I feel like Adira coming back was call back to what Vir said long ago, something about how none of their gods would deny Londo Mollari a single night of happiness. This was his one night of happiness.
Zoe touched me when I first watched it, now all these years later Zoe touches me even more. As for Kosh's message, when the time comes, you will understand - I am sure of that - I shan't say if you are right or wrong or close.
Sheridan DOES tell Rebo that comics is important. He literally says "During the Clark regime, you were still saying things nobody else could say. Comedy is incredibly important". Regarding the ghosts, remember the call to Garibaldi. Lochley and Garibaldi could perceive each other's visitors. And regarding their humour, you're not supposed to get it. They're supposed to be impenetrable not because JMS hates them but because that's how you write "the funniest act in the galaxy 250 years in the future". The funniest person in the world from the 1770s, joking COMPLETELY without context, isn't that funny to the average 2020s reader either.
It's more like the reverse - what would a guy from the 1770's think of say the comedy of someone like Jerry Seinfeld. We are the audience from the past stuck with no context to 'get' the jokes delivered to us by Rebo & Zooty far into in the future.
"Maybe I'm doing that thing where I put two people in a relationship they don't really have"... now apply that to everything you've ever said about Zack & Leeta!
I'm sorry, but Sheridan DID say that what Rebo and Zooty did was important - he even gave a reason why it was important. I really don't get what your complaint is here because everything you say should have been said WAS said.
Yeah, but you see, they didn't do the Star Trek thing where they beat you over the head with the message like you're a 5 year-old, so it doesn't count. 🙄
@@TheFireMonkey It looks to be a trend where in the first 10 minutes (or from the title alone) of an episode, one or both of them will get an idea that they get attached to, and then if that idea turns out wrong, they spend the entire rest of the episode only looking for things to cherry-pick in support of an argument of why it was bad and ignoring any evidence that goes against that narrative. It's especially egregious when they complain about things not happening or being said that actually happened or were said in the episode, but they "missed" them since that would weaken their argument for why the episode is bad. Acknowledging that Sheridan had said it and then complaining that it wasn't elaborated upon enough to be meaningful would have been a valid argument, but wouldn't let Brent piss all over the episode and give it a zero, so he magically missed it.
Do not forget Morden´s purpose on the show was to ask and deliver what people want. Everyone who saw a ghost looked more at peace because they resolved something from their past. Garibaldi committed to Liz, Lockley said goodbye to her friend and finally knew that her death was not an accident and Londo realized what is truly important to him, not just intellectually, but he felt it. Lennier ignored his visitor and we all know what he wants. He does too, but he is running away from it rather than confronting it. Personally I consider this to be a Lockley episode, we learned more about here here than in all episodes up to now put together.
Capers and anchovies is one of THE most classic pizza toppings in Italy. I'm shocked you didn't know that. 90% of all the pizzas I ate had capers on them.
I've heard that it was supposed to be Marcus that appeared to Lennier but he wasn't available. But having Morden appear actually makes it better especially with his revelation that Lennier will betray the rangers.
It DOES make it more poignant. And when he assured Lennier that he was telling the truth, it tied back to their Za'ha'dum discussion where these two were trying to decide if Justin, Anna & Morden (& by extension, the Shadows) were telling Sheridan the truth or not. Gotta love Babylon 5. Where the "bad guys" (Shadows) may be bad (but not completely) and not necessarily the way you think. And the "good guys" (Vorlons) are not really all THAT good either. And in many ways, are just as bad (or worse) than the bad guys, in similar ways.
Exactly, and so many people miss this point. Just look at movies in our own times, some I never found funny, though someone did, even if it was only the people that made them. Others were funny 20 years ago and fall flat today. Heck, there is a reason that Jerry Louis' movies are, today, thought to be absurd, but Peter Seller's Pink Panther series are still classics, despite having some physical comedy in common.
Actually, will add one more thing - across cultures, it may not translate at all. Our two hosts are looking at it in terms of comedy being used in America, for Americans, about subjects that affect Americans, and that works well. But just look at British comedy. Some of us get it, mostly, some don't think it is funny at all, and if it was commentary to on something specific to their different cultural ideals, we might not get it at all.
It is also that the writers did not want to try to write a top notch stand up comedy routine. Kind of like how the "Rome" series did not directly show Mark Anthony's funeral oration for Julius Caesar, as they could not compete with Shakespeare and could not use Shakespeare so they punted.
@mjbull5156 Maybe, but they could have opted to have them be their own descendants even, or heck, they themselves are comedic, so they could have come up with something. But, it is my understanding that it was expressly intended that "we" don't get it. If it has been funny to us, this wpuld have undermined the whole point - we don't have the cultural context for "why" nearly everyone got the joke, but we didn't.
I'm fairly certain that not all forty billion Centauri are living on Centauri Prime, but spread out over multiple colony worlds and systems, space stations, habitats, facilities, and so-on. And by the way, Titan is a moon of Saturn, Triton is a moon of Neptune.
@@blacko3539 Yup it was specifically mentioned by I think Londo when he says the Vorlons wouldn't dare to destroy Centauri Prime with IIRC 4 billion people on it - and then at another point Marcus explicitly says that the Army of Light is making its stand at Coriana 6 instead because it has *six* billion. Cold hard numbers, Coriana 6 had a couple more billion inhabitants than Centauri Prime
@@la_scrittice_vitaStopped back after a while to see how the Gaiman episode went down. Frankly i wouldn't expect any more of them, they defend Lost for goodness sake 🙄
@@christinac127 Wait they often complain about episodes not progressing or seemingly not progressing anything or not having concrete narrative purposes... and they defend a TV creation of Mr Mystery Boxes, king of never going anywhere, all build up no payoff, JJ Abrams?
Yep, he was staging a political protest - placing himself somewhere as inconvenient as possible to make himself a constant reminder of his warning and impossible to ignore. As wise and enlightened as G'Kar has become, he still retains a measure of his old childish pettiness when he doesn't get his way.
True. And I think that WAS an "unresolved issue" for Garabaldi. NOT just the adolescent, hedonistic, "I didn't get to bang the cute, sassy GROPO." thing. But ALSO, the, "I didn't provide COMFORT and a final night of pleasure/ happiness to a brave, willing soldier (I was attracted too) before she went off to DIE.", kind of regret. And I DO think Garabaldi "technically" cheated on Elise! (Whether the ghosts were "real" or not!) He might lessen his sense of guilt by 1/2 convincing himself that, "It was just a VERY vivid (wet) dream"! But I honestly believe that IF Garabaldi were ever attached to a Lie Detector & asked if he had ever "cheated", it would Buzz if he said "No". (Because, to HIM, it would be a lie.) So yeah, Garabaldi IS a "good guy", but that doesn't mean he is a SAINT!
I imagine that you'll get many comments telling you that Neil Gaiman actually wrote this one! A counterpoint but I think it's actually hilarious that Morden came back from the dead wanted a cup of coffee and read the newspaper! Lennier was the one wanting wisdom from the dead and then didn't like what he got but Mr. Morden was happy to be a little snarky guy yet again.
What is funny about Mr Morden, is that he was basically a slave to the Shadows, doing their bidding, not allowed to do what he wanted (cause Shadows don't know what they want and Vorlons don't know who they are). So Morden, finally at peace, got to read the news and wanted to drink some coffee, normal stuff for everyone. Morden is more at peace than anyone else who came back. And Lennier, who wanted to talk to the dead to seek wisdom, got someone who didn't have much wisdom in life. Brent and Jeff do not understand what kind of unresolved problem Lennier has, but to people who watch Lennier's character closely, it's very obvious what his unresolved issue is, and it Morden's message is foreshadowing of what is to come and why it will happen.
@@busdriverbuddha he was a willing participant, but he was also a slave who had to do what he was told and nothing else. He didn't get to do what he wanted.
@@busdriverbuddha he was an envoy for the Shadows who were asleep 1000 years. He was explaining to them how they need to act to achieve their goals. That there are other ways to control Londo, that they don't need to kill him and stuff like that. He was definitely fascinated by them, but he didn't have free will to do whatever he wanted. The Shadows controlled him. He was their face.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime The line can be read two ways: - Now that we're married, they'll say I married you for your money. - After we're married, they'll say I married you for your money. It's really left up to interpretation at this point in the show. I won't tell you whether this is resolved later on.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime Ah. I had interpreted that as her inviting him to help run Edgars Industries (and that they weren't yet married) and that has was saying "if we went ahead and got married then..."
If these two were villains, I would sum up their obsession with telepaths not being a major part in a war that ended with a cease fire as, "How dare the city just give up before I got to use my dooms day weapon!!" Not every resource always gets used in a war, not every weapon gets deployed, nor do they all end as expected. B5 does this kind of thing all the time - we *expect* things to happen X way, but then the rug is pulled out from under us and something else happened. Heck, one of the things that may have pissed off Bester is that B5 acted without him and, by the same token, pissed of those at the battle is, "Where were you!?"
This was one of the episodes I was really looking forward to when you started. Glad you made it. When I first saw it in the original run i didnt know Penn or Teller (they are not known in Germany) still enjoyed it and it became more funny each time after i discovered them, watched their TV shows and such. I really admire how you managed to go through the whole thing, and not peek ahead.
What if the point isn't about who the living would want to see to resolve thier issues. It's about who the dead would want to visit to resolve issues they didn't get the opportunity to when they were alive. Londo was hoping to see the first emperor, but why would the first emperor care to see Londo? Same for all those encounters.
Agreed, this seems more about who the Dead wanted to visit. Adira died on her way to reunite with Londo, she would want to complete that journey. Dodger died frustrated that her final night didn't go as she hoped, she'd want another go at it. Zoe died feeling guilt that Lochley would blame herself, so she came back to absolve Lochley. Mr Morden was probably simply after one more opportunity for mischief... or perhaps there was something more altruistic in his warning... nah, definitely mischief.
I always thought that Adira did deliver a message, but it was never spoken in the episode. "Dancing is beautiful and fun; but eventually, you have to put your dancing shoes away and get ready for the long trek to rest." Londo's long trek is about to start and he is getting his last dance.
I mean we the audience do not know Rebo and Zooty, so we're not supposed to understand their humor and jokes. That's why we connect with Lochley who also doesn't understand them. We know that they're funny, and everyone likes them, but they're doing jokes that people that are familiar with their program understand. Also I always had the impression that because Rebo and Zooty studied alien humor a lot, one of the reasons why Zooty is a mute, is because that little device is actually controlling him in a way. They probably got it on a dig or market on some alien planet, and it took over Zooty. Which is why he can't talk without this machine. They played into Teller's little gimmick but in the B5 universe. And Sheridan literally said to Rebo what you said, that saying serious things through comedy is the reason to do comedy, and why it's important. This episode is definitely not for everyone, but it's one of my favorites in season 5.
@@busdriverbuddha Penn and Teller are funny, but we don't know the characters of Rebo and Zooty. It's like old Shakesperean comedies or whatever, some jokes we understand, some we don't cause we no longer understand the context of certain jokes. Same here but it's the future and we don't know their show. There's a great video explaining why Rebo and Zooty are well written characters.
@@MattLathrum Not when they spend so much effort on purposely being disingenuous, and not actually paying attention to the show. ESPECIALLY WHEN REBO AND ZOOTY (PENN AND TELLER) FLAT OUT FUCKING SAY THAT HUMOUR IS FUCKING SUBJECTIVE AND THEY ACTIVELY RESEARCH WHAT EACH CULTURE FINDS FUNNY!
He said to Lise at the end of season 4 after a night of clearly romping around the sack, “They’ll say I married you for your money.” Without foreknowledge of things to come, that seems pretty clear, and at the very least extremely implicative.
It was clear it was likely to hapen but have you seen that the wedding took place yet or a ring. We saw John got married with Michael all we saw was marriage was being planned.
Temporary sale is a thing in Judaism for similar religious reasons, and the script had similar customs in mind. Every Passover we're not allowed to own non-passover food, but nobody wants to clear their entire freezer for a one week festival... So the entire Jewish community collectively sell our food to a non-Jewish person or group, for a nominal sum, organised by the rabbis. Then we buy it back afterwards. It's a nominal agreement to fulfil the religious obligation; nobody seriously expects to have a stranger show up at the door and demand their bread. But the contract doesn't actually guarantee that, because it's not a sale if we get takebacks. Just as Brent said, it's not a sale if you can't in theory renege on the deal and keep it. I imagine the Brakiri ones works the same way.
I've sold my hidden breadcrumbs (and listened to the appropriate Dragnet radio episode), but the real estate analysis is a little incomplete. A lease of property divides rights (or "sticks" to those of us with 3 years of brain damage) between the landlord and the tenant in the same contract. When you sell something outright, "fee simple", then you have no further rights under that contract, and the new owner can do what he wants with it (subject to any controlling laws). That does not stop the parties from making a separate contract, which may or may not be on the same piece of paper, for the buyer under contract #1 to sell that same property back to the original seller at a set date and time in the future; they are separate agreements with different sets of rights and remedies, if that's the way you set it up in the first place.
I don't think Penn and Teller were forced on the show. I think they were friends with JMS outside of the show. JMS is a staunch atheist and P&T are huge in the Skeptics communities. I really rhink JMS just called them up and ask "hey, wanna be on my show?" 🤔
Titan is a moon of Saturn. I remember when they landed the Huygens probe and we got pictures of Methane lakes and rivers. I like how we got some Lochley background in just 3 words (Password: Zoe is dead) Neat thing: At one of the 20th anniversary conventions Bridget Flanery (Zoe) was invited, and she was quite surprised at the fans remembering such a short scene and appreciated the fans a lot. I think Tracy Scoggins was instrumental in getting her the invitation to the con. 65! Be seeing you!
The real question about this episode is how Londo and G'Kar is in this episode. The previous episode they were heading towards they were on a ship to centauri prime.
Regarding Ed Wasser's haircut, it seems the first thing he recorded after Morden's death was Mike Hammer: Private Eye, S01E05. He already has the new haircut there. For anyone who's interested, his scene in the episode is at around 5:30. Incidentally, Denise Gentile (Lise) appears in this episode as well, starting at 10:20.
Just checked out the episode on Tubi, first time I’ve seen them in anything else. Needed to add a couple of minutes to those times to find them on Tubi.
I know people who loved this episode and people who hated it - not many who didn't have much of a reaction though. I am one who loved it, though I have got questions even all these years later...
This is one which is mostly loved or hated, so I am not surprised when people go either way. I am one of the rare ones in the middle. I like it, and appreciate many things in it, but I can see the problems people have with it too. This is something common with Neil Gaiman writing stories for popular shows which are not of his own creation. But I'm sorry, you are still in a sequence of stories which needed to be edited down to 1/2 as many episodes....
😊Did Lando not destroy the Shadows' ships on Centari Prime? Was he not ready to have Vir kill him to protect their planet from his bad choices ? Even though the Vorlons may have left after all of this and didn't destroy the Centari, because they were recalled, still didn't Lando feel he had the right to think he saved the day...and the Centari people?
Lol- the six places... They're in the small of Centauri women's backs. Never mentioned in dialog or books. Never comes into story at all. In fact, the only times you can even remotely come close to seeing it is when Londo shows the statuette of Li to... someone. There's also a larger one in the Centauri throne room, but even then it's blink and you miss it. JMS explained it once. There- that's a thing you know now 😂
As I said on the Brent Watches video, I like how this gives us more about Lochley's past. She was wild once, and after Zoe's death she cleaned up and became more in control. I won't say much about Lennier and Morden. Otherwise I think the visitations were to some degree random to be surreal. I'm thinking maybe the Rebo & Zooty part *should* have been its own episode. It might have been good to have a broad discussion about the importance of entertainment and comedy. I suspect Neil Gaiman had to fill out the episode because the "day of the dead" story didn't have an explanation. That might be why that part of the episode feels like it rushed through the idea. Ivanova's latent telepathy would have mattered in this season if Claudia had stayed on. How it would have mattered kinda depends on where your search takes you for the "original" season 5 plan or when you hear from JMS. I'd suggest you not poke around on the subject until after you've watched B5. :)
I liked this episode, it is very TNG, which is refreshing. It's the episode that brought me around on Tracy Scoggins. JMS wanted Neil Gaiman (the Gaim were named after him) to write an episode in an earlier season but he was always too busy so it was a 'now-or-never' situation. I suspect Lennier was hoping to meet Marcus instead of Mr Morden, maybe G'Kar would've met Lord Refa? Capers are best in a Spaghetti Puttanesca; fast and easy to cook, it's fantastic.
OMG LOL!!! You Guys Crack Me Up!!! 🤣🤣🤣 This episode can be watched anywhere from episode 3 to I think episode 10. As long as you watch it within that range, you're good. September 11th, 2001 was supposed to be my 27th birthday and instead I ended up feeling like I was in a political horror movie...
Zoe coming back might also be important to understand why she broke off with Sheridan. She and Sheridan got married early on right after graduating the Earthforce academy. I'm not sure how it is with two officers getting married in the military, but I'm guessing she was not yet over the death of Zoe and her past life. We can only guess why exactly they broke it off (didn't match characters, just didn't love each other as they thought they did, other issues), but seeing Zoe and getting a glimpse and Lochley's past life, we can assume or guess that she was not yet fully recovered or at least she didn't yet figure everything out and getting married to Sheridan so early was a mistake.
No disrespect, but you’re engaging in drawing lines between dots, as though there is actually an overarching narrative. True, the dots seem to be logically placed, but JMS didn’t complete the picture. So the dots remain unconnected. At the very least, they don’t contradict each other, particularly in relation to Lochley’s existing backstory. As a sidenote: I don’t like much of anything Lochley brought to Season 5. I wish Claudia had remained onboard.
@@FallenHellscape I don't disagree that Lochley was a character quickly created to substitute Claudia Christian's Susan Ivanova. But her being married to Sheridan isn't a betrayal of the character or anything completely wrong. Brent and Jeff hated that part, and I think they just set up expectations and weren't happy when those expectations weren't met.
@@FallenHellscape I'd rather Claudia had stayed on too, but honestly, I think JMS did a good job fleshing out Lochley as a character and making her unique, instead of just Ivanova 2.0, especially considering he had just one season to do it. Ivanova had 4 seasons to develop as a character. That said, I really like the Garibaldi/Lochley dynamic in season 5, which, if I'm not mistaken, was what got Scoggins the part.
"A bunch of false starts the ended up going nowhere"........ Brent, Brent, Brent... 100+ episodes under your belt, have you learned nothing? Still expecting payoff by the 45 minute mark?
No mention that this screenplay Wasn't written by JMS Club 65? The remarkable Neil Gaiman penned this one and is largely why some of the themes did not feel as Babylon 5 but mor like a generic 1990s SFF episode.
It would have made more sense if Morden had visited Vir and maybe said something vague about Londo’s future or the powerful allies he warned about before his demise.
The viewing order matters for this one because Londo and G'Kar are in it, but they're en route to Centauri Prime. Also, you can't (completely) blame JMS for this one; he didn't write it. This is the episode that broke his writing streak. I believe Penn & Teller's appearance was at their request... Zoe and Morden came with profound messages (albeit at one remove for Zoe). Garibaldi and Londo just got to have one last good memory with a loved one. Of the 40 billion Centauri, remember only 3 billion of them are on Centauri Prime. I guess they really do have a lot of colonies. The dead were really there. Dodger talks to Lochley. And, to discout some shared hallucination zone, when Lochley talks to Sheridan, you see Zoe peeking into the camera. Lochley made a very brief comment about how awful her dad was. It sounds like she ran away from home, to get away from a terrible home life. Another missed writing opportunity: we never found out why G'Kar was so against the Day Of the Dead...
The six places is shown in a statue of the Centauri goddess of love and passion in season one. One male point is shown in detail also but that is as far as I will go so you can watch for it in your rewatch in season one.
Re: Jeff’s explanation of Catholic mass structure. I went to Catholic elementary school high school, and spent one year at a Jesuit university. (Go Zags!) and I never learned any of that about the mass structure. Except for at GU, where we studied the gnostic gospels in depth. It’s really interesting as an atheist (now) to learn that that’s what they were doing/meaning. thanks for the overdue lesson, Jeff.
It's worth pointing out that the P&T casting as Rebo and Zooty *may* have been influenced by the move to TNT. JMS never said anything to that effect, but he did talk a lot about what production was like after the S5 pickup. It's possible thise issues were on his (and the rest of the production staff's) mind when it came to guest casting. Especially for a piece written by Gaiman.
"Valen: the After Years". Interestingly enough, as much as "after years" is a very obscure term you almost never hear in everyday conversation, I have recently come across it being used multiple times by Arthur Machen in his story "The Secret Glory". Not sure if it was more commonly used a hundred years ago, or if Machen was just as obscure in his time as it is today.
65.. I didn't find Rebo & Zooty funny, either... and for 25 years, I've written it off because I have never found Penn and Teller to be funny, either - so I was wasn't surprised by my lack of reaction to them I do enjoy the visits from the Dead here... Morden appearing to Lennier is the only one that felt out of place to me - fans at the time felt it should have been Marcus, but if I recall the actor wasn't available and the show runners really wanted to fit Morden in there so Lennier got him
An example of legit jokes as separate from us in time as Rebo and Zooty: "The late Mrs. Oldfield being asked if she thought Sir. W.Y. and Mrs. H-n,* who had both stinking Breaths, were marry’d I don’t know, said she, whether they are marry’d but I am sure there is a Wedding between them." Hahahah, hilarious, right? Or "It seems as if Nature, who so wisely adapted the Organs of our Bodies to our Happiness, had with the same View given us Pride to spare us from the Grief of knowing our Imperfections."
Greetings fellow lurker of Grid Epsilon (GEnie Sci-fi roundtable to the rest of you). I remember when Joe told us and was scrolling to see if anyone had it in the comments.
Two things guy. First Britt you need to start listening a little better to What the characters say it might surprise you. Second, Jeff there are the B5 books which is concerned cannon, and one of them deals with Valen
Listen to me very carefully, because this is important, and everyone needs to understand it once and for all: ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING GOES ON PIZZA. There is no such thing as an ingredient that does not belong on a pizza. The limit does not exist. Pizza is the perfect food because it is all foods.
Also, in re: Technomancy. The saying is that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I feel like this Day of the Dead thing is that. I don't know where the tech came from or who did it, but it doesn't matter, it's some sort of technomancy we (and the Brakiri most likely) do not understand. Much in the same way that we don't understand humor outside of our own time and culture, which is how Rebo and Zooty are supposed to be understood by the audience. It reminded me of the very first joke ever recorded, by the Sumerians. "Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband's lap." Just remember, that joke killed so hard in Sumeria they etched it in stone.
22:49 - Centauri female... receptacles... are on the lower back, three on each side just by the spine. 32:47 - The "ghosts" are real. Remember that others can see them through the monitor (like Zoe and Dodger's foot). 34:50 - Rebo and Zooty are not SUPPOSED to be funny to us. It's illustrative that humor is extremely time and context sensitive. Imagine transporting some internet meme back to 1984; no one would get it. Or, conversely, there's that Sumerian "dog walks into a bar" joke that doesn't make any sense to us. Or imagine Whose On First presented to someone who doesn't speak English. Context and time period matter for humor and Rebo and Zooty are completely alien to us, the viewer, because the context is in the 23rd century Earth Alliance and we only get a very, very small slice of all that context. 47:50 - They weren't Centauri, they were human. Though probably the fact that humans and Centauri look superficially very similar is part of the reason G'Kar has a bit of a human fetish. After all, he can -do things- to humans that allows a little vicarious revenge and he's even allowed to LIKE them because they are NOT Centauri.
I don't remember that, but it was my birthday and I turned 21 that day. When Jeff said "September 13th, 2011" my first thought was "what was on my birthday when I turned 23?" but it's good that it was something that brought the world back to "the good side" and that it was entertainment. I can identify with that - even though wrestling is completely not my thing.
My personal theory is, Centauri women have only one place of docking, like human women. The amount (and diversity) of pleasure they get from each of their men's appendages, though... 'Oh Mamella! Lieutenant Amigio's number five is really great! And his number three isn't bad either. I don't care for his number four, though...'
I've always suspected this was a much better script that got tanked by bad Directing. I think the pacing didn't work and too much got cut such that too many punchlines didn't make the final cut. This is not meant as an attack on whoever directed this episode. Even the best of them have had projects they regret. We all have our bad days. 🤷
My personal theory is, Centauri women, like human women, have only one 'place of docking'. The amount of pleasure they get from each of their men's six appendages, however... "Oh Mamira, I'm in love with his number five, but his number three isn't bad either, but I really don't care for his number four"...
I believe Joe has said it was Neil Gaiman's choice. As usual, the scenarios these two spin out of assumptions and a little learning (i.e. "they're on TNT now") are full of shit.
If Susan did a visit and Marcus showed up she would spend half the time beating him up for what he did and the other half boffing him. The big question would be what order.
You guys talked a lot of nonsense about this episode and observed it poorly. I usually like your analyses but this time am disappointed. And furthermore there is nothing wrong with capers.
One missed opportunity -- they should have given us more of Morden's backstory (as revealed in the novels), as I think it would help connect him with his message here
@@hornorsilk2901 the book I was thinking of that had some of Morden‘s backstory was Book number7: “The Shadow Within.“ Are there other books that contain information about Morden’s backstory?
@@dll_Rhemuth948 Shadow Within is considered canon for that part of the story. You also get some Morden stuff in Jeanne Cavelos' trilogy (not mentioning the name to avoid spoilers).
@@dll_Rhemuth948 The books JMS said were canon were: The Shadow Within (Book 7) To Dream in the City of Sorrows (Book 9) P...C... Trilogy Centauri... Trilogy T...M... Trilogy
Oh, wonderful. UA-cam Comments… the place where foolish viewers spoil the series for Brent and Jeff, even after being told not to. If I were them, I wouldn’t even look at them.
I feel like Adira coming back was call back to what Vir said long ago, something about how none of their gods would deny Londo Mollari a single night of happiness. This was his one night of happiness.
Zoe touched me when I first watched it, now all these years later Zoe touches me even more.
As for Kosh's message, when the time comes, you will understand - I am sure of that - I shan't say if you are right or wrong or close.
Sheridan DOES tell Rebo that comics is important. He literally says "During the Clark regime, you were still saying things nobody else could say. Comedy is incredibly important". Regarding the ghosts, remember the call to Garibaldi. Lochley and Garibaldi could perceive each other's visitors. And regarding their humour, you're not supposed to get it. They're supposed to be impenetrable not because JMS hates them but because that's how you write "the funniest act in the galaxy 250 years in the future". The funniest person in the world from the 1770s, joking COMPLETELY without context, isn't that funny to the average 2020s reader either.
It's more like the reverse - what would a guy from the 1770's think of say the comedy of someone like Jerry Seinfeld. We are the audience from the past stuck with no context to 'get' the jokes delivered to us by Rebo & Zooty far into in the future.
@@dargron7614 Or Tiktok Meme Compilations. But that's just it, it works both ways. Time creates distance.
"Maybe I'm doing that thing where I put two people in a relationship they don't really have"... now apply that to everything you've ever said about Zack & Leeta!
don't forget the message from Morden: "You don't come to the dead for wisdom."
I'm sorry, but Sheridan DID say that what Rebo and Zooty did was important - he even gave a reason why it was important. I really don't get what your complaint is here because everything you say should have been said WAS said.
70% of what these two bitch about comes down to not paying attention. It's Cinema Sins for B5.
Yeah, but you see, they didn't do the Star Trek thing where they beat you over the head with the message like you're a 5 year-old, so it doesn't count. 🙄
@@oenrn I like to think they were just expecting one thing and so they missed it when they got another thing 🐒
@@TheFireMonkey It looks to be a trend where in the first 10 minutes (or from the title alone) of an episode, one or both of them will get an idea that they get attached to, and then if that idea turns out wrong, they spend the entire rest of the episode only looking for things to cherry-pick in support of an argument of why it was bad and ignoring any evidence that goes against that narrative. It's especially egregious when they complain about things not happening or being said that actually happened or were said in the episode, but they "missed" them since that would weaken their argument for why the episode is bad. Acknowledging that Sheridan had said it and then complaining that it wasn't elaborated upon enough to be meaningful would have been a valid argument, but wouldn't let Brent piss all over the episode and give it a zero, so he magically missed it.
Do not forget Morden´s purpose on the show was to ask and deliver what people want. Everyone who saw a ghost looked more at peace because they resolved something from their past. Garibaldi committed to Liz, Lockley said goodbye to her friend and finally knew that her death was not an accident and Londo realized what is truly important to him, not just intellectually, but he felt it. Lennier ignored his visitor and we all know what he wants. He does too, but he is running away from it rather than confronting it.
Personally I consider this to be a Lockley episode, we learned more about here here than in all episodes up to now put together.
Capers and anchovies is one of THE most classic pizza toppings in Italy. I'm shocked you didn't know that. 90% of all the pizzas I ate had capers on them.
I've heard that it was supposed to be Marcus that appeared to Lennier but he wasn't available. But having Morden appear actually makes it better especially with his revelation that Lennier will betray the rangers.
It DOES make it more poignant.
And when he assured Lennier that he was telling the truth, it tied back to their Za'ha'dum discussion where these two were trying to decide if Justin, Anna & Morden (& by extension, the Shadows) were telling Sheridan the truth or not.
Gotta love Babylon 5. Where the "bad guys" (Shadows) may be bad (but not completely) and not necessarily the way you think. And the "good guys" (Vorlons) are not really all THAT good either. And in many ways, are just as bad (or worse) than the bad guys, in similar ways.
@@sharkdentures3247 I think the notion of Vorlons being "good" flew out the window when they started blowing up planets.
@@GeneralDingo exactly my point.
I always found it amazing that Morden comes back from the dead for one night, and spends the whole night reading the newspaper.
@@Klaital1 but he was just catching up on current events.
One of the messages: comedy doesn't translate easily, which is why Rebo and Zooty are not funny to us. They are not meant to be.
Exactly, and so many people miss this point. Just look at movies in our own times, some I never found funny, though someone did, even if it was only the people that made them. Others were funny 20 years ago and fall flat today. Heck, there is a reason that Jerry Louis' movies are, today, thought to be absurd, but Peter Seller's Pink Panther series are still classics, despite having some physical comedy in common.
Actually, will add one more thing - across cultures, it may not translate at all. Our two hosts are looking at it in terms of comedy being used in America, for Americans, about subjects that affect Americans, and that works well. But just look at British comedy. Some of us get it, mostly, some don't think it is funny at all, and if it was commentary to on something specific to their different cultural ideals, we might not get it at all.
It is also that the writers did not want to try to write a top notch stand up comedy routine. Kind of like how the "Rome" series did not directly show Mark Anthony's funeral oration for Julius Caesar, as they could not compete with Shakespeare and could not use Shakespeare so they punted.
@mjbull5156 Maybe, but they could have opted to have them be their own descendants even, or heck, they themselves are comedic, so they could have come up with something. But, it is my understanding that it was expressly intended that "we" don't get it. If it has been funny to us, this wpuld have undermined the whole point - we don't have the cultural context for "why" nearly everyone got the joke, but we didn't.
@patrickelliott2169 That's their story and they are sticking to it!
Brent: what you are saying about Rebo and Zooty and comedy - that is what Sheridan said to Rebo.
This is the first episode since Knives in Season 2 that wasn't written by JMS. And Neil Gaiman made a solid episode.
JMS didn’t write the episode. Neil Gaiman did.
I'm fairly certain that not all forty billion Centauri are living on Centauri Prime, but spread out over multiple colony worlds and systems, space stations, habitats, facilities, and so-on. And by the way, Titan is a moon of Saturn, Triton is a moon of Neptune.
Connecting simple dots isn't something they do anymore.
We know how many people are on Centauri Prime, it was the reason they choose to fight at Coriana 6
@@blacko3539 Yup it was specifically mentioned by I think Londo when he says the Vorlons wouldn't dare to destroy Centauri Prime with IIRC 4 billion people on it - and then at another point Marcus explicitly says that the Army of Light is making its stand at Coriana 6 instead because it has *six* billion. Cold hard numbers, Coriana 6 had a couple more billion inhabitants than Centauri Prime
@@la_scrittice_vitaStopped back after a while to see how the Gaiman episode went down.
Frankly i wouldn't expect any more of them, they defend Lost for goodness sake 🙄
@@christinac127 Wait they often complain about episodes not progressing or seemingly not progressing anything or not having concrete narrative purposes... and they defend a TV creation of Mr Mystery Boxes, king of never going anywhere, all build up no payoff, JJ Abrams?
G'Kar sleeping in C&C was him being arsey & making a point. 😁
Yep, he was staging a political protest - placing himself somewhere as inconvenient as possible to make himself a constant reminder of his warning and impossible to ignore. As wise and enlightened as G'Kar has become, he still retains a measure of his old childish pettiness when he doesn't get his way.
Brent needs to rewatch this - Garibaldi did not miss his shot!
True. And I think that WAS an "unresolved issue" for Garabaldi.
NOT just the adolescent, hedonistic, "I didn't get to bang the cute, sassy GROPO." thing. But ALSO, the, "I didn't provide COMFORT and a final night of pleasure/ happiness to a brave, willing soldier (I was attracted too) before she went off to DIE.", kind of regret.
And I DO think Garabaldi "technically" cheated on Elise! (Whether the ghosts were "real" or not!) He might lessen his sense of guilt by 1/2 convincing himself that, "It was just a VERY vivid (wet) dream"! But I honestly believe that IF Garabaldi were ever attached to a Lie Detector & asked if he had ever "cheated", it would Buzz if he said "No". (Because, to HIM, it would be a lie.)
So yeah, Garabaldi IS a "good guy", but that doesn't mean he is a SAINT!
I imagine that you'll get many comments telling you that Neil Gaiman actually wrote this one!
A counterpoint but I think it's actually hilarious that Morden came back from the dead wanted a cup of coffee and read the newspaper! Lennier was the one wanting wisdom from the dead and then didn't like what he got but Mr. Morden was happy to be a little snarky guy yet again.
What is funny about Mr Morden, is that he was basically a slave to the Shadows, doing their bidding, not allowed to do what he wanted (cause Shadows don't know what they want and Vorlons don't know who they are). So Morden, finally at peace, got to read the news and wanted to drink some coffee, normal stuff for everyone. Morden is more at peace than anyone else who came back. And Lennier, who wanted to talk to the dead to seek wisdom, got someone who didn't have much wisdom in life. Brent and Jeff do not understand what kind of unresolved problem Lennier has, but to people who watch Lennier's character closely, it's very obvious what his unresolved issue is, and it Morden's message is foreshadowing of what is to come and why it will happen.
My take on Morden is that he was always a willing participant, so they didn't rewrite his personality like they did to Anna
@@busdriverbuddha he was a willing participant, but he was also a slave who had to do what he was told and nothing else. He didn't get to do what he wanted.
@@Petrosman well, sure, but he certainly didn't act that way. He talked and acted as if he had a say.
@@busdriverbuddha he was an envoy for the Shadows who were asleep 1000 years. He was explaining to them how they need to act to achieve their goals. That there are other ways to control Londo, that they don't need to kill him and stuff like that. He was definitely fascinated by them, but he didn't have free will to do whatever he wanted. The Shadows controlled him. He was their face.
I always thought Neil Gaimon wrote this episode.
It has not been stated in the show that Garibaldi is married. That's just an impression that Brent and Jeff.
Garibaldi said to Lise, “They’ll say I married you for your money…”
That more than impression. That’s a full on implication.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime The line can be read two ways:
- Now that we're married, they'll say I married you for your money.
- After we're married, they'll say I married you for your money.
It's really left up to interpretation at this point in the show. I won't tell you whether this is resolved later on.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime Ah. I had interpreted that as her inviting him to help run Edgars Industries (and that they weren't yet married) and that has was saying "if we went ahead and got married then..."
If Ivanova came back and saw Talia, it would be a show dominated by hookups from beyond the grave.
If these two were villains, I would sum up their obsession with telepaths not being a major part in a war that ended with a cease fire as, "How dare the city just give up before I got to use my dooms day weapon!!" Not every resource always gets used in a war, not every weapon gets deployed, nor do they all end as expected. B5 does this kind of thing all the time - we *expect* things to happen X way, but then the rug is pulled out from under us and something else happened. Heck, one of the things that may have pissed off Bester is that B5 acted without him and, by the same token, pissed of those at the battle is, "Where were you!?"
This was one of the episodes I was really looking forward to when you started. Glad you made it. When I first saw it in the original run i didnt know Penn or Teller (they are not known in Germany) still enjoyed it and it became more funny each time after i discovered them, watched their TV shows and such. I really admire how you managed to go through the whole thing, and not peek ahead.
I love this episode and it sets up the second half really well.
What if the point isn't about who the living would want to see to resolve thier issues. It's about who the dead would want to visit to resolve issues they didn't get the opportunity to when they were alive. Londo was hoping to see the first emperor, but why would the first emperor care to see Londo? Same for all those encounters.
Agreed, this seems more about who the Dead wanted to visit.
Adira died on her way to reunite with Londo, she would want to complete that journey.
Dodger died frustrated that her final night didn't go as she hoped, she'd want another go at it.
Zoe died feeling guilt that Lochley would blame herself, so she came back to absolve Lochley.
Mr Morden was probably simply after one more opportunity for mischief... or perhaps there was something more altruistic in his warning... nah, definitely mischief.
Whether or not this is an episode people like in Season 5, is 100% one of the most memorable of the season.
I always thought that Adira did deliver a message, but it was never spoken in the episode. "Dancing is beautiful and fun; but eventually, you have to put your dancing shoes away and get ready for the long trek to rest." Londo's long trek is about to start and he is getting his last dance.
42:38 Titan is the largest moon of Saturn
I mean we the audience do not know Rebo and Zooty, so we're not supposed to understand their humor and jokes. That's why we connect with Lochley who also doesn't understand them. We know that they're funny, and everyone likes them, but they're doing jokes that people that are familiar with their program understand.
Also I always had the impression that because Rebo and Zooty studied alien humor a lot, one of the reasons why Zooty is a mute, is because that little device is actually controlling him in a way. They probably got it on a dig or market on some alien planet, and it took over Zooty. Which is why he can't talk without this machine. They played into Teller's little gimmick but in the B5 universe.
And Sheridan literally said to Rebo what you said, that saying serious things through comedy is the reason to do comedy, and why it's important. This episode is definitely not for everyone, but it's one of my favorites in season 5.
But weren't Penn and Teller supposed to be funny in the 90s? I wouldn't know, I'm not American
@@calhackit9806 They like some things and dislike other things, same as all of us. We all struggled through early S5.
@@busdriverbuddha Penn and Teller are funny, but we don't know the characters of Rebo and Zooty. It's like old Shakesperean comedies or whatever, some jokes we understand, some we don't cause we no longer understand the context of certain jokes. Same here but it's the future and we don't know their show. There's a great video explaining why Rebo and Zooty are well written characters.
@@Petrosman Do we know that that was intentional or is that just an after-the-fact explanation because the humor didn't pan out?
@@busdriverbuddha it's intentional. It's Neil Gaiman's style.
Reebo & Zooty weren't supposed to be funny to us. That was the point. Comedy is subjective and ages very badly.
@@ogami7661 Isn't it good enough to state the point without denigrating the hosts?
They weren't even subtle about it. THEY SPELLED IT OUT!
@@MattLathrum Not when they spend so much effort on purposely being disingenuous, and not actually paying attention to the show. ESPECIALLY WHEN REBO AND ZOOTY (PENN AND TELLER) FLAT OUT FUCKING SAY THAT HUMOUR IS FUCKING SUBJECTIVE AND THEY ACTIVELY RESEARCH WHAT EACH CULTURE FINDS FUNNY!
I think those ghosts were real also, because Lochley and Garibaldi saw each others ghosts during their video call.
You both keep assuming Garibaldi is married now. Have you seen a ring on his finger? I sure haven't.
He said to Lise at the end of season 4 after a night of clearly romping around the sack, “They’ll say I married you for your money.” Without foreknowledge of things to come, that seems pretty clear, and at the very least extremely implicative.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime But have you actually seen a ring on Garibaldi's finger?
It was clear it was likely to hapen but have you seen that the wedding took place yet or a ring. We saw John got married with Michael all we saw was marriage was being planned.
I'm married and I have no ring on my finger, sometimes things are not what the look like.
Temporary sale is a thing in Judaism for similar religious reasons, and the script had similar customs in mind. Every Passover we're not allowed to own non-passover food, but nobody wants to clear their entire freezer for a one week festival...
So the entire Jewish community collectively sell our food to a non-Jewish person or group, for a nominal sum, organised by the rabbis. Then we buy it back afterwards. It's a nominal agreement to fulfil the religious obligation; nobody seriously expects to have a stranger show up at the door and demand their bread.
But the contract doesn't actually guarantee that, because it's not a sale if we get takebacks.
Just as Brent said, it's not a sale if you can't in theory renege on the deal and keep it.
I imagine the Brakiri ones works the same way.
I've sold my hidden breadcrumbs (and listened to the appropriate Dragnet radio episode), but the real estate analysis is a little incomplete. A lease of property divides rights (or "sticks" to those of us with 3 years of brain damage) between the landlord and the tenant in the same contract. When you sell something outright, "fee simple", then you have no further rights under that contract, and the new owner can do what he wants with it (subject to any controlling laws). That does not stop the parties from making a separate contract, which may or may not be on the same piece of paper, for the buyer under contract #1 to sell that same property back to the original seller at a set date and time in the future; they are separate agreements with different sets of rights and remedies, if that's the way you set it up in the first place.
This is fascinating.
I don't think Penn and Teller were forced on the show. I think they were friends with JMS outside of the show. JMS is a staunch atheist and P&T are huge in the Skeptics communities.
I really rhink JMS just called them up and ask "hey, wanna be on my show?" 🤔
Titan is a moon of Saturn. I remember when they landed the Huygens probe and we got pictures of Methane lakes and rivers.
I like how we got some Lochley background in just 3 words (Password: Zoe is dead)
Neat thing: At one of the 20th anniversary conventions Bridget Flanery (Zoe) was invited, and she was quite surprised at the fans remembering such a short scene and appreciated the fans a lot. I think Tracy Scoggins was instrumental in getting her the invitation to the con.
65!
Be seeing you!
The real question about this episode is how Londo and G'Kar is in this episode. The previous episode they were heading towards they were on a ship to centauri prime.
First that is not Morden, that’s Mister Morden to you
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Mister Morden
You get more of Valen's story in the books/comics/short stories
Regarding Ed Wasser's haircut, it seems the first thing he recorded after Morden's death was Mike Hammer: Private Eye, S01E05. He already has the new haircut there.
For anyone who's interested, his scene in the episode is at around 5:30. Incidentally, Denise Gentile (Lise) appears in this episode as well, starting at 10:20.
Just checked out the episode on Tubi, first time I’ve seen them in anything else. Needed to add a couple of minutes to those times to find them on Tubi.
@@martintoggweiler2343 Denise Gentile was in lots of things in the 80s and 90s, including the Dallas series finale
I know people who loved this episode and people who hated it - not many who didn't have much of a reaction though. I am one who loved it, though I have got questions even all these years later...
This is one which is mostly loved or hated, so I am not surprised when people go either way. I am one of the rare ones in the middle. I like it, and appreciate many things in it, but I can see the problems people have with it too. This is something common with Neil Gaiman writing stories for popular shows which are not of his own creation.
But I'm sorry, you are still in a sequence of stories which needed to be edited down to 1/2 as many episodes....
😊Did Lando not destroy the Shadows' ships on Centari Prime? Was he not ready to have Vir kill him to protect their planet from his bad choices ? Even though the Vorlons may have left after all of this and didn't destroy the Centari, because they were recalled, still didn't Lando feel he had the right to think he saved the day...and the Centari people?
Lol- the six places... They're in the small of Centauri women's backs. Never mentioned in dialog or books. Never comes into story at all. In fact, the only times you can even remotely come close to seeing it is when Londo shows the statuette of Li to... someone. There's also a larger one in the Centauri throne room, but even then it's blink and you miss it. JMS explained it once. There- that's a thing you know now 😂
As I said on the Brent Watches video, I like how this gives us more about Lochley's past. She was wild once, and after Zoe's death she cleaned up and became more in control. I won't say much about Lennier and Morden. Otherwise I think the visitations were to some degree random to be surreal.
I'm thinking maybe the Rebo & Zooty part *should* have been its own episode. It might have been good to have a broad discussion about the importance of entertainment and comedy. I suspect Neil Gaiman had to fill out the episode because the "day of the dead" story didn't have an explanation. That might be why that part of the episode feels like it rushed through the idea.
Ivanova's latent telepathy would have mattered in this season if Claudia had stayed on. How it would have mattered kinda depends on where your search takes you for the "original" season 5 plan or when you hear from JMS. I'd suggest you not poke around on the subject until after you've watched B5. :)
Having Michael O'Hare come back as Valen for this episode would have been so. Freaking. Stupid.
I liked this episode, it is very TNG, which is refreshing. It's the episode that brought me around on Tracy Scoggins.
JMS wanted Neil Gaiman (the Gaim were named after him) to write an episode in an earlier season but he was always too busy so it was a 'now-or-never' situation.
I suspect Lennier was hoping to meet Marcus instead of Mr Morden, maybe G'Kar would've met Lord Refa?
Capers are best in a Spaghetti Puttanesca; fast and easy to cook, it's fantastic.
OMG LOL!!! You Guys Crack Me Up!!! 🤣🤣🤣
This episode can be watched anywhere from episode 3 to I think episode 10. As long as you watch it within that range, you're good.
September 11th, 2001 was supposed to be my 27th birthday and instead I ended up feeling like I was in a political horror movie...
Zoe coming back might also be important to understand why she broke off with Sheridan. She and Sheridan got married early on right after graduating the Earthforce academy. I'm not sure how it is with two officers getting married in the military, but I'm guessing she was not yet over the death of Zoe and her past life. We can only guess why exactly they broke it off (didn't match characters, just didn't love each other as they thought they did, other issues), but seeing Zoe and getting a glimpse and Lochley's past life, we can assume or guess that she was not yet fully recovered or at least she didn't yet figure everything out and getting married to Sheridan so early was a mistake.
No disrespect, but you’re engaging in drawing lines between dots, as though there is actually an overarching narrative.
True, the dots seem to be logically placed, but JMS didn’t complete the picture. So the dots remain unconnected.
At the very least, they don’t contradict each other, particularly in relation to Lochley’s existing backstory.
As a sidenote: I don’t like much of anything Lochley brought to Season 5. I wish Claudia had remained onboard.
@@FallenHellscape I don't disagree that Lochley was a character quickly created to substitute Claudia Christian's Susan Ivanova. But her being married to Sheridan isn't a betrayal of the character or anything completely wrong. Brent and Jeff hated that part, and I think they just set up expectations and weren't happy when those expectations weren't met.
@@FallenHellscape I'd rather Claudia had stayed on too, but honestly, I think JMS did a good job fleshing out Lochley as a character and making her unique, instead of just Ivanova 2.0, especially considering he had just one season to do it. Ivanova had 4 seasons to develop as a character.
That said, I really like the Garibaldi/Lochley dynamic in season 5, which, if I'm not mistaken, was what got Scoggins the part.
"A bunch of false starts the ended up going nowhere"........
Brent, Brent, Brent... 100+ episodes under your belt, have you learned nothing? Still expecting payoff by the 45 minute mark?
100+ episodes in and I still have to stop every 45 minutes and talk about it. Document current thoughts and processes in the moment.
No mention that this screenplay Wasn't written by JMS Club 65? The remarkable Neil Gaiman penned this one and is largely why some of the themes did not feel as Babylon 5 but mor like a generic 1990s SFF episode.
42:38: Nope, Titan is the largest moon of Saturn, and the second-largest of the solar system, after Ganymede.
It would have made more sense if Morden had visited Vir and maybe said something vague about Londo’s future or the powerful allies he warned about before his demise.
The viewing order matters for this one because Londo and G'Kar are in it, but they're en route to Centauri Prime.
Also, you can't (completely) blame JMS for this one; he didn't write it. This is the episode that broke his writing streak.
I believe Penn & Teller's appearance was at their request...
Zoe and Morden came with profound messages (albeit at one remove for Zoe). Garibaldi and Londo just got to have one last good memory with a loved one.
Of the 40 billion Centauri, remember only 3 billion of them are on Centauri Prime. I guess they really do have a lot of colonies.
The dead were really there. Dodger talks to Lochley. And, to discout some shared hallucination zone, when Lochley talks to Sheridan, you see Zoe peeking into the camera.
Lochley made a very brief comment about how awful her dad was. It sounds like she ran away from home, to get away from a terrible home life.
Another missed writing opportunity: we never found out why G'Kar was so against the Day Of the Dead...
The six places is shown in a statue of the Centauri goddess of love and passion in season one. One male point is shown in detail also but that is as far as I will go so you can watch for it in your rewatch in season one.
💯 agree with Jeff about Morden's hair.
Re: Jeff’s explanation of Catholic mass structure. I went to Catholic elementary school high school, and spent one year at a Jesuit university. (Go Zags!) and I never learned any of that about the mass structure. Except for at GU, where we studied the gnostic gospels in depth. It’s really interesting as an atheist (now) to learn that that’s what they were doing/meaning. thanks for the overdue lesson, Jeff.
It's worth pointing out that the P&T casting as Rebo and Zooty *may* have been influenced by the move to TNT. JMS never said anything to that effect, but he did talk a lot about what production was like after the S5 pickup. It's possible thise issues were on his (and the rest of the production staff's) mind when it came to guest casting. Especially for a piece written by Gaiman.
"Valen: the After Years". Interestingly enough, as much as "after years" is a very obscure term you almost never hear in everyday conversation, I have recently come across it being used multiple times by Arthur Machen in his story "The Secret Glory". Not sure if it was more commonly used a hundred years ago, or if Machen was just as obscure in his time as it is today.
You're wrong about capers. I love them. I put them in pasta, in veggie salads, and I know, I'm not alone.
I think it was around this time when the second Babylon 5 comic book series: In Valen's Name ended with its 3rd issue. It has stuff about Valen.
A Halloween episode, Babylon 5 style.
65.. I didn't find Rebo & Zooty funny, either... and for 25 years, I've written it off because I have never found Penn and Teller to be funny, either - so I was wasn't surprised by my lack of reaction to them
I do enjoy the visits from the Dead here... Morden appearing to Lennier is the only one that felt out of place to me - fans at the time felt it should have been Marcus, but if I recall the actor wasn't available and the show runners really wanted to fit Morden in there so Lennier got him
I got two kittens from the Humane Society of the Pikes Peak region. Named 'em Rebo and Zooty. Loved 'em until they went over the Rainbow Bridge.
An example of legit jokes as separate from us in time as Rebo and Zooty:
"The late Mrs. Oldfield being asked if she thought Sir. W.Y. and Mrs. H-n,* who had both stinking Breaths, were marry’d I don’t know, said she, whether they are marry’d but I am sure there is a Wedding between them."
Hahahah, hilarious, right? Or
"It seems as if Nature, who so wisely adapted the Organs of our Bodies to our Happiness, had with the same View given us Pride to spare us from the Grief of knowing our Imperfections."
Titan is a moon of Saturn.
Centauri women have six slots at the base of their spine, three to each side.
Greetings fellow lurker of Grid Epsilon (GEnie Sci-fi roundtable to the rest of you).
I remember when Joe told us and was scrolling to see if anyone had it in the comments.
@@la_scrittice_vita Greetings! I wasn't on GEnie back then but I do remember reading it on the Lurker's Guide.
Centauri reproduction may sound weird, but here on earth female kangaroos have 3 vaginas and 2 wombs.
@@nbartlett6538 Just how long were you holding on to that particular piece of trivia before you finally found a conversation where it was relevant? :D
@@busdriverbuddha Not long actually, it recently came up on a QI clip!
I would say the ghosts are real, just as they had to reroute communications to speak to the other side of B5
I definitely remember a drawing of a naked Centauri woman with 6 slots on her back.
Two things guy.
First Britt you need to start listening a little better to What the characters say it might surprise you.
Second, Jeff there are the B5 books which is concerned cannon, and one of them deals with Valen
22:30 Jeff and Brent invoke Rule 34 - so now that video does exist somewhere on t'intertubes...
Listen to me very carefully, because this is important, and everyone needs to understand it once and for all: ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING GOES ON PIZZA. There is no such thing as an ingredient that does not belong on a pizza. The limit does not exist. Pizza is the perfect food because it is all foods.
Also, in re: Technomancy. The saying is that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I feel like this Day of the Dead thing is that. I don't know where the tech came from or who did it, but it doesn't matter, it's some sort of technomancy we (and the Brakiri most likely) do not understand. Much in the same way that we don't understand humor outside of our own time and culture, which is how Rebo and Zooty are supposed to be understood by the audience. It reminded me of the very first joke ever recorded, by the Sumerians. "Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband's lap." Just remember, that joke killed so hard in Sumeria they etched it in stone.
I like the way you think.
Why are the star trek messages not followed by a photon torpedo noise? Wouldn't that be more in keeping?
Did Londo and Adira do it six times? Or once with all six? Or maybe twice with three?
22:49 - Centauri female... receptacles... are on the lower back, three on each side just by the spine.
32:47 - The "ghosts" are real. Remember that others can see them through the monitor (like Zoe and Dodger's foot).
34:50 - Rebo and Zooty are not SUPPOSED to be funny to us. It's illustrative that humor is extremely time and context sensitive. Imagine transporting some internet meme back to 1984; no one would get it. Or, conversely, there's that Sumerian "dog walks into a bar" joke that doesn't make any sense to us. Or imagine Whose On First presented to someone who doesn't speak English. Context and time period matter for humor and Rebo and Zooty are completely alien to us, the viewer, because the context is in the 23rd century Earth Alliance and we only get a very, very small slice of all that context.
47:50 - They weren't Centauri, they were human. Though probably the fact that humans and Centauri look superficially very similar is part of the reason G'Kar has a bit of a human fetish. After all, he can -do things- to humans that allows a little vicarious revenge and he's even allowed to LIKE them because they are NOT Centauri.
Bye you guys, dad duty is important.
September 13, 1999 the moon was blasted out of Earth's orbit. Don't believe me, watch "SPACE: 1999" season 1 ep 1.
I don't remember that, but it was my birthday and I turned 21 that day. When Jeff said "September 13th, 2011" my first thought was "what was on my birthday when I turned 23?" but it's good that it was something that brought the world back to "the good side" and that it was entertainment. I can identify with that - even though wrestling is completely not my thing.
So Kosh confirmed existence after death ?
My personal theory is, Centauri women have only one place of docking, like human women. The amount (and diversity) of pleasure they get from each of their men's appendages, though... 'Oh Mamella! Lieutenant Amigio's number five is really great! And his number three isn't bad either. I don't care for his number four, though...'
zooty? zoot zoot...
The tone is different/off because Neil gaiman wrote it instead of jms
Club 65!!
I've always suspected this was a much better script that got tanked by bad Directing. I think the pacing didn't work and too much got cut such that too many punchlines didn't make the final cut.
This is not meant as an attack on whoever directed this episode. Even the best of them have had projects they regret. We all have our bad days. 🤷
"Cool concept that failed in execution" is what I think of most Neil Gaiman work, so this episode was no exception whatsoever -_-
Did you see he wrote the episode?
My personal theory is, Centauri women, like human women, have only one 'place of docking'. The amount of pleasure they get from each of their men's six appendages, however... "Oh Mamira, I'm in love with his number five, but his number three isn't bad either, but I really don't care for his number four"...
I suspect it was a case of what past actors can we get...
I believe Joe has said it was Neil Gaiman's choice. As usual, the scenarios these two spin out of assumptions and a little learning (i.e. "they're on TNT now") are full of shit.
I would've rather had Marcus come back to visit Linnear to give him the message that he was going to betray the Rangers.
There is a reason for that
Cheating has nothing to do with what you're doing with someone else. Cheating is lying to your love.
I vehemently, but respectfully, disagree with this assertion.
Ivanova's story would have been explained this season if she showed up. Boom tomorrow.
If Susan did a visit and Marcus showed up she would spend half the time beating him up for what he did and the other half boffing him. The big question would be what order.
@@charlesmaurer6214in my head canon it was always Talia who shows up for Ivanova. Maybe we are both right, I'll be in my bunk.
@@charlesmaurer6214Marcus: "It is fortunate I am dead. Neroon was easier on me."
You guys talked a lot of nonsense about this episode and observed it poorly. I usually like your analyses but this time am disappointed. And furthermore there is nothing wrong with capers.
John gave you bad advice, sorry.
One missed opportunity -- they should have given us more of Morden's backstory (as revealed in the novels), as I think it would help connect him with his message here
I thought Morden’s backstory in the novels was not considered Canon. Am I incorrect in that assumption?
@@dll_Rhemuth948 depends which novels, there are 11 novels and various comics and short stories which are canon.
@@hornorsilk2901 the book I was thinking of that had some of Morden‘s backstory was Book number7: “The Shadow Within.“ Are there other books that contain information about Morden’s backstory?
@@dll_Rhemuth948 Shadow Within is considered canon for that part of the story. You also get some Morden stuff in Jeanne Cavelos' trilogy (not mentioning the name to avoid spoilers).
@@dll_Rhemuth948 The books JMS said were canon were:
The Shadow Within (Book 7)
To Dream in the City of Sorrows (Book 9)
P...C... Trilogy
Centauri... Trilogy
T...M... Trilogy
Having Marcus visit Lennier and discuss unrequited love would have been an improvement.
I think Garibaldis wife is mentioned in the episode. Not by name though.
C'mon, Jeff, aren't you glad that the good citizens of Babylon 5 can now voice their concerns to Senator Rebo and Congressman Zooty?
Jeff, should you ever meet JMS, might want to keep your thoughts on that AI to yourself. That was Harlan Ellison, his dearest friend.
Rebo and Zooty not funny? It's obvious that you two have no sense of humor. I mean, "Zooty, zoot, zoot." Come on.
This show was a bit of TNT wanting to explore making out with the dead. Back when they still did the B horror with Mistress of the Dead Elvira.
Also Charmed and Buffy time frame.
Ha!
What's wrong with capers on pizza?
Some Americans have this thing where they like to dictate what goes and doesn't go on pizza. It's endearing and annoying at the same time.
Oh, wonderful. UA-cam Comments… the place where foolish viewers spoil the series for Brent and Jeff, even after being told not to. If I were them, I wouldn’t even look at them.
We have a screener. :-)
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime That's great to hear
Thanks for bringing politics in to B5. I hope you both realise you would be part of Clarkes night watch. And on the wrong side. Shame on you🤔🤣
False
A cult favorite film of mine is Penn and Teller Get Killed