'Wonder Woman 1984' Is a Moral Failure
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- Wonder Woman 1984 isn't just a bad movie, it was a moral failure, refusing to engage with the issues that it itself brings up and, as a result, becomes unintentionally offensive and reinforces terrible ideas. So let's discuss how Wonder Woman 1984 failed to be inclusive, meaningful and diverse.
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*I'M VERY UPSET THAT PEOPLE IGNORE THE FACT THAT DIANA & STEVE VIOLATED A BASICALLY A MAN IN COMA*
I don't think anyone is ignoring that fact.
@@nonyabusiness3619 actually i've seen a lot of people pointing it out.
But the moral teaching of the movie is that its not rape when a woman does it, people have a permit to ignore it..
What better way to show female empowerment than to have a woman rape a brainwashed man in a boring generic movie with bad writing.
The sad thing is that it reinforced the reality of "it's not illegal if a powerful person does it". 😖😠
@@elitereptilian200 I'd have to say it is a tad more complicated than that, as well as, tons of people are complaining and experiencing moral outrage. So it's not okay, just because a woman does it. That said, Wonder Woman didn't just have sex with a comatose body. She had sex with an animated body. A body animated by her dead lover.
That does have different implications. I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be considered rape. But it is about consent to the second degree. The person in the body consented; the personhood not currently in-body did not. Stating that the man is brainwashed, comatose, or something else is a bit off the mark. The man who actually owns the body spirit or personhood is displaced. A bit more thought would him dead or in purgatory's waiting room.
He's not a second entity in body, but no longer driving- he has been removed. That DOES NOT make the conversation meaningless though. Absolutely, a conversation on consent should have still been had. Or, at least moral implications could have been better explored. If Diana hadn't given up her wish, Mr. Whoever was essentially something other than dead. He'd been wiped from existence and his body handed off to another soul. But both of the current players, Diana and Steve, KNOW that the body isn't Steves, and hence the moral and ethical quandaries.
What annoys me more about the wishes is that we're supposed to believe that not a single person wished for:
1)world peace
2) that a loved one would survive a potentially fatal illness
3) the homeless to get off the streets
4) the mentally ill would become sane again
5) a date to the prom
TO DIE
Or 6) live forever
7) that things would go back to normal
having the same effect as the actual resolution of the film
humans are selfish and evil so no they didnt wish for world peace. silly goose
I mean it could be just humans trying to look good but whenever you ask anybody what they’re 3 wishes would be at least one of those wishes is going to be a cure for cancer or world peace or end of world hunger or something along those lines
The one consolation of this movie was that Pedro Pascal got to be the “campy” villain and looked like he had a great time doing it❤️
Oh yeah, he absolutely stole the show. In a movie full of flaws and misfires, he was absolutely not one of them. I thoroughly enjoyed every minute he was on screen.
Everyone keeps saying that! :) I don't really know the actor and didn't like this version of the character, but I think the blame for the latter goes to the show Supergirl for cementing the "cool, suave, tech-savvy" Max Lord in my mind lol.
@@amandak.5967 The actor is the Mandalorian! Like, the actual dude, Din Djarren
@@soop5467 Yeah, I heard about that. Never watched the show (not a Star Wars fan). Good for him though, sounds like a cool role :)
@@amandak.5967 yeah he brings so much life to all of his roles!
She's dead inside for 70 years because of Steve's death? Man those two must of shared an exceptional tight-knit life-time bond of love and friendshi- they kissed a couple of times and talked for a few days?
Ooooookie then.......
She has a lifetime of thousands of years. 70 probably isn't as big a deal for her.
@@milou66 That would mean a few days would be similar to a few minutes
Yeah, like the first movie, we got to see their relationship *as it happened* and it was short and bittersweet. Most of the movie was in WWI and we only see her in modern day for like 5 minutes overall. We see her in that future, smiling wistfully and feeling nostalgic and a bit sad. But that's it, you don't see tons of time devoted to how torn up she still is decades later. So it was romantic, yeah, and a bit quick but it felt more real.
Ww84 feels like "Superman 3" to me - and that is a truly damning assessment.
I hate "Silver Age"-campiness with vicious abandon, and I'd pay good money to make sure I'll never have to see it afain in contemporary films.
Ww84 feels like "Superman 3" to me - and that is a truly damning assessment.
I hate "Silver Age"-campiness with vicious abandon, and I'd pay good money to make sure I'll never have to see it again in contemporary films.
If Wonder Woman was a guy and Steve was a woman, the directors would have never released a plot like this
For real tho
I mean if you look at the closest analogue, which for me is Steve Rogers and Peggy, you're completely right: Steve does kind of hold a torch for Peggy, but he has meaningful relationships with other men and flirts with a couple women too. His holding a torch is a pretty shallow aspect of his character, and his time in the MCU explores so much more besides that
@@arthurtaylor725 and he did not have 70 years to cope, he was literally hibernated
@@industrialis excellent point
I'd go further, a male reviewer pointing this out as Jessie did, would be excoriated as a toxic male. So bravo Jessie G.
I imagine the "handsome man" only appears again at Christmas because he was in therapy the previous several months trying to come to terms with how he lost a week of his life and woke up in some bizarre reality next to a guy and his farm with the world going crazy.
LOVE THIS
XD
Make him the antagonist of WW3. Motivation "you ruined my life, you asshole"
As a dude this movie made me feel embarrassed for women as I was watching it. I literally said "REALLY?" out loud when the two main female characters went to dinner and the first conversation you hear is Barbara asking if Diana "had ever been in love". Not only is that weird for two coworkers just getting to know each other to talk about, but the fact that they had to bring up a man as the most important thing to talk about on screen was just sad.... I've had lots of lunches and dinners with coworkers and none of my coworkers have ever asked me anything like that. 😂
Failed the Bechtel test haaaaard
Love isn't really "oh, let's talk about men men men" but okau
@@greygorygaming It was an obvious pretext to bring up Steve Trever.
@@oolong2 Yeah but it's not really a question centered around men, and guys and being dependent on them. The fact women can't talk about guys without someone telling them they'll appear weaker or less empowering is ridiculous.
@@greygorygaming In the context of a story it does make women appear weaker to mainly talk about guys whenever they are alone together. You may not care about the "Bechdel test", but it is a common thing, So then when you're aware of this trope and you see it being used over and over you begin to see how it's often a substitution for proper character development that you don't see with male characters. I've never had a coworker, male or female, suddenly ask me about my love life especially if it's the first time we've gone anywhere together.
If Diana and Barbara had something else between them other than their conversation about a dude, then I probably wouldn't be complaining, but the fact that there isn't much else beyond that and the trope of Barbara being jealous of Diana. It makes for very weak writing and weak characters.
If the lesson of this wonder woman is not to take short cuts (as the first sequence suggests) then I guess Dianna needs to learn to resurrect her boyfriend the old fashioned way. Necromancy.
Honestly, her going on an 80's adventure to get Steve back from the underworld would have been sick
The way you've explained the portrayal of Cheetah makes me even more disappointed in this movie.
Technically Diana's Greek. And is an actual deity. So she's got 'unkillable unaging immortal with unearthly beauty and strength' privilege. Unlike Barbara she's never had to fear men or require their approval. So contrasting how the two deal with unwanted male attention is very misleading, as you pointed out.
@@Jtzkb That is one of multiple possible origin stories for her. But take away the deityhood (she has no worshippers after all) and she's still a playboy, billionaire, entrepreneur...sorry wrong universe...'unkillable unaging immortal with unearthly beauty and strength'.
Agreed, Diana was never in real danger from unwanted male attention, she never had to contemplate wether upsetting a man would put her in harms way, she never had to carefully craft her responses to get out of those situations, of course her way of dealing with the situation is different.
Also she didn't even meet a man or realized they existed until she was a full grown adult. She never had a teenage crush or an awkward phase with boys around
"My wardrobe looks like it was curated by Miss Frizzle" okay but I WANT to have a wardrobe that looks like it was curated by Miss Frizzle
This film made me appreciate Dr. Poison.
She represented a level of real world evil without plunging into lazy motivations symptomatic of female villains. She wasn't involved in petty rivalry- she wasn't seductive, she was quiet meek in many ways- her motivation and function went into her warped scientific pursuits. And the confrontation was a good dissection of human evil- it's not cool, it's not tough, it's not exciting...and crushing it with a tank doesn't really solve the problem of it's impact.
Where is she by the way? She should have come back.
Yeah! She was a decent villain. In the comics, the character is a man, but I'm really happy how they genderswapped her without doing the usual clichés.
@Melody Ackerman same with Batman
@@ahmadhadi177 totally cool to find evil cool in fiction- but a film about a naive outsider confronting real world war one atrocities is also unique and engaging.
An interesting thing to note is that usually Barbra becomes Cheetah in the comics because of a sexist male god who tricks her. In this, she does it herself.
Depends on the version. Cheetah's origins are so convoluted (the youtube channel Casually Comics dives deep into it).
@@amandak.5967 Fair, I was thinking of the recent Rebirth version which is that specifically. It was a curse because the powers came with overwhelming bloodlust for humans, specificly I think.
@@gregorycourtney1532 Ahh, I gotchu :)
I would've totally preferred to see that adapted in the film instead of the 'apex predator wish' origin!
@@amandak.5967 Yeah, when I heard that "apex predetor" line in the trailer, I laughed. It seemed so silly compared to any origin I knew for her.
I had no knowledge of Cheetah even existing before seeing this movie yesterday, so I'm still sort of confused as to...why she became a cheetah. Like, did they mention why she adopted a cat theme and I missed it? At least with Selina Kyle the movies usually show her to be someone who keeps stray cats around.
Fully agree
Intoxicated doesn’t quite cover it. It’s more like having sex with a man while he is in a coma.
@@JoshuaWillis89 and she's the reason why he's in a coma
This is much worse than if he was drunk. He remembers nothing, right? So that's pretty much like she raped a coma patient that eventually woke up. Incredibly disturbing.
While there is the question of if she knew that was how her wish was granted the bigger question is "What did he wish for?"
Unless you can answer that this whole discussion of his agency is moot. You don't know if what happened aligned with his wish..
My biggest takeaway here is the reminder that Birds of Prey still exists and is a better, cooler, and more fun movie in every way. Breakfast Sandwich had better character development than Handsome Guy.
I love love love Birds of Prey, Margot Robbie seems like she's having so much fun and the outfits are to die for ❤️❤️❤️
I have never felt a character's pain more than the moment the sandwich was lost.
Ya people rag on that movie and it’s really not that bad. It’s a serviceable action movie
Breakfast Sandwich!
Am i the only one who wants the She-Hulk movie to be like 80% courtroom drama?
I fell to wanting that from Daredevil near the end, and I'll probably want that from She-Hulk too. But if they handle her ANYWHERE NEAR like the awesome character she is, I'll be happy.
It's a TV show.
@@EternalDensity TV shows are still movies as they're moving pictures so technically still correct which is the best kind of correct :)
I want it to be Marvel's Boston Legal
I want it to be Ace Attorney, but with Marvel characters
Thank you for speaking about her family on Themyscira. I was so annoyed in the first film where she tells Aeres that Steve is essentially the only reason she knows love - bruh your Aunt just died for you like a week ago! I was so disappointed the sequel doubled down on her being so Steve-crazy to the point she ignores her very loving family.
That's really sad too in the context of how in media relationships with men are always depicted as way more emotionally significant to characters' development and psyche
Amatonormativity at its finest
Not to mention the island of women who raised her for 1 thousand years
Ms. Frizzle was a fashionista. Aren't no shame in looking like her.
I mean, she had an outfit for every subject. Woman was prepared!
Ms. Frizzle is literally my idol, I want to be a teacher like her and have her clothes too. 😄😄 (I actually am a teacher, she legit is one of my role models.)
Preach the truth
She prepared her notes well too - remembering to write down the sentence: "Arnold, are you listening?"
yep, gotta love her tematic dresses, and also the cut of said dresses, and the classes AND she had a lizard :3 so... that sounds like a good role model and a fashion icon
Yeah, hated that they turned WW into a status quo defender.
Holy crap, this. Yes. It’s so bad. This movie was basically a character assassination 😂😫
Truth be told, it's really more of a return to form.
I can see Diana's loneliness to a certain extent because 70 years isn't long to an immortal but they overdid it.
I feel like Steven Universe did the "coping after loss as an immortal" thing better. Like, how can Pearl-someone who lost the person she was literally made of for-move on quicker than an immortal woman who knew a guy for what I imagine is just a short fragment of her life? I don't know if it's necessarily fair to compare them, but still...
@@TuesdaysArt true, the big diference there is that Pearl spend YEARS fighting with Rose and she was basically the reason she was created, they had a really strong bond.
She knew Steve for all but maybe a week or 2? And then carried a flame for that long? Doesn't make sense.
Eh, immortal or not they still experience every moment, and that’s a long ass time
@@yoonmikim5663
You can fall in love pretty quickly so I'm fine with that aspect.
I live in Ireland, and learned about Irish history in school. I haven't watched the movie, but he Irish deportation wish made me cringe. The film is set in 1984, when the Troubles were becoming really, really bad. The Troubles were a period of massive conflict between two groups (broadly, its complicated) in Northern Ireland, which belongs still to the UK. The history of why the Troubles came about is really complicated, and a very sore topic even today. A lot of both Irish and British people got hurt and died during the Troubles. To have that English woman say that is absolutely in poor taste. I don't know if the production team was just using a 'English people hate the Irish' stereotype, or if they had ay knowledge of the Troubles, but that was not ok for the movie to just shove like that.
I was coming to say something similar. That scene hits differently If you're old enough to remember Irish people being rounded up by British police, and often put in prison on trumped-up charges. The Birmingham Six and Guildford Four were convicted of bombings they didn't do in 1975, 2 years before I was born. The Maguire Seven were sent to prison for the same bombings the British establishment convicted the Guildford Four of the following year. I was 12 when the Guildford Four got out and 14 when the Birmingham Six and the surviving members of the Maguire Seven were released. I very distinctly remember them being talked about on TV and radio, and posters and graffiti up across Dublin calling for their release. Every last one of them was innocent, and the prosecution knew this. An IRA group arrested following a London bombing and siege of their hideout in 1977 confessed to the crimes (allegedly on the instruction of the Army Council to confess), but they were not charged with them at their trial.
The whole ordeal meant that Gerry Conlon, the most famous of the Guildford Four had incredible trouble putting his life back together, and he even attempted suicide. His father Giuseppe - one of the Maguire Seven - died in prison.
Even if Jenkins was trying to say something about terrorism and the Troubles with that bit, it seems so incredibly tone deaf that it makes The High Ground in TNG seem nuanced.
I'm Irish and I agree; that bit was just cringing and completely unnecessary.
It seems like a really weird choice to have an English woman wish Irish people away. I have literally never heard of that happening. The English have too much colonial guilt for someone to wish that the Irish would go back where they come from. It would be more realistic to have(one of) the Irish to wish the British would go back where they come from because in N.Ireland the republican community was often under privileged compared to the unionist community.
you're mad that the movie depicts racism as destructive? The lady almost dies as a consequence.
@@TwoForFlinchin1 I'm a bit late, but we're mad because this specific part of the movie is essentially tearing at a wound that hasn't healed and is still bleeding quite badly.
To those of us with families still actively suffering as a direct result of the Troubles (there are lots of us, and people *still* get themselves killed over this) it's like an unnecessary and unexpected punch in the gut.
I'd rather not deal with that in my entertainment, thank you
The bits about male rape victims hit me. I'm enby but I'm AMAB and masc presenting and only admitted to myself that I'm enby at 32 years old, so I guess I thought I was male most of my life so far.
I've been thinking a lot about the times I was raped going from the guy who did when I was 6 to the woman who did several times for years until I was 32 and how it isn't taken seriously, I was told to man-up, be happy I'm having sex, to do something about it though I'd have been vilified if I had, like when she tried to stab me but I got arrested for defending myself...
As for the rest of the video, it tells me that this is a film I probably won't like for the many reasons discussed and the wasted potential.
I’m so very sorry. I hope you’re doing better now and she is in the wind.
I hope you will be able to get justice or at least calm eventually.
I completely agree with you. There is a ridiculous and toxic double standard for men and women regarding rape/sexual assault/harassment. Men are seen as lucky for having sex or weak for "letting a woman do that". This is such bullshit because people would never blame the woman but for some reason consistently blame the men for what they suffer and survive through. Im sorry you went through those things. You did absolutely nothing wrong and things like this anger me so much. Sorry for ranting. This movie just disturbed me because of this plot line and it stayed with me after I watched it. Just awful
@@caitlinkershaw8006 I agree with you said but people blame the woman too...? It's just that the treatment both genders get is different. As you said, when a guy is raped by a woman other guys or other ppl will them he is lucky or that he ''could've stopped it any moment''. The data around male abuse survivors is often unprecise because a few guys report, but it's generally recognized that most sexual abuses against men are made by other men. In this case the male victim may feel ashamed or scared to report or tell his friends about it because they will be seen as gay or perverted.
Both genders need to get assistance and help from others, both genders get judged and blamed. I don't see why you should say ''people would never blame the woman'' when people do this too. It's not a suffering competition, everyone's pain needs to be adressed.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. It's not okay, it's not a joke, and you deserve so much better. I hope you're getting the support you need and I'm proud you're claiming and exploring your enby identity.
I agree with everything, but I wouldn't let Patty Jenkins off the hook so easily, from all the coverage I've seen it shows that she had almost complete control of this movie. For example, even with the studio notes, that double opening was still kept, her ending having almost no action, like she said was her plans for the first WW, and the body swap was her attempt to reference another 80ish movie, Heaven Can Wait. That last one she even recently doubled down on twitter, disregarding the problems people had with it and making light of it.
WHY DO THAT?!
A movie reference, FOR WHAT?!
SOOOOOO dumb. The magic stone is such a wild card, you could have easily had Steve be formed out of a pile of blankets or toilet paper and I woulda taken that over the creepy body robbin'
@@ShesquatchPiney Or he could have been given the classic Wonder Woman treatment and had his new body form out of clay. That could have been great! But no, body snatching is what they went with.
@Tympest Books that would have been so dope tho
Heaven can wait is about a guy who is put into the body of a man that was already dead. He was no longer using the body. It was still weird but at least he wasn't robbing the guy of his time in his body or forcing him to live with the consequences of someone else's actions.
I actually thought there was something between Diana and Barbara during the brunch, but then Barbara asked about love, and Diana checked out and went to Steve-land, and it all fell apart.
Barbara was for sure crushing while telling herself she just wanted to be Diana.
You people love everyone to be gay dont u
@@dominicpersaud1155 yes
@@lunalite8524 Well good luck, the human race will just die out
@@dominicpersaud1155 Not really, we can impregnate people with SCIENCE! Where have you been all this time? If heterosexual people ceased to exist for some reason we would still be able to reproduce as a species dude.
I think I agree on almost everything, but I wanted to point out another detail, about "the antagonists". Both of the are in a situation of lack of power (social, political, economical) and the problem came from them trying to get it but not being worthy, and not from the system that created these conditions.
As pointed out, the male antagonist is a poor man who do bad thing try to become rich (because, of corse, "REAL rich people know how to make the worlda better place"). At the same time, the female antagonist want to be like Wander Woman, but once she get as powerful as her, she became a villan. "Nono, a GOOD woman just doesn't care about misogyny, you shouldn't get mad". And remember, Diana is the daughter of a god, she was born in a condition of power, she's born in a privileged situation. So even with Cheeta, the movie is telling us to "stay at our place".
These are today's version of the old medieval (or even more ancien) myth of the "true king" and the "rightfull heir". You know, "the problem is not the system or society, it's that queer lion, he's not a good king, put the true king on the trone and the cyrcle of life will work again!"
This myth comes back frequently. I can recognise Arslan, the Expanse a little bit, and plenty of superhero (when you think to it, men who can destroy the world are totally left unchecked), and regency stories (Broadchurch Abbey for example).
People were worried the first movie was gonna suck after being in development hell forever but we didn't see coming that the sequel would actually be the one that betrays the character.
I was yelling at the screen the entire movie frustrated about the body snatching not being a moral dilemma. Wonder Woman, who is shown saving people in the most cartoony way possible in the beginning of the movie, suddenly no longer gives a shit about every day people as this man is in a walking coma and actively in mortal danger as Chris Pine drives his body around like it's a go-kart. Not once does Diana or Chris in all of the dangerous situations they get into are they like, "you have to stay, you're going to get HANDSOME MAN hurt".
wow i am so glad i didn't watch this movie, i'm egyptian and now i'm pissed.
@futilethewinds To be fair, that's what the POTUS asked for, too.
From what I've read he was demanding a land that doesn't even historically exist. It was from the Shazam! lore.
@@milou66 Actually POTUS got those bombs and sold them to the Saudi prince to exterminate the infidels/victims of religious persecution in Yemen, then POTUS handed the $20B in profits to Israel so they could be insured the Palestinians would never uprise again.
@@B.B.Digital_Forest Well, it was a wish, more than a demand. He didn't expect it to come true. The country is Bialya, a fictional monarchy in DC comics, like Wakanda or Latveria in Marvel. What he wished for was that he could have a sovereign land for just his people, protected from the outside. But because of the monkey paw situation, it backfired and everyone wanted him dead because of the misery the new wall created.
TRIBBLE WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE
So I was thinking about how to make WW84 a better movie.
#1. Have Diana start a relationship with Barbara. They are already flirting at dinner, so carry that out. Then have Barbara loose her humanity after she wishes to become more like Diana. Then this starts to drive a wedge in their new relationship. Have Barbara cheat on Diana with Maxwell Lord. Have Diana and Barbara fight over that and over doing the right thing, to stop Lord, but have Diana struggle with fighting because is she powerless. Have Diana realize that Barbara is not herself and she wants to help get her Barbara back. Then have Barbara become Cheetah.
Then in the final fight with Cheetah have Diana struggling with fighting because she really cares about Barbara, but make her believe that the only way for her to stop Cheetah is for her to kill the second person whom she has ever loved. After she defeats Cheetah have her carry the limp body out of the water and cry over loosing Barbara before she has to face Lord. Then in the end credits show Cheetah wake up and running away to have to face Diana in the future.
#2. Actually have Diana loose her powers... None of theis halfway power loss.
#3. Let her have already created or have her create the Invisible Jet in the opening scene. And she should be the one flying it, not a dead World War 1 pilot that has never seen a jet before. She had many years to learn how to fly and maybe the jet is not her first invisible plane. But, do not have her Superman fly.
#4. Have Steve come back in his own body as Diana's wish, but after she has started her relationship with Barbara. Have her conflicted about her relationships. But, not wanting to give up Steve because she feels like she failed him.
#5. Show there being consequences to the actions of the events of the movie. Since people have memories of the events otherwise people should not have any memory of the events.
#6. Don't have Lord run off to find his son, instead have his son visit him in prison.
#7. Move to opening scene to the end of the 2nd act, to where Diana has to make the decision to finally give up on having Steve. Have it show that she can't cheat to get something she wants. Because where it is currently in the beginning of the movie breaks it apart from the message it is needing to say.
#8. Drop the idea of every guy being a Sexist Misogynistic Pig. A few spread out here and there is one thing, but every guy but Steve is a bit much.
I might make additions to this later, but this is a start to how I would make a better Wonder Woman 84 movie.
OMG this is what I want.
#6 I like Lord reaching out, so I'm not sure you frame it if his son visits him in prison. Maybe if Lord invites him.
#7 I like a Themyscira scene at the start, but maybe cut out before the climax of the race, and revisit the moral in the middle. I do like the idea of being reminded more directly.
make this into a movie!!
@@goddess131 I wish they would let me.
I support all of this. Would have been so much better.
(Although I am okay with her learning how to fly like Superman, but I do see how it would be kind of superfluous for her to both have a plane and the ability to fly without one.)
@@LazyCharms this only took me about 15 minutes to do, just think what someone with a few days or weeks could do. As it is I feel like the script for the movie we got was written by taking a Wonder Woman Mad-libs book and filling in random words.
I think Steve being in the person's body was the Monkey Paw consequence for Diana at some point of the script, but they deemed it too dark....so they completely ignored it!
Honestly I think this could have a great movie if WW had been portrayed as happy, queer and polyamorous, with complicated feelings about her first lover Steve.
YES! Additionally: YES!
Considering the author was in a polyamourous relation with two women it would only be fair
@Lowkey Loki Wonder Woman's been established as bi in the comics more than once and is generally one of the more emotionally level heroes in DC comics, about the only thing that would change in op's idea would be establishing her as polyamorous. It's not like her characterization would change.
@Lowkey Loki And those arcs often, baring elseworlds or what if stories, get referenced or called back later. Aspects of those stories often come from baked in aspects of the characters.
I'm also more than a little concerned that you jump from Wonder Woman having been characterized as bi to characters occasionally being evil. Bit weird that.
And the point of Wonder Woman isn't that she isn't bogged down with normal human trivial shit. She's consistently characterized by her connections to others, like most other super heroes, and has been given human background characters to connect with from the start. And she's had on and off romances with other characters from the start, from Steve Trevor to Superman, so saying she doesn't do romance would be flatly false. Add into that that she has had references to female lovers in the past or references to that having been an option, in mainstream comics yes, we can say that she has been characterized as being bi. Plus, a character's sexual orientation does nothing to change their character, just the field of who the writers might set them up with.
I mean, my thoughts always
One of the things that bothers me when reading reviews is people who really enjoy the film just gloss over the body swap as if it's not completely horrific.
For me, what left the worst taste in my mouth is the way that they treated normal people. The message is "don't cheat to get ahead" but the hero of the story was born with gifts that normal people would only get through supernatural ways. The film comes off in the same vein as people who say they're "self-made millionaires" when their parents are already wealthy, they were given every advantage in life, and they already had massive connections that the vast majority of us could never even hope to make. Then, at the end of the film, she asks everybody to give up their wishes. Most people probably just wished for normal things -- loved ones to be alive again, not to have to worry about money, or to be rid of a debilitating condition -- and Wonder Woman makes this inference about learning to be happy with what you have in life. It's a terrible message, and just speaks to how poorly thought out this movie was. What a disappointment, especially after how much I freaking loved the first film, and even Birds of Prey. Here's hoping for a brighter future for the DCCU
Almost two years later, I still don't understand how Patty Jenkins, who got it so right and did such a phenomenal job with the first Wonder Woman movie, failed so hard with 1984.
Patty didn't write or produce the first WW. She just directed it. WW84, whe wrote, produced, *and* directed. I can see the issue.
It really bothered me how so much of her identity was tied up in her boyfriend, which I'm sure you'll touch on in the video. We get it, she's "a feminist icon who doesn't hate men." Stop beating us over the head with it, Hollywood writers. Like, girl move on and live your life! (Edited to add: Thank you for talking about this!!!)
I was surprised by that street cafe scene. How can this woman be so isolated yet suppose to be so involved and caring about the world. Watching the whole movie, I believe that she has no relationships, romantic or otherwise, in this world. Would it have been so hard to show here on a very enjoyable date, but not closing the deal, because she's kinda holding out for that same connection? Even at the end with handsome man, she could have asked him out for a cup of coffee. Something to move her forward. But, nope!
Right! She's an AMAZON for #@$&! sake! I also have been having a very hard time with the retcons in the comics where they made Zeus her father. They completely changed her origin and they've also retconned the emphasis on the Amazons being an extremely advanced culture with both science and magic. I have way too much to say on this ugh
They just should have done the Bana if they wanted to emphasize that she wasn’t a man hater, but like her friendship with Supes and Bats does that really well (oops, Snyder-verse made that not a thing)
I kinda blame Whedon and/or Snyder for this as in JL she keeps bringing up Steve for some goddamn reason
That was her first true love! Call me crazy, but it took me more than a minute to get over my first love. Most of us don't have a snap-back heart when it comes to love...
I cannot imagine comic book Diana letting a man harass her or even imply that she owes him something. She would be pissed.
Or letting it happen to friend! Is so weird that she "saves" Barbara from that creep but doesn't stay with her afterwards to make sure she was alright! She was clearly scared and needed support!!!
Thank you for the "shout out" to men victims of r**e and the stigma that comes with it. I hate the treatment this subject gets in most cases, in movies and whatnot.
I can't believe they made a whole movie around "cheating to win isn't right"...and not...you know...1984
Also...what’s with the weird high heel obsession? I swear it’s someone’s fetish behind the scenes.
Male gaze
I hate how much heels are shown on screen and media, mostly the height that bugs me.
I was actually telling my girls, over the weekend, that Britney Spears used to be such a great dancer, then for some reason it became popular for singer/dancers to dance in really high Qheels and I'm pretty sure that's what aided in her VMA not super great dancing skills.
She used to wear flats when dancing, now it's heels. It's so unsafe and will definitely hurt your body continuously doing it. Even Victoria Beckham stopped wearing heels so much and she was known for it! I hope we can go back to smaller heels or flats on women.
It's weird, but I suppose given the publication history of Wonder Woman we should be grateful if that's the *only* fetish being displayed.
Aristocratic men a few hundred years ago: high heeled silence
I found after the opening action scenes that this movie was baffling at every turn. Why was it set in the 80s? Why was Diana still pining after a guy she knew for like a week decades prior? Why did she have access to a plane hangar but had to steal a jet? Why did Steve have to be beamed into some random guy's body instead of just showing up? Why did Barbara get two wishes? Why is it so easy to just walk into the white house? Why was the dialogue so cheesy? The confusion never ceased.
Also, why did the random Trump stand-in warrant saving over Barbara? Why even have him, when the setup/confict between WW and Barbara (an established WW villain) was so promising (and more interesting)?
"Why is it so easy to just walk into the white house?" lol, it's pretty easy aparantly.
@@domoarigato3000 yeah... my comment didn't age well over the course of two days.
@@SuperPao Not just now, really; if you do some digging, there's multiple reports you can find of random idiots scaling the White House fence, or of children just wandering off during White House tours with no one finding where they are for hours. Our bloated defense budget is _clearly_ not going towards domestic security, in any respect.
The biggest moral failiure is that Wonder Woman rapes a guy who has no control over his own mind or body. And movie pretends it's nothing wrong with that. Sick!
I feel like the whole "Why is Diana still depressed about Steve" thing could have been solved if the movie was set not 70 years later, but 10 or 15, at most 20. It'd probably still be questionable, but she wouldn't have gone an entire humans lifetime still heavily grieving.
Why did the movie have to be set in 1984?
The end of the movie looked like a Hallmark Christmas film. I wished the movie had instead been Diana Prince had to save Lynda Carter's bakery from real-estate developers while simultaneously discovering the Christmas spirit.
Wonder Woman made by a bi polyamorous thruple and now she's totally hung up on a SINGLE person.
I've not seen this video yet but I already agree with the title. I love Wonder Woman. I'm a gay cis male who would dress as Wonder Woman as a child. I really enjoyed the first film but this sequel takes Diana and Steve and turns them into sex offenders. They use another man's body for their own selfish sexual satisfaction without any hesitation, concern, guilt, remorse - and then they constantly put that body in danger, even though they don't know the guy's name, if he's still around, is he trapped - etc. It bothered me through entire film. The movie itself doesn't care about this guy even though they go out of their way to show that he's alive at the end of the movie. I thought it was gross. And then beyond that, the movie just doesn't make much sense with the movie bending over backwards to inform us that Max can only grant one wish...before he gives Minerva a second one. I hate when movies don't play by their own rules. The score, the cinematography, the acting, sets and all of that are great but when you pay attention to it it's really bad. I also dislike films that punish you for paying attention to what they're saying and doing. I had high hopes for this movie and now I feel betrayed.
men do that shit all the time in movies and tv shows why is she being single out when its a Hollywood theme for the longest for men to be at their sexual peak to conquer over a womens sexuality in the bedroom or whatever sexual scene the set up with no consequences in sight
@@angeluvsvid I don't see a lot of examples in current films in which a man and a woman use the body of another man without that man's consent to pleasure themselves so I don't understand your argument. Also, WW and Steve don't even try to find out who that man is. Does he have family? Does he have a girlfriend or boyfriend? Does he have people that rely on him? Not only do they use his body for their sexy time, they constantly put that body in mortal danger with no thought of that man's safety. Can you give me even one example of this happening in any recent film? How about in an older film? Can you give me an example of this happening in which the audience wasn't upset by it? I don't think you can because this is not something that happens in film very often because the writing is horrible. Also, if you can find an example, were the characters doing the raping meant to be heroes that children look up to? Because I've never seen anything like that before.
But lets just say that the situation doesn't matter. If we remove the mystical element of the film and say that WW just flat out raped a man or that Steve Trevor rapes a man (or woman) on screen in this movie without the mystical element to muddy the waters. You're saying that because historically, in film, there are times when men have overpowered women onscreen that this makes it okay for the characters in this film to do so? That it's okay for them to rape a guy? And people should just give them a pass because men have raped without consequence in other films? I still don't agree. Rape should never be okay or glorified. And when the argument about a WW movie is that she should be allowed to rape because men have done so in the past then it's very clear that the movie in question is not a good Wonder Woman film because that's a gross misrepresentation of the characters I grew up loving.
@@jasonwright8832 theres plenty of Hollywood movies Heaven can wait is one and Xena and Callista switch bodies and Aries did her in Xena body she didnt trip over it like a wuss like these guys acting but let a man do it and its "oh freakin aye high five dude for baggin that chick " smh
@@jasonwright8832 please stop trying to hop on a bandwagon with these hypocrites who paint this narrative like she was reaching to rape some guy she waited centuries just for Steve if you gonna punish someone punish the billions of male actors who rape women in real life stop carrying on like this when you know theres real women and girls and boys in Hollywood getting raped and sold and dont nobody raise an hand or voice to stop them . these men in these comments are acting fake and just trying to troll the movie probably have porn links already bookmarked on their computer downloaded
@@angeluvsvid The examples you're attempting to use here don't actually apply to this situation - which is again, why people are upset.
In "Heaven Can Wait" the man in question is DEAD so there aren't any of the moral questions that are raised in this movie - because the guy here is clearly shown to be alive at the end of the film. People aren't upset that WW & Steve used someone else's body - they're upset because the man was alive and there was no consideration for how he felt about what was being done to or with his body.
In the Xena story ("Intimate Stranger", Season 2, Episode 7) people were upset with what happened but they weren't shocked because Aires and Callisto are VILLAINS. We expect villains to do horrible things. We do not expect heroes to rape a guy, let alone to do so and then show absolutely no remorse or guilt, because that's evil.
And for the record, I've never high fived a guy for raping anyone. And I don't believe that anyone should be let off the hook for raping someone. Not men. Not women. Not Diana. Not Steve. Not anybody.
This isn't me hopping on anyone's bandwagon. These are my honest reactions to the film in question. It might shock you to realize that I came to all of these conclusions on my own.
I'm not sure what makes you think that I personally am able to punish people that rape, who I don't know and probably never will. We're talking about a film. You have your viewpoint and I have mine. But for some reason mine is less valid because I'm concerned with how my heroes are being presented? And I should "stop carrying on" about this? Really?
Also, I don't understand who you think I'm punishing by expressing my reactions to the film. Who exactly am I punishing? I don't really understand your argument here but your responses are so poorly written that they're sometimes hard to follow.
But you're kind of right. I mean, I'm done having this conversation with you. You're arguing that it's okay for our heroes on film to be morally bankrupt. You're arguing that Steve and Diana deserve a pass for using and abusing someone's life for their own pleasure which is disgusting. And you're telling people that don't agree with you that they should stop. And you're doing all of this in a poorly written, poorly argued fashion. And I'm done. If you could just do me the courtesy of never messaging me again, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.
If you juxtopose her doing a sad dinner alone with her conversation with Handsome Man, the film implies that the character flaw she had to overcome was "being unapproachable". Yikes
You know what would’ve been cool: Cheetah ending up as the romantic interest to replace Steve. The two constantly going out for coffee or lunch breaks. Diana yearning for back when she was with Steve and Cheetah feeling powerless because of being harassed at work and alone (maybe because she just transferred to Diana’s workplace?) except for her relationship with Diana. Instead of wishing for Steve back, have Diana wish for a part of her past to be part of the present, which brings back Steve. No body swap. No racist wish scenes. Just Diana and Steve together again to the point where she neglects Cheetah. Wanting to feel good enough to be in Diana’s life again Cheetah wishes to be like Diana. Then after that doesn’t get her attention. Instead it gets the attention of men in the office and becomes Cheetah after starting to feel alone and helpless without Diana still reminiscing with Steve and realizing she’s loosing her powers. Cheetah attacks them. Finally this gets Diana to realize that Cheetah (after many scenes of developing their long time relationship) is the person that she has in the present. The one that shows Diana she doesn’t need to hold onto the past or Steve to be happy in the present and if she doesn’t act she’ll loose Cheetah. And Cheetah would realize that she isn’t worthless and matters to Diana. She isn’t like Diana and doesn’t need to live up to her to be valued as a person. Diana gives up Steve so she can have the strength to go against Cheetah and save her from her harmful wish, telling her that she won’t be worthless or alone, she’ll have Diana because she’s worth the world to her and wants to be with her. Cheetah renounces her wish and holds Diana. At work Diana makes sure Cheetah is no longer harassed and Cheetah grows even closer to Diana. The end is the two going on a walk, a plane goes by and Diana looks up then at Cheetah taking hold of her hand and walking away together.
That's a beautiful rewrite of the film! It makes my heart melt 🥺♥️
So, I watched this without seeing any of the commercials. When the opening credits showed "Chris Pine" I was super confused, like, ain't he dead? Then they had Diana being all mopey and I was like "well this is a bit insulting to her character". Then the wishing stone showed up and I was like "oh no. I sense a disturbance in the force". THEN Steve shows up, effectively distracting her from a very important mission at the same time that the other named female character was being distracted by a man and I was like, "Wine. I need wine. This is not a movie I can watch sober without becoming very upset." Just, who looked at this idea and was like, "yes, this is empowering!" I was so disappointed that everything was about her first crush and not the fact that she, you know, lost her home!
"Diana wanting Steve is framed as her cheating" OH! Is that what they were trying to get across? I did not get that at all. I was honestly pretty confused by how the opening flashback tied into anything. As cool as that sequence was, it felt completely disconnected from the rest of the film. I also think they had kid Diana a little too young. I had a really hard time buying that an 8-year-old could meaningfully compete against grown women, but I'm not a huge DC fan, so this might be a character thing that I just didn't know.
I was also very upset by her relationship with Barbra. I was excited for girl power team up time and thought Barbara was going to be her plucky, "girl in the chair" buddy or something. (Can you tell I know zip about the comics?)
Just, I agree with everything you said here. This film was a disappointing mess and I don't get how anyone thought it was a good idea.
Yeah! I caught Shad's video on this.
We have a huge double standard in the area of rape and sexual assault.
Speaking of Shad’s vid...somehow that one wasn’t copyright striked. 🤔
@@sophiejones7727 maybe they're applying the, no such thing as bad publicity strategy.
Then again
The Twilight books/Movies had a werewolf guy IN DESTINED LOVE WITH A GIRL THAT WASN’T EVEN CONCEIVED YET!
And every one seemed okay with that... in-universe, I mean
Although, Shad's rant about "muh feminism" was kind of... disconcerting.
@@gfox-ck5xx Agreed. I love Shad's dives into medieval life, weaponry, and how well fantasy people would fight, but this set off alarms.
Shad went on this rant and set himself in opposition to people who hadn't spoken and hadn't endorsed this movie. Those people tended to be on holiday in general with those that tend to regularly discussion topics like these were collecting themselves for the kind of discussions he wanted, just later on.
Yet he went on to place the blame not on those that made the film but everyone around them without any real consideration. It was disappointing at best and disturbing at worst.
I am raising 3 boys and I have been intentional about teaching them about consent. For example, I ask them if I can give them a hug or kiss. They have the choice to say yes or no, and I respect that choice. And in turn I also teach them that I expect the same questions to me and respect for my choices. This is how we can teach children healthy bodily autonomy from a very young age. I am also sad that this film missed this opportunity to reinforce the consent of "Handsome Man"
(not finished the video yet) It would have been so easy to just show a few scenes of Diana at least TRYING to date other people and having no headway because she keeps holding everybody to the standard that Steve set and dropping them when they show the smallest failing to live up to him. Still not great, but it would actually SHOW us how much Diana has been caught up on Steve without making her entire life about him alone.
I haven’t read any of the comics, I just don’t have access to them, so I didn’t have any expectations about the characters. And I’m very excited to hear your thoughts on what they did to Diana. However, I feel in my heart that they did Dr Minerva so dirty. She could have been such a good villain. Let women be smart damn it. She was an expert in her field! She could have been clever and quick and actually evil and so many good things. Her name is Dr Minerva for goodness sake! I felt like we could have had another Loki on our hands with Cheetah. I was very let down
They absolutely did, Cheetah is WW's main nemesis along with Veronica Cale who they could easily have used instead of Lord.
I was fine with the corruption but it seemed so fast and without real pay off. The wishing stone does not work for how she got her powers because and lets make this 100% clear she never recanted her wish. Lord reversed his wish and others renounced theirs but Cheetah got her power and new form from other people wishing on Lord and him using their (Payment) to boost her up. Listen to what he says when he is first on television and he is saying "I take from you your..." he mentions a HER because he is charging up Cheetah. So when those people renounce their wish Cheetah loses that power and form.
But as Barbara she still has powers comparable to WW because that was HER wish and we never see it recanted on screen (That I recall)
you have access to the interact therefore you have access to everything including BOOKS. #read
@@Ailieorz Oh yeah, I'd love to see more woman villains on the big screen! I remember the manipulative/smart Veronica Cale from Wonder Woman: Bloodlines. It would've been great to see her character on live action. No offense towards Pascal who did a great job, but Max Lord has been adapted to live action twice now already. There are other great DC characters who could shine, but DC does like recycling the same ones...
TW: Rape. Also, spoilers for Game of Thrones.
The whole "Diana having sex with Steve in a non-consenting man's body" thing kind of reminds me of a moment in Game of Thrones. Jaime and Cersei (who are brother and sister) have a sex scene pretty much immediately following the funeral of their son, Joffrey. In fact, they do it right next to Joffrey's body. I heard this was a consensual scene in the book (haven't read them), but in the show, Cersei repeatedly tells Jaime "no", "it's not right", etc. She is clearly upset and physically resisting him. He ignores her obvious non-consent and has sex with her anyway. And somehow, the directors of the show were shocked - SHOCKED! - that the audience believed this to be a rape scene.
Both of these stories involved a situation that was definitely not intended to be rape, but was definitely rape as written. Jaime was in the middle of a long character arc where he gradually became a sympathetic and even likeable character, so even if depicting rape wasn't out of place tone-wise in Game of Thrones, it was incredibly inappropriate to have that character do it at that point in the story. Meanwhile, Diana is... well, Wonder Woman. A superhero. A symbol of selfless love. Rape is about as opposite to loving and selfless as an act can be.
Depressingly, I can think of even more examples of this sort of thing without trouble, both in fiction and in real life.
Also, as a side note: I understand a grief like Diana's first-hand. I fell in love with a person who later died. I knew that person for less than a year, and I'm still experiencing emotional fallout several years later. And even I had to roll my eyes at Diana not moving on. Don't get me wrong - she gets to miss him and grieve for him 70 years later. I buy that part completely. But she's never formed another relationship, another friendship even, never built a full life for herself outside of this man? In 70 years? Now she doesn't feel like a person to me. She feels like a caricature. I should be empathizing with her; instead, I am completely disconnected.
It's funny, I actually think the general morality of WW84 is actually even WORSE than you do, because the almost explicitly stated moral isn't just "cheating is bad" but "wishing for better is bad, because the truth is enough". And this is even though the flashpoint of Cheetah wanting to be like Dianna is her almost being literally sexually assaulted, and Max Lord's flashpoint is having a physically and emotionally abusive childhood in poverty, their realities were absolutely not good enough, but the movies message is literally "do not wish for better"
I will say, there is a level of racism in this movie. Gal, overall, is a white woman. For a white woman to tell a man of color to give up on having a dream of having power and influence is profoundly fucked up.
I do take slight issue in this video with the "Irish as a race" issue, because Irish has always been an ethnicity and ethnic discrimination is also incredibly harmful. For anyone reading this, a tool: if you can say someone is Black and something else (e.g. Black Irish, Black Jew, Black American, Black Italian) then the something else is most likely not race, but ethnicity/nationality or religion. Black is a race because it's not tied to any specific place, Irish is an ethnicity because it IS tied to a location.
Also, I am happy to find another person who enjoyed Birds Of Prey as much as I did. ♡
Ehhhhhh, this breakdown of race v. ethnicity falls apart pretty quickly under slight scrutiny in part because in most cases you can just mix up the words and add more descriptors and have it still make sense, in part because, for example, the Irish and Scots are actually colonized peoples with distinct heritages and deeply painful pasts. It also relies on race being defined based on skin color alone which is... very new, and most commonly found in the liberal western world. Even a large chunk of the GOP, being white Christians, don't talk about race this way. I used to fuss over the technical difference, but too much of the world and even this country do not care about race vs. ethnicity, and unless we're talking about different parts of Europe it all means "race" to them. Antisemites don't talk about the Jewish religion, or the Jewish ethnicity, they talk about the Jewish race. Up until very recent US history, White Christian America did not meaningfully entertain the notion that anyone not white or Christian was the same race, and it's a similar story in much of Europe, Eastern Europe, and Russia. My in-laws look at me like I'm nuts if I try to make that kind of distinction because to them, not white? Not Christian? After that it's all just other races.
Growing up as part of a group that people really want to argue should be one or the other or both or neither, part of me desperately wants to take on the idea that the difference matters to the experience or to how enlightened one is or to anything, but another part of me is almost certain that when push comes to shove it will mean nothing.
Thank both of you for sharing! I love seeing all the constructive discourse in Jessie's comment sections, and I'm glad to be among people such as yourselves from whom I always learn 💛
I was pretty sure at first that the campiness was supposed to try and vibe with more traditional sup movies from the 80s and early 90s. Then I got confused as heck and lost track of what was going on
Regarding the "Irish" thing: that kind of stuff was happening to Irish people in the UK at that time, and there are still many in the UK who still see us as lesser than the UK.
It wasn't really about expelling Irish people from the UK though, if anything it was about keeping them around to exploit them whilst still deeming them to be lesser. The movie conflating all racism with the "get them out" mentality is worrying because sometimes racism is more like "stick around so we can scapegoat you and exploit your labour."
"Handsome Man" was the main character in an Ayn Rand movie.
Plot twist-Zack Snyder edited the movie.
Not that that’s true but that would explain a lot of this horseshit
@@gateauxq4604 Snyder edited the first movie too. The issue here is the writing. As for Handsome Man, the fact that Ayn Rand movies share a casting pool with Hallmark movies is not shocking lmfao
Hahahaha
@@seanian8986 Actually, to be fair, hallmark movies have gotten some impressive actors in the past. Jeff Daniels & David Oyelowo are two. Probably not any lately though...😂
Try saying "Ayn Rand Handsome Man" ten times fast
As someone who writes TG/TF fiction (which is somewhat in the same sphere of writing as body-swapping albeit the transformee becoming either a copy of that person, rather than take them over or turned into an entirely new individual) I have to agree, what's most confusing is how they portray the sexual abuse with barbara, with it being stopped by wonder woman and then Barbara killing him. What also concerns me is I've seen a few people saying that because its Wonder Woman it's okay as "who wouldn't turn down sex with her."
Those words hit way too close to home
I'm curious, I've read quite a bit of TG/TF fiction, what have you written?
@@ThAlEdison My main blog is Vypresscaptions but also have a Twitter site which is more active currently StarzZoey
Let’s see them use that reasoning IN THE RAPE TRIAL!
Imagine trying to use that logic if the roles were reversed. It's okay because who would turn down sex with Chris Pine?
I would say that the interpretation that the "Handsome man" was assaulted is not merely possible but inescapable. His consent was not obtained for any of it. This reminds me of that scene from Revenge of the Nerds tbh. On a lighter note, great vid as always ;)
Yep it was straight up rape. The man didn't consent to any of it. I'm convinced the only reason a bigger deal isn't made out of it is due to the sexist notion that since wonder woman is attractive and the man is a man, he obviously would have consented if he had the chance which is supposed to make it okay.
Feminism has spent decades hammering home the importance of consent and this supposedly feminist movie completely threw that out of the window.
@@Alexander-tu3iv Yeah, I just wish people knew what feminsim stands for and not just assume its about "women first".
(This is not meant as a criticism because everyone does this) I'm still mildly entertained how everyone mispronounces Gal Gadot's last name as though it's French. It's not a silent t. ;p
It’s actually a silent G, in both names.
Yeah Hebrew is not French. I have family with that very last name. That T is just a transliteration of the the Hebrew letter ת and it's not silent.
@@Matrim42 al adot?
@@mellow_mallow no. As an Israeli it's pronounced exactly how it's written: Gal Gadot. With the G very much pronounced.
@@orbenezra647 good to know!!
When Diana -- a wealthy, stunningly attractive, superpowered immortal with both a day job and a side job doing the things she's most passionate about -- gripes that she can't have "just this one thing" while Barbara is villainized for wanting only a tenth of the influence and respect Diana commands _just by existing_ as literal demigod... I just about lost every last drop of my shit.
With this is mind, it becomes especially disappointing when the One Thing She Values Most turns out to be her superpowers. I get it, from a plot perspective. But it really does make it look like she's defined by her power rather than her character. There is nothing else in this world that she's more attached to, no other cause she would sacrifice for, than her own greatest privilege?
Your interpretation of Barbera and Diana's relationship is WAY different than mine. I totally thought Barbera had a crush on Diana and was deeply disappointed when Diana didn't heal from losing Steve through dating Barbera. Obviously I knew that wouldn't actually happen, but I never saw their relationship as toxic or shallow because I was looking at it through that lens.
This movie somehow managed to be sort of bizzaro intersectional to me, as in it pissed me off at basically every intersection. The feminist in me was annoyed for all the reasons you state; the bi woman in me was pissed at the blatant qveerbaiting; the film nerd in me was frustrated by the shoddy writing and narrative soup, and the Egyptian in me, well you can imagine. Even as a costume nerd I gotta say; the clothes were beautiful, but they weren't anything more than that. There was no narrative meaning in them, a bit of character explored a bit in Barbara's looks, but not much. Gal Godot looks like a goddess in silk, but that was one note repeated with little variation, no story. So yeah, beautiful wardrobe but meh costuming (apart from the opening scene).
To me, Steve's return was them "ripping off" another Scott Bakula sci-fi series Quantum Leap. To summarize, Balboa is a scientist who tests his experiment on himself in a desperate attempt to keep the project going. Instead he wakes up in the past and in someone else's body. Each episode he would deal with a problem and "leap" into another body. Wonder Woman 1984 even uses the same gimmick of the character looking into a mirror to show what the body actually looks like while the audience sees bakula but the characters see the original body.
QL at least minimally engaged with the fact that the guy was taking over people's bodies and showed him trying to be ethical with it.
@@ErekLich True but there was a three parter where Sam has sex with a woman and this results in a daughter who is geneticly his and not the Leapee's. There is also the reveal that he has a wife he forgot about who has to hear about his various time traveling flings.
@@gregorycourtney1532 To be fair to QL, it was actually made in a time where this wouldn't have been brought up as an issue whereas WW84 was made in a post #metoo world where the idea of sexual consent is a huge issue. Massive oversight on their part IMO. Especially when it's shown in the film that wishes can make things materialize out of nowhere.
@@KristiTwigger True, but there is some context. Up above someone brought up Sam Becket, Scott Backulla's character, trying to be ethical about it. Part of what they are referring to is in the early seasons Becket doing everything he can to avoid sex. Not only is it a moral thing on Beckett's part, but it also led to one the reoccurring points of tension with his friend and sidekick, Al, who is a complete horndog as a point of contrast. As the series goes on, Beckett relaxes a bit on it, , leading to the three parter. Also it is shown repeatedly that Becket somehow gains the love the leapee has to whoever they are interested in when he is in their body.
"In the down below" is such an ominous way to refer to the description.
Sounds double entendre to me
XD
“In the nether space”?
@@alisaurus4224 like in Minecraft?
@@FatherIimaginedyoutaller i don’t know MC terms so reference is accidental 😁
Didn't the troubles raged on during 1984?
I'm sure if the Irish were facing a horrible "throw them out"-campaign by the british the UK would have fallen into civil war.
Yes, you are correct. People like to forget just how scary a time this was...the IRA was actively trying to kill Margaret Thatcher at the time, there were bombs going off even in England, innocent people were thrown in prison...the fantastic film "In the Name of the Father" with Daniel Day Lewis and Emma Thompson gives you an idea of how *tense* the atmosphere was...That scene was just impossibly tone-deaf .
Yeah the oppression of Irish people in Britain was not about "getting rid" of Irish people, it's historically been about forcibly keeping Ireland within the empire whilst still treating Irish people as second class citizens. Racism doesn't always entail getting rid of people, and that makes me think this movie was written by someone with a really shallow understanding of the history.
It is baffling that this should be a film about a woman PINEing for a long lost love from 60 yrs ago. Surprising since Patty Jenkins directed and wrote it. I'd like to see a 'Making of' Documentary (it would surely be better than this movie)
Worse; _seventy_ years prior.
Kudos on the pun, btw.
on the one hand, yeah it's a long time. On the other, 70 years is not so long when you're immortal. It's still super weird though ...
@@goodial to me it actually makes it weirder, you go through so much things and learn so much sometimes in a year, so 70 years seems to long in my opinion to have the same hangups
32:37 Fun fact, people. Mohamed Diab (director of the MCU’s “Moon Knight” series) explicitly wrote the iconic “I’m an Egyptian superhero” sequence as a refutation of how Egypt and Bialya were portrayed in “Wonder Woman 1984”.
The most disappointing thing about WW84 was that I immediately thought that the plot would be blonde nerd would be the person to help Diana get over Steve (in a gay way or in a friend way) but no… he just came back
One of the reasons I consider Birds of Prey to be a feminist film, and one of the ways that WW falls short of this, isnt just how women in a movie are treated by the story, but how women treat each other in a movie. Birds of Prey gets the relationships between different kinds of women, with different, goals right. Whereas WW is only concerned with how the one woman gets treated by the script.
Also the inability to imagine the repercussions of decisions that get made in these types of films extends to the Avengers Endgame, movie and all the people who seem to look on Thanos as some sort of ecological hero, to be looked up to. The repercussions of eliminating 50% of human life on the planet was never thought about except in the most shallow way by its white middle class creators.
"The repercussions of eliminating 50% of human life on the planet was never thought about except in the most shallow way by its white middle class creators."
It's crap like this that renders me thoroughly detached from the ultra-majority of event comics.
Sí, I agree about Birds of Prey! However, your Marvel argument confuses me. White and middle class creators can be less aware/mindful of race and class issues, however, I don't see a direct correlation from that to downplaying the Blip's effects. Actually, besides Spiderman Far From Home, the MCU seems to have taken the Blip seriously. They showed the Blip's effects in End Game: Earth was now a desolate/sad place with traumatized people and barren neighborhoods. Actually, in the show WandaVision (which I realize came out after your comment), we see a hospital in turmoil right after the Blip occurred showcasing the event as truly dangerous/frightening.
I do find it strange that there are fans who see Thanos as a sort of 'anti-hero' even after we see all the damage that he causes. However, I think that's more on the fans than the creators. I chalk it up to the character/story all being fiction and therefore easier to romanticize. Similar thing happened with the Joker movie. Yes, the creators for both did portray these characters with somewhat sympathetic origins, but the audience still did witness their objectively bad actions like murder and theoretically we're all capable of differentiating between right and wrong....
I think the contrast between Harley's BOP movie and this one can be partly attributed to the virg!n/wh0re dichotomy.... Harley is a crazy woman, a sympathetic villain. Therefore she's "allowed" to lead a life that "normal" people wouldn't want (a life of crime, and a life without a man). Whereas Diana is a true hero. She always does what is morally right which, in our patriarchal society, includes being loyal and devoted for the one man she fell in love with even after his death. She is not allowed to be a free woman because "good" women devote their lives to men.
Between what was said here and what my sister and I discussed...I think I'll give this a HUGE pass. I couldn't get passed the fact that Wonder Woman was still pining for a man who died heroically and would probably have died by 1980 even if he'd survived the war and now finding out that he was stealing someone's body?!
I have a lot of not-very-suitable-for-work views regarding sexual assault on men.
The whole thing about everyone ignoring this random man having his life just taken from him was so disturbing to me??? Like why did no one even bring it up! Why was it never even a factor!!?? The whole thing was just so messed up to me
I was really looking forward to this movie because of Cheetah. I expected it to be about the positive aspects and negative aspects of female friendships because in (most of) the comics Barbara and Diana are friends and only become enemies when their relationship starts to become toxic.
Even during the scene where Diana stares longingly at planes, I thought "Oh maybe this is a setup to show that both her and Barbara are alone in the world and that thanks to their friendship they won't be as lonely". But nope, it's about Steve...
I totally thought that Steve Trevor was reincarnated and was remembering his past life till I heard Diana say we need to find out how a rock brought my boyfriend back to life in another man's body. Yikes!!!! Also just have it be the anniversary of Steve's death so she is feeling sad that her first human friend and first live isn't around qnd mourning while moving on and maybe contemplating if she wants to start a relationship since she realizes that she hasn't aged. It would have been a interesting take on loss and Diana learning more about being human and missing her family. At the end of the movie have her talk to her mother while returning the golden armor. Would have been nice to see them talk with each other and reconnect
I actually really enjoyed WW1984, but I didn't quite agree with its messages. And I'm glad that other people agree with me.
...if there _is_ a third movie, I really hope THIS is the series's Into Darkness and that'll be its Beyond.
I feel like the writers either didn't understand, or didn't care about who Wonder Woman is as a character, and instead made her a cardboard cutout whose only character trait is "compassion" (but like, if you closely examine the text an argument can definitely be made that she doesn't even really have that).
I also hate that Barbara/Cheetah relays on the 'loser' stereotype. As someone that has been bullied at school and is sometimes overlooked, I related to her in a more human way than Diana, and of course, her wish was to be like Diana, she didn't want powers or immortality all she wanted was to be seen, to feel like a person within her life and instead of the movie exploring that she got sidelined and her shift to villain didn't seem earned or plotted well like I don't know why she wanted to be a cheetah after beating Diana's ass. It seemed like a scene was missing between the Washington scene and the plane scene.
Same
I really liked the movie when I was watching it, like the viewing experience was pretty good, but the more I think about it the more these flaws and questionable messaging stands out to me
You cheated Diana....girl, you put her up against adults
I understand Diana being saddened by Steve's abscence. People miss loved ones that have passed on. That's normal. I understand(to an extent) that Diana didn't want to be romantically involved with anyone else after his death.
There have been plenty of people who did not wish to pursue another relationship after the passing of their partner and spouse, and that's understandable. But those relationships are earned and emotionally intimate and deeply rooted, and Diana and Steve didn't seem to have that, especially with how short of a time they got to know each other.
This is just a thought.
Also, the implications of rape/taking advantage of the body of an unconscious man is very.... disturbing, for lack of a better word.
I had many of the same issues that you did when watching the film especially about Barbara’s character. The movie kind of felt a little like it was attacking women through Barbara because it sometimes had this general vibe that read like Barbara was evil because she envied and wanted to be like Diana, but the movie did everything to hammer home just how successful, desired, and trusted Diana was to the people around her with there only being that 1 tiny issue of her dead boyfriend. The movie kind of goes even further to mix up the message of Barbara when the first day she wakes up after her wish, men immediately start noticing her and she is LITERALLY wearing the same clothes from the day before. So, she didn’t even have to get to the cliche beauty makeover (though they do make sure to throw one in later) before people start acting like they’ve never noticed how attractive she is. I’m not sure what message they were trying to go for with that, are they saying that Barbara didn’t become or was ever beautiful but it’s just that the wishing stone makes all men attracted to her? Or are they saying that all the men attracted to Diana are attracted purely because of some innate superhero, godly power? I felt it was a really missed opportunity as well, to have the cost of Barbara’s “conversion into Diana” be her “humanity”? Her “niceness”? I’m not really sure, I mean, I sort of like the idea that Barbara wasn’t altogether an evil maniacal bad guy (at first) but her selfish desire to keep the power, strength, “beauty” (cause they didn’t really “fix” anything with her looks) made it so she would protect Max even while the whole world went to hell. But what they really should have done was make the cost of that power be the loss of memory, specifically the stuff that made her successful before her wish. Like if she started forgetting the stuff she learned that made her a doctor, not make her stupid, but the movie did kind briefly mention all the doctorates or PhDs or whatever that she had and she did seem proud of them but what if that was the price she had to pay to have Diana’s abilities? If she had to come to grips with losing something she worked so hard to get, just to cheat and get something that she didn’t work for. I feel like something along those lines might have tied in better with the message the beginning of the movie was trying to convey rather than, “hey, relinquish your wish cause you’re not nice anymore now that you have power.” (Which kind of also has the same flavor of the Max issue of don’t give money to poor people cause this is what they do with it. Don’t give influence/beauty to unattractive women cause this is what they’d do to keep it...unless they’re Diana, an immortal demigod who is properly equipped to handle all the attractiveness she exudes...#sarcasm)
A lot of people don't give _Captain Marvel_ credit for what it did allegorically. It took themes that women deal with, gaslighting and abuse, and echoed them on a social level. Carol's memory is manipulated to bring her to the Kree point of view. That's echoed in the way the Supreme Intelligence, and states, manipulate news and history to manufacture consent. The Kree have a count down since the last Skrull attack. This is similar to the constant War on Terror color charts during the W. Bush administration. The colors were nonsensical and mostly served to keep the populace on edge. And thus, willing to trade freedom for security.
Having Mar-Vell and the Supreme Intelligence portrayed by the same actor was also a brilliant move. It references how States can steal the identity of their enemies and recast them as icons--case in point, Martin Luther King. He was despised by many in power during his life. The FBI famously tried to get him to kill himself. But now he's held up as an icon for the status quo he fought against.
The film also pulls off a _Starship Troopers_ movie idea. It's constantly shifting roles communicate that it's not so easy to tell who is who and maybe you need to pay close attention to whom you are rooting for.
But, you know, superhero film, punchy, punchy, boom, boom. Funny cat.
I don't know how much we can alleviate patty Jenkins considering she was both the director and the writer. Especially considering wb didn't want to cut both scenes, but just one scene considering both didn't feel necessary.
I, in fact, did not know Pennyworth was a thing.
I did but I don’t know where to find it. Im also generally annoyed because Sean Pertwee was such a good younger Alfred on Gotham that I didn’t want to see anyone else in the role. 😕
And another one. Thank you so Fricken much about the male bodily autonomy. I have had too many male friends be abused in various ways and have always downplayed their own abuse, and it’s honestly sickening how often we see men be abused in media like this as if it is a joke.
Jessie why are you teasing me like this?! I'm too intrigued by the title to wait 3 whole days!
I would just point out Patty had way more control over this one as a director and a writer. The first one was written by a completely different team.
This is my issue as well. I wanted to give PJ a pass on this film but I learned that the first one (which I love and think does a great job balancing her as a independent character who happens to fall in love) was actually written by Zack Snyder. So yeah, no excuses given to PJ. Disappointing that a female had basically unlimited creative control of this and we got what we got.
The first scene, seeing little Diana cheat to be the greatest, showed us that she was a selfish little girl. WW didn't realize that she was still kind of selfish because she believes that she can "have it all". But, like the rest of us, we can't have it all. Although I still can't get behind is that she knew Steve for two months and then spent 70 years pining for him.
Cheetah was done wrong in this movie. You got that part right. I think we wanted WW and Cheetah to partner up, instead we had that dumb "jealous beauty" trope. (Let's not forget the trope that the woman has been attractive all this time, just needed to stop wearing glasses, change her hair, etc.)
I would like to think that Steve was reincarnated as "handsome guy", and her wish made him "wake up". I'm sure the movie wasn't thinking about that.
This is a great video that broke down exactly how I had problems with this. So many times I was cringing in my chair. I hoped for better.
So glad you're covering this Jessie! I'm still watching - but I was too excited to wait to comment! I too was rather perturbed by the really questionable moral messages the film was clumsily and unintentionally pushing.
I do disagree with you a little on the opening sequence. Since the rules of the athletic event were not made clear, the way I interpreted what was happening at the time was quite different. Diana was ahead of her competitors, but her anxiety caused her to lose concentration, stumble and fall behind. She then perceived a clever way to catch up to her horse and resume the race - teaching that her natural raw power is not enough, that it should be tempered with intelligence, and ingenuity. She missed the final target - but I took this as her not taking the path laid out for her. However, I then found it rather jarring that Diana was then snatched out of the race, told she cheated - and that 'that is the only truth'.
It seemed ironic to me that within the first fifteen minutes, a film with '1984' in the title is correcting my interpretation of truth and insisting it has the sole monopoly on it.
I see what the film was trying to do, it was trying to re-establish the importance of truth in an age of misinformation - but clumsily ignores the fact that there are many angles to any single problem, many truths and perspectives. It tries to say 'more for the sake of more is inherently destructive', in an age of rampant corporate greed and wealth inequality - especially in the U.S. But instead it pushes the message that ordinary people and underdogs shouldn't wish for more, and be grateful for what they had to begin with.
The dislikes are from WB execs.
Hmmm 🤔
Yea, this film has ‘issues’ no doubt, but ‘overall’ I did like it
I’m a glass half full kind of viewer and here’s a couple of things I liked...
WW84 was purposely different from the first film - the first film was a colour saturated gritty war film - the sequel is a colourful and earnest homage
to 80’s Donner ‘fun’ superhero films
Also, I liked that Maxwell Lord’s powers acted like a Ponzi Scheme just like his original business
Lastly, WW84 was one of the only superhero films I can think of where even a God can’t just punch her way out of the problem - unlike the first film
Just my 2 cents worth
"This bisexual woman has a thing for women who can beat me up." XD HOW ARE WE THE SAME PERSON
As a guy I read the contrast between Cheetah and Wonder Woman was compassion. Barb is shown at the beginning of the movie to be a compassionate person who helps homeless people. After she gets her powers she changes. She loses that compassion and empathy she had for other people and that's what made her selfish. In fact a lack of compassion and empathy was kind of the core conflict of the whole movie. Lord is obsessed with having more. It doesn't matter how much you've got, you should always want more. Do whatever it takes, just as long as you get more! He literally targets people who can give him what he wants with no thought to the consequences of giving these people the thing they want most. By the end of the movie he's giving most of the world the ability to make a wish without real informed consent on the matter and then taking what he wants from them, in some cases the literal health and vitality just to undo the consequences of his own actions.
In that light, I read the end of the movie where we're getting flashbacks of Max's terrible childhood was essentially him remembering what he wanted all this money and power for in the first place and that was to not be the shit father his dad was and he was failing on that front.
Course, I was getting STRONG unrequited romantic affection vibes from Barb after she spent some time with Diana and that was the source of her jealousy. She didn't really care about everyone else noticing her. Just Diana... course then Lord actually shows interest in her and she jumps his bones first chance she gets and after that all of the unrequited love vibes go right out the window. This feels like a "It wouldn't do well in China." move again.
What I never got about this movie was:
Why are there 2 downsides to Diana's wish? She loses Steve's original body AND her powers; why?!
It's not like Steve's original body was there for her to lose, or it benefitted Max Lord to take it
The gem taking her powers makes perfect sense, especially if it gave them to Max! Then maybe she'd have to use that armor to fight both Max and Cheetah without her powers.
Why worry about the body thing, especially when you could cut this subplot out, give us regular Chris Pine, and it wouldn't change the story at all.
I didn't think it was possible to write such a nonsensical Story and put WW in a plotline so bad i get a headache every 5 Minutes from thinking WTF and why do i keep watching this crap. It is almost as the WW part of the Franchise wanted to commit Suicide after the first Movie that was a solid peace of Entertainment and Craftsmenship and they figured out they couldn't even reach the same Level again so just tank it and let it die in shame. That would be in line with the Logic this Movie follows, utterly insane.
The real beef i have with this Movie is i made a big production watching this Crap with a Theme styled Diner before and the Cosplay getup for Moral support, having my better half cursing like a drunk sailor after 20 Minutes and changing inton her PJs after 30 while still cursing is a Memory i didn't nead in 2021.
WTF Kristen Wig plays Kristen Wig ! WHY ?
WW is only about 12 Minutes in her Getup while bumbling through the least insane storypart that has zero impact on the rest of the Story. Mental Bodyswaps ? Someone probably failed to pay the Bill to the Freaky Friday Franchise since this Storyline is mental and paints WW as a lunatic that has dropped most of her characteristix in surrender for one selfish wish.
So the Icon of fighting for the opressed, the comic Queen for representing Power of non Male Origin all of a sudden abandons her own ethical Core for the Love of one Man, that is a disregard for the Character I didn't think was possible to even voice, not even mentioning putting this lunatic Idea on Screen.
My Suggestionen is to watch it anyway and get a few damaged or broken goods handy so you can break them some more. For insighting Anger of unwanted Proportions this Movie is a Masterpiece.
I dunno; Amazons Attack and the JMS run were pretty poor, and the initial Silver Age run of Wondy was plenty sexist and stupid in its own right. I worry about this movie as a story only more due to more people being bound to see it.
EDIT: Oh god dammit I remembered that NBC pilot! Ugh!
I reported my credit card as stolen after the end credits
I've seen people point out that the stranger doesn't seem to have been conscious since he doesn't appear to recognize Diana later. Which is better than if he'd been aware the whole time with no control, but still means the supposed hero of the movie did the magical equivalent of violating a coma patient.
I mean I am a trans woman but when everyone (myself included) thought I was a guy I got sexually assaulted by other students in my middle school and as a result this movie just playing the Steve Trevor thing off as cute and funny was deeply disturbing
I also hate the fact that Diana was so obsessed with Steve even though she had relationships with other people from Steve's world who continued to live after Steve's death. They should have focused on the fact that no matter how many friends Diana makes, they will die and she'll keep on living.