Crytek Partner - Use code "HUNTLAB" at Checkout for a discount. shop.crytek.com/?ref=59508 2 clarifications 1) If necro were a burn trait, you could still buy it. I’d think 2 trait points would be a decent cost. 2) I’m not suggesting that multiple of these changes should be implemented simultaneously. My goal was to identify useful options that could help bring the trait to a less controversial state across skill levels.
You didn't achieve your goal, because you did it from an anecdotic point of view, meaning your experience as a single player and maybe your pals or some people opinions you asked, and you don't often play solo (your words not mine), you have also a group play style bias, doing controversial proposals, because you are clearly biased against solo necro. Generating more polarization even. Your proposals also don't have in mind the whole community, since some of them have cascades effects, that would change the state of necromancer, (but not fix it, since what's exactly to fix?, some people love it, some people hate it, but it's how the game is) and will create cascade effects on the whole gameplay and play styles as a whole. Right now, it is viable to play fine as a solo, as a team or as a duo, so the state of the game is not as bad as some people want to make it sound. with some of the changes you implement, you are considerably interfering with the viability of solo players to be able to be a part of the community. I might be biased towards solo playing, but because I truly know that, as a solo player you have everyone and everything against you, group players have way less pressure on them. And even tho i have played around 600 hours as a trio player, i have played other 600 hours as i solo, and i know how fucking hard and frustrating of an experience can be sometimes. Even with the actual state of the game. I also used to play in year 2 when solo death was a permadeath, and it was horrible, borderline unplayable, sure there were streamers and no lifers pulling amazings plays on those days, but the game has to have a healthy community with options for everione to play not just for the best players out there. Even if that means you have to trap or sit and burn a guy from time to time.
Majority team player here, fluctuating 3-4 star with 1.3 K:D (just to prove I'm not some Hunt elitist, or a smurf king, I'm pretty average). Also want to say "anecdotal" viewpoints are valid if they can indeed stand on their own weight... if they can. First off, it's nobody else's fault if a new player isn't aware of a game's mechanics. Even if this process wasn't a natural part of learning every game ever made, Necro (and all of the traits) are clearly described in a easy to access menu. Neglecting to take a minimal amount of time to familiarize oneself with the game mechanics is well... simply one's own fault. Even if it weren't THAT easy, there's so many guides and gameplay videos out there by now it would be ridiculous to assume someone just jumps in, alone, without any prior knowledge, and could blame necromancer trait for a poor experience. The legitimately objective answer is pretty close to "git gud", but even easier. New players should "get educated" or simply learn by playing. This argument is akin to asking for a basic penetration nerf or eliminating sneaky angles on the map. Sorry for beating a dead horse. If you don't want to watch a body, set it aflame then trap it with wire/poison. It's not "objectively worse" to leave the body, you are making a value trade on ensuring that solo can't come back OR pursing the main goal of the game (bounty/extraction). Just like "solo has come back to hurt me" has happened, so has "solo was not encountered again" and "solo was defeated again" has happened. It can't be simpler, if you value the main goal, then plan your loadout to deal with ramifications of the environment. If you MUST be sure that solo stays down every single encounter, then don't complain that you spent time on it because that was your elective choice. "Banking on luck" is both a point of view, and inconsistent reasoning. Another point of view is "Banking on my skill and their mistakes". A consistent logic would be "if relying on my teammates and third party tactics to win a fight is legitimate, then a solo relying on necro and third party tactics is legitmate". It simply doesn't follow that solo necro is "luck" based and that everything else is "skill" based. Additionally before getting to your proposals, it should be mentioned that solo play is already at a significant cost. Necro is mandatory unless you are just that frigging good, Resilience is pretty close to mandatory for anyone not wanting to die from anything in the game upon revive, and Salveskin goes a long way with how plentifully available burn options are to players. Having 2-3 mandatory traits, minimum 7 trait points, to even consider playing as a solo. This means giving up a lot of other useful abilities like quarter master, silent killer, serpent, etc. on a fresh hunter or paying big for the occasional T3 hunter. That's pretty balanced already man. 1 As a burn trait it would be so rare only the highest skill tier of players would dare play solo at all, and that would also mean the supposed "surprise necro" problem would be exacerbated. Burn traits can't be purchased... if you make necro an exception and lower it's cost, then you might as well make it an automatic freebie when you queue as solo. Because NOBODY (solo or team) wouldn't buy that trait every single round. 2 Require a kill: This would completely eliminate the tactic of using a trade to take on a team. As of now, there's significant risk for attempting a trade kill as a solo. If anyone on that team is up, your gonna get burned and the traded kill will be revived. Useless. If you managed to take down everyone but the last man, and then traded, it's pretty clear you earned the revival anyway. 3 Welp, I guess solo's should just only snipe from 150 meters away then. Screw risking any fight within a 10 second running distance of another player. This also would invalidate Vulture. 4 There already is a reviving timer and sound. Solos have to wait before initiating a revive and for the standup animation to complete before they can do anything, and they take in a breath during that standup time. This is a redundant nerf that simply discourages solo play. In general however, I do agree killing with enough fire damage to ignite should either set the corpse on fire or immediately terminate having burned at least 25hp. This would give more value to both Salveskin and incendiary ammo. 5 Same as #3. Pointless to use unless you only want solos to snipe from the hills, and never go for the bounty by the way. 6 What's the point of a "dead possum" trait if it can be dispelled at the press of a button? 7 Essentially forces everyone to use large health chunks as there's no benefit to small health chunks. 8 We already have this with Vigor + Regen Shot. Doubling up on Vigor and Resilience in this state would be absurd for all firefights and result in more stalemates. If you want to 1shot a solo that's died at least once, use any weapon with 125 damage. There's quite a few of them. 9 This is just another version of #4 and only for players concerned about burning too many chunks. Look, if you can't put a 125hp or less solo down in the time it takes for him to stand up, this isn't going to help you. Just shoot or stab him, it's not hard. Reviving and recovering from a sitting duck situation, identifying the enemy position, and accurately firing back to save your life... that's hard. Legitimately since the beginning of my play time I've only died to a solo this way once, and that was because I was stupid enough to be looting him with an empty weapon equipped and he had a katana. 10 This is the closest change to a legitimate improvement, but I'm still going to argue against it. EVERYTHING is stacked against you as a solo, and 5-6 star lobbies simply will never make the mistakes you are trying to compensate for with the previous 9 proposals. 4 stars rarely make these mistakes. Every change on this list does nothing but ruin solo play entirely or just make encounters with solo's an exclusively annoying experience for everyone else. The only people that would play solo under these changes are top of the line players that can and regularly do wipe entire lobbies anyway. This helps no one.
Welp, despite all the people arguing against your points, it looks like the people that matter agree with you for the time being. I'm gonna guess that there will be some more changes still down the road, but at the very least you can rest easy in that you aren't completely crazy. Either that or the devs solely relied upon your opinion for the necro idea.
@@Taggerun What... exactly are you talking about? Nothing was changed, and as far as I know, no one "that matters" at Crytek has said there will be a change. Genuinely curious where you are getting that from.
As a solo main player the priority fix I would like to see with necro is MMR rebalance. Killing a solo after revive should not effect MMR for the solo or the killer 5 seconds or so after a revive attempt. This would keep more experienced solos in the mmr bracket that they’re suited for. I don’t abuse solo revive or quick play but playing against trios can drop me a star from as little as a couple of bad matches in a row and it doesn’t feel good to play against players who clearly haven’t gained decent game knowledge when I myself have over 1k hours in the game.
same. honestly its mostly underpowered past 3 star with it becomes exponentially worse the higher in rank AND your luck in if you get dropped after showing up 5 minutes late from the boss compounds flank only to find some jackass was in a bush looking at the comound with a shotgun to afraid to go in but in the perfect spot to drop ya through no mistake of your own. like srly if you dont die IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OPEN in between to 2 teams fighting, the chances of you resing and getting to live will be near 0 unless the guys who killed you had no burn tools left or idiotoically didnt bring any burn tools to begin with.
Honestly, if there was a single thing that probably cause the most frustration about necro is the MMR problems. If that was resolved, I think players across the board would be happier about where it's at.
So stop playing solo. Stop being a toxic player who smurfs on new players. Stop telling those players "skill issue" when they complain about dying to you. Play teams. Play pubs like everyone else. The entire playstyle of solos is to be a toxic rat and be problematic to the game of Hunt. They need to be banned from the game completely.
@@salteris how about both fuck you and also let's just have the devs fix the fucking problem they fucking caused by dealing and erasing the MMR issue that it causes and honestly in my opinion at this point, I would say getting rid of the solo handicap is more than fine Cincinnati has changed to make it far less punishing to solos even if we are at a massive disadvantage still. Get off your fucking high horse and stop trying to pretend that solo plays Evil because solo play was never made for this game and so therefore it shouldn't even exist ignoring the fact that a lot of people enjoy it because it's a lot more freeing and fun to play without having to deal with a rando and it's a lot more fun to be able to use things like Necro to take it completely in your own hands of how it is your resources get used and how it is actions like Reviving happen with also Magpie now being another thing that makes solo play more fun as you also get to have the full amount of dark site in your hands rather than letting half of it go to someone who probably is going to misuse it
One small potential improvement I've never seen anyone float around is making the labored breathing of a downed (but not fully dead) hunter audible to other players. That'd be a way to tell if a downed player can revive again that is diegetic in the game world, would tie into the game's sound-based mechanics, and would require skill to nail down in the chaos of a firefight.
As long as downed team players also make that sound, and you have to be VERY close to hear it (melee range), this is not a bad change. Ramifications: - If you know you are fighting a team, you can know if the dead player has teammates still alive (duos in trio lobbies do happen, and sometimes a trio member dies elsewhere and is left behind). - Checking a downed player requires you to get close enough to potentially die to a decent melee weapon. - Less waste of burning materials on already burned out corpses. - Intentional "corpse camping" in boss lairs is heavily reduced because only ignorant players won't check player corpses. (Corpse Camping: Solo dies to the boss, waits for a team to come in and kill it, then surprise attacks)
I would like to add another topic that is not mentioned. Necro has bought a ton of players. Before Necro it was REALLY rare to see solo player. And those players were almost only sniper. Necro made playing solo FUN and a good choice when you do not have friends on-line or do not want to find random. No necro, or a almost useless necro means that all those solos would eventually vanish except for the snipers, who were already there from the beginning.
fun fact. self revive does benefit solo snipers a biiit more than close range solos since at long range you will survive ANYTHING with resilience except a headshot. BUT being smart and planning to attack in a clusterfuck fight makes necro possible in close range fights which is damn hilarious to do XD
I used to play solo a lot before self-res was added, and I would default back to sniping for sure if Necromancer was nerfed too much. I can promise you that I am more annoying as a Mosin spitzer sniper than a close range shotgun player that has the option to revive a few times.
A very important point. I feel as if a lot of the discussion is headed by players who do not play solo regularly if at all. The ongoing discussion is so rife with arguments that just scream this player has little if any experience as a solo. Playing solo is super fun, but it is also super intimidating and overwhelming at first. My first 1000 hrs into the game I only ever played solo as a rat sniper who never won anything, and I only played a handful of matches total. Now at 3k+ hrs I play something like 95% solo, and I prefer that play style. I am fairly confident I will just go back to playing isometric rpg's or something for that 95% if solo necro gets nerfed too much.
@@juliusjokela5025 yep, I also think solo necros are kind of the perfect agents to break stalemates at compounds, they can risk downs in contested areas without really feeling guilty. I wonder if people would be as upset if there was a trait that made you self revive at another location, putting that hunter in limbo, but bringing in a new one already in your roster. Sole survivor type of rules could be enforced, kill within 5 minutes or extract with bounty to save the hunter.
I feel like this whole discussion is mainly from the pov of teams and a "I do not want to be bothered with solos" mentality. Let me adress some of the points. Necro needs 8 seconds to be available and the stand up animation is roughly 3 seconds. A marathon has plenty of time to duo tab you before you even get control of your hunter. If you kill a solo you have 8 seconds to position, reload, revive, heal or in general prepare for a hunter to stand up. With max 125 hp left, you can easily take him out, you can even stab him. He has no stamina, and is left with the last weapon/tool he used before dying. If he stands up, it's like his teammate mate it to the party, kill him a second time, now he has max 100 hp left, an easy upper body tab. -Easy to couter: fire, constantina, poison, there are endless solutions. Flare, dragon breath ammo, pistol with shotgun attachement, it is way to easy to burn people nowadays -Flow of game: Killing a hunter with peace of mind always requires to burn him. His team mate could sit at the other side of the compound and waiting. It's not a solo problem. -hate waiting: imagine you are the solo, running around for 5-15 min, get killed by some random dude, pick new hunter, wait for game and voila, easily 10 minuits till you are back in action. You on the other hand, need like 5 min to get him out of the game for sure. I do not think that not liking a mechanic or don't bother to prepare against is a valid reason for calling for a "fix". Necro is only a problem in sub 3 star lobbies, where people don't know that it is possible and get suprised. But the same is true for burning, for explosion and bullets going through wall etc. It's something you need to learn and adapt to. I could whine about setting hunters on fire and how I need to bring choke bombs and people camping the body of my team mate after setting him on fire. Honestly, Necro is useless most of the time and could need some buff, rather than a nerf. And don't forget, necro with relentless is 7 skill points already.
Yeah, great comment! Almost every time I get downed as a solo at 90 meters I selfrevive ASAP to find out three guns pointing at me at the shotgun distance. Solo necromancer actually needs a buff for close to mid fights, because nowadays it passively discourages going close and personal
Great comment but also great video about this mechanic. I quote Arrowhead. A game for everyone is a game for no one. Necro is a very delicate trait to balance, but i think we are in a very good spot now. A good tutorial for the necro with pro and vs would be more than enough, i think. I agree however with the video regarding the MMR de-ranking.
well said. Necro usually doesn't work in fights directly against a team. one mistake and your down and dead for good. I realized that people who want to change or get rid of it are those who cant deal with solos and the "i dont wanna be bothered with solos" its fairly rare to run into solos usually. fire bomb is the most effective way to deal with one cause even if the solo revives in flames he might lose an ADDITIONAL bar if you wait a bit before shooting him. the other way is death traps. concertina alone wont usually do it due to resilience but it will slow them down and they wont be able to get up midfight. If I die in close range. most of the time I just get burned, trapped and/or camped immediately.
One note: it's resilience that costs 3 trait points. Relentless is a burn trait that should be removed from the game imho because it really breaks a lot of revive counters.
8:24 The mmr advantage is not brought up frequently and i'm glad you included this point. I want to add that not only is the solo more experienced, but in the event that he dies from the lower skilled players (possibly multiple times if they camp his body), his MMR takes a huge dive towards low stars because of how the star system works. A 5 star can get into a match solo, get farmed by a team and be 3 stars by the time he gets back to the lobby, so now you have a 5 star fighting completely new players or legitimate 3 star players. Intentional or not, deranking as a solo is inevitable as you lose more than you gain.
3:44 "newer players don't know it" does not strike me as a valid point. Especially when in a team with an experienced player. You could've just told them that solo-necro is a thing and avoided all that frustration. You could have burned or trapped the solo yourself instead of letting your poor bambie mates die to them until they give up on the game :P that's on you!
Ifs such a stupid point, no game has to accommodate for newer players. When I started playing I didn’t know what trip mines were, does that mean they should be removed altogether? No!! I have to learn, they don’t have to change. Then again we’re watching a video about someone complaining about solo necro over a year after it’s been a thing. I can’t take anyone’s opinion seriously if they’ve got a whole UA-cam channel but can’t take care of solos. Solos are so easy to take care of. This guy probably still thinks the beetle ruined the game.
Yeah. It seems like most of the grievance is with people thinking that people they down should stay down, when the game's health bar system, revives, and race to bounty/extract are definitely meant to give people more than one chance. Waiting for burns is a time sink, but you have to do the same if a team doesn't all push into your funnel.
For combating solo hunters use fire, concertina bombs, posion/concertina wire and camp the body. I stopped running necro when playing solo because damn near every time I get trapped and camped
i have necro on solo hunters if there is that one chance to get myself up but most of the time i get burnt, trapped and camped anyway. mostly only use it to save my hunter and extract a match since you get burned every time you hit the floor
@@Scorched-Knight "git gud" isn't a solution to toxic scummy players. Not everyone wants to sweatlord hunt in 5-6 star lobbies. But scum solos want to sweatlord against new players in 3 star lobbies. The toxicity is digusting.
@@salteris By that logic you should be removed from the game entirely. Excluding people who enjoy a game differently than you, or worse don't have friends to play with, is an abusive, toxic, and scummy way to behave. Just curious, are you a 2 or a 3 star? Because if you haven't learned how to efficiently keep someone down then you definitely haven't made it to 4 star unless you were carried by your friends. I mean seriously, how hard is it to shoot a stationary target that can't shoot back within 2 seconds? You can't afford bleed ammo? A Vetterli carbine? Nagant Officer? Pretty much any long ammo weapon? Any shotgun? A melee weapon? You don't take traps because you are afraid you will step on them? Like really man, why are solo's a problem for YOU so painfully it justifies excluding hundreds of people from playing the game? Eh, don't bother. I'd just laugh, you'd continue being mad, and Crytek would never do what you want... nothing would change.
I think it would be cool if a Hunter that could still be revived (whether by themself or a teammate) made a very faint breathing sound. That way you can tell when someone is completely out (not breathing), but because the sound is quiet it would be inaudible in fights, still giving the necro player the advantage of surprise if used correctly. This would also obviously lower the amount of time babysitting dead bodies
I don't think it needs any changes. I understand it can be overwhelming for new players, but we were all new players once, right? We just get used to how the game works. Also, do you remember when solo necro was introduced there was a sound when the dead person left the game, like their soul just vanished? Yeah, we could have that back.
You say you don't play solo often, I mostly play as a solo. If you die, and are not really far from your killer, you are basically permanently dead... solo necro is not that strong, is easely counterable, and it will only give you a chance in 20% of your deaths, and that's a chance, no garanties... I agree with what others said about revives not counting for the MMR of the solo nor the killer, at least until 5 seconds or so, because that's what creates a bad experience for new players. Let me explain. I am 5 to 6 stars, when I'm playing in groups or random trios I tend to be 6, when I play alone which is the most part, I'm 4 to 5 stars. When i die, as i said, necro will only give me a chance two out of every ten matches i die, but i still have to try to look for those 2 times, so i tend to die a lot looking for that opportunity, that means i sometimes get down to even 3 stars... Needless to say, I usually piss on those servers, run the gauntlet, and I progressively get back to my real MMR... PLaying solo is awesome sometimes, but is mostly a burden, and those rarer victories and adrenaline rushes are what compensate for all that negative part. So solos have it every time against their odds, making it less desirable to play for all those lone wolves... and you have to account all the trading windows bullshit an a meta that is unforgiving for solo players. And we need to keep a healthy player base so that the game remains alive, and solos are a great part of any game. So Hunt showdon should propmote an apealing gameplay, not one that makes lots of people loose interest.
Good post feel the same as a solo player. I have 900 hours in the game, lowly 3 to 4 star, in all that time I have only killed 150ish bosses. Getting those kills as a solo is tough and mean a lot.
The issue with burn traits is they are practically nonexistent. They are so incredibly rare the game would return to the prior frustrations people had with training against the last player of a team, because you can *never find* necro. I don’t think that’s the solution. Taking more health chunks is also not an idea I like. You ALREADY have to play so much more careful after being hit ONCE, being two chunks down after a single death would be awful. If necro used healthchunks also, there would be zero reason to use it on your teammates. Why should I put myself at a SEVERE disadvantage for the rest of the game rather than just risking a hand revive?
The change you suggest for resilience might make downing a solo easier - but it will also make resilience near useless in your average mid-distance long ammo team fight. This situation occurs more often than the odd solo who necros in your face and then doesn't die immediately. The change would cause more issues than it solves
I definitely think that you cant give solos something powerful so they can face trios, and simultaneously make them face lower skill trios. Thats kind of double dipping in making the life of a solo easier, and as a solo player, id personally much rather fight trios i feel had the game sense to fight me back. often i feel bad for the teams i wipe if they didnt seem aware enough.
New feature, let solo necros use microphone while downed to give the 3 star lobbies ample warning they're going to get up ;3. Unironically this could be a fun mindgame until you're muted .
Am I the only one that remembers that game mechanic of seeing a wisp-like effect going off a killed hunter the moment player disconnects from the game? It was on the same event that they added rain, if I remember it correctly, then after event they just removed it. If that mechanic returned I'd probably have no more problems with solos necroing themselves. Just let me know if player is still in that downed body or did he disconnect from the game, it would not only let me know if he's a solo among messy multiple team fights, but also would let me play the game and enjoy fights instead of camping a body of a player who probably already left back to menu.
If a burning player disconnects from the loby their body will no longer burn and will immediately go to the burned out state. This only applies if they are actively burning when they disconnect.
i truly hate this damn trait so much, everyone wants to talk about the baby sitting but nobody wants to talk about when 5 teams are fighting and pushing into a compound and you dont have time to sit and give jimmy tuckies just incase he may have necro mid fight so you get shot by the guy you just killed while still in a team fight without any time to reset.
@@GamingZ_enith so considering i just said you had no time to even reset aka reload, heal, res your own team. lets be real you dont have time to do none of that and walk over in the middle of the fight and trap the body while you are being pushed by a duo shotgun. i mean you can if you want but let me know how that works out for you when your screen goes dark. necro isnt a problem when you have time necro is a big problem when you literally cant have the time because by the time you kill the people now pushing you after you just fought the others "if" you do..... little jimmy is already giving you a back rub.
@@akalixevelynn2932 right, because 8 seconds is nowhere near enough time to walk ten feet and spend a second putting a trap on a guy. I've played 500 hours, that's how I've always played it, it's worked in the vast majority of scenarios, learn to multitask.
@@GamingZ_enithMe when I spend the 8 seconds killing two people rushing in with a fucking Katana and a bayonet. Instead of trapping Jimmy's body. It's either die while trapping, or die to Jimmy when he wakes up from his nap while your resetting. Of cause this isn't bound to happen every game. But I still think it's a big enough flaw that just feels cheap to die from.
My view on solo necro was that it was suppose to reward the solo player if they traded with the last person on the team they killed. I like the fire change suggestion. For me I think removing the matchmaking bonus(as well as fix the deranking) and maybe make it so if you are solo necro you burn twice as fast.
If fire would get yet again buffed setting people on fire would have to become significantly more difficult than it is in the current instaburn meta. I agree that death should have serious consequence in the game, but even more so I think the game needs to be fun. Dying as a solo is already practically a permadeath: 4 outta 5 times you can't survive getting downed unless there's some serious chaos going on. Most times I'm burning before I ever hit the ground. As is, from the top of my head I can come up with at least 27 variably reliable or situational ways to deal with a downed solo including all the ones that set them on fire. There are plenty of resources available to combo a set-and-forget type situation for solo necro, and even more if we count soft counters like choke clouds and alert trip mines to let you know they got up. If people don't know how to utilize them, perhaps that's on crytek. But if people refuse to use them and then cry solo necro is OP, that is on them and crytek shouldn't pander to that. What you suggest about nerfing necro + resilience counteracts their exact purpose, which is to give you a somewhat comparable rez chance to that of playing in a team. Nerfing it for teams too doesn't balance it out. Team members can still revive each other time and again, ad nauseam if they have a bounty. Now, I do not think solo necro is balanced! I think it could be implemented better for sure, but the reason is not that it is in any conceivable way OP. The reason is that it is a boring and exploitable mechanic the way it is implemented now. I am really not a fan of balancing by heavy handed nerfs / buffs, and especially when it concerns majority rule (team players) at the detriment to a minority (such as solo players). These tend to create further and exceedingly dissatisfying unpredictable problems since so many game mechanics interact with one another and are built upon each other. I really liked one solution you offered, which is that solos should not be in comparably lower MMR lobbies to begin with. I believe this is far more cause for the issue than the actual mechanical balance of traits and their counters. Furthermore, solo revive should not count toward MMR loss beyond your first death. That would bring it in line with soul survivor in terms of deranking efficiency. Even worse actually, since in SS you can at least get killed by a 1star whereas in your regular team MMR lobbies (at least on EU lobbies) you're not very likely to encounter anyone more than one MMR rank apart from you... These should also preserve some of that ye olde Hunt intensity for the geezers out there since they'd be fighting more uphill battles most of the time. I'd prefer this for myself absolutely. I for one genuinely do not belong in 3 stars, no cap. I try to say this with as much earnest self-reflection and non-bias as I can. I average at the border between 4-5 stars when I play seriously (be it solo or teams, randoms or friends) and therefore whenever I drop to lobbies with players at 3* and below, the game becomes very unjust and un-fun for everyone involved. And the way the MMR swings right now I tend to drop there a lot since I'm one of those thousands-of-hours geezers who have gotten bored with the meta and just go in with like full choke bolt hand xbow and a dinger to just have stupid pew pew fun and to squeeze some novelty challenge out of the game between the new gun additions each event... And I self revive only if I genuinely think I have a chance at getting up. I can imagine the speed people drop if they purposely derank... I personally think MMR should be way less swingy for everyone, teams included. Preferably, it should average your MMR against a longer period instead of being a simple addition / reduction based on match KD to enemy MMR ratio. Perhaps each match should only count toward your MMR as if played against your own average MMR. Perhaps each death should only count within a certain timeframe from your previous death. Perhaps redskull shouldn't count toward MMR at all. Or perhaps each match should only count success/failure toward your MMR as a modifier based on your specific match KDA. Idk, I'm not a game dev. Perhaps each of these alone would already throw balance out of whack for reasons I can't even fathom. All I know is I've played this game long and passionately enough to have witnessed just how inflammatory and bandwagony the public discussion can get, and how out of proportion Crytek tends to go with their balancing when they try to respond to it. The popular hateposting target seems to be solo revive right now and that makes me worried cause when this has happened before the game has changed a lot in ways that have completely destroyed the entire mechanic instead of tweaking it. So I've become very wary of what everyone thinks Crytek should or shouldn't do.... Interesting discussion though, thanks for chiming into it. I genuinely hope they find some sweepingly satisfactory way to mix things around for us. Maybe such an answer ripples from this! GG. :3
Yeah, I definitely think it wound be bad if all of this got implemented, I was more brainstorming options that trying to say “this is what needs to be done.” Energy change has unintended consequences (like you mentioned the fire buff being too much). I’m getting the sense that I’m the odd one for enjoying the tension that comes from playing when most of my bars are burnt out. I’d encourage people to not extract just because you’ve lost some bars. Those who do are missing out IMO. I agree on your MMR comments. It’s likely if that was brought to a better place the necro conversation would settle some on its own. I’m a hobbyist game designer, so I enjoy game design theory crafting. It’s not my intent to throw shade at Crytek about this, and I hope it didn’t come across that way too much.
@@HuntShowdownLab Oh I didn’t take it as shade at all! :) I think this is definitely a worthwhile discussion to have, and there's a good reason why people want to have that conversation with Crytek. Also I think it's good you help make it more public, at least as long as the contribution isn't too biased. I hope Crytek takes a balanced approach to the problem, but I fear the approach might be some sort of stomp on solo gameplay unless solos push back on how the public discourse seems to be shaping. I'm sure to have some confirmation bias as a solo main, but what I mostly see is just largely baseless bitching about how solo is obviously OP and needs to be deleted / nerfed to the ground... Which would be flash bomb all over again. No one will use it if you make it useless by destroying the whole mechanic with nerfs. Then you have a whole other demographic pissed at you for ruining their preferred play style.
I think the only change required is giving a smaller MMR advantage to solos and giving self revive a "grace period" of like 5 seconds after getting up, during which your MMR can't be affected. It would solve the unintentional deranking problem. Otherwise, I think solo necro is fine as is. It already takes your opponents to be careless for you to really take advantage of it in a fight. A regular fire bomb on its own is even very powerful in its current state, because since it burns for a very long time, you have to get up and move yourself to survive or completely die while trying. There is also poison and concertina traps, hand crossbow poison and fire bolts, poison and concertina bombs, dragon's breath, flare guns and fusees, even choke bombs as deterrence if you need time sensitive recovery. So many options to take care of solo necro. If you dont use any of them, I think that's skill issue, sadly. As a mostly solo player myself, I've never encountered another solo and thought "that's unfair". I believe the reason why solo necro is brought up as a problem so much is because it feels bad and unfair to fail taking care of a solo as opposed to being actually unfair or bad for the game to the point it warrants a big change. Solo necro is already a complex mind game at 3+ stars and really hard to pull off at 5+ stars. A direct nerf wouldn't help the lower skill lobbies, it would only bring higher skill players down to lower skill players' lobbies, causing further MMR imbalance.
I think the biggest problem is the whole MMR thing with necro. Make the gap a bit smaller and also remove the option to dump your MMR by getting yourself killed over and over again and things would look quite different. Overall i just think necro needs to be in the game and it needs to be good, atleast for solos. Not overpowered of corse, but without people will stop to play solo or just go for sniper loadouts mostly.
It's a bit of a weird idea I've yet to see brought up, but a solo's body could move on revive. We've seen teleportation with Shadow Leap so it could function similarly. The diagetic logic also fits, you're using a grunt's life force instead of a teammate sacrificing theirs to get you back up. The Solo revives at the location of a grunt at least X meters away, probably somewhere outside of a neighboring compound. It makes the Shadow Leap sound to let you know why the body disappeared. The timer is probably extended 5 seconds so people can loot the body. In the case that a solo's body is still holding a bounty, they revive in place. Team benefits - The solo isn't standing up right next to you while you're reviving a teammate, or taking another fight. You don't have to spend multiple tool/consumable slots to keep them down. You don't have to wait for the burn to finish, you can just kill, loot, and move on like any other fight. If you hear or see the body shadow leap, you get confirmation it was a solo. Solos can't do the thing where they suicide in a boss lair to surprise you. Solo benefits - You don't have to worry about being camped/trapped. You don't have to sit there waiting for them to leave your body so you can get up. You get a fresh shot at the fight, resupply, pick a new approach, or just extract if you really want. Cons - Solos are going to have to reorient and do some extra walking, they couldn't just jump right back into a fight. It's basically a safe death cheat because there would be no reason not to revive. Solos would have to wipe a team without dying or end in a trade (then walk back) to really win a fight. Teams wouldn't be able to confirm a burnout. You're never gonna find a solo's body if you kill them at a distance. I play about equal time on both solo and teams and I never leave the house without necro. The waiting game sucks from both ends and camping isn't fun for anyone. My main concern isn't balance and advantages, it's that it slows the game down.
Finally, some good bait! To be brief, the only change I'd make would be the matchmaking weight. Incen could be brought up to its dragon breath counterpart by having shots to a downed body ignite with the same rules as standing hunters (two tap beyond x distance). Resilience countering snipers, wire, and poison puts it in a good place, but I've thought about it being regen before, too. Necro is mostly an optics problem. Any situation where a hunter is downed is made worse by that hunter having a teammate rather than being a solo. It's only because most people feel obligated or find it a fun challenge to save a teammate that teams put themselves into seemingly worse positions than solo necros find themselves in. Sniper problem? Your teammate can countersnipe or obscure the body. Revenge cause you didn't burn out? Against a trio, even after taking the time to burn out one body, still has two other members who WILL most likely hunt you down for the bounty revive. Solo necros escaping kill coffins too easily? Teammates can remove all punishment and revive with less health resources lost. People lose their minds when encountering a solo necro, but have no problems brushing aside the added threat and options teams have just because one person wiping out two or three people feels embarassing. I feel like for new player experience, most of it would be solved by enabling post death comms for teams. So, so many times I've died on the inside not being able to explain the obvious.
A thing that I personally don't like about necro, that doesn't even have anything to do with solos, is that people will just constantly try to revive you at a distance they're not in too much of danger when they do it, but sacrifice you and your health for usually no payoff whatsoever
We need a “refuse revive” type of prompt and action. I’ve been revived repeatedly into poison by inept teammates that are hiding indoors while my body is laying outside, out of their view.
Resilience being fast regen makes sense, but only in combination with necro. If one get revived normal it should still give insta full health The fire Ideas should be implemented instantly. Just recently I was baffled by a Hunter standing up while on fire and then not being on fire anymore!
I think a forced timer on necro would be cool. Like a time limit in which you can revive once you get downed. Ran into a lot of people who just stayed dead for like 10 minutes when I didn't have burn and ran into them later in the match because I was looking for a lantern or just walking away.
I think it should become more similar to team-necro. Maybe even no artificial time window. You just hold a button until necro bar is filled out (with the same time as team-necro), but if you stop at any moment it cancels. It also should have some price for that necro attempt (like slowly losing 25 hp for team-necro) or you can just do it over and over again until the right situation comes up. I don't have a good idea for the price though.
*Long rambly thoughts from a Senior Game Designer who's thought about this quite a lot* I really like your breakdown of the issues with Necromancer. I think folks can get too caught in the weeds of whether it's too powerful or not and miss the larger issues it creates. I completely agree with the issues of Necromancer you pointed out (especially for solo), but I think a lot of the proposed solutions wouldn't help much beyond rounding off some of the more prickly aspects of Necro. The core issue is that solo Necro is confusing (and therefor unusually punishing) for new players as they run into it less frequently, and when they do, the game-play to counter it is bland (burn and babysit). I think an avenue to address these issues would be to make solo self revive a built-in mechanic, where solo players can self-revive once per match. Necro would allow you to self revive multiple times, but each time you do so in a match, you must wait an additional 4 seconds before being allowed to revive (So revives would be 8/12/16/20 seconds). I would then couple this with a change to being downed and burned. Being downed for more than 10 seconds causes your character to start to lose their health bars at a rate similar to what burning is now (this naturally gets rid of Solo Necro getting to wait for long periods of time to revive since they'll lose health if they wait too long). If you burn the character, this 10 second delay is bypassed and they start to lose health chunks extremely quickly (even faster than burning is now). After all, they're burning to death while bleeding out which should feel like a moment to get a move on and save your teammate, rather than a dawdling "wellp, gotta throw a choke over there in the next few minutes". Also, if you go down in water or a poison cloud, the 10 second delay timer is ignored as your character can't breath and you start losing health immediately. Lastly, I'd consider different burning rates for downed characters, where being engulfed in flames (from a Molotov or lantern) burns your health bars at an extremely fast rate (3x current speed) compared to lighting them with a flare / shotgun round. The idea for the changes would be to make solo Necro a more common-place occurrence, which would assist in teaching new players the mechanics, while also ensuring that players have quicker, more viable options to burn and deal with downed characters in general beyond burn and babysit.
I really like that! Yeah, I agree that most of my fixes were trying to use bandaid solutions that wouldn’t require a substantial rework to existing systems.
@@HuntShowdownLab - That's a really good shout out. Smaller fixes, while less ideal, are much more likely to make it through the scheduling and trimming process that always happens in game dev.
One thing some friends and I suggested (my friends are primarily team players, I play with them, or solo mainly solo due to full team) is switch the necro timer around. Since it takes aprox 7 seconds to revive someone, make the revive button instant then have the hunter wait 7 seconds, during that 7 seconds you hear the necro darksite sound effect since that is already implemented
A no-brainer for me, unrelated to any necro changes for solo or teams, is to increase the trait price of both necro and resilience. I would argue that the trait value of either of them is higher than literally any other trait in the game, regardless of the price. To prove my point. Right now in high-elo it is almost a given that when you buy a new hunter you remove ANY traits until you get to 7 trait points to buy necro + resilience. It tells me that the inherent value of these two traits appears to be above every other trait, which logically should be reflected it the trait price.
Hear me out, just wondering. If Necro is so valuable as to be a first pick, every time, doesn't that also mean that higher point value traits like quartermaster and doctor become more rare and therefore economically speaking (supply/demand) more valuable as well? Why not make necro a standard feature for every hunter, every game, for free? Gives everyone the same capabilities, nullifying the tradeoffs, any mystery factor, and forces teams to either act decisively towards each other or risk losing gained advantages? Less camping and more blasting, plus people should be burning and trapping bodies anyway regardless if the corpse is a solo or team member. Edit: As currently implemented of course, not saying that team members should be able to self revive.
The resilience change is the sweet spot. Make it a regen rather than an instant, that way traps, and rekills are where they need to be so you can move on and not have to babysit so much. Babysitting is really my biggest problem with it and traps should be effective. To be able to stand up and walk out of a trap is the problem cause then you’re forced to babysit burn every time.
they should had team vocals and more team matchmaking mechanics (even reward for playing with a random) so that solo become more a challenge with some of your changes and at the same time people would want to maybe find a partner without feeling in a disadvantage comparing to solo.
and other than that resilience change is a tricky question cause spitzer ammo long distance plays are still too strong in the meta so camping a body for them will be so much easier if this change happened. mecanics could be find like specificely making long distance shot with some ammo types not 1 shot down someone in the reviving animation but i feel like its not a good way of balancing the game with weird specific mecanics
Hey sorry I'm late to the party. You've made some good points and I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I recently started playing hunt and have been getting my friend into it. Necro solos standing back up is something that I didn't know could happen until someone did in front of me. I was confused and completely unprepared but it only had to happen once for me to learn from it, now it's easy to look for. I think most new players would probably agree that it only needs to happen once to learn from it, after that it's a fairly intuitive mechanic and doesn't seem too overpowered with the base traits. It seemed much more annoying and broken when there were a variety of easy ways to restore health last event but I think these were just things that made necro broken and not so much the necro being broken. I do think necro needs some form of nerf since it can do a variety of uncounterplayable extract camping tactics, I won't get into the tactics much but I think Dark Sight + Bounty or vulture should reveal "down but not out" players
Author is right, perk is probably need to be changed, i think like no mmr downgrade, this is based as must be, and second when dead body on fire it stand up with fire, it will be great
Hi, im a game designer and a career 2-3 star in Hunt showdown. I have a feeling the majority of players who watch these videos are either new players who end up in 3-4 star, or are themselves higher end players; i say all this to mention that the new player experience in hunt is a very hard one to capture. Ive introduced hunt to everyone close to me, and i want to let some people know that Hunt: Showdown does not attract a mainstream or casual audience. My father is a casual gamer and cannot stand Hunt because its too slow. Whether or not you think thats valid doesnt matter because it plays into balance; Casuals make up a large majority of players in most games, but less so in Hunt. Even then, casuals are present enough that when they do play, they usually get killed by solo-necro players. And this *is* an issue as a game designer, because slowing the already slow game down by 2-5 minutes for one player when a team could get bounty and leave in just 6-10 is not acceptable for most players. From my perspective the fix needs to be short and simple, and the best fix imo is geniunely making necromancer its own perk; "You can revive yourself", and make it a burn trait you must buy multiple times or find in mission, OR giving an indication someone can revive themselves. Burning bodies and making smores is funny for some, but when i play with my brothers they can't stand it. Its just boring, especially if they just wait. This is a good video but im consistently disappointed by the dismissal by some players in the comments of not just this video but others like it. This is an issue, like it or not, and most players, the devs, and even solos know it. The idea of a self revive is great, but the execution is far too forgiving at the current moment.
The MMR one wouldn't really work IMO because it's super easy to de-rank in Hunt. I can go from mid 5 star to 3 star in a single play session if I'm having a particularly bad night. If I was trying to de-rank on purpose I could probably get down to 3 star in an hour. I feel like the biggest things that would at least help course-correct necro would be 2 changes. One that was touched on here and one that wasn't. 1 - Resilience shouldn't work with necromancer, period. 2 - Standing up with Necromancer versus a regular res should have a special noise associated with it that can be heard up to 25 meters away. This way it's not a secret when someone gets up, there's no more sneaky necro mid fight for duos/trios and at the same time there'll be a much easier way for newer players to recognize that they heard a weird noise that wasn't just the same deep breath someone takes when they heal, which is a fairly normal noise to hear right after you finish a fight.
My main issue with necromancer is that it slows down the game due to camping, and slows down growth because of course its frustrating for new players and our glorious hunt community shames these players saying "its easy to counter, get good." Heres how I'd fix it: -remove necro for solos and heavily slow revive speed for squads -buff solo ammo/tool/consumable capacity This would remove frustration of constant squad reviving, add the risk back to solo but making it more fun through consumable options and less ammo struggles. This would also speed up the game, less camping. But most of all, welcoming for new players which we need.
It's not the trait's fault, people need to get used to the mechanics that counter it, that is it, they go into a match without proper preparations and then complain about a situation the know is a factor but refuse to play around.
@@Luna-Starfrost in 600 hours of gameplay I've run into cheaters only once, and it wasn't even hacks, the cheater issue is basically isolated to higher MMRs which is why it seems to be so frequent for 6 star players, but in reality it's in less than 1% matches.
I honestly think for the solo part after your 10 seconds are up and you can revive it should start a 2nd timer that after say 20 or 30 seconds you can no longer revive. So that way if you die to a trade or a sniper that's way far out you can still res and it feels good at that point. but if your fighting a team of 3 and lose they just have to watch you for 20-30 seconds then after they know for sure you can't get up anymore! I agree with the change to resilience as well should give you a super regen or something but not full health that would really dial in solo necro alone One of the problems i see with it being a burn trait is that i feel most people would just write it off at that point for team play and i feel like that's a bad thing to do to it, I wanna see changes on the solo side but not the team side Also the handicap needs to go, There is no reason a 5 start should be fighting 2 or 3 stars, Z.E.R.O Reasons I made a really bad video on it myself lol
As a 500 hour 5 star, I honestly think people are making solo necro a mountain of a problem when, in reality, it's barely a problem at all. I don't think it's the solo necro itself that is the problem, it's the surrounding mechanics that make it a pain. Me and my duo, personally only ever had a problem with solo necro the FIRST time we ever came across it in the first week of us playing, when we didn't know how it worked. After that first time, 95% of the time a solo necroing never caused us to die because of the way hunt just works. I think the main problem is the *burning bodies* mechanic, simply carrying a flare gun basically makes necro obsolete, heck even a molotov or even lemat dragons breath if for some reason you need that fourth tool slot. If however, you don't or refuse to bring a burn item, you accept the risk that you won't be able to guarantee an opponent is finished. Getting mad at that point is just a skill issue. Now many people will probably say "Well I shouldn't have to carry a specific item just to deal with necros" and to that I say, you aren't taking it to deal with necro's, you're taking it to deal with hunts poor player removal system. I personally hold to the belief that burning bodies should only burn down to the last chunk, this would, to an extent, hopefully rethink camping burning bodies and strategy to deal with them. While also not being a frustration to the burned and the burned's teamates. As for your 10 things you listed to solve the issue, I actually think all but 6 9 and 10 would do nothing but make the problem worse. You have to think of necro from the solo's perspective too, one thing people fail to consider is that solo necro people arent like some annoying AI that you have to deal with, they are also a player (usually) trying to have fun too. Solution 1 would just further convolute the trait system and make it a chore to use it. Solution 2-5, and 7 ruin the chance of the solo ever getting to gain value out of it unless they were sniped from long range. 8 literally gets rid of the whole point of resillinance, which serves to give the revived resistance to damage thresholds upon being revived (Krag on one small bar lost and concertina fragments.) You cant "fix" solo necro for all parties, or even most parties without the remaining parties getting the short straw. You have to fix the surrounding mechanics to make it a strategy, not a chore. Until then, bring a flare gun or concertina tripwires, problem solved. Edit: Also another thing you can do without having to bring anything except a brain is UNLOAD THEIR GUNS. It's free, it's easy, and it's super effective.
I think one fix for necro would be to lengthen the revival animation and have it make more sound so that it gives the people watching the body more time to react and dispatch the enemy hunter. I also think making the sound effect for necro more obvious, so it gives you time to be alert for a soon to be revived enemy, and it makes the enemy teammate using necro a more vulnerable target since they are a sitting duck when using necro.
Easy way to fix the balance of necromancer is it burns a bar when used. so for solos you lose a bar when going down and lose a bar when standing up. This would speed up the game and balance the effects of solo self resing from safe locations. and ratty behavior. Team necro needs to take longer and be louder. maybe consume more HP from the person necroing. *not burnt though*
During the Devil's Moon event, they had a white flash effect on a body when that player actually left the lobby. I'm honestly not sure why they ever got rid of it, expect for maybe preventing some toxicity
Ever heard of a learning curve? It's when you learn the game and the mechanics. So like learning people can hear you, how traps work, how mobs work. People that whine about necro are whiny losers. I don't use it because people instantly burn, trap and camp. It's trial by fire. When I died when it was added I was like damn I forgot to watch them. Fire, concertina, and go. The give it a shot mentality works for trios and duos too. I can run into a compound with katana and hope it works. And keep them burning? Wow lets just take all your hp bars in one go and watch everyone whines about that. Making it a burn trait is stupid. And oh no he to resilience so I can't just camp a body? Seriously if you got issues with this git gud scrub.
Although I dont agree with everything in this video, i appreciate the discussion, so I'm gonna weigh in with my two cents. Firstly if someone doesn't wanna "lower the stakes" they can not take the trait, so that one is solved. for the purposed solutions. 1. i dont love this, trait slots are tight, and in reality, this doesnt really solve the issue. 2. I dont like this either, necro is one of the only possible ways to get up against snipers, so if your buddy gets headshot right away, youre done for. 3. this idea is actually good, this would basically "finish off" the solo, or allow you to push against a team, may be too strong, but i like the idea 4. this sounds good in theory, but doesnt really fix any of the issues. typically i already know its a solo, now its a matter of getting enough fire to burn. 5. i dont like this at all, its already impossible to stand up against any decent player at close range, this just makes it so they dont have to shoot you. 6. i dont like this as it tells you if a team is finished off 7. i dont think this is neccesary, a well done necro against a sniper shouldnt be punished like a solo necro in order to remove burning. 8. i dont like this at all, if youre on a body, you can use your melee tool if you have low damage, or double tap, this would be a HUGE buff to snipers. 9. this almost sounds good, until you think about getting hit with sparks incendiary and dying immediately burning, incendiary doesnt need that buff (but should work in rain and not have salveskin nerf it) 10. this idea is ok, although i think the bigger problem is deranking, not so much the mmr reduction, which i would like to se fixed. One additional change to consider is, if youre burning, you cant be necrod, this still means a team needs to invest something to finish you off, and would make it so you can push a team once their friend is on fire, not saying its perfect, but could be good! great video!
There was a sound effekt and light effekt if People left the game or was dead. That should come back. Then i knew when the solo was dead or just played dead
That was tied to spending an event point. It just so happened that everyone had death cheat and so during that event, it seemed like that was just a sound to tell you when someone left the lobby. I wouldn’t be against that becoming a default noise when players leave.
My main issue with solos is that during chaotic fights it's impossible to know who's really a solo or not unless you've been playing for 5k+ hours. I also hate waiting for a solo to burn out. Solution: Teleport the solo outside of the compound. This makes it so that solo's can't just get up and destroy a whole team with a katana while they're distracted with another team. It also makes it so that the solo can't be burned out and camped by the trio. Might have to get rid of trio necros though.
The only changes I would like to see are: 1. Solo with necro doesn't get an MMR advantage 2. Some sort of delay where MMR is unaffected for a short period after revive 3. Eliminate the burn trait "relentless". It breaks the flow of the game that someone can stand up at 150hp. 4. Eliminate rampage from the game. It disproportionately benefits solos and has no counter. Admittedly this doesn't really have anything to do with necro, but it makes fights unpredictable in a way they breaks the enjoyment of the game. Anything beyond this - particularly turning necro into a burn trait - is taking it too far and will make the game uninviting for newer solo players. To be clear, I play about 50/50 solo and duos/trios. Solos are mainly a concern because I know they are higher skilled players than me, not because they might stand back up.
There are a few problems with removing the solo modifier. First of all a solo would have to play anywhere between 10-20 games before their MMR drops to a point where they meet worse players, so they have a decent chance to win. A solo is almost never going to win if all 3 enemies on an enemy trio are of equal skill. This creates a problem where jumping from playing with friends and going into solo lobbies is a pain for multiple hours, you would have to endure some absolute meat grinder lobbies until the MMR drops. Secondly, solos are going to drop in MMR rather substantially regardless of wether or not they fix how volatile the MMR system is, or if self-res is a thing or not. Solos are at a HUGE disadvantage, and to have a decent chance at winning in this game, they will have to meet players that are less skilled across the board. Even before self-res was added I pretty much always dropped down into 4* and occasionally even 3* , even though I never dropped below 5* when playing in a team.
@@bluebird2540 I'd agree that removing the solo modifier completely may be too far. Perhaps treat a solo as a duo. As it stands right now I have about 2x the win rate when playing solo vs trios as opposed to playing with a friend in duos. That said I'm typically high 4 to low 5 stars. I can see if you're playing as a solo in 5 star lobbies it would be a different experience.
I like the idea of Necro being a burn trait with charges, but only so long as you can still purchase it from the trait menu, and. Ot have to rely solely on rng from trait spurs. Honestly, I think MORE traits with limited uses could make for interesting choices, since it affects how many other traits you can take!
I have never had a problem just burning every dead body i see. It also stops rats from looting my kills. This game is already slow i dont barely waste time burning bodies. Its just people who value other items over burning items and then complain cause they refuse to bring burning items. Just bring burning items and you cant lose unless you are somehow not conscious while playing which hunt players seem to love doing. Plus you cant complain about necro when you use it too (to everyone) thats just you whining about being scared to play the game solo. You never mentioned how trios would use necro with the event to never die and made fights last forever. Nerf necro for teams not solos lol.
Yep necro only becomes an issue when there are free ways to get bars back that you can carry into the mission plus the infinite red bar rez from the previous event. Otherwise it's a skill issue.
Necro is an issue when you get third parties while sitting on a body. I don’t know about you but if I kill a duo or trio I loot, burn and leave so I don’t get gang banged by the lobby at the sound of gunshots.
i hate playing Solo because everytime i do, i get burned. And camped. But when streamers do it, they barely ever get burned 😂 i don't get it. Maybe its about the lobbies but idk.
Necro impacting MMR ranks is an issue. I like having the opportunity to put out a burning body before reviving it fully, but it seems silly that this is done instantly when starting the revive. It should take additional time to put the body out and then do the full revive. I can spend a fraction of a second putting them out, canceling the revive, and then revive them later in the current state. When using necro to put out a burning body I'd like it to make an obvious sound like a gust of wind or a poof sound. When a body stops burning with no one near it it's hard to tell if they burnt out or necro is happening. It should immediately make a loud sound heard at distance letting players be warned that necro has started. I believe this is only needed for burning bodies.
The difference being in team fights the fighting is over once the team is dead. No wasting time camping a body of one guy that can stand himself up several more times, further draining resources.
@@bucky97 But it's already been the norm BEFORE necro that you should burn bodies you find alone, because they could have friends could come for the revive. That was time you should already have been spending
The one difference is team fights CAN resolve really quickly if the team misplays. Solos can't be dealt with quickly if they play recklessly, but teams can definitely take way more time to fully remove from the game if they play well. The issue is a downed teammember still haa teammates that can kill you. People somehow get offended if the solo can escape their watch/trapcoffin and manage to kill them, even if the team situation took much less skill/chance.
I've always suggested the changes to on-fire like you mentioned being an important change. The absolute most annoying thing is watching the solo body, them reviving multiple times, and running out flares and having to have one person camp the body as the other finds a lantern. Or a trio with 2 people getting necro'd every time they're almost out of a bar from being on fire. It just sucks. I also think the way revives in general can be changed. Instead of just deleting a health bar, it should add a new type of permanent charcoaling equal to the size of the bar, and turn all current charcoal into permanent charcoal. So if you had a small bar, died, and a friend picked you up, you'd have 125 normal HP and 25 permanent charcoal HP instead of a fully deleted bar, which if functionally identical. But if instead you died, were on fire for 10 HP, then were put out, then revived, you be at 115 HP, with 35 permanent charcoal. It makes fire, fire ammo, and burning bodies stronger, significantly reduces the time needed to watch bodies being necro'd, and incentivized hunters choking teammates ASAP, since every second counts.
When they likely reintroduce restoration seals, this could probably work, but is probably a little overtuned otherwise. Having permanent intermediary damage without needing to burn through an entire bar after each "rest" would put small health chunks even further ahead. You'd also have weapons balanced around being just a few points under 125 have more opportunities to pin downed hunters from further away while only needing to down once to do so.
my main issue with solo necro is the lack of info. I think if there was some indication that the person can revive, itd be much less frustrating. Alternatively, I think its focus should be moved from keeping you in a fight to keeping your character alive. Making them wait to rez so their focus becomes "that saved my character so ill leave" instead of "let me rez and shoot these guys in the back". Coming from a solo player, most of my solo necro value comes from trades. so i was already using to save my character instead of keeping myself in the running for the bounty.
ABSOLUTELY NOT. That's the wildest buff I've ever heard of. You want solo players to have 5 guaranteed chances to come back and kill? Dude, like... calm down. That would be a nightmare! Boss spawns when all clues have been discovered would be interesting tactically speaking, lore breaking, and remove some RNG value to the player spawn system (a good thing). Not sure how I feel about it.
@@murdurmuffin7872 Teleported away from the battle so they have to re-engauge vs popping up 8 seconds later in the same fight, magically not on fire, just to shoot you in the back while you fight the bounty team.... Yeah.... Teleport sounds loads better.
@@jareddehart9107 How are there this many people having a hard time dealing with necromancer? I genuinely don't understand it. I don't even have 500hrs in the game yet and I've never had trouble locking one down. It's extremely simple, and your options are many. Step by step instructions: 1) Kill him. 2) Burn him. 3) Trap him. (skip if you don't have or cant find any traps wherever you are, but damn really? You didn't bring any?) 4) Aim at the corpse until it burns out, or just simply leave the area. If the corpse even twitches, just shoot. That's it. He's dead again, so you burn again... repeat until he's burned out or you are bored. Giving a solo the opportunity to reposition and approach the fight again from any angle, 4 more fucking times? You are blatantly out of your insane mind. You don't realize it, but you are advocating for solo's having straight up cheat level powers.
@@murdurmuffin7872 First off, I never said 4 more times, that's entirely something you added. Furthermore I think you forgot how far away a supply point could end up being from a fight. They flat out might not be able to reengage at all if the bounties are already running for or near an extract.
@@jareddehart9107 Ah, you are just unfamiliar with the game then. When a hunter is revived, for any reason, one of the health chunks on their bar is burned. The "last" (left) health chunk is always a big one (50hp), but the others can be small ones (25hp). Hunters start with 150hp regardless of the size or number of their health chunks. Most who know what they are doing will respec the top 100hp to be small chunks to give them 4 revival chances in a match, with the 5 death being a complete burnout. Your change removes all risk whatsoever for a solo player. They can never be burned out by other players, and will always survive the match if they aren't a complete idiot. This would allow solos to be hyper-aggressive without a tradeoff, and can essentially hunt down every player in the map before taking an uncontested bounty. You gotta realize other people don't think like newbies. They aren't going to take death = teleport powers and just leave you alone or be scared. I for one would abuse the absolute hell out of that system, hunt gods help you if someone like Psychoghost or Rexnor had power like that. This is a REALLY, REALLY, BAD IDEA that would accomplish the opposite of what you want guaranteed.
every time they add content to the game, its only ever helped teams, until they added necro for solo, was the first real time that solos got any kind of buff. if u die to a player while watching their body u deserve it, we have all failed at paying attention. and we all have gotten up and killed the one watching the body. and its always the watchers fault. if a team doesn't insta burn{which is cringe but necessary} then its their fault, if u dont bring some kind of fire, if not one of ur teammates doesn't have at least one for of fire or trap its their fault, not the solo who is already outnumbered and outgunned. if its a several team fight and a solo in there, the solo is still outnumbered and outgunned even if it gives the solo slightly more oppurtunity to come up and turn the fight around if anything needs a nerf its the mmr system, u can go from one star to the next in one good game, and lose a star just by dieing off of necro, its not fun to kill one solo, then be forced to rekill the same solo 4-5 times to make sure he doesn't kill u, force u to rank up and put u in a rank u don't belong then actually be forced to lose, that's not at all fun and that is what needs to change the most far more than the mechanic, u should not be able to rank up off one successful game u should gain mmr based on the highest ranked player u killed per match once instead of gaining mmr for 5 kills on the same person, and u lose mmr based on the lowest ranked player that killed u assuming u died more than once a match easy mmr fix
Yep, good post, except instant burns don't do much besides starting the time pressure sooner (since standing extinguishes). What would be the "correct" play would be smoking, trapping, or poison cloud, since those all actually can punish a quick necro.
@@LeMicronaut yes but i did say if someone doesnt bring anything to deal with bodies than its their fault, but instant burnign although cringe, is one of the few things u can do to get the show on the road to making sure that player is eliminated
I like the idea of necro as a burn trait. I definitely agree that the mmr bit needs tweaking, but I'm not sure about the rest of the ideas. I think if Crytek made necro a burn trait, it would solve multiple things. I think they should make solos only lose mmr on the first down so people stop deranking
I feel like all arguments against solo Necro are invalid on some level because the people arguing against it view Necro as the problem, when the reality is that it's everything around Necro that is the issue instead. Combine that with a lack of critical thinking and a lack of knowledge of game systems in those groups of players, and I've found myself arguing with a lot of players with more brain rot than a Grunt. I feel like your proposed changes to fire, massively reducing the MMR adjustment that solo players get in general (giving solo players with Necro a different MMR adjustment is asking for trouble), either removing or massively reducing the MMR loss after the first death, and adding some kind of indicator for when a solo Necro player leaves the match would entirely fix solo Necro.
I don't think I agree with this. Camping a dead body, waiting for it to revive, it's not hard, making it easier for newer players is spoiling bad players. A game should never be balanced focusing newer or casual players, otherwise veterans will exploit those "newbie balances", that's exactly the problem with that garbage Dead By Daylight. You play, you make a mistake, you die, you learn from it. Things like "ugh, this is annoying" shouldn't be a reason to "fix" something, otherwise we would have patches and patches for shotguns, katanas, etc. You have 8 seconds till Necro can be active + 2,5~3 seconds for the revive animation. If that's not enough for a duo, trio or even a solo prepare for the kill, that's probably on the player, not the game. My wife for example, she's a great Hunt player nowadays, and she got killed by a solo necro a few times, she didn't kill them with one shot, they survived and killed her. Now she learned how to anticipate, reload, heal, before the time they take to revive. In my opinion, that's part of the learning curve. Though I would suggest that Necro should have limited activations, and MAYBE teleport the hunter to another part of the map before revive, because it's TOO EASY to just sit there on top of their bodies, waiting for them to revive just to instant kill them. Nothing you can do when they're burning your body, and pointing a gun at you, just waiting for you to get up.
Thank you for this video. Although I have to disagree for most or your changes some of them I think might be a good middle ground. However, what I think will happen the moment you nerf necro just a bit too much you will get the old solo-sniper play. I know I will fall back to that simply because it is by far the safest play style. Solo necro allowed for aggressive shotty solo runs without being Rachta^^. And if you argue "git gud"... well okay, solo sniping it is again. There are so effing many ways to deal with the revive, and the flare pistol is the insta-burner. I honestly see the biggest problem in the MMR-mechanics. If you end up with 6* players in 3* lobbies... that is absolute bs imho. Anyway, superb work, thank you
Just 2 things would significantly reduce all the (unfounded) hate on solo necro. Fix the MMR deranking (only first death counts to lower rank), and update the tutorial to actually incorporate solo necro in the explanations. Or at least somehow make solo buffed traits MUCH more noticeable for new players. Not reading what a trait does is not an excuse for losing against it, and this is the number one major reason new players get surprised by a revive. As for the "let's give it a shot mentality", don't blame the skill, blame the way people play.
i think necro should be limited to one use per game and burn 50hp regardless of health chunks similar to red skull revive, after that it's killed as solos and manual revive as teams. That way everyone gets one extra chance, not 5
I like the idea of making it so that MMR won't go down if you are killed within a certain window of rezzing in order to prevent MMR tanking. I also think it would be good to make solo rezzing cost a bar (in addition to the one you normally lose to getting downed). I don't find getting killed by a solo that rezzed all that frustrating usually. But when I get downed by a solo that I have beaten several times already because another team showed up after I've been dealing with this solo over and over again and I have to deal with them, giving that solo the chance to rez for the 4th time.... I find that very annoying.
So what I've noticed is usually there are enough tools to deal with solo necro enemies when you win against them in relatively close fights, but not so much at longer ranges, which leads to one person or another being in an extended unfun scenario depending on which kind of fight has taken place. It's not fun to be taken out of the match before you even had a chance to fight back, or to die to a trade, and necro alleviates that, but it also isn't fun to sit and wait because either you have to watch a body or greatly increase your risk of losing, or otherwise can't revive yet because you're helpless to fight back for much longer than it takes for them to just shoot you again. I want to try to alleviate all these issues so it's more fun for both the solo and the teams when interacting in fights with solo necro. My ideas are as follows: 1. Time before you can revive as a solo is the longer of either 10 seconds, or a number of seconds equal to 1/3rd distance to the killing shot. This will give teams a chance to close distance on solo snipers trying to get pressure-free revives. This is the majority of the complaints I hear about solo necro that actually has no counter and plagues both low and high mmr. 2. after the time until being able to revive is up, you have a window of around 20 seconds or so that you must revive in, or else you lose the revive. This is mostly a spitball and the window for revive can be whatever seems most balanced, but this should cut down on the waiting. Most of the fun and dynamic plays I've seen with necro aren't seen after the downed solo has been waiting for 40+ seconds. 3. Reduce the time during revive animations where the solo player can't do anything. I know, suggesting a buff probably sounds bad, but when playing solo it does feel bad when you go for a revive but the enemy team has enough time to reaction shoot you 3 times over before you can do anything. This should make traps a better alternative, make camping the body (which is the boring method) a little more risky, and give solo players a little better chance to have some agency in those situations. I had thought before that making necro a burn trait would be a good idea, but I've since changed my mind. I believe that would put necro in a position where, for newer players who might want the revive more to help ease them into the game, it will be much harder to obtain or force them to continue spending points (depending on if it's available for points still) putting their hunter behind in traits compared to more experienced players, but it will be easier for more experienced players, who are less likely to be using it as a safety net to ease them into the game, to get it. The gap between players who are good enough to manage their hunters and traits well, and those who aren't would be huge. These are just my thoughts on the trait, if any of you made it this far, thank you for reading.
My only problem with solo necro, are those players, who willingly derank with it. It shouldn't be a bunr trait, there should be a cap, that makes you lose a certain amount of MMR per match and not lose MMR after each death.
I say a way to make Solo necro more bearable is to have a cap for how many rezs you can make a match, like an in game life system that doesn’t match your current HP. So let say at a basis for this idea, make it only possible to have two extra lives, and even if you have a health chunk to use, if you have already used up your two lives that’s it. I do like the idea for still being on fire when necro’d, either solo or from a teammate.
@@psyantologist And in case you haven't noticed, that makes you able to gain a total of f*cking FIVE extra lifes. And in case you haven't noticed this either: That is way too much.
@@Luna-Starfrost4 extra lives, five in total 125, 100, 75, 50 (and recall each one is weaker). If you assume each teammate gets revived once cause they aren't poorly positioning or getting necro'd against a team that isn't camping, that's a difference of 3 "saves". As a solo you can't really apply pressure to people who downed you, only hope another team intercepts.
Doesn’t need a change just put all solos in a game with each other and teams with the teams let the solos deal with standing up 5 times in a row with each other don’t punish teams for having friends 🤷
Maybe something along the lines of using or last kill as an sacrifice could help balance it, since as a solo you would still be able to revive after a trade but players can't constantly revive as the need a kill before they can revive again, more thought needs to go into reviving then Edit: I see that this is the 2nd option for fixing it, my bad
Nothing wrong with necro. It's easy to burn bodies and solos are only getting up one time maybe after you burn before going back to menu to go again. People have adapted to play around the mechanics necro offers at this point and if not then it's a skill issue. Now when events that have easy ways to get bars back is the issue when combined with necro. Being down a bar is a severe disadvantage and many just extract because of it.
if you solo necro you can only restore health bars through boss banish, I would even argue that you can't restore bars by any means (other means such as event traits or the stash bandage don't work). That's a must... do I need to remind everyone solo necro with the trait that literally healed you from fire? yeah
As a long time player I've been frustrated with and greatly disliked the direction of balancing and the meta of the game for years now, with solo necro really being the final nail in the coffin that got me to quit. I come from a time in the game where the Double Long Ammo (Mosin or Sparks w/ uppercut) was the meta everyone hated, long before special ammo was anything more than ammo for the Dolch, Nitro, and crossbows. The game feels far, far, more forgiving than it once was and while I still feel necro (solo or groups) doesn't have a place in the game I do really like some of your suggested changes. Ultimately, I feel like self reviving was a band-aid fix when instead Crytek should have added a proper solo mode rather than the one that nobody likes to play lol
@@FriedaFlitz Sniping was annoying long before necro and isn't why I hate the game :p I quit because the devs consistently make changes that make the game feel more casual and less risky and I don't enjoy it anymore (don't hate it tho, love the aesthetic and lore still)
As someone who plays solo and got no friends to play with, I think necromancer is balanced. When I play solo, It's kinda unfair to play against two or three players at once, especially knowing that I'll get bee in my face and nade in my pants and on top of it being flanked. I have to be able to compensate for lack of manpower somehow. Plus each time I die, I get a penalty to my MMR. Maybe a good fix will be to have a solo trait that would double and triple your health when you play in a duos and trios lobbies.
my biggest problem with the burning in this game is that its too easy to burn now. All it has done in my experience is that the enemy team just hides waiting for your teammate to fully burn out and do it again if another squad mate gets down. 5-6 star lobbies of passive players doing nothing but waste time. I rather be pushed hard and immediately get downed as a full team fight or as last survivor just blow myself up to start the next match than to deal with that play style. IDK if people care too much about losing a loadout or their K/D to play like this but its so boring. 5k hours into this game and this has been my worst experience with this update thus far and it sucks because I genuinely love this game.
I agree with you on the necro front. If it was a trait that you could bring charges of, and was a burn trait, I think that would be fine. It would suck however to have to have it take up multiple trait slots when stacking, as I recall other traits that you could stack doing. I think it's mostly fine now as a non-solo unless you get spammed into wire/someone's waiting weapon. Regarding fire: I almost think you should stay burning when downed/revived as well. It would be more of a pain to deal with as a solo or in teams and the chunk burning of things like dragons breath can be very intense. I just recently was in a match where I was hit by the bomblance dragon's breath ammo, then immediately followed up with a two tap from a bornheim incendiary ammo. I was then down to my last bar if I had been res'd. From FULL Health. seems a bit much, but I've not seen that situation happen a lot.
I'm pretty indifferent about solo necro tbh. Sure, it creates the annoying wait for burn out waiting games but solo necro rarely works. However, the waiting games should be solved in some point - like necro can only be used in a certain time window (10-20 seconds after death). However, team necro... you are at full firepower and still got easy range rezzes of. Teammates can apply pressure and cover for you when you stand up so it works way more than it should. Also it reinforces the long ammo meta since bodies suddenly standing up with 125hp (resilience)... God, I hate that trait. The game before necro was way healthier in that aspect.
I actually really like the idea of changing the revive timer. Make it so the revive button is available instantly, but pressing it starts a 10-second timer during which a sound effect is played on your body, and then you stand up once the timer finishes. That way, solo necro would be counterable in the same way that team necro is. I also like the staying on fire idea, though I think it should be clarified that starting a normal team revive should still put out the fire, so the person would only stay on fire after a necro revive and not a normal one. I also agree with removing the MMR handicap for solo players with necro, though for sake of logistics it would make more sense to make it a weak modifier (same as duo invite and trio random) so that solos in duo lobbies are less likely to go against players with more MMR than themselves.
You discussed the solo MMR penalty, but didn't touch at all on the impact necro itself has on MMR. There's a concept I like to call "fight winrate at equilibrium MMR" which assumes that the player has played enough of one mode exclusively (no mixing solo and teams, no quickplay) for long enough that their MMR has come to a stable equilibrium where it deviates from on a game to game basis but still hovers around the same number. What this means is that for every fight a person gets into, the expected value of the MMR they gain from that fight has to be equal to the expected value of MMR lost. This makes it easy to see why the MMR penalty exists. If a trio fights a trio, each person will get on average 1 kill and on average 1 death, and both teams have a 50% chance of winning. Same with two solos fighting. But when a solo fights a trio, they need to kill 3 people to win the fight and will often get 1 or more kills but still lose the right. But they're also capped at at most 1 death per fight. What that means is that the probability of losing has to be equal to the weighted average of the probabilities of getting n kills, weighted by n. That's *real* big. For every won fight with at least 3 kills, the solo player has to have 3 lost fights with 0 kills. For every lost fight with n kills, the solo player has to have lost n fights with 0 kills. At equilibrium MMR without necro or an MMR penalty, solos will win fights far less than 20% of the time. And remember, extracting usually requires winning more than one fight. Crytek's first fix was the MMR penalty. It basically means that solos gain 1/3 the MMR from kills as they do lose for a death. It means that one 3 kill win needs only one 0 kill loss to balance it out. Fight winrate at equilibrium MMR is still pretty low for solos vs trios; it's still a lot less than the 50% that trios have against trios, but you'll extract more than the abysmal 3-5% of the time like you would without it. But then they didn't stop there, they added necro. Now a loss can be up to 5 deaths. That's 5x the expected value of MMR lost per game, since now each death can essentially count as 5. And at equilibrium, that means they must be getting 5x *more* expected MMR gain per game. That's enormous. Solos go from being stomped with 0 kills in an average game to winning at least 1 fight in an average game. This alone is why necro is the strongest trait a solo can take, even if you never expect to survive standing up. No other trait can come close to quintupling your kills per game. A lot of people have suggested removing the loss in MMR from repeatedly standing up. I think that's an alright idea, but I don't want to go back to solos being able to lose only one death's worth of MMR per round. While it's not as bad as it could be with just the MMR penalty, the MMR penalty is not high enough to make it a truly reasonable solo experience. I prefer ideas that cause the deaths per game to be greater than 1 but not as extreme as 5. Making it a burn trait is reasonable for that purpose, or otherwise limiting the number of times you can revive. Though I will say that while forcing every solo player to deal with a 4 trait point tax on every hunter won't affect balance (MMR will ensure the same winrate whether or not the trait is burned) but does make playing solo less enjoyable. I favor just having necro revives burn off a bar in addition to the each down burning 25 hp. That means that you could stand up a maximum of twice per game, down from 4 times. I think that's a value that could be reasonably balanced.
Making it a burn trait would make it completely redundant and it might as well get removed. There is no reliable way to get a burn trait and I am not going to run around and farm meatheads for the chance of getting Necromancer. If there was some more consistent way to get burn traits, then yes maybe. Burn traits is something you get when you are lucky, but you can't rely on them dropping to get your bars back either (which is why I think they're somewhat of a failed mechanic currently). They didn't remedy(pun intended) the current situation where players have been asking for ways to get bars back at all. I would be fine with necromancer being nerfed to the ground if they changed the current trade system to how it was prior to the middle of 2021. Dying to someone with hing ping almost a whole second after killing them on your screen feels awful, and Necromancer is indeed a bandaid fix to that problem.
Being a burn trait doesn't necessarily mean that you have to find it in the world which I think is what he meant. You can still buy it with trait points but you then lose it after using it so that way at most you could only stand up 3 times each game.
@@devynmohnacky4652 @HuntShowdownLab That is an idea I could get behind then, as long as I don't need to rely on rng to get it since it's such a vital part of playing solo at this point. It was just a tad bit confusing since the only way to get burn traits currently is finding them in the world, killing meatheads and occasionally as a drop from Scrapbeak.
A burn trait is far from a good idea, with how they work - sorry to say. Unless they completely rework how they work. "Oh but then it's rare!" And then you lose a massive percentage of players who want to even play solo anymore - not everyone has a teammate, why are we so intent on making it impossible for people who do not have a steady group to play? The only genuinely realistic and reasonable changes listed are the regen versus instant full-health from resilience, but even then, that doesn't fix the body-camping issue, people are still going to camp bodies then, removing any kind of counter-play for the solo player. Matchmaking penalty is definitely a step in the right direction - I, a 5* consistent solo player should not be seeing high 3* players in my lobbies. They should also just make Necromancer something you experience in the tutorial - have it be one of the first things you see. You are shot dead after acquiring the perk, and it is explained that "you are not down and out" and a brief rundown of the mechanics, show an AI using it too.
Necro is very important to enjoying solo play for me. It may be interesting if when you self rez you semi become a zombie. Not sure exactly what that would entail but my thoughts are going to having a speed or stamina debuff until you can drink at a healing spring or something that are around the map similar to how supply depots are. It should be yes I can revive myself but to be back to 100% I have to perform some action. Loot/eat a fallen hunter or horse or something. Just an idea I wanted to share. I really enjoy your content - well done as always!
I'm not great at hunt. I'm a middling gamer at best but when playing in teams it is often a fun challenge to go up against a skilled solo, like a mini boss fight. I do think necro should be fixed to be a burn trait or at least limit its charges but the MMR difference always feels fair mostly because of hunts design. All my deaths are earned, I failed a read or I failed to land the shot. I don't think dying to a solo popping back up is unfair, in fact I think its my fault for not bracing for them coming back up. Sometimes I have really funny encounters with a solo, a frantic fight over the body as the solo revives unexpectedly and downs my partner. I think only one or the other of the proposed changes should go through. Necro at higher levels is fine the way it is since more skilled players know to burn/set traps and also have better aim and gamesense so there is no need to nerf it. So fix the MMR system. Or go the other route and leave the MMR system as it is and nerf necro. I prefer a fix in the system rather than nerfing a symptom.
0:43 in casual games that matters cause its EXPECTED that you will have people who will never pursue getting so good they become a part of the upper echelon of players but hunt is not only inherently competetive but MEANT to be inherently hard and at even just 4 to 5 star, necro is completely trash 9 times outta 10 cause either at that point, your good enough to not even die most games if your a solo player who has made it to that rank by yourself AND in the cases where you do die, unless you are both willing to wait for literally 15 minutes usually while also ensuring you die in the middle of 2 teams so niether can burn you out and the one that showed up to kill the guys who killed you push them away from your body not realizing you can res meaning its honestly really BAD but CAN make the game more enjoyable when ya get domed by a bush wookie sniper and save your ass in those critical moments if you use it VERY intelligently and tactically to maximize its benefit. beyond that the concept of needing to burn dead players AND that anyone can res even if no one has shown up is always going to be there and if they are a solo, even if they can res in just 8 seocnds, it still shouldnt matter if you are even half awake and paying a tiny bit of attention to them after insta burning them or placing a concertina trap on their body. full stop the only reason people complain is because they want a boogeyman to blame for their own trash play or lack of consideration when they were building their loadout...
2:44 this was ALWAYS a thing with necro and the base fact that you NEVER knew who DID or DID NOT have a teammate waiting to res em... this IS NOT new to hunt in any way but the people who most often run into solos now a days are the low level new players who dont know this and so they blame necro cause necro fucks up the mmr with that is actually the one change i feel it NEEDS as a 4 to 5 star player before necro was changed who now regulars 3 star cause i like playing solo v trios and even when it goes right, im liable to loose a star just through the base way that necro was made in a way that never considered the mmr which was fucking stupid and despite now years of us solos saying for crytek to change this and simply remove the mmr loss if you necro revive, they have yet to make that simple change and so the low level new players complain and bitch and moan cause they dont realize necro is so damn easy to counter that its not even funny...
beyond that not only does hunt have a solid player base but also its pretty much as on the tin as fucking dark souls, prepare to die edition just how seriously hard this game is meant to be and so either they can look up guides or quit and that might sound harsh but quite frankly, there are SO DAMN MANY things like this in hunt that make people quite like the leading the shots or that quick TTK or the power of shotguns, bows and crossbows that in the hands of skilled players is immense but in the hands of noobs is all but useless to the trades to the sound design requiring to much intuitive learnign that flaout, getting rid of one issue that makes em quit means nothing and both only waters down the game for an audience that just flat out are not EVER going to be hunt players while also ruining what those who DO play it like cause again, its a competetive game meaning you HAVE to build around the best players and EVERYONES goal should always be improving to the point that they are a member of those good players who the devs have to balance around.
4:35 NO YOU FUCKING DONT... THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE AS NECRO HAS ALWAYS BEEN A THING SO YOU DONT KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO STAND UP RANDOMLY EVEN IF YOU CAN WATCH EM.......... this is the biggest flaw in the argument of people who hate necro or think it should change like you where you guys dont comprehend this has always been a thing and act like its new when its really fucking not.....
4:48 YES IT FUCKING IS AN ANSWER!!! if your not in a fight than sure its not but again, if your not a fucking incompetent moron, you were already burning all bodies out ANYWAYS cause ya never know who has a teammate and wanna make sure that a team doesnt run up and save their friend and than flank you at boss compound or something and while in a gunfight it 100% is a solid answer and choice since you cant keep everyone down permanently so easily when facing good players who will push you and you need to both accept that and bring guns that can down someone after 1 or 2 shots like the springfield or the sparks or the mosin or the uppercut/uppermat pistols or literally anything that does 125 dmg to the body at its max distance before its damage falloff so that way even if they do get back up, one shot to the chest is all ya need to drop em again which is why so many people just extract after losing a bar cause whats the damn point after that point if you wanna be serious when you play and not just instantly die with only suicidal fucks like me who enjoy a good fight regardless of the outcome would still charge down the boss lair with a shotgun and a dream...
ok ill go in order of why your change ideas are bad or at least ok: 1) no, burn traits are rare enough and this is no different than saying to just remove it from the game all together especailly when its nowhere near good enough to justify using it if its a burn trait as while its a necessity for any solo player as a normal trait, thats only because it offers A CHANCE.... ultimately, its still a BAD AS HELL trait that fucking sucks so much that you often are better off just leaving the match when ya die to an enemy team unless you KNOW there are going to be other teams who show up soon or are fighting the team who killed you OR you died in the water and maybe can revive and save your hunter and your shit. 2) i could actually be ok with that one since it would reward for killing someone but i would only be ok with this possible change if it was ON KILL and not ON LOOTING A DEAD HUNTER as well as YOU CAN SAVE UP these revives so 4 kills and you could theoretically revive with each bar ignoring if you got a burn trait or if they add a trait like the looting a dead hunter side of peacekeeper where you could get bars back for looting dead hunters which i think should be in the game. 3) no, that would make it worthless to the point that no one would run it anymore if a single loot ended you permanently and rewards players who are bad at making good loadouts with burn tools or concertina mines always avalible and punishes those cocky enough to think that they dont need to burn em and can just keep killing them even in a team fight. 4) if this replaced the current timer than maybe so that way its a channeled thing you can istantly start doing but if you decide to stop or decide to wait, when you do do it finally, it adds extra time on top of the time you waited to your revive meaning timing it right to be able to get up will be even harder but still managable especially if it was the normal revive timer of like 6 seconds i think it is instead of 8 which helps offset how big a nerf this is. 5) no and AT MOST only if they are 5m away but even than, no. if they are sitting on your body and let you revive than thats on them for being stupid as hell... again, dont reward bad players for not knowing how to stop revives as its an integral mechanic that is a big part of the fun and skill of learning how to keep people dead regardless of if they are solo or not. 6) HELL NO... there ALREADY is a plenty good mechanic that if you fail to be good enough to make use off, its on you being that when they leave, you see smoke raise from their body meaning you can know for sure that was a solo player and they just left the game. 7) only on the team side where i think perhaps it costs you a health chunk to burn out instead of just damaging it meaning to necro revive a friend isnt so free nerfing how strong teams are. 8) no. you ALREADY AT BEST get back 125 hp which to most medium ammo and long ammo guns is a 1 shot and to shotguns, bows, and crossbows is a guranteed 1 shot 9 times outta 10. again if you make a bad loadout, thats on you and you should not be rewarded like this against such a bad trait meant for solo player who already are at a MASSIVE disadvantage with i would say to just bring back the part of peacekeeper that gave health chunks back on looting dead players so teams can be techincally immortal especially when compared to solos who they already have a massive advantage against on the revive front. 9) no, its bad enough this happens when get hit with a fire bomb cause it almost certainly gurantees another bar lost instantly and so giving this to burn tools like flare and flare guns is too damn op and not needed. again if your in a team or make a good solo build which in my opinion should always have a flare or flare gun and concertina mine, there is no issue and you should be just fine at stopping them from ressing even by yourself. 10) no, just make it so you dont loose mmr unless you leave the match or its your final death where you only loose mmr for that death specifically. now the general solo handicap can be discussed i would say since the SBMM is kinda fucked with how it pits solo 5 stars against like a team with a 3 star, a 1 star, and a 4 star and thinks thats 'FAIR' but thats a SBMM issue and not a solo necro or really just necro in general issue.
Here's my subjective experience with only 250 hours (pres 3). I've had to learn the hard way about necro both in solo and team experiences. 1.- Making necro a burn trait takes away opportunities from a solo player. Maybe if it was limited to 3 instead of 4, solo players wouldn't need to respec with all small health chunks and benefits both parties. 2.- This sounds like an absolute nightmare from a solo perspective. Think of a team 3 stacking your body, burning you and you have to either lose all of your health chunks or get up and face imminent death. At that point, it's too situational and gains an unfair tip in balance in favor of teams, especially considering how prominent trades are. 3.- Kind of the same situation albeit slightly less damaging as 2. Even if its solo vs solo, necro would have to have an instant revive, or looting times would have to be altered for this to be an enjoyable experience for solo. Teams on the other hand, for sure. 4.- I didn't understand the revive timer concept but the sound could certainly be louder. Even though I enjoy the satisfaction of coming out on top from a silent playstyle. Maybe they could add another trait that quiets the noise back to what it is now for the higher-risk hunters. 5.- This is another that I'm sure could be worked out to practical use, but would require a lot of reworks from the devs with burning/trapping bodies etc. I think it's a good idea on paper but I only see this being abused by teams by floating around the area until you're fully burned out. This just doesn't sound fun. 6.- I don't see a big problem with this, as it significantly reduces the chance that you pick up bounty, kill the last player and he's a solo and wipes the team afterward, but I can just smell a 4 star camping the body just to be an ass. Nonetheless, having more information makes the game less ambiguous and I'm here for it. 7.- I truly believe this would work on teams with some other changes to solo that synergize with this, as they simply regenerate health from a variety of ways. Maybe a dropped/inventory health kit, regen/vitality shots, or Ghoul. From a solo's perspective, you were much closer on point with no. 1 due to the sheer disadvantages it holds from burning an extra health chunk. Does this mean 100 instead of 50hp or literal chunks? If it was hp oriented, there needs to be other ways to restore smaller amounts of health similar to lawful pact, creating an opportunity for the team to pursue or leave when hunter necros. 8.- Again, good on paper and I agree with other fundamental changes. My first thought is body trapping that ruin this. Concertina bombs will give the hunter a very small opportunity to escape, but can still be eventually broken out of in the right circumstances. This still results in 3-4 deaths. This is exactly the reason why current necro NEEDS to be paired with extreme patience (in the case of a poison bomb, lasting 8.5 minutes.. sheesh) or resilience. Currently, concertinas kill instantaneously without resilience as well, so using this method WITH res in mind, traps in general need to have an activation delay or something as they will immediately kill and won't be fun. Unless you mean as soon as a hunter gets up they get 50 hp and rapid regen following if they haven't been hit by concertina or poison. 9.- I'm noticing a pattern catering to teams with these changes xD.. I agree that insurance to deter a solo from popping back up with full health is probably long overdue but we have to recognize why solo necro is what it is. This is a 3v1 (or 2v1 or 1v1) so there's full advantage given to the team especially, because solos either have to get up while burning and run around bhopping and crouch maxxing while matrix dodge this'ing from the rifles and shotguns of 3 people most likely carrying dumdum, poison, or dragons breath themselves. That's just a sadists wet dream. If the burn was 25% slower than light burns regularly are, then maybe stacking salveskin would make this not completely unplayable. Otherwise, scrap it. 10.- I had to sit and truly think about this one from the most unbiased point I could while remembering all the times I've gotten worked in 4 star lobbies. But then it started to sink in: this entire game is HEAVILY matchmaking oriented on everyone's behalf. The modifier is just a shoddy tool in place to keep solos relatively advantaged. The truth is, under the current matchmaking system, I don't think its hard for a good player to get into a game with necro, respec for max downs, and rinse and repeat until they're a 2 star my friend. In my case, I've been teeter-tottering on 3 and 4 stars but find that even with the multipliers and matchmaking help, I'm still getting destroyed in 4 star lobbies as a solo in trios AND duos. I might also add that other solo players with your levels also add a layer of dynamics to the threat count in game as a solo. So yes, I might get better but it won't be the same fun, and I can't imagine wanting to play solo should be punished in that way. Overall, they're mostly good suggestions with some room for dev/community communication to really get it tuned to what it needs to be for live play. I think a lot of the points suggest that solo necro needs to be considerably displaced over teams, and while I can see why, I just don't see how it makes necro a better-feeling mechanic all-round. As for the people who think that necro shouldn't be in the game at all, I can't disagree with anything more. It's an essential mechanic that needs some reworking, but offers a greater level of strategy. So anything to keep this game from getting stale or too predictable, I see as an absolute win.
Since trait respec is free, necro/res are in every game and regen shot neglects even the small health drawback. Even if I play solo, I wish they focus to improve random mm - team chat, comend system or whatever to incentivise to play the game as primarly designed and leave solo as hard option but with fix to trades first.
Only play solo but don't spam res, go down once or twice back to the lobby I go. Every character has a pool of 5-6 rez's, max of 3 per match, 4 with trait. Harder to refill. As you run low, may start a match with only 1 or 2 left. They have more value then. solo still gotta fight solos. The balance is really good with hp/high dmg weapons. First rez is so important
I don't want to disregard how people feel but clips like the opener just make me take these complaints less seriously. Sorry to break it to you but it's not "abusing a mechanic" to use a trait for its intended purpose and it isn't the solo's fault that you lost your cool and fumbled. You have so many options to prevent a revive (solo and team) in this game; if you have none of these options, you just need to accept that the fight isn't over and plan accordingly - the same as if it were a team except you have the undeniable advantage given you can shoot twice as many bullets. My take on the burn waiting: 2 min burning a body vs 5-10 min loading to menu, re-equipping, queuing, and loading into the next match. Which would you prefer? The only change I agree with is the MMR adjustment should be much less impactful. But most of the necro changes I see would nerf it to the point of being worthless, and would bring us closer to the old situation of solo sniper in a bush 200m away all game.
Opener clip wasn't me, it was a spectate I thought comical. And you're, I should have said that higher skilled players take advantage of the mechanic, not abuse it. In retrospect I wish i would have dedicated some time to talking about the positives of necro. I think it belongs in the game, and is overall a good thing. Is there a way we can keep in the benefits it offers to solo without grinding gameplay to a halt? I don't have an answer, hence the brainstorm list. I think there can be a version of it that both solo only and team only players can feel good about. The more the conversation continues, the more I think the MMR system is a if not the primary factor in conversation around necro.
@@HuntShowdownLab I agree with you about the MMR but the burn timer being inconvenient sounds like a burning problem, not a Necromancer problem. I think that if you want certainty, you should have to pay for it. But burning has always been an awkward mechanic in this game and this is just another repercussion of it.
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2 clarifications
1) If necro were a burn trait, you could still buy it. I’d think 2 trait points would be a decent cost.
2) I’m not suggesting that multiple of these changes should be implemented simultaneously. My goal was to identify useful options that could help bring the trait to a less controversial state across skill levels.
You didn't achieve your goal, because you did it from an anecdotic point of view, meaning your experience as a single player and maybe your pals or some people opinions you asked, and you don't often play solo (your words not mine), you have also a group play style bias, doing controversial proposals, because you are clearly biased against solo necro. Generating more polarization even.
Your proposals also don't have in mind the whole community, since some of them have cascades effects, that would change the state of necromancer, (but not fix it, since what's exactly to fix?, some people love it, some people hate it, but it's how the game is) and will create cascade effects on the whole gameplay and play styles as a whole.
Right now, it is viable to play fine as a solo, as a team or as a duo, so the state of the game is not as bad as some people want to make it sound. with some of the changes you implement, you are considerably interfering with the viability of solo players to be able to be a part of the community.
I might be biased towards solo playing, but because I truly know that, as a solo player you have everyone and everything against you, group players have way less pressure on them. And even tho i have played around 600 hours as a trio player, i have played other 600 hours as i solo, and i know how fucking hard and frustrating of an experience can be sometimes. Even with the actual state of the game. I also used to play in year 2 when solo death was a permadeath, and it was horrible, borderline unplayable, sure there were streamers and no lifers pulling amazings plays on those days, but the game has to have a healthy community with options for everione to play not just for the best players out there. Even if that means you have to trap or sit and burn a guy from time to time.
Majority team player here, fluctuating 3-4 star with 1.3 K:D (just to prove I'm not some Hunt elitist, or a smurf king, I'm pretty average). Also want to say "anecdotal" viewpoints are valid if they can indeed stand on their own weight... if they can.
First off, it's nobody else's fault if a new player isn't aware of a game's mechanics. Even if this process wasn't a natural part of learning every game ever made, Necro (and all of the traits) are clearly described in a easy to access menu. Neglecting to take a minimal amount of time to familiarize oneself with the game mechanics is well... simply one's own fault. Even if it weren't THAT easy, there's so many guides and gameplay videos out there by now it would be ridiculous to assume someone just jumps in, alone, without any prior knowledge, and could blame necromancer trait for a poor experience. The legitimately objective answer is pretty close to "git gud", but even easier. New players should "get educated" or simply learn by playing. This argument is akin to asking for a basic penetration nerf or eliminating sneaky angles on the map. Sorry for beating a dead horse.
If you don't want to watch a body, set it aflame then trap it with wire/poison. It's not "objectively worse" to leave the body, you are making a value trade on ensuring that solo can't come back OR pursing the main goal of the game (bounty/extraction). Just like "solo has come back to hurt me" has happened, so has "solo was not encountered again" and "solo was defeated again" has happened. It can't be simpler, if you value the main goal, then plan your loadout to deal with ramifications of the environment. If you MUST be sure that solo stays down every single encounter, then don't complain that you spent time on it because that was your elective choice.
"Banking on luck" is both a point of view, and inconsistent reasoning. Another point of view is "Banking on my skill and their mistakes". A consistent logic would be "if relying on my teammates and third party tactics to win a fight is legitimate, then a solo relying on necro and third party tactics is legitmate". It simply doesn't follow that solo necro is "luck" based and that everything else is "skill" based.
Additionally before getting to your proposals, it should be mentioned that solo play is already at a significant cost. Necro is mandatory unless you are just that frigging good, Resilience is pretty close to mandatory for anyone not wanting to die from anything in the game upon revive, and Salveskin goes a long way with how plentifully available burn options are to players. Having 2-3 mandatory traits, minimum 7 trait points, to even consider playing as a solo. This means giving up a lot of other useful abilities like quarter master, silent killer, serpent, etc. on a fresh hunter or paying big for the occasional T3 hunter. That's pretty balanced already man.
1 As a burn trait it would be so rare only the highest skill tier of players would dare play solo at all, and that would also mean the supposed "surprise necro" problem would be exacerbated. Burn traits can't be purchased... if you make necro an exception and lower it's cost, then you might as well make it an automatic freebie when you queue as solo. Because NOBODY (solo or team) wouldn't buy that trait every single round.
2 Require a kill: This would completely eliminate the tactic of using a trade to take on a team. As of now, there's significant risk for attempting a trade kill as a solo. If anyone on that team is up, your gonna get burned and the traded kill will be revived. Useless. If you managed to take down everyone but the last man, and then traded, it's pretty clear you earned the revival anyway.
3 Welp, I guess solo's should just only snipe from 150 meters away then. Screw risking any fight within a 10 second running distance of another player. This also would invalidate Vulture.
4 There already is a reviving timer and sound. Solos have to wait before initiating a revive and for the standup animation to complete before they can do anything, and they take in a breath during that standup time. This is a redundant nerf that simply discourages solo play. In general however, I do agree killing with enough fire damage to ignite should either set the corpse on fire or immediately terminate having burned at least 25hp. This would give more value to both Salveskin and incendiary ammo.
5 Same as #3. Pointless to use unless you only want solos to snipe from the hills, and never go for the bounty by the way.
6 What's the point of a "dead possum" trait if it can be dispelled at the press of a button?
7 Essentially forces everyone to use large health chunks as there's no benefit to small health chunks.
8 We already have this with Vigor + Regen Shot. Doubling up on Vigor and Resilience in this state would be absurd for all firefights and result in more stalemates. If you want to 1shot a solo that's died at least once, use any weapon with 125 damage. There's quite a few of them.
9 This is just another version of #4 and only for players concerned about burning too many chunks. Look, if you can't put a 125hp or less solo down in the time it takes for him to stand up, this isn't going to help you. Just shoot or stab him, it's not hard. Reviving and recovering from a sitting duck situation, identifying the enemy position, and accurately firing back to save your life... that's hard. Legitimately since the beginning of my play time I've only died to a solo this way once, and that was because I was stupid enough to be looting him with an empty weapon equipped and he had a katana.
10 This is the closest change to a legitimate improvement, but I'm still going to argue against it. EVERYTHING is stacked against you as a solo, and 5-6 star lobbies simply will never make the mistakes you are trying to compensate for with the previous 9 proposals. 4 stars rarely make these mistakes. Every change on this list does nothing but ruin solo play entirely or just make encounters with solo's an exclusively annoying experience for everyone else. The only people that would play solo under these changes are top of the line players that can and regularly do wipe entire lobbies anyway. This helps no one.
@@murdurmuffin7872 Damn who let murdurmuffin cook? This was the most comprehensive rebuttal I've seen in my life xD Mine wasn't so concise. Touché!
Welp, despite all the people arguing against your points, it looks like the people that matter agree with you for the time being. I'm gonna guess that there will be some more changes still down the road, but at the very least you can rest easy in that you aren't completely crazy. Either that or the devs solely relied upon your opinion for the necro idea.
@@Taggerun What... exactly are you talking about? Nothing was changed, and as far as I know, no one "that matters" at Crytek has said there will be a change. Genuinely curious where you are getting that from.
As a solo main player the priority fix I would like to see with necro is MMR rebalance. Killing a solo after revive should not effect MMR for the solo or the killer 5 seconds or so after a revive attempt. This would keep more experienced solos in the mmr bracket that they’re suited for. I don’t abuse solo revive or quick play but playing against trios can drop me a star from as little as a couple of bad matches in a row and it doesn’t feel good to play against players who clearly haven’t gained decent game knowledge when I myself have over 1k hours in the game.
same. honestly its mostly underpowered past 3 star with it becomes exponentially worse the higher in rank AND your luck in if you get dropped after showing up 5 minutes late from the boss compounds flank only to find some jackass was in a bush looking at the comound with a shotgun to afraid to go in but in the perfect spot to drop ya through no mistake of your own. like srly if you dont die IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OPEN in between to 2 teams fighting, the chances of you resing and getting to live will be near 0 unless the guys who killed you had no burn tools left or idiotoically didnt bring any burn tools to begin with.
Honestly, if there was a single thing that probably cause the most frustration about necro is the MMR problems. If that was resolved, I think players across the board would be happier about where it's at.
So stop playing solo. Stop being a toxic player who smurfs on new players. Stop telling those players "skill issue" when they complain about dying to you. Play teams. Play pubs like everyone else. The entire playstyle of solos is to be a toxic rat and be problematic to the game of Hunt. They need to be banned from the game completely.
@@salteris how about both fuck you and also let's just have the devs fix the fucking problem they fucking caused by dealing and erasing the MMR issue that it causes and honestly in my opinion at this point, I would say getting rid of the solo handicap is more than fine Cincinnati has changed to make it far less punishing to solos even if we are at a massive disadvantage still. Get off your fucking high horse and stop trying to pretend that solo plays Evil because solo play was never made for this game and so therefore it shouldn't even exist ignoring the fact that a lot of people enjoy it because it's a lot more freeing and fun to play without having to deal with a rando and it's a lot more fun to be able to use things like Necro to take it completely in your own hands of how it is your resources get used and how it is actions like Reviving happen with also Magpie now being another thing that makes solo play more fun as you also get to have the full amount of dark site in your hands rather than letting half of it go to someone who probably is going to misuse it
@@salteris all in all shut the fuck up or acknowledge the actual problems and stop trying to find Boogeyman to cry about
One small potential improvement I've never seen anyone float around is making the labored breathing of a downed (but not fully dead) hunter audible to other players. That'd be a way to tell if a downed player can revive again that is diegetic in the game world, would tie into the game's sound-based mechanics, and would require skill to nail down in the chaos of a firefight.
I like this.
Increase the cost by 1 and whispersmith could even reduce the wheezing sound.
As long as downed team players also make that sound, and you have to be VERY close to hear it (melee range), this is not a bad change. Ramifications:
- If you know you are fighting a team, you can know if the dead player has teammates still alive (duos in trio lobbies do happen, and sometimes a trio member dies elsewhere and is left behind).
- Checking a downed player requires you to get close enough to potentially die to a decent melee weapon.
- Less waste of burning materials on already burned out corpses.
- Intentional "corpse camping" in boss lairs is heavily reduced because only ignorant players won't check player corpses. (Corpse Camping: Solo dies to the boss, waits for a team to come in and kill it, then surprise attacks)
If you can tell they are still alive what honestly is the point.
I would like to add another topic that is not mentioned.
Necro has bought a ton of players.
Before Necro it was REALLY rare to see solo player. And those players were almost only sniper.
Necro made playing solo FUN and a good choice when you do not have friends on-line or do not want to find random.
No necro, or a almost useless necro means that all those solos would eventually vanish except for the snipers, who were already there from the beginning.
fun fact.
self revive does benefit solo snipers a biiit more than close range solos since at long range you will survive ANYTHING with resilience except a headshot.
BUT being smart and planning to attack in a clusterfuck fight makes necro possible in close range fights which is damn hilarious to do XD
I used to play solo a lot before self-res was added, and I would default back to sniping for sure if Necromancer was nerfed too much. I can promise you that I am more annoying as a Mosin spitzer sniper than a close range shotgun player that has the option to revive a few times.
@@bluebird2540 I used to solo before it was added aswell. solo sniping mainly.
with self revive now i can be even more annoying as a solo sniper.
A very important point. I feel as if a lot of the discussion is headed by players who do not play solo regularly if at all. The ongoing discussion is so rife with arguments that just scream this player has little if any experience as a solo.
Playing solo is super fun, but it is also super intimidating and overwhelming at first. My first 1000 hrs into the game I only ever played solo as a rat sniper who never won anything, and I only played a handful of matches total. Now at 3k+ hrs I play something like 95% solo, and I prefer that play style. I am fairly confident I will just go back to playing isometric rpg's or something for that 95% if solo necro gets nerfed too much.
@@juliusjokela5025 yep, I also think solo necros are kind of the perfect agents to break stalemates at compounds, they can risk downs in contested areas without really feeling guilty. I wonder if people would be as upset if there was a trait that made you self revive at another location, putting that hunter in limbo, but bringing in a new one already in your roster. Sole survivor type of rules could be enforced, kill within 5 minutes or extract with bounty to save the hunter.
I feel like this whole discussion is mainly from the pov of teams and a "I do not want to be bothered with solos" mentality.
Let me adress some of the points.
Necro needs 8 seconds to be available and the stand up animation is roughly 3 seconds. A marathon has plenty of time to duo tab you before you even get control of your hunter.
If you kill a solo you have 8 seconds to position, reload, revive, heal or in general prepare for a hunter to stand up. With max 125 hp left, you can easily take him out, you can even stab him. He has no stamina, and is left with the last weapon/tool he used before dying.
If he stands up, it's like his teammate mate it to the party, kill him a second time, now he has max 100 hp left, an easy upper body tab.
-Easy to couter: fire, constantina, poison, there are endless solutions. Flare, dragon breath ammo, pistol with shotgun attachement, it is way to easy to burn people nowadays
-Flow of game: Killing a hunter with peace of mind always requires to burn him. His team mate could sit at the other side of the compound and waiting. It's not a solo problem.
-hate waiting: imagine you are the solo, running around for 5-15 min, get killed by some random dude, pick new hunter, wait for game and voila, easily 10 minuits till you are back in action. You on the other hand, need like 5 min to get him out of the game for sure.
I do not think that not liking a mechanic or don't bother to prepare against is a valid reason for calling for a "fix".
Necro is only a problem in sub 3 star lobbies, where people don't know that it is possible and get suprised.
But the same is true for burning, for explosion and bullets going through wall etc. It's something you need to learn and adapt to.
I could whine about setting hunters on fire and how I need to bring choke bombs and people camping the body of my team mate after setting him on fire.
Honestly, Necro is useless most of the time and could need some buff, rather than a nerf.
And don't forget, necro with relentless is 7 skill points already.
Yeah, great comment!
Almost every time I get downed as a solo at 90 meters I selfrevive ASAP to find out three guns pointing at me at the shotgun distance.
Solo necromancer actually needs a buff for close to mid fights, because nowadays it passively discourages going close and personal
Great comment but also great video about this mechanic.
I quote Arrowhead. A game for everyone is a game for no one.
Necro is a very delicate trait to balance, but i think we are in a very good spot now.
A good tutorial for the necro with pro and vs would be more than enough, i think.
I agree however with the video regarding the MMR de-ranking.
well said. Necro usually doesn't work in fights directly against a team. one mistake and your down and dead for good.
I realized that people who want to change or get rid of it are those who cant deal with solos and the "i dont wanna be bothered with solos"
its fairly rare to run into solos usually.
fire bomb is the most effective way to deal with one cause even if the solo revives in flames he might lose an ADDITIONAL bar if you wait a bit before shooting him.
the other way is death traps.
concertina alone wont usually do it due to resilience but it will slow them down and they wont be able to get up midfight.
If I die in close range. most of the time I just get burned, trapped and/or camped immediately.
One note: it's resilience that costs 3 trait points. Relentless is a burn trait that should be removed from the game imho because it really breaks a lot of revive counters.
@@ExF1Guy I do like relentless. as an event trait especially.
as a burn trait now? you barely find it anyway which is good.
8:24 The mmr advantage is not brought up frequently and i'm glad you included this point. I want to add that not only is the solo more experienced, but in the event that he dies from the lower skilled players (possibly multiple times if they camp his body), his MMR takes a huge dive towards low stars because of how the star system works. A 5 star can get into a match solo, get farmed by a team and be 3 stars by the time he gets back to the lobby, so now you have a 5 star fighting completely new players or legitimate 3 star players.
Intentional or not, deranking as a solo is inevitable as you lose more than you gain.
3:44 "newer players don't know it" does not strike me as a valid point. Especially when in a team with an experienced player. You could've just told them that solo-necro is a thing and avoided all that frustration. You could have burned or trapped the solo yourself instead of letting your poor bambie mates die to them until they give up on the game :P that's on you!
Ifs such a stupid point, no game has to accommodate for newer players. When I started playing I didn’t know what trip mines were, does that mean they should be removed altogether? No!! I have to learn, they don’t have to change.
Then again we’re watching a video about someone complaining about solo necro over a year after it’s been a thing. I can’t take anyone’s opinion seriously if they’ve got a whole UA-cam channel but can’t take care of solos. Solos are so easy to take care of. This guy probably still thinks the beetle ruined the game.
A team cannot lose off a single mistake, a solo can. What an odd point to make against solos.
Yeah. It seems like most of the grievance is with people thinking that people they down should stay down, when the game's health bar system, revives, and race to bounty/extract are definitely meant to give people more than one chance. Waiting for burns is a time sink, but you have to do the same if a team doesn't all push into your funnel.
A solo spamming revive is just as annoying as a trio spamming necro revives.
I think we just need to remove the mmr nerf while solo.
wont happen, then streamers are forced to stream the garbage called 5* mmr
@@F3nrylim currently stuck at 5* and have like 80 hours in game. It does not feel good.
For combating solo hunters use fire, concertina bombs, posion/concertina wire and camp the body.
I stopped running necro when playing solo because damn near every time I get trapped and camped
i have necro on solo hunters if there is that one chance to get myself up but most of the time i get burnt, trapped and camped anyway.
mostly only use it to save my hunter and extract a match since you get burned every time you hit the floor
No, to combat solos, just remove them from the game entirely. No more solos, no more abusive, toxic, scummy players.
Yea the counters are there, people just bad I guess lol
@@Scorched-Knight "git gud" isn't a solution to toxic scummy players. Not everyone wants to sweatlord hunt in 5-6 star lobbies. But scum solos want to sweatlord against new players in 3 star lobbies. The toxicity is digusting.
@@salteris By that logic you should be removed from the game entirely. Excluding people who enjoy a game differently than you, or worse don't have friends to play with, is an abusive, toxic, and scummy way to behave. Just curious, are you a 2 or a 3 star? Because if you haven't learned how to efficiently keep someone down then you definitely haven't made it to 4 star unless you were carried by your friends. I mean seriously, how hard is it to shoot a stationary target that can't shoot back within 2 seconds? You can't afford bleed ammo? A Vetterli carbine? Nagant Officer? Pretty much any long ammo weapon? Any shotgun? A melee weapon? You don't take traps because you are afraid you will step on them? Like really man, why are solo's a problem for YOU so painfully it justifies excluding hundreds of people from playing the game?
Eh, don't bother. I'd just laugh, you'd continue being mad, and Crytek would never do what you want... nothing would change.
I think it would be cool if a Hunter that could still be revived (whether by themself or a teammate) made a very faint breathing sound. That way you can tell when someone is completely out (not breathing), but because the sound is quiet it would be inaudible in fights, still giving the necro player the advantage of surprise if used correctly.
This would also obviously lower the amount of time babysitting dead bodies
Give death a special sound, like it had when they first introduced solo necro, and maybe make solo necro cost two bars of health
I like the idea of of a special death sound when you can vs can't revive. Good idea!
I don't think it needs any changes. I understand it can be overwhelming for new players, but we were all new players once, right? We just get used to how the game works.
Also, do you remember when solo necro was introduced there was a sound when the dead person left the game, like their soul just vanished? Yeah, we could have that back.
I agree there should be a special sound. Not sure why they took it out.
You say you don't play solo often, I mostly play as a solo. If you die, and are not really far from your killer, you are basically permanently dead... solo necro is not that strong, is easely counterable, and it will only give you a chance in 20% of your deaths, and that's a chance, no garanties...
I agree with what others said about revives not counting for the MMR of the solo nor the killer, at least until 5 seconds or so, because that's what creates a bad experience for new players. Let me explain. I am 5 to 6 stars, when I'm playing in groups or random trios I tend to be 6, when I play alone which is the most part, I'm 4 to 5 stars. When i die, as i said, necro will only give me a chance two out of every ten matches i die, but i still have to try to look for those 2 times, so i tend to die a lot looking for that opportunity, that means i sometimes get down to even 3 stars... Needless to say, I usually piss on those servers, run the gauntlet, and I progressively get back to my real MMR...
PLaying solo is awesome sometimes, but is mostly a burden, and those rarer victories and adrenaline rushes are what compensate for all that negative part. So solos have it every time against their odds, making it less desirable to play for all those lone wolves... and you have to account all the trading windows bullshit an a meta that is unforgiving for solo players. And we need to keep a healthy player base so that the game remains alive, and solos are a great part of any game. So Hunt showdon should propmote an apealing gameplay, not one that makes lots of people loose interest.
Yeah, his analysis was from outer space.
Good post feel the same as a solo player. I have 900 hours in the game, lowly 3 to 4 star, in all that time I have only killed 150ish bosses. Getting those kills as a solo is tough and mean a lot.
The issue with burn traits is they are practically nonexistent. They are so incredibly rare the game would return to the prior frustrations people had with training against the last player of a team, because you can *never find* necro. I don’t think that’s the solution.
Taking more health chunks is also not an idea I like. You ALREADY have to play so much more careful after being hit ONCE, being two chunks down after a single death would be awful. If necro used healthchunks also, there would be zero reason to use it on your teammates. Why should I put myself at a SEVERE disadvantage for the rest of the game rather than just risking a hand revive?
The change you suggest for resilience might make downing a solo easier - but it will also make resilience near useless in your average mid-distance long ammo team fight. This situation occurs more often than the odd solo who necros in your face and then doesn't die immediately. The change would cause more issues than it solves
Yeah, I overlooked the importance of using it to defend against snipers.
I definitely think that you cant give solos something powerful so they can face trios, and simultaneously make them face lower skill trios. Thats kind of double dipping in making the life of a solo easier, and as a solo player, id personally much rather fight trios i feel had the game sense to fight me back.
often i feel bad for the teams i wipe if they didnt seem aware enough.
New feature, let solo necros use microphone while downed to give the 3 star lobbies ample warning they're going to get up ;3. Unironically this could be a fun mindgame until you're muted .
Am I the only one that remembers that game mechanic of seeing a wisp-like effect going off a killed hunter the moment player disconnects from the game? It was on the same event that they added rain, if I remember it correctly, then after event they just removed it. If that mechanic returned I'd probably have no more problems with solos necroing themselves. Just let me know if player is still in that downed body or did he disconnect from the game, it would not only let me know if he's a solo among messy multiple team fights, but also would let me play the game and enjoy fights instead of camping a body of a player who probably already left back to menu.
That's actually a really solid idea.
If a burning player disconnects from the loby their body will no longer burn and will immediately go to the burned out state. This only applies if they are actively burning when they disconnect.
i truly hate this damn trait so much, everyone wants to talk about the baby sitting but nobody wants to talk about when 5 teams are fighting and pushing into a compound and you dont have time to sit and give jimmy tuckies just incase he may have necro mid fight so you get shot by the guy you just killed while still in a team fight without any time to reset.
Traps go brrrrrrr
@@GamingZ_enith so considering i just said you had no time to even reset aka reload, heal, res your own team. lets be real you dont have time to do none of that and walk over in the middle of the fight and trap the body while you are being pushed by a duo shotgun. i mean you can if you want but let me know how that works out for you when your screen goes dark. necro isnt a problem when you have time necro is a big problem when you literally cant have the time because by the time you kill the people now pushing you after you just fought the others "if" you do..... little jimmy is already giving you a back rub.
@@akalixevelynn2932 right, because 8 seconds is nowhere near enough time to walk ten feet and spend a second putting a trap on a guy.
I've played 500 hours, that's how I've always played it, it's worked in the vast majority of scenarios, learn to multitask.
@@GamingZ_enithMe when I spend the 8 seconds killing two people rushing in with a fucking Katana and a bayonet. Instead of trapping Jimmy's body. It's either die while trapping, or die to Jimmy when he wakes up from his nap while your resetting.
Of cause this isn't bound to happen every game. But I still think it's a big enough flaw that just feels cheap to die from.
@@samstafford2579 Dont play console hunt then :/
My view on solo necro was that it was suppose to reward the solo player if they traded with the last person on the team they killed. I like the fire change suggestion. For me I think removing the matchmaking bonus(as well as fix the deranking) and maybe make it so if you are solo necro you burn twice as fast.
If fire would get yet again buffed setting people on fire would have to become significantly more difficult than it is in the current instaburn meta. I agree that death should have serious consequence in the game, but even more so I think the game needs to be fun. Dying as a solo is already practically a permadeath: 4 outta 5 times you can't survive getting downed unless there's some serious chaos going on. Most times I'm burning before I ever hit the ground.
As is, from the top of my head I can come up with at least 27 variably reliable or situational ways to deal with a downed solo including all the ones that set them on fire. There are plenty of resources available to combo a set-and-forget type situation for solo necro, and even more if we count soft counters like choke clouds and alert trip mines to let you know they got up. If people don't know how to utilize them, perhaps that's on crytek. But if people refuse to use them and then cry solo necro is OP, that is on them and crytek shouldn't pander to that.
What you suggest about nerfing necro + resilience counteracts their exact purpose, which is to give you a somewhat comparable rez chance to that of playing in a team. Nerfing it for teams too doesn't balance it out. Team members can still revive each other time and again, ad nauseam if they have a bounty.
Now, I do not think solo necro is balanced! I think it could be implemented better for sure, but the reason is not that it is in any conceivable way OP. The reason is that it is a boring and exploitable mechanic the way it is implemented now. I am really not a fan of balancing by heavy handed nerfs / buffs, and especially when it concerns majority rule (team players) at the detriment to a minority (such as solo players). These tend to create further and exceedingly dissatisfying unpredictable problems since so many game mechanics interact with one another and are built upon each other.
I really liked one solution you offered, which is that solos should not be in comparably lower MMR lobbies to begin with. I believe this is far more cause for the issue than the actual mechanical balance of traits and their counters. Furthermore, solo revive should not count toward MMR loss beyond your first death. That would bring it in line with soul survivor in terms of deranking efficiency. Even worse actually, since in SS you can at least get killed by a 1star whereas in your regular team MMR lobbies (at least on EU lobbies) you're not very likely to encounter anyone more than one MMR rank apart from you... These should also preserve some of that ye olde Hunt intensity for the geezers out there since they'd be fighting more uphill battles most of the time. I'd prefer this for myself absolutely.
I for one genuinely do not belong in 3 stars, no cap. I try to say this with as much earnest self-reflection and non-bias as I can. I average at the border between 4-5 stars when I play seriously (be it solo or teams, randoms or friends) and therefore whenever I drop to lobbies with players at 3* and below, the game becomes very unjust and un-fun for everyone involved. And the way the MMR swings right now I tend to drop there a lot since I'm one of those thousands-of-hours geezers who have gotten bored with the meta and just go in with like full choke bolt hand xbow and a dinger to just have stupid pew pew fun and to squeeze some novelty challenge out of the game between the new gun additions each event... And I self revive only if I genuinely think I have a chance at getting up. I can imagine the speed people drop if they purposely derank...
I personally think MMR should be way less swingy for everyone, teams included. Preferably, it should average your MMR against a longer period instead of being a simple addition / reduction based on match KD to enemy MMR ratio. Perhaps each match should only count toward your MMR as if played against your own average MMR. Perhaps each death should only count within a certain timeframe from your previous death. Perhaps redskull shouldn't count toward MMR at all. Or perhaps each match should only count success/failure toward your MMR as a modifier based on your specific match KDA. Idk, I'm not a game dev. Perhaps each of these alone would already throw balance out of whack for reasons I can't even fathom.
All I know is I've played this game long and passionately enough to have witnessed just how inflammatory and bandwagony the public discussion can get, and how out of proportion Crytek tends to go with their balancing when they try to respond to it. The popular hateposting target seems to be solo revive right now and that makes me worried cause when this has happened before the game has changed a lot in ways that have completely destroyed the entire mechanic instead of tweaking it. So I've become very wary of what everyone thinks Crytek should or shouldn't do....
Interesting discussion though, thanks for chiming into it. I genuinely hope they find some sweepingly satisfactory way to mix things around for us. Maybe such an answer ripples from this! GG. :3
Yeah, I definitely think it wound be bad if all of this got implemented, I was more brainstorming options that trying to say “this is what needs to be done.” Energy change has unintended consequences (like you mentioned the fire buff being too much).
I’m getting the sense that I’m the odd one for enjoying the tension that comes from playing when most of my bars are burnt out. I’d encourage people to not extract just because you’ve lost some bars. Those who do are missing out IMO.
I agree on your MMR comments. It’s likely if that was brought to a better place the necro conversation would settle some on its own.
I’m a hobbyist game designer, so I enjoy game design theory crafting. It’s not my intent to throw shade at Crytek about this, and I hope it didn’t come across that way too much.
@@HuntShowdownLab Oh I didn’t take it as shade at all! :)
I think this is definitely a worthwhile discussion to have, and there's a good reason why people want to have that conversation with Crytek. Also I think it's good you help make it more public, at least as long as the contribution isn't too biased.
I hope Crytek takes a balanced approach to the problem, but I fear the approach might be some sort of stomp on solo gameplay unless solos push back on how the public discourse seems to be shaping. I'm sure to have some confirmation bias as a solo main, but what I mostly see is just largely baseless bitching about how solo is obviously OP and needs to be deleted / nerfed to the ground... Which would be flash bomb all over again. No one will use it if you make it useless by destroying the whole mechanic with nerfs. Then you have a whole other demographic pissed at you for ruining their preferred play style.
I think the only change required is giving a smaller MMR advantage to solos and giving self revive a "grace period" of like 5 seconds after getting up, during which your MMR can't be affected. It would solve the unintentional deranking problem. Otherwise, I think solo necro is fine as is. It already takes your opponents to be careless for you to really take advantage of it in a fight. A regular fire bomb on its own is even very powerful in its current state, because since it burns for a very long time, you have to get up and move yourself to survive or completely die while trying. There is also poison and concertina traps, hand crossbow poison and fire bolts, poison and concertina bombs, dragon's breath, flare guns and fusees, even choke bombs as deterrence if you need time sensitive recovery. So many options to take care of solo necro. If you dont use any of them, I think that's skill issue, sadly. As a mostly solo player myself, I've never encountered another solo and thought "that's unfair". I believe the reason why solo necro is brought up as a problem so much is because it feels bad and unfair to fail taking care of a solo as opposed to being actually unfair or bad for the game to the point it warrants a big change. Solo necro is already a complex mind game at 3+ stars and really hard to pull off at 5+ stars. A direct nerf wouldn't help the lower skill lobbies, it would only bring higher skill players down to lower skill players' lobbies, causing further MMR imbalance.
I think the biggest problem is the whole MMR thing with necro. Make the gap a bit smaller and also remove the option to dump your MMR by getting yourself killed over and over again and things would look quite different.
Overall i just think necro needs to be in the game and it needs to be good, atleast for solos. Not overpowered of corse, but without people will stop to play solo or just go for sniper loadouts mostly.
It absolutely needs to be in the game, and I agree that mmr may be the biggest issue that convolutes the conversation.
It's a bit of a weird idea I've yet to see brought up, but a solo's body could move on revive. We've seen teleportation with Shadow Leap so it could function similarly. The diagetic logic also fits, you're using a grunt's life force instead of a teammate sacrificing theirs to get you back up.
The Solo revives at the location of a grunt at least X meters away, probably somewhere outside of a neighboring compound. It makes the Shadow Leap sound to let you know why the body disappeared. The timer is probably extended 5 seconds so people can loot the body. In the case that a solo's body is still holding a bounty, they revive in place.
Team benefits - The solo isn't standing up right next to you while you're reviving a teammate, or taking another fight. You don't have to spend multiple tool/consumable slots to keep them down. You don't have to wait for the burn to finish, you can just kill, loot, and move on like any other fight. If you hear or see the body shadow leap, you get confirmation it was a solo. Solos can't do the thing where they suicide in a boss lair to surprise you.
Solo benefits - You don't have to worry about being camped/trapped. You don't have to sit there waiting for them to leave your body so you can get up. You get a fresh shot at the fight, resupply, pick a new approach, or just extract if you really want.
Cons - Solos are going to have to reorient and do some extra walking, they couldn't just jump right back into a fight. It's basically a safe death cheat because there would be no reason not to revive. Solos would have to wipe a team without dying or end in a trade (then walk back) to really win a fight. Teams wouldn't be able to confirm a burnout. You're never gonna find a solo's body if you kill them at a distance.
I play about equal time on both solo and teams and I never leave the house without necro. The waiting game sucks from both ends and camping isn't fun for anyone. My main concern isn't balance and advantages, it's that it slows the game down.
Finally, some good bait! To be brief, the only change I'd make would be the matchmaking weight. Incen could be brought up to its dragon breath counterpart by having shots to a downed body ignite with the same rules as standing hunters (two tap beyond x distance). Resilience countering snipers, wire, and poison puts it in a good place, but I've thought about it being regen before, too.
Necro is mostly an optics problem. Any situation where a hunter is downed is made worse by that hunter having a teammate rather than being a solo. It's only because most people feel obligated or find it a fun challenge to save a teammate that teams put themselves into seemingly worse positions than solo necros find themselves in.
Sniper problem? Your teammate can countersnipe or obscure the body.
Revenge cause you didn't burn out? Against a trio, even after taking the time to burn out one body, still has two other members who WILL most likely hunt you down for the bounty revive.
Solo necros escaping kill coffins too easily? Teammates can remove all punishment and revive with less health resources lost.
People lose their minds when encountering a solo necro, but have no problems brushing aside the added threat and options teams have just because one person wiping out two or three people feels embarassing.
I feel like for new player experience, most of it would be solved by enabling post death comms for teams. So, so many times I've died on the inside not being able to explain the obvious.
A thing that I personally don't like about necro, that doesn't even have anything to do with solos, is that people will just constantly try to revive you at a distance they're not in too much of danger when they do it, but sacrifice you and your health for usually no payoff whatsoever
We need a “refuse revive” type of prompt and action. I’ve been revived repeatedly into poison by inept teammates that are hiding indoors while my body is laying outside, out of their view.
thats why you dont have to play with Randoms and play with teammates or solo
Resilience being fast regen makes sense, but only in combination with necro. If one get revived normal it should still give insta full health
The fire Ideas should be implemented instantly. Just recently I was baffled by a Hunter standing up while on fire and then not being on fire anymore!
I think a forced timer on necro would be cool. Like a time limit in which you can revive once you get downed. Ran into a lot of people who just stayed dead for like 10 minutes when I didn't have burn and ran into them later in the match because I was looking for a lantern or just walking away.
I think it should become more similar to team-necro. Maybe even no artificial time window.
You just hold a button until necro bar is filled out (with the same time as team-necro), but if you stop at any moment it cancels. It also should have some price for that necro attempt (like slowly losing 25 hp for team-necro) or you can just do it over and over again until the right situation comes up. I don't have a good idea for the price though.
*Long rambly thoughts from a Senior Game Designer who's thought about this quite a lot*
I really like your breakdown of the issues with Necromancer. I think folks can get too caught in the weeds of whether it's too powerful or not and miss the larger issues it creates. I completely agree with the issues of Necromancer you pointed out (especially for solo), but I think a lot of the proposed solutions wouldn't help much beyond rounding off some of the more prickly aspects of Necro.
The core issue is that solo Necro is confusing (and therefor unusually punishing) for new players as they run into it less frequently, and when they do, the game-play to counter it is bland (burn and babysit).
I think an avenue to address these issues would be to make solo self revive a built-in mechanic, where solo players can self-revive once per match. Necro would allow you to self revive multiple times, but each time you do so in a match, you must wait an additional 4 seconds before being allowed to revive (So revives would be 8/12/16/20 seconds).
I would then couple this with a change to being downed and burned. Being downed for more than 10 seconds causes your character to start to lose their health bars at a rate similar to what burning is now (this naturally gets rid of Solo Necro getting to wait for long periods of time to revive since they'll lose health if they wait too long). If you burn the character, this 10 second delay is bypassed and they start to lose health chunks extremely quickly (even faster than burning is now). After all, they're burning to death while bleeding out which should feel like a moment to get a move on and save your teammate, rather than a dawdling "wellp, gotta throw a choke over there in the next few minutes". Also, if you go down in water or a poison cloud, the 10 second delay timer is ignored as your character can't breath and you start losing health immediately. Lastly, I'd consider different burning rates for downed characters, where being engulfed in flames (from a Molotov or lantern) burns your health bars at an extremely fast rate (3x current speed) compared to lighting them with a flare / shotgun round.
The idea for the changes would be to make solo Necro a more common-place occurrence, which would assist in teaching new players the mechanics, while also ensuring that players have quicker, more viable options to burn and deal with downed characters in general beyond burn and babysit.
I really like that!
Yeah, I agree that most of my fixes were trying to use bandaid solutions that wouldn’t require a substantial rework to existing systems.
@@HuntShowdownLab - That's a really good shout out. Smaller fixes, while less ideal, are much more likely to make it through the scheduling and trimming process that always happens in game dev.
One thing some friends and I suggested (my friends are primarily team players, I play with them, or solo mainly solo due to full team) is switch the necro timer around. Since it takes aprox 7 seconds to revive someone, make the revive button instant then have the hunter wait 7 seconds, during that 7 seconds you hear the necro darksite sound effect since that is already implemented
Instructions unclear, all listed suggested changes were simultaneously implemented by crytek.
lol, please no!
@@HuntShowdownLab 😆
A no-brainer for me, unrelated to any necro changes for solo or teams, is to increase the trait price of both necro and resilience. I would argue that the trait value of either of them is higher than literally any other trait in the game, regardless of the price.
To prove my point. Right now in high-elo it is almost a given that when you buy a new hunter you remove ANY traits until you get to 7 trait points to buy necro + resilience. It tells me that the inherent value of these two traits appears to be above every other trait, which logically should be reflected it the trait price.
I’d love to see a trait statistics report sliced by rank and pick order.
Hear me out, just wondering.
If Necro is so valuable as to be a first pick, every time, doesn't that also mean that higher point value traits like quartermaster and doctor become more rare and therefore economically speaking (supply/demand) more valuable as well?
Why not make necro a standard feature for every hunter, every game, for free? Gives everyone the same capabilities, nullifying the tradeoffs, any mystery factor, and forces teams to either act decisively towards each other or risk losing gained advantages? Less camping and more blasting, plus people should be burning and trapping bodies anyway regardless if the corpse is a solo or team member.
Edit: As currently implemented of course, not saying that team members should be able to self revive.
The resilience change is the sweet spot. Make it a regen rather than an instant, that way traps, and rekills are where they need to be so you can move on and not have to babysit so much. Babysitting is really my biggest problem with it and traps should be effective. To be able to stand up and walk out of a trap is the problem cause then you’re forced to babysit burn every time.
they should had team vocals and more team matchmaking mechanics (even reward for playing with a random) so that solo become more a challenge with some of your changes and at the same time people would want to maybe find a partner without feeling in a disadvantage comparing to solo.
and other than that resilience change is a tricky question cause spitzer ammo long distance plays are still too strong in the meta so camping a body for them will be so much easier if this change happened. mecanics could be find like specificely making long distance shot with some ammo types not 1 shot down someone in the reviving animation but i feel like its not a good way of balancing the game with weird specific mecanics
Hey sorry I'm late to the party. You've made some good points and I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I recently started playing hunt and have been getting my friend into it. Necro solos standing back up is something that I didn't know could happen until someone did in front of me. I was confused and completely unprepared but it only had to happen once for me to learn from it, now it's easy to look for. I think most new players would probably agree that it only needs to happen once to learn from it, after that it's a fairly intuitive mechanic and doesn't seem too overpowered with the base traits. It seemed much more annoying and broken when there were a variety of easy ways to restore health last event but I think these were just things that made necro broken and not so much the necro being broken. I do think necro needs some form of nerf since it can do a variety of uncounterplayable extract camping tactics, I won't get into the tactics much but I think Dark Sight + Bounty or vulture should reveal "down but not out" players
I think the resilience change is the best one here - especially if it’s really fast regen, like the vigor + mariner regen combo was.
Author is right, perk is probably need to be changed, i think like no mmr downgrade, this is based as must be, and second when dead body on fire it stand up with fire, it will be great
Hi, im a game designer and a career 2-3 star in Hunt showdown. I have a feeling the majority of players who watch these videos are either new players who end up in 3-4 star, or are themselves higher end players; i say all this to mention that the new player experience in hunt is a very hard one to capture.
Ive introduced hunt to everyone close to me, and i want to let some people know that Hunt: Showdown does not attract a mainstream or casual audience. My father is a casual gamer and cannot stand Hunt because its too slow. Whether or not you think thats valid doesnt matter because it plays into balance;
Casuals make up a large majority of players in most games, but less so in Hunt. Even then, casuals are present enough that when they do play, they usually get killed by solo-necro players. And this *is* an issue as a game designer, because slowing the already slow game down by 2-5 minutes for one player when a team could get bounty and leave in just 6-10 is not acceptable for most players.
From my perspective the fix needs to be short and simple, and the best fix imo is geniunely making necromancer its own perk; "You can revive yourself", and make it a burn trait you must buy multiple times or find in mission, OR giving an indication someone can revive themselves.
Burning bodies and making smores is funny for some, but when i play with my brothers they can't stand it. Its just boring, especially if they just wait.
This is a good video but im consistently disappointed by the dismissal by some players in the comments of not just this video but others like it.
This is an issue, like it or not, and most players, the devs, and even solos know it. The idea of a self revive is great, but the execution is far too forgiving at the current moment.
Never had a problem with it. I love fighting people with it. Love using it as a solo. Ads to the dark magic vibe of the game.
The MMR one wouldn't really work IMO because it's super easy to de-rank in Hunt. I can go from mid 5 star to 3 star in a single play session if I'm having a particularly bad night. If I was trying to de-rank on purpose I could probably get down to 3 star in an hour.
I feel like the biggest things that would at least help course-correct necro would be 2 changes. One that was touched on here and one that wasn't.
1 - Resilience shouldn't work with necromancer, period.
2 - Standing up with Necromancer versus a regular res should have a special noise associated with it that can be heard up to 25 meters away. This way it's not a secret when someone gets up, there's no more sneaky necro mid fight for duos/trios and at the same time there'll be a much easier way for newer players to recognize that they heard a weird noise that wasn't just the same deep breath someone takes when they heal, which is a fairly normal noise to hear right after you finish a fight.
My main issue with necromancer is that it slows down the game due to camping, and slows down growth because of course its frustrating for new players and our glorious hunt community shames these players saying "its easy to counter, get good."
Heres how I'd fix it:
-remove necro for solos and heavily slow revive speed for squads
-buff solo ammo/tool/consumable capacity
This would remove frustration of constant squad reviving, add the risk back to solo but making it more fun through consumable options and less ammo struggles. This would also speed up the game, less camping. But most of all, welcoming for new players which we need.
It's not the trait's fault, people need to get used to the mechanics that counter it, that is it, they go into a match without proper preparations and then complain about a situation the know is a factor but refuse to play around.
Let me guess, you also deny this game has a huge cheater epidemic and Crytek is the best bunch of game devs that ever existed?
@@Luna-Starfrost in 600 hours of gameplay I've run into cheaters only once, and it wasn't even hacks, the cheater issue is basically isolated to higher MMRs which is why it seems to be so frequent for 6 star players, but in reality it's in less than 1% matches.
@@AndyTF141 Sweet summer child
This isn't a good argument
I honestly think for the solo part after your 10 seconds are up and you can revive it should start a 2nd timer that after say 20 or 30 seconds you can no longer revive. So that way if you die to a trade or a sniper that's way far out you can still res and it feels good at that point.
but if your fighting a team of 3 and lose they just have to watch you for 20-30 seconds then after they know for sure you can't get up anymore!
I agree with the change to resilience as well should give you a super regen or something but not full health that would really dial in solo necro alone
One of the problems i see with it being a burn trait is that i feel most people would just write it off at that point for team play and i feel like that's a bad thing to do to it, I wanna see changes on the solo side but not the team side
Also the handicap needs to go,
There is no reason a 5 start should be fighting 2 or 3 stars, Z.E.R.O Reasons
I made a really bad video on it myself lol
As a 500 hour 5 star, I honestly think people are making solo necro a mountain of a problem when, in reality, it's barely a problem at all. I don't think it's the solo necro itself that is the problem, it's the surrounding mechanics that make it a pain. Me and my duo, personally only ever had a problem with solo necro the FIRST time we ever came across it in the first week of us playing, when we didn't know how it worked. After that first time, 95% of the time a solo necroing never caused us to die because of the way hunt just works. I think the main problem is the *burning bodies* mechanic, simply carrying a flare gun basically makes necro obsolete, heck even a molotov or even lemat dragons breath if for some reason you need that fourth tool slot.
If however, you don't or refuse to bring a burn item, you accept the risk that you won't be able to guarantee an opponent is finished. Getting mad at that point is just a skill issue. Now many people will probably say "Well I shouldn't have to carry a specific item just to deal with necros" and to that I say, you aren't taking it to deal with necro's, you're taking it to deal with hunts poor player removal system. I personally hold to the belief that burning bodies should only burn down to the last chunk, this would, to an extent, hopefully rethink camping burning bodies and strategy to deal with them. While also not being a frustration to the burned and the burned's teamates.
As for your 10 things you listed to solve the issue, I actually think all but 6 9 and 10 would do nothing but make the problem worse. You have to think of necro from the solo's perspective too, one thing people fail to consider is that solo necro people arent like some annoying AI that you have to deal with, they are also a player (usually) trying to have fun too.
Solution 1 would just further convolute the trait system and make it a chore to use it.
Solution 2-5, and 7 ruin the chance of the solo ever getting to gain value out of it unless they were sniped from long range.
8 literally gets rid of the whole point of resillinance, which serves to give the revived resistance to damage thresholds upon being revived (Krag on one small bar lost and concertina fragments.)
You cant "fix" solo necro for all parties, or even most parties without the remaining parties getting the short straw. You have to fix the surrounding mechanics to make it a strategy, not a chore.
Until then, bring a flare gun or concertina tripwires, problem solved.
Edit: Also another thing you can do without having to bring anything except a brain is UNLOAD THEIR GUNS. It's free, it's easy, and it's super effective.
I think one fix for necro would be to lengthen the revival animation and have it make more sound so that it gives the people watching the body more time to react and dispatch the enemy hunter. I also think making the sound effect for necro more obvious, so it gives you time to be alert for a soon to be revived enemy, and it makes the enemy teammate using necro a more vulnerable target since they are a sitting duck when using necro.
I think necro is perfectly fine in both teams and solo. The MMR is the only issue for me.
Easy way to fix the balance of necromancer is it burns a bar when used. so for solos you lose a bar when going down and lose a bar when standing up. This would speed up the game and balance the effects of solo self resing from safe locations. and ratty behavior. Team necro needs to take longer and be louder. maybe consume more HP from the person necroing. *not burnt though*
I see no downsides for either skill bracket. ppl cant farm MMR as much. either.
During the Devil's Moon event, they had a white flash effect on a body when that player actually left the lobby. I'm honestly not sure why they ever got rid of it, expect for maybe preventing some toxicity
Ever heard of a learning curve? It's when you learn the game and the mechanics. So like learning people can hear you, how traps work, how mobs work. People that whine about necro are whiny losers. I don't use it because people instantly burn, trap and camp. It's trial by fire. When I died when it was added I was like damn I forgot to watch them. Fire, concertina, and go. The give it a shot mentality works for trios and duos too. I can run into a compound with katana and hope it works. And keep them burning? Wow lets just take all your hp bars in one go and watch everyone whines about that. Making it a burn trait is stupid. And oh no he to resilience so I can't just camp a body? Seriously if you got issues with this git gud scrub.
Although I dont agree with everything in this video, i appreciate the discussion, so I'm gonna weigh in with my two cents. Firstly if someone doesn't wanna "lower the stakes" they can not take the trait, so that one is solved. for the purposed solutions.
1. i dont love this, trait slots are tight, and in reality, this doesnt really solve the issue.
2. I dont like this either, necro is one of the only possible ways to get up against snipers, so if your buddy gets headshot right away, youre done for.
3. this idea is actually good, this would basically "finish off" the solo, or allow you to push against a team, may be too strong, but i like the idea
4. this sounds good in theory, but doesnt really fix any of the issues. typically i already know its a solo, now its a matter of getting enough fire to burn.
5. i dont like this at all, its already impossible to stand up against any decent player at close range, this just makes it so they dont have to shoot you.
6. i dont like this as it tells you if a team is finished off
7. i dont think this is neccesary, a well done necro against a sniper shouldnt be punished like a solo necro in order to remove burning.
8. i dont like this at all, if youre on a body, you can use your melee tool if you have low damage, or double tap, this would be a HUGE buff to snipers.
9. this almost sounds good, until you think about getting hit with sparks incendiary and dying immediately burning, incendiary doesnt need that buff (but should work in rain and not have salveskin nerf it)
10. this idea is ok, although i think the bigger problem is deranking, not so much the mmr reduction, which i would like to se fixed.
One additional change to consider is, if youre burning, you cant be necrod, this still means a team needs to invest something to finish you off, and would make it so you can push a team once their friend is on fire, not saying its perfect, but could be good! great video!
Self Revive has given me fun "hello boys! I'm BAAACK!" moments combined with voice chat. You can't just take that away
There was a sound effekt and light effekt if People left the game or was dead. That should come back. Then i knew when the solo was dead or just played dead
That was tied to spending an event point. It just so happened that everyone had death cheat and so during that event, it seemed like that was just a sound to tell you when someone left the lobby.
I wouldn’t be against that becoming a default noise when players leave.
My main issue with solos is that during chaotic fights it's impossible to know who's really a solo or not unless you've been playing for 5k+ hours.
I also hate waiting for a solo to burn out.
Solution: Teleport the solo outside of the compound.
This makes it so that solo's can't just get up and destroy a whole team with a katana while they're distracted with another team. It also makes it so that the solo can't be burned out and camped by the trio. Might have to get rid of trio necros though.
The only changes I would like to see are:
1. Solo with necro doesn't get an MMR advantage
2. Some sort of delay where MMR is unaffected for a short period after revive
3. Eliminate the burn trait "relentless". It breaks the flow of the game that someone can stand up at 150hp.
4. Eliminate rampage from the game. It disproportionately benefits solos and has no counter. Admittedly this doesn't really have anything to do with necro, but it makes fights unpredictable in a way they breaks the enjoyment of the game.
Anything beyond this - particularly turning necro into a burn trait - is taking it too far and will make the game uninviting for newer solo players. To be clear, I play about 50/50 solo and duos/trios. Solos are mainly a concern because I know they are higher skilled players than me, not because they might stand back up.
There are a few problems with removing the solo modifier. First of all a solo would have to play anywhere between 10-20 games before their MMR drops to a point where they meet worse players, so they have a decent chance to win. A solo is almost never going to win if all 3 enemies on an enemy trio are of equal skill. This creates a problem where jumping from playing with friends and going into solo lobbies is a pain for multiple hours, you would have to endure some absolute meat grinder lobbies until the MMR drops.
Secondly, solos are going to drop in MMR rather substantially regardless of wether or not they fix how volatile the MMR system is, or if self-res is a thing or not. Solos are at a HUGE disadvantage, and to have a decent chance at winning in this game, they will have to meet players that are less skilled across the board. Even before self-res was added I pretty much always dropped down into 4* and occasionally even 3* , even though I never dropped below 5* when playing in a team.
@@bluebird2540
I'd agree that removing the solo modifier completely may be too far. Perhaps treat a solo as a duo.
As it stands right now I have about 2x the win rate when playing solo vs trios as opposed to playing with a friend in duos.
That said I'm typically high 4 to low 5 stars. I can see if you're playing as a solo in 5 star lobbies it would be a different experience.
What if instead of just getting up your body burns away and you reform at like, the closest poi without players in it
I like the idea of Necro being a burn trait with charges, but only so long as you can still purchase it from the trait menu, and. Ot have to rely solely on rng from trait spurs.
Honestly, I think MORE traits with limited uses could make for interesting choices, since it affects how many other traits you can take!
Just make necro make alot of noise and visual feedback when people are doing it to solo revive and have it take a second and not instant. Solved.
I have never had a problem just burning every dead body i see. It also stops rats from looting my kills. This game is already slow i dont barely waste time burning bodies. Its just people who value other items over burning items and then complain cause they refuse to bring burning items. Just bring burning items and you cant lose unless you are somehow not conscious while playing which hunt players seem to love doing. Plus you cant complain about necro when you use it too (to everyone) thats just you whining about being scared to play the game solo. You never mentioned how trios would use necro with the event to never die and made fights last forever. Nerf necro for teams not solos lol.
Yep necro only becomes an issue when there are free ways to get bars back that you can carry into the mission plus the infinite red bar rez from the previous event.
Otherwise it's a skill issue.
Necro is an issue when you get third parties while sitting on a body. I don’t know about you but if I kill a duo or trio I loot, burn and leave so I don’t get gang banged by the lobby at the sound of gunshots.
i hate playing Solo because everytime i do, i get burned. And camped. But when streamers do it, they barely ever get burned 😂 i don't get it. Maybe its about the lobbies but idk.
Necro impacting MMR ranks is an issue. I like having the opportunity to put out a burning body before reviving it fully, but it seems silly that this is done instantly when starting the revive. It should take additional time to put the body out and then do the full revive. I can spend a fraction of a second putting them out, canceling the revive, and then revive them later in the current state. When using necro to put out a burning body I'd like it to make an obvious sound like a gust of wind or a poof sound. When a body stops burning with no one near it it's hard to tell if they burnt out or necro is happening. It should immediately make a loud sound heard at distance letting players be warned that necro has started. I believe this is only needed for burning bodies.
Have teams considered learning to watch a body like they would any opposing team body? You know, getting good?
Based?
The difference being in team fights the fighting is over once the team is dead. No wasting time camping a body of one guy that can stand himself up several more times, further draining resources.
@@bucky97 But it's already been the norm BEFORE necro that you should burn bodies you find alone, because they could have friends could come for the revive. That was time you should already have been spending
The one difference is team fights CAN resolve really quickly if the team misplays. Solos can't be dealt with quickly if they play recklessly, but teams can definitely take way more time to fully remove from the game if they play well. The issue is a downed teammember still haa teammates that can kill you. People somehow get offended if the solo can escape their watch/trapcoffin and manage to kill them, even if the team situation took much less skill/chance.
I've always suggested the changes to on-fire like you mentioned being an important change. The absolute most annoying thing is watching the solo body, them reviving multiple times, and running out flares and having to have one person camp the body as the other finds a lantern. Or a trio with 2 people getting necro'd every time they're almost out of a bar from being on fire. It just sucks.
I also think the way revives in general can be changed. Instead of just deleting a health bar, it should add a new type of permanent charcoaling equal to the size of the bar, and turn all current charcoal into permanent charcoal. So if you had a small bar, died, and a friend picked you up, you'd have 125 normal HP and 25 permanent charcoal HP instead of a fully deleted bar, which if functionally identical. But if instead you died, were on fire for 10 HP, then were put out, then revived, you be at 115 HP, with 35 permanent charcoal. It makes fire, fire ammo, and burning bodies stronger, significantly reduces the time needed to watch bodies being necro'd, and incentivized hunters choking teammates ASAP, since every second counts.
When they likely reintroduce restoration seals, this could probably work, but is probably a little overtuned otherwise. Having permanent intermediary damage without needing to burn through an entire bar after each "rest" would put small health chunks even further ahead. You'd also have weapons balanced around being just a few points under 125 have more opportunities to pin downed hunters from further away while only needing to down once to do so.
my main issue with solo necro is the lack of info. I think if there was some indication that the person can revive, itd be much less frustrating. Alternatively, I think its focus should be moved from keeping you in a fight to keeping your character alive. Making them wait to rez so their focus becomes "that saved my character so ill leave" instead of "let me rez and shoot these guys in the back". Coming from a solo player, most of my solo necro value comes from trades. so i was already using to save my character instead of keeping myself in the running for the bounty.
Solo Necro should teleport the solo to the nearest supply point that's free of enemies.
Boss' shouldn't spawn until SOMEONE has got all three clues.
ABSOLUTELY NOT. That's the wildest buff I've ever heard of. You want solo players to have 5 guaranteed chances to come back and kill? Dude, like... calm down. That would be a nightmare!
Boss spawns when all clues have been discovered would be interesting tactically speaking, lore breaking, and remove some RNG value to the player spawn system (a good thing). Not sure how I feel about it.
@@murdurmuffin7872
Teleported away from the battle so they have to re-engauge vs popping up 8 seconds later in the same fight, magically not on fire, just to shoot you in the back while you fight the bounty team.... Yeah.... Teleport sounds loads better.
@@jareddehart9107 How are there this many people having a hard time dealing with necromancer? I genuinely don't understand it. I don't even have 500hrs in the game yet and I've never had trouble locking one down. It's extremely simple, and your options are many.
Step by step instructions:
1) Kill him.
2) Burn him.
3) Trap him. (skip if you don't have or cant find any traps wherever you are, but damn really? You didn't bring any?)
4) Aim at the corpse until it burns out, or just simply leave the area.
If the corpse even twitches, just shoot. That's it. He's dead again, so you burn again... repeat until he's burned out or you are bored.
Giving a solo the opportunity to reposition and approach the fight again from any angle, 4 more fucking times? You are blatantly out of your insane mind. You don't realize it, but you are advocating for solo's having straight up cheat level powers.
@@murdurmuffin7872 First off, I never said 4 more times, that's entirely something you added. Furthermore I think you forgot how far away a supply point could end up being from a fight. They flat out might not be able to reengage at all if the bounties are already running for or near an extract.
@@jareddehart9107 Ah, you are just unfamiliar with the game then.
When a hunter is revived, for any reason, one of the health chunks on their bar is burned. The "last" (left) health chunk is always a big one (50hp), but the others can be small ones (25hp). Hunters start with 150hp regardless of the size or number of their health chunks.
Most who know what they are doing will respec the top 100hp to be small chunks to give them 4 revival chances in a match, with the 5 death being a complete burnout.
Your change removes all risk whatsoever for a solo player. They can never be burned out by other players, and will always survive the match if they aren't a complete idiot. This would allow solos to be hyper-aggressive without a tradeoff, and can essentially hunt down every player in the map before taking an uncontested bounty. You gotta realize other people don't think like newbies. They aren't going to take death = teleport powers and just leave you alone or be scared. I for one would abuse the absolute hell out of that system, hunt gods help you if someone like Psychoghost or Rexnor had power like that.
This is a REALLY, REALLY, BAD IDEA that would accomplish the opposite of what you want guaranteed.
every time they add content to the game, its only ever helped teams, until they added necro for solo, was the first real time that solos got any kind of buff. if u die to a player while watching their body u deserve it, we have all failed at paying attention. and we all have gotten up and killed the one watching the body. and its always the watchers fault. if a team doesn't insta burn{which is cringe but necessary} then its their fault, if u dont bring some kind of fire, if not one of ur teammates doesn't have at least one for of fire or trap its their fault, not the solo who is already outnumbered and outgunned.
if its a several team fight and a solo in there, the solo is still outnumbered and outgunned even if it gives the solo slightly more oppurtunity to come up and turn the fight around
if anything needs a nerf its the mmr system, u can go from one star to the next in one good game, and lose a star just by dieing off of necro, its not fun to kill one solo, then be forced to rekill the same solo 4-5 times to make sure he doesn't kill u, force u to rank up and put u in a rank u don't belong then actually be forced to lose, that's not at all fun and that is what needs to change the most far more than the mechanic, u should not be able to rank up off one successful game
u should gain mmr based on the highest ranked player u killed per match once instead of gaining mmr for 5 kills on the same person, and u lose mmr based on the lowest ranked player that killed u assuming u died more than once a match
easy mmr fix
devs also doubled range on serpent and doubled the amount of dark sight for solos with magpie ;)
Yep, good post, except instant burns don't do much besides starting the time pressure sooner (since standing extinguishes). What would be the "correct" play would be smoking, trapping, or poison cloud, since those all actually can punish a quick necro.
@@LeMicronaut yes but i did say if someone doesnt bring anything to deal with bodies than its their fault, but instant burnign although cringe, is one of the few things u can do to get the show on the road to making sure that player is eliminated
@@psyantologist yes but, i did say solo necro was the first actual buff solos ever got, the other buffs came out nearly ssame time or after
I like the idea of necro as a burn trait. I definitely agree that the mmr bit needs tweaking, but I'm not sure about the rest of the ideas. I think if Crytek made necro a burn trait, it would solve multiple things. I think they should make solos only lose mmr on the first down so people stop deranking
I feel like all arguments against solo Necro are invalid on some level because the people arguing against it view Necro as the problem, when the reality is that it's everything around Necro that is the issue instead. Combine that with a lack of critical thinking and a lack of knowledge of game systems in those groups of players, and I've found myself arguing with a lot of players with more brain rot than a Grunt. I feel like your proposed changes to fire, massively reducing the MMR adjustment that solo players get in general (giving solo players with Necro a different MMR adjustment is asking for trouble), either removing or massively reducing the MMR loss after the first death, and adding some kind of indicator for when a solo Necro player leaves the match would entirely fix solo Necro.
I don't think I agree with this. Camping a dead body, waiting for it to revive, it's not hard, making it easier for newer players is spoiling bad players. A game should never be balanced focusing newer or casual players, otherwise veterans will exploit those "newbie balances", that's exactly the problem with that garbage Dead By Daylight.
You play, you make a mistake, you die, you learn from it.
Things like "ugh, this is annoying" shouldn't be a reason to "fix" something, otherwise we would have patches and patches for shotguns, katanas, etc.
You have 8 seconds till Necro can be active + 2,5~3 seconds for the revive animation. If that's not enough for a duo, trio or even a solo prepare for the kill, that's probably on the player, not the game.
My wife for example, she's a great Hunt player nowadays, and she got killed by a solo necro a few times, she didn't kill them with one shot, they survived and killed her. Now she learned how to anticipate, reload, heal, before the time they take to revive.
In my opinion, that's part of the learning curve.
Though I would suggest that Necro should have limited activations, and MAYBE teleport the hunter to another part of the map before revive, because it's TOO EASY to just sit there on top of their bodies, waiting for them to revive just to instant kill them. Nothing you can do when they're burning your body, and pointing a gun at you, just waiting for you to get up.
Thank you for this video. Although I have to disagree for most or your changes some of them I think might be a good middle ground. However, what I think will happen the moment you nerf necro just a bit too much you will get the old solo-sniper play. I know I will fall back to that simply because it is by far the safest play style. Solo necro allowed for aggressive shotty solo runs without being Rachta^^. And if you argue "git gud"... well okay, solo sniping it is again.
There are so effing many ways to deal with the revive, and the flare pistol is the insta-burner.
I honestly see the biggest problem in the MMR-mechanics. If you end up with 6* players in 3* lobbies... that is absolute bs imho.
Anyway, superb work, thank you
Just 2 things would significantly reduce all the (unfounded) hate on solo necro. Fix the MMR deranking (only first death counts to lower rank), and update the tutorial to actually incorporate solo necro in the explanations. Or at least somehow make solo buffed traits MUCH more noticeable for new players. Not reading what a trait does is not an excuse for losing against it, and this is the number one major reason new players get surprised by a revive.
As for the "let's give it a shot mentality", don't blame the skill, blame the way people play.
i think necro should be limited to one use per game and burn 50hp regardless of health chunks similar to red skull revive, after that it's killed as solos and manual revive as teams. That way everyone gets one extra chance, not 5
I like the idea of making it so that MMR won't go down if you are killed within a certain window of rezzing in order to prevent MMR tanking.
I also think it would be good to make solo rezzing cost a bar (in addition to the one you normally lose to getting downed). I don't find getting killed by a solo that rezzed all that frustrating usually. But when I get downed by a solo that I have beaten several times already because another team showed up after I've been dealing with this solo over and over again and I have to deal with them, giving that solo the chance to rez for the 4th time.... I find that very annoying.
So what I've noticed is usually there are enough tools to deal with solo necro enemies when you win against them in relatively close fights, but not so much at longer ranges, which leads to one person or another being in an extended unfun scenario depending on which kind of fight has taken place.
It's not fun to be taken out of the match before you even had a chance to fight back, or to die to a trade, and necro alleviates that, but it also isn't fun to sit and wait because either you have to watch a body or greatly increase your risk of losing, or otherwise can't revive yet because you're helpless to fight back for much longer than it takes for them to just shoot you again. I want to try to alleviate all these issues so it's more fun for both the solo and the teams when interacting in fights with solo necro.
My ideas are as follows:
1. Time before you can revive as a solo is the longer of either 10 seconds, or a number of seconds equal to 1/3rd distance to the killing shot. This will give teams a chance to close distance on solo snipers trying to get pressure-free revives. This is the majority of the complaints I hear about solo necro that actually has no counter and plagues both low and high mmr.
2. after the time until being able to revive is up, you have a window of around 20 seconds or so that you must revive in, or else you lose the revive. This is mostly a spitball and the window for revive can be whatever seems most balanced, but this should cut down on the waiting. Most of the fun and dynamic plays I've seen with necro aren't seen after the downed solo has been waiting for 40+ seconds.
3. Reduce the time during revive animations where the solo player can't do anything. I know, suggesting a buff probably sounds bad, but when playing solo it does feel bad when you go for a revive but the enemy team has enough time to reaction shoot you 3 times over before you can do anything. This should make traps a better alternative, make camping the body (which is the boring method) a little more risky, and give solo players a little better chance to have some agency in those situations.
I had thought before that making necro a burn trait would be a good idea, but I've since changed my mind. I believe that would put necro in a position where, for newer players who might want the revive more to help ease them into the game, it will be much harder to obtain or force them to continue spending points (depending on if it's available for points still) putting their hunter behind in traits compared to more experienced players, but it will be easier for more experienced players, who are less likely to be using it as a safety net to ease them into the game, to get it. The gap between players who are good enough to manage their hunters and traits well, and those who aren't would be huge.
These are just my thoughts on the trait, if any of you made it this far, thank you for reading.
My only problem with solo necro, are those players, who willingly derank with it. It shouldn't be a bunr trait, there should be a cap, that makes you lose a certain amount of MMR per match and not lose MMR after each death.
I say a way to make Solo necro more bearable is to have a cap for how many rezs you can make a match, like an in game life system that doesn’t match your current HP. So let say at a basis for this idea, make it only possible to have two extra lives, and even if you have a health chunk to use, if you have already used up your two lives that’s it. I do like the idea for still being on fire when necro’d, either solo or from a teammate.
in case you haven't noticed: health chunks already are a cap to how many times you can revive
@@psyantologist And in case you haven't noticed, that makes you able to gain a total of f*cking FIVE extra lifes. And in case you haven't noticed this either: That is way too much.
@@Luna-Starfrost4 extra lives, five in total 125, 100, 75, 50 (and recall each one is weaker). If you assume each teammate gets revived once cause they aren't poorly positioning or getting necro'd against a team that isn't camping, that's a difference of 3 "saves". As a solo you can't really apply pressure to people who downed you, only hope another team intercepts.
@@LeMicronaut Non of this makes it any less bad.
@@Luna-Starfrost but it's one less extra life :P
Doesn’t need a change just put all solos in a game with each other and teams with the teams let the solos deal with standing up 5 times in a row with each other don’t punish teams for having friends 🤷
the staying on fire idea is actually really good idea and for it being a burn trait thats very interesting but i dont see it happening
Maybe something along the lines of using or last kill as an sacrifice could help balance it, since as a solo you would still be able to revive after a trade but players can't constantly revive as the need a kill before they can revive again, more thought needs to go into reviving then
Edit: I see that this is the 2nd option for fixing it, my bad
I am less worried about higher ranking solos in lower ranked lobbies than I am of the prestige 50 duo in my lobby
Nothing wrong with necro. It's easy to burn bodies and solos are only getting up one time maybe after you burn before going back to menu to go again. People have adapted to play around the mechanics necro offers at this point and if not then it's a skill issue.
Now when events that have easy ways to get bars back is the issue when combined with necro. Being down a bar is a severe disadvantage and many just extract because of it.
if you solo necro you can only restore health bars through boss banish, I would even argue that you can't restore bars by any means (other means such as event traits or the stash bandage don't work). That's a must... do I need to remind everyone solo necro with the trait that literally healed you from fire? yeah
As a long time player I've been frustrated with and greatly disliked the direction of balancing and the meta of the game for years now, with solo necro really being the final nail in the coffin that got me to quit. I come from a time in the game where the Double Long Ammo (Mosin or Sparks w/ uppercut) was the meta everyone hated, long before special ammo was anything more than ammo for the Dolch, Nitro, and crossbows. The game feels far, far, more forgiving than it once was and while I still feel necro (solo or groups) doesn't have a place in the game I do really like some of your suggested changes. Ultimately, I feel like self reviving was a band-aid fix when instead Crytek should have added a proper solo mode rather than the one that nobody likes to play lol
Glad to not see ya ❤
@@FriedaFlitz It's ok, you wouldn't see me anyway when you're all the way down at 2 star
@@bucky97 just proudly a 5-6* sniper, aka the root of all your issues and the reason you hate the game ;)
@@FriedaFlitz Sniping was annoying long before necro and isn't why I hate the game :p I quit because the devs consistently make changes that make the game feel more casual and less risky and I don't enjoy it anymore (don't hate it tho, love the aesthetic and lore still)
As someone who plays solo and got no friends to play with, I think necromancer is balanced. When I play solo, It's kinda unfair to play against two or three players at once, especially knowing that I'll get bee in my face and nade in my pants and on top of it being flanked. I have to be able to compensate for lack of manpower somehow. Plus each time I die, I get a penalty to my MMR. Maybe a good fix will be to have a solo trait that would double and triple your health when you play in a duos and trios lobbies.
my biggest problem with the burning in this game is that its too easy to burn now. All it has done in my experience is that the enemy team just hides waiting for your teammate to fully burn out and do it again if another squad mate gets down. 5-6 star lobbies of passive players doing nothing but waste time. I rather be pushed hard and immediately get downed as a full team fight or as last survivor just blow myself up to start the next match than to deal with that play style. IDK if people care too much about losing a loadout or their K/D to play like this but its so boring. 5k hours into this game and this has been my worst experience with this update thus far and it sucks because I genuinely love this game.
I agree with you on the necro front. If it was a trait that you could bring charges of, and was a burn trait, I think that would be fine. It would suck however to have to have it take up multiple trait slots when stacking, as I recall other traits that you could stack doing. I think it's mostly fine now as a non-solo unless you get spammed into wire/someone's waiting weapon.
Regarding fire: I almost think you should stay burning when downed/revived as well. It would be more of a pain to deal with as a solo or in teams and the chunk burning of things like dragons breath can be very intense. I just recently was in a match where I was hit by the bomblance dragon's breath ammo, then immediately followed up with a two tap from a bornheim incendiary ammo. I was then down to my last bar if I had been res'd. From FULL Health. seems a bit much, but I've not seen that situation happen a lot.
Maybe just 1 charge that replenishes when picking up a token/banishing
I'm pretty indifferent about solo necro tbh. Sure, it creates the annoying wait for burn out waiting games but solo necro rarely works. However, the waiting games should be solved in some point - like necro can only be used in a certain time window (10-20 seconds after death).
However, team necro... you are at full firepower and still got easy range rezzes of. Teammates can apply pressure and cover for you when you stand up so it works way more than it should.
Also it reinforces the long ammo meta since bodies suddenly standing up with 125hp (resilience)... God, I hate that trait. The game before necro was way healthier in that aspect.
I actually really like the idea of changing the revive timer. Make it so the revive button is available instantly, but pressing it starts a 10-second timer during which a sound effect is played on your body, and then you stand up once the timer finishes. That way, solo necro would be counterable in the same way that team necro is. I also like the staying on fire idea, though I think it should be clarified that starting a normal team revive should still put out the fire, so the person would only stay on fire after a necro revive and not a normal one. I also agree with removing the MMR handicap for solo players with necro, though for sake of logistics it would make more sense to make it a weak modifier (same as duo invite and trio random) so that solos in duo lobbies are less likely to go against players with more MMR than themselves.
You discussed the solo MMR penalty, but didn't touch at all on the impact necro itself has on MMR. There's a concept I like to call "fight winrate at equilibrium MMR" which assumes that the player has played enough of one mode exclusively (no mixing solo and teams, no quickplay) for long enough that their MMR has come to a stable equilibrium where it deviates from on a game to game basis but still hovers around the same number. What this means is that for every fight a person gets into, the expected value of the MMR they gain from that fight has to be equal to the expected value of MMR lost.
This makes it easy to see why the MMR penalty exists. If a trio fights a trio, each person will get on average 1 kill and on average 1 death, and both teams have a 50% chance of winning. Same with two solos fighting. But when a solo fights a trio, they need to kill 3 people to win the fight and will often get 1 or more kills but still lose the right. But they're also capped at at most 1 death per fight. What that means is that the probability of losing has to be equal to the weighted average of the probabilities of getting n kills, weighted by n. That's *real* big. For every won fight with at least 3 kills, the solo player has to have 3 lost fights with 0 kills. For every lost fight with n kills, the solo player has to have lost n fights with 0 kills. At equilibrium MMR without necro or an MMR penalty, solos will win fights far less than 20% of the time. And remember, extracting usually requires winning more than one fight.
Crytek's first fix was the MMR penalty. It basically means that solos gain 1/3 the MMR from kills as they do lose for a death. It means that one 3 kill win needs only one 0 kill loss to balance it out. Fight winrate at equilibrium MMR is still pretty low for solos vs trios; it's still a lot less than the 50% that trios have against trios, but you'll extract more than the abysmal 3-5% of the time like you would without it.
But then they didn't stop there, they added necro. Now a loss can be up to 5 deaths. That's 5x the expected value of MMR lost per game, since now each death can essentially count as 5. And at equilibrium, that means they must be getting 5x *more* expected MMR gain per game. That's enormous. Solos go from being stomped with 0 kills in an average game to winning at least 1 fight in an average game. This alone is why necro is the strongest trait a solo can take, even if you never expect to survive standing up. No other trait can come close to quintupling your kills per game.
A lot of people have suggested removing the loss in MMR from repeatedly standing up. I think that's an alright idea, but I don't want to go back to solos being able to lose only one death's worth of MMR per round. While it's not as bad as it could be with just the MMR penalty, the MMR penalty is not high enough to make it a truly reasonable solo experience. I prefer ideas that cause the deaths per game to be greater than 1 but not as extreme as 5. Making it a burn trait is reasonable for that purpose, or otherwise limiting the number of times you can revive. Though I will say that while forcing every solo player to deal with a 4 trait point tax on every hunter won't affect balance (MMR will ensure the same winrate whether or not the trait is burned) but does make playing solo less enjoyable.
I favor just having necro revives burn off a bar in addition to the each down burning 25 hp. That means that you could stand up a maximum of twice per game, down from 4 times. I think that's a value that could be reasonably balanced.
Making it a burn trait would make it completely redundant and it might as well get removed. There is no reliable way to get a burn trait and I am not going to run around and farm meatheads for the chance of getting Necromancer. If there was some more consistent way to get burn traits, then yes maybe. Burn traits is something you get when you are lucky, but you can't rely on them dropping to get your bars back either (which is why I think they're somewhat of a failed mechanic currently). They didn't remedy(pun intended) the current situation where players have been asking for ways to get bars back at all.
I would be fine with necromancer being nerfed to the ground if they changed the current trade system to how it was prior to the middle of 2021. Dying to someone with hing ping almost a whole second after killing them on your screen feels awful, and Necromancer is indeed a bandaid fix to that problem.
Being a burn trait doesn't necessarily mean that you have to find it in the world which I think is what he meant. You can still buy it with trait points but you then lose it after using it so that way at most you could only stand up 3 times each game.
I should have stated that it was to be a buyable burn trait. That was the intent.
@@devynmohnacky4652 @HuntShowdownLab That is an idea I could get behind then, as long as I don't need to rely on rng to get it since it's such a vital part of playing solo at this point. It was just a tad bit confusing since the only way to get burn traits currently is finding them in the world, killing meatheads and occasionally as a drop from Scrapbeak.
As a primarily solo player, solo necro has made the game infinitely more enjoyable for me. It probably shouldn't lower your MMR so much, though.
A burn trait is far from a good idea, with how they work - sorry to say. Unless they completely rework how they work. "Oh but then it's rare!" And then you lose a massive percentage of players who want to even play solo anymore - not everyone has a teammate, why are we so intent on making it impossible for people who do not have a steady group to play?
The only genuinely realistic and reasonable changes listed are the regen versus instant full-health from resilience, but even then, that doesn't fix the body-camping issue, people are still going to camp bodies then, removing any kind of counter-play for the solo player. Matchmaking penalty is definitely a step in the right direction - I, a 5* consistent solo player should not be seeing high 3* players in my lobbies.
They should also just make Necromancer something you experience in the tutorial - have it be one of the first things you see. You are shot dead after acquiring the perk, and it is explained that "you are not down and out" and a brief rundown of the mechanics, show an AI using it too.
I should have clarified that I intended a burnt trait you could buy like normal.
Necro is very important to enjoying solo play for me. It may be interesting if when you self rez you semi become a zombie. Not sure exactly what that would entail but my thoughts are going to having a speed or stamina debuff until you can drink at a healing spring or something that are around the map similar to how supply depots are. It should be yes I can revive myself but to be back to 100% I have to perform some action. Loot/eat a fallen hunter or horse or something. Just an idea I wanted to share. I really enjoy your content - well done as always!
I'm not great at hunt. I'm a middling gamer at best but when playing in teams it is often a fun challenge to go up against a skilled solo, like a mini boss fight. I do think necro should be fixed to be a burn trait or at least limit its charges but the MMR difference always feels fair mostly because of hunts design. All my deaths are earned, I failed a read or I failed to land the shot. I don't think dying to a solo popping back up is unfair, in fact I think its my fault for not bracing for them coming back up. Sometimes I have really funny encounters with a solo, a frantic fight over the body as the solo revives unexpectedly and downs my partner. I think only one or the other of the proposed changes should go through. Necro at higher levels is fine the way it is since more skilled players know to burn/set traps and also have better aim and gamesense so there is no need to nerf it. So fix the MMR system. Or go the other route and leave the MMR system as it is and nerf necro. I prefer a fix in the system rather than nerfing a symptom.
0:43 in casual games that matters cause its EXPECTED that you will have people who will never pursue getting so good they become a part of the upper echelon of players but hunt is not only inherently competetive but MEANT to be inherently hard and at even just 4 to 5 star, necro is completely trash 9 times outta 10 cause either at that point, your good enough to not even die most games if your a solo player who has made it to that rank by yourself AND in the cases where you do die, unless you are both willing to wait for literally 15 minutes usually while also ensuring you die in the middle of 2 teams so niether can burn you out and the one that showed up to kill the guys who killed you push them away from your body not realizing you can res meaning its honestly really BAD but CAN make the game more enjoyable when ya get domed by a bush wookie sniper and save your ass in those critical moments if you use it VERY intelligently and tactically to maximize its benefit. beyond that the concept of needing to burn dead players AND that anyone can res even if no one has shown up is always going to be there and if they are a solo, even if they can res in just 8 seocnds, it still shouldnt matter if you are even half awake and paying a tiny bit of attention to them after insta burning them or placing a concertina trap on their body. full stop the only reason people complain is because they want a boogeyman to blame for their own trash play or lack of consideration when they were building their loadout...
2:44 this was ALWAYS a thing with necro and the base fact that you NEVER knew who DID or DID NOT have a teammate waiting to res em... this IS NOT new to hunt in any way but the people who most often run into solos now a days are the low level new players who dont know this and so they blame necro cause necro fucks up the mmr with that is actually the one change i feel it NEEDS as a 4 to 5 star player before necro was changed who now regulars 3 star cause i like playing solo v trios and even when it goes right, im liable to loose a star just through the base way that necro was made in a way that never considered the mmr which was fucking stupid and despite now years of us solos saying for crytek to change this and simply remove the mmr loss if you necro revive, they have yet to make that simple change and so the low level new players complain and bitch and moan cause they dont realize necro is so damn easy to counter that its not even funny...
beyond that not only does hunt have a solid player base but also its pretty much as on the tin as fucking dark souls, prepare to die edition just how seriously hard this game is meant to be and so either they can look up guides or quit and that might sound harsh but quite frankly, there are SO DAMN MANY things like this in hunt that make people quite like the leading the shots or that quick TTK or the power of shotguns, bows and crossbows that in the hands of skilled players is immense but in the hands of noobs is all but useless to the trades to the sound design requiring to much intuitive learnign that flaout, getting rid of one issue that makes em quit means nothing and both only waters down the game for an audience that just flat out are not EVER going to be hunt players while also ruining what those who DO play it like cause again, its a competetive game meaning you HAVE to build around the best players and EVERYONES goal should always be improving to the point that they are a member of those good players who the devs have to balance around.
4:35 NO YOU FUCKING DONT... THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE AS NECRO HAS ALWAYS BEEN A THING SO YOU DONT KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO STAND UP RANDOMLY EVEN IF YOU CAN WATCH EM.......... this is the biggest flaw in the argument of people who hate necro or think it should change like you where you guys dont comprehend this has always been a thing and act like its new when its really fucking not.....
4:48 YES IT FUCKING IS AN ANSWER!!! if your not in a fight than sure its not but again, if your not a fucking incompetent moron, you were already burning all bodies out ANYWAYS cause ya never know who has a teammate and wanna make sure that a team doesnt run up and save their friend and than flank you at boss compound or something and while in a gunfight it 100% is a solid answer and choice since you cant keep everyone down permanently so easily when facing good players who will push you and you need to both accept that and bring guns that can down someone after 1 or 2 shots like the springfield or the sparks or the mosin or the uppercut/uppermat pistols or literally anything that does 125 dmg to the body at its max distance before its damage falloff so that way even if they do get back up, one shot to the chest is all ya need to drop em again which is why so many people just extract after losing a bar cause whats the damn point after that point if you wanna be serious when you play and not just instantly die with only suicidal fucks like me who enjoy a good fight regardless of the outcome would still charge down the boss lair with a shotgun and a dream...
ok ill go in order of why your change ideas are bad or at least ok:
1) no, burn traits are rare enough and this is no different than saying to just remove it from the game all together especailly when its nowhere near good enough to justify using it if its a burn trait as while its a necessity for any solo player as a normal trait, thats only because it offers A CHANCE.... ultimately, its still a BAD AS HELL trait that fucking sucks so much that you often are better off just leaving the match when ya die to an enemy team unless you KNOW there are going to be other teams who show up soon or are fighting the team who killed you OR you died in the water and maybe can revive and save your hunter and your shit.
2) i could actually be ok with that one since it would reward for killing someone but i would only be ok with this possible change if it was ON KILL and not ON LOOTING A DEAD HUNTER as well as YOU CAN SAVE UP these revives so 4 kills and you could theoretically revive with each bar ignoring if you got a burn trait or if they add a trait like the looting a dead hunter side of peacekeeper where you could get bars back for looting dead hunters which i think should be in the game.
3) no, that would make it worthless to the point that no one would run it anymore if a single loot ended you permanently and rewards players who are bad at making good loadouts with burn tools or concertina mines always avalible and punishes those cocky enough to think that they dont need to burn em and can just keep killing them even in a team fight.
4) if this replaced the current timer than maybe so that way its a channeled thing you can istantly start doing but if you decide to stop or decide to wait, when you do do it finally, it adds extra time on top of the time you waited to your revive meaning timing it right to be able to get up will be even harder but still managable especially if it was the normal revive timer of like 6 seconds i think it is instead of 8 which helps offset how big a nerf this is.
5) no and AT MOST only if they are 5m away but even than, no. if they are sitting on your body and let you revive than thats on them for being stupid as hell... again, dont reward bad players for not knowing how to stop revives as its an integral mechanic that is a big part of the fun and skill of learning how to keep people dead regardless of if they are solo or not.
6) HELL NO... there ALREADY is a plenty good mechanic that if you fail to be good enough to make use off, its on you being that when they leave, you see smoke raise from their body meaning you can know for sure that was a solo player and they just left the game.
7) only on the team side where i think perhaps it costs you a health chunk to burn out instead of just damaging it meaning to necro revive a friend isnt so free nerfing how strong teams are.
8) no. you ALREADY AT BEST get back 125 hp which to most medium ammo and long ammo guns is a 1 shot and to shotguns, bows, and crossbows is a guranteed 1 shot 9 times outta 10. again if you make a bad loadout, thats on you and you should not be rewarded like this against such a bad trait meant for solo player who already are at a MASSIVE disadvantage with i would say to just bring back the part of peacekeeper that gave health chunks back on looting dead players so teams can be techincally immortal especially when compared to solos who they already have a massive advantage against on the revive front.
9) no, its bad enough this happens when get hit with a fire bomb cause it almost certainly gurantees another bar lost instantly and so giving this to burn tools like flare and flare guns is too damn op and not needed. again if your in a team or make a good solo build which in my opinion should always have a flare or flare gun and concertina mine, there is no issue and you should be just fine at stopping them from ressing even by yourself.
10) no, just make it so you dont loose mmr unless you leave the match or its your final death where you only loose mmr for that death specifically. now the general solo handicap can be discussed i would say since the SBMM is kinda fucked with how it pits solo 5 stars against like a team with a 3 star, a 1 star, and a 4 star and thinks thats 'FAIR' but thats a SBMM issue and not a solo necro or really just necro in general issue.
Transform the necromancer trait with a consumable, one use and high cost
Here's my subjective experience with only 250 hours (pres 3). I've had to learn the hard way about necro both in solo and team experiences.
1.- Making necro a burn trait takes away opportunities from a solo player. Maybe if it was limited to 3 instead of 4, solo players wouldn't need to respec with all small health chunks and benefits both parties.
2.- This sounds like an absolute nightmare from a solo perspective. Think of a team 3 stacking your body, burning you and you have to either lose all of your health chunks or get up and face imminent death. At that point, it's too situational and gains an unfair tip in balance in favor of teams, especially considering how prominent trades are.
3.- Kind of the same situation albeit slightly less damaging as 2. Even if its solo vs solo, necro would have to have an instant revive, or looting times would have to be altered for this to be an enjoyable experience for solo. Teams on the other hand, for sure.
4.- I didn't understand the revive timer concept but the sound could certainly be louder. Even though I enjoy the satisfaction of coming out on top from a silent playstyle. Maybe they could add another trait that quiets the noise back to what it is now for the higher-risk hunters.
5.- This is another that I'm sure could be worked out to practical use, but would require a lot of reworks from the devs with burning/trapping bodies etc. I think it's a good idea on paper but I only see this being abused by teams by floating around the area until you're fully burned out. This just doesn't sound fun.
6.- I don't see a big problem with this, as it significantly reduces the chance that you pick up bounty, kill the last player and he's a solo and wipes the team afterward, but I can just smell a 4 star camping the body just to be an ass. Nonetheless, having more information makes the game less ambiguous and I'm here for it.
7.- I truly believe this would work on teams with some other changes to solo that synergize with this, as they simply regenerate health from a variety of ways. Maybe a dropped/inventory health kit, regen/vitality shots, or Ghoul. From a solo's perspective, you were much closer on point with no. 1 due to the sheer disadvantages it holds from burning an extra health chunk. Does this mean 100 instead of 50hp or literal chunks? If it was hp oriented, there needs to be other ways to restore smaller amounts of health similar to lawful pact, creating an opportunity for the team to pursue or leave when hunter necros.
8.- Again, good on paper and I agree with other fundamental changes. My first thought is body trapping that ruin this. Concertina bombs will give the hunter a very small opportunity to escape, but can still be eventually broken out of in the right circumstances. This still results in 3-4 deaths. This is exactly the reason why current necro NEEDS to be paired with extreme patience (in the case of a poison bomb, lasting 8.5 minutes.. sheesh) or resilience. Currently, concertinas kill instantaneously without resilience as well, so using this method WITH res in mind, traps in general need to have an activation delay or something as they will immediately kill and won't be fun. Unless you mean as soon as a hunter gets up they get 50 hp and rapid regen following if they haven't been hit by concertina or poison.
9.- I'm noticing a pattern catering to teams with these changes xD.. I agree that insurance to deter a solo from popping back up with full health is probably long overdue but we have to recognize why solo necro is what it is. This is a 3v1 (or 2v1 or 1v1) so there's full advantage given to the team especially, because solos either have to get up while burning and run around bhopping and crouch maxxing while matrix dodge this'ing from the rifles and shotguns of 3 people most likely carrying dumdum, poison, or dragons breath themselves. That's just a sadists wet dream. If the burn was 25% slower than light burns regularly are, then maybe stacking salveskin would make this not completely unplayable. Otherwise, scrap it.
10.- I had to sit and truly think about this one from the most unbiased point I could while remembering all the times I've gotten worked in 4 star lobbies. But then it started to sink in: this entire game is HEAVILY matchmaking oriented on everyone's behalf. The modifier is just a shoddy tool in place to keep solos relatively advantaged. The truth is, under the current matchmaking system, I don't think its hard for a good player to get into a game with necro, respec for max downs, and rinse and repeat until they're a 2 star my friend. In my case, I've been teeter-tottering on 3 and 4 stars but find that even with the multipliers and matchmaking help, I'm still getting destroyed in 4 star lobbies as a solo in trios AND duos. I might also add that other solo players with your levels also add a layer of dynamics to the threat count in game as a solo. So yes, I might get better but it won't be the same fun, and I can't imagine wanting to play solo should be punished in that way.
Overall, they're mostly good suggestions with some room for dev/community communication to really get it tuned to what it needs to be for live play. I think a lot of the points suggest that solo necro needs to be considerably displaced over teams, and while I can see why, I just don't see how it makes necro a better-feeling mechanic all-round. As for the people who think that necro shouldn't be in the game at all, I can't disagree with anything more. It's an essential mechanic that needs some reworking, but offers a greater level of strategy. So anything to keep this game from getting stale or too predictable, I see as an absolute win.
I agree, necro is absolutely a good thing for the game. I regret not making that more clear.
Thanks for the detailed thoughts!
Since trait respec is free, necro/res are in every game and regen shot neglects even the small health drawback. Even if I play solo, I wish they focus to improve random mm - team chat, comend system or whatever to incentivise to play the game as primarly designed and leave solo as hard option but with fix to trades first.
Only play solo but don't spam res, go down once or twice back to the lobby I go. Every character has a pool of 5-6 rez's, max of 3 per match, 4 with trait. Harder to refill. As you run low, may start a match with only 1 or 2 left. They have more value then. solo still gotta fight solos. The balance is really good with hp/high dmg weapons. First rez is so important
I don't want to disregard how people feel but clips like the opener just make me take these complaints less seriously. Sorry to break it to you but it's not "abusing a mechanic" to use a trait for its intended purpose and it isn't the solo's fault that you lost your cool and fumbled. You have so many options to prevent a revive (solo and team) in this game; if you have none of these options, you just need to accept that the fight isn't over and plan accordingly - the same as if it were a team except you have the undeniable advantage given you can shoot twice as many bullets.
My take on the burn waiting: 2 min burning a body vs 5-10 min loading to menu, re-equipping, queuing, and loading into the next match. Which would you prefer?
The only change I agree with is the MMR adjustment should be much less impactful. But most of the necro changes I see would nerf it to the point of being worthless, and would bring us closer to the old situation of solo sniper in a bush 200m away all game.
Opener clip wasn't me, it was a spectate I thought comical. And you're, I should have said that higher skilled players take advantage of the mechanic, not abuse it.
In retrospect I wish i would have dedicated some time to talking about the positives of necro. I think it belongs in the game, and is overall a good thing. Is there a way we can keep in the benefits it offers to solo without grinding gameplay to a halt? I don't have an answer, hence the brainstorm list. I think there can be a version of it that both solo only and team only players can feel good about.
The more the conversation continues, the more I think the MMR system is a if not the primary factor in conversation around necro.
@@HuntShowdownLab I agree with you about the MMR but the burn timer being inconvenient sounds like a burning problem, not a Necromancer problem.
I think that if you want certainty, you should have to pay for it. But burning has always been an awkward mechanic in this game and this is just another repercussion of it.