This machine is actually been in the market for a while, originally branded as Gemilai CRM3007. This particular one is model CRM3007L. The manufacturer is Corrima (hence the model code CRM). If you order more than 50 unit, you can ask Corrima to put any brand to be stamped on the machine. I have the gemilai brand one and it works well, been happy with it so far 😊
I believe in Indonesia these machines are branded as Ferrati Ferro while in Malaysia and Singapore they should be branded as Gemilai. I have seen the 3200 model but I haven't seen the 3700 (this model). Wondering if the 3200 is more capable.
I own MiiCoffee's Nano scale. I am very happy with it so I can imagine that this machine could be a pleasure to use, especially based on this review. You know, you make some of the better and easier to watch (listen to) video reviews out there. Kudos, thanks and keep it going!
Awesome! I've been saying there is no reason that someone could not make a $500 machine that does what the $4000 ones do, it's really just cheap computer controls which are a commodity. I'm OK with white box, Turin is through like one company in US while Miicoffee is on Amazon! Yes, I think this will drive more companies to build these feature in order to compete, and while that is a race to the commodity bottom for them, it's a win for us!
I just received my Turin Legato last monday 1/22. My first real foray into espresso. I love it so far. Its a great entry level machine especially having PID. I was originally looking at the Gaggia Classic Pro Evo before i learned of this and was worried about trying to learn espresso while temp surfing. This machine has been great to me so far. I do agree the water tray is super shallow and messy and im thinking of plumbing in a drain because i feel i empty that tray daily. I use a MHW 3Bomber .8mm puck screen, so i have seen the puck stick to the group head. i havent messed with the flow control valve but i may this weekend. Overall this video was great
Thanks for watching and congrats on your new machine and the beginning of your espresso journey! I would definitely say this is a better option for most than the Gaggia, especially if you don’t want to tinker and modify to turn the Gaggia into something else entirely.
@@Sprometheus thank you and haha I like tinkering and modding. But I figured Id start with a good base to learn as well without the need to tinker and mod in the beginning. I'm waiting to see what the espresso community comes up with mods for this machine.
This is really cool to see. I hope it influences Gaggia to update the Classic Pro with a PID and Pressure Gauge. I'm curious, do you feel a fully modded Gaggia Classic (with PID, Dimmer Mod and Pressure Gauge) would be equal to the Apex?
I sent my brother in law a link to espresso outlets early bird deal and he snagged it for $400 which is just crazy good value. I think this machine will definitely push more manufacturers to make better entry level machines at the $500-$750 price range. Also I really don’t care about white labeled products as long as they’re good and fairly priced. I love to see this hobby become even more affordable without having to sacrifice much quality in the product. Pairing this machine with the new DF54 is a crazy sub $1000 plug and play setup.
I bought a Turin Lagato and one thing I hated right away was the Espresso cups I had would not fit with the Mii Espresso Nano scale. Found a very small Ramekin and round bowl (about 2 inches tall) in the Kitchen Gadget section at Walmart very cheap, and they fit perfectly and will work just as good as a cup. Will be playing with it shortly. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for the review. I plan in buying this machine as soon as I decide to get the right grinder for the job and move forward from filter coffee only. Thinking about the DF83v to future proof a bit.
Thanks for this. Here is an interesting entry in to the beginners market. As you mentioned it was inevitable that DF would jump in. I'm the owner of a GCP which was recently modded with PID,, pressure gauge and flow control. I like the idea that one can jump into a very capable machine at a reasonable price. With the debut of the DF54 you'd be able to get high level espresso without breaking the bank.
This is my first real espresso machine at home. I had a Kitchenaid machine but it was just awful. As a barista, this checked all my boxes for a good home machine, and I won’t be looking to upgrade for a while.
I love my machine i have the legato version.. ITS SOLID!! If your on a set budget and want good coffee this is your choice i think. I dont regret the purchase at all. Thanks for the video spro. I bought mine after watching this video.
in hungary we've had this machine (to be more precise, its predecessor - without pressure gauge, smaller thermoblock and non-adjustable 2-2s pre-infusion) for at least 3 years now, no major complaints as far as I'm aware of apart from the lack of steam power, which seems to be mitigated by the larger TB. also, putting in an OPV is quite easy and makes a world of difference.
I've had my Apex for about a week. I opted for this one over the Legato because of the upgraded pre-infusion feature.... and because the latest shipment of Legatos hadn't yet cleared customs (impatient). So far so good, although I haven't even messed with temp, flow or pre-infusion as of yet. Just knowing the temp is at an acceptable level is a great improvement from my last setup. As for the "White Label" issue, I'm coming from an Italian made machine I have 3 of, all with different branding. Saeco Via Venezia, Estro Vapore, and Starbucks Barista, so it's not just a China issue. I'm excited to start improving my espresso game with this, and by the time the warranty runs out, will be ready to mod the heck out of it. If an OPV can be added, an Arduino upgrade (as evidenced by the Kafmasino) can't be far behind, right? I wouldn't know what to do with that information right now, but I bet in a year or 2 I will!
I own a gaggia classic pro and installed a pid. Am really happy with it. This got my attention though. The shot timer, steam thermo block, bigger boiler and small footprint would be welcome here. I also like the looks but that i just my opinion. I also just god a df64 gen 2. And boy am i happy that i waited for the second generation. Ill keep in eye out for any updated versions for sure. Because the little issues you mentioned will really annoy me. :)
As always, a nice concise review with very clean b roll. I agree with you that the machine benefits from reducing the flow a bit. I reduced mine to about 5 ml/sec and that gives me a good result - better than out of the box. I don't believe however that these will be iterated at the same rate as the DFs. It seems these are different manufacturers, and the Apex has been on the Chinese and Hungarian markets for some time already. But, hopefully I am wrong, and they will soon iterate it with an OPV. :)
Thank you. Lack of OPV and adjustment seems strange, maybe, in a couple of iterations this will be addressed and the "buttons". Once those sorted this seems a good the very good entry machine - and for a college room or small apartment could be in service for years.
You’re welcome, and absolutely. I think it’s fair to say it’s a solid buy as is, but I’m sure with any potential updates it will be even more impressive.
My main concern with white label products is support and repair. I currently have an pretty much unsupported espresso machine (Calphalon Temp iQ), but I am fine with it since I picked it up used and cheap. What is MiiCoffee's track record on warranties, repair, and parts supply?
In Vietnam or Asia in general, this machine is called gemilai crm 3007L, and I ordered it brandnew for only usd 350 at local supplier.. some sell for 400.. so it is even more excellent than gaggia or profited go.. mine will arrive in 2 days.. the only unanswered question is how long it last!
Could you please open the machine and check if the vibration pump is connected to some white plastic part with two tubes and a red rubber on top? I have the CRM3605 and this part is an adjustable OPV using the screw under the rubber (however, hardly anyone knows that it can be adjusted). Maybe the Apex has the same part coming from the same manufacturer.
I really hope this signifies a turning point. When I got into espresso back in 2016, the only machines worth mentioning below $1k USD were the Breville Barista Express and Gaggia Classic Pro, and the internet didn't recommend the GCP because of the aforementioned issues and the fact you'd have to buy a grinder separately. Today there are many single boiler machines
Yeah I think with the growth in the home coffee space more machines like this will hit the market in the coming years. I think an OPV is a modification some folks have done, but it’s not something I’d try personally, but I’m sure it’ll have one on the next go around. And wood accents are easy for sure, even 3D printed options. I’m sure they’ll be available on Etsy in a matter of months.
In Europe and around the world, a lot comes down to regional pricing policies. For example, in my country there is Gaggia officially, and its price is very close to the price in the US, but Sage/brevilie is total different story
Yeah the MiiCoffee Apex on Amazon so far pretty crappy reviews on the few so far posted. I’m not in the market for one of these but would love to see it succeed. We shall see
This is definitely an interesting and welcome addition to the market, but I’m happy with my Gaggia Classic Pro with PID, a 6.5 bar spring and IMS shower screen. I know it will be reliable for years.
As an owner and reader of reviews, there has been reliability issues with the steam wand. I'm getting my unit rma'd but this is sad when you know this isn't a one off issue.
Well I don’t know the flow rate on the AV version, which should be more or less static. But the the MP varies based on how open the paddle is. At its lowest it puts out 2.2g/second and 8.1g/second on full open.
Great review as always. Would love to see you do a review of high extraction baskets - the Weber, SWorks, Pasedo, etc. Very tempted to give one a try, but don’t like the idea of having a fairly involved cleaning process each time to try to get fines out of the holes…
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. On the topic of high extraction baskets, I have tried a few, including the WAFO option that seemed to spearhead the trend. Personally, I didn’t like them all that much. In fact in my year end Q&A I said they’re the most overhyped trend of 2023. I just didn’t like what they offered in the cup, especially for $200 a piece, but it’s all preference based.
@@Sprometheus That’s interesting. They do seem to measurably improve extraction, so I am curious to try, but agree the price of some of them makes way too expensive to just buy as a curiosity. But the Weber and Pasedo ones are a little bit cheaper, at least.
@@ashfanman personally I won’t ever support or buy a Weber product again. So that one is out of the mix. I may try the Pasedo at some point. But I’ve done a lot of extraction chasing and only found that the grass isn’t always greener for my tastes.
It looks like they have already started to address some of the issues just as you predicted. I am very interested in a few machines like the Profitec Go or Ascaso Uno, but for my uses of making a really nice espresso and occasional milk drinks I really love the idea of a very similar looking machine at half the cost without the long wait times between espresso and milk frothing. I’m intrigued by the combination of the single boiler and thermal block for both its consistency and efficiency. I’m looking to upgrade from my Breville infuser and something like this might just fit the bill as I recently upgraded my Breville grinder to the DF64 which has already made a huge difference in the espresso. I’ll likely only upgrade once the Breville starts to fall off a bit more as it’s already almost 10 years old and still running pretty well. The big issue I noticed with it is the lack of consistency after one or two shots in temperature.
I'm interested in the contrasts we see in the specialty coffee space. Lots of focus on farmer equity and fairness. But if we can get a grinder for half the price then there doesn't seem to be any concern for the lives of the workers.
This is true. But, the issue I think we run into, especially in the Western world, is that folks assume that because some workers in China are mistreated, underpaid, etc means all are. And every country has their labor rights issues, late stage capitalism is really hitting hard. Here in the US illegal child labor is on the rise. That said, I’d love to have more transparency from equipment manufacturers on workers rights in their factories.
@Sprometheus I completely agree. There are likely a wide range of experiences. It seems likely that the average Italian worker is treated and paid better than the average Chinese worker though. But you're right, we would need specifics
To be honest, if they iterate on the flow control screw for better UX when adjusting during the shot, the lack of opv is not gonna bother me. Other than safety concerns, but if this is the same familiar pump from other cheap machines it should be limited to that 15-16bars anyway, but an opv would've been a nice second layer of safety in case something goes wrong, having it set to higher than 10bars wouldn't even be a problem due to the option to adjust the flowrate. The components do seem familiar, looks like every other cheap machine, but if it keeps the cost down I don't mind.
This seems like something the community could do in the meantime. I will likely be trying to model & 3D print something to help that be a tool-free experience. Repositioning it would be even better, but I'm just excited they have altered the pre-infusion settings already.
@@charliebecker Yeah, community support for the DF64 was insane, you guys are awesome! I'm not good with 3d modelling, but I'll look into ways of integrating a smart profiler around the manometer, or even solutions for direct plumbing as soon as I get my hands on one of these. First thing I'm gonna do is of course make a wire mesh drip tray to replace that slab tho.
Yes. I have the Turin Legato and have found that with the same grind and prep I can bring down the pressure a bit by lowering the flow rate. I get a consistent 8 bar with a more restrictive flow and am very impressed with the results.
While both the DF grinders and Apex/Legato are imported into the US and sold to consumers by the same companies (MiiCoffee and Espresso Outlet), my understanding is that they are manufactured by two different and totally unrelated companies. DF grinders are made by Ningbo Frigga Electric Appliance Co while Apex/Legato espresso machines are made by Guangdong Gemilai Intelligent Technology Co., Ltd..
I think you're right that these are two different manufacturers for the grinders and espresso machines, but the sales companies behind them are Turin and MiiCoffee. Those two said companies are basically vetting the Chinese market for us, choosing the good products, and marketing them to the western world. At least that's my estimation of the situation.
Great review! With that price point it definitely is something to consider... I have a cafelat robot and in my head it only makes sense to move up when I'm ready for the $1000+ price range for a semi-automatic since I am pretty happy with the quality of espresso of the robot. With the great review and the price of the apex, definitely reconsidering and will have to think more since I desperately would love to steam some milk.
Ooof. That’s tough. I think the 9Baristas shots often compete with machines well above its price point. I think the shots themselves aren’t so much the question between them and more so the lifestyle. I mean the 9Barista isn’t really the same as working with a full-on semi-auto machine. Some days I just want no fuss and the 9Barista hits that with flying colors and other days I want to nerd out and have more control and the Apex goes more that direction.
Is the machine really from the same factory like the DF grinder, or is it to make a comparison? I’m super happy with my Kafmasino, wich is an upgraded Apex or Legato, with the features of a Decent or a Sanremo You.
Very happy with my Turin DF64V. This machine is interesting. I think I would pay the extra $500 for the build quality of the Profitec GO. Sadly, there isn't a black GO to be found anywhere right now when I am in the market to buy. So now I may have to up my budget to something like the Bezzera Unica or something :/
This machine looks like they basically modified a Solis Gran Gusto which is a decent machine on its own. Looks like a nice "pro" edition upgrade over the Solis.
I got one of these a few months ago under the Turin brand and it has been EXCELLENT so far. I have previously only used my dad's gaggia classic to compare to, but this is a much better experience
"...the folks in charge of the DF grinders, set their sights on, or took a swing at espresso machines", is a bit of a stretch. This espresso machine has nothing to do with the DF grinders. DF grinders are made by Ningbo Frigga Electric Appliance Co Ltd (located in Ningbo), the reviewed espresso machine is from the line up of machines made by Guangdong Gemilai Intelligent Co Ltd (located in Guangdong). Turin is just the brand under which these are marketed in the US, nothing more, nothing less.
Good concise review….pity they could not have added the OPV….. Even though I have decent E61 machine now, I did start on the Gaggia classic.(30 years) Fully modded, PID etc, it is still a single boiler! Time will tell if it’s going to be a ‘classic’
I reluctantly buy chinese made espresso accessories because nobody else makes them. But when it comes to expensive, high end products like espresso machine, grinders etc, there are many options. Chinese products are simply not reliable and fail in longevity department. Though there are very rare exceptions. But these products are designed and owned by US companies but manufactured in China. Not the Chinese brands. On a flip side, not every US, Italian, German made product is great. But those products or brands tend to die off. There is a reason why best coffee shops don't use chinese grinders or espresso machines. We all should get a cue from that. But if it is price prohibitive then keep buying junk.
I’ve got a fully modded GCP that I absolutely love, but I’d prefer something like this to ease the workflow. But, no OPV is a deal breaker. I’ve gotten happy with 7 bar, and not being able to control that will keep me away from it. I’ll have to wait for the Gen 2 that will have an OPV.
MiiCoffeee/Turin products feel like something made by asking ChatGPT to design a grinder or espresso machine and then manufacturing. Maybe the company is actually just run by robots?
A 58 mm portafilter is not a feature it's just a measurement, It doesn't contribute to better espresso shots. It's just a legacy from E61 group heads if my history is correct
Respectfully, it is a feature. It massively increase compatibility with accessories, especially higher quality ones. Precision baskets, filter papers, puck screens, tampers, distributors, fancy WDT tools, etc etc etc. The bulk of which are designed for a 58mm basket. (Though other sizes do exist, they are far more rare)
@@theSnowpup the availability of accessories for the 58mm basket is just a result of the trend, even though you can find easily everything for all sizes thanks to the internet, the the sheap DeLonghi models got their 51mm IMS basket
I'm torn between the Gaggia Classic EVO Pro and this one. On one hand, there's the appeal of a brand with over 80 years of experience and a well-established machine backed by a large community. On the other, there's a newcomer brimming with innovative features, yet it still hasn't stood the test of time. It's a tough choice.
@@ThePlainDane I decide to get the Gaggia, but I got the Classic Pro (not EVO) because of the Boilergate. It's a descent machine, but the learning curve is a bit too much. Temperature surfing, steam control, etc, are things you'll need to do unless you decide to mod it with Gaggiuino
This is identical to the many generic 58mm Lelit clones coming from China (see for example the AVX DB1). I'm guessing they commissioned the same factory to manufacture the machine under their name.
Oh yeah, there’s a handful of different names across different regions, and like I said in the intro it’s definitely a white label machine I don’t think anyone is denying that at this point and it’s impossible to hide in an online world.
@@Sprometheus for the entry level baristas, a safe choice means they will lose less, while selling the machine and buying a higher end one. For all the rest of us, who crave for more interesting machines , for technology and innovation in the coffee industry, we need more and more players (companies) in the game
All these Turin products are gonna be like the OnePlus phones. They get called the flagship killer and value kings. But they will marginally increase in price until they are no longer that attractive.
I personally don't like white label products. to me, it feels like they can cause complications when it comes to warranty and support, as they put a lot of the responsibility on the company that puts it's logo on it in different regions. It feels like there's one extra middle man to go through if you need support.
Yes indeed they’re still buying them making hundreds of shorts and ticktock videos getting millions of views… most probably inside hate them but hey it’s all about the views isn’t?
So basically, the pre-infusion doesn't work. It's interesting that all these UA-cam videos over the past few months have been raving about the Turin, MiiCoffee, Gemilai... that has been around for the past 5 years. So, why now? My guess is that Turin (Espresso Outlets house brand and really the only thing they almost ever have in stock) is trying to capitalize on the recent success of the DF64 grinder. And all these UA-camr's are, shock, probably bought and paid for?
Bought this on Amazon, price was great. Total garbage. Not a well built machine but I guess that should've been expected at this price. Returned it almost immediately. Stop calling these things "killers". It's a poorly made machine at a decent price, that's the truth.
The thing that I find more disconcerning and borderline infuriating is that these chinese brands (both turin grinders and the ones under which this machine is sold) do pretty much everything to disguise as not chinese and preferebly italian (Turin being a city in Italy where pretty much espresso was invented), i think this practice is quite disonest and just makes for a higher percived value misleading the client
Well, the judgment has come in from Amazon customers who actually buy the machine and not paid influencers. The jury agrees that the machine is rubbish, the case is closed.
@@Sprometheus Of course, I forgot, all of you youtube influencers live only on thin air, despite that you look unusually well-fed, who do you think you are fooling
Seriously? Comparing this to Gaggia Classic? It must be a joke. Everyone knows that Gaggia is barely usable, but with just a few mods, it's amazing. And if you want to take it to the limit, just do a gaggiuino mod like I did, and get yourself a poor mans Decent.
This machine is actually been in the market for a while, originally branded as Gemilai CRM3007. This particular one is model CRM3007L. The manufacturer is Corrima (hence the model code CRM). If you order more than 50 unit, you can ask Corrima to put any brand to be stamped on the machine. I have the gemilai brand one and it works well, been happy with it so far 😊
I believe in Indonesia these machines are branded as Ferrati Ferro while in Malaysia and Singapore they should be branded as Gemilai. I have seen the 3200 model but I haven't seen the 3700 (this model). Wondering if the 3200 is more capable.
@@Raditramin indonesia this machine called as latina altro V2
“And you young Apex. We will watch your career with great interest.”
May the coffee be with you.
I own MiiCoffee's Nano scale. I am very happy with it so I can imagine that this machine could be a pleasure to use, especially based on this review.
You know, you make some of the better and easier to watch (listen to) video reviews out there. Kudos, thanks and keep it going!
Awesome! I've been saying there is no reason that someone could not make a $500 machine that does what the $4000 ones do, it's really just cheap computer controls which are a commodity. I'm OK with white box, Turin is through like one company in US while Miicoffee is on Amazon! Yes, I think this will drive more companies to build these feature in order to compete, and while that is a race to the commodity bottom for them, it's a win for us!
2:15 Ah yes, the POO feature
Comes free of charge with all coffee.
I just received my Turin Legato last monday 1/22. My first real foray into espresso. I love it so far. Its a great entry level machine especially having PID. I was originally looking at the Gaggia Classic Pro Evo before i learned of this and was worried about trying to learn espresso while temp surfing. This machine has been great to me so far. I do agree the water tray is super shallow and messy and im thinking of plumbing in a drain because i feel i empty that tray daily. I use a MHW 3Bomber .8mm puck screen, so i have seen the puck stick to the group head.
i havent messed with the flow control valve but i may this weekend. Overall this video was great
Thanks for watching and congrats on your new machine and the beginning of your espresso journey!
I would definitely say this is a better option for most than the Gaggia, especially if you don’t want to tinker and modify to turn the Gaggia into something else entirely.
@@Sprometheus thank you and haha I like tinkering and modding. But I figured Id start with a good base to learn as well without the need to tinker and mod in the beginning. I'm waiting to see what the espresso community comes up with mods for this machine.
This is really cool to see. I hope it influences Gaggia to update the Classic Pro with a PID and Pressure Gauge. I'm curious, do you feel a fully modded Gaggia Classic (with PID, Dimmer Mod and Pressure Gauge) would be equal to the Apex?
I sent my brother in law a link to espresso outlets early bird deal and he snagged it for $400 which is just crazy good value. I think this machine will definitely push more manufacturers to make better entry level machines at the $500-$750 price range. Also I really don’t care about white labeled products as long as they’re good and fairly priced. I love to see this hobby become even more affordable without having to sacrifice much quality in the product. Pairing this machine with the new DF54 is a crazy sub $1000 plug and play setup.
I bought a Turin Lagato and one thing I hated right away was the Espresso cups I had would not fit with the Mii Espresso Nano scale. Found a very small Ramekin and round bowl (about 2 inches tall) in the Kitchen Gadget section at Walmart very cheap, and they fit perfectly and will work just as good as a cup. Will be playing with it shortly. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for the review. I plan in buying this machine as soon as I decide to get the right grinder for the job and move forward from filter coffee only. Thinking about the DF83v to future proof a bit.
Thanks for this. Here is an interesting entry in to the beginners market. As you mentioned it was inevitable that DF would jump in. I'm the owner of a GCP which was recently modded with PID,, pressure gauge and flow control. I like the idea that one can jump into a very capable machine at a reasonable price. With the debut of the DF54 you'd be able to get high level espresso without breaking the bank.
This is my first real espresso machine at home. I had a Kitchenaid machine but it was just awful. As a barista, this checked all my boxes for a good home machine, and I won’t be looking to upgrade for a while.
So having used both, which do you prefer? The Crossland CC1 or the Apex?
I love my machine i have the legato version.. ITS SOLID!! If your on a set budget and want good coffee this is your choice i think. I dont regret the purchase at all. Thanks for the video spro. I bought mine after watching this video.
in hungary we've had this machine (to be more precise, its predecessor - without pressure gauge, smaller thermoblock and non-adjustable 2-2s pre-infusion) for at least 3 years now, no major complaints as far as I'm aware of apart from the lack of steam power, which seems to be mitigated by the larger TB. also, putting in an OPV is quite easy and makes a world of difference.
Can you expand on how to install the OPV? Is there a link to a walk-through?
What is it called un Hungary? Thanks!
@@ebooyens AVX DB1
@@ebooyens AVX DB1
@@ebooyens AVX DB1. The one seen in the movie will be the DB1 Plus and there will be another one called the DB1 PRO. The new ones will arrive in May.
I've had my Apex for about a week. I opted for this one over the Legato because of the upgraded pre-infusion feature.... and because the latest shipment of Legatos hadn't yet cleared customs (impatient). So far so good, although I haven't even messed with temp, flow or pre-infusion as of yet. Just knowing the temp is at an acceptable level is a great improvement from my last setup. As for the "White Label" issue, I'm coming from an Italian made machine I have 3 of, all with different branding. Saeco Via Venezia, Estro Vapore, and Starbucks Barista, so it's not just a China issue. I'm excited to start improving my espresso game with this, and by the time the warranty runs out, will be ready to mod the heck out of it. If an OPV can be added, an Arduino upgrade (as evidenced by the Kafmasino) can't be far behind, right? I wouldn't know what to do with that information right now, but I bet in a year or 2 I will!
this is a no brainer with the recent gaggia boiler gate
I own a gaggia classic pro and installed a pid. Am really happy with it. This got my attention though. The shot timer, steam thermo block, bigger boiler and small footprint would be welcome here. I also like the looks but that i just my opinion.
I also just god a df64 gen 2. And boy am i happy that i waited for the second generation. Ill keep in eye out for any updated versions for sure. Because the little issues you mentioned will really annoy me. :)
Thank you. Always enjoy the new Friday video!
As always, a nice concise review with very clean b roll. I agree with you that the machine benefits from reducing the flow a bit. I reduced mine to about 5 ml/sec and that gives me a good result - better than out of the box.
I don't believe however that these will be iterated at the same rate as the DFs. It seems these are different manufacturers, and the Apex has been on the Chinese and Hungarian markets for some time already.
But, hopefully I am wrong, and they will soon iterate it with an OPV. :)
Thank you. Lack of OPV and adjustment seems strange, maybe, in a couple of iterations this will be addressed and the "buttons". Once those sorted this seems a good the very good entry machine - and for a college room or small apartment could be in service for years.
You’re welcome, and absolutely.
I think it’s fair to say it’s a solid buy as is, but I’m sure with any potential updates it will be even more impressive.
My main concern with white label products is support and repair. I currently have an pretty much unsupported espresso machine (Calphalon Temp iQ), but I am fine with it since I picked it up used and cheap. What is MiiCoffee's track record on warranties, repair, and parts supply?
In Vietnam or Asia in general, this machine is called gemilai crm 3007L, and I ordered it brandnew for only usd 350 at local supplier.. some sell for 400.. so it is even more excellent than gaggia or profited go.. mine will arrive in 2 days.. the only unanswered question is how long it last!
Could you please open the machine and check if the vibration pump is connected to some white plastic part with two tubes and a red rubber on top? I have the CRM3605 and this part is an adjustable OPV using the screw under the rubber (however, hardly anyone knows that it can be adjusted). Maybe the Apex has the same part coming from the same manufacturer.
A teardown elsewhere shows that it does have that same opv. It's not really adjustable though. Adjustable by the factory maybe.
@@immaedb can you provide the details of link to the teardown?
You should have given Kafmasino a review. It's literally this machine with custom internals. It has its bugs but in the end makes good shots.
That look super interesting, hope it comes to the States soon
I really hope this signifies a turning point. When I got into espresso back in 2016, the only machines worth mentioning below $1k USD were the Breville Barista Express and Gaggia Classic Pro, and the internet didn't recommend the GCP because of the aforementioned issues and the fact you'd have to buy a grinder separately.
Today there are many single boiler machines
Yeah I think with the growth in the home coffee space more machines like this will hit the market in the coming years.
I think an OPV is a modification some folks have done, but it’s not something I’d try personally, but I’m sure it’ll have one on the next go around. And wood accents are easy for sure, even 3D printed options. I’m sure they’ll be available on Etsy in a matter of months.
Excellent review full of useful info. Thanks
In Europe and around the world, a lot comes down to regional pricing policies. For example, in my country there is Gaggia officially, and its price is very close to the price in the US, but Sage/brevilie is total different story
Yeah the MiiCoffee Apex on Amazon so far pretty crappy reviews on the few so far posted. I’m not in the market for one of these but would love to see it succeed. We shall see
This is definitely an interesting and welcome addition to the market, but I’m happy with my Gaggia Classic Pro with PID, a 6.5 bar spring and IMS shower screen. I know it will be reliable for years.
As an owner and reader of reviews, there has been reliability issues with the steam wand. I'm getting my unit rma'd but this is sad when you know this isn't a one off issue.
Out of curiosity whats the GS3 flow rate?
Well I don’t know the flow rate on the AV version, which should be more or less static. But the the MP varies based on how open the paddle is. At its lowest it puts out 2.2g/second and 8.1g/second on full open.
I bought my Gaggia Classic to use it for the next 20 years. So far - 3 years - so good.
We are waiting for the review of the gaggia with a gaggiuino!
Sounds like a good machine that will probably have some quirks worked out in the next couple of years
It may even be worked out faster than that. They seem to work out kinks pretty quickly.
Great review as always. Would love to see you do a review of high extraction baskets - the Weber, SWorks, Pasedo, etc.
Very tempted to give one a try, but don’t like the idea of having a fairly involved cleaning process each time to try to get fines out of the holes…
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words.
On the topic of high extraction baskets, I have tried a few, including the WAFO option that seemed to spearhead the trend.
Personally, I didn’t like them all that much. In fact in my year end Q&A I said they’re the most overhyped trend of 2023. I just didn’t like what they offered in the cup, especially for $200 a piece, but it’s all preference based.
@@Sprometheus That’s interesting. They do seem to measurably improve extraction, so I am curious to try, but agree the price of some of them makes way too expensive to just buy as a curiosity. But the Weber and Pasedo ones are a little bit cheaper, at least.
@@ashfanman personally I won’t ever support or buy a Weber product again. So that one is out of the mix. I may try the Pasedo at some point.
But I’ve done a lot of extraction chasing and only found that the grass isn’t always greener for my tastes.
@@Sprometheus Are you able to say why you won’t buy Weber? (Completely understand if not.)
It looks like they have already started to address some of the issues just as you predicted. I am very interested in a few machines like the Profitec Go or Ascaso Uno, but for my uses of making a really nice espresso and occasional milk drinks I really love the idea of a very similar looking machine at half the cost without the long wait times between espresso and milk frothing. I’m intrigued by the combination of the single boiler and thermal block for both its consistency and efficiency. I’m looking to upgrade from my Breville infuser and something like this might just fit the bill as I recently upgraded my Breville grinder to the DF64 which has already made a huge difference in the espresso. I’ll likely only upgrade once the Breville starts to fall off a bit more as it’s already almost 10 years old and still running pretty well. The big issue I noticed with it is the lack of consistency after one or two shots in temperature.
I'm interested in the contrasts we see in the specialty coffee space. Lots of focus on farmer equity and fairness. But if we can get a grinder for half the price then there doesn't seem to be any concern for the lives of the workers.
This is true. But, the issue I think we run into, especially in the Western world, is that folks assume that because some workers in China are mistreated, underpaid, etc means all are. And every country has their labor rights issues, late stage capitalism is really hitting hard. Here in the US illegal child labor is on the rise.
That said, I’d love to have more transparency from equipment manufacturers on workers rights in their factories.
@Sprometheus I completely agree. There are likely a wide range of experiences. It seems likely that the average Italian worker is treated and paid better than the average Chinese worker though. But you're right, we would need specifics
I think they have already announced an upgraded version of this coming soon
Is the machine really better than Gaggia classic evo 2022
To be honest, if they iterate on the flow control screw for better UX when adjusting during the shot, the lack of opv is not gonna bother me.
Other than safety concerns, but if this is the same familiar pump from other cheap machines it should be limited to that 15-16bars anyway, but an opv would've been a nice second layer of safety in case something goes wrong, having it set to higher than 10bars wouldn't even be a problem due to the option to adjust the flowrate.
The components do seem familiar, looks like every other cheap machine, but if it keeps the cost down I don't mind.
This seems like something the community could do in the meantime. I will likely be trying to model & 3D print something to help that be a tool-free experience. Repositioning it would be even better, but I'm just excited they have altered the pre-infusion settings already.
@@charliebecker Yeah, community support for the DF64 was insane, you guys are awesome!
I'm not good with 3d modelling, but I'll look into ways of integrating a smart profiler around the manometer, or even solutions for direct plumbing as soon as I get my hands on one of these.
First thing I'm gonna do is of course make a wire mesh drip tray to replace that slab tho.
So if I understand correctly, the flow control screw can indirectly affect maximum pressure on the puck, all other things being the same?
Yes. I have the Turin Legato and have found that with the same grind and prep I can bring down the pressure a bit by lowering the flow rate. I get a consistent 8 bar with a more restrictive flow and am very impressed with the results.
@@phoenixtx Thanks! How do you adjust flow? Do you measure volume/time or do you have a portafilter gauge to measure static pressure?
Would you get this over a Silvia? I have an old Silvia, and besides the missing opv, the functions on this feels like such an upgrade.
Looking at retail price is one thing, but something like a GC will hold it's value over time, so will be a much lower overall cost when upgrading.
can it pull shots that look like the slayer? (im new to coffee community and i want a machine that pulls shots like a slayer does)
While both the DF grinders and Apex/Legato are imported into the US and sold to consumers by the same companies (MiiCoffee and Espresso Outlet), my understanding is that they are manufactured by two different and totally unrelated companies. DF grinders are made by Ningbo Frigga Electric Appliance Co while Apex/Legato espresso machines are made by Guangdong Gemilai Intelligent Technology Co., Ltd..
I think you're right that these are two different manufacturers for the grinders and espresso machines, but the sales companies behind them are Turin and MiiCoffee. Those two said companies are basically vetting the Chinese market for us, choosing the good products, and marketing them to the western world. At least that's my estimation of the situation.
Anyone know who the actual manufacturer is in China? Thanks!
I do. We just ordered 800 coffee machines.
Guangdong Gemilai Intelligent Technology Co., Ltd.
@@avx1981 oh wow thank you so much! Which market are you serving? We're based in South Africa
@@avx1981 I found the Apex in their products but they don't seem to be the manufacturers of the DF grinders. Wonder if they're not resellers
@@ebooyens Europe
@@ebooyens I do not understand.
Great review! With that price point it definitely is something to consider... I have a cafelat robot and in my head it only makes sense to move up when I'm ready for the $1000+ price range for a semi-automatic since I am pretty happy with the quality of espresso of the robot.
With the great review and the price of the apex, definitely reconsidering and will have to think more since I desperately would love to steam some milk.
Just get a Dualit milk steamer.
Which is easier and more consistent in making of a good coffee, MiiCoffee Apex or 9barista? If you had to choose just one of them, which would it be?
Ooof. That’s tough. I think the 9Baristas shots often compete with machines well above its price point. I think the shots themselves aren’t so much the question between them and more so the lifestyle. I mean the 9Barista isn’t really the same as working with a full-on semi-auto machine.
Some days I just want no fuss and the 9Barista hits that with flying colors and other days I want to nerd out and have more control and the Apex goes more that direction.
Is the machine really from the same factory like the DF grinder, or is it to make a comparison?
I’m super happy with my Kafmasino, wich is an upgraded Apex or Legato, with the features of a Decent or a Sanremo You.
Not the same factory.
What scale was that?
Very happy with my Turin DF64V. This machine is interesting. I think I would pay the extra $500 for the build quality of the Profitec GO. Sadly, there isn't a black GO to be found anywhere right now when I am in the market to buy. So now I may have to up my budget to something like the Bezzera Unica or something :/
Good sir, can you please review the VBM domobar super?
I have a suggestion for a future review. The barista express. The original.
Gemilai 3007L?
Damn now I regret getting the bambino plus now
FYI, it's currently priced at $399 on Amazon. No coupon needed. 11/8/24
Seems like a really good machine for the price.
Thank you my friend.
Of course, thanks for watching and have a great weekend.
This machine looks like they basically modified a Solis Gran Gusto which is a decent machine on its own. Looks like a nice "pro" edition upgrade over the Solis.
This reminds me of the crossland cc1
as with most things from the DF folks, the V2 of this is going to be the real winner.
unfortunately not yet available in europe.
Have a look at the Kafmasino, which is this machine but with decent-like control (available only in Europe)
@@asmith2886 yes, but too expensive
You can still buy the first generation, but the newer one is already being produced. There will be a more serious one.
I got one of these a few months ago under the Turin brand and it has been EXCELLENT so far. I have previously only used my dad's gaggia classic to compare to, but this is a much better experience
What about blind taste test with gaggia
"...the folks in charge of the DF grinders, set their sights on, or took a swing at espresso machines", is a bit of a stretch. This espresso machine has nothing to do with the DF grinders. DF grinders are made by Ningbo Frigga Electric Appliance Co Ltd (located in Ningbo), the reviewed espresso machine is from the line up of machines made by Guangdong Gemilai Intelligent Co Ltd (located in Guangdong). Turin is just the brand under which these are marketed in the US, nothing more, nothing less.
Huh funny, this machine has exactly the same steam knob and water tank as my satrap espresso XA.
Good concise review….pity they could not have added the OPV…..
Even though I have decent E61 machine now, I did start on the Gaggia classic.(30 years)
Fully modded, PID etc, it is still a single boiler!
Time will tell if it’s going to be a ‘classic’
Some guys is putting opv to this machine too
Glad I went with a profitec go lol
I still think the Gaggia Classic is better because of the Teflon coating flaking off from the interior of the boiler
I reluctantly buy chinese made espresso accessories because nobody else makes them.
But when it comes to expensive, high end products like espresso machine, grinders etc, there are many options.
Chinese products are simply not reliable and fail in longevity department. Though there are very rare exceptions. But these products are designed and owned by US companies but manufactured in China. Not the Chinese brands.
On a flip side, not every US, Italian, German made product is great. But those products or brands tend to die off.
There is a reason why best coffee shops don't use chinese grinders or espresso machines.
We all should get a cue from that. But if it is price prohibitive then keep buying junk.
I’ve got a fully modded GCP that I absolutely love, but I’d prefer something like this to ease the workflow. But, no OPV is a deal breaker. I’ve gotten happy with 7 bar, and not being able to control that will keep me away from it. I’ll have to wait for the Gen 2 that will have an OPV.
I’ve seen people in comments sections taking about modding an OPV on already but the instructions weren’t clear. It is possible though
MiiCoffeee/Turin products feel like something made by asking ChatGPT to design a grinder or espresso machine and then manufacturing. Maybe the company is actually just run by robots?
A 58 mm portafilter is not a feature it's just a measurement, It doesn't contribute to better espresso shots. It's just a legacy from E61 group heads if my history is correct
Respectfully, it is a feature. It massively increase compatibility with accessories, especially higher quality ones. Precision baskets, filter papers, puck screens, tampers, distributors, fancy WDT tools, etc etc etc.
The bulk of which are designed for a 58mm basket. (Though other sizes do exist, they are far more rare)
@@theSnowpup the availability of accessories for the 58mm basket is just a result of the trend, even though you can find easily everything for all sizes thanks to the internet, the the sheap DeLonghi models got their 51mm IMS basket
I'm torn between the Gaggia Classic EVO Pro and this one. On one hand, there's the appeal of a brand with over 80 years of experience and a well-established machine backed by a large community. On the other, there's a newcomer brimming with innovative features, yet it still hasn't stood the test of time. It's a tough choice.
Exactly my two machines and predicament! What did you decide to do?
@@ThePlainDane I decide to get the Gaggia, but I got the Classic Pro (not EVO) because of the Boilergate. It's a descent machine, but the learning curve is a bit too much. Temperature surfing, steam control, etc, are things you'll need to do unless you decide to mod it with Gaggiuino
This is identical to the many generic 58mm Lelit clones coming from China (see for example the AVX DB1). I'm guessing they commissioned the same factory to manufacture the machine under their name.
Oh yeah, there’s a handful of different names across different regions, and like I said in the intro it’s definitely a white label machine I don’t think anyone is denying that at this point and it’s impossible to hide in an online world.
The DB1 Plus will be the same model. The CE inspection is not ready yet. There will also be a DB1 PRO type, which can do even more.
Gaggia Classic and Rancilio Silvia are safer choices
True, but what’s the fun in safety? Also, the Rancilio is twice the price. At that point I’d get a Profitec GO
@@Sprometheus for the entry level baristas, a safe choice means they will lose less, while selling the machine and buying a higher end one. For all the rest of us, who crave for more interesting machines , for technology and innovation in the coffee industry, we need more and more players (companies) in the game
All these Turin products are gonna be like the OnePlus phones. They get called the flagship killer and value kings. But they will marginally increase in price until they are no longer that attractive.
☕☕☕ Love Is Important ❤❤❤
.. ... ..
MiCoffee is Gemilai
More tray than drip 😅
"A long press on the minus button brings up a poo"
I personally don't like white label products. to me, it feels like they can cause complications when it comes to warranty and support, as they put a lot of the responsibility on the company that puts it's logo on it in different regions. It feels like there's one extra middle man to go through if you need support.
$500? Geez. I paid $180 under the original brand that produces it.
Breville Barista Express for the win. Going strong since 2015. I know coffee influencers don't rate Brevilles 😂
Quite the contrary, there are coffee influencers who have their initials on Brevilles
Yes indeed they’re still buying them making hundreds of shorts and ticktock videos getting millions of views… most probably inside hate them but hey it’s all about the views isn’t?
PONY BOY!?
Rip Gaggia Classic
So basically, the pre-infusion doesn't work. It's interesting that all these UA-cam videos over the past few months have been raving about the Turin, MiiCoffee, Gemilai... that has been around for the past 5 years. So, why now? My guess is that Turin (Espresso Outlets house brand and really the only thing they almost ever have in stock) is trying to capitalize on the recent success of the DF64 grinder. And all these UA-camr's are, shock, probably bought and paid for?
Bought this on Amazon, price was great. Total garbage. Not a well built machine but I guess that should've been expected at this price. Returned it almost immediately. Stop calling these things "killers". It's a poorly made machine at a decent price, that's the truth.
The first shot you pulled in the opening footage looked ew.
The thing that I find more disconcerning and borderline infuriating is that these chinese brands (both turin grinders and the ones under which this machine is sold) do pretty much everything to disguise as not chinese and preferebly italian (Turin being a city in Italy where pretty much espresso was invented), i think this practice is quite disonest and just makes for a higher percived value misleading the client
Too expensive. 300-400 is what i was thinking
Well, the judgment has come in from Amazon customers who actually buy the machine and not paid influencers.
The jury agrees that the machine is rubbish, the case is closed.
Wasn’t paid. Still use it in my kitchen, no issues thus far. But do whatever you want.
@@Sprometheus Of course, I forgot, all of you youtube influencers live only on thin air, despite that you look unusually well-fed, who do you think you are fooling
@@dejedejsson it’s called ad revenue champ.
Seriously? Comparing this to Gaggia Classic? It must be a joke. Everyone knows that Gaggia is barely usable, but with just a few mods, it's amazing. And if you want to take it to the limit, just do a gaggiuino mod like I did, and get yourself a poor mans Decent.
Terrible reviews, no customer service. Buy from Italy or Germany first, maybe Spain at the least.