I think the problem isn't engines, but engines that are too strong for how generic they are. Engines can be completely generic as long as they are not that strong, engines like these help rogue decks in general. Engines can also be pretty strong as long as they are very specific, for example if they have strong restrictions or if they need multiple cards. But engines that are both generic and strong hurt Yugioh, simply because they make Deckbuilding less interesting and decks less unique
Adventure engine when initially dropped: *generic as all heck* Adventure engine when third wave of support: *locked to Adventure only* YOU SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?
instead of making generic engines they should just add more support to rougue decks that needed or decks that people liked but were never good because of the lack of support
@@bangster1869 yeah like for example fluffal deck needs some kind of misc kinda card or any kind of going first card because you need to play toad in deck for example. All they need to add is a fluffal quickplay spell that negates first 2 effects that targets your fluffal /frightfur cards and maybe steal it and threat it as frightfur card so you can summon sabretooth without a real cost using it and/or make that card a big boy thanks to tiger and sabretooth effect
One of the major issues is 100% the engines being created that are generic and splashable in every deck. Engines have ruined the archetype format of the game to a certain extent. Generic engines removes deck-building skill, now you just hear players say they build a deck with all the best cards in the game and that's it. And that in itself is an issue when all you have to do is play all the best cards in the game removing any thought to deck building.
That's true. Destrudo, Jet Synchron, O-Lion and Glow-up bulb are one of the many unfortunate hits because Konami loves Halq that much. I'm a huge synchro fan and i completely despise halq for not leaving the tuners alone
Look the easiest way is to start locking players into archetype monsters. D/d/d does this well. If Gilgamesh did not say you were locked into DDD monsters and allowed you to link climb in to accesscode talker and baron etc… the boards you could get with out that little working would be insane. Just do that for archetypes
@@bangster1869 mind as well. I just wish machinex was a negate and a snatch. That alone would allow for the deck to be meta. Maybe add a restriction that you only get the negate if it was xyz summoned properly with two lvl 10 monsters. Getting an Omni negate with a snatch would make it basically a better Zeus for the archetype.
I AGREE!!! Halq and Verte should've stayed into their archetypes only (Halq summon only Crystron tuners and maybe a material be a Crystron Tuner while Verte restricts you to only summon Predaplant fusion monsters or at least material be either 2 Predaplants or even 2 plants. Yeah you can use superpoly for drago, but still). of course other engines should also have these restrictions, i'm just giving the example on 2 i absolutely hate.
The problem is ONE card engines with NO restrictions. Red Eyes Fusion stopped extra summons for the turn and Neos Fusion stopped Special Summons for the rest of the turn. So if you committed to one card combos, that was end of your conga line. One card engines either extend existing combos into unbreakable boards with Omni negates or reinforce them.
Correction, red eyes fusion “you can not normal summon or special summon on the same turn you use this card” meaning you can’t use it after you already normal/special summoned a monster, but verte just bypassed this and somehow was able to stay unbanned for so long.
@@jujubeanz009 well I miss interpreted what you meant, I was just clarifying. Looking back at my comment now, it can kinda be seen as rude when this was not my intention. I apologize
I think I agree with people just finding ways to break cards, but also think that bigger question is should decks be made only in archetype and lock you into it to keep them into archetype specific and from being to generic to be splashed into others
The problem with that method, which I believe is similar to what Cardfight Vanguard did, is that then you have to simultaneously develop new archetypes and continuously expand them, especially because many archetypes don't have enough cards to cover all of the roles. This would mean that people will eventually only play the strongest archetypes or the archetypes that most effectively counter others, which I'm sure is close to what already happens but now the problem would be exacerbated. Secondly, by forcing things to only exist in archetypes you eliminate any form of broad or generic support and force decks to be archetypes. Now there's no "dragons," "machines," or "dark warriors" there's only "Blue Eyes," "Cyber Dragon," or whatever would stand-in for the dark warriors, and while that may effectively be true for most types (I don't know the game or meta well enough to say properly) it would would still limit what people could do. To expand on an earlier point, if cards had to be locked in to their archetypes specifically, you would end up with an issue similar to Cardfight Vanguard where each new set of cards has to support a specific archetype (though in their case they use "tribes", I believe, as the means of categorization), which leads to different players getting support for their deck at different times and having to wait for the appropriate new set to come out. This also has the knock on effect that new sets have to be released more frequently, which is a pain for retailers and players to keep up with. Having said all this, I do agree with the sentiment that archetypal support should mostly be used for its intended archetype instead of being used as degenerate combos for other decks.
@@jacksonbowns1087 Cardfight Vanguard used Clans, which is a lot closer to to restricting cards to dinosaurs or dark warriors or what have you. Some clans had only one play style, some would have 2 or 3. they're a lot smaller than Yu-Gi-Oh though either way. I agree that decks locking you into only archetypal cards would be bad for a number of reasons, I argue that more cards should place restrictions that lock you into at least a monster type/attribute for the turn. That way you can still splash other pieces, but it's harder to just splash whatever's good at the moment.
@@zoesequeira5388 See, this is why Spright Twins is so cool. Despite being as good as it is, it has a lot of special summoning restrictions that force you into a particular deck building philosophy.
The game would be boring if konami locked you into a particular deck, I think instead of crying about how good soming is you should just come up with a salutation for it 🤷🏽♂️ just saying. I think structure decks with an hybrid engine is good for the game they just have make that it is balanced.
Engines can be both good and bad. Look at the Patchwork engine in Despia. It really gives the deck more gas while not being generic enough to be abused by strategies not related to fusion. On the other side of the coin we have adventure and DPE. DPE is enabled mostly by Verte being a bad designed card and the Adventure engine being too generic for how strong it is. I love it in my VW deck but I wont lie and say those cards arent a problem.
@@DarkSymphony777 and ban Gryhion in OCG just Illegal Knight is legal In Master Duel Rite and Enchantress are on two it feels fair is not so consistent
Verde isn't a bad design, ii just does miss that single line of text that says "you can only special summon X type/name of monsters" aka predaplants, if that was in the effect description you wouldn't be able to super poly or destiny fusion any of the other fusion monsters except that archetype that Verde belongs to but for some reason they missed that out, also to be fair some decks without some of the generic engines and boss monsters wouldn't even being able to play in casual, even less in ranked but at the same time already good decks getting better.
@@iTechGamingLOL the funny part is that, after playing predaplants, I can tell you predaplants didn't like using verte in the slightest regardless of it being in archetype or not. The card was definitely not designed with them in mind at all, so it would still be completely bad design still even if it had have been in archetype. This is because it being a link monster made it so predas could only barely use it sometimes. They *at most* used it for going second sometimes by sending super poly for Starving venom (which is actually completely in theme and similar to how crystal or clear wing is a "speedroid" card, but none of the speedroid cards mention either of them, so it wouldn't make sense to not let them use super poly generically) but the moment that branded fusion came out it got completely tossed in the trash. Verte is really just a complete mess.
I think archetypes should have some restrictions so it won't use as engine for every deck take Burning abyss for example like phantom knights using it as engine but not every deck using because of the monsters well destroy itself if controlled a monsters that isn't from they're archetype and they can only one effect per turn and once that turn
I have to disagree with you as to who's at fault for DPE. At most you can say that it's no one's fault. But no one can say that Konami didn't know it was useable as an engine, unless you're trying to say they didn't remember Fusion Destiny existed. There are a handful of ways DPE could have been good without being nearly as strong as it is. Just off the top of my head, a solid one might be locking you only into summoning HERO monsters the turn it revives a Destiny HERO would make it strong in archetype but limit its utility in other decks
Ever sence DPE was released I already knew ppl were gonna abuse my boy in other decks as an engine and I hated that from the start. Right from day 1 I was hoping Konami wud leave all of the other DH cards alone and either ban or errata DPE. I knew right away that DPE didn’t have enuf restrictions and it needed its own in-archetype restriction to prevent abuse.
I’m more mad at the fact that DPE works as a perfect Yubel support card but is just a generically good monster that’s being used as an engine. Please give actual Yubel support Konami please
I feel you're right, but for tangental reasons. Engines themselves can act as a nice support for various decks to come out, especially if they're being released in multiple support waves. A Water deck can rely on Diva and the Mer-Lanteans until their more specific support emerges, giving it a chance to stand up, for example. The issue comes with when one engine is used for everything, like Adventure. Engines like aforementioned Diva, the Zombie engine (Mezuki-Gozuki, Unizombie, Samurai Skull, Necro Ninja etc) Phantom Knights etc is very nice to have on hand to help deckbuilding. The issue for Yugioh, though, definitely comes in with how often the engine becomes the backbone of a deck, and the rest just backs it up. The sheer fact so many decks were considered Adventure + accessories says everything about how far ahead it was.
There is a solution for engines. It's locking them for the turn or even preventing certain actions during the turn it's played. Dragunity is actually a crazy good engine but because it locks you into dragons most decks don't even use it. But its an amazing engine but balanced. Having good boss monsters are what make engines worth it, but there's certain locks you simply can't avoid. If a card says "you can't special summon monsters other than water the turn you activate this card" then all of a sudden this card is only good specifically in water decks. It's generic enough that all water decks could use it but it would never be in a crazy pile deck because of the extreme lock. Windwitch is another engine that comes to mind. They can make a non destructible crystal wing in 5 summons but because you're locked into level 5 or higher wind synchro monsters, only like 2 decent decks in the game could somewhat use it. I will give you that brilliant fusion couldn't have been foreseen cause it started the hype, but there should have been red flags on card designs that could be similarly applied to future cards. We have a ton of cards that are ready to be broken but aren't simply because the boss monsters aren't good enough for it.
Some engines should lock into the archetype they’re meant to that way it supports that archetype exclusively. I’m a big advocate for erratas in Yugioh to fix cards that are part of broken engines because it sucks when certain cards get banned that belong to a certain archetype because decks outside that archetype abuse those cards
I intended to use Future Fusion as a means to summon Five-Headed Dragon, so when it was banned, I replaced it with Dragon's Mirror. I was new back then.
Current Era of YGO: most deck => adventure engine + DPE engine + handtrap engine (nibiru + maxx c. + ash + crossout + droplet + impermanence + ghost/psy) + called by the grave + something arc type.
That’s just sad, if you don’t fill your deck with those you almost automatically lose whenever your opponent has a good hand (not difficult at all with 40 card decks)
@@ThePro-ng4yt welp with new pack that has so many banish like mirrorjade and longyuan, or grave control like voivode, immune to destroy effect like borrelend or jet dragon, i doubt adventure engine or DPE will last long. but ofc new meta engine come to replace the old one like always. lol
Duel Links had one of the best counter to that. If a card is limited they can only use 2 cards on the limited list in their deck. So you can’t just stack your deck.
I remember years ago when people were arguing about how archetypes apparently ruined deckbuilding, since you just throw all the good archetype cards together or something like that. Funny how we came full circle on that.
Agree. Ygo player used to select 40 - 90 card from thousands card, from ground up to find best synergy. Creativity in ygo started to fade from when top player show their deck online for the world to see. Then konami worsen it with archetype by their built in strategy
I remember the crisis of hand traps and how they break the game a few years back I even advocated for the ban of ash. Now we have like 15 hand traps lmao
@@grimdeth2197 ash can negate any card or effect that can move card from deck causing it got large coverage (draw, add, sp summon, mill). The problem? All that only for small cost, no specific condition or any noticeable drawback whatsoever
I actually think engines are healthy for the game but only if they aren’t widely used like DPE, adventurer, etc. they also help fill dead spots with other decks, the best example I can think of off the top of my head are rogue decks. Lets say for example you have a control deck that lacks a way to add further pressure outside of what it can already do, boom add Eldlich. What if you have a deck that needs a way to send their S/T to the GY but they don’t have a consistent way, boom add souls (Eldlich is literally all I can think about rn sorry). I do feel like specific engines are fine if only rogue uses it or some meta decks use it but it makes everything stale when everything starts to use it (like how we all see what’s happening with the recent engines). Also you didn’t say this in the video (I think) but every deck has their reason to play an engine; prank kids play adventure to protect their starters, Tenyi to make fleur (and other stuff), dlink because uh, idk actually. I just wanted to say that second part RQ because it surprises me the amount of players that don’t put much thought into why x deck plays x engine apart from “engine good every deck plays it”. I haven’t played current format in a few months now so I’m not sure how accurate what I’m saying is right now but definitely let me know. Anyway this was a fantastic video and I really enjoy how long your videos are starting to get, you have some serious potential here
Literally every player that can afford it played adventure engine in that format and almost every deck except some played dpe/dragoon and verte package. It kinda kills the game that every single deck ends with almost same board thanks to engines
There's a problem. These engines allow decks to break their power ceilings and compete against higher tier decks. Look at Prank-Kids, it only needed the extra push which the Adventurer engine provide to protect its plays. Sure, it may "lose its identity" but, what is the alternative? Fade into obsolescence? 8:00 Verte, along with Halqifibrax, Electrumite and Ahashima were made to support the mechanics of their archetypes, not as support for their archetypes. They should have been generic to avoid confusion.
I think when it comes to engines it definitely depends on whether or not it was 100% intended to be one to be healthy. Look at the incantation engine, it was designed from the ground up to be an engine to help ritual decks be able to be consistent. Now look at Vetre, it was designed to be legacy support for Predaplant but was made generic and became a horrible engine.
I wouldn't really call Verte an engine really, more like a button that dispenses a boss. Konami has also followed a fairly consistent pattern in regards to OP cards it hits. If the card or payoff in question supports a planned deck (Verte with HERO, Halq with a number of lore Synchro decks, Terrortop with XYZ, Firewall/Summon Sorceresss with Links, Zoodiacs surviving as long as they did) then they typically ban or limit cards around it. If it was a card that was not meant to be as good as it was they hit it quickly or launch rather targeted hate against it (Grass looks Greener banned, Kaijus released to dunk Towers, the horrendous Plant Tuner limits after they were power crept, smacking the Dragon Rulers multiple times). The fact that they banned stuff around Verte for so long, and only hit it after DPE and Branded became meta, tells us they knew it was broken and made it so far ahead of time in hopes no one noticed. Probably why the OCG hit Dragoon so hard so fast. It was legacy support that Verte accidentally made playable. (In the TCG it was annoying as sin but very beatable) Engines are more like Adventure or Zombie, as it is multiple cards that work in tandem to provide a certain chain. Singular cards that act as a Boss Dispenser are to them as a baseball bat is to a car. One can break the other as long as it can swing hard enough, but the other will always win in consistent results and durability.
Just wanted to hop in but you use verte as an example but "in theory" its a horrible one because "on paper" predaplants always been designed as an archetype meant to use your opponent's monsters as material fodder (not denying how they are played, just saying that their intended playstyle was supposed to that). So (again on paper) it makes sense that Verte was supposed to be super generic with the idea being you steal an opponent's monster to make it then immediately use its effect to turn any one monster into a dark before using it fusion effect to potentially steal another monster. All other monsters that can be defined as super generic engines share the same idea on the concept they were "intended to be healthy" but in execution obviously players would abuse which is kinda a double edged sword.
@@reikurokaze3988 I'd argue most of those super generic and pushed cards, especially when part of an archetype that randomly don't Tribal-lock you, aren't intended to be healthy. They're meant to force the previous meta out of rotation in favor of the newest cards. Would you really argue Zeus, Drident/Broadbull, Branded Fusion, DPE or True King Calamities were intended to be healthy for the game?
@@clayxros576 The only card you listed that's doesn't follow a trend is zeus who as far to my knowledge "was meant" to be generic strong xyz card aka what it was intended even then zeus has a "harder" restriction in the fact an xzy needs to be battle first which is nowhere as free as these later cards. All other cards you mentioned are all in archetype monsters (branded fusion as well) that had unfortunate side effects of being generic due to the archetype they were made for especially considering the time of their release. They were meant to be just what it says on the tin, "support for their archetypes". It just so happens their archetypes are naturally "generic" which in turn makes those cards "generic". For instance HERO monsters are lumped together nowadays and not separate so it makes sense DPE would become a card that locks you into HERO monsters and not just D.heroes. Branded being an archetype intended for albaz to bounce into different extra deck monsters using opponents monsters given the situation only for lubellion and mirrorjade to come along with pretty strong effects and lax materials requirements. True king of all calamities was intended for a deck to special summon lv9's to summon it only for VW to come along with them popping out lv9 with the greatest of ease. Drident is a weird case because zoodiacs themselves were busted by that they ignore their inherent restrictions for being xyz monsters, drident was just icing on an already busted cake. Long story short yes "in the moment of their inclusion", these cards were meant to be healthy because "on paper" were supposed to have the inherent restrictions that were remedied as yugioh slowly switched to a faster format, by extension it why decks receive support in many shapes of forms. So it's not a black and white case of pushing for new meta but inherent problems that come from designing certain archetypes the way they are when the game itself doesn't have set rotations. Arguably ban lists (and by extension erratas) are what forces changes in the new meta if we want to go down that route since again we always have access to 10k cards.
@@reikurokaze3988 Lets define our terms here. Unhealthy, to my definition and many others, refers to either a single card or an engine that overpowers any tangental strategies which would itherwise have potential. Now ill go over some problem cards again with added context. Verte completely sidesteps the HERO limit, and Fusion Destiny barely has a xenolock at all. "For the rest of this turn" is so laughable it may as well not be there considering DPE is always made as the last part of an end board. Never was that thing going to be healthy, on paper or otherwise. There's a reason people were calling for its or Fusion Destiny's ban before it was even released. Albaz and Branded has been intended to be meta for awhile now. Albaz himself was released during Borreload/Dragonlink's dominance, a clear anti-meta/anti-dragon card which Konami has a history of making to move the meta along. The fact they ever had to go as far as Branded Fusion and Mirrorjade is an admittance the archetype was underperforming. True King Calamity was indeed intended to be made by the True King archetype on release. However Virtual World being easily able to churn it out turn after turn, and Konami LETTING THEM for multiple formats, is a pretty clear message they made VW with the knowledge that would happen. It was a single card problem (like Zeus Verte and Branded Fusion) that already existed and they simply made use of it. Now, how were these unhealthy? DPE-Verte have acted as the main point of decks ever since they came out, or as an easily accessible backup even other decks with other DPE-Verte's can't handle. Staples are fine, even generic ones. But if a BOSS MONSTER and it's dispenser button are in nearly every deck aside from Flowandreez, they are overriding other options by being so far ahead of what other options there are. Branded Fusion. It's a searchable Foolish Burial, it gives free extention or negation, it makes everyone question if other Fusion decks are even worth consideration. And on top of it sets up your hand-grave for future turns. Shaddoll-Invoked dropped off the map after it came out because it became the new best Fusion deck, and suppressed the Swordsouls on top of it. All because of 1 card that has so much support you'd think it was played by Yugi Moto. And this was known as soon as it was spoiled. True King Calamity is an off button for the opponent, and is generically accessible. Any deck that can turbo out 2 lvl 9s was making it despite other decent options, and VW completely ignored its own VERY POWERFUL tribal options because True King was just better. It's dominated any Lvl 9 based deck ever since it came out, and was protected until Konami had their profit. There is a linking line between these cards. While reading them literally they may be archetype dependent, the meta and simple observation of events shows they're functionally generic. And take over the decks they're put into. If a card is so strong its inclusion in a toolbox immediately becomes the goal of the whole deck, its unhealthy. Plain and simple. DPE-Verte, Branded Fusion, Zeus, True King Calamity are examples of that, and the fact they were protected over multiple banlists rather than hit shows blatant amd willful favoritism, regardless of health of the game.
The thing with these engines is that they lack restrictions/their restrictions are not harsh enough. In the case of the DPE engine, you can use Fusion Destiny at the end of your combo to get around it's restriction, or use Verte at then of it as well. Adventure Engine prevents you from activating Normal summon monster effects, but many monsters can activate their effect when Normal Summon or Special. It's not that they should create weak boss monsters to prevent that, but make them perform their best when used in the correct archetype.
Perhaps Fusion Destiny should of had a Red Eyes Fusion type restriction on it, they function similarly being able to grab materials from the deck. Though Red Eyes Fusion is perhaps a bit too harsh, maybe a limit on two or three special summons (with the fusion counting as one) or something.
But that’s what makes it different from other card games, and kind of the reason why I love it. Not having set rotation is what makes creative deck building so cool, using cards that are as old as dirt because they’re busted with a new archetype is really cool, and I like to see when players come up with cool decks that aren’t necessarily locked into a certain archetype, but just a pile of cards that all work together. Verte is obviously broken and 100% deserves it’s place on the banlist but I think the other engines are fine.
I think the biggest problem with this game isn't necessarily the engines, but something else you touched on briefly. The fact that this game is so unbalanced that you have to go meta to win and trying other strategies is a literal death sentence. See I'm a big fan of using a stall deck, but there are so many OP monsters these days that stampede over my cards. I put three or four cards on the field on my first turn and by the time my opponent's turn concludes I've already lost the game somehow. Even if I put a ton of staple cards seen in most meta decks, a lot of them clash with my other strategies. Even when I get a pay-dirt opening hand, the opponent is blowing up my entire field and hitting me for lethal in one or two turns. Its not even a fun game to play anymore. I'm not a sore loser a loss is a loss, but when you won a ton of games back in the day because multiple strategies were viable at the time and then years later lose consistently game after game to the same three deck types in one or two turns it drains all the fun out of the game.
Agree. Old school YGO felt like actual chess, whereas new YGO feels like writing a program to win digital chess matches. New YGO feels too robotic, like the soul of the game was lost.
I think the way to fix this would be a "choice restriction banlist" similar to what bushiroad does with cardfight vanguard where these engines are restricted to their archetype when it gets busted in other decks. Such as dark dragoon being in a dark magician or red eyes deck only or Destroyer Phoenix enforcer sticking to hero decks only so that they don't get banned or hurt for being abused in other things which keeps the archetypes from being hurt by bans or rewrites of card effects.
Easy to do in a virtual setting like Master Duel, but painfully impossible in paper formats. What you are looking for is a rotation of formats, like Pokemon and MTG. Say the last 4 years of cards being 'standard' and last 10 being 'extended' and all cards being 'eternal' with a banlist for each one. It lets people play in the groups they want to play, cards retain value for longer periods of time, and its easier for Konami to make changes without "upsetting the player base" since any change only affects a potion of the players.
@@Tsukasa-TheWizard Bushiroad has done a pretty good job establishing a selective restriction like I outlined, it's all in how they handle sign up sheets and deck lists. I am against rotations like mtg and pokemon use because it invalidates the cards you spent money on making it hard to bother staying in the game for some people. I ended up switching to commander in MTG for that reason.
@@spitfire9434 goes both ways though, as not doing rotations invalidates previous investment since you have to keep investing more into newer cards to stay relevant. Older players that don't want to spend a lot and learn new meta are pretty much screwed. Sure, that selective restriction can work, but that really only favors one group of players, whereas rotations favor more groups and are better with maintaining and regaining player base.
Why not just create more restrictions on cards Like lock to types attribute levels and even just archtype locking and limiting generic stuff and design around types attributes levels stats and other stuff that limits how many decks the cards can be used
Honestly I kind of wished there was a clause that rewarded people for playing pure variants of decks or at least decks that mostly consist of cards that share the same lore.
ok, so here's my take. what you say it's right but, the verte and adventurer engine are a mistake to begin with. if they wanted to make verte a strong support for predaplant the answer was simple, just specific that when you use the fusion effect you have to summon a predaplant, this would've stopped the engine quite a fair bit if not totally because not every predaplant fusion can be spammed into every dammn deck like DPE since they need specific cards that unlike dpe don't take that much space and you can play those cards everywhere, and if i remember correct some of them even requires other fusions to be summoned and that takes space in the extra deck too. now for the adventurer engine... what can i say 2 free negations all searchable from a 1 combo card that you can get in billions of way seems way too strong for me. ok it can be stopped quite easly so that's that, but you're gonna waste handtraps and negations on that and get baited by that only because the guy can put up those things for besically free. to me it seems like they just want to create strong combos just to see how much far they can take it idk.
Archetypes will always be cooler cause archetypes have their own style of play and splashing a minor engine gives consistency but still lets the archetypes personality shine through
I believe you 100% but unfortunately, allow me to quote a certain main character from the duel monsters English dub series. “ We duel to gain power and to be the best, not to have fun. “ you see, unfortunately this game has gotten way too expensive in order to just do it for fun. They want to win so they can win more cards and win tournaments and potentially make a profit off of it. So they use the best cards that are currently available to us. And unfortunately it just so happens that those are the engines.
The amount of times you say its our fault for figuring out basic combos is alarming because it implies that konami has given its own employees sub master duel meta resources when researching cards. If true, its still their fucking fault for not giving them the resources to look at fusion spell/monsters own archetype. If brilliant fusion had never existed and was announced today; it would take the community a whole 5 minutes to figure out the go to monster. Its not hard, and there are no excuses, especially when it comes to fusion monsters.
i play casually with my friends for the most part, we build our decks with themes/archetypes/characters in mind. no engines, no overreliance of meta combos and engines... i am yet to NOT have fun playing yugioh! the game used to be about building decks that have the potential to get you out of any situation; but not because you have the engines to fill your board with negates and floodgates, but rather by outplaying your opponent and planning ahead. it's not just the engines, it's how konami has consistently sped up the game's pace and changed the mentality behind what the limit of card abilities should be
Exactly the game was great when it came out. Now its just so fast paced and competitive that people who enjoyed the game for what it was now cant really enjoy it like they use to
Well that’s just any casual vs competitive debate for most games. The games fun until everyone is trying their best to win, which means to play more boring things that unfortunately are just objectively better. The main issue is just no rotation. Fast paced can be fun if there is a back and forth. But since cards never get rotated any generic card gets labbed to all hell and it can limit design because there are too many cards to consider when making new things. Like last format I had hella fun because of the variety but now it’s basically just adventure + insert name here. Floodgate and handtraps are annoying but also a necessary evil at times (moreso handtraps than floodgates, some of those really don’t serve much of a purpose but to limit gameplay and are way more abusable)
@@DKaelynd I mean you can go back and play goat/Edison for that but that’s also a solved meta which means you will eventually try everything there is to try
the magic of yugioh has always been the excitement of being able to play blindly against the opponent by following the basic rulesets while being "Surprised" by their effects or card abilities if you didn't know their effects like they did. always felt like a conversation or battle between two people. and don't get me wrong that is still a major part of the game's inherent design... however the problem arises when there's so many cards and so many ways archetypes work and cards synergize, it's hard to keep a game like this consistent without constantly adding new things that directly counter anything broken or flat out banning the broken stuff. since it's a trading card games, more cards will always be the choice, and reprinting is never an easy thing. it is what it is and we gotta live with it. and i do have to end this on the note that konami does make good decisions sometimes and a lot of the archetype designs are super fun to play... it just doesn't feel fun when the game is relegated to a 1 player game. like in fighting games, if your character has a flowchart that is unbreakable and keeps advantage, they're playing 1P mode and you're sitting there with two options: block or die. basically the equivalent of going second against a full board with decent backrow and a bunch of negates lmao
To me, the card's artwork is more intriguing than the stats, foil, and effects. Just look at Gryphon rider. That thing is a beast, surely it must be a tough monster to battle or destroy... oh. Its a generic Special Summon and negation card. Point is: I like Yugioh's art designs and archetypes that has a theme to its deck and playstyle. But, nowadays, its all about that competitiveness and money. Konami took all of Takahasi work and turn it into a money generator. Sad. Rest in peace Kazuki Takahashi.
This gonna be my 2 cents but I dont think engines are the true issue. I believe its the state of the game. Yugioh is a more unique card since you really dont need hard resources to play unlike other TCG games like MTG or FoW. Therefore everything is usable as long as its not on a banlist. Another thing is yugioh doesnt have format protection as well, things dont cycle out and next series of cards just have to be stronger than the last because the newer set wont sell unless something can affect its meta game in someway. I believe the game state needs to change in a more dramatic way that doesnt need the banlist help. I would like them to try to adopt more formats or rotation so very lil can get out of hand. Something always has to be better than the last thing in yugioh and its rare to see returning deck types come back. Like tele-dad from start to finish was teir 0 to teir 1.5 after a few formats. This is just how i think it is, im not disagreeing but i believe there other issues than engines.
1. I don't think engines are inherently bad. Some decks use specific engines because of synergy/weakness offset and that's cool and healthy. Engines get problematic though when they're auto-included in 90% of decks. Like the Zoo engine, like the Brave engine etc. 2. While I do agree that eventually creating broken stuff by accident is unavoidable in any card game, I'd still blame it on the company. If it's in the game, someone will break it, that's just how games work and it's the developer's responsibility to fix it. Konami knew about from deck Fusions being broken with Verte, yet they still didn't preemptively ban it b4 DPE came out.
Engines are my favorite thing in yugioh, they're only problematic when they have 0 restrictions and/or are too strong to the point it homogenizes deckbuilding Engines should be emerging properties of decks, something like how 2 level 4 monsters can make a 4 mat zeus by stacking some utopias together. This is a cool engine with obvious costs, restrictions, and use cases. Decks that can put out 4s but struggle board breaking would love this, for example Engines are what make deck building in yugioh so fun. They're the best thing about the game but can also be its hubris
The problem with blaming the players is the theory of the "optimal strategy". Given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of a game. While it is impossible for Konami to do RND for every possible combo, its inevitable that players will eventually find a way to break cards in ways they were never intended, especially with a card pool as vast as Yu-Gi-Oh. The term "blame" doesn't really apply for the players since it was something that would happen inevitably anyway, it's just a matter of time until someone finds the combo. Great video, well thought out points! 🤙
exactly its the developers responsability to make the best way to win be the fun way, not the players having to choose between the fun way and the optimal way
@@drillygo6984 the point is, they are doing that, if were not blaming the players then it's no ones fault, look again at the adventure engine, before that released , the most important resource that most decks use is the normal summon, so they thought that maybe restricting that will make it so that it can only be used by some decks and definitely not the normal summon reliant meta at the time, but then players realized the power of a free omni negate as long as they build their decks in a way that doesn't use normal summon effects. and so players went that direction completely contrary to what they thought adventure was gonna be, again "players will optimize the fun out of a game", if the optimal way to play isn't fun then its the game devs fault but it's not right to completely blame them because it was never their intention to have it happen this way
@@raeserec535 but you all talking as if you knew for a fact that Konami never intended these cards to be abused. These cards that you claim Konami overlooked are the same short printed high rarity and chased cards of the sets. Almost as if Konami intended them to be good so they would sell product by power creeping previous cards.
@@drillygo6984 That's honestly how they get you to buy the new cards they put out, by making it so that they are better than what we already have, it's something that has been going on for the game's entire history. Power creep is something that is unavoidable, and for the stated reason of players attempting to optimize the game, because obviously people who play want to be able to win, therefore printing better, more powerful cards will push people in that direction. Because of this, I believe that what you previously said about making "the best way to win the fun way" isn't always something that can be accomplished, because players will always cherrypick the best cards they can whenever a new set comes out, rather or not it's "fun" isn't the priority, and as was stated in this video, I don't think that's something they can design a way to prevent. You have to realize that players will always look for ways to use their cards in ways that can make it easier to win, which is ultimately what leads to archetypes that weren't originally intended to be played in the same deck together getting paired with each other to supplement the deck as a whole
@@drillygo6984 Konami of America rarity jacks sought out cards that they know were popular in the OCG. Konami JP typically has boss monsters and character cards as higher rarity. The example I like to use because I know it is Archfiend Eccentric, a highly sought out card at the time for being both MST and Exiled Force wrapped up into 1 Lvl 3 generic scale 7 monster that also gave access to Falling Down, and was sought out for over a year as Ignights and Magispectors came out. When Duelist Alliance came out in the OCG it was only a rare with 2 starter decks including it as a common, but in TCG it has only ever been a super rare except for the single starter deck it was included in and Infinite Gold (where it was a common and rare respectively, but rare was the lowest in PG packs), this was also the set that started having more Super Rares per set, but with the same pull chance, making it harder to pull. Oh also it was believed to be short printed, which the OCG doesn't do. So please keep in mind that it is KoA that is doing that with the cards it knows are gonna be highly sought out, so the designs aren't being made to be abused.
Since I started playing Master Duel, I've come to respect the "Once per turn" rule of cards. Dealing with players repeating using the same cards effect in the same turn by sending the card to the graveyard or returning it to the hand then summoning it again is extremely annoying and boring. I've also grown bored seeing the same combos with the end result of a negate board that limits me from doing anything unless I have the right cards in my opening hand. I'm an old fashion type of player who enjoys building decks around an archetype. Also, as for Destroyer Phoenix Enforcers, they could've given it a harder summoning condition. Like having a level 6 fusion monster as one of it's fusion material. That would have prevent it from becoming a engine without weakening it.
While I agree with your thoughts, I don't think we should be made to feel bad for breaking the game. I think it's actually really impressive when people are able to come up with strategies that nobody was ever able to think of
Breaking games can be impressive, but when that means elements of a game are banned because of unintended interactions, it hurts the playing experience of other players because once something is banned, even those who just want to have fun using something as intended no longer has the chance. Sometimes just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
@@seandobbins2231 yeah but Yugi oh is a competitive game. So breaking the game down and it’s cards gives you the advantage so you can win more. If you have a chance to utilize another engine to further enhance your plays your going to do it because you want every advantage to win the match, money, tournament ect. Every game and every aspect of our lives is trying to find ways to get ahead of the competition. Even if it means breaking a certain interaction or using something it wasn’t intended for.
@@zethroth0077 except Yu-Gi-Oh isn't always competitive, as many just want to have fun playing the game, but can't just play what's fun for them because if you don't play certain combos, you'll lose and losing all the time isn't fun. I get some do play professionally, but professional players with any game are generally a minority. Also, when a card is banned that's meant as support for an archetype or for some general purpose because it's used as part of a broken combo it means those archetypes, etc, as well as the players who want to play them lose out because they can't use them at all, which hurts the game. The true irony is that most of the people running these combos like engines who are trying to be competitive are just doing it because they found out from someone else, aren't innovative, and generally won't even get a chance at national or world because they're just playing what's necessary just to keep up with current meta, not to actually succeed. As with any game, doing things that break it seem fun at the moment because you get to do crazy stuff, but it ultimately hurts the game because if unchecked, being effective while playing reduces your options since you have to do specific things just to keep up rather than play what's fun for you, and when the methods of breaking a game are checked, it typically results in bans, also limiting options, even for those trying to play the game as intended. I get the drive people have to want to compete and be the best, but it should just be because they know how to play better, not to break things that hurt or ruin the fun of others. There's a lot of people that would love to get [back] into the game, but don't or is short-lived because of people trying to break the game. In some communities these breakers are considered toxic players, but for some reason a part of the Yu-Gi-Oh community doesn't see that. I'm not going to tell anyone not to play how is fun for them, but I will say what the effect of certain play styles are.
I have mixed feelings, a lot of engines are meta defining with each release and are hard to deal with when they blend in already top tier decks that can lead into a very toxic gameplay that's not fun for the opponent. But also engines are what make rogue or old fun casuals decks playable in this day an age. But there is a line where if you draw a card and it's from your deck archetype and not the engine and you feel like that's a loose condition the thing went too far.
I disagree. I run Adventure engine, and DPE engine in exactly 0% of my Casual/Rogue decks. Engines only work in overpowered archetypes like Twins, that can make their entire board off 1 starter. A deck like Lair of Darkness, or Mayakashis is absolutely crippled by opening with a Destiny hero dasher, or Drackoback the rideable dragon in your hand. Also casual decks do not have the link/discard fodder which enable these archetypes to run.
I feel like one solution for the engine issue is to make them less generic, we need more cards that support specific types and attributes. I love engines like Tri-brigade since they're good, but you don't need them in a tri deck if it's good enough on its own, and you can only use them in tri-types. If we had engines more along the lines of Tri-brigade where it was a small boost to a specific type, then engines wouldn't be so bad. We just need cards to be less generic. I feel the same way with bosses like Savage, Apo, and Barrone as well, they're too generic.
full agree on savage (as a pure rokket player) at least give it the stipulation of you NEEDING a rokket tuner in order to get him out. Borrelend i think has the same 'generic' summoning conditions (3+ effect monsters) but you'll never see it outside of anyone playing rokkets cause it's quick effect negation NEEDS rokkets in the grave to revive.
@@Yomi2012 I think that link should have had restrictions on what you could summon, like only simmorgh monsters, it was begging to be abused at some point, sadly
I feel the same way, they just should have made strong engines exclusive to their archetypes. One of the decks that does this perfectly in my opinion is Evil Eye, you can search and search cards but only inside the archetype. Now in master duel everyone using the brave token engine, and if you manage to stop it, they start the burning abyss or the hero engine. Every deck looks alike and ends up in the same boss monsters with multi denies
yeah engine broke sometime when not work together but yes if you play deck that help build around you it will help decl nut look first how fusion is and i dont know about blue eye but it rare card which you can use fusion phoneix then blue eye cuz in turn you use xyz to stop spell when other to play... but my guest is more what i ask is use ash blossimg depend if you want in or not... have any question feel free to ask .
Man, I've always loved speedroids ever since they came out. They reminded me a lot of synchrons. Terrortop was the main enabler for speedroids when they came out, but due to how easy it was to go into a rank 3, people started using it a lot in BA. so they ended up limiting it to 1, which really hurt the consistency of pure speedroids. That led to me having to throw in the windwitch engine, as well as invoked to help with consistency. I still use that deck to this day. It really sucks because, yes, ik that speedroids now have more support and more searchers, but let's be honest, none of them really live up to terrortop.
Gotta disagree on the DPE take, it released into a meta where anaconda/dragoon already existed, anaconda is so broken that it should/does restrict all fusion monsters development. Anaconda will either need to be permabanned across all versions of the game so fusion monsters can be powerful in their own archetypes and easier to get out or get its effect changed to let players only summon predaplants(even then he would still function as an engine)
I think discussions around engines are usually flawed in the sense that they ignore the reality that certain archetypes are designed a certain way. Take a look at Destiny Heroes. They've been used as an engine since its inception. D-Draw, Mali, Dark Grepher, etc all these effects do stuff that synergizes with each other. Therefore it's no surprise that DPE as an engine happened. They gave the engine archetype a boss monster so of course it would be used, regardless if cards like Verte Anaconda or Destiny Fusion existed. Hell, some mad deckbuilder could figure out a way to use Synchro Fusionist to fetch Fusion Destiny, which I suppose is the point in the second half of the video. If Konami wanted to release more balanced retrains of engine cards, they could. But I think that's not what they want. They want people to play the game, and the best way they can accomplish this is to print stuff that people get excited for. Adventure, DPE, generic ED monsters, handtraps, all of these are enjoyed by the playerbase at large.
The real problem is that Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't really have set rotation. Old cards are sometimes pretty nutty paired with new stuff. Don't get me wrong that's one of the coolest parts about Yu-Gi-Oh. Being able to literally use 90% of the cards that ever came out. But there needs to be some form of set rotation.
there is no such thing as deckbuilding anymore, you play whatever is the best engine for the deck your playing, HT's and interupts, then the must have staples, by the time you add all that there's barely anyroom for the deck you actually want to play, one of the main reasons why Pile Decks are so common where they just run "good Stuff" and nothing else.
The issue is Konami not hitting the cards that deserves the hit. Instead of limiting Terrortop and Silent boots, why not hit and limit Dante? Instead of banning or limit level 1 tuners hit Halq who's causing the issue? I understand they need to make a profit, but it just doesn't seem right to penalize another archtype due to the tomfoolery one card is causing. That's just my opinion on the matter.
In my opinion I think the game would be more fun if players would just make solid archetype decks, and of course throw in a coulpe extra deck monsters of what ever they want that works really well with what they're playing with. Me and my friend, when we make decks we build around one archetype. Like he has a pure lyrilusc deck and I have a pure resonator/red dragon archfiend deck and a pure DD/DDD and we have a blast with those. We both agreed to stay away from cards like ash blossom and others that suck the fun out of the game.
The "problem" would still exist, because: 1) All archetypes have good and bad cards, so everyone would play only the best cards of an archetype. 2) There are archetypes better than others. An archetype from 5-8 years ago is less likely to beat a modern one.
@@MrJuan_Vzla well not really, for example blue eyes has been around for a while and it just gets more support which makes it better. Some don't get any support because no one wants to play them. Cloudians have very little support. But if more players would play it, Konami might make more support in the future. Really all I'm saying is I wish players would play archetypes the way they're meant to be played with their own extra deck monsters, and with one or two extra of the players choice. Perfect example, red eyes dark dragoon, in my opinion i think he should only be used In a dark magician or red eyes deck.
I disagree with the point that konami didn't design adventure to be an engine, there's literally 1 card that makes the token which is the point of the archetype, and it was clearly designed to be a 1 card gryphon rider deck. They didn't put any restrictions on them as well, which was definitely a conscious decision. Invoked was also designed to be an engine and is similar to the adventure engine in many ways
I feel the same about most engines but, a few of them like tenyi, sword soul are fine because, they have a more natural synergy rather than oh I'm using this one card that belongs to a certain arc type that you can use in any deck that doesn't necessarily boost your deck directly it is just used to beat your opponent when they use up most of their resources.
Engines can be a good thing, if they aren't overused. Like Dark Beckoning Beast making Curios from one normal summon. They can be used in a Sacred Beast Deck, but if you used in anywhere else that's what I'd call creative. What are good non-engine cards? Lightning Storm, Solemn Judgement, etc. Do you want everyone to run strong individual cards with little synergy?
I think sometimes is konami's fault and sometimes might be the player base as you said. Because there is no way the designers of the game couldn't see when cards are too generic and Im not talking about engines only this includes boss monsters. Sometimes is indeed our fault because we find strategies to break some cards however you cannot deny that some of the cards designed were too generic from the very beginning.
So imagine trying to compete at Locals with Cyber Dragons without Engines. You actually Can't compete without the Branded Engine to get into both Fusions like Chimeratech and Mirror Jade
Engines do stagger the game. I also strongly agree that they rip away a archetypes identity. Especially when trying to play competitive with older decks. Like branded seems to be the new engine now. I play blue eyes and with the profiles i see you apparently have to play only 5 blue eyes cards and the rest branded just to make a "blue eyes" deck viable.
Sangan only triggered off being detached off an xyz for like 2 weeks before they changed the rules on how triggers work from under xyzs because it was recognised it was too good
The problem is always that too many cards are very strong *and* completely generic. Most engines wouldn't even be called engines if they would restrict you a lot more. Some do restrict you to an element, type or extra deck card type and those are sometimes fine, but even that can be too generic if the card or engine is too strong. The way to fix 90% of cards and overall problems with the game is either slapping a hard once per turn on cards or heavily restricting your special summons for that turn.
My honest opinion is that archetypes should be more locked into their own types. Playing a fiend archetype? Well now you're locked into fiends! Your archetype has multiple types? Well then you're locked into your own archetype! Many cards are just too generic for their massive benefits. Imagine if halqi locked you into synchro summons for the rest of the turn or verte required 2 predaplants to make.
I completely agree with you. I've never liked most of the cards that are used for engines (dragoon, dpe, Adventure etc.) because it takes away the unique personality of the players deck and once you see these cards out, you'll always roll your eyes out and say "Ah s**t, here we go again". Not to mention you basically loose to the same cards. That's the main reason i really dislike generic easy to summon beast of a boss monsters like Savage Dragon and Acsess Codetalker. You're basically the dead horse who's getting beaten and it gets draining and boring.
Yeah, cards that just ends with the same result are the most anticlimactic to deal with. It's why I've said for the longest that all these pool of generic cards could be the detriment of the game because the banlist can only hit so much too little where other decks that could mainly play it become unplayable.
I think a good solution are self restricted engines, like windwitches, only wind decks can use the windwitch engine reliably and they even suffer from not being able to summon xyz and links. But this makes that not every deck could use engines, if adventure locked you out of the extra deck i think it would be a lot less played, konami normally locks cards in a lot of archetype (like floo) to avoid this, but i think that if they stopped locking into archetypes only and start lonking into types and atributes the game state would be better. A lot of engines have no restrictions so you can play all of them at the same time, theres pratically no deck variety in this game.
I don't want the game to get too archetypey. Imagine every spell and trap locking themselves to one specific random monster name. It's the pain I feel everyday.
I think engines can be fun: they make it so that you don’t have to have pure decks and can splash some more interesting moves in decks. BUT as someone mentioned I think engines should not be as generic as they are now, they should only complement specific decks. But I’m no expert whatsoever so yeah my opinion does not count that much
I'm just glad my deck whilst not very decent has had hold itself even with these new metas and engine cards. I Feel very bad for other players that had their fav cards harmed by these new strategies.
Wow… this video is actually very interesting, it reminded me of an old conversation I had with a friend, saying that Konami came, and thought every single one of the plays and strategies you can do with a card, or many, but I always thought that there was no way that they would think about everything, like the noble knights example you gave.
Another thing about engines is that it forces everyone to play like 10 handtraps in one deck as well as their own engine to counter the op’s engine. This makes deck building incredibly restrictive and really boring to play. YGO now just a game of who wins the coin toss and builds an unbreakable negate board first while using the one card engines as a means to exhaust the opponent’s handtrap resources so they got nothing for the next turn (Im looking at you adventure tenyi)
I agree with this 100% a few generic or popular spicy cards in a deck with an identity can be really cool but a mash of meta stuff should not work as well together. I've also been in the position of getting the cards of the deck im playing limited or banned because some other random deck was abusing it. DPE ain't even that bad if you get rid of vert. Literally stopped playing because I got tired of going against adventure everything.
To be honest i dont agree with dpe being entirely our fault i mean yeah the card is a good designed destiny hero card but its way too generic the artwork shows that is a fusion betwen plasma and og enforcer they could just make the card require plasma for its fusion material to avoid being splashed into other decks but they just make it almost any destiny hero and i think that is konami fault at least a little bit, if the card shows enforcer and plasma why not make plasma one of their materials i mean is a perfectly good card played in heroes as intended also the newer fusion shining neos actualy requires the fusion materials it uses so i think its konami fault at least a bit
This restriction wouldnt matter as people would just splash Plasma into their Decks and Use it the Same way… BTW is Plasma a stronger Card than DPE in my opinion 😅
@@auranecropolis2848 i know but letting the room for even more generic bullshit is what broke dpe and yeah they could still just use plasma and deal with it but at least it would be an argument at their favour also plasma is just a skill drain with an absorb with zero protection whatsoever who requires you to go - 3 to summon it im not sure if that is better to the super splasheable quick effect disruption and draw 2 + special summon that is extremely hard to get rid of
Your points do broadly apply, and you give some OK examples (Smoke Grenade - I can give my own example as well: I doubt Konami saw it coming that Gryphon being 7 would facilitate Rose dragons into Baronne Halq), but the examples of DPE and Adventurer are SO bad. Konami R&D aren't totally stupid and very well saw coming that 7 additional copies of calledby was gonna be, if not broken, very strong. Konami R&D also aren't stupid and very well knew, when designing a *_Destiny_* HERO *_Fusion_* monster, that Verte could send the card called *_"Fusion Destiny"_* . They just released it anyway because they had other priorities in mind. We can speculate: they probably wanted DHERO support because it fit the theme of Burst of *Destiny*, they probably wanted to boost HEROes' go-first potential & resilience to boardwipes such as Raigeki and Nibiru (DPE keeps itself as a resource through both) - we can guess this from the fact that they also released D - Force around the time, a card that counters boardwipes also.
Also something that goes unmentioned is Konami R&D most certainly creates cards with the awareness that they could be used in ways that they do not foresee; the reason why they nonetheless design cards like they do (with sometimes what turn out to be overly minimal restrictions) is because they just consider that creativity to be part of the game. Freedom in deckbuilding is very important for this game and they do not want to squash it by archetype-locking every single good card*. *They could do that, if they wanted to. But they don't. It's a choice they make willingly. They are taking risks in balancing to let the players generally have more options in gameplay.
I think I have a scenario that I would love to hear the comments feedback on. I have currently built a Gaia the fierce Knight deck which is from what I heard a going second deck so I can't guarantee it I'll go second every time even when playing with my friends they want to win too so they'll make me go first sometimes. So I added a branded engine with mirror Jade so it helps me in going first in case I lose the dice roll. So with that scenario am I technically hurting my Yu-Gi-Oh gameplay by adding an engine into my deck or is that justifiable.
many strong card/engine can be fixed if they errated them to be exclusive to the deck(s) that they were meant for from the beginning (adding a clause to make anaconda unusable if the player summon a non-fusion monster from the extra deck, making only allowing the player to special summon brave token or monster that refer it after using aramesir)
I would personally be a little more ok if DPE effect "did" target, allowing certain archetypes to have a little more protection. I don't think the card by itself is that OP, but how easy is to get with verte and how easy is to use as an engine, you can slap DPE in almost every deck, we have a problem with it as an engine, not as a destiny hero support. it would be silly to say I have a perfect answer, I only know as a player, it sucks to build your deck around the DPE meta
no offense but I think using the example “the gem knight player in the anime used the gem knight card” is not a very powerful point. Konami makes the cards, if they don’t want cards to be splashed everywhere, they can make them lock, like branded fusion. If verte locked you into predaplants, hell, even just PLANTS, he would be much less offensive
You seriously are blaming players for engines? And you think a lot of the modern ones aren't Konami intentionally including it? No, it's super obvious how intentional Adventurer was, DPE is super obvious when Anaconda exists. Konami needs engines to exist because it creates extremely high demand cards that -everyone- needs. If engines didn't exist, the only overlap (and therefore high demand) cards in the game would be hand traps, and they can't just print those every set and expect relevance. It's easier to print an engine, ban it, and print another engine. You're not giving Konami a lot of credit. The balance of the game as it is now is intentional. We're not 2003 Konami who barely understood their own game.
the dpe engine has the same issue as dragoon verte. if not for verte, the dpe engine would have to relly on a hard to search spell. how else would you get fd, best way probably is to run 3 lonfire blossoms, predplant scarrab and cobra. Which can relies on the normal summon.
simple fix make every official tournament archetype deck manditory it wont fully fix it but it will slow it down. No crossover between archetypes unless specicfically desigend by cards in the archetype, and allow generic cards in any archetype.
It makes more sense to give that deck its own support engine. If the engine is generic enough for rogue decks to use, theyre generic ebough for meta decks to use, therefore when a rogue deck wins it's usually because of luck or the opponent using a copied deck list that they dont fully understand.
My biggest problem with engines just in my (incredibly casual) experience is the difference in power for decks. I bought a charmer structure deck, and my older brother added dark magician cards as an engine. Except now, although I win against him more often now, if feels like I play a dark magician deck that I added a few charmers to
100% agree with this I've been thinking this since PK Rusty. I feel like one solution to this could be to make extra deck monster be archetype locked more. If True king needed a true king card to summon it never would have been banned.
I think the overall problem is the abundance of strong generic options in general. There are engines that support specific deck types like impcantations for rituals or punk for synchros, which are fine. But on top of the engines mentioned in this video, there are a ton of link monsters you can throw into just about any deck with space in the extra for them (accesscode, appo, borrelsword, knightmares). Between engines, staple cards like the pots and handtraps, and these extra deck monsters, it can feel like decks have so little of the actual archetype they are playing that it's just another engine
IMO just about every extra deck monster should be part of an archetype, and should strictly require at least 1 in-archetype non-token material to summon. Ex. Halqi should require specifically a Crystron tuner, Verte should require a Predaplant, Auroradon should require a Mecha Phantom Beast, Final Sigma should require a Mathmech tuner, Accesscode Talker should require all code talker materials, etc. (all specifying non-token of course) Also, for DPE, it shouldn't have been able to revive _itself_ . Simply adjust the graveyard ability to read "...except 'Destiny HERO Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer'." and it would be far less of a problem card while still retaining its strengths. The extra deck shouldn't be a super toolbox where you can just jam every generic broken card into and have access to them all at all times. Imagine if you had full access to your sideboard at all times and could just use cards from it whenever as though they were in your hand, even in game 1. That's essentially what generic powerful extra deck monsters do. Look at Goyo Guardian, it was so strong it had to be banned, then they made it _not_ generic and it became balanced and fine instantly.
@@yerinanon "[card] is thematically [flavor concept], therefor it _should_ break the game, warp entire formats, and warp all deckbuilding so every single deck in existence forces in a completely unrelated engine solely to play that card" Yea... *no.*
The "our fault" argument makes no sense. If Konami can't foresee these situations to some extent, then they are really bad at making their own game. Of course, there will always be one or another weird combo that you can't imagine, but that would still be their blunder.
I really can't agree with your take that it's the players fault for the engines, what are we supposed to do then? Purposely ignore the OP interactions that may be released? On the other hand, I don't think Konami cares as much about the balance of the game as they care about selling product, of course they love people buying grand creators to get their new 300 USD engine and they will love people getting boxes of the Ishizu sets just so they can play them in their Tearlaments
I mean they can just use wordplay inside of the description like they do some of the time like you can only use the card if you have a set amount of that archetype in your deck or whatever have you that can easily stop a lot of that engine stuff. Duel links and master duel does this I believe so the tcg and ocg and start using that method of only being able to play cards if you have a set amount of other cards from said archetype or it will be a dead card in your deck or many dead cards
I miss the old days of yugioh when the game came out. Strategies and unique decks were a thing. Now its meta and speed decks. Have to win turn 0 to turn 3. Have to make the game unfun for your opponent... I ran a tier 1.5 Dark Paladin deck when Spirits and Water decks were top tier. Those were the good old days where a game takes longer then turn 3 for each player. When the game could go either way... now it's over quicker then Saturday morning cereal... Though Yugioh did one thing right. The reprint aspect.
Imo one of the worst restricted decks in my life was gimmick puppets. I hated it so much, that there was a restrictionsummoning on most of those cards that limit you to only using gimmicks and only using dark maschine xyz. That was until i saw the current gamestate with those overused generic bossmoster. At that point those hash restrictions made sense to me and i think most boss monsters should always have that too, even if there is a possibility to not get played at all. DPE is in my book totally konamis fault as with verte. For DPE they could have made restrictions, when he gets summoned back, same with every very strong effect card. As for verte: why did they made the materials so generic? Make it 2 predaplant monsters and this card will only be seen there.
lol you just contradicted yourself in the dpe/dragoon argument. why can't dark magician and red-eyes have dragoon, but destiny heroes can have dpe? why the adventurer engine argument also just sucks. how are we supposed to play this as it's own thing when the non-engine cards just suck (magicore warrior, the field spells, the traps and the equips that aren't dracoback suck so much ass, it's unbelievable). And after seeing the mess they did, the next wave of support just locks you into cards related to the adventurer token (thesea is just a better magicore warrior, but it locks you, the new continuous spell locks you as well) also, why shouldn't we exploit the cards? it's a game where the objective is to win, so shouldn't we use the best options? if you really want the cards to be balanced before release, why not let partnered creators test them before and not let just one person decide? you can clearly do that and it works. if engines weren't a thing, a lot of cards would just fall into obscurity and never be played, and that's what happens with a lot of archetypes.
We have a lot of cards now.. Archetype-lock engine is now possible.. Generic spells and traps can still be added.. But for others they can be fixed by making it an archetype only to prevent them from being used as an engine for other archetypes..
I think that maybe the more broken of the effects should have been hard baked into its archtype. For example, if we took red eyes dark dragoon and it's negate effect could only be used if dark magician was present. It might change how we use and abuse engines in the future as it might behave differently in another deck.
Adventure is a Negate, Defence and Bounce to hand in one card. Also Konami just morph those engines with their deck, like making you unable to special summon monsters not from series. It would be engine or deck situation
I think the problem isn't engines, but engines that are too strong for how generic they are. Engines can be completely generic as long as they are not that strong, engines like these help rogue decks in general. Engines can also be pretty strong as long as they are very specific, for example if they have strong restrictions or if they need multiple cards. But engines that are both generic and strong hurt Yugioh, simply because they make Deckbuilding less interesting and decks less unique
Adventure engine when initially dropped:
*generic as all heck*
Adventure engine when third wave of support:
*locked to Adventure only*
YOU SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?
@@halodragonmaster all i see is a solution to a problem.
instead of making generic engines they should just add more support to rougue decks that needed or decks that people liked but were never good because of the lack of support
@@bangster1869 yeah like for example fluffal deck needs some kind of misc kinda card or any kind of going first card because you need to play toad in deck for example. All they need to add is a fluffal quickplay spell that negates first 2 effects that targets your fluffal /frightfur cards and maybe steal it and threat it as frightfur card so you can summon sabretooth without a real cost using it and/or make that card a big boy thanks to tiger and sabretooth effect
One of the major issues is 100% the engines being created that are generic and splashable in every deck. Engines have ruined the archetype format of the game to a certain extent. Generic engines removes deck-building skill, now you just hear players say they build a deck with all the best cards in the game and that's it. And that in itself is an issue when all you have to do is play all the best cards in the game removing any thought to deck building.
The other problem is Konami not banning the problematic cards. Like lvl 1 tuners that got banned because of halq
That's true. Destrudo, Jet Synchron, O-Lion and Glow-up bulb are one of the many unfortunate hits because Konami loves Halq that much. I'm a huge synchro fan and i completely despise halq for not leaving the tuners alone
Konami sees Halq is still being used and then proceeds to ban every single tuner in the game
@@bonzey9895 Hmm Destrudo?
@@ag4640 Destrudo The Lost Dragon Frisson used to be banned for a while because of Halq until recently where they put him on limited.
@@bonzey9895 But what does Destrudo have to do with Halq?
Look the easiest way is to start locking players into archetype monsters. D/d/d does this well. If Gilgamesh did not say you were locked into DDD monsters and allowed you to link climb in to accesscode talker and baron etc… the boards you could get with out that little working would be insane. Just do that for archetypes
that is a great way ngl
ddd is my favorite deck
@@bangster1869 mind as well. I just wish machinex was a negate and a snatch. That alone would allow for the deck to be meta. Maybe add a restriction that you only get the negate if it was xyz summoned properly with two lvl 10 monsters. Getting an Omni negate with a snatch would make it basically a better Zeus for the archetype.
I AGREE!!! Halq and Verte should've stayed into their archetypes only (Halq summon only Crystron tuners and maybe a material be a Crystron Tuner while Verte restricts you to only summon Predaplant fusion monsters or at least material be either 2 Predaplants or even 2 plants. Yeah you can use superpoly for drago, but still). of course other engines should also have these restrictions, i'm just giving the example on 2 i absolutely hate.
@@bonzey9895 yea it’s an easy fix but a lot of Aratas that need to be done. Which we know konmi doesn’t like doing that
The problem is ONE card engines with NO restrictions. Red Eyes Fusion stopped extra summons for the turn and Neos Fusion stopped Special Summons for the rest of the turn. So if you committed to one card combos, that was end of your conga line. One card engines either extend existing combos into unbreakable boards with Omni negates or reinforce them.
Correction, red eyes fusion “you can not normal summon or special summon on the same turn you use this card” meaning you can’t use it after you already normal/special summoned a monster, but verte just bypassed this and somehow was able to stay unbanned for so long.
@@blade7phosphorus696 that’s what I mean by extra summons.
@@jujubeanz009 well I miss interpreted what you meant, I was just clarifying. Looking back at my comment now, it can kinda be seen as rude when this was not my intention. I apologize
No
I think I agree with people just finding ways to break cards, but also think that bigger question is should decks be made only in archetype and lock you into it to keep them into archetype specific and from being to generic to be splashed into others
The problem with that method, which I believe is similar to what Cardfight Vanguard did, is that then you have to simultaneously develop new archetypes and continuously expand them, especially because many archetypes don't have enough cards to cover all of the roles. This would mean that people will eventually only play the strongest archetypes or the archetypes that most effectively counter others, which I'm sure is close to what already happens but now the problem would be exacerbated.
Secondly, by forcing things to only exist in archetypes you eliminate any form of broad or generic support and force decks to be archetypes. Now there's no "dragons," "machines," or "dark warriors" there's only "Blue Eyes," "Cyber Dragon," or whatever would stand-in for the dark warriors, and while that may effectively be true for most types (I don't know the game or meta well enough to say properly) it would would still limit what people could do.
To expand on an earlier point, if cards had to be locked in to their archetypes specifically, you would end up with an issue similar to Cardfight Vanguard where each new set of cards has to support a specific archetype (though in their case they use "tribes", I believe, as the means of categorization), which leads to different players getting support for their deck at different times and having to wait for the appropriate new set to come out. This also has the knock on effect that new sets have to be released more frequently, which is a pain for retailers and players to keep up with.
Having said all this, I do agree with the sentiment that archetypal support should mostly be used for its intended archetype instead of being used as degenerate combos for other decks.
@@jacksonbowns1087 Cardfight Vanguard used Clans, which is a lot closer to to restricting cards to dinosaurs or dark warriors or what have you. Some clans had only one play style, some would have 2 or 3. they're a lot smaller than Yu-Gi-Oh though either way. I agree that decks locking you into only archetypal cards would be bad for a number of reasons, I argue that more cards should place restrictions that lock you into at least a monster type/attribute for the turn. That way you can still splash other pieces, but it's harder to just splash whatever's good at the moment.
@@zoesequeira5388 See, this is why Spright Twins is so cool. Despite being as good as it is, it has a lot of special summoning restrictions that force you into a particular deck building philosophy.
I like to make decks that isn’t focused on archetypes. And I need engines and generic cards for them
The game would be boring if konami locked you into a particular deck, I think instead of crying about how good soming is you should just come up with a salutation for it 🤷🏽♂️ just saying. I think structure decks with an hybrid engine is good for the game they just have make that it is balanced.
Engines can be both good and bad. Look at the Patchwork engine in Despia. It really gives the deck more gas while not being generic enough to be abused by strategies not related to fusion. On the other side of the coin we have adventure and DPE. DPE is enabled mostly by Verte being a bad designed card and the Adventure engine being too generic for how strong it is. I love it in my VW deck but I wont lie and say those cards arent a problem.
It's telling that even Konami realized the issue with adventure token and made the new spell that makes the token lock you into it
@@DarkSymphony777 and ban Gryhion in OCG just Illegal Knight is legal
In Master Duel Rite and Enchantress are on two it feels fair is not so consistent
I swear to god that venture is tbh busted and toxic.2 move with spell get a bounce and negate
Verde isn't a bad design, ii just does miss that single line of text that says "you can only special summon X type/name of monsters" aka predaplants, if that was in the effect description you wouldn't be able to super poly or destiny fusion any of the other fusion monsters except that archetype that Verde belongs to but for some reason they missed that out, also to be fair some decks without some of the generic engines and boss monsters wouldn't even being able to play in casual, even less in ranked but at the same time already good decks getting better.
@@iTechGamingLOL the funny part is that, after playing predaplants, I can tell you predaplants didn't like using verte in the slightest regardless of it being in archetype or not. The card was definitely not designed with them in mind at all, so it would still be completely bad design still even if it had have been in archetype. This is because it being a link monster made it so predas could only barely use it sometimes. They *at most* used it for going second sometimes by sending super poly for Starving venom (which is actually completely in theme and similar to how crystal or clear wing is a "speedroid" card, but none of the speedroid cards mention either of them, so it wouldn't make sense to not let them use super poly generically) but the moment that branded fusion came out it got completely tossed in the trash. Verte is really just a complete mess.
I think archetypes should have some restrictions so it won't use as engine for every deck take Burning abyss for example like phantom knights using it as engine but not every deck using because of the monsters well destroy itself if controlled a monsters that isn't from they're archetype and they can only one effect per turn and once that turn
I have to disagree with you as to who's at fault for DPE. At most you can say that it's no one's fault. But no one can say that Konami didn't know it was useable as an engine, unless you're trying to say they didn't remember Fusion Destiny existed. There are a handful of ways DPE could have been good without being nearly as strong as it is. Just off the top of my head, a solid one might be locking you only into summoning HERO monsters the turn it revives a Destiny HERO would make it strong in archetype but limit its utility in other decks
Ever sence DPE was released I already knew ppl were gonna abuse my boy in other decks as an engine and I hated that from the start. Right from day 1 I was hoping Konami wud leave all of the other DH cards alone and either ban or errata DPE. I knew right away that DPE didn’t have enuf restrictions and it needed its own in-archetype restriction to prevent abuse.
@@baileydombroskie3046 literally all they needed to do is ban verte and thats what they did lol. DPE was only an issue because of vert
I’m more mad at the fact that DPE works as a perfect Yubel support card but is just a generically good monster that’s being used as an engine.
Please give actual Yubel support Konami please
@@Saltymoles or ban DPE and keep Verte
@@mysticmisc4585 Verte would keep having Problem interactions in the future tho
I feel you're right, but for tangental reasons. Engines themselves can act as a nice support for various decks to come out, especially if they're being released in multiple support waves. A Water deck can rely on Diva and the Mer-Lanteans until their more specific support emerges, giving it a chance to stand up, for example. The issue comes with when one engine is used for everything, like Adventure. Engines like aforementioned Diva, the Zombie engine (Mezuki-Gozuki, Unizombie, Samurai Skull, Necro Ninja etc) Phantom Knights etc is very nice to have on hand to help deckbuilding. The issue for Yugioh, though, definitely comes in with how often the engine becomes the backbone of a deck, and the rest just backs it up. The sheer fact so many decks were considered Adventure + accessories says everything about how far ahead it was.
There is a solution for engines. It's locking them for the turn or even preventing certain actions during the turn it's played. Dragunity is actually a crazy good engine but because it locks you into dragons most decks don't even use it. But its an amazing engine but balanced.
Having good boss monsters are what make engines worth it, but there's certain locks you simply can't avoid. If a card says "you can't special summon monsters other than water the turn you activate this card" then all of a sudden this card is only good specifically in water decks. It's generic enough that all water decks could use it but it would never be in a crazy pile deck because of the extreme lock. Windwitch is another engine that comes to mind. They can make a non destructible crystal wing in 5 summons but because you're locked into level 5 or higher wind synchro monsters, only like 2 decent decks in the game could somewhat use it.
I will give you that brilliant fusion couldn't have been foreseen cause it started the hype, but there should have been red flags on card designs that could be similarly applied to future cards. We have a ton of cards that are ready to be broken but aren't simply because the boss monsters aren't good enough for it.
Some engines should lock into the archetype they’re meant to that way it supports that archetype exclusively. I’m a big advocate for erratas in Yugioh to fix cards that are part of broken engines because it sucks when certain cards get banned that belong to a certain archetype because decks outside that archetype abuse those cards
@@Barcapower10 aka firewall dragon, since it got locked to cyberse has it caused any real issues?
I intended to use Future Fusion as a means to summon Five-Headed Dragon, so when it was banned, I replaced it with Dragon's Mirror. I was new back then.
Current Era of YGO:
most deck => adventure engine + DPE engine + handtrap engine (nibiru + maxx c. + ash + crossout + droplet + impermanence + ghost/psy) + called by the grave + something arc type.
That’s just sad, if you don’t fill your deck with those you almost automatically lose whenever your opponent has a good hand (not difficult at all with 40 card decks)
@@ThePro-ng4yt welp with new pack that has so many banish like mirrorjade and longyuan, or grave control like voivode, immune to destroy effect like borrelend or jet dragon, i doubt adventure engine or DPE will last long. but ofc new meta engine come to replace the old one like always. lol
Duel Links had one of the best counter to that. If a card is limited they can only use 2 cards on the limited list in their deck. So you can’t just stack your deck.
Remember when once upon a time every deck played “pick 10 of these staples”? I think engines are just a modern version of that.
I remember years ago when people were arguing about how archetypes apparently ruined deckbuilding, since you just throw all the good archetype cards together or something like that. Funny how we came full circle on that.
Agree. Ygo player used to select 40 - 90 card from thousands card, from ground up to find best synergy. Creativity in ygo started to fade from when top player show their deck online for the world to see. Then konami worsen it with archetype by their built in strategy
I remember the crisis of hand traps and how they break the game a few years back I even advocated for the ban of ash. Now we have like 15 hand traps lmao
@@grimdeth2197 ash can negate any card or effect that can move card from deck causing it got large coverage (draw, add, sp summon, mill). The problem? All that only for small cost, no specific condition or any noticeable drawback whatsoever
@@satyayana1399 and yet as sad as it is we still need them, because without them it’s just you go first you win(most of the time)
@@Lokisif34 'them'?
I actually think engines are healthy for the game but only if they aren’t widely used like DPE, adventurer, etc. they also help fill dead spots with other decks, the best example I can think of off the top of my head are rogue decks. Lets say for example you have a control deck that lacks a way to add further pressure outside of what it can already do, boom add Eldlich. What if you have a deck that needs a way to send their S/T to the GY but they don’t have a consistent way, boom add souls (Eldlich is literally all I can think about rn sorry). I do feel like specific engines are fine if only rogue uses it or some meta decks use it but it makes everything stale when everything starts to use it (like how we all see what’s happening with the recent engines).
Also you didn’t say this in the video (I think) but every deck has their reason to play an engine; prank kids play adventure to protect their starters, Tenyi to make fleur (and other stuff), dlink because uh, idk actually. I just wanted to say that second part RQ because it surprises me the amount of players that don’t put much thought into why x deck plays x engine apart from “engine good every deck plays it”. I haven’t played current format in a few months now so I’m not sure how accurate what I’m saying is right now but definitely let me know. Anyway this was a fantastic video and I really enjoy how long your videos are starting to get, you have some serious potential here
Literally every player that can afford it played adventure engine in that format and almost every deck except some played dpe/dragoon and verte package. It kinda kills the game that every single deck ends with almost same board thanks to engines
There's a problem.
These engines allow decks to break their power ceilings and compete against higher tier decks.
Look at Prank-Kids, it only needed the extra push which the Adventurer engine provide to protect its plays.
Sure, it may "lose its identity" but, what is the alternative? Fade into obsolescence?
8:00 Verte, along with Halqifibrax, Electrumite and Ahashima were made to support the mechanics of their archetypes, not as support for their archetypes.
They should have been generic to avoid confusion.
prank became a problem because butler could be used twice without killing itself
it was already bdif w/o adventure stuff
I think when it comes to engines it definitely depends on whether or not it was 100% intended to be one to be healthy. Look at the incantation engine, it was designed from the ground up to be an engine to help ritual decks be able to be consistent. Now look at Vetre, it was designed to be legacy support for Predaplant but was made generic and became a horrible engine.
I wouldn't really call Verte an engine really, more like a button that dispenses a boss.
Konami has also followed a fairly consistent pattern in regards to OP cards it hits. If the card or payoff in question supports a planned deck (Verte with HERO, Halq with a number of lore Synchro decks, Terrortop with XYZ, Firewall/Summon Sorceresss with Links, Zoodiacs surviving as long as they did) then they typically ban or limit cards around it. If it was a card that was not meant to be as good as it was they hit it quickly or launch rather targeted hate against it (Grass looks Greener banned, Kaijus released to dunk Towers, the horrendous Plant Tuner limits after they were power crept, smacking the Dragon Rulers multiple times). The fact that they banned stuff around Verte for so long, and only hit it after DPE and Branded became meta, tells us they knew it was broken and made it so far ahead of time in hopes no one noticed. Probably why the OCG hit Dragoon so hard so fast. It was legacy support that Verte accidentally made playable. (In the TCG it was annoying as sin but very beatable)
Engines are more like Adventure or Zombie, as it is multiple cards that work in tandem to provide a certain chain. Singular cards that act as a Boss Dispenser are to them as a baseball bat is to a car. One can break the other as long as it can swing hard enough, but the other will always win in consistent results and durability.
Just wanted to hop in but you use verte as an example but "in theory" its a horrible one because "on paper" predaplants always been designed as an archetype meant to use your opponent's monsters as material fodder (not denying how they are played, just saying that their intended playstyle was supposed to that). So (again on paper) it makes sense that Verte was supposed to be super generic with the idea being you steal an opponent's monster to make it then immediately use its effect to turn any one monster into a dark before using it fusion effect to potentially steal another monster. All other monsters that can be defined as super generic engines share the same idea on the concept they were "intended to be healthy" but in execution obviously players would abuse which is kinda a double edged sword.
@@reikurokaze3988
I'd argue most of those super generic and pushed cards, especially when part of an archetype that randomly don't Tribal-lock you, aren't intended to be healthy. They're meant to force the previous meta out of rotation in favor of the newest cards.
Would you really argue Zeus, Drident/Broadbull, Branded Fusion, DPE or True King Calamities were intended to be healthy for the game?
@@clayxros576 The only card you listed that's doesn't follow a trend is zeus who as far to my knowledge "was meant" to be generic strong xyz card aka what it was intended even then zeus has a "harder" restriction in the fact an xzy needs to be battle first which is nowhere as free as these later cards. All other cards you mentioned are all in archetype monsters (branded fusion as well) that had unfortunate side effects of being generic due to the archetype they were made for especially considering the time of their release. They were meant to be just what it says on the tin, "support for their archetypes". It just so happens their archetypes are naturally "generic" which in turn makes those cards "generic".
For instance HERO monsters are lumped together nowadays and not separate so it makes sense DPE would become a card that locks you into HERO monsters and not just D.heroes. Branded being an archetype intended for albaz to bounce into different extra deck monsters using opponents monsters given the situation only for lubellion and mirrorjade to come along with pretty strong effects and lax materials requirements. True king of all calamities was intended for a deck to special summon lv9's to summon it only for VW to come along with them popping out lv9 with the greatest of ease. Drident is a weird case because zoodiacs themselves were busted by that they ignore their inherent restrictions for being xyz monsters, drident was just icing on an already busted cake.
Long story short yes "in the moment of their inclusion", these cards were meant to be healthy because "on paper" were supposed to have the inherent restrictions that were remedied as yugioh slowly switched to a faster format, by extension it why decks receive support in many shapes of forms. So it's not a black and white case of pushing for new meta but inherent problems that come from designing certain archetypes the way they are when the game itself doesn't have set rotations. Arguably ban lists (and by extension erratas) are what forces changes in the new meta if we want to go down that route since again we always have access to 10k cards.
@@reikurokaze3988
Lets define our terms here. Unhealthy, to my definition and many others, refers to either a single card or an engine that overpowers any tangental strategies which would itherwise have potential. Now ill go over some problem cards again with added context.
Verte completely sidesteps the HERO limit, and Fusion Destiny barely has a xenolock at all. "For the rest of this turn" is so laughable it may as well not be there considering DPE is always made as the last part of an end board. Never was that thing going to be healthy, on paper or otherwise. There's a reason people were calling for its or Fusion Destiny's ban before it was even released.
Albaz and Branded has been intended to be meta for awhile now. Albaz himself was released during Borreload/Dragonlink's dominance, a clear anti-meta/anti-dragon card which Konami has a history of making to move the meta along. The fact they ever had to go as far as Branded Fusion and Mirrorjade is an admittance the archetype was underperforming.
True King Calamity was indeed intended to be made by the True King archetype on release. However Virtual World being easily able to churn it out turn after turn, and Konami LETTING THEM for multiple formats, is a pretty clear message they made VW with the knowledge that would happen. It was a single card problem (like Zeus Verte and Branded Fusion) that already existed and they simply made use of it.
Now, how were these unhealthy? DPE-Verte have acted as the main point of decks ever since they came out, or as an easily accessible backup even other decks with other DPE-Verte's can't handle. Staples are fine, even generic ones. But if a BOSS MONSTER and it's dispenser button are in nearly every deck aside from Flowandreez, they are overriding other options by being so far ahead of what other options there are.
Branded Fusion. It's a searchable Foolish Burial, it gives free extention or negation, it makes everyone question if other Fusion decks are even worth consideration. And on top of it sets up your hand-grave for future turns. Shaddoll-Invoked dropped off the map after it came out because it became the new best Fusion deck, and suppressed the Swordsouls on top of it. All because of 1 card that has so much support you'd think it was played by Yugi Moto. And this was known as soon as it was spoiled.
True King Calamity is an off button for the opponent, and is generically accessible. Any deck that can turbo out 2 lvl 9s was making it despite other decent options, and VW completely ignored its own VERY POWERFUL tribal options because True King was just better. It's dominated any Lvl 9 based deck ever since it came out, and was protected until Konami had their profit.
There is a linking line between these cards. While reading them literally they may be archetype dependent, the meta and simple observation of events shows they're functionally generic. And take over the decks they're put into.
If a card is so strong its inclusion in a toolbox immediately becomes the goal of the whole deck, its unhealthy. Plain and simple. DPE-Verte, Branded Fusion, Zeus, True King Calamity are examples of that, and the fact they were protected over multiple banlists rather than hit shows blatant amd willful favoritism, regardless of health of the game.
The thing with these engines is that they lack restrictions/their restrictions are not harsh enough. In the case of the DPE engine, you can use Fusion Destiny at the end of your combo to get around it's restriction, or use Verte at then of it as well.
Adventure Engine prevents you from activating Normal summon monster effects, but many monsters can activate their effect when Normal Summon or Special.
It's not that they should create weak boss monsters to prevent that, but make them perform their best when used in the correct archetype.
Perhaps Fusion Destiny should of had a Red Eyes Fusion type restriction on it, they function similarly being able to grab materials from the deck. Though Red Eyes Fusion is perhaps a bit too harsh, maybe a limit on two or three special summons (with the fusion counting as one) or something.
YGO's problem isn't just the lack of rotation but also the complete lack of any real restriction in deckbuilding beyond the banlist.
But that’s what makes it different from other card games, and kind of the reason why I love it. Not having set rotation is what makes creative deck building so cool, using cards that are as old as dirt because they’re busted with a new archetype is really cool, and I like to see when players come up with cool decks that aren’t necessarily locked into a certain archetype, but just a pile of cards that all work together. Verte is obviously broken and 100% deserves it’s place on the banlist but I think the other engines are fine.
@@Cokevanished agree with both of u
I think the biggest problem with this game isn't necessarily the engines, but something else you touched on briefly. The fact that this game is so unbalanced that you have to go meta to win and trying other strategies is a literal death sentence. See I'm a big fan of using a stall deck, but there are so many OP monsters these days that stampede over my cards. I put three or four cards on the field on my first turn and by the time my opponent's turn concludes I've already lost the game somehow. Even if I put a ton of staple cards seen in most meta decks, a lot of them clash with my other strategies. Even when I get a pay-dirt opening hand, the opponent is blowing up my entire field and hitting me for lethal in one or two turns. Its not even a fun game to play anymore. I'm not a sore loser a loss is a loss, but when you won a ton of games back in the day because multiple strategies were viable at the time and then years later lose consistently game after game to the same three deck types in one or two turns it drains all the fun out of the game.
Agree. Old school YGO felt like actual chess, whereas new YGO feels like writing a program to win digital chess matches. New YGO feels too robotic, like the soul of the game was lost.
I feel the need to say Brilliant Fusion wasn't banned for the engine. Gem-Knight FTK actually got it banned
Yeah, I remember that lol I lost to a gem-knight ftk at the first locals I ever participated in 😭
It got banned when chaos thunder was in it's prime
@@prohobbyist5872 Chaos Thunder barely even used one normal summon, Brilliant fusion engine actively bricked Chaos Thunder
I think the way to fix this would be a "choice restriction banlist" similar to what bushiroad does with cardfight vanguard where these engines are restricted to their archetype when it gets busted in other decks. Such as dark dragoon being in a dark magician or red eyes deck only or Destroyer Phoenix enforcer sticking to hero decks only so that they don't get banned or hurt for being abused in other things which keeps the archetypes from being hurt by bans or rewrites of card effects.
Easy to do in a virtual setting like Master Duel, but painfully impossible in paper formats. What you are looking for is a rotation of formats, like Pokemon and MTG. Say the last 4 years of cards being 'standard' and last 10 being 'extended' and all cards being 'eternal' with a banlist for each one. It lets people play in the groups they want to play, cards retain value for longer periods of time, and its easier for Konami to make changes without "upsetting the player base" since any change only affects a potion of the players.
@@Tsukasa-TheWizard Bushiroad has done a pretty good job establishing a selective restriction like I outlined, it's all in how they handle sign up sheets and deck lists. I am against rotations like mtg and pokemon use because it invalidates the cards you spent money on making it hard to bother staying in the game for some people. I ended up switching to commander in MTG for that reason.
@@spitfire9434 goes both ways though, as not doing rotations invalidates previous investment since you have to keep investing more into newer cards to stay relevant. Older players that don't want to spend a lot and learn new meta are pretty much screwed.
Sure, that selective restriction can work, but that really only favors one group of players, whereas rotations favor more groups and are better with maintaining and regaining player base.
Why not just create more restrictions on cards
Like lock to types attribute levels and even just archtype locking and limiting generic stuff and design around types attributes levels stats and other stuff that limits how many decks the cards can be used
Honestly I kind of wished there was a clause that rewarded people for playing pure variants of decks or at least decks that mostly consist of cards that share the same lore.
ok, so here's my take. what you say it's right but, the verte and adventurer engine are a mistake to begin with. if they wanted to make verte a strong support for predaplant the answer was simple, just specific that when you use the fusion effect you have to summon a predaplant, this would've stopped the engine quite a fair bit if not totally because not every predaplant fusion can be spammed into every dammn deck like DPE since they need specific cards that unlike dpe don't take that much space and you can play those cards everywhere, and if i remember correct some of them even requires other fusions to be summoned and that takes space in the extra deck too. now for the adventurer engine... what can i say 2 free negations all searchable from a 1 combo card that you can get in billions of way seems way too strong for me. ok it can be stopped quite easly so that's that, but you're gonna waste handtraps and negations on that and get baited by that only because the guy can put up those things for besically free. to me it seems like they just want to create strong combos just to see how much far they can take it idk.
What preda supposed to do is distribute preda counter on link summon, enable fusion using mons on field, hand and opp mons with preda counter
"Why engines are a bad thing"
Old formats with their recruiters, floaters, and Thunder Dragon (as both a discard engine and Chaos enabler):
It’s never the player’s fault. The players are water and will find any hole Konami leaves in the boat. It was broken when we found it.
Archetypes will always be cooler cause archetypes have their own style of play and splashing a minor engine gives consistency but still lets the archetypes personality shine through
I believe you 100% but unfortunately, allow me to quote a certain main character from the duel monsters English dub series. “ We duel to gain power and to be the best, not to have fun. “ you see, unfortunately this game has gotten way too expensive in order to just do it for fun. They want to win so they can win more cards and win tournaments and potentially make a profit off of it. So they use the best cards that are currently available to us. And unfortunately it just so happens that those are the engines.
The amount of times you say its our fault for figuring out basic combos is alarming because it implies that konami has given its own employees sub master duel meta resources when researching cards. If true, its still their fucking fault for not giving them the resources to look at fusion spell/monsters own archetype. If brilliant fusion had never existed and was announced today; it would take the community a whole 5 minutes to figure out the go to monster. Its not hard, and there are no excuses, especially when it comes to fusion monsters.
i play casually with my friends for the most part, we build our decks with themes/archetypes/characters in mind. no engines, no overreliance of meta combos and engines... i am yet to NOT have fun playing yugioh!
the game used to be about building decks that have the potential to get you out of any situation; but not because you have the engines to fill your board with negates and floodgates, but rather by outplaying your opponent and planning ahead.
it's not just the engines, it's how konami has consistently sped up the game's pace and changed the mentality behind what the limit of card abilities should be
Exactly the game was great when it came out. Now its just so fast paced and competitive that people who enjoyed the game for what it was now cant really enjoy it like they use to
Well that’s just any casual vs competitive debate for most games. The games fun until everyone is trying their best to win, which means to play more boring things that unfortunately are just objectively better. The main issue is just no rotation. Fast paced can be fun if there is a back and forth. But since cards never get rotated any generic card gets labbed to all hell and it can limit design because there are too many cards to consider when making new things. Like last format I had hella fun because of the variety but now it’s basically just adventure + insert name here. Floodgate and handtraps are annoying but also a necessary evil at times (moreso handtraps than floodgates, some of those really don’t serve much of a purpose but to limit gameplay and are way more abusable)
@@DKaelynd I mean you can go back and play goat/Edison for that but that’s also a solved meta which means you will eventually try everything there is to try
the magic of yugioh has always been the excitement of being able to play blindly against the opponent by following the basic rulesets while being "Surprised" by their effects or card abilities if you didn't know their effects like they did. always felt like a conversation or battle between two people. and don't get me wrong that is still a major part of the game's inherent design... however the problem arises when there's so many cards and so many ways archetypes work and cards synergize, it's hard to keep a game like this consistent without constantly adding new things that directly counter anything broken or flat out banning the broken stuff.
since it's a trading card games, more cards will always be the choice, and reprinting is never an easy thing. it is what it is and we gotta live with it.
and i do have to end this on the note that konami does make good decisions sometimes and a lot of the archetype designs are super fun to play... it just doesn't feel fun when the game is relegated to a 1 player game. like in fighting games, if your character has a flowchart that is unbreakable and keeps advantage, they're playing 1P mode and you're sitting there with two options: block or die. basically the equivalent of going second against a full board with decent backrow and a bunch of negates lmao
To me, the card's artwork is more intriguing than the stats, foil, and effects. Just look at Gryphon rider. That thing is a beast, surely it must be a tough monster to battle or destroy... oh. Its a generic Special Summon and negation card. Point is: I like Yugioh's art designs and archetypes that has a theme to its deck and playstyle. But, nowadays, its all about that competitiveness and money. Konami took all of Takahasi work and turn it into a money generator. Sad. Rest in peace Kazuki Takahashi.
This gonna be my 2 cents but I dont think engines are the true issue. I believe its the state of the game. Yugioh is a more unique card since you really dont need hard resources to play unlike other TCG games like MTG or FoW. Therefore everything is usable as long as its not on a banlist. Another thing is yugioh doesnt have format protection as well, things dont cycle out and next series of cards just have to be stronger than the last because the newer set wont sell unless something can affect its meta game in someway. I believe the game state needs to change in a more dramatic way that doesnt need the banlist help. I would like them to try to adopt more formats or rotation so very lil can get out of hand. Something always has to be better than the last thing in yugioh and its rare to see returning deck types come back. Like tele-dad from start to finish was teir 0 to teir 1.5 after a few formats. This is just how i think it is, im not disagreeing but i believe there other issues than engines.
Bro when people break cards, that's creativity.
1. I don't think engines are inherently bad. Some decks use specific engines because of synergy/weakness offset and that's cool and healthy. Engines get problematic though when they're auto-included in 90% of decks. Like the Zoo engine, like the Brave engine etc.
2. While I do agree that eventually creating broken stuff by accident is unavoidable in any card game, I'd still blame it on the company. If it's in the game, someone will break it, that's just how games work and it's the developer's responsibility to fix it. Konami knew about from deck Fusions being broken with Verte, yet they still didn't preemptively ban it b4 DPE came out.
I dont like the idea that decks have to stick to their archetypes, when yugioh first stared there were no specific archetypes and nobody complained
It's not our fault for using cards the way they were designed. You cannot blame the customer for the mistakes of a company.
Engines are my favorite thing in yugioh, they're only problematic when they have 0 restrictions and/or are too strong to the point it homogenizes deckbuilding
Engines should be emerging properties of decks, something like how 2 level 4 monsters can make a 4 mat zeus by stacking some utopias together. This is a cool engine with obvious costs, restrictions, and use cases. Decks that can put out 4s but struggle board breaking would love this, for example
Engines are what make deck building in yugioh so fun. They're the best thing about the game but can also be its hubris
The problem with blaming the players is the theory of the "optimal strategy". Given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of a game. While it is impossible for Konami to do RND for every possible combo, its inevitable that players will eventually find a way to break cards in ways they were never intended, especially with a card pool as vast as Yu-Gi-Oh. The term "blame" doesn't really apply for the players since it was something that would happen inevitably anyway, it's just a matter of time until someone finds the combo. Great video, well thought out points! 🤙
exactly its the developers responsability to make the best way to win be the fun way, not the players having to choose between the fun way and the optimal way
@@drillygo6984 the point is, they are doing that, if were not blaming the players then it's no ones fault, look again at the adventure engine, before that released , the most important resource that most decks use is the normal summon, so they thought that maybe restricting that will make it so that it can only be used by some decks and definitely not the normal summon reliant meta at the time, but then players realized the power of a free omni negate as long as they build their decks in a way that doesn't use normal summon effects. and so players went that direction completely contrary to what they thought adventure was gonna be, again "players will optimize the fun out of a game", if the optimal way to play isn't fun then its the game devs fault but it's not right to completely blame them because it was never their intention to have it happen this way
@@raeserec535 but you all talking as if you knew for a fact that Konami never intended these cards to be abused. These cards that you claim Konami overlooked are the same short printed high rarity and chased cards of the sets. Almost as if Konami intended them to be good so they would sell product by power creeping previous cards.
@@drillygo6984 That's honestly how they get you to buy the new cards they put out, by making it so that they are better than what we already have, it's something that has been going on for the game's entire history. Power creep is something that is unavoidable, and for the stated reason of players attempting to optimize the game, because obviously people who play want to be able to win, therefore printing better, more powerful cards will push people in that direction. Because of this, I believe that what you previously said about making "the best way to win the fun way" isn't always something that can be accomplished, because players will always cherrypick the best cards they can whenever a new set comes out, rather or not it's "fun" isn't the priority, and as was stated in this video, I don't think that's something they can design a way to prevent. You have to realize that players will always look for ways to use their cards in ways that can make it easier to win, which is ultimately what leads to archetypes that weren't originally intended to be played in the same deck together getting paired with each other to supplement the deck as a whole
@@drillygo6984 Konami of America rarity jacks sought out cards that they know were popular in the OCG. Konami JP typically has boss monsters and character cards as higher rarity. The example I like to use because I know it is Archfiend Eccentric, a highly sought out card at the time for being both MST and Exiled Force wrapped up into 1 Lvl 3 generic scale 7 monster that also gave access to Falling Down, and was sought out for over a year as Ignights and Magispectors came out. When Duelist Alliance came out in the OCG it was only a rare with 2 starter decks including it as a common, but in TCG it has only ever been a super rare except for the single starter deck it was included in and Infinite Gold (where it was a common and rare respectively, but rare was the lowest in PG packs), this was also the set that started having more Super Rares per set, but with the same pull chance, making it harder to pull. Oh also it was believed to be short printed, which the OCG doesn't do.
So please keep in mind that it is KoA that is doing that with the cards it knows are gonna be highly sought out, so the designs aren't being made to be abused.
Since I started playing Master Duel, I've come to respect the "Once per turn" rule of cards. Dealing with players repeating using the same cards effect in the same turn by sending the card to the graveyard or returning it to the hand then summoning it again is extremely annoying and boring. I've also grown bored seeing the same combos with the end result of a negate board that limits me from doing anything unless I have the right cards in my opening hand. I'm an old fashion type of player who enjoys building decks around an archetype.
Also, as for Destroyer Phoenix Enforcers, they could've given it a harder summoning condition. Like having a level 6 fusion monster as one of it's fusion material. That would have prevent it from becoming a engine without weakening it.
While I agree with your thoughts, I don't think we should be made to feel bad for breaking the game. I think it's actually really impressive when people are able to come up with strategies that nobody was ever able to think of
Breaking games can be impressive, but when that means elements of a game are banned because of unintended interactions, it hurts the playing experience of other players because once something is banned, even those who just want to have fun using something as intended no longer has the chance. Sometimes just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
@@seandobbins2231 yeah but Yugi oh is a competitive game. So breaking the game down and it’s cards gives you the advantage so you can win more. If you have a chance to utilize another engine to further enhance your plays your going to do it because you want every advantage to win the match, money, tournament ect. Every game and every aspect of our lives is trying to find ways to get ahead of the competition. Even if it means breaking a certain interaction or using something it wasn’t intended for.
@@zethroth0077 except Yu-Gi-Oh isn't always competitive, as many just want to have fun playing the game, but can't just play what's fun for them because if you don't play certain combos, you'll lose and losing all the time isn't fun.
I get some do play professionally, but professional players with any game are generally a minority. Also, when a card is banned that's meant as support for an archetype or for some general purpose because it's used as part of a broken combo it means those archetypes, etc, as well as the players who want to play them lose out because they can't use them at all, which hurts the game.
The true irony is that most of the people running these combos like engines who are trying to be competitive are just doing it because they found out from someone else, aren't innovative, and generally won't even get a chance at national or world because they're just playing what's necessary just to keep up with current meta, not to actually succeed.
As with any game, doing things that break it seem fun at the moment because you get to do crazy stuff, but it ultimately hurts the game because if unchecked, being effective while playing reduces your options since you have to do specific things just to keep up rather than play what's fun for you, and when the methods of breaking a game are checked, it typically results in bans, also limiting options, even for those trying to play the game as intended.
I get the drive people have to want to compete and be the best, but it should just be because they know how to play better, not to break things that hurt or ruin the fun of others. There's a lot of people that would love to get [back] into the game, but don't or is short-lived because of people trying to break the game. In some communities these breakers are considered toxic players, but for some reason a part of the Yu-Gi-Oh community doesn't see that.
I'm not going to tell anyone not to play how is fun for them, but I will say what the effect of certain play styles are.
I have mixed feelings, a lot of engines are meta defining with each release and are hard to deal with when they blend in already top tier decks that can lead into a very toxic gameplay that's not fun for the opponent.
But also engines are what make rogue or old fun casuals decks playable in this day an age. But there is a line where if you draw a card and it's from your deck archetype and not the engine and you feel like that's a loose condition the thing went too far.
I disagree. I run Adventure engine, and DPE engine in exactly 0% of my Casual/Rogue decks. Engines only work in overpowered archetypes like Twins, that can make their entire board off 1 starter. A deck like Lair of Darkness, or Mayakashis is absolutely crippled by opening with a Destiny hero dasher, or Drackoback the rideable dragon in your hand. Also casual decks do not have the link/discard fodder which enable these archetypes to run.
Konami is putting too many restrictions on mediocre cards, while making strong cards too generic.
I feel like one solution for the engine issue is to make them less generic, we need more cards that support specific types and attributes. I love engines like Tri-brigade since they're good, but you don't need them in a tri deck if it's good enough on its own, and you can only use them in tri-types. If we had engines more along the lines of Tri-brigade where it was a small boost to a specific type, then engines wouldn't be so bad. We just need cards to be less generic. I feel the same way with bosses like Savage, Apo, and Barrone as well, they're too generic.
full agree on savage (as a pure rokket player) at least give it the stipulation of you NEEDING a rokket tuner in order to get him out. Borrelend i think has the same 'generic' summoning conditions (3+ effect monsters) but you'll never see it outside of anyone playing rokkets cause it's quick effect negation NEEDS rokkets in the grave to revive.
Tri brigade killed my simorgh deck… now it’s a box collecting dust…
@@Yomi2012 I think that link should have had restrictions on what you could summon, like only simmorgh monsters, it was begging to be abused at some point, sadly
I feel the same way, they just should have made strong engines exclusive to their archetypes. One of the decks that does this perfectly in my opinion is Evil Eye, you can search and search cards but only inside the archetype. Now in master duel everyone using the brave token engine, and if you manage to stop it, they start the burning abyss or the hero engine. Every deck looks alike and ends up in the same boss monsters with multi denies
yeah engine broke sometime when not work together but yes if you play deck that help build around you it will help decl nut look first how fusion is and i dont know about blue eye but it rare card which you can use fusion phoneix then blue eye cuz in turn you use xyz to stop spell when other to play... but my guest is more what i ask is use ash blossimg depend if you want in or not... have any question feel free to ask .
Man, I've always loved speedroids ever since they came out. They reminded me a lot of synchrons. Terrortop was the main enabler for speedroids when they came out, but due to how easy it was to go into a rank 3, people started using it a lot in BA. so they ended up limiting it to 1, which really hurt the consistency of pure speedroids. That led to me having to throw in the windwitch engine, as well as invoked to help with consistency. I still use that deck to this day. It really sucks because, yes, ik that speedroids now have more support and more searchers, but let's be honest, none of them really live up to terrortop.
Gotta disagree on the DPE take, it released into a meta where anaconda/dragoon already existed, anaconda is so broken that it should/does restrict all fusion monsters development.
Anaconda will either need to be permabanned across all versions of the game so fusion monsters can be powerful in their own archetypes and easier to get out or get its effect changed to let players only summon predaplants(even then he would still function as an engine)
I think discussions around engines are usually flawed in the sense that they ignore the reality that certain archetypes are designed a certain way.
Take a look at Destiny Heroes. They've been used as an engine since its inception. D-Draw, Mali, Dark Grepher, etc all these effects do stuff that synergizes with each other. Therefore it's no surprise that DPE as an engine happened. They gave the engine archetype a boss monster so of course it would be used, regardless if cards like Verte Anaconda or Destiny Fusion existed. Hell, some mad deckbuilder could figure out a way to use Synchro Fusionist to fetch Fusion Destiny, which I suppose is the point in the second half of the video.
If Konami wanted to release more balanced retrains of engine cards, they could. But I think that's not what they want. They want people to play the game, and the best way they can accomplish this is to print stuff that people get excited for. Adventure, DPE, generic ED monsters, handtraps, all of these are enjoyed by the playerbase at large.
5:24 ~ Smokegranade + Gearfried, classic bonkers DM era combo, been around since Goat Format or Yata even, Konami shoulda known better 🤦
The real problem is that Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't really have set rotation. Old cards are sometimes pretty nutty paired with new stuff.
Don't get me wrong that's one of the coolest parts about Yu-Gi-Oh. Being able to literally use 90% of the cards that ever came out. But there needs to be some form of set rotation.
there is no such thing as deckbuilding anymore, you play whatever is the best engine for the deck your playing, HT's and interupts, then the must have staples, by the time you add all that there's barely anyroom for the deck you actually want to play, one of the main reasons why Pile Decks are so common where they just run "good Stuff" and nothing else.
The issue is Konami not hitting the cards that deserves the hit. Instead of limiting Terrortop and Silent boots, why not hit and limit Dante?
Instead of banning or limit level 1 tuners hit Halq who's causing the issue? I understand they need to make a profit, but it just doesn't seem right to penalize another archtype due to the tomfoolery one card is causing. That's just my opinion on the matter.
In my opinion I think the game would be more fun if players would just make solid archetype decks, and of course throw in a coulpe extra deck monsters of what ever they want that works really well with what they're playing with. Me and my friend, when we make decks we build around one archetype. Like he has a pure lyrilusc deck and I have a pure resonator/red dragon archfiend deck and a pure DD/DDD and we have a blast with those. We both agreed to stay away from cards like ash blossom and others that suck the fun out of the game.
The "problem" would still exist, because:
1) All archetypes have good and bad cards, so everyone would play only the best cards of an archetype.
2) There are archetypes better than others. An archetype from 5-8 years ago is less likely to beat a modern one.
@@MrJuan_Vzla well not really, for example blue eyes has been around for a while and it just gets more support which makes it better. Some don't get any support because no one wants to play them. Cloudians have very little support. But if more players would play it, Konami might make more support in the future. Really all I'm saying is I wish players would play archetypes the way they're meant to be played with their own extra deck monsters, and with one or two extra of the players choice. Perfect example, red eyes dark dragoon, in my opinion i think he should only be used In a dark magician or red eyes deck.
I disagree with the point that konami didn't design adventure to be an engine, there's literally 1 card that makes the token which is the point of the archetype, and it was clearly designed to be a 1 card gryphon rider deck. They didn't put any restrictions on them as well, which was definitely a conscious decision. Invoked was also designed to be an engine and is similar to the adventure engine in many ways
I feel the same about most engines but, a few of them like tenyi, sword soul are fine because, they have a more natural synergy rather than oh I'm using this one card that belongs to a certain arc type that you can use in any deck that doesn't necessarily boost your deck directly it is just used to beat your opponent when they use up most of their resources.
Engines can be a good thing, if they aren't overused. Like Dark Beckoning Beast making Curios from one normal summon. They can be used in a Sacred Beast Deck, but if you used in anywhere else that's what I'd call creative.
What are good non-engine cards? Lightning Storm, Solemn Judgement, etc. Do you want everyone to run strong individual cards with little synergy?
I think sometimes is konami's fault and sometimes might be the player base as you said.
Because there is no way the designers of the game couldn't see when cards are too generic and Im not talking about engines only this includes boss monsters.
Sometimes is indeed our fault because we find strategies to break some cards however you cannot deny that some of the cards designed were too generic from the very beginning.
So imagine trying to compete at Locals with Cyber Dragons without Engines. You actually Can't compete without the Branded Engine to get into both Fusions like Chimeratech and Mirror Jade
Engines do stagger the game. I also strongly agree that they rip away a archetypes identity. Especially when trying to play competitive with older decks. Like branded seems to be the new engine now. I play blue eyes and with the profiles i see you apparently have to play only 5 blue eyes cards and the rest branded just to make a "blue eyes" deck viable.
Very good discussion about Engines! However, I'd blame the game rather than the playerbase. Hate the game, not the player!
Sangan only triggered off being detached off an xyz for like 2 weeks before they changed the rules on how triggers work from under xyzs because it was recognised it was too good
The problem is always that too many cards are very strong *and* completely generic.
Most engines wouldn't even be called engines if they would restrict you a lot more. Some do restrict you to an element, type or extra deck card type and those are sometimes fine, but even that can be too generic if the card or engine is too strong.
The way to fix 90% of cards and overall problems with the game is either slapping a hard once per turn on cards or heavily restricting your special summons for that turn.
My honest opinion is that archetypes should be more locked into their own types. Playing a fiend archetype? Well now you're locked into fiends! Your archetype has multiple types? Well then you're locked into your own archetype! Many cards are just too generic for their massive benefits. Imagine if halqi locked you into synchro summons for the rest of the turn or verte required 2 predaplants to make.
I completely agree with you. I've never liked most of the cards that are used for engines (dragoon, dpe, Adventure etc.) because it takes away the unique personality of the players deck and once you see these cards out, you'll always roll your eyes out and say "Ah s**t, here we go again". Not to mention you basically loose to the same cards. That's the main reason i really dislike generic easy to summon beast of a boss monsters like Savage Dragon and Acsess Codetalker. You're basically the dead horse who's getting beaten and it gets draining and boring.
Yeah, cards that just ends with the same result are the most anticlimactic to deal with. It's why I've said for the longest that all these pool of generic cards could be the detriment of the game because the banlist can only hit so much too little where other decks that could mainly play it become unplayable.
I think a good solution are self restricted engines, like windwitches, only wind decks can use the windwitch engine reliably and they even suffer from not being able to summon xyz and links. But this makes that not every deck could use engines, if adventure locked you out of the extra deck i think it would be a lot less played, konami normally locks cards in a lot of archetype (like floo) to avoid this, but i think that if they stopped locking into archetypes only and start lonking into types and atributes the game state would be better. A lot of engines have no restrictions so you can play all of them at the same time, theres pratically no deck variety in this game.
I don't want the game to get too archetypey.
Imagine every spell and trap locking themselves to one specific random monster name.
It's the pain I feel everyday.
I think engines can be fun: they make it so that you don’t have to have pure decks and can splash some more interesting moves in decks. BUT as someone mentioned I think engines should not be as generic as they are now, they should only complement specific decks. But I’m no expert whatsoever so yeah my opinion does not count that much
I'm just glad my deck whilst not very decent has had hold itself even with these new metas and engine cards.
I Feel very bad for other players that had their fav cards harmed by these new strategies.
I don't like calling something the players fault... as if it is somehow morally wrong to find every way to make one's own deck stronger.
Yeah, it seems that he is blaming the players for trying to win in a competitive game.
Wow… this video is actually very interesting, it reminded me of an old conversation I had with a friend, saying that Konami came, and thought every single one of the plays and strategies you can do with a card, or many, but I always thought that there was no way that they would think about everything, like the noble knights example you gave.
This video resonates a lot with me because what made me drop the game was the format where every deck imaginable became a Knightmare deck.
Another thing about engines is that it forces everyone to play like 10 handtraps in one deck as well as their own engine to counter the op’s engine.
This makes deck building incredibly restrictive and really boring to play. YGO now just a game of who wins the coin toss and builds an unbreakable negate board first while using the one card engines as a means to exhaust the opponent’s handtrap resources so they got nothing for the next turn (Im looking at you adventure tenyi)
I agree with this 100% a few generic or popular spicy cards in a deck with an identity can be really cool but a mash of meta stuff should not work as well together. I've also been in the position of getting the cards of the deck im playing limited or banned because some other random deck was abusing it. DPE ain't even that bad if you get rid of vert. Literally stopped playing because I got tired of going against adventure everything.
To be honest i dont agree with dpe being entirely our fault i mean yeah the card is a good designed destiny hero card but its way too generic the artwork shows that is a fusion betwen plasma and og enforcer they could just make the card require plasma for its fusion material to avoid being splashed into other decks but they just make it almost any destiny hero and i think that is konami fault at least a little bit, if the card shows enforcer and plasma why not make plasma one of their materials i mean is a perfectly good card played in heroes as intended also the newer fusion shining neos actualy requires the fusion materials it uses so i think its konami fault at least a bit
This restriction wouldnt matter as people would just splash Plasma into their Decks and Use it the Same way… BTW is Plasma a stronger Card than DPE in my opinion 😅
@@auranecropolis2848 i know but letting the room for even more generic bullshit is what broke dpe and yeah they could still just use plasma and deal with it but at least it would be an argument at their favour also plasma is just a skill drain with an absorb with zero protection whatsoever who requires you to go - 3 to summon it im not sure if that is better to the super splasheable quick effect disruption and draw 2 + special summon that is extremely hard to get rid of
All i care about is if Mine and Red Reboot gets banned
Your points do broadly apply, and you give some OK examples (Smoke Grenade - I can give my own example as well: I doubt Konami saw it coming that Gryphon being 7 would facilitate Rose dragons into Baronne Halq), but the examples of DPE and Adventurer are SO bad.
Konami R&D aren't totally stupid and very well saw coming that 7 additional copies of calledby was gonna be, if not broken, very strong.
Konami R&D also aren't stupid and very well knew, when designing a *_Destiny_* HERO *_Fusion_* monster, that Verte could send the card called *_"Fusion Destiny"_* . They just released it anyway because they had other priorities in mind.
We can speculate: they probably wanted DHERO support because it fit the theme of Burst of *Destiny*, they probably wanted to boost HEROes' go-first potential & resilience to boardwipes such as Raigeki and Nibiru (DPE keeps itself as a resource through both) - we can guess this from the fact that they also released D - Force around the time, a card that counters boardwipes also.
Also something that goes unmentioned is Konami R&D most certainly creates cards with the awareness that they could be used in ways that they do not foresee; the reason why they nonetheless design cards like they do (with sometimes what turn out to be overly minimal restrictions) is because they just consider that creativity to be part of the game. Freedom in deckbuilding is very important for this game and they do not want to squash it by archetype-locking every single good card*.
*They could do that, if they wanted to. But they don't. It's a choice they make willingly.
They are taking risks in balancing to let the players generally have more options in gameplay.
I think I have a scenario that I would love to hear the comments feedback on. I have currently built a Gaia the fierce Knight deck which is from what I heard a going second deck so I can't guarantee it I'll go second every time even when playing with my friends they want to win too so they'll make me go first sometimes. So I added a branded engine with mirror Jade so it helps me in going first in case I lose the dice roll. So with that scenario am I technically hurting my Yu-Gi-Oh gameplay by adding an engine into my deck or is that justifiable.
many strong card/engine can be fixed if they errated them to be exclusive to the deck(s) that they were meant for from the beginning (adding a clause to make anaconda unusable if the player summon a non-fusion monster from the extra deck, making only allowing the player to special summon brave token or monster that refer it after using aramesir)
I would personally be a little more ok if DPE effect "did" target, allowing certain archetypes to have a little more protection.
I don't think the card by itself is that OP, but how easy is to get with verte and how easy is to use as an engine, you can slap DPE in almost every deck, we have a problem with it as an engine, not as a destiny hero support.
it would be silly to say I have a perfect answer, I only know as a player, it sucks to build your deck around the DPE meta
no offense but I think using the example “the gem knight player in the anime used the gem knight card” is not a very powerful point. Konami makes the cards, if they don’t want cards to be splashed everywhere, they can make them lock, like branded fusion. If verte locked you into predaplants, hell, even just PLANTS, he would be much less offensive
You seriously are blaming players for engines? And you think a lot of the modern ones aren't Konami intentionally including it? No, it's super obvious how intentional Adventurer was, DPE is super obvious when Anaconda exists.
Konami needs engines to exist because it creates extremely high demand cards that -everyone- needs. If engines didn't exist, the only overlap (and therefore high demand) cards in the game would be hand traps, and they can't just print those every set and expect relevance. It's easier to print an engine, ban it, and print another engine.
You're not giving Konami a lot of credit. The balance of the game as it is now is intentional. We're not 2003 Konami who barely understood their own game.
the dpe engine has the same issue as dragoon
verte.
if not for verte, the dpe engine would have to relly on a hard to search spell.
how else would you get fd, best way probably is to run 3 lonfire blossoms, predplant scarrab and cobra. Which can relies on the normal summon.
Would using Anti-Meta cards count as YGO Engines? One that prevents Special Summoning at the point that your opponent will outright surrender?
simple fix make every official tournament archetype deck manditory it wont fully fix it but it will slow it down. No crossover between archetypes unless specicfically desigend by cards in the archetype, and allow generic cards in any archetype.
dragon link players after hearing this 💀
All though engines hurt the game. I feel that some of them help greatly with certain decks like scraps and pk in orcust
It makes more sense to give that deck its own support engine. If the engine is generic enough for rogue decks to use, theyre generic ebough for meta decks to use, therefore when a rogue deck wins it's usually because of luck or the opponent using a copied deck list that they dont fully understand.
My biggest problem with engines just in my (incredibly casual) experience is the difference in power for decks. I bought a charmer structure deck, and my older brother added dark magician cards as an engine. Except now, although I win against him more often now, if feels like I play a dark magician deck that I added a few charmers to
100% agree with this I've been thinking this since PK Rusty. I feel like one solution to this could be to make extra deck monster be archetype locked more. If True king needed a true king card to summon it never would have been banned.
I think the overall problem is the abundance of strong generic options in general. There are engines that support specific deck types like impcantations for rituals or punk for synchros, which are fine. But on top of the engines mentioned in this video, there are a ton of link monsters you can throw into just about any deck with space in the extra for them (accesscode, appo, borrelsword, knightmares). Between engines, staple cards like the pots and handtraps, and these extra deck monsters, it can feel like decks have so little of the actual archetype they are playing that it's just another engine
Are you out of your mind!? The first engine you mention is Tour Guide and Sangan. Do you want to attract wild Farfa's?!
Man I love the Pendulumgraph engine
IMO just about every extra deck monster should be part of an archetype, and should strictly require at least 1 in-archetype non-token material to summon.
Ex. Halqi should require specifically a Crystron tuner, Verte should require a Predaplant, Auroradon should require a Mecha Phantom Beast, Final Sigma should require a Mathmech tuner, Accesscode Talker should require all code talker materials, etc. (all specifying non-token of course)
Also, for DPE, it shouldn't have been able to revive _itself_ . Simply adjust the graveyard ability to read "...except 'Destiny HERO Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer'." and it would be far less of a problem card while still retaining its strengths.
The extra deck shouldn't be a super toolbox where you can just jam every generic broken card into and have access to them all at all times. Imagine if you had full access to your sideboard at all times and could just use cards from it whenever as though they were in your hand, even in game 1. That's essentially what generic powerful extra deck monsters do. Look at Goyo Guardian, it was so strong it had to be banned, then they made it _not_ generic and it became balanced and fine instantly.
Dpe is a phoenix, its supposed to revive itself
@@yerinanon "[card] is thematically [flavor concept], therefor it _should_ break the game, warp entire formats, and warp all deckbuilding so every single deck in existence forces in a completely unrelated engine solely to play that card"
Yea... *no.*
Goyo Guardian isn't "balanced", it's fcking trash.
The "our fault" argument makes no sense. If Konami can't foresee these situations to some extent, then they are really bad at making their own game. Of course, there will always be one or another weird combo that you can't imagine, but that would still be their blunder.
I really can't agree with your take that it's the players fault for the engines, what are we supposed to do then? Purposely ignore the OP interactions that may be released?
On the other hand, I don't think Konami cares as much about the balance of the game as they care about selling product, of course they love people buying grand creators to get their new 300 USD engine and they will love people getting boxes of the Ishizu sets just so they can play them in their Tearlaments
I mean they can just use wordplay inside of the description like they do some of the time like you can only use the card if you have a set amount of that archetype in your deck or whatever have you that can easily stop a lot of that engine stuff. Duel links and master duel does this I believe so the tcg and ocg and start using that method of only being able to play cards if you have a set amount of other cards from said archetype or it will be a dead card in your deck or many dead cards
I miss the old days of yugioh when the game came out. Strategies and unique decks were a thing. Now its meta and speed decks. Have to win turn 0 to turn 3. Have to make the game unfun for your opponent...
I ran a tier 1.5 Dark Paladin deck when Spirits and Water decks were top tier. Those were the good old days where a game takes longer then turn 3 for each player. When the game could go either way... now it's over quicker then Saturday morning cereal...
Though Yugioh did one thing right. The reprint aspect.
Imo one of the worst restricted decks in my life was gimmick puppets. I hated it so much, that there was a restrictionsummoning on most of those cards that limit you to only using gimmicks and only using dark maschine xyz. That was until i saw the current gamestate with those overused generic bossmoster. At that point those hash restrictions made sense to me and i think most boss monsters should always have that too, even if there is a possibility to not get played at all.
DPE is in my book totally konamis fault as with verte. For DPE they could have made restrictions, when he gets summoned back, same with every very strong effect card. As for verte: why did they made the materials so generic? Make it 2 predaplant monsters and this card will only be seen there.
lol you just contradicted yourself in the dpe/dragoon argument. why can't dark magician and red-eyes have dragoon, but destiny heroes can have dpe? why
the adventurer engine argument also just sucks. how are we supposed to play this as it's own thing when the non-engine cards just suck (magicore warrior, the field spells, the traps and the equips that aren't dracoback suck so much ass, it's unbelievable). And after seeing the mess they did, the next wave of support just locks you into cards related to the adventurer token (thesea is just a better magicore warrior, but it locks you, the new continuous spell locks you as well)
also, why shouldn't we exploit the cards? it's a game where the objective is to win, so shouldn't we use the best options? if you really want the cards to be balanced before release, why not let partnered creators test them before and not let just one person decide? you can clearly do that and it works.
if engines weren't a thing, a lot of cards would just fall into obscurity and never be played, and that's what happens with a lot of archetypes.
We have a lot of cards now..
Archetype-lock engine is now possible..
Generic spells and traps can still be added..
But for others they can be fixed by making it an archetype only to prevent them from being used as an engine for other archetypes..
I think that maybe the more broken of the effects should have been hard baked into its archtype. For example, if we took red eyes dark dragoon and it's negate effect could only be used if dark magician was present. It might change how we use and abuse engines in the future as it might behave differently in another deck.
Adventure is a Negate, Defence and Bounce to hand in one card.
Also Konami just morph those engines with their deck, like making you unable to special summon monsters not from series. It would be engine or deck situation