A Math Equation for Proving the Papacy?!? w/ Dr. Scott Hahn & Cameron Bertuzzi
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- This clip was taken from a recent livestream with Dr. Scott Hahn and Cameron Bertuzzi. Watch the full interview here: • Conversion to Catholic...
In this clip, Cameron Bertuzzi shares about his math equation for proving (or disproving) the papacy.
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I think people are assuming that Cameron is just a snot nosed fake intellectual robot with this clip out of context.
In the video though, it shows that Cameron is actually building a relationship with people like Suan Sonna and Trent Horn actively, calling them up and discussing these matters, and has even been going to dinner with Scott Hahn.
He’s heard genuinely convincing arguments against the papacy, so now he’s seeking to balance it against genuinely (and I would say more) convincing arguments FOR the papacy.
He’s willing to LITERALLY convert if it lines up in favor of Catholicism, and in the video it becomes clearer and clearer how in favor it is.
This attitude of “how many times do we have to get it through to these guys?” is entirely applicable to Christ’s own apostles, who saw again and again MIRACLES with their own eyes and yet still doubted up until the crucifixion and even AFTER with the likes of Thomas.
And yet these men died for Christ.
So I don’t think we should discount anyone who’s a little stubborn in their ways, especially if they already profess Christ is King.
Actually, I respect his openness to follow the truth.... no matter where it leads him. I must admit, being raised Catholic, I am convinced that the Catholic church is THE church Christ established, and am not as open as he is to entertaining that I have been duped all of these years.
This takes more humility than I can muster at this point. Loads of respect to Cameron!
Yeah to be honest the Bayesian calculator amused even Dr Hahn later on in the video. He sees the use in it even if it does seem a bit much. I found it fun how the probabilities shifted as the video went along.
Cameron is a great guy, and I will pray for him. It would be a blessing to have him in the Church!
Cameron, I was raised a sincere Protestant, and 7 years ago I felt the very same way you did about the centrality of the doctrine of the papacy. I began to see that even if I resolved some questions I had about the Eucharist, the sacraments, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints, I still could never in good conscience become Catholic unless I believed in the authority of the Church, and specifically the authority of the papacy. God moved me to pray to Him for wisdom as I addressed myself to this question, and as a Catholic of 6 years now I commend you for your sincerity, and I pray that God will give you wisdom, grace, and peace as you pursue Him and His truth.
Brother, regardless of what you decide, I admire your search for the truth. It's inspiring to see your faith journey unfold
Cameron I love your statistical approach. I think that you should also ask if there are any objections to protestantism.
He is so right about the Papacy being the fundamental issue. Catholicism means so much more than just the Papacy BUT without the acceptance of the Papacy there is no Catholicism and therefore if you are convinced that the Papacy is the legitimate authority than you should be a Catholic.
The flipside of this is that if you aren't convinced of the papacy, you cannot in good conscience be Catholic. That's pretty weird to me.
@@EamonBurke Peter NEVER provided a new revelation from the Holy Spirit without presenting it to the ENTIRE church first and having EVERYONE agree; and that included the laity!
I’ve been praying to our blessed Virgin Mother Mary. Our amazing mother to us all. So lovely and beyond. Jesus gave his mother not only to St John but to All. Please trust in her intercession and trust in Jesus why he chose this to be 🙏
Not really. Orthodox don't recognize the papal monarchy and they are, as they call themselves, the one true apostolic catholic (complete) church. So, they are catholic without the heretical pope.
@@b0ondockz838 Well you are not aware about Council of Florence then, where a Papal bull was accepted by both West and the East on bishop of Rome holding the Supreme authority over the Church worldwide.
Thomas = Doubting Thomas, I need to see to believe
Cameron = Counting Cameron, I need to calculate to believe
Cameron when his eucharist-inator only detects "bread-like substance": 😦🕵️♂️😦
These kinds of comments are precisely the reason it took me years to actually become a Christian. Do you seriously think that Jesus would not allow someone being open and honest and truly searching him to find him through whatever means they happen to use?
Absolutely astonishing, the attitude of so many Christians. God became a human and hung in agony for hours, but I guess it’s too much for him to go personalize his revelations
@@lebecccomputer287 I think they were joking. I found Jesus through creationism and later became Catholic because of the biblical evidence for the papacy. God shows us the way to his Church by various means I can agree.
What a great conversation!
To be fair to Cameron, and true to my multiple experiences as a Catholic, the heirarchy does not act or live as if there is any true equality between "them and us". Since Vatican II, they want us to take a more active role in just about everything but they most certainly do not want us questioning them or doing anything to correct them when they are in the wrong. They have placed themselves (wrongly) above us, instead of as fellow brothers with a somewhat different function, and have no problem playing the authority card at any time they are made to feel uncomfortable. Such is not servant leadership with a servant's heart, as all good stewards should be!
In Christ,
Andrew
The subtle look on Scott Hahn's face when Cameron used the phrase "safest way"....its like he was saying "whatever dude"
For some reason, as a young boy, somewhere near the age of 8...?
It did occur to me that the Church had more experience and wisdom regarding the teachings of Christ than any one person could ever hope to have.
I look back on memories like this and only now recognize that it was the Holy Spirit.
I guess this comment pertains to the subject of, "you gotta trust someone."
This is the argument that helped me the most 😂:
“Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine - but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight”
Hilaire Belloc
absolutely true--look at what's going on NOW
Allow me to offer a similar sentiment. If the Catholic Church was merely a human institution, it would never have survived nearly twenty centuries of simultaneous internal assaults from bad Catholics and external assaults from its enemies.
This is outstanding! Thank you for such a beautiful explanation of the way faith and reason come to union in the Catholic faith, always under the head of Christ.
Scott Hann is eloquent and explained the Church, the Mistical Body of Christ, in a simple, clear yet profund way. Thank you!
I had a chuckle when I heard that you are using Bayes; that is named after Thomas Bayes, a Presbyterian minister, to try and prove the Papacy.
That was fascinating, it'd be great if Cameron published the methodology and rationale behind the Bayesian analysis. Great overall interview.
I will one day!
I’m starting to think he may be a data scientist lol. My ears perked up a bit when he mentioned Bayesian analysis.
I would love a video on theology and quantum physics if you ever see this! Keep up the good work as well!
Ill be praying for Cameron! I know the Lord will guide him to the Church! And welcome home brother!
1:10 That look!
Is there any way to follow up on his computation? I'm intrigued, although sceptical that he will come up with an answer robust enough (that is favorable to the papacy and resistant to scrutiny) that he might convert.
Praying for you, Cameron. If you hear this, I would recommend, alongside praying and reading Holy Scripture of course, would be to read St. Augustine’s Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus, especially chapter 4. It gives a great explanation of what the Church is. God bless.
A little bizarre that Cameron has a statistical measure for the papacy and whether it’s true. Just not something I do when debating the truth of something
Wait, you didn't type up statistical data equations and probability reports for every pope from Peter to France before your conversion? You have no faith!
@@MikeyJMJ I’m not even catholic, I just think it’s a weird way to go about faith. I don’t believe he’s using the same statistical analysis for the Eucharist or paradox of God becoming man.
I think it’s cute.
Amazing sweatshirt!
it just brought tears to me eyes
Matt on the left side keeps tripping me up! 😄
You can be assured that while St. John the Apostle was alive, and writing his letters, he would have spoken out against anyone being a "Head Bishop", (leader of all the Bishops, Priests, Deacons and religious) in the Church. This "Head Bishop" inherited the Chair of Moses (now called the "Chair of Peter" (aka the See of Peter). After the destruction of the Temple, there were no longer any High Priests, and the Jewish priesthood ceased to exist. Jesus made Peter the "Head Bishop" which came to be called "Pope".
What is really amazing is that our first three Popes are mentioned by name in the New Testament! They are: St. Peter, St Linus, and St. Clement 1 of Rome. (See Philippians 4:3, and 2 Timothy 4:2). St. Clement of Rome is most known for the letter he wrote to the church in Corinth, simply called 1 Clement. It is one of the oldest surviving Christian writings outside of the New Testament. Our first 4 Popes all knew St. John the Apostle (they were alive while St. John the Apostle was alive). St. Linus was ordained by St. Paul; St. Anacletus (aka Cletus) was the third Pope and ordained by St. Peter; and St. Clement 1 of Rome was ordained by St. Paul.
Apostolic Church Fathers are those who were taught by the Apostles and knew them, and St. Polycarp, the Bishop of Smyrna, was a disciple of St. John the Apostle, and ordained by him. In Revelation 2:8, it is Polycarp that is the “angel” of the Church of Smyrna! St. Ignatius of Antioch was also taught by St. John the Apostle, and Polycarp and Ignatius became good friends.
In the Old Testament, the first High Priest was Aaron, Moses' brother. This position was held for life, just as our Pope's position is lifelong.
The Catholic Church can trace this unbroken link from our Pope today, and all our Bishops, straight back to the Apostles and Christ, who gave the keys of kingdom to Peter, and established His Church on the Rock (Kepas: in English = Peter), with the foundation of the Apostles and Christ the Capstone (Keystone).
No other Church has this..
He just described the priesthood by only taking those that didn’t have a wife so just like the scripture say it’s better not to be married when you’re serving the church because your bride is the church he just described Catholicism in his words of who he chooses to help him on his project to disprove Protestantism
I am very curious what values Cameron put in his bayesian analysis for the Papacy.
I’m not sure how Bayesian analysis works, but I do agree with him that the Papacy is the only doctrine that matters in the decision in joining the Catholic Church, which says a lot. If it wasn’t for Vatican 1, I think both Catholics and Orthodox had great potential for unity, but because the issue of Papacy did not become MERELY a theological opinion or small t tradition, but now DOGMA that is equal to belief in the Trinity, as an Orthodox, I find that very off putting. And furthermore, Scott Han’s analogy of the spinal cord is why I’m Orthodox. It’s not one person who is vicar, but many vicars, many Peters, not one Peter.
Really wanna see this Bayesian analysis
Praying about it helps.
How can you attach a probability to something that you don't know whether it nor it's antecedent ever happened?
Most proof for the papacy is interrelated, one element at least partly leaning on another.
If you buy papal prefigurment with Joseph in Egypt, it effects the reading of Acts, etc.
It distills to a dichotomous situation.
It requires us to see the idea through to it's rational conclusion once we affirm the premises.
I have really gotten to like Cameron a lot, but it just seems like he doesn't want the consequences of what he is rationally accepting.
I disagree; I don't think Catholic polity and the papacy is the biggest divide between Protestants and Catholics. I think the biggest divide is the Catholic dogma of Transubstantiation. If Catholics believed what most Protestants believed on this issue then the issue of the church's governing structure would be moot. You only dislike a governing structure if you disagree with those governing about other issues.
@Andy Evenso it is the governor's DECISIONS that you're disagreeing with. In every form of government there are good and bad governors and a bad governor will eventually no longer be in office whether through elections or due to human mortality.
He should check out Steve Ray 🙏
The Church via data points; that's an interesting proposition. Perhaps a willingness to believe + a public act of Faith and leave the rest to the Holy Ghost. Ne timeas.
YOU CANNOT FIND CHRIST AND THE TRUE CHURCH THROUGH LOGIC AND RATIONALISM. THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD IS FOOLISHNESS WITH GOD. ONE CAN ONLY COME TO CHRIST AND THE CHURCH WITH A HEART PURIFIED BY DIVINE GRACE. NEVERTHELESS, THESE DISCUSSIONS ARE BRILLIANT.
To those hating on his approach, Bayesian analysis used this way is an attempt to formalize the process that basically all who have reasoned their way into to Catholicism go through. You lay out all the evidence and assign it a numerical value for how strong it is. This obviously doesn’t eliminate bias (I.e. over or under weighting evidence), but it can help minimize it. With that said, I joined the church a couple years ago and wouldn’t say I reasoned my way into it. Rather, I feel that God lead me into it. However, I did use reason throughout the process to confirm what I felt I was being drawn to.
@Andy If the papacy is true, then it would probably be due to bias. Not sure what your point is. Do you think I think bayesian analysis gets you to objective truth a very high percentage of the time or something? Because I don't, I just think it's a better chance than not doing it.
@Andy No, if the papacy is true and his analysis pointed to its falsehood, that would probably be due to bias. Yes, I'm Catholic.
@Andy His analysis is an attempt to figure out if the foundations of Catholicism are true, namely whether it has the divine authority to define dogma. If he was convinced of that, then he would simply accept all of the dogmas taught by the Church, and he wouldn't need to pass each one through a statistical analysis.
That's so easy. When Jesus said "You are Petros and upon this Petra I will build my Church", he was referring to Peter's statement of faith, which was a monumental, first time in the history of the universe statement. The statement, in and of itself, is the Rock upon which Jesus would build his Church.
This is why Jesus loved kids so much vs the adults who were scholars.
No the fundamental issues the priesthood that’s the main thing forgiveness of sins confecting the Eucharist baptism anointing of the sick received by Church personal relationship with the church and the priest that’s the major thing
It doesn't get more delusional than this.
_Trusting_ Bayesian statistics to decide between two doctrines?! The frequentist approach to decision-making is much easier: just flip a coin!
@Andy Yes, watch this and bow to the Probability Cow! Why not train an AI model and ask it, too? (Siri and Alexa would be too ambiguous in their answers).
Jimmy has no family. I’m sure you didn’t mean it in a rude way
I think it’s preposterous. Does he have a probability for the existence of God too, with what alpha value?
I don't think your understanding the point. He's at the point where he's realizing he may have been wrong, but decided to see if there a way to confirm his growing concerns/intuition and make sure it's not just himself going with the flow?
@@teamgab7432 I think he's just at the point where he's running the course again to milk out this conversion series.
@@MikeyJMJ while it's technically possible that's certainly a negative take 🙃
@@teamgab7432 I type my comment into the Bayesian equation calculator and the quantifiable analysis is positive, not negative.
I would absolutely encourage anyone starting to believe in God to run Bayesian analysis on his existence. Do you think that intimidates Him? What’s preposterous at all about it?
Funny way of converting your belief into Math. You'll never get your answer as you see God's equation is only One + Faith which you don't have.
Sounds like Cameron is at the "nail scratches on the floor" stage of his conversion
The confused look on Scott Hahn's face says it all. This was the worst fear come true for practical apologists like Scott. This is what they wanted to avoid turning Catholic apologetics into.
ah yes, bayesian analysis. not at all concerning and weird to talk like that about the faith.
The chief priest is Jesus Christ upon his resurrection and ascension appointed Peter to be the head and then every priest is in persona Christi hisMajesty Our Lord Jesus Christ took the daily bread and wine sacrifice in the temple in Jerusalem and put it on every altar in every city in the world he truly magnifies the lord
Man oh man… mathematical equations?? How about the words of Jesus
and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.“
We must be helpless like children trusting the Lord God to teach us through the power of the Holy Spirit by his Word.
At some point we have to give up our looking under every rock and trusting in created things (math) than our creator. Anyway… I ain’t teaching my kids math to understand the gospel. And for anyone who is confused the gospel is this: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” 1 Corinthians 15:3
Teach your children this beautiful truth… know that Paul never needed a math equation or Peter or anyone! Believe Gods Word and trust him with your soul! He justifies he sanctifies
My prayer for you right now Cameron is “Lord God I come to you through Jesus your Son, Sanctify Cameron in truth, your Word is truth. Teach Cameron your ways by the power of your Spirit, may he be like a tree planted beside flowing streams where his leaf will not wither, and whatever he does prospers. Most of all Father God, may the gospel go fourth and be proclaimed in all he does. Amen.”
Ps. May grace and peace be multiplied to you
As a protestant, I have to say I love the great dialog that is displayed here. That being said, I believe math is of the devil. If Cameron uses math to decide religious matters, he will end up a Mormon. ;-)
Math is of the devil? God is Truth, my friend. All truth is participation in the divine.
@@meatofpeach God also has a sense of satire, that is what I was shooting for, but I think I may have missed the target. :-)
So Peter didn't exist? Read your Bible dude.
Outside the traditional Catholic faith there is absolutely no salvation!
How did you come to that conclusion?
@@ruben346 are you a traditional Catholic?
Good question, how did you come to this conclusion?
talks to 2 people and wants to say from that he formed a conclusion about the papacy---- Protestantism is correct..What a ludicrous way to establish your faith - read the bible alone
Autism
FFS, he's still at this BS. Stop wasting your time and energy with this Cameron fellow: he's full of pride and arrogance. Let him have his pissed-down version of Christianity. If he hasn't converted by now, with all that's been presented to him: cut your losses. "Cast not your pearls before swine".
What a disgusting comment. Whether he is convinced or not, we need to pray for his conversion.
@@calebadcock363 It may not be charitable but disgusting is too much. A lot of people have an issue with Cameron's "approach". Some people just say it differently
This Cameron guy sounds like a real jerk.
Imagine shitting on someone for being careful in deciding what they believe and not immediately caving to authoritarian demands
@@lebecccomputer287 yeah. Deal with it.