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Making Turpentine from pine sap for the Redwood Violin
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- Опубліковано 21 бер 2021
- I collect pine sap and and extract some turpentine. I try several still designs before finding one that works.
This is part of The Redwood Violin Project, designed to paint a picture of Sonoma County, California, as told through the story of making a violin, as far as possible, from locally sourced materials. I will be positing videos about collecting the materials, the people I meet, and about the process of making a violin, including things like making my own glue and varnish from scratch.
Materials for the violin are selected both for being workable substitutes for traditional materials, and with consideration for their significance to Sonoma County's history and economy.
More information about the project:
theredwoodviolin.org/
I am a violin maker with 30 years experience.
www.andrewcarruthers.com/
You are the best! Your one liners has me truly laughing out loud 😂❤❤
If you put ice water in the upturned lid you will condense the vapor faster and potentially capture more of it.
I wasn't expecting the pan with inverted lid to be so effective but I agree, that adding ice will make the yield increase dramatically
I loved this video! Best fails ever, elegantly executed. 😊
I did learn a lot, though, so thank you very much!
These are the best types of videos, showing all the testing, of what works and what doesn't. And then what works best. I have been struggling with DIY stills also and love the ufo idea. the ufo idea is the same for distilling for water, but it didn't even click to me to use it for oil.
You are a life saver!
Ohh and I loved watching this video, I could see just how much joy you got also from the experimentations.
No comments really just came to see your video. I'm just learning myself.😁
Subscribed! This is totally my speed. I love learning from experimental people (like myself), & renaissance men like yourself. Anyway it's kind of wonderful how the simplest of methods was the most effective in the end.
My dear friend, why not use the modern glass chemistry bits to assemble a still? There's no contamination from the copper that way and you don't loose anything. I think the Liebig condenser is the easiest, you just need to get a pump for a fish tank or such to pump water through the outside (to keep it cool) and then I think you'll need the flask and the angle fitting.
5:25 you got a laugh out of me with that awesome dad joke. I was not expecting that haha.
These geomagnetic storms are so polarizing.
Pretty sure you need to put the lid on before it boils. You lose a lot of the turpentine because it boils off at lower temperatures. Also if you use a smaller copper coil cooled in water, it will work much better.
Is turpentine the condensation collected from boiling pine sap?? I thought it was alcohol extracted. Because it's called "100% pure spirits", but I guess it could mean either.
I like your attempt. Here are my tipps:
At the bottom you put an empty can, may a little smaller, than the one above.
The can above, filled with raw material and some small holes at the bottom to release the resin in the can below.
On this you wanna put a smaller tube upwards on the lid, before it goes in the cooling tube.
This is for rectification, that separates more efficient.
Look with what high proof Rum is made, a Colon Still sometimes with additional dephlemgators (for a controlled steam flow resistance, steel or copper wool in the rectification tube or in the helmet is the poor Man's choice, read Warning for further Information)
Cooling with a bucket of water is OK, but you want the water moving, so it cools more efficient.
To seal it, the old moonshiners used a paste of rye flour with water.
The tricky part is heating the middle can without heating the bottom can more than necessary.
If all goes well, the resins collect in the empty can at the bottom and the fluids coming out are more clear separated by boiling points.
You also don't wanna collect it all in the same container, but in a few smaller numbered jars.
Maybe the resin is mixed with oils and turpentine and just needs to be distilled again.
When making booze, they measure at the highest point where the steam goes into the cooling tube.
With that and their nose, they decide when to cut the head and the tails of, so the "schnapps" doesn't become a headache soda.
For nonfood applications you'll may even use putty weld to connect the rectification tube and the cooling tube.
The old Alchemists often had a so called helmet to connect the boiling kettle with the cooling tube.
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🚨⚠️WARNING!⚠️🚨
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⚠️Under pressure the boiling point increases.
⚠️If then the pressure falls immediately because f.e. the lid gets blown of, the overheated liquids (sometimes solids to) evaporate at the same moment, creating a feared boiler explosion.
⚠️Google steam locomotive explosion for comparison.
⚠️Now imagine that, but with a 🔥flammable🔥 liquid instead of water, sometimes around 🔥open🔥flames🔥.
⚠️➡️Control the flow way each time you start and Control the temperature of the boiling can.
⚠️➡️Those infrared thermometers work fine, but they don't like shiny surfaces.
⚠️🚨When the temperature rises to way more than you expect the boiling point of your product to be, KILL THE HEAT IMMEDIATELY !!!
F.E. when making Moonshine and the kettle shows over 100°C, the tube is probably blocked or the kettle is boiled dry.
⚠️Both are bad and require to stop immediately.
thanks alot
Thank you, God bless you!
exited for this video, Love the info ,, thanks a Lot
fantastic vid, thanks for sharing!
Commercial resin already has the turpentine removed as it's a by product of that process. Dry resin has virtually no water content to carry the turps hence why you get not much activity from that. Add distilled water to drier sap and it will hugely increase your yield. Also extracting to a gravy separator jug allows the water to be poured off the turps once settled. Ideally using runny resin fresh from a pine is what is best. Search commercial turpentine production videos from the USA and it shows the process better. Nothing like pottering away in the shed tho! Loving the experimentation :)
I would think the pine oil would be a good outdoor wood preservative. See how it soaks into wood and give it a day to dry and leave the board out in the rain over a year and see if it retards the rain.
Amazing
The Teapot is the most effective IMO but lacks only One section about 6" back from the pipe exit that slides through two holes in a metal bucket that is then filled with cold water and/or ice so that condensation happens more quickly. Great vid nonetheless¬!
the turps has dissolved the lanolin in the sheeps wool hence the brown colour
Nice, I'd reccomend using a double boiler, or just setting your pine can in a pot of boiling water. This will prevent it from getting too hot and breaking down
Turpentine comes from pine sap i believe. Rosin is the result from removing the terpentine. Nice vid
Very resourseful! Your varnish looks really good. Hope she will dry nice and hard for you. Just a suggestion you might try amber. Yes it is very expensive but may yield superior hardness. Ive never tryed disolving amber in acetone. Wonder if that might work? Whatever you do dont boil turpentine it will explode!. Its easyier to just get artist grade turpentine and use that. I have used clear fingernail polish full strength and used it to varnish my carved bridge. It works suprisingly well. I have been using it for 3 months and it resists being cut into by the strings. Im pretty satisfyed with clear nail polish as a varnish for violin bridges. I suppose one could varnish an entire violin with nail polish but you would need really good ventilatiom. Hope this helps. Your redwood violin sounds wonderful I remember when you had the lady play it! Bye for now.
Diamond G in Patterson Ga makes real turpentine. Turpentine was the 3rd largest industry in Georgia for 200 years.
They do indeed! I've been using their turps for years, its a lot easier than making your own.
Nice video, but you might have better lick if you tap the tree yourself. Cut a square of bark off and chop into the first few layers of wood. Staple a bag against the tree, or arrange some other way for the resin to drip into a container. This will give you resin (it's not sap) with a much higher turpentine component, because much less will have evaporated. In one week you can collect a litre of resin from just a few trees.
There are archive videos from 19c.
You can't distil what isn't there in dried old crud.
Right tree, right time, right country, right method.
All the details are available including temperatures.
It was a hard job for poor workers. Go find out.
I think the "pine oil" as you've alled it is the same as the brand name cleaning product PINESOL which removes EVERYTHING from EVERYTHING
It was a nice hobby experiment, I liked it after all. If you knew how to distill fruit spirit, it would've been the same method. In case of trying rosin, you could've expected the failure at the beginning, since rosin is made of resin with oils and volatiles removed.
Hmm, try twisting and gently stuffing the wool into a tube through which the vapor is passed. That might saturate it. By the way in some chemical analysis of old master paintings they have found small traces of pine oil or a very thin sap. It's possible they were using an impure turpentine to thin the oil paint and so some of it registers in the analysis as pine oil or sap.
Interesting about the paintings. I varnished the fiddle twice . the first time using a varnish with the oily turpentine. It started a heavy craquelure within a week, presumably because the impure turps was evaporating more slowly than Im used to , and was getting trapped in the lower layers. I wonder if those old master paintings show more craquelure than usual?
@@redwoodviolin I don't know about those paintings specifically, but we oil painters are taught to be very careful about how we lay down our layers to avoid cracking and to not to do a final varnish for a year after the painting is complete. The varnishes we use are usually damar dissolved in turpentine and filtered. We add drops of linseed oil or lavender oil to the varnish as needed for extra flow because it's a little sticky. We sometimes varnish between layers of paint to provide a bed into which the next layer will settle and adhere. We paint into it while it's still a bit tacky. Either way the lower layers of a painting have to be very physically thin and either thinned with a lot of turpentine or lavender oil or just very physically thin and completely dry before the next layers are applied so that it doesn't seep moisture out or dry at a vastly different rate than the upper layers which are thicker and less thinned down. The type of pigment we use is also important because some dry faster than others so if you are using a stain use an iron oxide type like umber and that will help as it contains some manganese to add in drying. But I also know that the kind of wood you use can make a lot of difference. Ebony for example should not be varnished as it will seep moisture and crack. Fingerboards, bridges, and tuning keys are sometimes made from ebony. Not only should you thin your varnish down considerably and give it at least two weeks to dry between layers, but also make sure the wood is well seasoned and that the humidity in the shop isn't too high. I think you are probably right though. Sap seeps out so there's a good chance that the impure turpentine was the issue. Linseed oil has to be washed with water to purify it. The oil is put into a container with water or salt water and sand and shaken. The mucilage adheres to the water and eventually settles between the water layer and oil layer and the oil can be drawn off the top or decanted and the process repeated to purify the oil more and more. Lavender flowers can be added to the oil to help and the oil is sat in the sun to further clarify and purify it and we call this sun bleached. Sun bleached washed oil doesn't yellow very much at all. If a hole is made in the top of the container it will partly polymerize making a thicker oil we call stand oil. It takes about six months to create good stand oil, but it can be made commercially faster than that with heat in a vacuum. There are times when we prepare our canvases with a varnish made from shellac which is the common varnish used for violins. It provides a more slick less absorbent surface to paint on, but it can crack if bent since shellac dries harder than pure linseed oil. So it's also possible that one layer you applied had too much shellac. I don't know. I think you are probably right though. It's probably a problem with the purity of the turpentine. I would think that distilling it again with a regular stove top alcohol grain-still would probably fix it leaving most of the sap behind.
The source pot needs to be higher, the tubing needs to have a coil, collection bucket in a cold water bath with a lid so vapor can condense before it is able to escape.
when making varnish they use amber what is resin from pine trees just older i kinda want to think if you processed tree sap into amber by cooking and cleaning it and allowing it to cool it would be the same thing . how ever im off track . when you make the varnish you have to use oil why not use the pine oil . im sure you could run it through a cheese cloth or cotton t shirt to clean up the brown and clear it up if you wanted to . or even run it through some activated charcoal . but hey very interesting and would love to see varnish made from tree sap . as im almost sure that Stradivarius and armada did not order it off line . be safe when using these methods very dangerous . your hillbilly still is a winner . but in order to keep it from contamination it really need to be made of glass . good luck with that . kinda makes sense why clear varnish was hard to get back in the day . but then again maybe if you let it sit for a while it will clear up on its own . all the contaminates might sink to the bottom .lol dint realize this was two years old my bad .
I'd assume the way rosin gets hard is the evaporation of the water and turpentine, so I wouldn't expect any from the hard stuff you bought?
tray to distill with steam eather than direct. hot plate using steam generator made with copper pipe bended to a helix shape filled with watter continuously and exposed to heat sorce
You can use aluminum pipe instead of copper.
You needed a better condenser. The plastic condenser you made was close except nearly all plastics are poor thermal conductors. If you ever try this again, look up how to build a Liebig condenser. One can easily be made with regular copper parts from Home Depot.
Put some ice water in the glass lid
Can fhe pine oil be used as a fuel?
How about useing a small pressure cooker as they are sealed along with a thin diameter copper pipe bent like the one you used leading to the hillbilly still? Youl keep the heat in the evaporate long enough to stop it condensing, maybe you'll get a better yield.
Also loved "still making stills that dont work" 😂
it would probably work well. I only had small quantities of sine sap to work with so a smaller vessel was more appropriate for me.
Do you happen to know how to make vernissa? Is it turpentine and pine sap or turpentine and rosin?
I wonder if the wooly still is also contributing lanolin. You're not using it, but it would make the violin very soft and silky!
I did wonder if lanolin might be the lost ingredient in the unreproducable Classic Italian Varnish
@@redwoodviolin I just explained the device to Paul and remarked, "If they used raw wool, it would have been crawling with lanolin." And it dawned on me, with other things too, mites and ticks etc. You may know they make a red dye from a species of ladybug. Raw sheep wool also has dirt and awns. I was just stabilizing a horse hair bag from Afghanistan; had all sorts of bits of grass, seeds and sand. You're explorations into these things are fascinating!
You have to cool it. With ice.
I was wondering about the 'wooly still' technique you mention. Can I ask where you heard about it? It may be related to a quite ancient technique for capturing pitch oil. Dioscorides mentions it in his De materia medica (1.72.3) : "There is also pitch oil made from pitch by separating the liquid
element of pitch. For it stands on the surface pretty much like whey and it is removed by means of a clean woolen cloth suspended during the boiling process over the pitch; when the cloth becomes drenched by the rising steam, it is squeezed out into a vessel, and this is done as long as the pitch boils" (Lily Beck's translation). Amazing to think it's still something in the collective memory. Would love to know if it's also in print anywhere.
I heard about this verbally as a student in violin making school. I couldn't find anything about it on the web and I am glad to hear of your print reference, and I'm sorry that I cant offer you any other. As you can see from the video, I failed in my attempt with the wool but I have a colleague, Joe Robson, a professional violin varnish maker, who tells me that he has done this with some success. Perhaps he has a deeper insight to the precedents. violinvarnish.com/
@@redwoodviolin Thanks -- I'll write to Joe Robson. We're going to try it next week as part of some experiments about ancient perfume making. I'd say what you ended up with in this vid is close to what Dioscorides describes (pitch oil). Hopefully we'll post some results soon and let you know.
@@alchemiesofscent1093 Please do! Most of the oil that I ended up with has a pungent tarry, sooty smell that lingers. I imagine that it might be useful in controlled amounts
Nice earring. Said no one. Ever. It's time to let it go, mate. You're not an edgy 12 year old girl anymore.
Most of the turpins have evaporated from the rosin you are using.
Using fresh gum rosin would be much more productive.
ua-cam.com/video/QzNxPY3ewas/v-deo.htmlsi=4OHrY8wCQEWOaq0r
Some basic research on stills would have saved you a lot of time.
Go away
🤣still making stills that dont work. Well thank you for failing so we dont have to
You don't look or did native. What are you doing on naive land?
You don't look like Suzan Wojcicki, what are you doing on UA-cam?
what an ignorant comment... or is it naive?
This was awesome! Based on your videos, I collected some sap from Austrian pine trees (in the mid west, not in California). It made excellent resin/varnish, but I could only get a few drops of turpentine. I want to try again here in California, but I'm having trouble finding pine trees that produce sap. I started searching and found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_jeffreyi
Interesting story about how pinus jeffreyi is not good for making turpentine. Do you happen to know which type of pine tree you collected sap from?
Any tips for finding pine trees with sap in the bay area?