This is a scam intended to catch rich Americans. Before abolition of the feudal system in Scotland it was possible to buy a feu and with it a feudal barony, but it made you a "Laird." It did not put Lord or Lady in front of your name any more than becoming a "landlord" does.
@@psammiad There's an English version of this, the (legitimate) sale of the title of "Lord of the Manor" of this or that village or hamlet. Some people think that it puts "Lord" or "Lady" in front of their own name, or the place name: but you can change your name by deed poll at much less expense. Europe is full of ex-kings, or descendants of kings and pretenders, some of whom have a profitable sideline in selling fantastical titles. Others are not ex-anything, and just make the whole thing up. For example, there is a Grand Duchess of Russia who is in this business, and a Byzantine Emperor. France has three: a King of France, a King of the French and an Emperor, who sometimes grant the same dukedom to different people. What makes this a grey area is that ruling monarchs used to do the same thing. James VI & I openly sold baronetcies of Nova Scotia to Scottish landowners, and later Baronetcies of Ulster to the English, as did Charles I. Rich men were pressured to stump up the cash. Men became rich overseas from slavery or opium before coming back to buy an estate and often acquired a title as well. Victorian aristocrats as well as businessmen got rich before mysteriously becoming lords. The grossest example is the Dukes of Westminster, who had the good luck to inherit land in Mayfair before it was built up and well before they became dukes. We don't usually know who they paid, or how much, except for the Prime Minister Lloyd George, who had a price list for titles.
Hi @toldinstone! The name of the ritual that involved this latrine was "Sella Stercoraria" literally meaning "The dung chair." Clearly they knew exactly what the seat was for. The idea was a ritual of humility for a newly elected Pope, after which scripture would be read as he was raised out of the chair, as in "the word of the lord lifted him away from his despicable human condition" or something to that effect. I think a caveat might be in order.
Some people sometimes ask how an ancient Roman would react if he travelled forward in time. Seeing a king address a crowd from a toilet would probably be seen as an epic flex 🤣
@@MrJm323 I can only view yours. Probably deleted by the -Roman Censor- I mean algorithm. Now being able to read more when clicking "read more" is far more annoying.
The one that came closest was probably Lyndon B. Johnson who reportedly called people in to the shiter for meetings and scoldings of aides. I heard he even did an interview while taking a dump, quite the power move ;) Source (because this is unbelievable as is) among others historian Robert Dallek’s biography "Flawed Giant".
They still had toilets, but they preferred them to simply have a hole on top and otherwise be fully enclosed (just like modern toilets). If anything, it's the ancient Romans who were weird and unhygienic in this case.
I’m living in Italy atm and on a random street corner there is a marble bathtub that was used by ancient romans, and coming from North America it’s so surreal how history can literally be on every corner! I appreciate the videos!
I've never been to Europe but, just by traveling around the US you can really get hit with your own mortality. The existential "ancient history" laying around, and the ones that are new to you but, old to the rest. I could only imagine what a trip that be to be surrounded by it. I wonder how that constant reminder affects European humor and so culture.
"The toilets were misinterpreted as ancient thrones". I don't know what kind of home you grew up in, but in my house, we always called it the "Family Throne" 😆
Imagine being a civilization so culturally and materially advanced, going through such an all-encompassing destruction of your society that even a couple of fancy toilets that managed to survive become thrones to leaders of civilizations that follow you
Imagine being a rich and powerful global organization so out of touch with the common folk that you think seating your leader on a toilet would serve as some demonstration of humility.
Can we get a follow-up on how they potentially could've made that mistake? Did toilets advance technologically or revert during the Middle Ages to the point of being sufficiently different from this one? It seems reasonable that someone should've known better in that city, even if it was just that one antiquarian in the corner. I swear I've seen bathrooms in medieval castles that had the same cut-out in the middle so the design must've stuck around in some form or another for one population or another.
I'm pretty sure that in the middle ages they tended to use containers and cesspits and toilet seats went out of style. Maybe they knew it was a toilet, but since (edit: they thought) it was made of porphyry it was still seen as a great chair. I mean, if you found a toilet made of gold I'm sure you could use it as a seat if you wanted to show it off.
Apparently, the general impressiveness of the chairs (and the fact that they seemed to be made of imperial porphyry) outweighed the awkward cut-out in the seat.
@@toldinstone Fair enough. I can imagine there was at least one guy sniggering in the corner as the Pope sits triumphantly on his pontifical throne, there's some irony somewhere in there.
The version of the story I heard had the inspector declaim, "Testiculos habet, et bene pendentes!" Eunuchs were not supposed to become priests, but some got around the ban by keeping their old testicles preserved (dry) in a pocket or pouch.
I've seen that explanation too. There is some basis for it in Canon Law, which generally barred eunuchs from the priesthood, though 'dispensations' could be given. Supposedly the objection to eunuchs goes back to the early Church, when some Christians, including the theologian Origen, were said to have castrated themselves in order to reduce the temptations of the flesh. But the general view was that this was cheating, and too reminiscent of heathen cults like that of Cybele.
@@DavidB5501 It goes all the way back to Deuteronomy. "Let no man who is wounded in the stones, or who hath his privy member cut off, enter into the congregation of the Lord." That seems to bar them from the Temple as well as the Jewish priesthood. No doubt some clever theological footwork was needed to allow boys to be castrated to sing in mediaeval church choirs, and to continue to do so in the Pope's own Sistine Chapel until a little over 100 years ago.
@@faithlesshound5621 I suspect the ban was interpreted to only bar men who voluntarily chose to be castrated (for whatever reason) and not those who had been castrated before they could give consent. The same used to go for cremation; choosing to be cremated was considered a sign of paganism, but even under the old laws they would never consider St. Maximillian Kolbe a pagan because his remains were cremated at Auschwitz. (Nowadays the Catholic Church accepts cremation as long as it has been chosen for practical reasons and not religious ones. They had to give in, given the astronomical price of burial in a place like Hong Kong, Japan, or South Korea; they couldn't force people to bankrupt themselves to bury Grandma.)
Somewhere I read that temples were effectively banks in ancient times. This video convinces that my use of the word "banking" for that most basic bodily function is most appropriate. "I've got to do some banking; there's pressure on the Pound". (Pound Sterling that is).
Another interesting case of Roman items repurposed as a throne is the Prince's Stone, which is the base of an Ionic column that was flipped upside down and used as a sort of throne in the first part of the coronation of the Duke of Carinthia (which was the border regions of modern Austria, Italy, and Slovenia). In this first part the Duke would conduct it on Slovenian and perform a ritual that played into the idea of him being selected democratically, before going to the cathedral for a German enthronement.
Hey! I have a question for you, or anyone that knows: were the Romans aware of their decline in the late Imperial period? And if so, what did they attribute to their decline? It’s easy for us to look back from centuries of hindsight so I wonder what the people experiencing those times thought
I have a video planned on that topic, so stay tuned! The short answer: the Romans were always worried about decline, but even the most pessimistic were surprised by the unraveling of the imperial order in the fifth century.
@@toldinstone they were very much aware of it, although in a different way, the Roman Empire dit not really disappear, not in a literal sense (Eastern Roman Empire continued to exist), nor spiritually or mentally (the Imperial laws, traditions, language and religion were continued, but there was no Western Emperor). They realised though how Rome's power had dwindled, especially after the city was plundered several times.
Well, Justinian attributed the state of the west in his day(530s)to laziness. He said the western emperors didn't work hard enough, but he is working harder than ever to run the empire. He became "the emperor who never sleeps" because of this rhetoric.
To me, this is a perfect analogy for how Europe deteriorated after the fall of Roman Empire in the West during the Middle Ages. What previously was used as a toilet for Roman Emperors, an every day use object, was now a peak craft, worthy of being a throne for the highest of highest offices in the medieval Europe.
It wasn't the craftsmanship that was why they used it, it was because it was seen as a connection to the Roman Empire, thus a symbol of the Pope's legitimacy in ruling Rome. People didn't fuckin forget how to make fancy objects out of marble lol, have you seen medieval art and architecture?
@@CollinBuckman it's not that they didn't have the technique; it's that they lacked the material. They very often reused porphyry and other precious stones because they were very hard to come by and very expensive. Besides, two things: the Papacy has a succession much more prestigious than the emperors. It derives its authority from God himself (but that's a theological tangent). My point being Roman lineage would have been secondary. Second, they might have understood it was used for defecation, but decided to roll with it because everybody poops. And the pope should be humble as well as majestic. Maybe some of them believed that the majesty outweighed the humiliation.
@@HolyKhaaaaan Very interesting, either way, they definitely weren't idiots who did not know what a toilet was (like a lot of people here in the comments are claiming)
As usual great video, there's something about your writing and your tone that is both informative, and engaging, and the little bits of humor are always appreciated. Would like to know more about how where and the circumstances of the discovery of these, that in the one Napoleon took as well
I mean it is a fun story and all, however I am tired of people assuming medieval people to be stupid - and in this case having no idea, what a toilet looks like. Going by the psalms they sung during this ceremony, it was a ceremony to remind the new Pope to remain humble just right after his enthronenment/coronation. What better way to illustrate that by putting him on a very noble looking but still a very toilet like looking chair? Which would also explain why this chair/throne seems to have not been used in other contexts. Latrinas were a thing also in the medieval ages... Medieval people were not dumb but they sure were also not beating around the bush here. Looking at the comment section: I mean guys... you are historically interested. Just think a bit.
This sort of chair was a thing in the Middle Ages? I thought most people just went out in the open or by riverbanks to flush it away. Surely they didn't have plumbing.
The common peasant wouldn't have access to something like that to go to the bathroom - a random field, woodline or ditch would've been more likely to use. There's been other instances of people from the Middle Ages mistaking items from older periods as something completely different to what they were - poets like Virgil were considered a sorcerer by the twelfth century, Seneca was believed to have talked to Saint Paul, etc. Lots of Roman items were recycled by peasants and nobles not knowing what the items were, such as tablets, urns, and even places like bathhouses, which were turned into churches.
@@devonmolina5200 They had public toilets in medieval towns. At least in England these were pretty common by the 14th ct the latest. Before that records are not as clear, and as they were built out of wood instead of fancy porphyr and also were often placed on bridges (for obvious practical reasons) which were somewhat frequently rebuild, few if any survive other then those build into stone castle walls for private use. Point is: A medieval commoner can very reasonably be expected to have sat on these regularly. Especially if he lived in a town. And don't forget, that a Pope and his cardinals then are even more likely to have seen and used one. A lot of medieval Europe's hygiene practices - especially public bathouses, but it doesn't seem far fetched to say the same of public latrines - fell out of favor during the black death. Again: Medieval people were not stupid. Think about it this way: Does this chair resemble more a toilet of our days, or a latrine as they would have built it in medieval times - obviously the latter. If we now go, "oh it's so obviously a toilet", how much more they? I mean look at the chair. Do you think a medieval person would be like: oh my it has a hole just were you squarele would place your arsehole over it - what a coincidence! geee no idea what that could be useful for.^^ Let me think here sitting on the public latrine while talking to my buddies about that super weird chair the Pope has to sit in while everybody reminds him of remaining humble just right after his coronation, while we flatuate in chorus over the Tiber... I ain't no idea what all this might be about - but did you ever think about it? I bet even His Holiness has to do business like we people.
@@sleekoduck you mean the cremated remains of Augustus? Don't know about that, however I remember shallowly having read something, that the Vandals threw the Ashes of the Emperors of the Mausoleum into the wind, when they sacked Rome. Not quite sure whether the story is contemporary and reliable. Please elaborate.
Thank you for the subtitles once again. I've heard Laterine palace rather than Lateran and thought to myself that even the name sounded like Latrine palace!
Maybe it was a kind of humility ritual, "you take your seat as Pope today but you do so on a Roman toilet", kind of a way to remind new Popes to be humble?
it seems logical to me that it was very much intentional and they were used for the pope to be able to use the bathroom while sitting for a long period without interrupting the proceedings by getting up. Wouldn't have to get up during an official event.
Ahahah this is quite fun, I knew about the porphiry roman toilet at the Louvre and the legend of Joan and the chair for "gender checking' but not about the all connection nice to learn about it, thankyou toldinstone
If you consider that the Pope had to attend long and tedious sessions, you can see that this kind of seat is very useful. And there were plenty of servants to carry the pots et al. I think this throne was used as intended by the inventors, either roman or earlier. Didn't they have similar seats in clay and wood in ancient Egypt?
In the UK we use the slang phrase "Sat on the throne" for, as an uncouth American may say "Taking a dump" or similar. I'm wondering if this is where the phrase originated "On the throne" I mean not the other!
That show "Last Man on Earth" where he owns all these artifacts and works of art from museums, taxis a stealth bomber around town... First on my list would be to use that "throne".
I really admire your channel, but that whole Scottish lord thing is no different than paying someone for the privilege of calling oneself King of the Moon. Of course neither Scotland nor any other country recognize such titles as legitimate, nor does one actually own the land one is "buying" (as with other countries, land sales have to be registered with the government, which these aren't). Of course owning one square meter of land doesn't entitle anyone to an actual peerage, but it's a moot point because one doesn't actually own anything after paying this company. The one square-meter plot one "buys" has probably already been "sold" to multiple people and will continue to be "sold" to other people. And why not? It's not a real land transaction anyway, lol, that's the beauty of the scam. If you want to have a tree planted in Scotland, there are legit charities for doing so. And anyone can style themselves as lord/lady and have it printed on their credit cards with no dubious "permissions" from anyone.
My uncle had one of those certificates in the 1970s declaring him an honorary beefeater. He hung it in the bathroom. I always wondered where it came from. To me, it was worth the 40 Euros just to find out. ~The Lady Sleekoduck 👸
I wasn't gonna comment it, but your comment is a suitable place for it. I've imagined a fiction setting in the future where all plots of land in Scotland were sold to give lordship titles and all the North of England is a big forest now.
@@sleekoduck Yeah, my grandfather got a family coat of arms from one of those services. They always seem to discover that yes, your family was indeed of high enough rank to bear arms back in the old country, but if you get the deluxe package, they'll discover that you're of royal lineage. But so what? He basically paid for a piece of artwork and didn't really pay much heed to any of the sales pitch. And of course the vast majority of people who get these bogus lairdships don't take it seriously either. But this company is really engaging in some shady and deceptive marketing, and the Scottish government is none too pleased about it. Of course, to get a real British peerage, whether Scottish or other, you'd have to live in Scotland at least half the year, live there for a long time, give lavishly to local charities, give lavishly to both political parties, get actively involved with local organizations, and otherwise spend years establishing yourself as someone who can be taken seriously and who's committed to contributing to society. Then and only then, maaaaybe you'll get some sort of minor peerage. The UK especially doesn't hand those out like candy, unlike some places, like Saudi Arabia with its myriad princes.
@@valmarsiglia There isn't even such a thing as a family coat of arms. The deeds to a coat of arms belong to an individual, who has the sole right to use it or give permission for others to use it.
Recalling my courses in Medieval Liturgy during my studies in my MA Liturgy, I believe that one of psalms used in the Enthronement Rite was Psalm 112, whose verse 6 read, *“Suscitans a terra inopem, et de stercore erigens pauperem.* (Raising up the needy from the earth, and lifting up the poor out of the dunghill.)” The use of the toilet was more of a conscious, informed choice when the rite was first made, rather than a silly mistake. It was supposed to remind the pope that he was raised from the lowliness of the dunghill to the heights of power, and he ought not forget.
This is an amazing video. Pontificals! Reminds me of a poem written by Sharon Olds called “The Pope’s Penis”. It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate clapper at the center of a bell. It moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a halo of silver seaweed, the hair swaying in the dark and the heat - and at night while his eyes sleep, it stands up in praise of God.
There have been 21 popes named John, though the last was John XXIII. Wikipedia says this is because of a numbering error. I think it counts the 2 papal thrones.
Wikipedia gives the reasons believed behind the error in counting as “First, antipope John XVI was kept in the numbering sequence instead of being removed. Then, the number XX was skipped because pope John XXI counted John XIV twice.” Nice thought but sadly not true
This might be a sign of humility. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples as an act of humility…. The king of kings washing mans feet…. Now think the pope the highest office sitting on a toilet…. Humility is so engrained in Catholic faith.
It is said Henry III of France was killed while sitting on his pierced chair. The story does not mention an isolated room and we are left to speculate that its usage was not as private as it would be today.
In Poland (which he was king for a brief period, until he saw a future queen he must have to marry that is) unofficial legend state that toilet was unknown cutting through technology in France and he essentially imported them from Poland to Western Europe.
What I heard was that they needed to make sure that the Pope was not a eunuch, since castration was apparently a common enough practice in medieval times, particularly among the court of Byzantine emperors, and to keep choir and opera singers' voices high-pitched.
Considering that popes are generally elderly and infirm, maybe the thrones being toilets is so they can genuinely be used as toilets during the ceremony.
I don't know about the rest of the world but growing up here in Australia you would hear of someone sitting on the "throne" when they were defecating...... I wonder if there is a connection.
Thanks to Established Titles for sponsoring today's video. Go to establishedtitles.com/TOLDINSTONE to get 10% off today.
Of course you're a Lord, you've been carrying that dry British wit and sarcastic irreverence through all your videos!
This is a scam intended to catch rich Americans. Before abolition of the feudal system in Scotland it was possible to buy a feu and with it a feudal barony, but it made you a "Laird." It did not put Lord or Lady in front of your name any more than becoming a "landlord" does.
"Established Titles" is complete bullshit. I'm very disappointed in you as a historian for promoting this nonsense.
@@psammiad There's an English version of this, the (legitimate) sale of the title of "Lord of the Manor" of this or that village or hamlet. Some people think that it puts "Lord" or "Lady" in front of their own name, or the place name: but you can change your name by deed poll at much less expense.
Europe is full of ex-kings, or descendants of kings and pretenders, some of whom have a profitable sideline in selling fantastical titles. Others are not ex-anything, and just make the whole thing up. For example, there is a Grand Duchess of Russia who is in this business, and a Byzantine Emperor. France has three: a King of France, a King of the French and an Emperor, who sometimes grant the same dukedom to different people.
What makes this a grey area is that ruling monarchs used to do the same thing. James VI & I openly sold baronetcies of Nova Scotia to Scottish landowners, and later Baronetcies of Ulster to the English, as did Charles I. Rich men were pressured to stump up the cash.
Men became rich overseas from slavery or opium before coming back to buy an estate and often acquired a title as well. Victorian aristocrats as well as businessmen got rich before mysteriously becoming lords. The grossest example is the Dukes of Westminster, who had the good luck to inherit land in Mayfair before it was built up and well before they became dukes. We don't usually know who they paid, or how much, except for the Prime Minister Lloyd George, who had a price list for titles.
Hi @toldinstone! The name of the ritual that involved this latrine was "Sella Stercoraria" literally meaning "The dung chair." Clearly they knew exactly what the seat was for. The idea was a ritual of humility for a newly elected Pope, after which scripture would be read as he was raised out of the chair, as in "the word of the lord lifted him away from his despicable human condition" or something to that effect.
I think a caveat might be in order.
Some people sometimes ask how an ancient Roman would react if he travelled forward in time. Seeing a king address a crowd from a toilet would probably be seen as an epic flex 🤣
It would more likely be seen as a fact that the plebs is stupid as f.
Would totally laugh his/her butt off lol. Humans have always had humor.
"View 2 replies"
[Click] ....When can we actually view them?
@@MrJm323 I can only view yours.
Probably deleted by the -Roman Censor- I mean algorithm.
Now being able to read more when clicking "read more" is far more annoying.
The one that came closest was probably Lyndon B. Johnson who reportedly called people in to the shiter for meetings and scoldings of aides. I heard he even did an interview while taking a dump, quite the power move ;)
Source (because this is unbelievable as is) among others historian Robert Dallek’s biography "Flawed Giant".
The fact that they had forgotten how a toilet looks like tells us much about medieval Romans.
It shows how much civilization collapsed after the fall of Rome
medieval toilets look almost the same
They still had toilets, but they preferred them to simply have a hole on top and otherwise be fully enclosed (just like modern toilets). If anything, it's the ancient Romans who were weird and unhygienic in this case.
The apertures look like keyholes, and the Papal Seal is two keys... I'm not suggesting... but I'm not not suggesting.
@@alltat The seat is that shape so you can reach through and wipe your freckle with the traditional roman sponge on a stick.
"HE HAS THE PONTIFICALS!" and there was great rejoicing. Hahahaha! =D. That made me laugh out loud.
I can't but imagine that it was half a joke as well as a superstitious peasant belief.
The Laterine palace? More like the Latrine palace!!
Sorry, it had to be done, and I hadn't seen anyone else do it.
I’m living in Italy atm and on a random street corner there is a marble bathtub that was used by ancient romans, and coming from North America it’s so surreal how history can literally be on every corner! I appreciate the videos!
well there is one kind of history and another
I've never been to Europe but, just by traveling around the US you can really get hit with your own mortality. The existential "ancient history" laying around, and the ones that are new to you but, old to the rest. I could only imagine what a trip that be to be surrounded by it. I wonder how that constant reminder affects European humor and so culture.
"The toilets were misinterpreted as ancient thrones". I don't know what kind of home you grew up in, but in my house, we always called it the "Family Throne" 😆
Probably where it came from
Yes. I remember as a kid asking where someone was and the reply was "He's on the throne."
Porcelain throne is the name kid
We never called it the family throne, but the Sunday paper was always properly read on the throne in the reading room 🤣
The throne on which all people are equal.
The use of the Roman "thrones" as thrones by the popes holds in it a certain humorous irony.
Not so ironic; at least a couple of them would have being chuckling as well, if they knew.
Let’s tie this all together…When a man has the balls to lecture whilst sitting on a toilet, he could only be the pope!
If my memory holds there were kings who held court and took care of business on the john.
There are also many stories about LBJ involving toilet activities and dentures. Gross guy.
Roman Empire: Elagabalus wants a luxurious toilet because...why not?
Dark Ages: "Sure is fancy! Must be a throne! Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!"
Imagine being a civilization so culturally and materially advanced, going through such an all-encompassing destruction of your society that even a couple of fancy toilets that managed to survive become thrones to leaders of civilizations that follow you
Really makes you wonder what post apocalyptic civilization will do with bus benches.
They knew it was a toilet. That was the whole point of the ceremony
Imagine being a rich and powerful global organization so out of touch with the common folk that you think seating your leader on a toilet would serve as some demonstration of humility.
Can we get a follow-up on how they potentially could've made that mistake? Did toilets advance technologically or revert during the Middle Ages to the point of being sufficiently different from this one? It seems reasonable that someone should've known better in that city, even if it was just that one antiquarian in the corner. I swear I've seen bathrooms in medieval castles that had the same cut-out in the middle so the design must've stuck around in some form or another for one population or another.
I'm pretty sure that in the middle ages they tended to use containers and cesspits and toilet seats went out of style. Maybe they knew it was a toilet, but since (edit: they thought) it was made of porphyry it was still seen as a great chair. I mean, if you found a toilet made of gold I'm sure you could use it as a seat if you wanted to show it off.
Apparently, the general impressiveness of the chairs (and the fact that they seemed to be made of imperial porphyry) outweighed the awkward cut-out in the seat.
@@toldinstone Fair enough. I can imagine there was at least one guy sniggering in the corner as the Pope sits triumphantly on his pontifical throne, there's some irony somewhere in there.
@@toldinstone hey, a nice seat is a nice seat, all things considered. Who can blame them for being practical?
I want a history of toilet seats video now!
The TV show The Borgias season 1 episode 1 on Netflix showed that strange custom of checking if the new pope was male.
The version of the story I heard had the inspector declaim, "Testiculos habet, et bene pendentes!" Eunuchs were not supposed to become priests, but some got around the ban by keeping their old testicles preserved (dry) in a pocket or pouch.
I've seen that explanation too. There is some basis for it in Canon Law, which generally barred eunuchs from the priesthood, though 'dispensations' could be given. Supposedly the objection to eunuchs goes back to the early Church, when some Christians, including the theologian Origen, were said to have castrated themselves in order to reduce the temptations of the flesh. But the general view was that this was cheating, and too reminiscent of heathen cults like that of Cybele.
@@DavidB5501 It goes all the way back to Deuteronomy. "Let no man who is wounded in the stones, or who hath his privy member cut off, enter into the congregation of the Lord." That seems to bar them from the Temple as well as the Jewish priesthood.
No doubt some clever theological footwork was needed to allow boys to be castrated to sing in mediaeval church choirs, and to continue to do so in the Pope's own Sistine Chapel until a little over 100 years ago.
@@faithlesshound5621 I suspect the ban was interpreted to only bar men who voluntarily chose to be castrated (for whatever reason) and not those who had been castrated before they could give consent.
The same used to go for cremation; choosing to be cremated was considered a sign of paganism, but even under the old laws they would never consider St. Maximillian Kolbe a pagan because his remains were cremated at Auschwitz. (Nowadays the Catholic Church accepts cremation as long as it has been chosen for practical reasons and not religious ones. They had to give in, given the astronomical price of burial in a place like Hong Kong, Japan, or South Korea; they couldn't force people to bankrupt themselves to bury Grandma.)
@@faithlesshound5621 They still do but it is very rare nowadays bc it is voluntary and who would willingly let there nutz be cut.
Can I un-read this?
Somewhere I read that temples were effectively banks in ancient times. This video convinces that my use of the word "banking" for that most basic bodily function is most appropriate. "I've got to do some banking; there's pressure on the Pound". (Pound Sterling that is).
In regards to that last part, I’d also like to give a shout out to my dorm’s toilet. Now that’s a toilet that deserves recognition
So while the pope may not....in the woods, he possibly may through some fancy old marble
"The Pontificles" is the name of my new folk duo appearing in Wicker Park this Friday night at a coffee shop.
Another interesting case of Roman items repurposed as a throne is the Prince's Stone, which is the base of an Ionic column that was flipped upside down and used as a sort of throne in the first part of the coronation of the Duke of Carinthia (which was the border regions of modern Austria, Italy, and Slovenia). In this first part the Duke would conduct it on Slovenian and perform a ritual that played into the idea of him being selected democratically, before going to the cathedral for a German enthronement.
people shoudl knwo which historical region carinthia is
karnthen still exists anyway
Once again, Dr. Ryan knocks it out of the ballpark. I do believe I will resist reading the comments for this video.
So did you resist? LOL!
Keep em coming history man
Hey! I have a question for you, or anyone that knows: were the Romans aware of their decline in the late Imperial period? And if so, what did they attribute to their decline? It’s easy for us to look back from centuries of hindsight so I wonder what the people experiencing those times thought
I have a video planned on that topic, so stay tuned! The short answer: the Romans were always worried about decline, but even the most pessimistic were surprised by the unraveling of the imperial order in the fifth century.
@@toldinstone awesome! So glad to hear that. I’ll be looking out 👀
@@toldinstone they were very much aware of it, although in a different way, the Roman Empire dit not really disappear, not in a literal sense (Eastern Roman Empire continued to exist), nor spiritually or mentally (the Imperial laws, traditions, language and religion were continued, but there was no Western Emperor). They realised though how Rome's power had dwindled, especially after the city was plundered several times.
Well, Justinian attributed the state of the west in his day(530s)to laziness. He said the western emperors didn't work hard enough, but he is working harder than ever to run the empire. He became "the emperor who never sleeps" because of this rhetoric.
Great video!!
To me, this is a perfect analogy for how Europe deteriorated after the fall of Roman Empire in the West during the Middle Ages. What previously was used as a toilet for Roman Emperors, an every day use object, was now a peak craft, worthy of being a throne for the highest of highest offices in the medieval Europe.
It wasn't the craftsmanship that was why they used it, it was because it was seen as a connection to the Roman Empire, thus a symbol of the Pope's legitimacy in ruling Rome. People didn't fuckin forget how to make fancy objects out of marble lol, have you seen medieval art and architecture?
@@CollinBuckman it's not that they didn't have the technique; it's that they lacked the material. They very often reused porphyry and other precious stones because they were very hard to come by and very expensive.
Besides, two things: the Papacy has a succession much more prestigious than the emperors. It derives its authority from God himself (but that's a theological tangent). My point being Roman lineage would have been secondary.
Second, they might have understood it was used for defecation, but decided to roll with it because everybody poops. And the pope should be humble as well as majestic. Maybe some of them believed that the majesty outweighed the humiliation.
@@HolyKhaaaaan Very interesting, either way, they definitely weren't idiots who did not know what a toilet was (like a lot of people here in the comments are claiming)
the throne of charlemagne has a mill game engraved on the side.
Very interesting! Great video.
"Sede Vacante" suddenly takes on a new meaning...
0:25 All jokes aside a chariot toilet is pretty badass.
Anybody who doesn't appreciate that has no taste. lol, almost makes me want a novelty toilet myself!
What a banger of a title
This is probably the most post-apocalyptic thing I've ever learned about the Middle Ages.
As usual great video, there's something about your writing and your tone that is both informative, and engaging, and the little bits of humor are always appreciated. Would like to know more about how where and the circumstances of the discovery of these, that in the one Napoleon took as well
Sure gives new context to the phrase "Holy Shit!"
Reminds me of the feared elementary schools 6th year students health inspection.
sounds like the guys running the chapel of st sylvester had a mind for pranks
I mean it is a fun story and all, however I am tired of people assuming medieval people to be stupid - and in this case having no idea, what a toilet looks like.
Going by the psalms they sung during this ceremony, it was a ceremony to remind the new Pope to remain humble just right after his enthronenment/coronation. What better way to illustrate that by putting him on a very noble looking but still a very toilet like looking chair? Which would also explain why this chair/throne seems to have not been used in other contexts. Latrinas were a thing also in the medieval ages... Medieval people were not dumb but they sure were also not beating around the bush here.
Looking at the comment section: I mean guys... you are historically interested. Just think a bit.
This sort of chair was a thing in the Middle Ages? I thought most people just went out in the open or by riverbanks to flush it away. Surely they didn't have plumbing.
The common peasant wouldn't have access to something like that to go to the bathroom - a random field, woodline or ditch would've been more likely to use. There's been other instances of people from the Middle Ages mistaking items from older periods as something completely different to what they were - poets like Virgil were considered a sorcerer by the twelfth century, Seneca was believed to have talked to Saint Paul, etc. Lots of Roman items were recycled by peasants and nobles not knowing what the items were, such as tablets, urns, and even places like bathhouses, which were turned into churches.
@@devonmolina5200 They had public toilets in medieval towns. At least in England these were pretty common by the 14th ct the latest. Before that records are not as clear, and as they were built out of wood instead of fancy porphyr and also were often placed on bridges (for obvious practical reasons) which were somewhat frequently rebuild, few if any survive other then those build into stone castle walls for private use.
Point is: A medieval commoner can very reasonably be expected to have sat on these regularly. Especially if he lived in a town. And don't forget, that a Pope and his cardinals then are even more likely to have seen and used one.
A lot of medieval Europe's hygiene practices - especially public bathouses, but it doesn't seem far fetched to say the same of public latrines - fell out of favor during the black death. Again: Medieval people were not stupid.
Think about it this way: Does this chair resemble more a toilet of our days, or a latrine as they would have built it in medieval times - obviously the latter. If we now go, "oh it's so obviously a toilet", how much more they? I mean look at the chair. Do you think a medieval person would be like: oh my it has a hole just were you squarele would place your arsehole over it - what a coincidence! geee no idea what that could be useful for.^^ Let me think here sitting on the public latrine while talking to my buddies about that super weird chair the Pope has to sit in while everybody reminds him of remaining humble just right after his coronation, while we flatuate in chorus over the Tiber... I ain't no idea what all this might be about - but did you ever think about it? I bet even His Holiness has to do business like we people.
But this is the same time and place that used Caesar Augustus's creamains and urn as a mop bucket. I don't think they were mental heavyweights.
@@sleekoduck you mean the cremated remains of Augustus? Don't know about that, however I remember shallowly having read something, that the Vandals threw the Ashes of the Emperors of the Mausoleum into the wind, when they sacked Rome. Not quite sure whether the story is contemporary and reliable.
Please elaborate.
Great video. I had a feeling the seat was going to end up being out in "the woods." But I was wrong.
😂😂😂😂😂😂and there was much rejoicing!!
Thank you for the subtitles once again.
I've heard Laterine palace rather than Lateran and thought to myself that even the name sounded like Latrine palace!
Maybe it was a kind of humility ritual, "you take your seat as Pope today but you do so on a Roman toilet", kind of a way to remind new Popes to be humble?
I love the myth of the woman pope and the chair to prevent it in the future. It’s a great story, can’t help but tell it to everyone that listens.😅
Propaganda was already strong back in the day, ROFL
@@lucidd4103 Propaganda is probably as old as human civilization 😆.
it seems logical to me that it was very much intentional and they were used for the pope to be able to use the bathroom while sitting for a long period without interrupting the proceedings by getting up. Wouldn't have to get up during an official event.
I snuck in there and used this when no one was looking. Yes, it is a throne worthy of a pope.
Loving this channel & the way it develops!
enjoy your videos so much I bought your book. enjoy that as well. cheers!
How about the throne allowed the seat to be used when the pope or emperor were holding long sessions?
This is absolutely wild. I love it.
Ahahah this is quite fun, I knew about the porphiry roman toilet at the Louvre and the legend of Joan and the chair for "gender checking' but not about the all connection nice to learn about it, thankyou toldinstone
Long love time stamps i cant loath sponsors
If you consider that the Pope had to attend long and tedious sessions, you can see that this kind of seat is very useful. And there were plenty of servants to carry the pots et al. I think this throne was used as intended by the inventors, either roman or earlier.
Didn't they have similar seats in clay and wood in ancient Egypt?
OMG, That last part gave me such a belly laugh!
Lord Doctor Ryan, thank you for this video blessing!
You misunderstood. He tickled the pope twice. He gave him two test tickles.
I rarely encounter a pun that is so bad it makes me angry while leaving me laughing out loud.
I HOPE YOU'RE PROUD OF YOURSELF!
Well I would imagine an ornate toilet would look so fancy that people did not know it was in fact a toilet.
In the UK we use the slang phrase "Sat on the throne" for, as an uncouth American may say "Taking a dump" or similar. I'm wondering if this is where the phrase originated "On the throne" I mean not the other!
We use that phrase as well. The toilet is referred to colloquially as the throne or the pot here in the United States.
Love the new logo
My new online handle “ Saggy Pontificals “
“He has the balls!”
Crowd of dudes cheer
Good to know that the medieval popes also called toilets their thrones
Lord Dr. Ryan!! 🎩 Sir!!
That show "Last Man on Earth" where he owns all these artifacts and works of art from museums, taxis a stealth bomber around town... First on my list would be to use that "throne".
Should have watched this on mobile while sitting on my own porcelain throne.
Oh Dr Ryan, Sister Nell O'Connor is up in heaven shaking her head.
Marble toilet? That's gotta be a cold sitting. Must've required a fluffy cover.
Now, there's a nice "throne."
0:39 It used to be called the Latrine Palace.
The most impressive thing about this to me is how impressively preserved that toilet is.
Probably, like with many sculptures we recognise, they put some filler in the XIX century.
LOL! This was definitely worth watching for comic relief. Men playing with their toys.
I really admire your channel, but that whole Scottish lord thing is no different than paying someone for the privilege of calling oneself King of the Moon. Of course neither Scotland nor any other country recognize such titles as legitimate, nor does one actually own the land one is "buying" (as with other countries, land sales have to be registered with the government, which these aren't). Of course owning one square meter of land doesn't entitle anyone to an actual peerage, but it's a moot point because one doesn't actually own anything after paying this company. The one square-meter plot one "buys" has probably already been "sold" to multiple people and will continue to be "sold" to other people. And why not? It's not a real land transaction anyway, lol, that's the beauty of the scam. If you want to have a tree planted in Scotland, there are legit charities for doing so. And anyone can style themselves as lord/lady and have it printed on their credit cards with no dubious "permissions" from anyone.
My uncle had one of those certificates in the 1970s declaring him an honorary beefeater. He hung it in the bathroom. I always wondered where it came from. To me, it was worth the 40 Euros just to find out.
~The Lady Sleekoduck 👸
I wasn't gonna comment it, but your comment is a suitable place for it.
I've imagined a fiction setting in the future where all plots of land in Scotland were sold to give lordship titles and all the North of England is a big forest now.
@@sleekoduck Yeah, my grandfather got a family coat of arms from one of those services. They always seem to discover that yes, your family was indeed of high enough rank to bear arms back in the old country, but if you get the deluxe package, they'll discover that you're of royal lineage. But so what? He basically paid for a piece of artwork and didn't really pay much heed to any of the sales pitch. And of course the vast majority of people who get these bogus lairdships don't take it seriously either. But this company is really engaging in some shady and deceptive marketing, and the Scottish government is none too pleased about it.
Of course, to get a real British peerage, whether Scottish or other, you'd have to live in Scotland at least half the year, live there for a long time, give lavishly to local charities, give lavishly to both political parties, get actively involved with local organizations, and otherwise spend years establishing yourself as someone who can be taken seriously and who's committed to contributing to society. Then and only then, maaaaybe you'll get some sort of minor peerage. The UK especially doesn't hand those out like candy, unlike some places, like Saudi Arabia with its myriad princes.
@@valmarsiglia There isn't even such a thing as a family coat of arms. The deeds to a coat of arms belong to an individual, who has the sole right to use it or give permission for others to use it.
@@SentaDuck Yeah, good point.
BONUS!! Tuesday video! Yay!
Recalling my courses in Medieval Liturgy during my studies in my MA Liturgy, I believe that one of psalms used in the Enthronement Rite was Psalm 112, whose verse 6 read, *“Suscitans a terra inopem, et de stercore erigens pauperem.* (Raising up the needy from the earth, and lifting up the poor out of the dunghill.)” The use of the toilet was more of a conscious, informed choice when the rite was first made, rather than a silly mistake. It was supposed to remind the pope that he was raised from the lowliness of the dunghill to the heights of power, and he ought not forget.
This is an amazing video. Pontificals! Reminds me of a poem written by Sharon Olds called “The Pope’s Penis”.
It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate
clapper at the center of a bell.
It moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a
halo of silver seaweed, the hair
swaying in the dark and the heat - and at night
while his eyes sleep, it stands up
in praise of God.
That is so "bad"! lol
Hahahaha, 10/10.
There have been 21 popes named John, though the last was John XXIII. Wikipedia says this is because of a numbering error. I think it counts the 2 papal thrones.
Wikipedia gives the reasons believed behind the error in counting as
“First, antipope John XVI was kept in the numbering sequence instead of being removed. Then, the number XX was skipped because pope John XXI counted John XIV twice.”
Nice thought but sadly not true
No. There was an illegitimate claimant to the papacy who declared himself to be John XXIII way back when.
Lol this was an awesome video!! Funny and very interesting, what a strange world we live in.
The Latrine Palace
This might be a sign of humility. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples as an act of humility…. The king of kings washing mans feet…. Now think the pope the highest office sitting on a toilet…. Humility is so engrained in Catholic faith.
Exactly. Humility AND ancient Roman grandeur in one.
It is said Henry III of France was killed while sitting on his pierced chair. The story does not mention an isolated room and we are left to speculate that its usage was not as private as it would be today.
Most likely of exertion from "pushing" too hard. It's still a moderately common cause of death in the elderly or infirm today.
In Poland (which he was king for a brief period, until he saw a future queen he must have to marry that is) unofficial legend state that toilet was unknown cutting through technology in France and he essentially imported them from Poland to Western Europe.
Is the red marble seat in the 'loo' or the 'Louvre'? ;)
Always good for a grin. I'm referring to your self-made advertisements, of course. The actual subject matter is far too serious for that! 😁🤴
wow, that sponsor title thing is a complete scam lol, I can't believe people actually pay money for that then proudly proclaim they have done so.
The poop chair…the Pope chair. Maybe it was just confused by a misspelling. Lol
This is even more amusing when an Emperor famously proclaimed that "The Pope was found on a dung pile."
Is this why some people refer to their toilets as their “thrones” ? Lol 🚽
Brings new meaning to porcelain throne! 🚽 👑
distinguished careers indeed!
What I heard was that they needed to make sure that the Pope was not a eunuch, since castration was apparently a common enough practice in medieval times, particularly among the court of Byzantine emperors, and to keep choir and opera singers' voices high-pitched.
In Greece we still use the expression " he thinks he caught the pope by his balls" for people who think they are more important than they really are 😄
Pope: It is a day of joy, ring the bells!
Assistant: Ok boss!
Pope: Not THOSE bells you fool!
Great content as always! (And love your new logo!) Imagine how weird this must have looked to a (wealthy) Roman citizen.
I'd imagine the Popes were among the most wealthy Romans of all
Is this perhaps why one of the words/expressions we have for toilet in Portuguese is "throne"?
Well, in the medieval world those in charge tended to crap on the underlings, this just made it convenient XD
"Pontificals": that's what I'm calling mine from now on
When they found out that they were used by emperors, they forgot to ask why emperors used them.
These might be the most expensive toilets ever. Any oligarch or failed US president can buy a toilet out of gold, but nobody can have these.
You mean Prez Joe Brandon already ordered his? Glad he could afford the”inflated” price. 😂😂😂
I can guarantee you this had something to do with humility in the office of Pope while still using an imperial seat. They def knew they were toilets.
Carrying on the mighty lineage of Imperial Rome! We'll use whatever throne we can find!!
Considering that popes are generally elderly and infirm, maybe the thrones being toilets is so they can genuinely be used as toilets during the ceremony.
It kinda reminds me of Borat when he thought you wash your face with water from toilet :D
"One man's toilet is another man's throne." - Unknown.
I don't know about the rest of the world but growing up here in Australia you would hear of someone sitting on the "throne" when they were defecating......
I wonder if there is a connection.
"Poop is poopy because it's pooped with poopiness."
---Albert Einstein
Fact checkers say..."True!"
"Fact checks can be checked because they're checkable by checkers."
---Albert Einstein
This is just the kind of thing that would be incorporated into Warhammer 40k.😂
I wonder if this is where the phrase.. "I'm going to sit on the throne" comes from