I like that everyone involved made their own decisions. Nobody tried to pass the buck or call up the chain of command. In their situation, better to ask forgiveness than permission.
Love this video. As a controller, I had an F16 pilot help me out once with a way outside the box operation. Higher risk than normal, but we knew that and accepted it. It was one of those that management’s “official stance” was “don’t do that again”. But my direct managers unofficial response was “that was awesome, never seen anything like that..” We’re all on the same team out there. Cheers Mover.
Had this so many times with the KC-10 coming out of Afghanistan when the carrier was sitting down there, the Hornets we were escorting telling us the carrier was having bad weather and asking us if we had any extra gas, ended up over the boat with a bunch of fighters coming up, got in comms with a 2nd KC-10 coming in country and had the CAOC bring them in, landed after around 12 hours and had a grateful message left in the squadron from the boat.
I love how bison 21 stayed in the area while venom was going into Syracuse. I mean great job keeping a close contact with him in case he needed to refill and had to miss on the landing good teamwork everybody.
Retired USAF air traffic controller here. Working in bound fighters that were min fuel was an every day occurrence at your average fighter base. My first ATC assignment was Hill AFB, UTAH, from 1981 to 1984. Hill was the first USAF base to have the F16 and by 1981 we had two operational squadrons and two RTU squadrons training not only our pilots, but also international pilots from the countries that were buying F16's at the time. It was an extremely busy airport, with over 165K operations per year on a single runway so things could get sporty in a hurry. I also had the pleasure of spending 4 years at Holloman AFB from 89 to 93. We had two full wings assigned, with 4 squadrons of AT38's and and 3 squadrons of F15's. It was a highly complex ATC environment with 3 runways, and all of them crossed, and all of them were in use. Again, min fuel aircraft were a daily occurrence. When a pilot declared min fuel it meant they could take no undue delay upon reaching their destination. To us that meant they could only accept one missed approach, go around or be directed to exit the pattern and re-enter initial. It wasn't uncommon to see 15 to 20 jets working the VFR pattern throughout the day, so you really had to have your stuff together. At the time Holloman was I believe the second or third busiest control tower in the USAF, with over 250k operations per year. I found the situation in the video interesting, but IMHO it was high risk, low reward. Based on the position of the aircraft (Venom) he appeared to be closer to Syracuse than to the tankers. That being said I'm not sure how accurate the positions of the aircraft actually were, and not knowing the traffic picture at SYR, I can't say if Venom would have potentially been delayed once he was near the airport. I do agree the controller did a good job in coming up with an out of the box solution to prevent the situation developing into an emergency. and it was pure luck to have a flight a 2 tankers in a position to render assistance in this case.
I also wonder what conditions were at the airport. If the visibility was bad and/or there were crosswinds or something, where the potential for go-arounds was higher than normal, I could see hitting the tanker and having more gas to work with being a more attractive option. The controller did give the pilot the option for either refueling or a direct path to the runway, and unless the audio was edited it sounded like the pilot picked the tanker with zero hesitation.
Another comment posted a link to the original video of the radar at an awards ceremony. One of the controllers on stage mentioned they had 15 minutes of fuel and it was 15 minutes to Syracuse. So maybe it was tighter than it was made it to be here.
@@major__kong I would think it was 15 minutes of fuel and 15 MILES to the airport. At 360 knots you're covering 6 miles per minute, so that would have put the Viper about 90 miles from Syracuse.
From the text from the 2019-archie-league-medal-of-safety-award-winners page, looks like it was indeed emergency fuel where the f16 stated to a previous controller they are is 15 mins eta to Syracuse with 15 min of fuel. Weather at Syracuse was apparently marginal, would that have changed the calculus to where reward outweight the risks?
The controller actually won an “Archie award” that is given out to controllers for outstanding saves like this every year. This is the video from our yearly conference where they received it, it has the actual radar replay of this situation. ua-cam.com/video/haDyDmQAb8U/v-deo.htmlsi=S54HcVKz_yrwIeDU
That was cool. Gave some additional details that lean into why they chose to go the refuel route rather than straight in and land. The pilot knew he was probably going to land at emergency fuel levels already (if I heard him right) and one more thing going wrong could have spelled disaster and the weather certainly was not helping.
Thanks for that link! It was heart-felt and so pleasing to see and be able to tell those folks what a great job that was! Too bad more people haven't seen it! ATC is really something else, you guys rock!
That's awesome, love to see that! I live between KROC and KBUF. When I heard the set up, I thought with even 600# he could get enough altitude to dead stick into KROC or KSYR. If push got to shove, we also have the 280 mile long runway through the center of the state. LOL US 90, or the NYS Thruway. Glad plan_A worked!! 8) --bfg
I bet the pilot of the viper became friends with all those onboard the tankers! Cracking story, thank you gentlemen If they could ever reconnect that is
Listening to the min fuel F-16 and his punctuated reply, I suspect he was at or near emergency fuel but didn't want hose himself with paperwork and commanders getting more involved. I'm with Mover, unless it's bad weather or something where I suspect a Go-Around is likely, I probably just accept the Min fuel situation. I mean, credit to the pilot for not backing himself into a corner, but then again if something went wrong with the intercept, he's landing in a state somewhere between a glider and a lawn dart, so he may have actually backed himself into a corner more and got lucky. Glad nobody was hurt though and that controller did a shit-hot job.
It was bad weather and the video someone linked above proves it. ua-cam.com/video/haDyDmQAb8U/v-deo.html I'd much rather get some gas in the air than try to shoot an approach in bad weather where I know I'm emergency fuel as soon as I miss. That also explains why a tanker stuck with him until he was on the ground. They weren't just holding his hand. The conditions were worse than forecast.
Great video, I really appreciate the explanations of the factors involved. It appears that they did have one other ace in the hole. The second tanker was nearby in case there was an issue with the first one. Of course that wouldn't have helped if the F-16 had not been able to receive fuel.
I can already hear the wing commander having a heart attack hearing thus happened without a risk management and avoidance sheet being filled out before 😂
Older block F-16 EPU (Emergency Power Unit) is a HYDRAZINE powered and requires a special hazards material emergency team response. Turning on EPU in a civilian airport is worth 50 pages of forms! The way I heard Viper was he was close or likely to have to turn on EPU, of course there will be forms to be filled out on why he was so low be it leak/mechanical/weather related or bad calculations etc but those forms were locked in.
When everything goes to hell it’s always great to have someone think outside the box and throw an idea out that may or may not work. But you have to be willing to think and say yes or no. Not just automatically say no.
So what happened to Booger and CRraazy? The tankers RTB'd after without mention of tanking them. Also, how much fuel do you think the Viper took? Is it 2K lbs/min transfer rate? So would you take 4 to 5 thousand on or is that overkill?
Great video. I just have a few questions.. 1. When declaring a minimum fuel situation. Is that at the time of the declaration, or at the time of expected landing? I would assume at the time of declaration but maybe i'm wrong. How would the pilot know how much fuel he would have left at landing. Especially when being diverted to an unfamiliar landing place. The fighter jets probably have a warning light just like my truck. Just a hunch, but Venom has most likely refueled from tankers more often than landing at SYR on min fuel. Go with what you know and have been trained to do. 2. IS the ATC in this situation under legal risk? He literally gave both parties the option. It was up to both of them and he didn't present the situation in a dire manner. Straight up facts. They both said yes. 3. For the pilots out there... why declare fuel on board in pounds? Why not time till out of fuel? Are air traffic controllers supposed to translate pounds of fuel into time for every plane? Anyway... very cool insight from both of you. Subscribed.
1. You're supposed to land with a certain amount of reserve fuel. That fuel can be used in case something goes wrong, like having to go around when landing. Pilots have to calculate how much fuel they spend getting there and thus how much they will have left when they arrive. Modern (computerized) jets will help with parts of that calculation, though. Next time you hear that pilots have to be good at math, this is one those reasons. That said, for the most part, approximate numbers is good enough - that's part of why pilots operate with safety margins. 2. Doesn't really matter - if he perceives he might be at risk for out of the box thinking, it wouldn't happen. That's a big part of why good safety culture doesn't assign blame. 3. There are two answers here. One is that it is recorded - we just listened to the recording - which is useful for any subsequent investigation. Another is that the pilot - especially in a stressful situation - may forget that the controllers may not even be pilots, and even if they are may not know the specifics (like fuel mileage) of their plane. (This reminds me of "lost vacuum" stories.)
Additional context: Apparently the Viper was diverting to Syracuse after holding for bad weather at it's initial destination. Seems like perhaps his fuel state was on the low end of minimum... ua-cam.com/video/haDyDmQAb8U/v-deo.htmlsi=EnrwsdycioAtkRnK
Would you be able to cover the accident of the KC 46 Pegasus air incident recently out off the coast of California? I believe the plane was from McConnell. Thanks
I think this is kind of a metaphor for how Russia conducts combat versus how NATO does it. The Russians would still be standing by waiting for some general to tell them to hit the tanker
@@CWLemoine was the AAR done in AR609, or was it done when they were in the National Airspace System? Hard to tell from the graphics, but running intercepts (including AAR) is Huntress' "Bread & Butter".
AR609 is released by center. I have never been switched to Huntress or any other ADS controller while refueling in any AR route. They run intercepts, yes, but there would be no reason to use them unless you were already talking to them on an alert mission.
As the video played out I was wondering why the tanker followed Venom to SYR. Not apparent in the video obviously was how Venom found himself in a min fuel situation. Unforeseen adverse winds one reason, but that should have been fixed with the fuel. Wondered if perhaps Venom had an excessive fuel consumption problem. Leak, fuel control unit failing, for example. Just curious. Great it all worked out. As you both made clear. It ain’t as easy as it seems. BZ.
Just what tankers do. If an aircraft has a problem with fuel and the tanker is involved they always offer to "drag" them back if necessary. So that's why. They went with him in case there was an issue and they needed to drag him to the airfield.
There's another comment here that posted a link to an awards ceremony for the controllers, and the F-16 pilot made a thank you video explaining what happened.
Flight Follower's video is misleading. First, those tankers were already right between Venom 01 and Syracuse and second, Syracuse was between those tankers and Niagara.
@@CWLemoine Disregard - I saw the video with the same ATC guy you posted about the flame out/damaged engine in Tampa and thought it was the same video based on the intro and guy again just without the HUD video
Question, how does this work on the Uncle Sam end, is there a boat load of paperwork for refuelling an aircraft that wasn't part of the initial plan? Also does Venom 1 face any consequences for getting into this situation in the first place or does it just get wiped away with "shit happens and no ones hurt". Cheers
Really educational to strip this down to the bone. Loved it. Do hope new guests don’t use dailup modems anymore. It gives me Gonky vibes all over again 😅
@@CWLemoine From the text from the 2019-archie-league-medal-of-safety-award-winners page, looks like it was indeed emergency fuel where the f16 stated to a previous controller they are is 15 mins eta to Syracuse with 15 min of fuel. Weather at Syracuse was apparently marginal, would that have changed the calculus to where reward outweighs the risks? I'm not a pilot and would love to know what the f16 would do in the worst case of a failed refuel vs running out of fuel next to the airport with weather below minimum.
The 'issue' that I have, is that many times people think: 'Awww, well, I can just go meet the tanker, hook-up, get my gas, then go on forever (so to speak)'. One may be a good pilot -- one may be a GREAT pilot etc., but are people thinking that this is an easy thing to do? Maybe the winds aren't correct? Maybe it takes you an extra 30 seconds to make the connection etc. Stress might make it harder or take longer to connect. Maybe you've linked up one billion times YESTERDAY, who's to say that things will go the same or even better? It is NOT AUTOMATIC! People need to keep that in mind as well. Things are different.
The are things you can do in post if you have the right tools and know how to use them. I use Da Vinci Resolve, and it has a pretty good audio editor. There's are many instructional videos on the interwebs about how to clean up common audio issues. Of course, it's better to start with a good mic.
It isn't the audio codec. It's the mic itself. Could be hardware quality, placement. The average ear bud, cell phone, built-in mic is good enough for phone calls but not much else.
WSJ: "U.S.-Made F-16 Crashed in Ukraine" Hahaha, there are 2 versions of what happened. Friendly fire from the Patriot system on the day of the strikes on Ukraine. Or the fighter was destroyed by a strike on the airfield where there had been a PR photo shoot before.
WHY did he get part way to his destination and NOT have a fuel stop before this ... major oversight on the f-16 pilots the controller didnt offer it the Bison did they told the controller they were there and able to refuel him this should never have happened in the first place redirect or not ...
Find the comment with the link to the awards ceremony for the controllers. The F-16 pilot sent a thank you video explaining what happened. Weather worsened unexpectedly towards the end of the flight.
@@major__kong THAT should have been part of the opening explanation of WHY the plane was in that situation ... because the story started in the middle and NOT at the start we miss the most important information ... and as for the pilot why was his divert airport reserve fuel NOT enough to actually get to his divert airport ... that is an FAA regulation as I recal military or not ... since it was NOT a military jaunt yes it is the Pilot's JOB to ensure he has the correct load of fuel on board ...as he obviously did NOT it is Pilot error ... and the pilot's direct fault for putting himself the ta payers plane and people on the ground at risk yes it is a serious matter ... this is why American pilots are responsible for more friendly fie incidents in combat theaters ... they DO NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their actions ... this is also why I would never accept american overwatch support ... they have no discipline ... yes I am a retired CAF member ... who worked with yak units for6 years solid ... and NEVER again
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Great video
I like that everyone involved made their own decisions. Nobody tried to pass the buck or call up the chain of command. In their situation, better to ask forgiveness than permission.
I love it when a plan comes together.
Love this video. As a controller, I had an F16 pilot help me out once with a way outside the box operation. Higher risk than normal, but we knew that and accepted it. It was one of those that management’s “official stance” was “don’t do that again”. But my direct managers unofficial response was “that was awesome, never seen anything like that..” We’re all on the same team out there. Cheers Mover.
You can't just say "I had this super cool experience once" and leave it at that..
@@RedTail1-1 I work for the government… that’s all you get online! ;)
@@GTthebusinessbest response
@@GTthebusiness
If you work for the government you enjoy all kinds of protections.
Spill the beans!
Was her name Penny Benjamin?
Had this so many times with the KC-10 coming out of Afghanistan when the carrier was sitting down there, the Hornets we were escorting telling us the carrier was having bad weather and asking us if we had any extra gas, ended up over the boat with a bunch of fighters coming up, got in comms with a 2nd KC-10 coming in country and had the CAOC bring them in, landed after around 12 hours and had a grateful message left in the squadron from the boat.
I just watched one of the last KC-10’s landing at the boneyard the other day on ADSB. End of an era…
I love how bison 21 stayed in the area while venom was going into Syracuse. I mean great job keeping a close contact with him in case he needed to refill and had to miss on the landing good teamwork everybody.
That was my biggest thought too. I wonder if weather was bad and the other fighters cancelled too.
The teamwork in this incident is truly impressive. No shuck-and-jive, just professionals gettin' after it.
It would be great to have this Viper pilot and/or the refueling crew on your show for an interview.
Retired USAF air traffic controller here. Working in bound fighters that were min fuel was an every day occurrence at your average fighter base. My first ATC assignment was Hill AFB, UTAH, from 1981 to 1984. Hill was the first USAF base to have the F16 and by 1981 we had two operational squadrons and two RTU squadrons training not only our pilots, but also international pilots from the countries that were buying F16's at the time. It was an extremely busy airport, with over 165K operations per year on a single runway so things could get sporty in a hurry. I also had the pleasure of spending 4 years at Holloman AFB from 89 to 93. We had two full wings assigned, with 4 squadrons of AT38's and and 3 squadrons of F15's. It was a highly complex ATC environment with 3 runways, and all of them crossed, and all of them were in use. Again, min fuel aircraft were a daily occurrence. When a pilot declared min fuel it meant they could take no undue delay upon reaching their destination. To us that meant they could only accept one missed approach, go around or be directed to exit the pattern and re-enter initial. It wasn't uncommon to see 15 to 20 jets working the VFR pattern throughout the day, so you really had to have your stuff together. At the time Holloman was I believe the second or third busiest control tower in the USAF, with over 250k operations per year.
I found the situation in the video interesting, but IMHO it was high risk, low reward. Based on the position of the aircraft (Venom) he appeared to be closer to Syracuse than to the tankers. That being said I'm not sure how accurate the positions of the aircraft actually were, and not knowing the traffic picture at SYR, I can't say if Venom would have potentially been delayed once he was near the airport. I do agree the controller did a good job in coming up with an out of the box solution to prevent the situation developing into an emergency. and it was pure luck to have a flight a 2 tankers in a position to render assistance in this case.
I also wonder what conditions were at the airport. If the visibility was bad and/or there were crosswinds or something, where the potential for go-arounds was higher than normal, I could see hitting the tanker and having more gas to work with being a more attractive option.
The controller did give the pilot the option for either refueling or a direct path to the runway, and unless the audio was edited it sounded like the pilot picked the tanker with zero hesitation.
Another comment posted a link to the original video of the radar at an awards ceremony. One of the controllers on stage mentioned they had 15 minutes of fuel and it was 15 minutes to Syracuse. So maybe it was tighter than it was made it to be here.
@@major__kong I would think it was 15 minutes of fuel and 15 MILES to the airport. At 360 knots you're covering 6 miles per minute, so that would have
put the Viper about 90 miles from Syracuse.
From the text from the 2019-archie-league-medal-of-safety-award-winners page, looks like it was indeed emergency fuel where the f16 stated to a previous controller they are is 15 mins eta to Syracuse with 15 min of fuel. Weather at Syracuse was apparently marginal, would that have changed the calculus to where reward outweight the risks?
Loved the absolute responses, from Venom, from Bison, and the ATC basically letting the guys in the air do the flying. Thanks Mover and Rocket!
Another great episode. WE always forget about the ATC guys and girls so more from Rocket please.
Mover, I'm loving these segments with Rocket. Thanks for making this happen!
Great to see all of the players come together on this. I'm sure there was one very happy Viper pilot.
The controller actually won an “Archie award” that is given out to controllers for outstanding saves like this every year. This is the video from our yearly conference where they received it, it has the actual radar replay of this situation.
ua-cam.com/video/haDyDmQAb8U/v-deo.htmlsi=S54HcVKz_yrwIeDU
That was cool. Gave some additional details that lean into why they chose to go the refuel route rather than straight in and land. The pilot knew he was probably going to land at emergency fuel levels already (if I heard him right) and one more thing going wrong could have spelled disaster and the weather certainly was not helping.
Thanks for that link! It was heart-felt and so pleasing to see and be able to tell those folks what a great job that was! Too bad more people haven't seen it! ATC is really something else, you guys rock!
Rocket is a rock-star guest!
100% an expert talking about his expertise
Outstanding video! I really like hearing this controller’s commentary!
What an awesome guest to have
Would love to see you discuss on next week’s show the recent Eagle that had to take the cables twice, with both being failures.
Great Thinking on behalf of this Controller . My Salute to you Sir for not wasting any time to Assist and Expedite.
Great episode Move .
This was awesome on the fly training for all involved. No better substitute than real world training.
Mover: Thanks for deciphering the jargon for us non pilots. Love your channel.
Mover. Great idea having Richard Smith with you. Having a pilot and a controller break this down was brilliant.
That's awesome, love to see that! I live between KROC and KBUF. When I heard the set up, I thought with even 600# he could get enough altitude to dead stick into KROC or KSYR. If push got to shove, we also have the 280 mile long runway through the center of the state. LOL US 90, or the NYS Thruway. Glad plan_A worked!! 8) --bfg
As a former controller a great job by all. Thank you for this episode
As a Navy veteran, I can relate because all ships in an emergency area respond to help those in the situation.
I bet the pilot of the viper became friends with all those onboard the tankers! Cracking story, thank you gentlemen
If they could ever reconnect that is
Great video. The lessons apply to many areas of life and professional situations!
Listening to the min fuel F-16 and his punctuated reply, I suspect he was at or near emergency fuel but didn't want hose himself with paperwork and commanders getting more involved. I'm with Mover, unless it's bad weather or something where I suspect a Go-Around is likely, I probably just accept the Min fuel situation. I mean, credit to the pilot for not backing himself into a corner, but then again if something went wrong with the intercept, he's landing in a state somewhere between a glider and a lawn dart, so he may have actually backed himself into a corner more and got lucky. Glad nobody was hurt though and that controller did a shit-hot job.
It was bad weather and the video someone linked above proves it.
ua-cam.com/video/haDyDmQAb8U/v-deo.html
I'd much rather get some gas in the air than try to shoot an approach in bad weather where I know I'm emergency fuel as soon as I miss. That also explains why a tanker stuck with him until he was on the ground. They weren't just holding his hand. The conditions were worse than forecast.
Great video, I really appreciate the explanations of the factors involved. It appears that they did have one other ace in the hole. The second tanker was nearby in case there was an issue with the first one. Of course that wouldn't have helped if the F-16 had not been able to receive fuel.
I can already hear the wing commander having a heart attack hearing thus happened without a risk management and avoidance sheet being filled out before 😂
These breakdowns are awesome. I bet going for a beer with Rocket would be awesome
Older block F-16 EPU (Emergency Power Unit) is a HYDRAZINE powered and requires a special hazards material emergency team response.
Turning on EPU in a civilian airport is worth 50 pages of forms!
The way I heard Viper was he was close or likely to have to turn on EPU, of course there will be forms to be filled out on why he was so low be it leak/mechanical/weather related or bad calculations etc but those forms were locked in.
Good video about some outstanding professionals.
Luck is not a planning factor. However , when it’s on your side, take advantage of it!
Imagine the can of worms Venom 01 would have opened if his credit card had been declined.
As long as it doesn't decline when he buys their beer.
I really like these videos with Rocket!
What a video thanks for sharing
When everything goes to hell it’s always great to have someone think outside the box and throw an idea out that may or may not work. But you have to be willing to think and say yes or no. Not just automatically say no.
So what happened to Booger and CRraazy? The tankers RTB'd after without mention of tanking them.
Also, how much fuel do you think the Viper took? Is it 2K lbs/min transfer rate? So would you take 4 to 5 thousand on or is that overkill?
True to the Airman's creed.
Pretty sure this involved our Vipers out of Burlington VT. Would have been either block 25's or 30's. Booger was one of our Viper Drivers.
Great video. I just have a few questions..
1. When declaring a minimum fuel situation. Is that at the time of the declaration, or at the time of expected landing? I would assume at the time of declaration but maybe i'm wrong. How would the pilot know how much fuel he would have left at landing. Especially when being diverted to an unfamiliar landing place. The fighter jets probably have a warning light just like my truck. Just a hunch, but Venom has most likely refueled from tankers more often than landing at SYR on min fuel. Go with what you know and have been trained to do.
2. IS the ATC in this situation under legal risk? He literally gave both parties the option. It was up to both of them and he didn't present the situation in a dire manner. Straight up facts. They both said yes.
3. For the pilots out there... why declare fuel on board in pounds? Why not time till out of fuel? Are air traffic controllers supposed to translate pounds of fuel into time for every plane?
Anyway... very cool insight from both of you. Subscribed.
1. You're supposed to land with a certain amount of reserve fuel. That fuel can be used in case something goes wrong, like having to go around when landing. Pilots have to calculate how much fuel they spend getting there and thus how much they will have left when they arrive. Modern (computerized) jets will help with parts of that calculation, though. Next time you hear that pilots have to be good at math, this is one those reasons. That said, for the most part, approximate numbers is good enough - that's part of why pilots operate with safety margins.
2. Doesn't really matter - if he perceives he might be at risk for out of the box thinking, it wouldn't happen. That's a big part of why good safety culture doesn't assign blame.
3. There are two answers here. One is that it is recorded - we just listened to the recording - which is useful for any subsequent investigation. Another is that the pilot - especially in a stressful situation - may forget that the controllers may not even be pilots, and even if they are may not know the specifics (like fuel mileage) of their plane. (This reminds me of "lost vacuum" stories.)
Train as you fight fight as you train
Great Spot-On Work All Around!
Additional context: Apparently the Viper was diverting to Syracuse after holding for bad weather at it's initial destination. Seems like perhaps his fuel state was on the low end of minimum...
ua-cam.com/video/haDyDmQAb8U/v-deo.htmlsi=EnrwsdycioAtkRnK
Would you be able to cover the accident of the KC 46 Pegasus air incident recently out off the coast of California? I believe the plane was from McConnell.
Thanks
Is that the one where the Eagle had to take the cables 2x?
Does anyone know what happened to the plan with the original receivers? The tankers seemed to return to Niagra with no further mention of them.
I’m wondering if weather was bad too. Would explain why 21 waited till Venom was safely wheels down.
Very cool. I wonder if that f16 was patrolling a TFR.
I was hoping you'd get around to this one.
Yay. I'm helping haha I sent this in via facebook
My luck I would have left my fleet card in my other g-suite.
Some people actually memorize their card numbers..
Any chance of doing a video on the Skyraider?
Algorithmic engagement comment.
Go team!
I think this is kind of a metaphor for how Russia conducts combat versus how NATO does it.
The Russians would still be standing by waiting for some general to tell them to hit the tanker
Thats cool asf!!!
I am surprised that they didn't turn it over to Huntress to run the intercept.
Usually center controls the air refueling tracks.
@@CWLemoine was the AAR done in AR609, or was it done when they were in the National Airspace System? Hard to tell from the graphics, but running intercepts (including AAR) is Huntress' "Bread & Butter".
AR609 is released by center. I have never been switched to Huntress or any other ADS controller while refueling in any AR route. They run intercepts, yes, but there would be no reason to use them unless you were already talking to them on an alert mission.
Why didn't he just land? Unless the map is wrong, the airport is closer than the refueling and the airport is the more reliable option, too.
As the video played out I was wondering why the tanker followed Venom to SYR. Not apparent in the video obviously was how Venom found himself in a min fuel situation. Unforeseen adverse winds one reason, but that should have been fixed with the fuel. Wondered if perhaps Venom had an excessive fuel consumption problem. Leak, fuel control unit failing, for example. Just curious. Great it all worked out. As you both made clear. It ain’t as easy as it seems. BZ.
Just what tankers do. If an aircraft has a problem with fuel and the tanker is involved they always offer to "drag" them back if necessary. So that's why. They went with him in case there was an issue and they needed to drag him to the airfield.
There's another comment here that posted a link to an awards ceremony for the controllers, and the F-16 pilot made a thank you video explaining what happened.
Flight Follower's video is misleading. First, those tankers were already right between Venom 01 and Syracuse and second, Syracuse was between those tankers and Niagara.
Bump!
What?
@@CWLemoine Disregard - I saw the video with the same ATC guy you posted about the flame out/damaged engine in Tampa and thought it was the same video based on the intro and guy again just without the HUD video
Unregarded!
Question, how does this work on the Uncle Sam end, is there a boat load of paperwork for refuelling an aircraft that wasn't part of the initial plan? Also does Venom 1 face any consequences for getting into this situation in the first place or does it just get wiped away with "shit happens and no ones hurt". Cheers
ANG……………..usually old heads, and just do it.
NKAWTG...N!!
Really educational to strip this down to the bone. Loved it.
Do hope new guests don’t use dailup modems anymore. It gives me Gonky vibes all over again 😅
You are assuming he was actually just min fuel. The situation may have actually been worse than he admitted
That would make going to the tanker a worse idea imho unless the alternate was at mins.
@@CWLemoine From the text from the 2019-archie-league-medal-of-safety-award-winners page, looks like it was indeed emergency fuel where the f16 stated to a previous controller they are is 15 mins eta to Syracuse with 15 min of fuel. Weather at Syracuse was apparently marginal, would that have changed the calculus to where reward outweighs the risks? I'm not a pilot and would love to know what the f16 would do in the worst case of a failed refuel vs running out of fuel next to the airport with weather below minimum.
The 'issue' that I have, is that many times people think: 'Awww, well, I can just go meet the tanker, hook-up, get my gas, then go on forever (so to speak)'. One may be a good pilot -- one may be a GREAT pilot etc., but are people thinking that this is an easy thing to do? Maybe the winds aren't correct? Maybe it takes you an extra 30 seconds to make the connection etc. Stress might make it harder or take longer to connect. Maybe you've linked up one billion times YESTERDAY, who's to say that things will go the same or even better? It is NOT AUTOMATIC! People need to keep that in mind as well. Things are different.
It 100% feels like F-16 guy was like, "heck yeah, free AAR practice and I get to fly a little longer"
👍👍o7
Is it reasonable for an aircraft conducting routine training to find itself at minimum fuel? How does that happen?
He diverted due to weather at his planned destination.
I really like the viewpoint of a controller, great addition to the channel. However, Richard Smith needs a better microphone.
Not everyone has a professional setup. We work with what we have and try to make the best of it.
The are things you can do in post if you have the right tools and know how to use them. I use Da Vinci Resolve, and it has a pretty good audio editor. There's are many instructional videos on the interwebs about how to clean up common audio issues. Of course, it's better to start with a good mic.
Just announced Ukraine lost its first F-16. WSJ says a crash. My sources say a Mig-31 assisted crash
Can you please help the guest use a better audio codec? Compression is so bad I can barely understand him.
Maybe record locally and send the uncompressed audio to you for editing.
No.
It isn't the audio codec. It's the mic itself. Could be hardware quality, placement. The average ear bud, cell phone, built-in mic is good enough for phone calls but not much else.
WSJ: "U.S.-Made F-16 Crashed in Ukraine"
Hahaha, there are 2 versions of what happened. Friendly fire from the Patriot system on the day of the strikes on Ukraine. Or the fighter was destroyed by a strike on the airfield where there had been a PR photo shoot before.
WHY did he get part way to his destination and NOT have a fuel stop before this ... major oversight on the f-16 pilots
the controller didnt offer it the Bison did they told the controller they were there and able to refuel him
this should never have happened in the first place redirect or not ...
Find the comment with the link to the awards ceremony for the controllers. The F-16 pilot sent a thank you video explaining what happened. Weather worsened unexpectedly towards the end of the flight.
@@major__kong THAT should have been part of the opening explanation of WHY the plane was in that situation ... because the story started in the middle and NOT at the start we miss the most important information ... and as for the pilot why was his divert airport reserve fuel NOT enough to actually get to his divert airport ... that is an FAA regulation as I recal military or not ... since it was NOT a military jaunt
yes it is the Pilot's JOB to ensure he has the correct load of fuel on board ...as he obviously did NOT it is Pilot error ... and the pilot's direct fault for putting himself the ta payers plane and people on the ground at risk
yes it is a serious matter ... this is why American pilots are responsible for more friendly fie incidents in combat theaters ... they DO NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their actions ... this is also why I would never accept american overwatch support ... they have no discipline ... yes I am a retired CAF member ... who worked with yak units for6 years solid ... and NEVER again
Awesome job! That was great coordination with all players. 🫡🇺🇸