hand and started talking about the subject and even though it sometimes was totally outside where we were currently in the book, he totally ignored it and we had a very, very interesting lesson.
My old German teacher started his first class with a German sesame street song to encourage us to ask questions. Wer, Wie, was Der, die, das Wieso, weshalb, warum? Wer nicht fragt bleibt dumm. Ignoring people's ideas or not asking anyone will make you none the wiser.
As someone who has cleaned in different places, I have to say it almost freaked me out how nice people treated me in a couple of office buildings in the Netherlands. Usually the amo is to 'be quiet and don't disturb while working'/'you're not there', and in the Netherlands people usually come up and talk a little, they were genuine curious how I was, and I saw them just for a couple of minutes per day while I was working. I once even had an office manager who went out of his way that everyone had a Christmas present (I really hadn't expected a Christmas present from work), and when I had to leave I got flowers and farewell gifts as a thank you for my time working there. I really hadn't worked there for long, but it was the most genuine nice work environment I ever had.
@ 1973stefant, The fact that you "learned" that a cleaning person is JUST AS IMPORTANT as a CEO is absolutely ridiculous and shows how you haven't learned anything about the world at all.
Jose Carreras Well Jose, it actually turns out how wrong you were with your statement and how little insightful in how things work in this world!!! Little did you know that 1973stefant was actually the one keeping the CEO's and your dumbass Corona-free, now did you? Turns out that cleaners are actually way more important than the CEO's!!! Don't you think you owe him your gratitude, now that we all know that if it weren't for him and all the other cleaners, you might not have been here anymore?!!! 😡🤐💩
@@floatingchimney That's the most ridiculous comment ever, a company can run without a CEO, a CEO cannot run a company without employees, you should always respect your employees whether it is a cleaner or not, all of them have a function within a company and a good company thrives on collaboration and each performing their function well, a company with crumble when parts are not functioning well.
Actually, as a small business owner myself, I’m smart enough to realize that without my coworkers, I wouldn’t have a business, period. My people are my eyes, ears, hands and feet. Without them nothing gets done, or nothing gets done right. If tomorrow they collectively decide to quit and start for themselves, then tomorrow is the day I’m out of business. As others already commented, the American way would be impossible to implement in a Western European mentality/society.
Even the way you referred to others stands out as different than how most in the US would, in a positive way. After stating that you are a small business owner, you referred to others as your coworkers. That doesn't really happen in the US. Here, they would be your employees, your subordinates. So the mere act of calling them coworkers shows that even though you own the business, you consider them to be at least somewhat equal to and not 'beneath' you. If more business owners and managers had that mindset, it would feel like a massive breath of fresh air here.
@@Alazair Funny, even in Germany at my company (~ 6000 employees) our CEO and managment may talk about employees in an interview, but adressing us directly (for example at the council company meeting or annual works council meeting with the entire board) as coworkers. And at this meeting they go around and shake hands with 31 people;)
@@Alazair God i have yelled at my boss who also works as a server at the restaurant so many times. feel like i would be out the first day in the us if i did that there. Just so you know yelling as in loudly telling him to write verything on a ticket not 90% and tell me the rest. Not gonne remember all 20 tickets that way. After working there for 10 years he still doest this and then blames us.
Dutch people are really future oriented. Behavior like planning, investing in the future and delaying gratification is rewarded highly in our culture. Encouraging rewards. "if I don't get rewarded or even acknowledged for doing it, I won't do it. No. Way!"
Yes this is kinda a problem btw, as a teacher i see this in the children too. And i love the way they speak up, but they have to do it with arguments. And sometimes the just dont feel like doing it, but life aint al sugercanes and lollypops. so we will have to be aware that not everything is acknowledged. That being said, i do think you have to get acknowledge for doing great work. But some people like to be acknowledge for everything they do nowadays. *bit exaggerated: but if you can wipe your own but, you wont get an applause sir.. thats not how life works :) *just saying some people do think they get rewarded for everything, its said that the upcoming generation seems to be like that luckily not everyone ofcourse
Might be because I’m Dutch, but why the frick would you wanna hire a yes-man? You hire people BECAUSE they bring input, otherwise they did their education for nothing and they’re worthless as employee... It’s basic valuing employees and their knowledge and expertise..
I think an important part of this is taught in school. In Dutch schools if you don't understand something you ask your teacher, if you don't agree with something you tell them and if you do so in a respective manner they will listen and help you understand or sometimes even help find a way to work with you better. In American tv the students always get detention for small stuff where in the Netherlands you only really get detention in highschool if you do something really bad or if you're late a lot. In Dutch elementary school detention is near nonexistent, the teacher will rather help solve a problem than punish a student and if there is punishment it's usually in the form of writing lines or not getting to play. This ensures that you learn to talk to your teachers instead of blindly following them. There's also the way other school faculty is treated. In Dutch high school (at least my high school) everyone liked and respected the janitor, he was one of the most useful people in the school so everyone respected him. This tyoe of respect stays with you when you grow up and get a job, it teaches you to respect a person not s position
I remember that the janitor on my high school was way more respected and revered than most teachers. When you heard the sound of the janitors keychain coming through to hallway, everyone started behaving properly. While it was a sport to annoy the teachers (some not all, some were cool) as much as you could get away with.
This lack of hierarchy also goes for society at large. Look at how the royals interact with the people, or the president (currently Mark Rutte). When they have conversations with citizens, the tone and language will be that of two people talking in the supermarket.
Whenever I conduct an interview with a prospective employee I make minor yet obvious mistakes when explaining some processes, because I want to see the response. If you can't disagree with me you're really not worth hiring.
I think that Dutch people are really learning that at an early age. I am 16 and at school we are taught to have discussions with our teachers, and interrupt them if we don't understand something. Also if something is unclear, like a schedule or something, we can just go to the department leader and ask them. I also often have to fill in forms about how I feel about things at school, like a big group assignment. They look at our opinions and might change things for the class that has to do the assignment next year. We do have to be polite to our teachers, but we also feel like we are equal and our opinions matter.
Someone mentioned the "poldermodel" which is the basis for a lot of dutch culture. It means that back when the dutch created the extra land they needed you could never just do that on your own, if you drain your patch of land you may flood your neighbours. So right from the start you had to work together for the mutual benefit of everyone. That has carried through time into a very egalitarian society where we are not that appreciative of people trying to be better than everyone else. So that guy making a lot of money is not admired for building a giant castle and having golden toiletseats. It just looks like showing off something that doesn't matter. Also we don't like it when our neighbours can't live a decent life. In the U.S if you don't have a job you can easily loose your house and end up on the street so that guy on the lowest rung of the job hierarchy can't just get up and leave if they don't get paid well enough and they are desperate not to get fired. Even much higher up they still have the same problem. So through time people in the U.S have been almost brainwashed into thinking more power and money is so much better that they assign virtue to those people , they admire them and give them status normally reserved for royalty and other bluebloods. Yes Sir, Thank you Sir! Right away Sir! We don't admire even our king or minister president the way you do someone who is simply rich. Money doesn't mean much to us, we focus on life fulfillment. Do you have the job that makes you feel good about yourself. Does your date mesh well with your personality. Without the focus on the life or death struggle for money you are far more free to be yourself and while different company cultures will differ, a ceo is just as dutch as the employees. They probably didn't come from more money and they probably hate non genuine compliments as it's close to lying and the dutch hate lying. In countries around us, Belgium and Germany they also don't have our work culture or society culture so you are right, it's very dutch.
My boss never wants me to call him boss, just colleagues. If he doesn't understand something, he calls one of us for help and vise versa. That is a really nice way to work!
Why don't you write a book about these items? It's uplifting for us (Dutch people) and perhaps an eye-opener for American people... American culture also has good aspects, of course. Generally spoken and drawing a conclusion from what you are telling us I've the impression that we are less, as we call it, 'zwart-wit': our opinion is perhaps a bit more balanced. I'm happy you found a real home in the Netherlands.
Wages for CEOs at Dutch public companies are capped at a certain amount. This is called the Balkenende norm. It means CEOs are not allowed to earn more than 130% of the Prime Ministers income (Mr. Balkenende at the time). The thought behind it is that the job of the PM is considered one of the hardest and therefore it is not socially just for someone else to make more money in business. The amount includes reneral wages, bonusses, extra income and the money received if ones contract is terminated. That way we keep the balance :)
LoI, I literally had a brainstorming session with my manager this week to discuss what is good about the process and what needs to be improved or even discarded.
I'm Dutch and work for an American company. Many of my colleagues try to butter up the boss, as described in this video. It makes me cringe! Quite frankly, I don't understand how anybody can stand it; employees and bosses alike. It's so phony.
Its ridiculous to pay CEO salaries in the millions. Such large differences in pay lead to extreme differences between rich and poor and support classism, things which are really harmful to society.
Your right on the money with this one, when I was working in the States, they couldn't handle me speaking my mind, or making clear to them that no one is above me, I always made it clear to them that you ask me to do something and 9 out of 10 times there would not be a problem, the moment someone thought they where above me and thought that they could order me around, I made it very clear right away that I was not part of that imaginary world that they live in. got me fired a couple of times but then again I made sure to be in a position to where I could be working somewhere else within days, here in the Holland there are allot of SMALLER companies that do work in the way that you where talking about, bigger companies generally work more like the American way, which has gotten me into trouble also on a few occasions. I work for a small security company here and I have direct access to the CEO, I can walk into his office and sit down and have a talk about stuff or just drop by and BS for a while and I'm not a number there, he knows me, he knows how I react to things, and stuff that I am or am not willing to do. obviously when I get loaned out to a bigger company and you got some snot nose brown noser thinking that he is above me trying to give me orders and a degrading way and I put him/her in there place it causes issues but to be honest i do get a kick out of putting people like that in there place
yup, love this country! I work in a hospital, there is less and less hierarchy (especially with younger docters) just first names and respecting everyones opinions. Love it! You are amazing btw!
Hi i am from Taiwan and recently planning to go to work in the Netherlands. and surprisingly i found the hierarchy in US fits the same with Asian society. thanks for sharing.
Geert Hofstede (Professor emeritus Organizational psychology, Maastricht University). 'Cultural dimensions theory'. Books: 'Culture's consequences'. (scientific edition) and 'Cultures and organizations: software of the mind'. (popularized edition), in het Nederlands: 'Allemaal andersdenkenden: omgaan met cultuurverschillen'. On UA-cam: (Geert) Hofstede (& Culture / Cultural dimensions / National cultures etc.). Hofstede distinguishes 6 dimensions of national cultures: 1. Power distance (high vs low), 2. Individualism vs Collectivism, 3. Uncertainty avoidance (high vs low), 4. Masculinity vs Femininity, 5. Orientation (long term vs short term), 6. Indulgence vs restraint (gratification of needs).
Mention at the same time what the average workers in the US earns, then you might understand how it's possible that a ceo makes those amounts of money....furthermore the way people in The Netherlands are used to be included in their worksituation is called a "poldermodel", basically meaning that you can contribute in talks to advance the way an organisation is moving forward.....
Having experienced Dutch, French, Belgian, American and German working culture a bit. Through doing (welding) projects either in those countries or "under" management from those. And even working directly for a large American company. I found that the Dutch way of doing things in that matter works best long term. Informal. Getting feedback sometimes brutaly direct but honest is very healthy for the organisation. As my first emoyer put it in our very first talk. I am not looking for someone below me. I am looking for someone beside me.
Not only compared to the US. In the 80s I worked as a student in Australia as an apprentice in an architects office. On day one the architect said that in this office was not run hierarchical. First one of my colleagues and after a couple of days the boss told me that it was not necessary to really question and discuss everything and just do what I was told. I remembered him on what he said the first day and with a big smile he said "that is just what I mean!" We became friends and I worked over there an other couple of months after my internship and we met a couple of times when he came over to Europe. Great video!
I have a season job at a playground annex climbingparcours and it is just like you described It. My boss also asks for our opinion about things and appriciates it when you are being totally honest
I work for a production company and there is hierarchy, that also means there is potential to grow in the company upwards or specialize in, branche out, you start almost generic and how longer you work for the company how more specialist you can be come.
Completely true~ I’m at a company now that works in security and safety, and they have a sort of ladder? (Promotion wise) but even now when my class is graduating college with this company, our direct boss and his operational manager (prtty high up) were just like “yeh let’s all go for drinks when you all passed the end exam” even though some of the members on their team I’d never see outside suit and tie while we lil students are in uniform, and still everyone shouts, curses, and nicknames towards each other when we see them during smoke breaks and meetings
What might be interesting to know is that in corporate society, we actually have laws in the netherlands that prevent earning a salary above a certain amount. We call it the balkenende norm, and it's basically a rule that states no one can earn more than the prime minister. The prime minister's job is one of the most complex jobs in the country, so it seems reasonable that that would be a margin, but it also literally puts a limit on greed. It's one of the reasons the american system seems so baffling to us.
I never realised The Netherlands are this different from America because we’re taught in school that the Western world is influenced by America so its kinda the opposite
An American Facebookfriend was pretty weirded out to see people in The Netherlands walk around with sweaters saying "F.D.N.Y." on them, or "N.Y." In much the same way he did not understand how our national (public) news can be so full of American news, his question was literally something like this "Don't you have like, important stuff in your country happening?"
its also the case with how you do the work. {depends on the work} in the USA it has to go by the book {even for simple tings} while in the EU, if you find a better way/more productive, you are allowed to use that way. even if the product/rsult you produce is exactly the same simply put 100 steps in the USA 99 steps in the EU 10 steps with the way you discovered. what would your boss like better: the 3rd option
Dutch workers are also protected by laws which gives them security in their working rights. So they don't have to fear being laid off just like that. I think that also helps in the relationships between workers and their chefs.
We have hierarcy on a limitid scope. I work in a small software development company. We have: Interns-Programmers-Teamleader-Boss. I'm permitted to say a lot of things, but not everything. Our input is valued, but in the end the boss decides what we do. socially, we're much more equal to eachother.
if you see me with my boss you might even think I am the boss instead... Thats how we do it.. today I told him I didnt like his attitude last week or so.. and he said sorry.. And yes he sure is my boss.. and we appriciate each others work..
I love your video's as a Dutch women! Troughout the years this is al so comon to us Dutchies. I work at a Hospital (Ziekenhuis) where there is the same situation as you managed in this video... but it is only with my colleges and with my manager but not with the Doctors (artsen). They like to think that they are above us because of thier studies and everything and act like that. I hate that idea because without the nurses and medical assistents they could not get everything done.
Hi Joey, I think your comparison is a bit off. The $ 14M figure is the S&P 500 average, so multi-billion dollar companies. The EUR 112K figure is the Netherlands is based on all the businesses in the Netherlands. If you look at a comparable number in the Netherlands, the average CEO of a publicly traded company actually makes around EUR 1,5M. Still a big difference though...
Hey i got a quick question, im curious if there are things you like more in america then the Netherlands (since these videos do praise the Netherlands quite alot) anyway thanks alot for the videos found out about your channel 4 days ago and watched everything allready ^^
What you're saying, Joey, is so true. I used to work for an American company (headquarters in the US, EU branch in the NL) and these differences led to many misunderstandings and even conflicts. The US managers expected the Dutch staff to follow their orders blindly whereas we in the NL always had something to say say back, always some opinion, comment, which irritated the US managers as they rather expected obedience. And vice versa, when the Dutch managers came up with some idea or a rule, they always expected feedback and opinion from the staff but the Americans simply followed without giving it too much thought. We were even told that the instructions must always be clear and straightforward (black or white) for our American colleagues with no room for interpretation etc. so that they could just follow the order as this was how it was expected in the US. Btw love your video's where you compare the 2 countries. Always something interesting to learn (love your usual vlogs as well, always fun). Groetjes.
The company I work for is exactly as you described. Our owner we call him Henk by his first name and our CEO we call her Truus. They both don't think they are on a higher level and we have to do as we are told. It's all a work in progress and we all get a chance to give our input. That is one of the reasons that I love my job.
I think the income discrepancy between the two sorts of CEOs is mostly cultural. "up for grabs? Lemme have it" vs what you noticed about the more spread-out hierarchy over here. There are many exceptions of course, but there's more of an "economy of enough" in the Netherlands perhaps? That way even higher-up people can stay and feel normal (as you mentioned in one of your other videos). I don't think I've ever used anything else than their first name to even the most influential professors at uni. They want you to get involved and educate, salary is optional.
Dutch CEOs earn less but the lowest of employees like the cleaners have a minimum income of like seven to ten euros an hour. giving them a fair wage to live on. its not mush but stil like 1000 to 1300 a month. you will live off benefits from the government but you have work with possibilities for pay rises.
So true. In the US, everyone at work is terrified to lose their jobs. You are easily replaceable. It’s a silent rule to just nod and keep your mouth shut if you want to keep your job or if you want to climb that corporate ladder. Then there’s the backstabbing coworkers also competing for the same promotions. The fear and competition makes it a really stressful work environment. Perhaps the reason it is more relaxed in the Netherlands is because it not so easy to get fired and even if you are fired, your government has got your back. Also people in the USA definitely have bigger bills to pay, such as college loans, car payments, and all kinds of other debts. The Netherlands, not so much. So employers are not too quick to hold people’s jobs over their heads everyday and threaten that they’ll be in the street. I don’t think the people in the Netherlands live and work in fear like the people do in the US. The US is truly something else. I visit the Netherlands often but live in the US, and I have to say when you compare the two countries, the stress levels in the US are through the roof. Love your channel! Just subscribed!
We hate people who think they are above us. I once did cleaning work for a year due to a bad economy. I have the utmost respect for people working in the cleaning bussines.
That is absolutely true. In our company we even have the policy that our office doors are not allowed to be closed to even further promote the "open and welcoming" atmosphere. Anyone from any level is welcome to just walk into the office of the CEO and discuss anything. Financial data is also available to every employee. If you absolutely want a private one-on-one with your supervisor of course you can, but the rule is that everyone is welcome everywhere. I therefore feel just as appreciated as any other manager.
I happen to work for a company that has slightly more hierarchie than most companies in the netherlands, but me and my dutch work experience were placed in a north american work situation and unaware of the customaries i, as an intern, called out the owner and ceo for not paying me what they had promised. Everybody was shocked, i got my way in the end, but everybody was sure i was gonna get fired. It was quite the experience. I love your videos, your observations are very accurate.
The way we treat hierarchy is integrated in every part of the Dutch society. I think it's part of the "doe maar normaal" culture. This graphic gives very good inside in the differences in hierarchy and how we see leadership: hbr.org/resources/images/article_assets/2017/06/R1704D_MEYER_MAPPINGLEADERSHIPCULTURES-1024x1011.png As one of the comments below say, it already starts from a very young age. Dutch children are very much encouraged to have an opinion and to speak up. Many kids on elementary school (at least in the early grades) start the week with a "kringgesprek" (circle or group discussion) where kids are encouraged to tell about what kind of activities they have done in the weekend and what they think about certain subjects. As somebody commented, the difference between Belgian kids is huge, they are more used to a school model where they learn to remain silent and listen to the teacher. In many ways it's great that the hierarchy is not that high in The Netherlands because it gives a lot of people equal chances, but sometimes it has his down sides. Some of my friends work as elementary school teachers, they tell me that a lot of children don't get a lot of discipline at home (because parents are negotiating all the time with their children, even if their children are only 5 years old) and that parents don't have a lot of respect for them as teachers. For instance, if children don't listen and the teacher wants to discipline them, parents often get angry at the teacher and blame them, instead of their own children... but I don't know if that is common in the United States as well.
Here in the Netherlands, the CEO, chief, boss (or whatever) hires you because you are the expert in your field. He pays you for your expertise and knowledge and trusts you. Though, keep in mind; having a flat hierarchy might sound ideal at first but getting higher up and earning significantly more money (inside the same company) can easily be stagnated by that same principle. Speaking from experience here. ( though in engineering world )
This is so nice to hear ! Yes in the Netherlands we are all the same in working space. That means we are allowed to speak. My husband is a boss and he feels himself the same as his employees. And at christmas we all have diner together and then we are all the same sitting at the same table. And to us that is obvious, normal We don't even think about it. And I think it should be like that. And my god what your CEO's earn that is insane !!!. That will never be in Holland.
Thank you for this sincere video comparing American culture to European. A lot of people told me same words, but now I am certain. And your videos are really clear and understandable. Thanks again and good luck!
As a dutch person, with what we consider a hierarchy we still interrupt our bosses, if we know, or think that something is incorrect. we debate decisions right into there faces if we think its unwise. Most of the time that debate either leads to an explanation of why the decision is made in that respect, or a immediate or planned change. What i would rather see than a comparison of income is a comparison of work related happiness.
There is hiërarchie in the netherlands. I work in the healthcare and there is truly an hiërarchie. And im even not talking about the moneydifferences. The higher you stand on the ladder, the more money you get.
Now that we're talking about work, what kind of job do you have. As a seventeen year old i'm in my first year of studying to become a teacher in elementary school
Huh, that average income for ceo's is interesting I would've expected it to be higher, especially because my father made around that much working at IBM, and not as ceo not even close so I suppose it depends on the company as well. Though it might be off set by many of the independent run companies and ceo's in the Netherlands.The company I work at has just like 6 people working there so it's not exactly a 'ceo' type position you think of with large corporations.
We Dutch simply consider every 1 equally important. It's like a clockwork...there is no important gear or less important...if 1 gear breaks down...the clock stops.
This might disappear in the comment section, but I'm curious if there is a different between the US and the Netherlands with how people treat the cleaners/cooks/that sort of jobs at their office? Because in my experience, that can really differ per the country :)
Would it be a good idea to make a video about your transition from the imperial system to the metric system. Im Dutch I honestly don't know how to work with the imperial system. When we were in America my father had to say "above 70°F is warm, below 70°F is cold" so we knew how to dress
Think the CEO max income is also based on something called the Balkenende norm. Not sure now, but in the Netherlands each boss has a maximum he may get or so...
No, CEO's can be paid any amount shareholders are willing to pay them. The 'Balkenende norm' applies to organisations funded by the government. It says that no executive of an organisation funded by the government may be paid more than the Prime-Minister.
Australians have same sort of aay thing of thinking about the way management works we get encouraged to question our boses and treated the same by our bosses
I'm a ceo and the thing is, if you allow your team to get creative then beautiful things happens. When you treat your people right , the do right for you and your course. As simpel as that, iron fist never ever works , people don't get motivation out of that.
I think the bigger the compagny, the bigger the differences between workers. Some very big compagnies treat their workers like numbers, while smaller compagnies will treat you like an actual person :)
I never realized this because I'm used to it, I'm frome here, but it's true. Most companies I've worked for are like this, but also schools, sportsclubs etc. That's where it all starts when you're young. You're no better than everyone else and vice versa. Equal rights, even when you're a kid at school, ask questions, ask why! Foreign friends told me that Dutch people always ask why and that's not always understood abroad. The cleaning lady at the office cleans your desk, the toilet etc, be nice to her and greet her, you're not better and she cleans your toilet for christs sake😊
This is interesting since I normally don't like comparing one culture to a completely different one with different history and what not. I'm working and living in China, and work culture in the US is oftentimes way more appealing than here. Obviously its not the best, but a majority of people within the country do not have the privilege to leave it. Speaking out against it also takes power and numbers too. The thing is, many Americans have been tricked to thinking this is how it's supposed to be and as a result become indifferent to change. Until that indifference changes, than I don't see how it could improve.
Great video but I wish you’d talked more about salary differences between Netherlands and USA. Do you make more or less money in your current job compared to when you were in the States? If less, do you think life expenses in Amsterdam are less than NYC so it actually evens out?
It's also proportions. The Dutch people having gone through oppression and the rise of socialism, we don't really do hiërarchy that well. Our individualism makes us look and compare thinking; is it fair that he earns so much more? A doctor? Sure, he's studied 'twelve' years, works long hours and saves lives. But that guy who made it up to the managing position? Hell no. He may be smart, but he's not that different or more than me. This feeling particularly grows if we think the person doesn't contribute enough, or acts arrogant or abuses the position. The final nail in the coffin would be (coldheartedness) if they fired several people, but accept a bonus for making that year's quota. You'll hear about it in the news when the banks or big companies try to do so. The outcry is that much greater then. There is also the aspect of need. Like does he need to make 12 million euro's a year? After all that salary could feed several families...he could easily live on a million and that still would be more then plenty. This especially comes into play with 'family companies'. (With the smaller ones you might have even a more one on one contact with your boss) thus making the livelyhoods of others more connected. Instead of numbers you attribute faces and stories to those numbers this goes for both the boss aswell as the worker. All in all we're a weird lot.
@@SaturatedCat ofcourse it's my opinion and viewpoint otherwise I would have quoted the articles an statistics. Clearly you don't agree, fine, but then tell him how you see it instead of giving me the 'its all nonsense argument' and not offer any of your own insights.
I worked for a American Cruise Line and was stunned when I got there and saw people who cleaned rooms for example, bow for me. It was so stunned! I got called to my supervisor because I had a chat with one of the waiters about where he came from etc. and was told that I could not do that in public because of the difference in position. I thought this was so sad. Treating people like dirt and second class citizens because they have a different position in life, in my opinion is so bad.
Damn, I get some Devil wears Prada flashbacks when you talk bout American bosses. I had no idea that it could be like that. That's very interesting indeed.
what you say is right, but it is not every where. In creative / engineering company's it is true what you say, but it is different in blue collar company's .
Who makes a company ? Is it the CEO or the workers? In my book it is ultimately the workers. Without them there would be no company. €120000 per year is enough money earned for a CEO.
Ik vind het heel leuk om te overleggen met mijn baas en collega's! Het is voor mij ook heel normaal om werk van mijn collega's over te nemen, zelfs met een leeftijdsverschil, ik ben 19, mijn baas is 33 en ik heb collega's tot 70-jarige leeftijd 😁
In Holland there are people earning much more than that 112000 euros. We have also people who are earning millions. so that's a bit strange to compare. A difference I saw in America is that many are working overtime without. A dutchman would never do that. At least not someone I know
I used to work at a large lawfirm and there definitely was hierarchy there. Ofcourse there were lawyers, but the rest of the company was referred to as 'non-legals' . Which to me was very strange because why call it something it isn't. For instance I would never call a man a non-woman, or vice versa ;) You also saw the lawyers only interact with other lawyers - unless ofcourse there was an office-party & the secretaries and other non-lawyer women became very attractive all of a sudden ;) When I left that firm I went on to work for the government (a city) and there's virtually no hierarchy there and I love it!
hi joey, love your videos, but this time you have to adjust the numbers. You compared the CEO's average salary of the top 350 US companies with the CEO's average salary of ALL the dutch CEO's. The average salary of all CEO's in the US is 156.00 dollars, which is pretty close compared to the salary a dutch CEO earns. The average salary of the top 25 dutch companies is somewhat like 7 million euros
I think requesting every employee to act like bullshit-detectors is a necessity: small country, small budgets, high risks, less mercyful market. Having that said, the downside of this horizontal communication style is that it can totally come off as rude or amateurist to hierarchical companies.
Maybe you can make a video on health education in the states vs the Netherlands. The dutch are much more open when it comes to sex edudation and mental health
Hey joey, A few reasons of why ceo's earn less i because the netherlands has a lot of zzp'ers They do not have any employees and mostly work construction but as a own person. This lowers the rates of owners average income drastically. Also keep in mind that the Netherlands has a pretty strick income minimum while in the states that is very different. This means that ceo's can't really underpay staff and give that money to himself like that guy from amazon. Those factor i think, in perspective to wage/income of ceo's are a pretty big deal. I agree on how you see our hierarchy. I think most bosses will see it as a way to prove your involvement, dedication and motivation. Also we dutch mostly believe 4 eyes see more than 2. Thanks for all your great video's i learn a lot from you
The thing with the Dutch is you want them to call and refer to you by your given name. If they use your last name then there's a distance between you and them. It might be a respectful distance but most likely it's a cold/disrespectful one as the Dutch worker does not appreciate aloof management. If you were a manager from the US coming to work for the Dutch branch of your company you might prefer that but most likely your coworkers will think very little of you and will probably work against you behind your back or, if there's some type A personalities on the work floor, work against you in your face. Dutch society is all about being no better than anyone else regardless of how much money you make or what kind of car you drive.
I do like the way you give me an insight on how things work over in the US, thanks for all of this, perhaps you could make a video about things exclusive to the Netherlands or the other way around? I'm sure there must be things you mis from the US, If it's not too much of a hassle, I'd love to hear about those things aswell. :P anyhow, thanks for this all, it's really cool to see ppl speak on such positive note about a country i'm luckaly able to call my home.
It can also backfire in a company. Some people just don't feel motivated to work for their boss, because they get their pay at the end of the month no matter what. It's really hard to fire someone even if they don't do their job right. That's something I find frustrating as both a colleague and as a boss. When my colleague doesn't put in the work I do and still get's paid as much that's frustrating. And as a boss it's very hard to motivate people when they feel they get their pay even if their work is mediocre. It's called "een werknemersmentaliteit". In America that's not going to happen. If you want to get paid, you work hard or else you are out. Not saying that's the best solution, but I think we can learn a bit from the Americans here. A mix of both work cultures would be a dream! Love your vids and your channel should be way bigger xoxo
Income has really nothing to do with it. Zip. There are no people that are worth so much more than other workers. Not at all. Capitalist extremism is another subject though.
Fabulous video... I'm neither Dutch nor USA, but recognise your comments. Crew Resource Management is a system that recognises that everyone (No matter pay grade or function) is a professional, and can have a vital function in the success of a company. The problem with many USA businesses is that their workforce is afraid to speak out (the real worry that loss of paid employment will lead them into disaster)... in Europe not so much due to better social support. Also more unionization. The problem with the typical USA corporate model is that many people keep quiet and only the loudest-shouters rise and encourages the arse-lickers... International European corporates aren't much better to be honest. A good manager knows to encourage good relations and really listen to everyone... it's like running a country. USA corporates tend to the psychotic :(
Well we kinda have hierarchy but not really in the rank way. here in the netherlands its more based on proving yourself. If you are unproven you have to fight more for your input If your input was very useful people will take you more serius. But this dos not mean you don't have a say. it just means the better your status the more serious people listen to you and consider what your saying. but yes the bar is WAY lower here in the netherlands when it comes to am i allowed to give input.
I used to work for a company (Packard Hell) with a lot of American people who worked as managers and CEOs. It was so fun to see them be surprised when during meetings people would disagree with them.
I love these comparison videos because you sometimes mention things I as a Dutch person never think about 😂
Good to know! ♥️
Your videos have really made me appreciate The Netherlands more. I think that when you have lived in the same country your whole life, you tend to take some things for granted. I have never thought about a lot of subjects you discuss in your videos, but now I see my beautiful country in a different way. Thank you Joey!
So nice that you see this! ♥️
I second that !
Yes, I got the same feeling.
Absolutely agree! I come from Vietnam, an Asian country so the workplace hierarchy is even more profound than in America. When I started working in the Netherlands I was at a complete lost at first because I didn't know what to do, I was so used to the passive way of thinking, to being told what to do. But I love how I can always feel comfortable with colleagues and managers, and that my ideas matter even though I am just a fresh graduate with little experience. For me, the Dutch working culture is definitely one of the best out there.
This is so true. I'm literally a 16 year old working in a supermarket, but sometimes I work with the manager (because I work Tuesday afternoon when there's barely anyone) and he tells me about the plan for the next weeks, where he'll put all the specials, and he really listens to me if I say I don't like something or have any ideas to make it better.
@TheMerkat55 ,those are the managers i would like to work for.
Not because i need the money (i don't), but then i would be a member of the team.
This social structure starts in Elementary school, I noticed this when I studied abroad. There were four more Dutch people in my class the other 40 people were from Belgium. Dutch people tend to interrupt the teacher when they don't understand something. This made me think about my elementary school where teachers encouraged this so the students get a better understanding of the subject. Sometimes the lessons were just discussions between the students and the teacher about the topic because some things in class didn't make any sense to the class.
I think it's in engrained in our culture to question everything, to help make it better.
At high school we sometimes had geography before our history lessons. A couple of times, when during geography we were taught the names of parts of the world during the Iron Curtain or the situation during The Berlin Wall, and came into his classroom talking about that subject he sometimes asked if we wanted to know more about that subject history-wise.
When my class agreed (we usually had a lesson of 90 minutes instead of the regular 45) he slammed his book shut and started drawing a reasonably basic map of the situation at hand and started talking about the subject and even though it sometimes was totally outside where we were currently in the book, he totally ignored it and we had a very, very interesting lesson.
My old German teacher started his first class with a German sesame street song to encourage us to ask questions.
Wer, Wie, was
Der, die, das
Wieso, weshalb, warum?
Wer nicht fragt bleibt dumm.
Ignoring people's ideas or not asking anyone will make you none the wiser.
I always learned that a cleaning person is just as important as a CEO, we need each other to run a company
Learned that in school too 👍🏼
As someone who has cleaned in different places, I have to say it almost freaked me out how nice people treated me in a couple of office buildings in the Netherlands. Usually the amo is to 'be quiet and don't disturb while working'/'you're not there', and in the Netherlands people usually come up and talk a little, they were genuine curious how I was, and I saw them just for a couple of minutes per day while I was working.
I once even had an office manager who went out of his way that everyone had a Christmas present (I really hadn't expected a Christmas present from work), and when I had to leave I got flowers and farewell gifts as a thank you for my time working there. I really hadn't worked there for long, but it was the most genuine nice work environment I ever had.
@
1973stefant, The fact that you "learned" that a cleaning person is JUST AS IMPORTANT as a CEO is absolutely ridiculous and shows how you haven't learned anything about the world at all.
Jose Carreras Well Jose, it actually turns out how wrong you were with your statement and how little insightful in how things work in this world!!! Little did you know that 1973stefant was actually the one keeping the CEO's and your dumbass Corona-free, now did you? Turns out that cleaners are actually way more important than the CEO's!!! Don't you think you owe him your gratitude, now that we all know that if it weren't for him and all the other cleaners, you might not have been here anymore?!!! 😡🤐💩
@@floatingchimney That's the most ridiculous comment ever, a company can run without a CEO, a CEO cannot run a company without employees, you should always respect your employees whether it is a cleaner or not, all of them have a function within a company and a good company thrives on collaboration and each performing their function well, a company with crumble when parts are not functioning well.
I'm so happy you came to Holland. You're a freaking treasure
Thanks so much so sweet! ♥️
Actually, as a small business owner myself, I’m smart enough to realize that without my coworkers, I wouldn’t have a business, period. My people are my eyes, ears, hands and feet. Without them nothing gets done, or nothing gets done right. If tomorrow they collectively decide to quit and start for themselves, then tomorrow is the day I’m out of business. As others already commented, the American way would be impossible to implement in a Western European mentality/society.
Even the way you referred to others stands out as different than how most in the US would, in a positive way. After stating that you are a small business owner, you referred to others as your coworkers. That doesn't really happen in the US. Here, they would be your employees, your subordinates. So the mere act of calling them coworkers shows that even though you own the business, you consider them to be at least somewhat equal to and not 'beneath' you. If more business owners and managers had that mindset, it would feel like a massive breath of fresh air here.
@@Alazair Funny, even in Germany at my company (~ 6000 employees) our CEO and managment may talk about employees in an interview, but adressing us directly (for example at the council company meeting or annual works council meeting with the entire board) as coworkers. And at this meeting they go around and shake hands with 31 people;)
@@Alazair God i have yelled at my boss who also works as a server at the restaurant so many times. feel like i would be out the first day in the us if i did that there.
Just so you know yelling as in loudly telling him to write verything on a ticket not 90% and tell me the rest. Not gonne remember all 20 tickets that way. After working there for 10 years he still doest this and then blames us.
Dutch people are really future oriented. Behavior like planning, investing in the future and delaying gratification is rewarded highly in our culture. Encouraging rewards. "if I don't get rewarded or even acknowledged for doing it, I won't do it. No. Way!"
So interesting to think about this I agree!
Yes this is kinda a problem btw, as a teacher i see this in the children too. And i love the way they speak up, but they have to do it with arguments. And sometimes the just dont feel like doing it, but life aint al sugercanes and lollypops. so we will have to be aware that not everything is acknowledged. That being said, i do think you have to get acknowledge for doing great work. But some people like to be acknowledge for everything they do nowadays. *bit exaggerated: but if you can wipe your own but, you wont get an applause sir.. thats not how life works :)
*just saying some people do think they get rewarded for everything, its said that the upcoming generation seems to be like that
luckily not everyone ofcourse
Might be because I’m Dutch, but why the frick would you wanna hire a yes-man?
You hire people BECAUSE they bring input, otherwise they did their education for nothing and they’re worthless as employee...
It’s basic valuing employees and their knowledge and expertise..
I think an important part of this is taught in school. In Dutch schools if you don't understand something you ask your teacher, if you don't agree with something you tell them and if you do so in a respective manner they will listen and help you understand or sometimes even help find a way to work with you better.
In American tv the students always get detention for small stuff where in the Netherlands you only really get detention in highschool if you do something really bad or if you're late a lot. In Dutch elementary school detention is near nonexistent, the teacher will rather help solve a problem than punish a student and if there is punishment it's usually in the form of writing lines or not getting to play. This ensures that you learn to talk to your teachers instead of blindly following them.
There's also the way other school faculty is treated. In Dutch high school (at least my high school) everyone liked and respected the janitor, he was one of the most useful people in the school so everyone respected him. This tyoe of respect stays with you when you grow up and get a job, it teaches you to respect a person not s position
I remember that the janitor on my high school was way more respected and revered than most teachers. When you heard the sound of the janitors keychain coming through to hallway, everyone started behaving properly. While it was a sport to annoy the teachers (some not all, some were cool) as much as you could get away with.
Why haven’t you blow up yet? You are AMAZING!
He's ganing about 100 subs per day. So he's doing good! It was only a while ago that he still had 1k subs. :)
Thanks so much my love and yes im gaining lots of subscribers so Im super happy with all the support! ♥️
Hjb jij weet niks
This lack of hierarchy also goes for society at large. Look at how the royals interact with the people, or the president (currently Mark Rutte). When they have conversations with citizens, the tone and language will be that of two people talking in the supermarket.
Whenever I conduct an interview with a prospective employee I make minor yet obvious mistakes when explaining some processes, because I want to see the response. If you can't disagree with me you're really not worth hiring.
I think that Dutch people are really learning that at an early age. I am 16 and at school we are taught to have discussions with our teachers, and interrupt them if we don't understand something. Also if something is unclear, like a schedule or something, we can just go to the department leader and ask them. I also often have to fill in forms about how I feel about things at school, like a big group assignment. They look at our opinions and might change things for the class that has to do the assignment next year.
We do have to be polite to our teachers, but we also feel like we are equal and our opinions matter.
Someone mentioned the "poldermodel" which is the basis for a lot of dutch culture. It means that back when the dutch created the extra land they needed you could never just do that on your own, if you drain your patch of land you may flood your neighbours. So right from the start you had to work together for the mutual benefit of everyone. That has carried through time into a very egalitarian society where we are not that appreciative of people trying to be better than everyone else. So that guy making a lot of money is not admired for building a giant castle and having golden toiletseats. It just looks like showing off something that doesn't matter. Also we don't like it when our neighbours can't live a decent life.
In the U.S if you don't have a job you can easily loose your house and end up on the street so that guy on the lowest rung of the job hierarchy can't just get up and leave if they don't get paid well enough and they are desperate not to get fired. Even much higher up they still have the same problem. So through time people in the U.S have been almost brainwashed into thinking more power and money is so much better that they assign virtue to those people , they admire them and give them status normally reserved for royalty and other bluebloods. Yes Sir, Thank you Sir! Right away Sir!
We don't admire even our king or minister president the way you do someone who is simply rich. Money doesn't mean much to us, we focus on life fulfillment. Do you have the job that makes you feel good about yourself. Does your date mesh well with your personality. Without the focus on the life or death struggle for money you are far more free to be yourself and while different company cultures will differ, a ceo is just as dutch as the employees. They probably didn't come from more money and they probably hate non genuine compliments as it's close to lying and the dutch hate lying.
In countries around us, Belgium and Germany they also don't have our work culture or society culture so you are right, it's very dutch.
well said :)
Wait, what??? 14 million??? Thats crazy... thats probably why those people act like that. Money ruins the world
My boss never wants me to call him boss, just colleagues. If he doesn't understand something, he calls one of us for help and vise versa. That is a really nice way to work!
Why don't you write a book about these items? It's uplifting for us (Dutch people) and perhaps an eye-opener for American people... American culture also has good aspects, of course. Generally spoken and drawing a conclusion from what you are telling us I've the impression that we are less, as we call it, 'zwart-wit': our opinion is perhaps a bit more balanced. I'm happy you found a real home in the Netherlands.
Wages for CEOs at Dutch public companies are capped at a certain amount. This is called the Balkenende norm. It means CEOs are not allowed to earn more than 130% of the Prime Ministers income (Mr. Balkenende at the time). The thought behind it is that the job of the PM is considered one of the hardest and therefore it is not socially just for someone else to make more money in business. The amount includes reneral wages, bonusses, extra income and the money received if ones contract is terminated. That way we keep the balance :)
LoI, I literally had a brainstorming session with my manager this week to discuss what is good about the process and what needs to be improved or even discarded.
I'm Dutch and work for an American company. Many of my colleagues try to butter up the boss, as described in this video. It makes me cringe! Quite frankly, I don't understand how anybody can stand it; employees and bosses alike. It's so phony.
Its ridiculous to pay CEO salaries in the millions. Such large differences in pay lead to extreme differences between rich and poor and support classism, things which are really harmful to society.
Your right on the money with this one, when I was working in the States, they couldn't handle me speaking my mind, or making clear to them that no one is above me, I always made it clear to them that you ask me to do something and 9 out of 10 times there would not be a problem, the moment someone thought they where above me and thought that they could order me around, I made it very clear right away that I was not part of that imaginary world that they live in. got me fired a couple of times but then again I made sure to be in a position to where I could be working somewhere else within days, here in the Holland there are allot of SMALLER companies that do work in the way that you where talking about, bigger companies generally work more like the American way, which has gotten me into trouble also on a few occasions. I work for a small security company here and I have direct access to the CEO, I can walk into his office and sit down and have a talk about stuff or just drop by and BS for a while and I'm not a number there, he knows me, he knows how I react to things, and stuff that I am or am not willing to do. obviously when I get loaned out to a bigger company and you got some snot nose brown noser thinking that he is above me trying to give me orders and a degrading way and I put him/her in there place it causes issues but to be honest i do get a kick out of putting people like that in there place
yup, love this country! I work in a hospital, there is less and less hierarchy (especially with younger docters) just first names and respecting everyones opinions. Love it! You are amazing btw!
Hi i am from Taiwan and recently planning to go to work in the Netherlands. and surprisingly i found the hierarchy in US fits the same with Asian society. thanks for sharing.
If you want to do more culture persectives, maybe Hofstede's Dementions is an idea to actually see where the cultureshock is coming from
Geert Hofstede (Professor emeritus Organizational psychology, Maastricht University). 'Cultural dimensions theory'. Books: 'Culture's consequences'. (scientific edition) and 'Cultures and organizations: software of the mind'. (popularized edition), in het Nederlands: 'Allemaal andersdenkenden: omgaan met cultuurverschillen'. On UA-cam: (Geert) Hofstede (& Culture / Cultural dimensions / National cultures etc.). Hofstede distinguishes 6 dimensions of national cultures: 1. Power distance (high vs low), 2. Individualism vs Collectivism, 3. Uncertainty avoidance (high vs low), 4. Masculinity vs Femininity, 5. Orientation (long term vs short term), 6. Indulgence vs restraint (gratification of needs).
Mention at the same time what the average workers in the US earns, then you might understand how it's possible that a ceo makes those amounts of money....furthermore the way people in The Netherlands are used to be included in their worksituation is called a "poldermodel", basically meaning that you can contribute in talks to advance the way an organisation is moving forward.....
Having experienced Dutch, French, Belgian, American and German working culture a bit. Through doing (welding) projects either in those countries or "under" management from those. And even working directly for a large American company. I found that the Dutch way of doing things in that matter works best long term. Informal. Getting feedback sometimes brutaly direct but honest is very healthy for the organisation. As my first emoyer put it in our very first talk. I am not looking for someone below me. I am looking for someone beside me.
Not only compared to the US. In the 80s I worked as a student in Australia as an apprentice in an architects office. On day one the architect said that in this office was not run hierarchical. First one of my colleagues and after a couple of days the boss told me that it was not necessary to really question and discuss everything and just do what I was told. I remembered him on what he said the first day and with a big smile he said "that is just what I mean!" We became friends and I worked over there an other couple of months after my internship and we met a couple of times when he came over to Europe.
Great video!
I have a season job at a playground annex climbingparcours and it is just like you described It. My boss also asks for our opinion about things and appriciates it when you are being totally honest
I work for a production company and there is hierarchy, that also means there is potential to grow in the company upwards or specialize in, branche out, you start almost generic and how longer you work for the company how more specialist you can be come.
Completely true~
I’m at a company now that works in security and safety, and they have a sort of ladder? (Promotion wise) but even now when my class is graduating college with this company, our direct boss and his operational manager (prtty high up) were just like “yeh let’s all go for drinks when you all passed the end exam” even though some of the members on their team I’d never see outside suit and tie while we lil students are in uniform, and still everyone shouts, curses, and nicknames towards each other when we see them during smoke breaks and meetings
What might be interesting to know is that in corporate society, we actually have laws in the netherlands that prevent earning a salary above a certain amount. We call it the balkenende norm, and it's basically a rule that states no one can earn more than the prime minister. The prime minister's job is one of the most complex jobs in the country, so it seems reasonable that that would be a margin, but it also literally puts a limit on greed. It's one of the reasons the american system seems so baffling to us.
I never realised The Netherlands are this different from America because we’re taught in school that the Western world is influenced by America so its kinda the opposite
that's not true though.
America is what's called an isolated society.
they differ from the rest if western society.
they're arrogant toddlers
An American Facebookfriend was pretty weirded out to see people in The Netherlands walk around with sweaters saying "F.D.N.Y." on them, or "N.Y." In much the same way he did not understand how our national (public) news can be so full of American news, his question was literally something like this "Don't you have like, important stuff in your country happening?"
Who is they? Isn't that a stereotype?
its also the case with how you do the work. {depends on the work}
in the USA it has to go by the book {even for simple tings}
while in the EU, if you find a better way/more productive, you are allowed to use that way.
even if the product/rsult you produce is exactly the same
simply put 100 steps in the USA
99 steps in the EU
10 steps with the way you discovered.
what would your boss like better:
the 3rd option
Dutch workers are also protected by laws which gives them security in their working rights. So they don't have to fear being laid off just like that. I think that also helps in the relationships between workers and their chefs.
We have hierarcy on a limitid scope. I work in a small software development company. We have: Interns-Programmers-Teamleader-Boss. I'm permitted to say a lot of things, but not everything. Our input is valued, but in the end the boss decides what we do. socially, we're much more equal to eachother.
Second reaction, can you index the CEO salaries in respect to the gross revenue of the companies? I think you’ll see NL CEO’s earn more...
if you see me with my boss you might even think I am the boss instead...
Thats how we do it.. today I told him I didnt like his attitude last week or so.. and he said sorry..
And yes he sure is my boss.. and we appriciate each others work..
I love your video's as a Dutch women! Troughout the years this is al so comon to us Dutchies. I work at a Hospital (Ziekenhuis) where there is the same situation as you managed in this video... but it is only with my colleges and with my manager but not with the Doctors (artsen). They like to think that they are above us because of thier studies and everything and act like that. I hate that idea because without the nurses and medical assistents they could not get everything done.
Hi Joey, I think your comparison is a bit off. The $ 14M figure is the S&P 500 average, so multi-billion dollar companies. The EUR 112K figure is the Netherlands is based on all the businesses in the Netherlands. If you look at a comparable number in the Netherlands, the average CEO of a publicly traded company actually makes around EUR 1,5M. Still a big difference though...
Hey i got a quick question, im curious if there are things you like more in america then the Netherlands (since these videos do praise the Netherlands quite alot) anyway thanks alot for the videos found out about your channel 4 days ago and watched everything allready ^^
What you're saying, Joey, is so true. I used to work for an American company (headquarters in the US, EU branch in the NL) and these differences led to many misunderstandings and even conflicts. The US managers expected the Dutch staff to follow their orders blindly whereas we in the NL always had something to say say back, always some opinion, comment, which irritated the US managers as they rather expected obedience. And vice versa, when the Dutch managers came up with some idea or a rule, they always expected feedback and opinion from the staff but the Americans simply followed without giving it too much thought. We were even told that the instructions must always be clear and straightforward (black or white) for our American colleagues with no room for interpretation etc. so that they could just follow the order as this was how it was expected in the US.
Btw love your video's where you compare the 2 countries. Always something interesting to learn (love your usual vlogs as well, always fun). Groetjes.
The company I work for is exactly as you described. Our owner we call him Henk by his first name and our CEO we call her Truus. They both don't think they are on a higher level and we have to do as we are told. It's all a work in progress and we all get a chance to give our input. That is one of the reasons that I love my job.
I think the income discrepancy between the two sorts of CEOs is mostly cultural. "up for grabs? Lemme have it" vs what you noticed about the more spread-out hierarchy over here. There are many exceptions of course, but there's more of an "economy of enough" in the Netherlands perhaps? That way even higher-up people can stay and feel normal (as you mentioned in one of your other videos). I don't think I've ever used anything else than their first name to even the most influential professors at uni. They want you to get involved and educate, salary is optional.
Dutch CEOs earn less but the lowest of employees like the cleaners have a minimum income of like seven to ten euros an hour.
giving them a fair wage to live on. its not mush but stil like 1000 to 1300 a month. you will live off benefits from the government but you have work with possibilities for pay rises.
So true. In the US, everyone at work is terrified to lose their jobs. You are easily replaceable. It’s a silent rule to just nod and keep your mouth shut if you want to keep your job or if you want to climb that corporate ladder. Then there’s the backstabbing coworkers also competing for the same promotions. The fear and competition makes it a really stressful work environment.
Perhaps the reason it is more relaxed in the Netherlands is because it not so easy to get fired and even if you are fired, your government has got your back. Also people in the USA definitely have bigger bills to pay, such as college loans, car payments, and all kinds of other debts. The Netherlands, not so much. So employers are not too quick to hold people’s jobs over their heads everyday and threaten that they’ll be in the street.
I don’t think the people in the Netherlands live and work in fear like the people do in the US. The US is truly something else. I visit the Netherlands often but live in the US, and I have to say when you compare the two countries, the stress levels in the US are through the roof.
Love your channel! Just subscribed!
We hate people who think they are above us. I once did cleaning work for a year due to a bad economy. I have the utmost respect for people working in the cleaning bussines.
That is absolutely true. In our company we even have the policy that our office doors are not allowed to be closed to even further promote the "open and welcoming" atmosphere. Anyone from any level is welcome to just walk into the office of the CEO and discuss anything. Financial data is also available to every employee.
If you absolutely want a private one-on-one with your supervisor of course you can, but the rule is that everyone is welcome everywhere.
I therefore feel just as appreciated as any other manager.
I happen to work for a company that has slightly more hierarchie than most companies in the netherlands, but me and my dutch work experience were placed in a north american work situation and unaware of the customaries i, as an intern, called out the owner and ceo for not paying me what they had promised. Everybody was shocked, i got my way in the end, but everybody was sure i was gonna get fired. It was quite the experience. I love your videos, your observations are very accurate.
The way we treat hierarchy is integrated in every part of the Dutch society. I think it's part of the "doe maar normaal" culture. This graphic gives very good inside in the differences in hierarchy and how we see leadership: hbr.org/resources/images/article_assets/2017/06/R1704D_MEYER_MAPPINGLEADERSHIPCULTURES-1024x1011.png
As one of the comments below say, it already starts from a very young age. Dutch children are very much encouraged to have an opinion and to speak up. Many kids on elementary school (at least in the early grades) start the week with a "kringgesprek" (circle or group discussion) where kids are encouraged to tell about what kind of activities they have done in the weekend and what they think about certain subjects. As somebody commented, the difference between Belgian kids is huge, they are more used to a school model where they learn to remain silent and listen to the teacher.
In many ways it's great that the hierarchy is not that high in The Netherlands because it gives a lot of people equal chances, but sometimes it has his down sides. Some of my friends work as elementary school teachers, they tell me that a lot of children don't get a lot of discipline at home (because parents are negotiating all the time with their children, even if their children are only 5 years old) and that parents don't have a lot of respect for them as teachers. For instance, if children don't listen and the teacher wants to discipline them, parents often get angry at the teacher and blame them, instead of their own children... but I don't know if that is common in the United States as well.
Here in the Netherlands, the CEO, chief, boss (or whatever) hires you because you are the expert in your field. He pays you for your expertise and knowledge and trusts you. Though, keep in mind; having a flat hierarchy might sound ideal at first but getting higher up and earning significantly more money (inside the same company) can easily be stagnated by that same principle. Speaking from experience here. ( though in engineering world )
This is so nice to hear ! Yes in the Netherlands we are all the same in working space. That means we are allowed to speak. My husband is a boss and he feels himself the same as his employees. And at christmas we all have diner together and then we are all the same sitting at the same table. And to us that is obvious, normal We don't even think about it. And I think it should be like that. And my god what your CEO's earn that is insane !!!. That will never be in Holland.
Thank you for this sincere video comparing American culture to European. A lot of people told me same words, but now I am certain. And your videos are really clear and understandable. Thanks again and good luck!
As a dutch person, with what we consider a hierarchy we still interrupt our bosses, if we know, or think that something is incorrect. we debate decisions right into there faces if we think its unwise. Most of the time that debate either leads to an explanation of why the decision is made in that respect, or a immediate or planned change. What i would rather see than a comparison of income is a comparison of work related happiness.
There is hiërarchie in the netherlands. I work in the healthcare and there is truly an hiërarchie. And im even not talking about the moneydifferences. The higher you stand on the ladder, the more money you get.
This dude has the staccato flow of speaking down to a tee.
Now that we're talking about work, what kind of job do you have. As a seventeen year old i'm in my first year of studying to become a teacher in elementary school
Im a talent manager and a sports instructor.
@@JoeyJaq cool
try working in a metal factory or other blue collar job in Holland. You will know what it means to be a tool.
Huh, that average income for ceo's is interesting I would've expected it to be higher, especially because my father made around that much working at IBM, and not as ceo not even close so I suppose it depends on the company as well. Though it might be off set by many of the independent run companies and ceo's in the Netherlands.The company I work at has just like 6 people working there so it's not exactly a 'ceo' type position you think of with large corporations.
We Dutch simply consider every 1 equally important.
It's like a clockwork...there is no important gear or less important...if 1 gear breaks down...the clock stops.
This might disappear in the comment section, but I'm curious if there is a different between the US and the Netherlands with how people treat the cleaners/cooks/that sort of jobs at their office?
Because in my experience, that can really differ per the country :)
Would it be a good idea to make a video about your transition from the imperial system to the metric system. Im Dutch I honestly don't know how to work with the imperial system. When we were in America my father had to say "above 70°F is warm, below 70°F is cold" so we knew how to dress
Think the CEO max income is also based on something called the Balkenende norm. Not sure now, but in the Netherlands each boss has a maximum he may get or so...
No, CEO's can be paid any amount shareholders are willing to pay them. The 'Balkenende norm' applies to organisations funded by the government. It says that no executive of an organisation funded by the government may be paid more than the Prime-Minister.
that's only true for public institutions, I think.
Australians have same sort of aay thing of thinking about the way management works we get encouraged to question our boses and treated the same by our bosses
I'm a ceo and the thing is, if you allow your team to get creative then beautiful things happens. When you treat your people right , the do right for you and your course. As simpel as that, iron fist never ever works , people don't get motivation out of that.
I think the bigger the compagny, the bigger the differences between workers. Some very big compagnies treat their workers like numbers, while smaller compagnies will treat you like an actual person :)
I never realized this because I'm used to it, I'm frome here, but it's true. Most companies I've worked for are like this, but also schools, sportsclubs etc. That's where it all starts when you're young. You're no better than everyone else and vice versa. Equal rights, even when you're a kid at school, ask questions, ask why! Foreign friends told me that Dutch people always ask why and that's not always understood abroad.
The cleaning lady at the office cleans your desk, the toilet etc, be nice to her and greet her, you're not better and she cleans your toilet for christs sake😊
If a CEO would pretty much dare to earn that kind of money over here, he would be publicly hanged xD Without joking tho, no one would tolerate it
This makes me proud of the country I live in! Thanks for this video
This is interesting since I normally don't like comparing one culture to a completely different one with different history and what not. I'm working and living in China, and work culture in the US is oftentimes way more appealing than here. Obviously its not the best, but a majority of people within the country do not have the privilege to leave it. Speaking out against it also takes power and numbers too. The thing is, many Americans have been tricked to thinking this is how it's supposed to be and as a result become indifferent to change. Until that indifference changes, than I don't see how it could improve.
You can move up fast when you are assertive. They like it that you speak out.
When you don’t they think you not motivated.
I agree 100%b
Great video but I wish you’d talked more about salary differences between Netherlands and USA. Do you make more or less money in your current job compared to when you were in the States? If less, do you think life expenses in Amsterdam are less than NYC so it actually evens out?
It's also proportions. The Dutch people having gone through oppression and the rise of socialism, we don't really do hiërarchy that well. Our individualism makes us look and compare thinking; is it fair that he earns so much more? A doctor? Sure, he's studied 'twelve' years, works long hours and saves lives. But that guy who made it up to the managing position? Hell no. He may be smart, but he's not that different or more than me. This feeling particularly grows if we think the person doesn't contribute enough, or acts arrogant or abuses the position. The final nail in the coffin would be (coldheartedness) if they fired several people, but accept a bonus for making that year's quota. You'll hear about it in the news when the banks or big companies try to do so. The outcry is that much greater then. There is also the aspect of need. Like does he need to make 12 million euro's a year? After all that salary could feed several families...he could easily live on a million and that still would be more then plenty. This especially comes into play with 'family companies'. (With the smaller ones you might have even a more one on one contact with your boss) thus making the livelyhoods of others more connected. Instead of numbers you attribute faces and stories to those numbers this goes for both the boss aswell as the worker. All in all we're a weird lot.
This is your personal opinion and not the Dutch concensus, furthermore it's full of false assumptions on your side.
@@SaturatedCat ofcourse it's my opinion and viewpoint otherwise I would have quoted the articles an statistics. Clearly you don't agree, fine, but then tell him how you see it instead of giving me the 'its all nonsense argument' and not offer any of your own insights.
I worked for a American Cruise Line and was stunned when I got there and saw people who cleaned rooms for example, bow for me. It was so stunned! I got called to my supervisor because I had a chat with one of the waiters about where he came from etc. and was told that I could not do that in public because of the difference in position. I thought this was so sad. Treating people like dirt and second class citizens because they have a different position in life, in my opinion is so bad.
This man just makes me appreciate the things around me more and more. First vid subscribed
Such a sweet comment thank you!!!!
Damn, I get some Devil wears Prada flashbacks when you talk bout American bosses.
I had no idea that it could be like that. That's very interesting indeed.
what you say is right, but it is not every where. In creative / engineering company's it is true what you say, but it is different in blue collar company's .
Who makes a company ? Is it the CEO or the workers? In my book it is ultimately the workers. Without them there would be no company. €120000 per year is enough money earned for a CEO.
Ik vind het heel leuk om te overleggen met mijn baas en collega's! Het is voor mij ook heel normaal om werk van mijn collega's over te nemen, zelfs met een leeftijdsverschil, ik ben 19, mijn baas is 33 en ik heb collega's tot 70-jarige leeftijd 😁
In Holland there are people earning much more than that 112000 euros. We have also people who are earning millions. so that's a bit strange to compare. A difference I saw in America is that many are working overtime without. A dutchman would never do that. At least not someone I know
I used to work at a large lawfirm and there definitely was hierarchy there. Ofcourse there were lawyers, but the rest of the company was referred to as 'non-legals' . Which to me was very strange because why call it something it isn't. For instance I would never call a man a non-woman, or vice versa ;) You also saw the lawyers only interact with other lawyers - unless ofcourse there was an office-party & the secretaries and other non-lawyer women became very attractive all of a sudden ;) When I left that firm I went on to work for the government (a city) and there's virtually no hierarchy there and I love it!
Interesting...yeah I interact with a lot of people from zuidas and they are very interesting!
this was one of the big firms at the Zuidas. I still talk to a lot of my former coworkers there. It's still happening, very interesting indeed ;)
@@klodoob7615 I have a friend that is working for a big lawfirm as well. I feel those are one of the exceptions on hierarchy...
hi joey, love your videos, but this time you have to adjust the numbers. You compared the CEO's average salary of the top 350 US companies with the CEO's average salary of ALL the dutch CEO's. The average salary of all CEO's in the US is 156.00 dollars, which is pretty close compared to the salary a dutch CEO earns. The average salary of the top 25 dutch companies is somewhat like 7 million euros
I think requesting every employee to act like bullshit-detectors is a necessity: small country, small budgets, high risks, less mercyful market. Having that said, the downside of this horizontal communication style is that it can totally come off as rude or amateurist to hierarchical companies.
Maybe you can make a video on health education in the states vs the Netherlands. The dutch are much more open when it comes to sex edudation and mental health
America sounds so Medieval sometimes.
Hey joey,
A few reasons of why ceo's earn less i because the netherlands has a lot of zzp'ers They do not have any employees and mostly work construction but as a own person. This lowers the rates of owners average income drastically. Also keep in mind that the Netherlands has a pretty strick income minimum while in the states that is very different. This means that ceo's can't really underpay staff and give that money to himself like that guy from amazon. Those factor i think, in perspective to wage/income of ceo's are a pretty big deal.
I agree on how you see our hierarchy. I think most bosses will see it as a way to prove your involvement, dedication and motivation. Also we dutch mostly believe 4 eyes see more than 2.
Thanks for all your great video's i learn a lot from you
The thing with the Dutch is you want them to call and refer to you by your given name. If they use your last name then there's a distance between you and them. It might be a respectful distance but most likely it's a cold/disrespectful one as the Dutch worker does not appreciate aloof management. If you were a manager from the US coming to work for the Dutch branch of your company you might prefer that but most likely your coworkers will think very little of you and will probably work against you behind your back or, if there's some type A personalities on the work floor, work against you in your face. Dutch society is all about being no better than anyone else regardless of how much money you make or what kind of car you drive.
I do like the way you give me an insight on how things work over in the US, thanks for all of this, perhaps you could make a video about things exclusive to the Netherlands or the other way around? I'm sure there must be things you mis from the US, If it's not too much of a hassle, I'd love to hear about those things aswell. :P
anyhow, thanks for this all, it's really cool to see ppl speak on such positive note about a country i'm luckaly able to call my home.
WOW! This is in my opinion the best video you've made! Thanks for your inspiration!
However its not as black and white as you put it. I think Americans have to be a bit carefull, because we've bounderies too.
It can also backfire in a company. Some people just don't feel motivated to work for their boss, because they get their pay at the end of the month no matter what. It's really hard to fire someone even if they don't do their job right. That's something I find frustrating as both a colleague and as a boss. When my colleague doesn't put in the work I do and still get's paid as much that's frustrating. And as a boss it's very hard to motivate people when they feel they get their pay even if their work is mediocre. It's called "een werknemersmentaliteit". In America that's not going to happen. If you want to get paid, you work hard or else you are out. Not saying that's the best solution, but I think we can learn a bit from the Americans here. A mix of both work cultures would be a dream! Love your vids and your channel should be way bigger xoxo
So CEO,s in the USA are like Dutch bankers?!
One question...what is "High-arky"?
You are totally amazing, you do a great job in understanding the Dutch society
Income has really nothing to do with it. Zip. There are no people that are worth so much more than other workers. Not at all. Capitalist extremism is another subject though.
Fabulous video... I'm neither Dutch nor USA, but recognise your comments. Crew Resource Management is a system that recognises that everyone (No matter pay grade or function) is a professional, and can have a vital function in the success of a company. The problem with many USA businesses is that their workforce is afraid to speak out (the real worry that loss of paid employment will lead them into disaster)... in Europe not so much due to better social support. Also more unionization. The problem with the typical USA corporate model is that many people keep quiet and only the loudest-shouters rise and encourages the arse-lickers... International European corporates aren't much better to be honest.
A good manager knows to encourage good relations and really listen to everyone... it's like running a country. USA corporates tend to the psychotic :(
Well we kinda have hierarchy but not really in the rank way.
here in the netherlands its more based on proving yourself. If you are unproven you have to fight more for your input
If your input was very useful people will take you more serius. But this dos not mean you don't have a say. it just means the better your status the more serious people listen to you
and consider what your saying. but yes the bar is WAY lower here in the netherlands when it comes to am i allowed to give input.
They need a vrijmibo (Friday afternoon drink). Just relax for a bit.