irish here, i’ve never heard of the oak/holly king, but they do remind me of the green men, however, the seasonal fighting deities i’d know are the cailleach (hag of beara), who brings in winter, and then would’ve been juxtaposed with bridget. it’s interesting how the irish version has changed the profession of ushering in the seasons over to feminine deities, rather than the masculine deities of mainland celts
@pr1sccc Thank you for the context! I've been trying to better understand Bridget. The deific gender divide is fairly common between the Celtic and Mediterranean mythos. Greek/Anatolian river boundaries tended to be personified as men -- Ladon, Xanthus/Scamander -- while Iron Age Britonnic [& Gallic?] streams and springs were preserved in Roman markers as goddesses, like Covéntina and Sulis.
A ton of the original ancient knowledge of Pagan traditions has been lost / Christianized over the centuries. The Irish, however, are known for having made a strong effort to maintain as much of their history and lore as possible, even in the face of adversity. My understanding is that Ireland had the advantage of never having been conquered by the Romans directly, so there was actually a delay in the influence other cultures had on the Irish. With that in mind, there is a "school of thought" that Pagan religions in general had much more feminine hierarchy, or at least more balanced between masculine and feminine, before patriarchal (esp. Roman and Christian) societies invaded. Taking all those factors into consideration, there is a very strong argument that the change you mentioned between feminine and masculine deities is the opposite of what you say - where in fact the feminine deities may actually be the original. Side note on Brigid - I came across a theory that Brigid is actually an alternate name for Mary Magdalene in her role as the wife of Jesus and the leader of the feminine And Pagan balanced version of Christianity. Apparently there's even an old version of The Lord's Prayer that makes reference to a feminine/mother deity that some thought was referencing her. I don't have much source material on that theory to share as it was learned on my travels. But it certainly stimulates thought.
The Twin cities used to have the “Vulcans” topple “King Boreas” at each winter festival. The Vulcans were a men’s secret society; apparently quite rowdy
❤The analogy of people carrying holly/oak king hammers looking for nails is perfect. Protagonists are only interesting if they have a goal and a nemesis (antagonist). The same could be said for Frodo vs Sauron, Dudley Do Right vs Snidely Whiplash, or Buddha vs Sun Wu Kong. With enough mental gymnastics, any of the above mentioned nemseses COULD be tentatively compared to the Oak King vs Holly King story, but it would boil down to opposing forces clashing with one reigning supreme at the end. Ergo, the basis of EVERY hero story ever told.
I think that the idea is just general enough, taking the basic Celtic motifs of trees and the seasons, that you can easily apply it to most mythological rivalries. In a literary sense, it makes for good storytelling, kind of in the same manner that modern movies represent ninja or pirates; but I'm also plenty aware that those aren't actually very accurate.
I'm really enjoying the editing of your videos, there's some intriguing, striking and inventive images/footage in there (that photo(?) of the leaf-encrusted man at 4:50 is arresting and "across the board" raised a chortle). It's remarkable just what an outsize influence Graves's White Goddess has had on modern pagan beliefs, much to the chagrin of actual experts on the subject ;)
Thank you for this! Always appreciate your comments. And here is a link to that photo (from a May Day celebration in Hastings): commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%27Jack_in_the_Green%27_May_Day_Celebrations,_Hastings,_May_2014_(17172260180).jpg
Yea idk either. But the psuedo-heretical implication of John the Baptist being the incarnation of the devil who snuck his heretical text into the New testament in order to misguide Christianity is very metal.
Worth bearing in mind older uses of the word rivals were more companionable than confrontational. John does baptize Jesus, who in some sense replaces/supersedes John. Also cf the point about the dichotomy of Holly/Oak being spuriously superimposed on anything that vaguely resembled opposites.
First thoughts: -We also have the issue of claims that the Cailleach, Biera, Goddess of winter, literally goes through an annual transformation into Brigid, Goddess of spring. So, if Oak King & Holly King were related to Celtic religion, one would expect these characters to be their husband's, but that almost feels like it would mess up the lore a bit. That is, unless, claims that Beira becomes Brigid, then becomes Beira again is just an analogy & the Celts never actually thought they were the same? -I still am positive that Mayday is Germanic in origin, but that doesn't mean in certain places the two cultures don't cross over in modern practice to certain degrees. Who wants to bet that Wicker Tree guy is where we get the idea of the Ghillie Dhu, the Green Man & the Wicker Man ceremony? After learning about some of the practices in other cultures claiming to have been human sacrifice by outsiders, I'm kind of assuming the Wicker Man wasn't that sort of thing, but if a guy wears some kind of Wicker suit all day, then they burned it later as part of so sort of blessing, that would actually make sense.
there's also regional differences to consider. Not all of the figures may have been present in the culture of one place all at once, so what read like inconsistencies today werent at the time but parallels or overlaps. A bit like how Greek polytheism had different myths and cult practices based on what specific region you went to
I've never heard of this concept despite operating in neopagan circles for a few decades. The summer/winter dichotomy takes a lot of forms, but I haven't encountered this specific one. The application of that specific name to all of these other mythological pairings does sound strained, but I'm inclined to delve into John Williamson's book to see what case can be made for it.
Dropping some comments to give this one some attention- like I said it’s a great video. I knew about the Green Man but this sort of thing is like a drug for those of us who love this crap lol Great video, fun analysis
Hail Crom. The holly king and oak king is metaphor for the phases of a man's year. Which is broken in 2 halves. I.e. oak n holly, which in turn is halved again. Draw a circle and divide it in 4 quarters an it forms an x. The man's year. A woman's year is divided into 3.
In my opinion, without trying to disrespect Graves etc. it is simply baseless BS, as are most theories trying to systematize a mythology that we only very partially know about. The mythologies that we actually do know a lot about are… not at all systematic like that, but incredibly messy, and especially do not conform to that particular dualistic Oak king / Holly king system. At all. We can find some common Indo-European structures and motifs and talk about them. But apart from the myth of Persephone and Hades which does have some Celtic equivalents, the question of seasons is actually not important for Indo-European mythologies, a very secondary topic.
I think it would be more accurate to say that the Holly King motif was retroactively applied to those figures-not without reason, but early Germanic storytellers weren't using the term "Holly King." It's a modern(ish) invention.
Ah yes those famous rivals Jesus and John the Baptist… the same John that leapt for joy in his mothers womb at the news of christ being incarcerated, the same John that said he wasn’t fit to hold Christs sandals (the task normally given to the least amongst a man’s servants), the same John that said one is coming that is greater than I and that as he grows I must diminish. Totally famous rivals where one acted his best to submit to the others authority and to prepare the world for his arrival
John was so revered several Gnostic groups, notably the Mandaeans, split off from early emergent Christianity due to putting him above Jesus or rejecting Jesus entirely in favour of John the Baptist. Likewise the Early Church had plenty of arguements over how figures like John and Paul fit together with Jesus. It's an unorthodox reference (pardon the pun), but not an unfounded one
I'd be interested in these sources, since I only know the classical biblical narrative where both Jesus and John respect each other and one clearly is subordinate to the other
Biblical argument: Then why didn't John follow Jesus? Historical argument (assuming the two figures in question were historical, which I'm inclined to believe they were): these two apocalypticists would have been competing for the same audience
@@JakalTalk Rival would be too hostile a word, but the Mandaean religion of south Iraq (one of the oldest and bigger minor world religions. Not as big as majority ones Christianity, Islam, Buddhism but still notable like Yazidi or Druze) share quite a lot of features and come from the same time, but put John on top instead. There are parallels in smaller Gnostic movements too. Its a bit like how, well have you heard the phrase "It was Paul's religion, not Jesus'"? In their own lifetimes figures like John and Paul had their own distincr followings, which had their own split offs outside of Christianity (inside in different Gnostic sects) exactly due the very large but debated religious influence and role. I cant quote things off the top of my head, but Mandaeism put John as THE prophet and messiah, rather than the mainstream Christian view as a precursor. Islam likewise has a different relationship with John, placing him and Jesus as some of many previous prophets. Druze and Baha'i and others have a similar equal view of them. The channel probably should have clarified their parallel to Oak v Holly Kings and Green Knight v Gawain and how all this would fit together.
@ There's a lot of gnostic thought and early church debate around exactly that. Early Christianity didnt appear out of nowhere or on its own, and John the Baptist and Paul have in some cases been presented as THE enlightened figures instead due to their historic followings (before Christianity cemented as part of the Roman Empire and its culture and its governmental and military apparatus)
The name of this channel is IrishMyths. Pronouncing it the Irish way (or the closest approximation a yank can muster...in the Munster dialect) www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/Bealtaine
I've responded to this same comment multiple times (go see my responses if you're interested) so I'm going to try a different approach: Certain Christian dogmas seem to forbid Jesus and John from being rivals because Jesus has to be seen as superior/John subservient, the latter having "paved the way," so to speak, for Jesus’s arrival-or so the dogma goes. But John never becomes a follower of Jesus. And even assuming Jesus’s superiority, and John’s acknowledgement of it, that doesn't mean there wasn't a rivalry. Both apocalypticists were preaching and gaining followers in the same area at the same time. Hence, they were rivals. Think of it this way: I can play basketball against LeBron James while acknowledging he’s the greatest and that I am certainly going to lose to him-that doesn't make him any less of a rival while we're on the court. You could say I'm not a "serious rival,” but alas, we can still employ the term "rival"
Why on earth would you list Jesus and John as rivals, have you not read the Gospels? Let alone as derivatives from some neopagan myths. Is your knowledge of Christianity entirely from non-Christian sources?
Why? Because historically (assuming both Jesus and John the Baptist were historical-I’m inclined to believe they were), these two apocalypticists would have been competing for the same audience. But if you're inclined to only believe "Christian" sources, here's one for ya: "It is evident from certain scriptures that the prophet John the Baptist, was in competition. Who was his rival? (Remember what is always the right answer to every Sunday School question?) Well, it was Jesus! John the Baptist was an early competitor with Jesus." source: www.cathedralatl.org/sermons/jesus-and-john-christmas-and-competition/
@irishmyths The sermon from a random Episcopal Church is not a scholarly source, be real. The gospels themself clearly state that John the Baptist was subserviant to Jesus. Whenever crouds spoke too highly of John, he was quick to say how Jesus was superior to him. (John 1:27) There was only competition in the people's eyes. Furthermore, Jesus is not the "successor" of John as you stated, this is a fundimental misreading of the Gospels. How did you come to these conclusions
If you knew anything about Early Christianity and Gnosticism, you would know that within these circles the two historical figures did compete for dominance. Mandaeism , the only living Gnostic religion still truly alive (and not just some new religion), reveres John the Baptist as being the Messiah and not Jesus Christ.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
What I love more than these types of videos is the snooty comments left under them.
🤣 I always do my best to respond with the same level of snoot
irish here, i’ve never heard of the oak/holly king, but they do remind me of the green men, however, the seasonal fighting deities i’d know are the cailleach (hag of beara), who brings in winter, and then would’ve been juxtaposed with bridget.
it’s interesting how the irish version has changed the profession of ushering in the seasons over to feminine deities, rather than the masculine deities of mainland celts
@pr1sccc Thank you for the context! I've been trying to better understand Bridget.
The deific gender divide is fairly common between the Celtic and Mediterranean mythos. Greek/Anatolian river boundaries tended to be personified as men -- Ladon, Xanthus/Scamander -- while Iron Age Britonnic [& Gallic?] streams and springs were preserved in Roman markers as goddesses, like Covéntina and Sulis.
A ton of the original ancient knowledge of Pagan traditions has been lost / Christianized over the centuries. The Irish, however, are known for having made a strong effort to maintain as much of their history and lore as possible, even in the face of adversity.
My understanding is that Ireland had the advantage of never having been conquered by the Romans directly, so there was actually a delay in the influence other cultures had on the Irish.
With that in mind, there is a "school of thought" that Pagan religions in general had much more feminine hierarchy, or at least more balanced between masculine and feminine, before patriarchal (esp. Roman and Christian) societies invaded.
Taking all those factors into consideration, there is a very strong argument that the change you mentioned between feminine and masculine deities is the opposite of what you say - where in fact the feminine deities may actually be the original.
Side note on Brigid - I came across a theory that Brigid is actually an alternate name for Mary Magdalene in her role as the wife of Jesus and the leader of the feminine And Pagan balanced version of Christianity. Apparently there's even an old version of The Lord's Prayer that makes reference to a feminine/mother deity that some thought was referencing her.
I don't have much source material on that theory to share as it was learned on my travels. But it certainly stimulates thought.
It’s hilarious how non-confrontational yet so very point at this video is
The Twin cities used to have the “Vulcans” topple “King Boreas” at each winter festival. The Vulcans were a men’s secret society; apparently quite rowdy
❤The analogy of people carrying holly/oak king hammers looking for nails is perfect. Protagonists are only interesting if they have a goal and a nemesis (antagonist). The same could be said for Frodo vs Sauron, Dudley Do Right vs Snidely Whiplash, or Buddha vs Sun Wu Kong.
With enough mental gymnastics, any of the above mentioned nemseses COULD be tentatively compared to the Oak King vs Holly King story, but it would boil down to opposing forces clashing with one reigning supreme at the end. Ergo, the basis of EVERY hero story ever told.
I think that the idea is just general enough, taking the basic Celtic motifs of trees and the seasons, that you can easily apply it to most mythological rivalries. In a literary sense, it makes for good storytelling, kind of in the same manner that modern movies represent ninja or pirates; but I'm also plenty aware that those aren't actually very accurate.
you don't put pirates and ninjas into a calendar (unfortunatelly)
Except they were real😅
@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846As depicted in modern movies? No, they really didn't
@@andirach what didnt?
I'm really enjoying the editing of your videos, there's some intriguing, striking and inventive images/footage in there (that photo(?) of the leaf-encrusted man at 4:50 is arresting and "across the board" raised a chortle). It's remarkable just what an outsize influence Graves's White Goddess has had on modern pagan beliefs, much to the chagrin of actual experts on the subject ;)
Thank you for this! Always appreciate your comments. And here is a link to that photo (from a May Day celebration in Hastings): commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%27Jack_in_the_Green%27_May_Day_Celebrations,_Hastings,_May_2014_(17172260180).jpg
I just understood a song of ice and fire a whole lot better
Not sure where you're getting the idea that jesus and john the baptist were rivals...
Yea idk either. But the psuedo-heretical implication of John the Baptist being the incarnation of the devil who snuck his heretical text into the New testament in order to misguide Christianity is very metal.
Worth bearing in mind older uses of the word rivals were more companionable than confrontational. John does baptize Jesus, who in some sense replaces/supersedes John. Also cf the point about the dichotomy of Holly/Oak being spuriously superimposed on anything that vaguely resembled opposites.
First thoughts:
-We also have the issue of claims that the Cailleach, Biera, Goddess of winter, literally goes through an annual transformation into Brigid, Goddess of spring. So, if Oak King & Holly King were related to Celtic religion, one would expect these characters to be their husband's, but that almost feels like it would mess up the lore a bit. That is, unless, claims that Beira becomes Brigid, then becomes Beira again is just an analogy & the Celts never actually thought they were the same?
-I still am positive that Mayday is Germanic in origin, but that doesn't mean in certain places the two cultures don't cross over in modern practice to certain degrees. Who wants to bet that Wicker Tree guy is where we get the idea of the Ghillie Dhu, the Green Man & the Wicker Man ceremony? After learning about some of the practices in other cultures claiming to have been human sacrifice by outsiders, I'm kind of assuming the Wicker Man wasn't that sort of thing, but if a guy wears some kind of Wicker suit all day, then they burned it later as part of so sort of blessing, that would actually make sense.
there's also regional differences to consider. Not all of the figures may have been present in the culture of one place all at once, so what read like inconsistencies today werent at the time but parallels or overlaps.
A bit like how Greek polytheism had different myths and cult practices based on what specific region you went to
I've never heard of this concept despite operating in neopagan circles for a few decades. The summer/winter dichotomy takes a lot of forms, but I haven't encountered this specific one. The application of that specific name to all of these other mythological pairings does sound strained, but I'm inclined to delve into John Williamson's book to see what case can be made for it.
This randomly got pushed to me and I’m not mad. You got a sub out of me.
Welcome aboard!
Your pronunciation isn't perfect but its far far better than most, well done
I consider that high praise, thank you! (Please just don't go back and watch my earliest videos 😬)
Dropping some comments to give this one some attention- like I said it’s a great video. I knew about the Green Man but this sort of thing is like a drug for those of us who love this crap lol
Great video, fun analysis
Thank you so much! Appreciate it 🙏
I have the green man tattooed one my arm
Hail Crom. The holly king and oak king is metaphor for the phases of a man's year. Which is broken in 2 halves. I.e. oak n holly, which in turn is halved again. Draw a circle and divide it in 4 quarters an it forms an x. The man's year. A woman's year is divided into 3.
In my opinion, without trying to disrespect Graves etc. it is simply baseless BS, as are most theories trying to systematize a mythology that we only very partially know about. The mythologies that we actually do know a lot about are… not at all systematic like that, but incredibly messy, and especially do not conform to that particular dualistic Oak king / Holly king system. At all.
We can find some common Indo-European structures and motifs and talk about them. But apart from the myth of Persephone and Hades which does have some Celtic equivalents, the question of seasons is actually not important for Indo-European mythologies, a very secondary topic.
Graves view if Irish anything is worth disrespecting. It’s garbage.
The tone in your voive tells alot 🇮🇪🤘 I wish well 🙏
May day, spring cleaning
holly king is related wit germanic Hela / Frau Holle
I think it would be more accurate to say that the Holly King motif was retroactively applied to those figures-not without reason, but early Germanic storytellers weren't using the term "Holly King." It's a modern(ish) invention.
WHAT about Perun and Veles?? They’re Slavic
Hail Crom.
Ah yes those famous rivals Jesus and John the Baptist… the same John that leapt for joy in his mothers womb at the news of christ being incarcerated, the same John that said he wasn’t fit to hold Christs sandals (the task normally given to the least amongst a man’s servants), the same John that said one is coming that is greater than I and that as he grows I must diminish. Totally famous rivals where one acted his best to submit to the others authority and to prepare the world for his arrival
Jesus and John the Baptist were not rivals,lol
John was so revered several Gnostic groups, notably the Mandaeans, split off from early emergent Christianity due to putting him above Jesus or rejecting Jesus entirely in favour of John the Baptist.
Likewise the Early Church had plenty of arguements over how figures like John and Paul fit together with Jesus.
It's an unorthodox reference (pardon the pun), but not an unfounded one
I'd be interested in these sources, since I only know the classical biblical narrative where both Jesus and John respect each other and one clearly is subordinate to the other
Biblical argument: Then why didn't John follow Jesus?
Historical argument (assuming the two figures in question were historical, which I'm inclined to believe they were): these two apocalypticists would have been competing for the same audience
@@JakalTalk Rival would be too hostile a word, but the Mandaean religion of south Iraq (one of the oldest and bigger minor world religions. Not as big as majority ones Christianity, Islam, Buddhism but still notable like Yazidi or Druze) share quite a lot of features and come from the same time, but put John on top instead.
There are parallels in smaller Gnostic movements too.
Its a bit like how, well have you heard the phrase "It was Paul's religion, not Jesus'"? In their own lifetimes figures like John and Paul had their own distincr followings, which had their own split offs outside of Christianity (inside in different Gnostic sects) exactly due the very large but debated religious influence and role.
I cant quote things off the top of my head, but Mandaeism put John as THE prophet and messiah, rather than the mainstream Christian view as a precursor.
Islam likewise has a different relationship with John, placing him and Jesus as some of many previous prophets. Druze and Baha'i and others have a similar equal view of them.
The channel probably should have clarified their parallel to Oak v Holly Kings and Green Knight v Gawain and how all this would fit together.
@ There's a lot of gnostic thought and early church debate around exactly that.
Early Christianity didnt appear out of nowhere or on its own, and John the Baptist and Paul have in some cases been presented as THE enlightened figures instead due to their historic followings (before Christianity cemented as part of the Roman Empire and its culture and its governmental and military apparatus)
Tried to give you the chance to have this explained perfectly lol but you didn't understand
3:17 OP - it’s pronounced “Bell-tane” (Scottish local here) 2 syllables ☺️
The name of this channel is IrishMyths. Pronouncing it the Irish way (or the closest approximation a yank can muster...in the Munster dialect) www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/Bealtaine
💧🔥🌬🇮🇪
Nemorensis
Did. It make it 30 seconds before you loudly announced you were not familiar with the source material.
how so?
Care to elaborate? If you actually explained your argument I could engage with it.
Jesus and John the Baptist weren't rivals...
I've responded to this same comment multiple times (go see my responses if you're interested) so I'm going to try a different approach:
Certain Christian dogmas seem to forbid Jesus and John from being rivals because Jesus has to be seen as superior/John subservient, the latter having "paved the way," so to speak, for Jesus’s arrival-or so the dogma goes.
But John never becomes a follower of Jesus.
And even assuming Jesus’s superiority, and John’s acknowledgement of it, that doesn't mean there wasn't a rivalry. Both apocalypticists were preaching and gaining followers in the same area at the same time. Hence, they were rivals.
Think of it this way: I can play basketball against LeBron James while acknowledging he’s the greatest and that I am certainly going to lose to him-that doesn't make him any less of a rival while we're on the court. You could say I'm not a "serious rival,” but alas, we can still employ the term "rival"
Who gives a f?
Once again there is no hard evidence for john and jesus being rivals, and this reeks of edge lord militant atheist operations 😅😅😅
Why on earth would you list Jesus and John as rivals, have you not read the Gospels? Let alone as derivatives from some neopagan myths. Is your knowledge of Christianity entirely from non-Christian sources?
Why? Because historically (assuming both Jesus and John the Baptist were historical-I’m inclined to believe they were), these two apocalypticists would have been competing for the same audience.
But if you're inclined to only believe "Christian" sources, here's one for ya:
"It is evident from certain scriptures that the prophet John the Baptist, was in competition. Who was his rival? (Remember what is always the right answer to every Sunday School question?) Well, it was Jesus! John the Baptist was an early competitor with Jesus." source: www.cathedralatl.org/sermons/jesus-and-john-christmas-and-competition/
@irishmyths The sermon from a random Episcopal Church is not a scholarly source, be real. The gospels themself clearly state that John the Baptist was subserviant to Jesus. Whenever crouds spoke too highly of John, he was quick to say how Jesus was superior to him. (John 1:27) There was only competition in the people's eyes. Furthermore, Jesus is not the "successor" of John as you stated, this is a fundimental misreading of the Gospels. How did you come to these conclusions
If you knew anything about Early Christianity and Gnosticism, you would know that within these circles the two historical figures did compete for dominance. Mandaeism , the only living Gnostic religion still truly alive (and not just some new religion), reveres John the Baptist as being the Messiah and not Jesus Christ.
@drestonjclaw2839 why should the ideas of gnostic heretics matter