how to learn notes accurately
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- if there's any kind of "secret sauce" with my playing or my auditioning, it definitely comes down to the way i learn notes. i found this system of learning notes that is so secure, so foolproof, and helps me play so confidently that i pretty much use it for everything. i call it the ROAM method.
i also have students who play strings, woodwinds, brass, percussion, timpani, harp, piano and guitar who swear by this process. (i even had a student pick up the harmonica and tell me it was effective.)
this is phase 1 of my audition preparation process. learn the rest:
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ABOUT ME
i'm a percussionist in the metropolitan opera orchestra in new york city, and i create videos and blogs to help you stop sucking at drums and master your craft. there's so much more at www.robknopper.com
chapters
0:00 intro
1:12 why i don't slow practice
3:46 the ROAM method
5:25 R is for repetition
6:47 O is for one-Note
8:29 A is for at-tempo
8:50 M is for metronome
I learned this method in 1974! My professor called it the Sevcik method. It seems to take more time but, in the end, you've done some incredibly solid learning and probably will never forget it.😀 Starting at the end avoids overlearning the beginning of a passage and loosing steam toward the end. I've found mental practice in between 'takes' really helps.
wow! that's pretty cool, i hadn't heard of the sevcik method but i appreciate you sharing!
If i didn't read a sport study that showed better movements and shot accuracy in speed study group, I wouldn't give 'At-tempo' method a second thought. But your method seems potentially more efficient than slow study. I'll try it right away. So exciting!
excited for you to try it!
Could you Share that sport study?
Okay, I have to admit, I passed this off at first, not wanting to change the old practice habits. But, just out of curiosity, I kind of started trying this method with some mallet passages for orchestra, and then with my students at school for those sections that are always a struggle…and it works so much better!! Thanks for the video, Rob!
This video is liquid gold- I can't wait to try this out. Thanks, Rob! 💙
This is great stuff, Rob!! I actually do this already and it does wonders!! I never really labeled it, but I love your recognized process!! This was awesome!! ☺️
thanks awesome!!! glad to hear i'm not the only one.
Great stuff as always Rob! Super helpful. been passing your UA-cam vids along to my students as well
thank you!!
this was amazing to watch...........I have always been taught to use slow practice but clearly you demonstrate there is more than one way to learn well!!!
Thanks Rob, I appreciate your help.
Always interested in hearing how others think about things as they practice and how
that thought process produces consistent positive results. As teachers we know that
what works with one student may or may not work with another student. I think it's
all about unlocking what works in each specific case. Having a well thought out plan
with options gives us tools with which to help a wide range of students. This is an
interesting plan and may go against what many teach concerning slow practice but
I see how it would make sense with more advanced students. Thanks for sharing.
yes totally. each musician's brain is wired differently so the best route would be to experiment with anything and everything until you (or your students) find what works best!
Amazing. You’ve articulated something I haven’t been able to do! This helps a lot! Thanks bud!
thank you!! 🙏
Thanks Rob!! This lines up nicely with George Marsh's "Inner Drumming" even though the approachs are almost diametrically opposite. I'm going to use George's approach on excerpts. I've also been learning patterns fro the end to the beginning for a long time.
nice!
I'm finding this quite useful, I'm currently learning White Knuckle Stroll for an audition piece for a Conservatorium, lots of difficult runs and hopefully these methods can help me learn it better.
Food for thought. I’m a (bad) percussionist who has found himself preparing marimba etudes while applying for Jazz Performance on drum set. I’ll try this out as I’m re-learning my pieces for auditions after a hiatus since pre screenings were due.
Great video Rob~
You are one of my heroes brother! People that are not practicing like this, are just wasting time and suffering a lot. Slow practice is definitely good for endurance, but if you never practice in real tempo, you will not geothermal feeling of the real version.
thank you so much for the kind words felipe!!! ❤
well..Seems to work. Opening page of a Moscheles Etude in C has tempo marked dotted quarter =112. 6/8 meter with 6-16th notes per beat.
After a LONG LONG time practicing this, I never got it past 80=dotted quarter. After this video, I tried the first page as demonstrated, with metronome at 112=dotted quarter. After about 20-30 minutes, I played the first page really accurately at 112=dotted quarter. I am certainly encouraged!!
awesome! so glad to hear.
Literally slow practicing in a practice room rn. Gonna try this
I'm going to use that technique to learn the marimba concertino of paul Creston. That's the hardest piece I've ever laid my hands on
i have a double bass concerto to learn sooo... let's go!
I'm going to try this! I will let you know how it goes. Thanks Rob! This is really cool. By the way, how long did it take you to get that passage up to speed?
took me no time at all since i started at tempo! but it took me a little over an hour to choreograph the whole thing from end to beginning.
Excellent and inspiring! I need to try this out! (on percussion)
Edit: I'm so tired at teachers telling me and others to learn things slow when it hinders progress more or less...
it does work for some people, that's for sure. but that doesn't mean you won't find something that works better after doing some exploring.
Thank you for the tips. I'm studying a lot right now because I'd like to enter music school in 2 years. It's so stressful and I don't want to waste any second 😂
Hi Rob! Thanks for the awesome video!! I was wondering: how do you decide when to move on from a particular excerpt that you’re repeating? Sometimes if I repeat something for too long I will feel bogged down, and then it will start to worsen.
Also, sometimes I have difficulty staying disciplined about sticking to the particular excerpt I’m working on. For example, I may just get distracted on play on further than necessary. Any tips?
for the first question - you should have a goal of simply being able to play through. you should strive for perfection but you can't always attain it. that's why i always follow this process up with self-recording so that i can zoom in and clean up the remaining issues.
for the second question, i have this same problem. that's why i start at the end and work backwards. that way if i just zone out and play through something without thinking, it's ok because i've already carefully muscle-memorized that section and it doesn't hurt me to run through it.
This was fascinating and I think I'm going to show this to my MS choir just to try to get them to think about how to practice and learn. Having said that I as an undergrad piano student was told and had beaten into me that slow practice was the only way to get my recital ready, which I did. This clearly blows the doors off of that BUT my big question is does this apply to non-professional students? Can I use this with kids when I'm teaching piano. Very interested in your response.
awesome! here's my response to a similar question below: i typically don’t work with students that young so i don’t have much experience with that. on the other hand, i wish i had known about this process back then because it would have given me a chance to experiment with variations that might have worked for me at that level. i also have had students of mine that have taught this to younger students that really benefited from it. don’t be afraid to experiment and create variations for yourself and your students!
I have probably learned more about practicing from Audition Hacker videos than in the entirety of my undergrad percussion program. Those days, and the 30 years since, would have been so much easier (and I’d be so much better) if I’d known how to practice more effectively then.
Creakly interesting, will try this. Thanks Rob. Is there a reason why in one note section you start from the last note and move backwards to the start, what's the advantage?
yes! i tend to zone out and just run sections without thinking. if i work from the end, then if i ever run a section it's something i've already carefully muscle-memorized. if i work from the beginning then i'll end up sight reading through new sections which will install bad habits.
Interesting video and your student testimonies evidence your ROAM system does work. Is the system universal to all instruments? How does 'O' apply to multi-note chords on piano, particularly when fingers on the same hand play at different times in the chord?
About 'slow practice': I understood that, executed properly, the inter-note movements are done at tempo or as fast as possible, i.e. you jump to each next note(s) at full (or faster) speed - the only thing being slow about 'slow practice' is the absolute time between the start of sounding each note - thus proper muscle memory is imprinted. And so the idea is that the physical movements between notes are invariant with overall tempo, allowing a gradual build up of speed to tempo.
good question! it's something that nearly all of my students use but often they use it with variations and sometimes in certain situations. it's basically impossible to do this process to an entire piano recital worth of repertoire. so you can adjust by either adding more than 1 note at a time, or by repeating fewer times. or you can just use it to deal with the most complicated moments. when i'm using it on timpani, which requires a lot of different actions besides just playing (tuning w/ feet on pedals, muffling, moving feet from pedal to pedal), i consider each and every action to be one note. so even if two or more things are happening at once (just like chords with marimba or piano), i only work on one event at a time and build each thing up from there.
Thanks so much for the video, Rob! I wonder how could one apply this method to interleaved practice?
i use interleaved practice all the time! i love it. if this is the activity you're choosing to do to learn notes, you could switch between this and another excerpt or another measure. you could switch between this and technical exercises that isolate certain issues within the music. you could alternate between activities - for instance going back and forth between ROAM and the metronome technique i mentioned in the last video (about rock solid rhythm).
Hi Rob, thanks for the helpful video :)
How well do you think this strategy would work for lower levels of play? For me (learning piano, for context), I find a lot of things I try to play à tempo are too hard, even after lots of effort, so I usually can't get through them without slowing them down. For things that are firmly within the scope of my current technical ability I can see myself using this effectively, but if I try to challenge myself with harder pieces I feel like this approach might get kind of frustrating over long periods of time stuck on the same passages.
well, you never know until you try! actually, you should experiment with new methods (including this one) and variations of those methods to find what really works for you. i find that because everyone's brain is wired a little differently, your ideal note-learning process will end up looking different than mine or anyone else's!
As a beginner it helps a lot to have a teacher to show you what the efficient motions and technique you need to play at tempo. I have some beginner/early intermediate students who this doesn’t work with. Especially when playing both hands together they still get mixed up on fingering if going at tempo between just two notes.
I would say this could apply to snare drum as well since all the stickings, hand speeds, etc will change dramatically from slow to at tempo. But maybe between snare and mallet instruments is not a fair comparison?
it works for me on any percussion instrument - even timpani!
Hey Rob! Just wondering how this applies to passages with double stops or things like larger chords when approaching a 4 mallet instrument. Would you play each note by itself still or play each note VALUE by itself (i.e. the entire chord by itself)? This is really helpful, thanks
it depends on how much time you have to learn the piece. you definitely end up learning it more carefully and precisely if you’re only adding one pitch in each chord at a time, and slowly building up every chord. that’s how i’d do it for any important performance or audition.
Thank you for posting this. I am definitely going to put some serious time into this method, as it looks to be an excellent tool for practicing difficult passages. Nevertheless, it seems that you have set up slow practice as a straw man, given that your demonstration of that technique includes unnecessary & counterproductive arm motions. When I learned the slow practicing technique, it was stressed that the mallets should move from note to note at speed, with only the time between notes slowed down. In that way, the extra time is not taken up by unnecessary motions, but simply in waiting above the next note. Both methods of practice can be useful tools, perhaps even used alternately.
There is a video of me playing my first scale on Marimba on my channel!
Very interesting, but i've had many problems with passages that are very emotinal and expressive, and it's difficult to me to keep on on a strict tempo with no phrasing and then changing the way I play. It's like you said studying the same two times. What should you recommended me, to keep up the frasing and not studying with metronome or studying both versions?
when you’re doing this, you should definitely still be incorporating phrasing and emotional shape. don’t leave that out and wait to incorporate it later - engrain it from the beginning. no matter what passage i’m working on, i treat it as it’s own phrase that is separate from the rest of the piece. as i add notes, i change the phrase based on the new notes coming in.
Hi Rob, great video! I‘m wondering what mallets you are using in this video? Great sound!!
Greetings from Austria
Looks like Mike Balter mallets but I'm not sure.
thanks! i'm using these orange hard rubber yamaha mallets that i bought in japan. i'll have to check the model next time i'm at the hall. my favorite part is the color... 🤣
Another question I had (I think my first comment disappeared): do you ever engage in 'interleaved practice'? For example, doing 5 minutes ROAM on 1 excerpt, then switching to a second for 5 minutes, then back? Or is it always one excerpt/piece for each practice session?
yes! i just wrote this in response to another comment: i use interleaved practice all the time! i love it. if this is the activity you're choosing to do to learn notes, you could switch between this and another excerpt or another measure. you could switch between this and technical exercises that isolate certain issues within the music. you could alternate between activities - for instance going back and forth between ROAM and the metronome technique i mentioned in the last video (about rock solid rhythm).
@@robknopperstudio Thanks Rob!
Hi Rob. I Thanks to share this method. Sure it is going to help-me on my audictions. By the way, could You discuss about Petruska ( Igor Stravinsk)excerpts? There's something I would like to listent to, including tambourine ( dynamics) even on mallets, Please.
good idea! thanks for watching... you'll see some excerpt videos coming soon.
@@robknopperstudio thanks a lot 🙂. I love this piece. Btw I would like to learn some technique about how to play the upper line chords automactly ( because the conductor aways askes to us to play some piece at the first time) and i have some initial difficults to build the chords, notes of that given piece. I would like to see and execute it automactly, so, Petruska , for me, is a good start to pratice. If no, tell me how I could improve my skills around percussion.
Have you had any experience teaching with this method to younger students at the beginner or intermediate stage? I'd be really curious to see how they respond and whether or not there are certain barriers that need to be addressed before this works for them. I'm anxious to try this for my own personal practice and would love to incorporate it into my teaching strategies if it can work for the high school students I teach.
good question! i typically don’t work with students that young so i don’t have much experience with that. on the other hand, i wish i had known about this process back then because it would have given me a chance to experiment with variations that might have worked for me at that level. i also have had students of mine that have taught this to younger students that really benefited from it. don’t be afraid to experiment and create variations for yourself and your students!
Thank you for presenting this practice method. Are there some string players feedback for this roam practice ? I tried it and I think it's a good thing to mix with slow practice.
good question! i do think that string players often have to pair this with either slow practice or a modification for intonation. for instance, the current principal bassist of grand rapids used to do ROAM but only after working on each pitch slowly at QN = 60. the most important thing you could do is experiment for yourself to find the process that works best for you and your brain.
@@robknopperstudio thanks for the answer ! I do think also that everyone has to experiment to find what is working Best for themselves.
Thanks again for your ideas !
Great info; thanks! But one clarification please. It wasn't clear to me what "Focus down to one note at a time" actually means in practice. Does it mean play the first note of the passage, getting it exactly right; then add the second note getting everything about those two just right and repeating until in muscle memory; then add the third note, etc. until you have the whole passage built up?
i do start with one note, but then i'm adding one note at a time. so each time i add a note i have to make sure the new note is sounding right, the transition to the other notes sounds right, and the other notes (that i previously learned) are still sounding the way i want.
@@robknopperstudio Thanks. That's what I thought and was trying to describe.
I’m practicing with a lot of repetition method for every measure I encounter, but when i want to do a good execution of the piece I still end up on doing the same mistakes I worked on earlier...I’m working on Bach’s Gavotte et Rondeau on marimba. Why does it happen? How can I stop making the same mistakes? Maybe I think I’ve learned the notes but my brain still hasn’t? How can I understand the moment my brain has perfectly learned those notes??
there could be a lot of reasons for this. a big thing is that you can’t just work on a problem itself. you also have to work on the transitions into and out of that problem. first you have to identify and fix the thing you're having an issue with, but you also have to choreograph your way in and out of that part so you can recall that fix in context. eventually the fixed version will be the version that's engrained in your memory.
I'm struggling with having to practice an audition excerpt on a very crappy marimba(synthetic bars, no resonance, bad frame noise, etc). I can't get a good sound out of it, and even if I figured out how to it would be completely different than how to get a good sound out of the marimba I'll actually do the audition on. Do you have any advice for effectively practicing without access to nice instruments?
We won't always have access to ideal instruments, so try getting the reps on this marimba so you at least have the muscle memory going. Play with mallets that are least "offensive." Try visualization techniques, etc etc :)
What are the orange mallets you're using? They sound great!
thank you! they are yamaha mallets i bought in japan - i'll have to check next time i'm at the hall to make sure.
@@robknopperstudio Do you have more informations about the mallets please ?
@@LouisGuillotYT still haven’t been back! enjoying our parental leave for another month. will let you know.
Not sure how this works on an instrument say the flute as we also have to depend on pitch, breath, fingering, and mostly the individual instrument whether it will play it. I didn’t even mention breath, support, nor the action of the instrument. There are SO many variables that you did not mention nor consider. Thanks for a few great ideas !!!
of course! there will be adjustments for each instrument. as it happens, this process tends to work incredibly well for the flutists i work with.
@robknopperstudio I'm curious how other flute players have approached music with this method. It definitely makes sense to me intellectually, but where I struggle is getting my fingers to be consistently accurate at tempo on a lot of challenging things, especially at first. I wonder whether flute players who have success with this method are mixing in a fair amount of slow practice, or whether the repetition part is of really small chunks of music.
How many repetitions under how long time did it take to nail this?
it took me an hour and 17 minutes. i filmed the whole thing and calculated after because i was also curious. planning on posting a montage on instagram later this week
@@robknopperstudio that sounds quite efficient. Im using a method of slow training with continous speed up (in guitar pro) . I would estimate a couple of days for me
0:14 where was that xylophone excerpt from?
salome by strauss!
@@robknopperstudio thanks
I dated a girl three years ago and her face was the female version of Rob. They could have definitely have been siblings. Watching this video feels weird haha.
How can you practice one note at-Tempo? Lol
😉
I think he is saying to practice that one note as if it were in the phrase
surrounded by the other notes as you would actually play it at tempo.
(ie how you would use your hands,etc..as it relates to stroke type.)
This may or may not work on clarinet though but maybe so.