Amazing advice, I had been thinking about this recently and your explanation was perfect timing. I'm definitely going to give this a try with my HA setup.
Gave this a try today on a HA foil and it worked liked a dream, the board gets on plane much quicker with less drag from the foil and lift off is way easier and smoother. Thanks a stack for sharing this great advice. Interesting discovery was I had to move the mast back slightly to rebalance foot pressure.
Hi Dwight, First of all I think you make beautiful boards and that you only make them for yourself. You are absolutely right, I also make boards myself and you get connected to the board so yes to do that for someone else ☺. But your boards are so beautiful in color (Orange: Holland 😉), I build completely in carbon but I have the idea that you only use that for the boxes. Could you perhaps tell me a bit more about what materials you use foam, glass fibers, reinforcements, deck reinforcement (Pu?) etc. My board always turns out too heavy so yes what can I leave and what not? And then the shim, after your video I also started experimenting. First the thickest side to the front, but that had the opposite effect then the thinnest to the front and that made better glide. Greets Jacob 68y keep on foiling! 😁
Thank you for your video! I am learning to wingfoil on inflatable board. It seems to have no built in rake. In my current setup I need to push hard on front leg when taking off or it goes up to full mast and slaps down. Also I need to push nose to get speed, and it often makes nose to dive. I ordered 2 and 3 degree mast plates in 3d printing. Hopefully it can somehow solve my issues)
I’m tying myself in knots since i have been using a different brand board to the brand of my foil, if you dont want any trouble just buy the same brand board 😅 It’s started with a armstrong foil on a gong board i couldnt tune properly ended with 2 degree shim and a stab shim , i changed for something more plug and play but having a rake shim is never the same than having the brand designer board. On my fanatic sky free te 2023 im using a front rake shim of 1 degree on my foil which us full forward on the us box, another issue with shimming is strap insert, that why i had to put the foil full forward in the box, because even if i had the strap full back i had a lever forward that was putting the nose down i was past the balance point. Here some tip to notice your board is not fine tuned , backleg burning, stay up straight on the board while flying and if the board cannot maintain the fly without you changing your balance it’s not balanced, same goes for changing foot in fly if the board fell off instantly you are not balanced either. The truth is , probably around 80% of people riding mixed gear doesnt have they board properly tuned ! As for the surf foil , i find easier to maintain fly with little bit of front foot especialy when pumping, backfoot is ok when the wave push you but when it’s stop 😟 it’s sux it more tiring to offcentered in the back and you feeling more the lift of the foil with little bit of front foot only issue, is you will loose little bit of bottom range , that why it’s better to alway favor the same brand , since then i purchased the same brand board for my foil in surf foil and it’s night and day…
Nice timing! Experimenting with this at the moment on an Fone Rocket V2 (2022) and winging with Sabfoil Blades (w1000, w740), also w835 Onda. Quite a strong forward tilt at speed,making it feel quite strange and hard to get out of any touchdowns. Also hard to be efficient hiking upwind with the rail heeled over if the nose wants to be angled down. A 1 degree mast shim improves this a lot by giving 3.6deg rake and will be trying a 2 degree, which gives me about 4.6deg rake. I wouldn’t want to go much more than 2deg shim as the bolt threads now will be stressed a bit mote off axis and also the contact point of the mast securing bolts and washers will tend to take take an angle relative to the carbon mast base, instead of a flush seating. Thanks for the video.
Thank you kindly for all the info you share.., I am trying to figure out what is wrong with the new wing foil board I bought (?)... It is a wing board that looks like a small SUP board (like yours on the video) it is 5´2 foot x 16 inch x 5,5 inch and it has almost no rocker... it was custom made in Brazil by a surf shaper... the take off is smooth but my feet have to be way ahead.. if MI bring them closer to the back of the board the foil takes off the water quickly so as I wing my maneuverability is deficient, which means I can´t do sharp turns... I thought moving the foil box back would help, but my local shaper thinks it has more to do with the rocker... I´ll need to get a digital level to measure the rake.. it kind of looks even... could you share your thoughts on this? Do you think a shim will help out and correct my maneuverability (sharp turns) or rake only improves feet level on the front and back foot? Thank you for your ocnsideration
I think your tracks might need to move back. This is how you can check correct track placement. 1) you know where you want to stand on the deck, based on volume distribution of the new board. This is something you only know after riding any new shape, not previously tested by a shaper. 2) with feet on the deck where “you want them to be” while riding, mark on deck pad where your rear foot is. You should already know where mast should be in relation to your rear foot, based on riding that foil on other boards. If not, ride foil on your old board, with marks on deck pad for center of mast. Get to know where your rear foot is at all points of riding this foil, in relation to center of mast. Now you are an expert on where the mast should be on any other boards in relation to your rear foot on the deck pad. 3) then if board still feels wrong, try shims of base plate.
@@foilsurfmachines Thank you very much for your answer... I have put a shim on the back wing/stabalizer and will do a shim on the bas eplate as well.. so far with the stabilizer shim the board has improved about 60% to where I feel very comfortable.. I am. waiting for a shim plate now... My best regards!
great info! thanx. what rocker would you recommend for a 7.6-8.0 dw board? for being long even more rocker of 1.5-2.0 degrees? Would appreciate your feedback
I think 1 degree at the tracks is a safe number for SUP. Add base plate shim if you need more for winging. Rocker as measured correctly, tail rise from mid point, can be anything you want, based on how much tail tap clearance you think you need.
Thanks Dwight for your good info. Did I see an R front foil. I have been wondering if Rs for low wind foiling without swell would be better to use due to improved glide and speed.
Cheers Dwight, I've been playing with this for sometime but couldn't explain it technicals as well as you have so thank you. I do have a question or two if you may have some thoughts to share. I use sunova boards, Armstrong MA foils but a project cedrus mast and fuse (no rake built into these) . What I spent awhile doing was to stand balanced on the board stationary and to get on foil without readjusting my feet. This ended up requiring a 1½° base plate shim. And the result is smooth effortless take offs 👍 The only thing about this setup is at speed sometimes my rear tail will suck up to the surface and pull the board almost windward and into a crash. I've just started to experiment with a mast fuse 1½° shim as this gives the plane the same desired effect. I have only had one go in light conditions to test a couple days ago. It seems to have a similar effect but need more trials. (80cm mast). Do you have any thoughts on the positives, negatives or changes i should of could make? Cheers if you do have an thoughts
Adding rake via the fuse, is same effect as adding via base plate shim. I think I read Armstrong added their 1 degree of rake via the fuse mount, not the base angle on the new mast. My guess is the boxy tail of that board is causing it. A board with the chine tapering more at the tail might give the clearance you need.
nice explanation Dwight! I'm a little confused how with a leveled setup your nose will point down at higher speeds. does the foil and fuse typically ride that far off the level when at speed?
The thinner, faster foils, do seem to ride at very low angles. The Code foils are crazy thin. Mike’s Lab thin. 11.5, 12, and 13mm thick. It’s fascinating that windsurfers doing 40 knots need 3.5 degrees rake. Keep in mind your Armstrong mast has a built in rake of 1 degree. When added to your Armstrong board, I’d guess your rake is about 2 degrees also.
@@foilsurfmachines I've been reverse shimming the mast cause of that 1 degree rake. I've been trying to paddle up on the flat and I feel drag, which seems to get better when I shim the back of the mast with a 1 degree plate. my technique has been evolving, so maybe I can get rid of that now. I guess different foils add another piece of complexity to the puzzle.
@@OCEANBOUND1 that makes total sense to me, because when I foil drive, I use 1 degree of rake. I’ll bet you’re at 1 degree rake when reverse shimmed. That 1 degree coming from the board rocker. Maybe this is why Code doesn’t build in rake to the mast.
@@OCEANBOUND1 I think when we SUP we lean forward as we paddle, getting the board pretty level. When we wing, we lean back against the wing pumping action. It would be impossible to learn forward and pump the wing. I tested 0.25, 0.5, 0.75. 1.0, 1.25, 1.5 shims winging to learn how they affect take off. Take off improved with more shimming, then when it got extreme, the board started to plow nose high and take offs got harder. It was a fun test.
Another scenario is a light rider on a relatively large foil pushing for high speed. The lift produced exceeds the bodyweight and so the rider has to compensate by trimming the large foil into a negative angle of attack which on a flat rocker board will ride nose down.
Sorry but that is wrong in many respects. When you ride fast you want your fuselage to be level, if it is not there will be excessive drag. Mast should be vertical, if it is not there will be excessive drag. That is why fuse and mast always have 90 degree angle. So reference plane is not the surface of the board but the fuselage (or foil itself), because ideally it must travel at the same depth under the water. And because water surface is always level fuselage must be also level to keep the same depth (with minimal drag). If you have positive angle between fuselage and top of the board (meaning front of the fuse is further from the top than the back) it means board is nose up when foil travels level. That is useful because if you hit the water tip of the board won't catch that easily. If you then were able to push your front leg so much that board was level foil would be pointing down and lose lift and board would hit water. Theoretically you could make even this level board position work by adjusting AoA's of wing and stab but it wouldn't make sense because of increased drag. So claim that you'd be riding nose down (while keeping same depth) "on fast foil" (rockerless board and fuse parallel) is false, unless board bends under load (which would be very bad board). When riding fast foil creates more lift and you have to compensate by increasing front leg pressure, to keep it at low AoA, to not let it rise out of water. This may feel like you were riding nose pointing down. But definitely you can't push proper board nose down, to a position in which foil is pointing downwards without hitting water. Then why boards have rake in their attachment area? It just makes board ride on positive angle, kind of increases nose rocker. In practice it isn't that critical if board is more or less nose up, what is critical is the position of foil itself when riding. Start isn't that big thing any way but having some degrees of rake helps it
Your knowledge about this is from the early days. Today….top pros are running 3.5-4.5 degrees rake. I’m only running 2 degrees of rake. Nothing I say will change your mind, unless you actually try it and find out for yourself the difference it makes. It’s shocking.
@@foilsurfmachines That doesn't mean anything I wrote is wrong. If they want their board pointing more nose up it is understandable, then they don't crash that easily when hitting water I just wanted to correct some misunderstandings of the video
@@foilsurfmachines You just need to understand that fuse (foil itself) must always travel at level plane when you are riding at some speed, retaining the height. If it is not your fuse and mast are at wrong position. Rake and shimming only change your board position, more or less nose down. It is matter of taste what you want for that, I think some degrees nose up is reasonable
@@bekanav this holds true at a certain speed range. Below that speed range the fuselage will travel pointing up, above that the fuselage will travel pointing down. Has to do with the manufacturers tuning of the front wing angle relatively to the fuselage. My experience is they are generally tuned slower than I ride with it, hence my board points nose down, even when the board and foil are parallel.
@@Frozenguy1 No, like I wrote it makes no sense to have such front wing angle that fuse would travel pointing down on designed speed (travel speed, high speed) because it would increase drag for nothing. It is even worse if also board travels nose down, then it would catch at water touches, again only making it worse. At start it doesn't matter if everything is pointing up - and it should be like that to get enough lift to get up on the water. I guess if you ride very fast and you have to move your weight on front it may feel like your board (and fuse) is pointing down.
As always great information Dwight. Thanks for sharing. I have to do some measuring now to see where my kit is set up.
Amazing advice, I had been thinking about this recently and your explanation was perfect timing. I'm definitely going to give this a try with my HA setup.
Gave this a try today on a HA foil and it worked liked a dream, the board gets on plane much quicker with less drag from the foil and lift off is way easier and smoother. Thanks a stack for sharing this great advice. Interesting discovery was I had to move the mast back slightly to rebalance foot pressure.
Hi Dwight, First of all I think you make beautiful boards and that you only make them for yourself. You are absolutely right, I also make boards myself and you get connected to the board so yes to do that for someone else ☺.
But your boards are so beautiful in color (Orange: Holland 😉), I build completely in carbon but I have the idea that you only use that for the boxes.
Could you perhaps tell me a bit more about what materials you use foam, glass fibers, reinforcements, deck reinforcement (Pu?) etc. My board always turns out too heavy so yes what can I leave and what not?
And then the shim, after your video I also started experimenting. First the thickest side to the front, but that had the opposite effect then the thinnest to the front and that made better glide.
Greets Jacob 68y keep on foiling! 😁
Thank you for your video! I am learning to wingfoil on inflatable board. It seems to have no built in rake. In my current setup I need to push hard on front leg when taking off or it goes up to full mast and slaps down. Also I need to push nose to get speed, and it often makes nose to dive. I ordered 2 and 3 degree mast plates in 3d printing. Hopefully it can somehow solve my issues)
I’m tying myself in knots since i have been using a different brand board to the brand of my foil, if you dont want any trouble just buy the same brand board 😅
It’s started with a armstrong foil on a gong board i couldnt tune properly ended with 2 degree shim and a stab shim , i changed for something more plug and play but having a rake shim is never the same than having the brand designer board.
On my fanatic sky free te 2023 im using a front rake shim of 1 degree on my foil which us full forward on the us box, another issue with shimming is strap insert, that why i had to put the foil full forward in the box, because even if i had the strap full back i had a lever forward that was putting the nose down i was past the balance point.
Here some tip to notice your board is not fine tuned , backleg burning, stay up straight on the board while flying and if the board cannot maintain the fly without you changing your balance it’s not balanced, same goes for changing foot in fly if the board fell off instantly you are not balanced either.
The truth is , probably around 80% of people riding mixed gear doesnt have they board properly tuned !
As for the surf foil , i find easier to maintain fly with little bit of front foot especialy when pumping, backfoot is ok when the wave push you but when it’s stop 😟 it’s sux it more tiring to offcentered in the back and you feeling more the lift of the foil with little bit of front foot only issue, is you will loose little bit of bottom range , that why it’s better to alway favor the same brand , since then i purchased the same brand board for my foil in surf foil and it’s night and day…
Nice timing! Experimenting with this at the moment on an Fone Rocket V2 (2022) and winging with Sabfoil Blades (w1000, w740), also w835 Onda. Quite a strong forward tilt at speed,making it feel quite strange and hard to get out of any touchdowns. Also hard to be efficient hiking upwind with the rail heeled over if the nose wants to be angled down. A 1 degree mast shim improves this a lot by giving 3.6deg rake and will be trying a 2 degree, which gives me about 4.6deg rake. I wouldn’t want to go much more than 2deg shim as the bolt threads now will be stressed a bit mote off axis and also the contact point of the mast securing bolts and washers will tend to take take an angle relative to the carbon mast base, instead of a flush seating. Thanks for the video.
I think Armstrong had the right idea when they updated their newest mast to include a 1 degree built in rake.
Wizard hat hardware fixes the angles problem of shim
@@snowpigpow I’d love to see Wizard Hat offer shims in smaller increments. My wife's board was dialed with 0.75 shim. Mine a 1.0 shim.
Thank you kindly for all the info you share.., I am trying to figure out what is wrong with the new wing foil board I bought (?)... It is a wing board that looks like a small SUP board (like yours on the video) it is 5´2 foot x 16 inch x 5,5 inch and it has almost no rocker... it was custom made in Brazil by a surf shaper... the take off is smooth but my feet have to be way ahead.. if MI bring them closer to the back of the board the foil takes off the water quickly so as I wing my maneuverability is deficient, which means I can´t do sharp turns... I thought moving the foil box back would help, but my local shaper thinks it has more to do with the rocker... I´ll need to get a digital level to measure the rake.. it kind of looks even... could you share your thoughts on this? Do you think a shim will help out and correct my maneuverability (sharp turns) or rake only improves feet level on the front and back foot? Thank you for your ocnsideration
I think your tracks might need to move back. This is how you can check correct track placement. 1) you know where you want to stand on the deck, based on volume distribution of the new board. This is something you only know after riding any new shape, not previously tested by a shaper. 2) with feet on the deck where “you want them to be” while riding, mark on deck pad where your rear foot is. You should already know where mast should be in relation to your rear foot, based on riding that foil on other boards. If not, ride foil on your old board, with marks on deck pad for center of mast. Get to know where your rear foot is at all points of riding this foil, in relation to center of mast. Now you are an expert on where the mast should be on any other boards in relation to your rear foot on the deck pad. 3) then if board still feels wrong, try shims of base plate.
@@foilsurfmachines Thank you very much for your answer... I have put a shim on the back wing/stabalizer and will do a shim on the bas eplate as well.. so far with the stabilizer shim the board has improved about 60% to where I feel very comfortable.. I am. waiting for a shim plate now... My best regards!
great info! thanx. what rocker would you recommend for a 7.6-8.0 dw board? for being long even more rocker of 1.5-2.0 degrees? Would appreciate your feedback
I think 1 degree at the tracks is a safe number for SUP. Add base plate shim if you need more for winging. Rocker as measured correctly, tail rise from mid point, can be anything you want, based on how much tail tap clearance you think you need.
Thanks for the design lecture, makes a lot of sense!
Thanks Dwight for your good info. Did I see an R front foil. I have been wondering if Rs for low wind foiling without swell would be better to use due to improved glide and speed.
The R does make gliding through jibes and tacks in no wind very easy. I have the 960R. I’m currently learning when to use it versus the 980S.
@@foilsurfmachinesthank you! I am considering to go strait to an R series for my low wind option. 145 pounds. 615s above 15mph, 770R below 15mph.
Thanks for the explanation
Cheers Dwight, I've been playing with this for sometime but couldn't explain it technicals as well as you have so thank you.
I do have a question or two if you may have some thoughts to share.
I use sunova boards, Armstrong MA foils but a project cedrus mast and fuse (no rake built into these) . What I spent awhile doing was to stand balanced on the board stationary and to get on foil without readjusting my feet. This ended up requiring a 1½° base plate shim. And the result is smooth effortless take offs 👍
The only thing about this setup is at speed sometimes my rear tail will suck up to the surface and pull the board almost windward and into a crash. I've just started to experiment with a mast fuse 1½° shim as this gives the plane the same desired effect. I have only had one go in light conditions to test a couple days ago. It seems to have a similar effect but need more trials. (80cm mast). Do you have any thoughts on the positives, negatives or changes i should of could make?
Cheers if you do have an thoughts
Adding rake via the fuse, is same effect as adding via base plate shim. I think I read Armstrong added their 1 degree of rake via the fuse mount, not the base angle on the new mast. My guess is the boxy tail of that board is causing it. A board with the chine tapering more at the tail might give the clearance you need.
nice explanation Dwight! I'm a little confused how with a leveled setup your nose will point down at higher speeds. does the foil and fuse typically ride that far off the level when at speed?
The thinner, faster foils, do seem to ride at very low angles. The Code foils are crazy thin. Mike’s Lab thin. 11.5, 12, and 13mm thick. It’s fascinating that windsurfers doing 40 knots need 3.5 degrees rake. Keep in mind your Armstrong mast has a built in rake of 1 degree. When added to your Armstrong board, I’d guess your rake is about 2 degrees also.
@@foilsurfmachines I've been reverse shimming the mast cause of that 1 degree rake. I've been trying to paddle up on the flat and I feel drag, which seems to get better when I shim the back of the mast with a 1 degree plate. my technique has been evolving, so maybe I can get rid of that now. I guess different foils add another piece of complexity to the puzzle.
@@OCEANBOUND1 that makes total sense to me, because when I foil drive, I use 1 degree of rake. I’ll bet you’re at 1 degree rake when reverse shimmed. That 1 degree coming from the board rocker. Maybe this is why Code doesn’t build in rake to the mast.
@@OCEANBOUND1 I think when we SUP we lean forward as we paddle, getting the board pretty level. When we wing, we lean back against the wing pumping action. It would be impossible to learn forward and pump the wing. I tested 0.25, 0.5, 0.75. 1.0, 1.25, 1.5 shims winging to learn how they affect take off. Take off improved with more shimming, then when it got extreme, the board started to plow nose high and take offs got harder. It was a fun test.
Another scenario is a light rider on a relatively large foil pushing for high speed. The lift produced exceeds the bodyweight and so the rider has to compensate by trimming the large foil into a negative angle of attack which on a flat rocker board will ride nose down.
Sorry but that is wrong in many respects. When you ride fast you want your fuselage to be level, if it is not there will be excessive drag. Mast should be vertical, if it is not there will be excessive drag. That is why fuse and mast always have 90 degree angle.
So reference plane is not the surface of the board but the fuselage (or foil itself), because ideally it must travel at the same depth under the water. And because water surface is always level fuselage must be also level to keep the same depth (with minimal drag).
If you have positive angle between fuselage and top of the board (meaning front of the fuse is further from the top than the back) it means board is nose up when foil travels level. That is useful because if you hit the water tip of the board won't catch that easily. If you then were able to push your front leg so much that board was level foil would be pointing down and lose lift and board would hit water. Theoretically you could make even this level board position work by adjusting AoA's of wing and stab but it wouldn't make sense because of increased drag.
So claim that you'd be riding nose down (while keeping same depth) "on fast foil" (rockerless board and fuse parallel) is false, unless board bends under load (which would be very bad board). When riding fast foil creates more lift and you have to compensate by increasing front leg pressure, to keep it at low AoA, to not let it rise out of water. This may feel like you were riding nose pointing down. But definitely you can't push proper board nose down, to a position in which foil is pointing downwards without hitting water.
Then why boards have rake in their attachment area? It just makes board ride on positive angle, kind of increases nose rocker. In practice it isn't that critical if board is more or less nose up, what is critical is the position of foil itself when riding. Start isn't that big thing any way but having some degrees of rake helps it
Your knowledge about this is from the early days. Today….top pros are running 3.5-4.5 degrees rake. I’m only running 2 degrees of rake. Nothing I say will change your mind, unless you actually try it and find out for yourself the difference it makes. It’s shocking.
@@foilsurfmachines That doesn't mean anything I wrote is wrong. If they want their board pointing more nose up it is understandable, then they don't crash that easily when hitting water
I just wanted to correct some misunderstandings of the video
@@foilsurfmachines You just need to understand that fuse (foil itself) must always travel at level plane when you are riding at some speed, retaining the height. If it is not your fuse and mast are at wrong position.
Rake and shimming only change your board position, more or less nose down. It is matter of taste what you want for that, I think some degrees nose up is reasonable
@@bekanav this holds true at a certain speed range. Below that speed range the fuselage will travel pointing up, above that the fuselage will travel pointing down. Has to do with the manufacturers tuning of the front wing angle relatively to the fuselage. My experience is they are generally tuned slower than I ride with it, hence my board points nose down, even when the board and foil are parallel.
@@Frozenguy1 No, like I wrote it makes no sense to have such front wing angle that fuse would travel pointing down on designed speed (travel speed, high speed) because it would increase drag for nothing.
It is even worse if also board travels nose down, then it would catch at water touches, again only making it worse.
At start it doesn't matter if everything is pointing up - and it should be like that to get enough lift to get up on the water.
I guess if you ride very fast and you have to move your weight on front it may feel like your board (and fuse) is pointing down.