Monday Monologue: Legacy Brand Marketing Hype.
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- I've seen this in other markets and I feel like some of these legacy audio brands are selling some of their products at inflated price points simply on the brand's historical value. It's hard to know looking at online reviews what is real and what is hype!
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“They sounded like ass”what a quote; I really like your channel. You tell it the way it is and don’t hold back. Thank you.
Yup, big conglomerate companies like to ride “tried & true” brand names until they have poisoned that brand and exhausted any residual positive sentiments of that moniker. Case in point: Latest use of “Nakamichi Dragon” product name.
I always wondered about the Ilford box behind you. I have a couple of wide field Ektars from the 50s that I use today.
You might be happy with the MoFi Source Point 8 or Source Point 10 speaker models. Solid engineering from acclaimed speaker designer Andrew Jones. That said, the crossover is designed well, but would definitely benefit from higher quality crossover components.
Those particular JBL speakers are 100% living off the rep of their history. They do make some really good speakers but they are really expensive and huge. And of course their bread and butter are in the sound reinforcement and commercial spaces. Their pro lines and pro drivers are top notch performers *for their intended purpose* but not for general purpose hi Fi. McIntosh was a big deal in the pro sound world once upon a time. They straddled both home and pro (and even scientific) amplification worlds but eventually settled on home audio. They are clearly living on their past glory these days.
Also glad to hear you had a similar experience with those particular JBLs. I can’t imagine being happy with them unless you happen to like that voice and/or just don’t have much experience listening to nice speakers. I’ve always loved coaxial speakers. Well, at least KEFs, those are the only ones I’ve spent time with. Never got around to listening to Tannoy. Speaking of which, that is another company living off the brand’s history. Your Fyne speakers are designed and made by the folks left behind when Tannoy left Scotland. They’re the ones that actually care about sound quality!
Luv you calling JBL out.! I would have thought those woulda been Really Nice for $3K.!! What a Shame... Plastic Laminate? Wow.. Like I said I have like six different JBL models, but they're All At Least 44 years old... The cabinets are Real Walnut veneer with old Hi Quality drivers..
It's refreshing to see a honest true opinion . Most others youtube always hype up stuff
Sadly, many once respected audio companies were sold off to some large off-shore holding companies that only care about using the respected brand name to sell junk. I love recording music, but this happened to AKG and they don't even make their top end pencil condenser microphone anymore, (and nothing is made in Austria anymore) just a lot of cheap Bluetooth headphones and speakers. Buyer beware. I was fired up to buy some "end game" speakers for my living room. I was looking at the $5000 JBL L100 Classic MK II, but after your experience with the L82, I think I'll continue my search. Thank you for an honest review. Regarding the MoFi Sourcepoint 10, take this with a grain of salt but many reviewers thought it was "bright", however, the smaller Sourcepoint 8, which might better fit your space, is supposed to be more balanced in sound.
Back in the 70s, I drooled over "Acoustats." However, there was no way I could afford them, and besides, they were too tall to fit in my living-room.
i think you should try some wharfedale evo or diamond speakers next
I think this is a good lesson for many of us not to get hung up on brands and connect them to your ego. When I was a teenager I had JBL posters in my room. My DIY speaker had a JBL tweeter (Yep I was doing Mono, that's all I could afford). I think it is not an exaggeration to say that JBL is the brand that for a part got me in to audio. And I still love the vintage stuff. But that was a different era and JBL evolved (lets say). The shareholders are happy and that is all that counts. I am not blaming anybody. It is not nice though to see once great brands be squandered.
I’ve been into music all my life and I’m subscribed to around 50 channels like yours. This is one of the top that I watch. Keep up the good work.
I'm glad that you're reporting this. I'm doubly glad with the productive comments.
Today, I will be getting cables to make my new to me REL subwoofer working.
I think that I'm an idiot.
I have an SVS halfway up the line sub now.
I want my world to be transformed. Wish me luck.
I have IsoAcoustics Gaii's under my speakers and love them. Also have their platforms under my turntable and preamp.
I’ve got Klipsch Cornwall speakers…worth every penny.
Personally I didn’t care for the black and copper Klipsch speakers, just my ears opinion.
I agree with you Steph, the blue tooth stuff just isn’t worth listening to.
One thing about speakers is that personal preference plays a big part in determining what speakers you purchase.
Love the channel, thanks Stephanie 😊
Klipsch Heritage products are fantastic, I use the Forte II (two sets one flipped & set atop the other). And, they can be had used for reasonable money. What you say about personal preference is only partially correct, as many people have no idea what they are hearing.
I once encouraged Steph to audition some Cornwall speakers. She was reluctant, to say the least😊
I went thru the Klipsh Heritage line, buying and swapping bigger and better over several years. Got up to the Cornwalls and thought I had the best. - until I found a large beat up cabinet speaker at a yard sale for $5.
Brought it home and compared it to the Cornwalls - no contest that beat up old speaker was head and shoulders much better - an Altec Valencia, cabinet was rough but the 15" speaker and horn was perfect. Long story short. - build a second Valencia from parts, built new cabinets (woodworking is my other hobby) & cross overs. I'll never part with the Altecs!
This is a great channel!
It’s more no one can stand honesty anymore. Back in the day west coast(JBL) was described as bright……Advent etc East coast was described as warm. People like usually one or the other. Nothing wrong with either. JBL hasn’t changed. If you look at a measured response there’s 5db peak at 2K. Nothing wrong with your ears.
I think you and others have touched on it here.,back in the day 'those' companies were looking to become household names,.they genuinely put some effort into creating and making great products,.and then further down the line, after achieving what theyd set out to do,they just 'rinsed the arse out of the name',and started 'mugging off' the consumer,...there are some companies that are trying to establish themselves and so they create and offer 'decent' products...
After 30 years of building diY-speakers and buying lots of commercial speakers (harbeth, Focal, Audio Physic, Kef, B&W) I have found what I was looking for in my 5.20x 3.30 room: A well designed Full range, high efficiency, loudspeaker . There are lots of them, diY and commercial, good designs on UA-cam also, and don't forget to have a look at the OGY speakers please. Coupled to a SET valve amp of good design you will find your audio-heaven. Don't forget to invest your money in a good streamer/DAC combination, if you are not into vinyl. I can send you pictures of my set-up if you want to.
stephe@skunkiedesigns.com and yes I am into vinyl :)
I think the older JBLs sounded good for their time but speaker technology and engineering knowledge has advanced greatly since the 80s and 90s. I remember when paper tweeters were common and soft dome tweeters were only found in exotic high end speakers. Then when I got my Vaf DCXs in 2000, a lot was made of their D'appolito driver layout (MTM) and time aligned drivers, both of which are common speaker design elements now days. Perhaps these changes have made me biased but when I see newly made "classic" speakers, I assume that they won't sound very good based on their layout - wide front baffle, seemingly random driver placement and tone controls.
I think you would like the sound of the Dynaudio Evoke 20 or the Evoke 10. You can probably pick up either pre owned for ~$1700 or $1200 respectively. I have the 20’s and they sound great. They are just a little smaller than the Klipsch RP 600M’s. The 10’s are even smaller. The Dynaudios new are ~ $2300 and $1700 respectively as I recall. Keep up the good work!
Sometimes yes sometimes no . I think a lot of it is speaker markets more crowded then ever and it takes a lot more to stand out as above the rest . But there still some legacy companies that still make good products . Polk , Klipsch both still make some good affordable products and upper end products too . But also true once they sell the name all beta are off. The new owners may have no ambition to hold up the name and reputation. Like Klipsch when they sold and branched out to all the little none traditional audio those are not Klipsch designed products there just Klipsch branded products.
You are the second UA-camr I heard talking about the new JBL finish being not that great.
Hmm is this a new thing on the MKII I wonder?
Hey Steph, I just remembered something I saw at a HiFi show in Raleigh, NC in early August. I listened to the new Elac 3.0 DB63. I owned the Debut 6.2 and they were amazing for their size. The DB63 is a smaller bookshelf with truly amazing bass that cost about $475/pr. Listen to these somewhere if you can. I think you will be impressed.
And those are the right size!
Happens to a lot of brands...build the name and then milk it.....Klipsch and Cerwin-Vega , Polk are the real work hoarses for the average audio consumers. Elac are solid across their spectrums. I have some Tektons coming this week can't wait to give them a listen. Big buy.....i have the cerwin-vega la165 they easily compete with my Elac carina that are 4x the price and a very well regarded and reviewed speaker.
Tektons, really? Did you do your research and find out what kind of asshole that guy really is? I wouldn't give him a single red penny for anything he makes. Go and see what he did to Erin from Erin's Audio Corner if you want to know what you are dealing with.
It is good to see that the Fynes worked out.
It is interesting how many reviewers gave the JBLs good reviews. I would value your views more, any day
Yeah, they did influence my decision to try these, expecting there to be some "magic". I just didn't hear any.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Wel.. now you know which reviewers you can (or can not) trust 😉.
I pick up most of my speakers at thrift stores and garage/estate sales. the absolute worst speakers I had to throw in the dumpster were UTAH (who would think it). but, there are really good speakers to be found cheap. its much worse now to get a deal because of the internet. Its great to see you found some great speakers at a believable price.
Utah used to make excellent drivers, widely used in 1930's radios.
Saw the title of your monologue and thought of McIntosh instantly.
Ha!
Keep up the M.M. rants Stephe! They'relways interesting! I mentioned the old B&W DM10's to try. Also there are DM110's as well.
Hey what amps did ya build 'back in the early days'?
Monday jazz album:
SONNY ROLLINS - Ballads
Good episode. I look forward to hearing more about your new Fyne's once you get a few hours on them.
These were used/demo units with some time on them already. I don't expect them to change and I've got easily 10+ hours of listening so far. I doubt my view on them will change.
I definitely feel like that about McIntosh and Audio Research.
McIntosh amps are, indeed, excellent, but there are plenty of tube amps that are just as good, or can be modified to be so, that sell for a fraction of the price.
Hi, didn't mean to imply that McIntosh is garbage-just way overrated and over priced for what you get, I feel so ripped off when I look inside there preamps and see cheap caps, small transformers and plenty of available real estate. I have tried at least four of there preamp and always move on to something else like PrimaLuna and Icon Audio, better quality parts, point to point wiring, better sound for less.
Agreed on there amps but better value to be had eelsewhere.
@@juanvalentin3302 I was referring to their power amps. I really don't know anything about their preamps. I had a friend in the 1980s, who had one, along with a very good home-brew preamp and Fulton speakers. His system sounded fantastic. But yes, they're VERY over-priced, especially, today
You make a good point, but there are legacy brands who still make a quality product. Wharfedale and Kef are two examples. I have Wharfedales flagship, the Elysian 4, and they are truly high end speakers, beautifully built. But their budget ranges are also well built and great value.
As for Gaia feet, the Elysians come with great feet, but I still swapped them out for Gaias and it was money well spent.
The very fact that you measure equipment proves whether its decent or not,case in point the WE 300bs being slaughtered by the Shuggie 300Bs at a fraction of their absurd price for less power and more odd order harmonic distortion...which is what we dont want....your work is excellent and like ASR for tubes.THANKYOU!
Congratulations!
Klipsch has their Voxx Group mandated garbage but have survived that buyout and actually flourished. They've kept what PWK wanted his speakers to be. And honestly, the modern Heresy IVs sound better to me than any of the vintage models I have heard.
Try some 70's LaScala's with 25 watts or so of power (Pass Labs?) and a good subwoofer.
Do read the discussion of the a Zuaudio speaker from GR Research. particularly the cabinet, the diffraction due not being flush, and the tweeter and its horn. Efficiency is not the only criteria needed, as you have found out with the JBl,. Unfortunately, high efficiency speakers such as Devore Fidelity such as O Baby are in a high price class for your channel.
DO NOT watch his video if you already own the DW6 and are happy with them, lol. If I had seen it before I bought my Zu speakers I undoubtedly would not have gotten them. Being at the age where I can't hear above 14 kHz that tweeter issue is imperceptible to me, and I'm at the point where I'm not anal about all of the nuances of audio. I do get the importance of the scientific aspect of speaker design, but I'm wondering how many people actually notice any of these issues? Like they say, ignorance is bliss.
Good you returned them JBL’s then - life is too short for bad speakers! Looking forward to the full range - maybe try a pair of MAOP 10.2’s full range, not so expensive and they have a nice snap - then you can compare with the ones you already have…
Good work! It seems quite a chalenge for old brands to keep good quality and realistic prices.. Tannoy get its more affordable products made in China.. (Mofi?) Klipsch too I think, like some others BUT some brave hearts like Zu speakers do persist and succeed to offer quality speakers at decent cost like DWX. If you have an oportunity to borrow a pair Steph, I'd really like to get your report on how they sound when matched to good SE Tube equipment. Thanks!!
I used to love Infinity speakers, and in the 1990’s bought some JBL car audio products as they were a sister brand of Harmon, and was disappointed with the sound.
Curious on the preamp and step up transformer you are using with the AT mc cart as I have the same cart. Thanks for any advice
I'll do a video on that soon!
Really like the Fyne's.. I believe there's budget left so get a pair of Rel Classic 98's.. WIth 300B set amp and maybe AKM magic dac you probably solved audio.. 😎
I listened to JBL 4349 last year and those are great speakers.12 inch woofer and a 1,5 inch compression tweeter horn.these are the really good jbl speakers,but they are huge ofcourse and cost 8000 dollars...
wow!
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics i built similar speakers for 1000 dollars.But if a company builds them it is 6 to 8 times the cost.this applies to most speakers.
Well, even if you see or heard of some review, you got to see and heard the product to know if a product suit you're need or taste before buying it. Of course if you can have a demo of the product and a place to test it. For the reviewers in the net, it's the same problem as the hifi magazine; if they do a bad review of a product, they got cut from these companies who use these reviewers to do some publicity of there product, even if it's a bad product but, still, you've got the info about what product are in the market.
All truth 👍
Cool, a little listening record would have been nice addition to your feedback. Great video
Those YT "demo" tracks IMHO are a waste of everyone's time. You can't hear what someone else's speakers sound like on your speakers/headphone.
With JBL's decades upon decades of knowledge, you would think they should be able to make every speaker sound great for it's price point.
I was expecting $3000 and decades worth of magic.
In the 70s, I had a pair of JBL L1 hundreds I remember them as being well-balanced clear amazing base with just gorgeous real wood cabinets. when the remake was recently released, I went to listen to them and was astonished at how poorly Voice they were. They were literally unlistenable to somebody who knows what old JBL product sounded like.
That's sad.
Sorry to hear the JBLs didn't work out.
Live and learn!
The only speakers that I ever heard that blew me away were Platinum Audio speakers in the early 90’s. They were built in Vermont, and designed by Phil Jones. His thing has been to use 5” bass drivers. He later went to China and helped start Edifier, a big speaker brand on Amazon. His latest design is a bass guitar amp speaker that uses 4, 5” drivers. Those Platinum audio speakers had the most amazing bass, but the bass did null in the room, and I had to be in the listening area in-front of speakers to hear the sonic nirvana. I blamed that to the use of 5” drivers, but maybe it was the demo room. I have heard great things about the Edifier brand from non-audio people…they rave about them. Would be interesting to hear your review of Edifier speakers. Like the small class d amp reviews. I have not heard them though.
There is no free lunch in sound, and no bass in a 5" driver.
I beg to differ, these Fyne Audio F500 have plenty.
If the GR research Brute was not to big for your room then I feel they would easily be a top pick for you . The high sensitivity high impedance wide sound stage design that goes low and natural sound stage and about the same money as the JBL. But those are bigger speakers than you looking for. I was surprised how big the JBL speaker was
Yeah if large speakers would work for my use, it opens up a whole range of speakers like those Zu Audio and Mofi 8 speakers people keep recommending. I just know they aren't gonna work in my space. Even adding a sub in the room would be a struggle.
I think it's not quite fair to call a product junk or crap just because one doesn't like its sound. It's impossible to produce a product that will please everyone (sound-wise) in the first place.
When it's about safety issues like a missing earth connection on an amp or cheap materials on an expensive speaker then I agree to call out the manufacturers.
It was more about the build quality at this price point than the sound. For $3000 you should get a nicer finish than plastic parts. Using a laminate finish and plastic grill surround is cheap materials.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics yeah, agreed.
Now I want to try those. 😁
You should!
Ok here I go setting myself up for "the uninformed" comments but here goes- 1st most vintage speaker companies are run by folks who have no connection to the history or passion of the original designer/owner. 2. Cost has nothing to do with accuracy and one must understand speakers are built to a competitive price point (most are pigs with lipstick)! 3. To my second point and just think about what makes a speaker great (crossovers, drivers, cabinet, etc). The fact most of what makes a great speaker is hidden, this is the real problem in most cases!!! 4. The most ridiculous thing is (this is from over 40 yrs in this business) that most buy the wrong speaker and worse is they have no clue as to proper setup and integration.
Note: If your a casual listener than my recommendation is to buy a speaker that works with your amp/receiver and most importantly your room. If you don't have a local dealer or the means to audition your next best option is to buy from a manufacturer that allows for in home demos (this is also true for dealers). Secondly lean how to setup your speakers in your room, the proper way!!
here our hifi guys like jbl 4425 2 way speaker with big horn , after 2000 jbl product just like a standard gear not much suprise
Harmon is a little lax in the "stuff" they'll put the JBL name on buy there is good JBL to be had. The HDI line is pretty good though I think its being discontinued. Also the 4005 and 4329 powered speakers are supposed to be really good. Overall though Harmon is sort of trashing the brand..
tannoy is a good choice to try
No.
The people who started the 'Fyne' brand left Tannoy for a reason....
Hi Steph, Can you explain why you think the isolation feet make a difference? I was always under the understanding that you want speaker drivers pushing against as much mass as possible and coupling them solidly to your floor with spikes would seem to add the maximum amount of mass possible. I can understand the use of isolation feet IF you have an audible resonance somewhere caused by say the speakers being coupled to a desk or causing furniture somewhere to wobbly but not if there’s no audible problem. Can you give your view please? Thanks.
Just We, and by that I mean I have AB tested this with several different people, heard a difference and it was a true AB test with their eyes closed the whole time. It has something to do with decoupling the speakers from each other. If the are on something like a concrete slab, it doesn't make any difference.
Totally agree with your rant. You mentioned Omega speakers in another video recently---I'm interested in them as well. American made high efficiency speakers.
What about omega? I’ve never personally heard them. But they are a single driver made to be paired with tubes.
I have a lot of people recommending them, not sure if it's personal experience or internet experience...
but i heard the isoacuostic puck would reduce the bass output, is it true?
I found the opposite, and less resonance. Given how easy returns are, they are worth trying. I love these basic pucks under my bookshelf speakers.
Audio product reviews are all suspect to me, although some folks like you call it like you see it.
JBL's were crap in the day and they're still crap today...... Had L100's in the day (early 80's).... they went for sale when I heard some KEF 104AB's ......
Are you familiar with Blumenstein Audio? Might be of interest to you…
interesting, but look like they are all sub required.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics100%. I built some small transmission line speakers using a 3” driver. Made two pairs for my kids. They fill their rooms NP! I was thinking of these more for their revealing qualities. Could prove to be a useful tool for comparing amp builds. Was just a thought.
Way overrated!