Brenden Graham Dempsey's Story. Questions for PVK on Common Issues on Church and Religion
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- Опубліковано 19 жов 2024
- / @brendangrahamdempsey
Our Second talk. First one was • What does it Mean for ...
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Paul, whenever you mention marrying or burying people (and all the other ways you minister to real people in real life) which I know is a central part of your vocation, it always hits me so differently from the "thinky talky" stuff. It grounds the conversation, and I wanted to say how much I appreciate the reminder.
I think that's why the previous conversation went how it did. Paul wanted it grounded in that, and for good or bad, he didn't want to play it another way.
The whole vibe in the video is completely different for a reason.
Well having his story laid out before the back and forth definitely makes for a better conversation that isn’t as reactionary. Thanks for sharing a second round.
I appreciate this interview after your first conversation. I hope it shows that your first convo was not antagonistic to one another but rather two contestants who have found another capable of keeping up with one another and providing challenge.
One thing about Brendan, he does not strike me as lukewarm- not in the slightest
A fantastic modeling of conversation among brothers. Thanks Gents!
On collapse...
"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot." Matt 5:13
I must admit that I am a man of little faith, and that I have lost the confidence that I once had in my youth, but praise be to God, that He sees me and keeps me!
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Really loved this convo, gentlemen. I'd like to get to know Brenden. I feel for his pain in this whole process and deeply resonate with it. He's my kind of people.
I figured this style of convo would really help many here connect with him and even if they don't agree at least appreciate where he's coming from.
2:53:29 “To whom much is given, much is required” this has been rolling around my head for the last few days
Sensitive creative intelligent young man ;-)
Some much needed context from prior conversation. BGD seems like a cool guy.
What a great job by both of you! Thanks!
I’d say that Brendan’s literacy and creative thinking would have been therapeutic for him and helped him to work through the negative impact of the fundamentalist religion. Good stuff.
Much more valuable conversation this time 👍
The more I watch these rando conversations, the more I sense their intrusiveness. As an internet lurker, as most of us are, I experience a sense of guilt by being exposed to someone else's intimate life details, even if it they are willingly shared. I wonder if I'm the only one.
@@EmJay2022 People enthusiastically agree to these knowing Paul will ask them their life story. Paul doesn’t make them public if they don’t want to after the conversation.
@@shovas I'm wrestling with the question of whether engaging in rando conversations is morally justifiable, despite the enthusiasm displayed by those who partake in them.
There have been instances where individuals have requested Paul to remove their randos. This indicates to me that there was a moral dilemma experienced by these individuals.
BGD and PVK round 2 after several hours of commentary between rounds. Good stuff.
God became man is by definition the end of religion.
Dude, so true. At one point in this convo, he said that we need to focus more on the immanetizing of God and the transcendentals. Yes. We don't understand the Incarnation or iconography...if we did properly...the problems would fall away.
I know Girard has his critics in these parts but I think his use of the scapegoat mechanism to lay bare the essence of myth and demythologizing religion proper (or rather, what we moderns call religion) is basically true for Christianity
Graham that was so cool and so helpful having experience personally with the I . I agree . It can
Be can be difficult to communicate and be understood at the different levels .. sometimes .. which means sometimes ..maybe much of the time accepting not being with your tribe but ‘perhaps love is all around ‘…
Being in Oxford helps
Definitely need to see a photo of this unauthorized dorm room mural (!)
Love the idea of 'staving off the collapse of society' by way of being a dandy 😆 - we've all been there . . . some of us never left! 🧐
You can't corner a Yalie 🙂
I'm sure Kierkegaard would have appreciated the irony of that proposal 😅
'Mobile Monestary' (?!?!?) - is this some kind of dystopian apotheosis of the 'bookmobile' for a post-literate society? 😆
If the 'meaning crisis' really is symptomatic of an underlying 'Christian malaise' - which I suspect it is - these two exchanges are some of the most productive you have had.
Always good to meet another member of the Christian Diaspora. 🤝
We've had another Yalie in the corner already. Church planter from Arizona. He's been on twice.
Yes! Cone to Vermont!! Give New Englanders a little love!!!
I got a weird suspicion that the fingers of his hand may have made an appearance in the book of Daniel 😆
My wife grew up with GT and has passed that along to my children. My kids know all the songs by heart.
This covered alot of my ponderings regarding the implications of historical-critical studies, feeling the presence of God apart from a established tradition, the often, though certainly not always, moral superiority of those with simple faith, and the path navigating all those things.
Thanks for doing this gentleman. Ill definitely have to give "The Discarded Image" a look.
I don't think adults in the contexts Brendan and I shared understood how absolutely terrifying their dispensationalist end times theories were in the mind of children.
John Vervaeke can attest to that.
but also kind of exciting.
It is why I absolutely won't tolerate the SBC.
7:50 it’s interesting, now I look back at my PCUSA upbringing as naiive, that “God is Love” so we have nothing to worry about mantra, and I see Catholicism, staring up at the crucifix as finding value in the redemptive nature of suffering. But i see all these cradle Catholics as suffering what can only be construed as “Catholic guilt”, and I wonder if I was the lucky one growing up Protestant ooey gooey “God is Love” land. It’s quite lovely, the awe and mystery of how stories unfold.
Well it ain't hard to see what corner of the corner this guy fits in. (We are talking a couple of weeks). So much overlap. The biggest difference is that I was never as all in on the Charismatic/Evangelical thing as he was, being a natural, rather than a convinced universalist meant I could never be all in like that.
I was thinking similar things. I almost asked him "Have you been on Grail Country yet?" :)
May I come?
I really appreciated the part of this conversation dealing with re-construction and a humble openness, isn’t that part of what Jesus meant when He told Nicodemus it was necessary to be born again.
I’d love to know more about the artist that worked with broken things, it is like kintsugi pottery where the broken parts are filled with gold.
I did a whole series of paintings of very large ice cubes based on a very connected theme; the beauty in transition, accepting the shift while reflecting what was.
Thank you both.
Trinitarian Bible Society has good scholarly articles on the various modern English versions.
Edward J Young's 3 volume work The Book of Isaiah is a good study which upholds the single authorship.
1:39:24
We gotta get out of this place
If it's the last thing we ever do
We gotta get out of this place
'Cause girl, there's a better life for me and you
Used to hand out tracks. Leave them in bathrooms, etc.
Most people rejected His message. They hated Jesus because he told them the truth.
1:22:53 the “clinging and climbing the ladder of academia”…1:23:08..”got into permaculture…”
Check out the Regeneration podcast with Michael Martin (regenerative, biodynamic farmer, theologian, poet) and Mike Sauter
PVK, i really appreciate your inclusion of that IQ80 angle, the one that Peterson raised but hasn't really addressed. (That i know of)
Religion is simple enough that a cave man can do it ;-)
1:31:20 “The muse is real.” - cs Lewis from Out of the Silent Planet
I keep on finding out I’m more CRC; the first bible I read cover to cover was my NIV study Bible. I still love the gist-y-ness of a dynamic equivalent.
The NIV was ok until the latest version, which went woke.
@@vaportrails7943 there are many such cases.
39:30 the best tracts were the ones that looked like a $100 bill that people would sometimes leave instead of a tip
Wow. Instead of a tip? That one should have been filed away under Great Moments in Bad Ideas. 😅
I wonder how many people these type of tracts, and the Fundamentalism that produced this trash, turned away from the Love of Christ?
My proposal was very different ... but I earlier did pilgrimage to the grave of Nikos Kazantzakis, the writer of Zorba the Greek and The Last Temptation of Christ. Glad you gave your first fiancé a second chance. I gave my girlfriend a second chance, and we married a year later ;-)
In keeping with Paul's eschatology of the UA-cam video, the best part of this was the last 30 mins
Deep conversation, thank you both. I think Jesus helped his community deconstruct their situation of oppression by the Romans, Herod & the Temple. Tax, tax , tax until you are starving & society is falling apart. Especially the Torah’s call for a just society is unraveling under the stress.
Jesus teaches much using parables so the wisdom is heard by folks of different levels of intelligence and learning. He calls people back to covenental awareness, Love God, He cares and loves you, likewise love and care for your neighbors, far and wide.
I’ve often wondered why eschatology never comes up in TLC - here it did.
1:07:50 Remember Embody
1:09:05 This hit home.
On the crumbling of worlds, "beauty from ashes" topic... My sense is that a huge part of the story of evangelicalism in 20th century, all over the world, was the story lives being re-built after disaster. Evangelical churches are full of these "first generation" evangelicals who, through suffering, death, sin, and trauma, found new life in new soil of "Bible-based teaching", community-groups/Bible-studies, praise music, and so forth. Often these people were Christians in the mainline (Paul's oft cited example of Chuck Colson!), Catholicism, or Eastern Orthodoxy.
The apologetics train always goes off the tracks and over the cliff.
Sorry for your car crash, Brendan. Glad you recovered. In Kabbalah every letter of the Hebrew alphabet is significant ;-)
An artist making his own god is just the old idolatry of shaping a piece of wood and worshiping it, as roundly condemned and ridiculed in the Biblical prophets.
When is an idol actually an icon?
@@BrendanGrahamDempsey The Lord Jesus Christ is the icon of God. Other imaginative ideas of God are false images, idols.
2:04:27 the redemptive value of suffering
You know where the chick track is distributed out of? Right around chino ca. Ontario ca
Re: Lewis wrestling with these things. He was helped by having Barfield and Charles Williams. Barfield talk him how to save the appearances and kept him from being overly caught-up in a world of verbless nouns. Williams was tapped in the wildness of poetic imagination. Lewis is way less normie than people think.
13:40 awesome story
2:35:50 fwd in languaging the Christian story and the whole message that can speak across multiple demographics and scale up to those more sophisticated folks who are having to grapple with meaning in life, is there a point at which it is no longer the Christian message?
Thanks Paul,
I've been wrestling with this smarty-pants high IQ thing. It seems to be like any other medicine, 'may cause side effects', one of which is clearly a reduced ability to communicate and another is harder to put into words but it's something like a conditioning to only reason logically, which, if done in full, must lead to the idea that 'free will cannot exist and nor can God'.
1:07:05 The only metamodernism that I’ve really gone deeply into is Sturgill Simpsons’s Metamodern Sounds in Country Music 🤠😎🫨
2:17:09 "...living in the perpetual expectation as being a mode of its own fulfillment..."
He's heard of Peter Rollins, even if he hasn't...😆
Freedom from the libidinal pursuit of the Lack (that which promises to make one whole and complete).
1:39:30 you know, the roman empire was modern, they lived just like us, derooted individuals travelling around the world from one cosmopolitan city to another, they went throught a "capitalist" era, then through a "socialist era", then came the stoics and a bunch of cults, and then christ. nothing new under the sun
Social Gospel? Good. Greek? Wonderful ;-)
Next one should be a combo of Neal Mcmo and or Kale to chat w him
I wish I could talk that much, or at least be that articulate.
He had a lot pent up for such a young man ;-)
Paul says he's wrapping up and then goes for another hour. He's definitely a Protestant minister. 😂
Oh, I hated GT and the Halo Express. Too cheesy even for childhood me. The Donut Man was where it was at.
I remember a long vacation car trip with the kids in the back singing "joy is the flag flying high o'r the castle of my heart, for the King is in residence there. Let it FLY in the SKY let the whole world know, let the whole world know...."
2:21:10 "The problem with Universalism tends to be injustice (no accounting)..."
OMG, Paul! Read George MacDonald's Justice sermon already. It's time. I've recommended it 10+ times and I always bring it up when you falsely represent my form of Christian Universal redemption (apocatastasis), Universalism.
It's free online. Look it up.
G-d's providence is for all people. Christ's call is for Christians only.
@@williambranch4283 idk. The livestream today is about a lot related to this. Ideology vs proper being.
1:34:00 was profound BGD
Hi Paul,
Being as you seem to be an old romantic, why not put together a series of boy meets girl, they get married clips?
1:17:33 “what’s so important for me is a move into the imminent…”
Radical incarnationalism. Emphasizing the imminence of G-d is very Christian imo.
You’re describing iconography. As I see it.
Judaism and Islam deny incarnation.
2:02:30 I would argue that you can't understand anyone properly without knowing them. 1 Corinthians 8 - Personalist knowing.
Brandon ... How to Live a Simple Life (2009), a documentary with Peter Owen-Jones ... might be of interest.
1:30:01 Hermes strikes again! (Blue intertwining flames, cadecus of Mercury…) 🧞♂️
I went through a slightly similar process, in the sense of trying to intellectualize these things, and study them in an empirical way. But what it led me to conclude is that 99% of the output of academia is actual fraudulent fiction. What happened is that “The Enlightenment” elevated human reason as an object of worship, beyond its capabilities. It was self-aggrandizement on the part of academics, a pure self-serving con. The consequence was the “social sciences”, which is an inherently dishonest term. And the social sciences led to progressivism, which led directly, and inevitably, to totalitarianism and mass murder. The notion that “science” could be used to perfect human beings is actually evil, when carried to its logical conclusion. The Utopian fantasies of self-worshiping academics result in viewing human beings as cattle to be bred and slaughtered.
A few other conclusions:
- Physics and chemistry are the only real sciences.
- The Humanities are mush. Taking them too seriously is an error.
- Nietzsche was a deranged syphilitic who undeniably directly inspired the mustache man. Attempts to exonerate and rehabilitate him are inappropriate, and morally wrong.
- Biology is on the border between hard and soft science. In short, whenever human beings attempt to study themselves, it goes badly astray. And that territory is full of junk science.
I could go on, but that’s a basic summary. With regard to the Bible, my conclusion is something like this: if human beings thousands of years ago saw an airplane - an actual airplane flying overhead - and it fired missiles at a city and destroyed it, how would they describe that? They could describe it as a fire-breathing dragon. But they actually saw the airplane. It actually happened. That’s the way I see the parts of the Bible that some see as unbelievable. The people writing it were human, divinely inspired, but still human, and they did their best to communicate what they saw, heard or experienced. If you are capable of believing that there could be extraterrestrials, or other dimensions, you are capable of believing anything in the Bible.
You can either conclude that they were making it up and lying, or you can conclude that what they described actually happened. That’s the only real question. And ultimately, it is a question of faith. On either side.
Which is why atheism rests on what is ultimately a false, and unscientific, premise. That is, if “science” (real or not) has not proved something, it doesn’t exist. And all of its claims really are that dumb and juvenile. Even if you only believe in the scientific method, it falls apart. If the scientific method is your only guide, you can only be an agnostic. Otherwise, you have ceased to follow the scientific method.
Finally, in case anyone hasn’t put it together yet, COVID ended “trust the science”. For everyone, whether they’ve realized it yet or not. Also, “historical criticism” of the Bible is not an objective search for truth. It’s a dishonest Marxist project to undermine Western Civilization in preparation for the cleansing fire of Revolution.
What I said above may be seen as opinion, but I have concluded that it is objective fact, arrived at honestly from studying these things on their own terms. If you’re smart enough to question the Bible, you should be smart enough to question the output of academia. Including “science”.
He got that dawg in him
Dempsey ... Footprints In The Sand Poem ... won't be deconstructed ;-)
2:08:02 I think that loving God is loving your neighbor and your enemy. But I promote an undivided, one-story universe. 😉
I know GT and the Halo Express
48:34 Try some Telos tea!
Bible Wars: Jewish New Testament and Jewish New Testament Commentary both in English ;-)
He died in earnest and is actively resurrecting. Sounds like a Christian to me.
It's so tragic when unbelieving false scholarship impedes from coming to personally know the Lord Jesus Christ and the God who is the Author of Holy Scripture. That's what happens when you depend on sinful human beings rather than on the Lord Jesus.
Scholarship isn't entirely useless and simplicity isn't entirely wise ;-)
@@williambranch4283 There is true scholarship and there is false scholarship.
@@anselman3156 One of my charisms is I can tell the difference (pats self on back).
@@williambranch4283 So, discerning the kind that brings you to appreciate the inspiration and authority of God's words in Holy Scripture, and so to full confidence in the Lord Jesus who speaks in it?
@@anselman3156 Scripture must be corroborated in lived experience, including Church experience. That is why Sola Scriptura is so vulnerable as a theology.
Brenden Graham Dempsey looks like a cute koala
I'll accept that, thank you
53:10 Enneagram 4 ✊🏼
First (?) 🤯
Silver
Weeks! Lol
@@christianbaxter_yt Good omen for your channel, Baxter (!) 🙂
1:01:00 I hope he eventually gets into Peter Rollins…
We’ll see. 😁
How much of his story do you believe?🙂
I bet he's just making it up so people like him
@@BrendanGrahamDempsey
i dont disagree🙂
To been seen as, associated with, remembered for or just to be relevant, it doesn't have to be all bad, intention🙂
@@swerremdjee2769 Do you actually think I made any of this up?
@@BrendanGrahamDempsey
No i dont think you made all of it up, i do think you over dramatised, oversold your stories, i think you are talker/dogperson
@@swerremdjee2769 Absolutely amazing
Psalty…. ♥️
2:21:53 George MacDonald, Justice Sermon, read it, or Lilith or both. No serious universalist that I know is soft on justice. Addison Hodges Hart did an interview with friend of Grail Country Dr. Michael Milliner of Wheaton College about why he remains a hopeful universalist and also suggests that when pressed this is also David's real position, but he enjoys enflaming some of his extreme adversaries so much he overstates his case. It's a really great interview. Addison is very TLC, he's be a great person for you to talk to: comment.org/the-skeptical-mystic/ He has a substack (the Pragmatic Mystic) so you wouldn't even need to commit to read anything long.
I think there is a huge difference between a "hopeful universalist" and a confessional universalist. :)
@@PaulVanderKlay As far as east is from the west.
@@PaulVanderKlay Granted, and Addison actually pushes back on David's position a bit in the interview I linked. As I said in our conversation, I am not interested in enforcing a Universalist confession, what I am seeking is that Universalism be acknowledged as a viable interpretation with a venerable history, both of which I think are clearly true.
2:42:12 re: the resurrection....por que no los dos?
1st?
Gold
@@PaulVanderKlay yes!