Thanks for watching friends. Apologies for the hackles-raising UA-cam-y title. Let me know your thoughts. I've never made a video before so I'm eager for feedback. Particularly when it comes to audio and video editing (help me...). Comment here, or if you're fancy e-mail me at snarlinger@pm.me. Surely UA-cam will format that e-mail address correctly. Also, and not to suggest that I have this power, but don't harass anyone I talk about in this video... That would be lame. Credits in the description btw
You've gone and created something above and beyond. I went and thought this was a seasoned UA-cam channel. Keep up the impeccable sound quality and editing!
Earthbound: Halloween Hack actually does have a meta-narrative as anyone who reads the design docs would tell you. All throughout the hack it tells you that you have a choice, it tells you to spare Doctor Andonauts, yet the only choice you can make as you play is a set path to killing him. As Toby said in the design docs, this is intentional, you do have a choice in this game and it's the choice to turn the game off, to walk away and not fight the final boss. It's the only real choice in the game, the only thing that brought it down was the fact no one realised that. That is why Susie spells it out in chapter one of deltarune I believe, "your choices don't matter here"
1.the strange thing about the way undetale handle the relationship between the meta and non meta narrative is that it almost always through 1 or 2 characters.mainly through flowey 2.it seems like flowey and gaster switch roles in deltarune while still keeping character.flowey is only talked a out and never seen but unlike gaster flowey likes the spotlight and so it more obvious.gaster is now playing a more important role(maybe as the villan)but is still in shadows.
Another game actually (in my personal opinion) better demonstrates the idea you were talking about better than I think DDLC does. OneShot. You are EXPLICITLY a character in the game, being stated to be the "god of this world" on multiple occasions. You take the role of being the guide of the young "messiah" and not-cat Niko deliver the "sun" to a tower at the center of the world, and in doing so, return home. *You are told this, explicitly, almost at the very beginning of the game, by TWO separate characters.* As such, they will frequently talk to you, ask questions, and look to you for support. As if that weren't enough, the game has increasing numbers of glitches that the people of this world are fully aware of, and treat almost like a continual, worsening natural disaster. It has you digging through files or dragging the game window off of your screen to reveal solutions to puzzles. At one point, it is literally confirmed to be a simulation running on your computer. And yet, in spite of all that, it still maintains suspension of disbelief. You still want to help Niko go home. You still want to save this world and everyone in it, even if it is all "fake." The "world machine," the AI that the world is running on, literally even argues this point in favor of why it should be left to die.
Firstly THANK YOU for adding captions!! I have audio processing disorder and often struggle when youtubers don't add captions, so this was such a nice gesture to see it already there without me having to ask! And it made it so much easier to watch the video and follow along cognitively for me :') I think there were some moments where the music got very loud for me during "intense/creepy" portions of your video especially, where i had to adjust my volume quite a bit, but i'm unsure if that's something others were having any issues with or would want changed, so just do what you feel is best! I don't mind turning down my volume sometimes if it's just me lol (and that's another great use for captioned videos!) Secondly, perhaps this shouldn't be a big deal to me, so sorry if it's weird to mention like this, but i've been feeling pretty exhausted about all the transphobia i've seen online, politically, and in pockets of this fandom lately when it used to at least feel less pronounced from my perspective (though ofc it's always existed, and waves of ignorance come and go depending on a lot of factors). Anyway, being trans and queer in a world that can still be quite hostile at times makes it that much more meaningful to find solidarity and inclusion.It was honestly comforting to hear you so plainly say that there is an issue of transphobic harassment that can happen in the fandom sometimes. Whenever deltarune theorists make it clear to their audiences that harassment and/or bigotry shouldn't be normalized, by saying that outright especially when things get particularly bad, it makes me feel a lot safer in this community and I feel more understood too. Thank you for that. Finally, as a chronically ill and disabled deltarune fan, i'm sorry you've been struggling with health issues lately and I wish you all the best! Please prioritize your wellbeing and rest when needed! If you have more art and work to share here, i'll look forward to viewing it whenever it arrives :) Take care and hope you can have gentler moments ahead of you!
Fantastic video. Not only did you dismantle my arguments in an incredibly thorough, efficient, and convincing manner, but you also did so with complete decency and respect. And just to put icing on the cake, you then turned around and made one of the best DELTARUNE theory videos of all time, while somehow making a better Jaru-style video than anything I've ever done. You absolute mad lad. xD P.S. Take care of yourself! Don't want one of the best in the community having nightmares and paranoia on my watch! x)
😭😭😭 Thanks so much man. That's very kind. I tried my best to honour your argument because I deeply respect your work. But don't kid yourself, there's no Jaru-style video like a Jaru video! I'll try to quell the nightmares, but no promises... the beast in my wardrobe is a hungry one.........
Many complain of the "brainrot" and chaos that have erupted from the deltarune community, and while i think its overblown, synthesis like this is wonderful.
@@PhantomGato-v- maybe it's because i can't play most games im interested in and have to research lore through essays and iceberg videos 😭(i've only played EoSD)
Another game that disproves jarus idea that the 4th wall being shattered makes the story irrelevant is Oneshot. The game flat out tells you that it is a game. Even explaining why you downloaded it. Yet the story still matters.
@@sethd.8381 wait seriously? I wasn't expecting to need to do a walkthrough? lol Assuming yer not joking. Here's what you do. As well as I can remember. Go into the games file and look for a file with the authors symbol as an icon. It's a black clover. Open that file then turn on oneshot itself. That should get you on the right track. Good luck
@@sethd.8381 There are timers in a certain room that have something to do with a different ending iirc. I haven’t thought of one shot in a long while tho
So, I dislike most of Jaru's theorys, but if his theories are purposefully being outlandush, I guess that's mostly because I never "grew up" with, like, hugely absurd theorys like Sans is Ness or something. If a theory isn't meant to be taken that seriously, I usually only enjoy it if that unseriousness is very obvious to me, and I don't really get that vibe from Jaru's theories. I feel like they're meant to be taken seriously, but ironically, especially for the Asriel is a pile of dust theory, I wouldn't be able to suspend my disbelief enough to believe that. So when it came to criticism videos about specifically him, while I get that it could've been nicer, and it's never pleasent to hear something that you like being "made fun of" so to say, it was kinda nice to hear that others don't agree with everything as well. On a different note, I found your response and theory very interesting and enjoyable, you also have a very nice way of narrating.
I think Jaru's video also fails to understand how Undertale uses metafiction. Sure, save for Chara talking to the player at the end of the geno route, every instance of 4th wall breaking is justified in-universe, but you only really get that once you have the full picture. If you're a first time player and you kill Toriel, feel bad about it, and reload to spare her, and then witness Flowey calling you out about it, you don't go "oh, I guess this is a universe where the save function canonically exists and this flower can access it" you go "OH SHIT THIS FLOWER CAN BREAK THE 4TH WALL" and that realization doesn't make you disengage with the game until the true lab or the end of geno makes you realize that the save system is canonical. Instead, you get engaged deeper as Undertale rips away a method you were using to disengage, it calls you out for trying to use your position higher than the 4th wall to disengage. Also, just wanna generally say this is great analysis. Even if it turns out to not be true about Deltarune, I love the way you present Gaster here, the idea of this figure who preys on our desire to care about stories and reveals the malevolent side of becoming invested in something, obsession with fiction and fandom creating a monster. If Delatrune doesn't have that concept in the end, I might have to make a story that does myself, cuz that's SUPER compelling.
Thank you so much! Totally agree re: how it actually feels to play Undertale in the moment; the overlapping meaning only coheres by the end of the game, so where does our engagement sit in the meantime?
Considering one of the themes seems to be escapism, a bit of meta commentary on how ppl use fiction to escape and can sometimes care about these characters more than real people is a valid one. Especially with Susie and Kris outright having more dark world friends than real world ones, yet using fiction as a method of connecting.
@@Magma-Idiot-2001 incorrect, Flowey refers to the player by the name entered at the start of the game, which we know is Chara's name. Given Flowey is never shown otherwise to know the player exists and through Asriel is shown to know Chara has some control over Frisk it's far more likely he's talking to Chara rather than the player
I think a big thing jaru and other people forget is Toby worked on and made fan work of Homesuck while being super close to Hussie. Ion think he cares about playing with storytelling conventions like suspension of disbelief or twisting narrative/meta narrative in a way you usually can’t get away with
Agreed. Once you realize that Toby Fox was probably influenced by a comic where both the author and reader are in-universe characters who influence the plot and also die, the idea of the player being a character in Deltarune is a lot easier to believe
@@soulking2007 Can’t wait for the part where Gaster kills the Annoying Dog with a machine gun and then a younger version of him beats up the dialogue box with a crowbar
8:35 an infinitely more obvious example of this once you think of it is OneShot. OneShot has a deep internal narrative with characters that have their own hopes, dreams, desires, and stories. But, the player is not just referenced, they are directly a CHARACTER in the story, tasked with assisting Niko in completing the quest as it will open a way for them to return home. You aren't just playing as the character in a world that doesn't matter and has no consequences- you are guiding a child through a dark forest and they RELY on you to make it. You don't at any point think while playing the game "None of this really matters, it's just a game" for the same reason you become invested in the story of any OTHER media; because it has an internal narrative with characters to become invested in. But despite that, your influence is recognized and greatly important.
You know I've never even realized while playing the game how it's used as a tool to invest you- so much goes into videogame design to play with your head and you don't even notice it! Oneshot messed with me bad and made me feel so personally responsible for Niko- the only moment where I got pulled out of the game, (at the ending where I wanted to experience it all over again, reusing how I reset Undertale by deleting files) dragged me RIGHT back into the narrative with the true ending
@@rindademon3339 Yep. Sometimes breaking the barrier between narrative and meta-narrative makes people MORE invested, it just takes balance between development of both parts. Really you need probably a 70/30 split for narrative to meta-narrative, if not even more narrative (I'd argue Undertale is closer to 95/5. The story stands entirely on its own without needing to acknowledge the player at all). Because if the player is reminded equally if not more often that the world they're seeing doesn't REALLY exist, they become less immersed in its characters and consequences, and you get something like IMSCARED, which is a meta-narrative story, told to us with narrative tools (the game itself). As long as the player is given enough time to immerse themselves in the world before being reminded that it isn't THEIR world, it keeps them in a loop of getting hooked, being reeled in, and then getting released again.
@@GameJam230 ya exactly. When niko breaks down crying near the end of the base game. You don't think. "Oh this is just code playing a role. I don't care" You think "This is a scared lost child. And their fate is in the palm of my hands. With the deciding point, quickly approaching. I'll do my best to keep niko safe"
Nah I completely disagree, I can't fully get into OneShot's lore because of how involved the player is in the narrative, because that just makes me remember I'm playing a game way too much. Especially when they try to imply that the world of OneShot is somehow like a world that got turned into a game that ended up on our internet? Way too meta for its own good
I always thought that the way the Lightners see the dark worlds was some kind of parallel to how We the players see deltarune. Just another story to get lost in. A method of escapism. I absolutely loved this video by the way. *_-the ceo of 💀_*
(excluding Ralsei's dark world, as we don't know much about it, other than it being another home, for darkners and lightners) the 1st dark world: Board Games the 2nd dark world: The Internet the 3rd dark world: TV Shows (& Movies) I wonder if every dark world will have the motif of stuff you can use to distract yourself
Like Jaru said in his video, the Stanley Parable is unremarkable if you follow everything the narrator says, the fun comes from messing with him, yet he claims the suspension of disbelief is broken. He’s mistaking the lame ass story the narrator made up as the true story. The real story is how you interact with the narrator, and you believe he’s a real person. So that’s another game Jaru cites that breaks the fourth wall and keeps its suspension of disbelief
@@niftylittlenameIt feels like you're on a DnD game, going out of your way to mess with him Or playing a game your friend likes but being purposely bad at it to see his reaction.
@@indie_gamer7 it feels really stupid to say that tsp breaks suspension of disbelief. The suspension of disbelief is not in stanley's struggle or the office, its if you believe that the narrator is a genuine person with reactions that controls this game. When he gets scared of the actual devs making achievements on the game that he did not know, his panicked reaction reinforces the suspension of disbelief that he is an entity with consciousness in this game. Deltarune would be the same, the suspension of disbelief would not be broken, it would be rested on making the bridge, the survey program, between us, believable. Its not about destroying the 4th wall. Its about making a tunnel in this barrier, and coat it in narrative
Something I find interesting is that Jaru assumes that the player would break suspension of disbelief, when in thousands of comics and many many people's headcannons it is already an unchangable fact? And their disbelief hasn't been broken. He argues that that's because it hasn't become a major part of the story, but everyone already believes it WILL, so their disbelief should already be broken? Because its already in everyone's mind.
Yeah, that's a fair point. If everyone's already running on that assumption and they're still invested, then what's the issue hey? I suppose though that there's a difference between fanworks exploring the concept and the game exploring it. For one, if the game does it, it feels much more "real", more tangible than a headcanon. That counts for something. And while a fanwork could explore the idea really well, the game might screw it up, put too much focus on the epic fourth wall break and not enough on the narrative that drew us in. I think that's a real risk, but not a guaranteed one (or even one I expect to happen...).
I mean, that doesn't really prove anything. People can believe anything they want to, they can believe that the Earth isn't round or that smurfs are real but that doesn't really change anything. It's not about believing things it's about beliving your beliefs are more valid than others. Theoretically you can still believe Smurfs are real if you can come up with really really good explanations for the fact that the Smurfs are fiction created for comic strips. Either way, ou can still engage with something even if your disbelief is broken or if it has bad writing. I still enjoy the edgy Adventure Time fanfics about Finn being in a coma and the entire show being part of his imagination i read when i was 10. Heck, Garten of Banban has been my favorite guilty pleasure in the last year or so even if i know it sucks balls, i just love those silly clay monsters. Can you explain why it doesn't break suspension of disbelief? Or why it breaking suspension of disbelief isn't bad?
@@Quinhala11 the main point is. If the player being connected directly to kris breaks suspension of disbelief Why isnt it already broken? It literally doesnt matter what Toby has planned for Deltarune, because everyone already believes the player is the villain, the Doomsday scenario Jaru suggests for the future happened in 2018, and got a thousand times stronger in 2021, yet, everything is fine, the suspension of disbelief is not broken, so its not as he says.
@@Quinhala11 Don't you get it? Sure people can believe what they want to, but Jaru asserts that the player throws the narrative in the trash. Jaru believes that it makes the world of deltarune meaningless. But my point is simply this: People still find the world of deltarune meaningful, despite their belief in the player. Not that they're "still able" to enjoy the bullet mechanics, or still able to find some moments cool. Even with APPARENT foreknowledge that the player is a participant, the people playing... don't lose interest? I don't see how the scenario we're currently in would change by the reveal, considering everyones already caught on? My argument for it not breaking disbelief is evidence based, much like Jarus attempted argument against it. If so many people aren't losing interest in the game, despite the knowledge of the player... Why would suspension of disbelief be shattered, by a reveal everyone already sees coming?
@@niftylittlename And my point is that people can believe in anything they want and can also be engaged in things that break suspension of disbelief or are bad or wrong. It is broken, if people believe the Player is evil and it's all a videogame made up by Gaster in Piles of Asriel dust's computer to watch us play it, then that means it being fake is an active part of the story, so the suspension of disbelief is broken. You can still enjoy it as what you imagine it to be. Jaru's point (and mine atp) isn't about people beliving what they believe, it's about the game as we see and the intentions of the creator as expressed in it, if other people want to ignore Toby and DELTARUNE and spread misinformation and their own ill-informed interpretations of the game so be it. Like you said, it's not like this never happened before, misconceptions about characters and stories will always happen, just last month or so i saw a video with a lot of views about how Gaster wrote the entries in True Lab instead of Alphys even if that's not true and bad to Alphys' character. "It literally doesn't matter what Toby has planned" as you said.
"Q: How many endings are there? A: One. Q: Then doesn't that mean nothing I do matters? A: There's something more important than reaching the end." If this game really does end up breaking the "connection" between the player and the game, that doesn't mean the story meant nothing. Personally, I like the 'Player is The Angel' theory, 'cause it makes you an actual character in the story... but it's still basically the same thing :p
I think the angel is supposed to be the character in the game that follows what the higher power/player says. Noelle was called the angel, and followed the orders of Kris/Player. I do think the player is a character tho! Cuz Spamton implies there’s a bigger world out there, and that can be anyone.
@@BelBelle468 Also a good interpretation! Noelle definitely has strong Angel parallels, but I dunno if I'm convinced she's literally The Angel at this point in the story
@@goomylife5403 yeah we don’t really have any definition of what an angel even is besides ppl thinking she’s got “angel” qualities (a couple of darkners and spamton saying so doesn’t mean it’s true). It’s kinda like how I’m unconvinced Flowey lacks a soul due to his actions and the fact we don’t know what a soul is (made more apparent by Kris and the player somehow sharing one in Deltarune). The only thing we really know about the angel is that it can be anyone, like how the player/chara is the angel in geno and Asriel is the angel in pacifist cuz of the prophecy. Which of course lends more credence to the idea the player could be an angel like in geno, and doesn’t need to be the mouthpiece of the player like in pacifist.
Would be better if the player angel theory was just an endgame moment rather than the center of the plot. Like Flowey, Gaster after the lightners tearfully let go of darkners according to the don't forget theme will call out on your addiction towards videogames rather than the player being the final boss. We are the angel because the lightners serve us and we change the lives of the lightners therefore we aren't undesirable at all.
As I commented on Jaru's video, I think the biggest thing to keep in mind when looking at Deltarune's story is that it isn't strictly a narrative- a relationship between characters in-universe, OR a meta-narrative- relationship between the game and us. Rather what Toby crafted with Undertale and is likely continuing to Deltarune is a sort of "narrative-meta-narrative"- the relationship between the narrative and the meta-narrative. They are created intentionally to be so intrinsically connected to each-other that one can choose to look at the story from either perspective and they would be at least "partially" correct.
i don’t think getting immersed in deltarune is bad, but i also think we sort of need, like… something else. like, this game is near and dear to all of our hearts, and nothing is going to change that, but there’s only so much we can get out of it while singlemindedly obsessing over it, yearning for the next chapters, going mad over knowledge that exists, tangibly, in one man’s head, but we just can’t access yet. we need to fill our lives with other things, other hobbies and media, not neglect our lives and ourselves. for me, i’ve been studying for my driver’s license recently, and have been thinking about finally trying to go to college. my life’s moving with or without me and i need to get with it, and stop living in (sometimes literal) darkness. it’s already been making the wait for the next chapters more bearable, especially considering they’ll probably come out while i’m (hopefully) in my first terms of college. but at the same time… people always focus on the dark subsuming the light in the prophecy, which, fair enough, considering the whole roaring thing, but… what happens if the *light* subsumes the *dark*? there’s a BALANCE between them. the objective was never to eliminate dark, to eliminate, well, fantasy and imagination, it’s just to create a balance. maybe the light subsuming the dark wouldn’t be as cataclysmic as the roaring, but i think it’d just be… well, sad. a quiet death. a loss of innocence, even. what i guess i’m trying to say is… we can’t forget that light in our souls. the promise in our hearts. the thing that captivates us all so much about toby fox’s work in the first place-we all carry it with us, always. it enhances our lives, and in turn, our lives make the experience richer. if we stop believing in it, believing in fantasy itself, all is lost. don’t forget.
so, here is something i don't think is well talked about enough in this video. a message from a painful game made by painful devs. that when a story tells you it's a story, there is no reason to be mad. you knew this from the begining. why would a book telling you that it's story is not real upset you? you already knew that. why would a game make you mad when it says "I'm a game" when you already knew, before you even bought it, that it was all just a game? man, pathalogic is so cool.
@@snarlinger You should play the sequel. It can only be described as a video game adaptation, of the first game; it's a lot more accessible. Also it's not really a sequel, it's a remake.
This is the logic I couldn’t understand ppl hating when danganronpa did it. I think a lot of danganronpa has subpar writing but its finale is one of the better written things. And I can’t understand why ppl dislike it, cuz a lot of their reasoning amounts to “but they said it’s fake and a game!”. Which is what they surely had to know after picking it up. Why does the game acknowledging it’s a game make it any or or less what it already is?
*Simple:* Because a large point of escapism, and storytelling in general, is that you _immerse_ yourself in a fictional world. Unless it's something like satire (where the point is whimsical comedy), you typically want to maintain your suspension of disbelief so that you can you feel emotional responses more profoundly and care about the characters/world in a deeper way. Stories will often encourage you to do this by giving you a protagonist (POV character) to see the world through, much like Deltarune does with Kris and all their backstory. Why? To give the story more stakes and emotional weight. Sure, *you* know its not real, but the characters usually don't. Their fear and conflicting emotions are still real to them. Therefore, you empathize with them more easily. Which means you're (likely) affected by it more. However, if the characters and world are making it clear that they know it's just fiction and they aren't real, then it makes all their emotional responses feel disingenuous. They're not real, so there isn't any stakes. And the characters know that. They feel more like actors than real people, and the best stories don't usually feel like this.
I think Jaru's meta narrative Undertale take is a little weird, since there are enough 4th wall breaks to make it clear that we, the person in the real world, are actually a character in the game of some sort. But in relation to Deltarune I find the worry of suspension of disbelief almost nonsensical, since such a huge part of the story actively wants to tell, and is, about us, the real world person, being part of this game world.
What 4th wall breaks in UT make that clear? I've had conversations about this topic too many times (shamefully), but i think you're probably thinking of either: 1. Flowey's speech at the end of pacifist, even if Flowey directly refers to Chara at in his last lines. Or: 2. Chara's speech at the end of genocide, even if Chara ask for "your" soul and after they take it and you do pacifist they possess Frisk's body, so they're talking to Frisk. Obviously Chara and Frisk stand in for us in both of those instances and that's Jaru's point. Metaphorically UT and DR are commenting on viddeogames and how people play them, but it's also a story played straight with characters inside a world. No part of Deltarune's story requires "the real world person" to be part of it. The conflict between Kris and "the soul" could be about Kris and The Angel, or Kris and Chara, or Kris and piles of Asriel's dust, it's not required to be about Kris and "a real world person sitting in a computer clicking on buttons.
@@Quinhala11 When Flowey monologues in the genocide route he says something about "those pathetic people that want to see it. But they are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that's watching right now, aren't they." He's only speculating there, but what character in Undertale could it refer to at that point? Most characters are dead by then. Is he referring to Alphys because she just watches things happen through her cameras? It seems weird for him to say that she wanted to see the genocide route happen but was just too weak to do it herself though.
@schulterdewelt3989 Yes, and that genocide dialogue actually only triggers when the game detects video capture software, ie it is to spook the audience of streamers specifically. If it always happened, you could argue it was something else, but yeah, Flower does kind of call out the audience, even if he isn't completely sure of it himself.
@@Ammiteur9 Not really, it's no different from Flowey metaphorically being a player who consumed all the content in a game to the point of exhaustion and desensitization while also being an undead goat boy who projects his desire to play with his childhood best friend again onto Frisk.
Something I find interesting about this is that Undertale has a similar but less potent point to make here. If you compare how Flowey treated the reset power and why a Player might use it, Undertale argues that it's *when you the player* refuse to suspend your disbelief that you get something like the Genocide route. The player has decided NOT to treat the game or the characters in it like they matter, thus they get a stripped down, boring, downer of an experience that only truly is challenging at the very end. In such a way it primarily just keeps you from your satisfying conclusion for longer. Undertale says that engaging with a story DESPITE knowing it is just a game is a *good thing*,
I think the barrier in undertale has another metaphorical theme through the lense of fandom. Like it's a barrier only a human can cross through to the other side of it, and the characters (monsters) within the story (underground) can't leave it's context. This represents how we suspend our disbelief when we engage with a game or a story or a fandom. And we're told throughout the game that it's easy to get out if we just get to the end, but then alphys explains that to break the barrier we would need to KILL a monster to get THEIR soul, kind of implying it's not that easy to get out of a game/story once you've made a connection with the characters. You don't wanna kill any of the monsters you've met along the way they're so fun and nice and well written! Surely mercy has to be an option here too?? It's all very representative of how easy it is to get engaged with a story and not want to leave it behind. I really love that about it
the fact you've never made a video before is genuinely impressive. you mentioned at one point how i "probably have [you] on in the background"--but while i usually do that, i actually couldn't here, because you were exceptionally captivating this is a REALLY good video. i'm also a Jaru fan myself, and while i don't agree with a lot of his points (especially this suspension of disbelief/metanarrative one), i hate how toxic people have been about criticizing his theories. to have this video, which is respectful but yet firm in its points, which praises him while still understanding your perceived flaws in his theories, is fantastic please continue to make more videos!!! i have subscribed and would love to see more
I love this theory so much. I'd like to add one thing to your point: Goner kid. I'm sure you already know what happens when you give it an umbrella. They say it's not raining, that this does make them feel better, then... One of Sans's OSTs is "It's raining somewhere else." The same character that has a photo of three people with the label "don't forget" on it. The same character lost in depression over the meaninglessness of it all. The same person that can't bring himself to care anymore. Goner kid's last line is "Please forget about me." It was raining somewhere else, but you still gave them an umbrella. You care about them, you are connected, but... you need to forget. You need to forget about them to move on. Because they are not real, they are not here. It is not raining here, but somewhere else. In the dark. Then they finally disappear. The world functions perfectly without them, but... they're okay with it. Letting them go shows how much you care about them. I honestly think this gives your theory a lot of credit. A lot less relevant, but you should look up toby's blogpost from october 2015 about Shyren. It's seemingly unremarkable, but there's just *something* about it that makes me feel like there's something deeper to it.
In terms of games that break the 4th wall, I personally love Bravely Second. For some spoilers: halfway through the game, you literally have to start a "New Game Plus" to continue the story. And the fact that you're intervening in the story is built up by the fact that our world is referred to like a celestial plane, and you find out that one of your main characters is only alive because of the spirit of someone else from our plane of existence! It's a main plot point, and his relationship with another person from our realm is a major thematic point. I know it's a soft 4th wall break, but I always found it as one of the best ways to involve the player in the game world.
The previous game, Bravely Default, has much the same kind of meta involvement in its narrative. After all, [MAJOR SPOILERS] the main character is only "alive" in that game because You, the player, are keeping him alive through controlling him. This coincidentally happens to match up pretty well with one of the most common interpretations of what's up with Kris, too.
INCREDIBLY good shit, god damn. plenty of the stuff you touched on in the later half of this video comes rather close to some conclusions that i made as well about deltarune's meta-narrative, particularly with that focus on suspension of disbelief. i feel a lot of the sentiments you showed as well in this video about people's reaction to jaru's content, and to that particular video of his about the player; i've always tried to adopt the mentality of "it's not always about what Will be, but what Could be" when it comes to theorizing, and it does really kinda suck that people just get so hostile sometimes over people's interpretations of the game, or dumb it down to "oh it's just fanfiction disguised as a theory". like, yeah, the two do have overlap, but just because there's a story that's told with a theory doesn't always have to mean it can only be headcanon and nothing more, that's still what someone *actually* believes, and what's the harm in that, right? especially because at the end of the day, it Is just funny video game, and honestly i think the point you made about how people get so connected to DR really could play into why the current fandom may have that "tension" as you described it. and again, as i said already, i think you really touch on the idea of DR having its narrative and meta-narrative at odds with each other super well, and it lines up a lot with what i've theorized and what i'm currently in the middle of working on as well. i know i've been slow as hell with my own output but, videos like these especially only make me more confident that whatever DR could be trying to say/do, that suspension of disbelief in any case, is pretty much the main focal point of how i think the game's meta-narrative especially is structured. not to mention, your editing/voiceover and pacing overall for this video is really good as well; hope to see more from ya if you feel an itch to keep doing DR stuff!
Aw, thanks Molly!! Hugely appreciate your feedback. And of course, I love your videos :) Totally normal to have a slow output IMO. If anything, making this video made me realise how meticulous and finicky video production actually is...
I have a theory. a dumb theory. more of a fanfiction. with literally naught but a misinterpreted line of dialogue to support it. and ages of evidence to fight it. yet in a way, that evidence.... is a part of it? I once was watching one of Shay's speedruns of the Snowgrave route. He was fighting Spamton Neo when I paused the video. and on the screen one of his lines of dialogue persisted: "UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU ARE ALL ALONE" and A Thought came to mind. I went back through the video there to see the whole line. "GO AHEAD AND [Scream] INTO THE [Receiver]. THE [Voice] RUNS OUT EVENTUALLY. YOUR [Voice] THEIR [Voice]. UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU ARE ALL ALONE" And The Thought spoke to me. What if Kris IS alone? What if Kris simply doesn't want to admit that their actions are their own? That the entirety of their depressing life is their responsibility And to absolve themselves of that responsibility, they instead choose to believe that SOMETHING is controlling them. Kris could yell and scream at us for as long as they want, but those screams would go nowhere and in the end The voice, THEIR voice, will run out. and they will realize they were all alone. That they've always been alone. In a game that does everything it can to convince you that you aren't Kris... What if we don't exist?
... i like this theory. I really, really like it. I haven't heard something like this before, and now i am genuinely interested in this idea. i wonder if i could find anything in-game that could maybe support it? i am replaying the game right now, so I'll look out for stuff i guess?
also, forget about deltarune. the idea you suggested here could work very well as the main plot of an entire different story in itself. i feel like something like this has quite a lot of potential
Hmmm, its an interesting twist to consider and could only happens in a game like this where our presence in the story is taken for granted. I dont think thats where toby is going since a lot of the setup so far would contradict it, but its definitely worth considering.
I never really watched Jaru because I don't vibe with his theories most of the time... But it's nice of you to make a rebuttal video while being respectful and kind.
Jaru forgot that the fourth wall has been broken multiple times in Undertale. Deltarune's plot is angling towards the player being very much part of the world, not just an actor from outside of it. And breaking the ""suspension of disbelief"" isn't a death knell to player investment.
When is the 4th wall broken in UT? I've had conversations about this topic too many times (shamefully), but i think you're probably thinking of either: 1. Flowey's speech at the end of pacifist, even if Flowey directly refers to Chara at in his last lines. Or: 2. Chara's speech at the end of genocide, even if Chara ask for "your" soul and after they take it and you do pacifist they possess Frisk's body, so they're talking to Frisk. Obviously Chara and Frisk stand in for us in both of those instances and that's Jaru's point. Metaphorically UT and DR are commenting on viddeogames and how people play them, but it's also a story played straight with characters inside a world. No part of Deltarune's story requires "the real world person" to be part of it. The conflict between Kris and "the soul" could be about Kris and The Angel, or Kris and Chara, or Kris and piles of Asriel's dust, it's not required to be about Kris and "a real world person sitting in a computer clicking on buttons. ..Just copied and pasted from another comment.
@@Quinhala11Chara's speech after genocide is really confusing part, at least for me. Because in my opinion, they couldn't talk to Frisk. I guess Frisk is dead after Chara's hit. I've heard the theory that Chara destroyed the world itself, but it still means Frisk isn't here. So it's really difficult thing to explain.
He didn’t forget but like he explained in the video when UT breaks the forth wall there is an in game explanation that coexist with the metanarrative explanation. When Flowey talks to us he thinks he is talking to Chara (or how we name the first human in our playthrough, not a literal player at the other side of the screen). So we insert ourselves to the game through the reincarnation of a character that was already dead. From this perspective comes his Asriel dust theory. Other parts when UT break the fourth wall are equally explainable by in universe things. So both interpretations coexist at the same time. I honestly agree in how he sees undertale but I feel that DR is going to be different. More like OneShot. And my main argument for this is, why Toby is so excited to show us the ending of this game if it is going to be the exact same thing as Undertale? That doesn’t make any sense at all! If he feels that way is because he is going to tackle the theme of the connection of the player and the game in a complete new and different way. Toby once said that he wanted to make a game SO meta that nobody would doubt is meta. I believe that deltarune is that game.
@@Quinhala11 When revealing all the bombs in the room, Mettaton says "Even my words are...!", and then his words fall _out of the text box_ and explode.
@@MattTOB618 And the Spooky music that continues playing after you leave Napstablooks house, how it changes the battle music to a spooktune, and then Washuwa and Aaron get creeped out and leave on their own. I love it when the line between what is and isn't diagetic gets blurred.
We might only have one complete video game, but we do remember that he was a huge fan of Homestuck to the point of living in Hussie's basement So while he didn't write it, we know that Toby is hardly opposed to stories where the Narrative and Meta-Narrative are so inextricable that discussing one without the other is impossible
Don’t know what it is with youtube recently, but they’ve been recommending smaller channels more often recently, and i love it. Genuinely surprised that this is your first video bc your narration and editing is so good!! (also jaru supremacy🗣️🔥🔥🔥)
Wow. Genuinely, one of my new favourite videos reflecting on deltarune, and deltarune theorycrafting. In fact, this video has very much Rattled My Brain, so I'd like to spill out my thoughts on this comment, if that's alright. Firstly, the most unimportant stuff. I'm actually really impressed with the technical quality of this video. Even if the audio mixing is not quite perfect, it, along with all other facets of the editing do NOT suggest that this is some channel's with 14 subscribers first video, and although im sure i missed some, those little parts where there are eyes hiding in the dark are masterfully done, in a way that actually oddly reminds me of fight club, done just enough and just subtly enough that you'll notice it, but doubt yourself until the eventual reveal. However, that's honestly not too important considering the actual content of the video. Firstly, I'd say it's a good rebuttal to Jaru's video, especially on how it actually goes much, much deeper than it to actually try to predict/interpret deltarune's theme's relationship with the meta-narrative/narrative, as well as the barrier between them, like, the line: "Deltarune is about suspending your disbelief to connect with things you have lost." will definitely stay lodged in my brain until I manage to finish deltarune with that perspective in mind, which, is sort of a shame, because I honestly dont believe that you 100% did it justice, honestly. Like, how, in a way, the weird route shows the negative aspect of that, reliving your trauma. Noelle's trauma of losing a loved one, of the weird kid next-door to be just a little too pushy with their "jokes". The perfect opposite to how Noelle's learns to stand up for herself and is able to (almost) have a relationship with her crush on the regular route. Even if it ends up to not be what toby was thinking, I'd wager it'll be damn close. Or maybe I'm just being irrational cuz of how much I love that interpretation, who knows. But of course, that all pales in comparison to what I think is the most interesting discussion going on in this video. It's true that deltarune's theorycrafting community can feel... A bit desperate for new content, to say the least but I personally still love it, and specially videos like these ones, because, despite the community's strange disgust for fanfiction, these videos manage to express certain readings on the theme's and character's very much like fanfiction can provide. And that's a good thing! If you couldn't tell by this whole ass comment, I really love listening to what people have to say about things I love and chewing up their ideas and perspectives, integrating them into my own. I love deltarune for itself, just as I do it's theories, but I specially love it's theories for the connection that it grants me Deltarune, giving me new perspectives from which to enjoy it, just as I love Deltarune for the connection it gives me to other people and their perspectives. And where is the character of a person more apparent than in the work they produce? Jaru clearly loves undertale, he analyzes deltarune in relation and from the point of view of undertale, because it's a game that he loves and surely changed him in some way. I love ShadowOfRoserade's videos analyzing Deltarune through a Queer lens because: 1: fucking relatable. And 2: It tells me, albeit indirectly, about their lived experiences, their ideas and concepts of how they think of Deltarune's themes, queerness itself, and what they expect or wish Deltarune to depict. Just as much as this video gave me a piece of your perspective, on Deltarune, Jaru's video, and the community itself. Honestly, I dunno where Im going with this. I just watched a movie that made me cry just before this video and I feel like you put so many thoughts in my head while I was in an emotional state I couldn't not express them, as disorganized as they may be. Tl;dr: Isn't it so fucking cool that media can make us connect with each other and be a pathway for conversations and understandings beyond those of the original conversation? Tl;dr: Tl;dr: Good video, made me think.
Thank you so much for your thoughts, you've rattled my brain with this as well. Big 💡💡💡 on the weird route exploring a traumatic connection!! That's brilliant.
Geez I can barely believe this is your first video. Top notch scripting and presentation. My two cents on the actual topic: Breaking the 4th wall, making meta-narrative an essential part of the story, does damage that story's integrity... But, only damage it, and when executed well, that damage can be like the damage inflicted on our muscles by working out. ie, it can make them stronger in the long run. In most stories, the awareness that they are just stories is something we need to ignore, avoid thinking about, so that we can maintain investment. But when the 'barrier' is breached, the narrative bleeds out into the real world, and if the narrative survives that, then we can no longer ESCAPE it by thinking "Oh, none of this is real". Monika talks to us. Flowey calls us out for our actions. Suddenly, the choices we make aren't just choices in a video game, but choices WE are making, that say something about US. Undertale's meta-narrative can be ignored, but if you do engage with it, it makes sure to rub your face in what your engagement on that level means. We become the one real contact point that cannot be denied, and only then can the game ask "what's worth more to you- Seeing this ending, or seeing these people as people?" There's a reason genocide tries to use your empathy to make your quit. There's a reason DDLC's good ending can only be seen by someone who has proven they care about these characters enough to earn it. And besides. Earthbound started it. The final boss is unbeatable. The only thing that can touch it? Faith. A prayer to a higher power. And that power is, in no uncertain terms, the player, and their refusal to accept a bad ending.
I very much love this video, honestly it still hurts my soul you didnt mention oneshot though, and a microscopic amount of me would love to make a video of me bringing it up and still being humble
I've always interpreted the ending of Don't Forget as kind of soothing. The idea that no matter how dark it is, and no matter how bleak things become, I will always be there. Hell, this interpretation is what lead me to use it as a lullaby for my little cousin, lmao.
8:31 Exactly! There were a lot of people in the comments of Jaru's video, myself included, listing games that maintain cohesion and emotional resonance even with a broken barrier. Because that's all we needed to do! One instance breaks the argument. For myself, it's OneShot. OneShot's entire emotional *core* - to give some medium sized spoilers here - is introducing the player to characters who are fake, telling us they're fake, and then making us love them anyway because they're so well written and lovely and they need our help. This not only works, it brings up a lot of deep philosophical questions that enhance the game. Is a level of intelligence or free will what's needed for it to be "worth it" to go out of your way to save someone? What if you have to give something up in exchange? Is merely your happiness worth someone else's whole *life*, if that life isn't real enough? Is it a moral good to care for a tamagotchi, or is it totally meaningless? Or somewhere in between? And how does the answer change if that tamagotchi has shown signs of newly emerging sapience? That's the good shit. And the barrier needed to be broken for any of it to work.
Relevant point I'm adding part way through watching this- If you read Toby's The Making Of document for the Earthbound Halloween Hack he actually mentions the control of the player over an unwitting protagonist is an element he tried to explore (though not particularly successfully because he was like, 16). Not only are over meta dynamics something characteristic of Toby they're something he's been interested in putting in his works for a long time.
Is the implication of that last section that suspension of disbelief is actually the real villain of Deltarune because by getting us to care, obsess and fight over its fictional characters and narrative it can take away from our real lifes? And that by making this video even you are contributing to this happening? Maybe I'm thinking abot this too hard but that whole section has me shook
This is exactly what I think is happening, Watching AmbientRainFall part 1 video theory And this video made me realize that (If it happens to be true I mean)
I love the way this video sets up later points, it lets you figure out what you're gonna say long before you actually say it, stringing you along in this really engaging way. They're strong points, too- by the time you got to Don't Forget I mumbled out loud, to myself, in my room: "oh this guy is cooking now" LOL
I feel that Oneshot too fits that breaking the 4th wall but still keeping an investment in the story It doesn’t have that normal gameplay beforehand but has you instead form a bond with the character via them interacting with you through the game in other ways I’m not good at explaining things so I hope people know what I mean
i am so glad to have found this video. games, and stories in general, that use meta-narrative to comments on our way to consume the media they are in are always such a treat, so hearing that, the very thing that hook me even more to the story, is what apparently make it meaningless, always felt... off. since it's miles away of my own personnal experience. ddlc wouldn't have been that special game to me if it was just a dating sim, it's meta-narrative added a layer that made the game, and it's story, all the more compelling to me, as both worked together to explore a specific theme.
I think comparing the game to Doki is actually 100% wrong. The game is more like Oneshot. In Oneshot, you are a god and you are called out to. Niko talks to you directly, and you feel that. It's a simulation game where they look at the camera and say "Please don't hurt us" and you feel something because you kind of do feel like they are actually talking to you. The games are clearly trying to make you feel like the characters inside the game are real to an extent, just like we always do. When a character dies in a show or movie you loved, it hurts people. I think this is a type of story which tries to pull you into the shallow end of the pool, keeping you still a bit distant to everything but still wading within its waters. To me that isn't entirely breaking the barrier, but rather telling a story where I am *inside the barrier now.* And the characters know that. And I know that. And they know when I pick an option... it's because I picked it. And that is meaningful. Also I love Jaru's stuff. I saw a video being 30:00 and went "this is missin a 0, is this really Jaru's stuff" like yeah I was joking but also not joking like it did surprise me to see 30:00 not 3:00:00. He has wild ideas, but they're fun.
I'm back here to say that I'm watching this video for the third time and this is probably my favorite deltarune video so far. I specially love the part where you talk about the barrier in undertale, and about the faith and sacrifice, and also the final section where you talk about crazy shit that makes us happy. Lately, deltarune theories and content in general have been my favorite entertainment. I spend hours listening to them while I'm drawing (which has become my favorite hobbie), and I feel so seen by this video, it's so beautiful and it seems to represent everything that I feel. I love this game and I'm so happy to find people that love it too.
One of my favorite things about these types of videos is that good crack theory can make you think about things in entirely new ways. Even if you totally disagree with the ideas presented, creating a decent counterargument requires you to look at the work in the context of that theory and it will make you see things you didn't see before.
this video is incredible, dunno what headspace im in with all the work ive been up to and stress ive been under but this video made me emotional. the community feels weird and this feels so welcoming. thank you, please make more, youve got a big fan now
I think the reason so many care enough about this shit to get defensive enough to be shitty, is that deltarune, like undertale before it, clawed open my heart and let me bleed, and unlike every other person in my life, it told me that bleeding was okay. in undertale, i bled the agony of parting, of leaving frisk behind, knowing that was what was best for them and the people they'd grown to love. in undertale, i bled the anguish of the one i could not save, even if i tried, beyond even sense, to do so. in deltarune, i feel the blood starting to leak, for noelle, for kris, for the rift between dreemurrs, for the unseen purple dinosaurs that shaped someone i know, for a puppet that's technically a cat. when i hear castletown's main theme, i feel that old scar coming open, just like when i heard the aching nostalgia of RUINS for the first time. when i hear don't forget, i am undone, just that little bit more. and when ralsei has his little asides, directly to the player, be it fanservice or gameplay advice, it feels like a concert, just for me.
I was genuinely shocked to see this was only your first youtube video! It completely blew me away and had me sucked in, even as I was crocheting in the background. This video made me think and feel things about Deltarune and Undertale that I have not felt from a youtube video in a very long time, congrats on a great video!
In the world of undertale (and presumably deltarune), red eyes are one of the possible eye colors. We know this because of Frisk in genocide. Frisk’s character design leaves them with closed eyes. We can’t see their eye color, Charas eyes are brown, when Chara possesses Frisk, Frisk’s eyes are open so it reveals red eyes. Also you could take Frisks closed eyes as their barrier. Frisk doesn’t see the horrible truth unless we do genocide so they stay blissfully unaware, we open up her eyes to the horror in genocide. This could also be why Kris’s eyes are covered and only uncovered when he can make their own truth. Snarlinger, next video idea: eye theory
@@snarlinger Reminder that Susie let’s her eyes visible after she protects Kris from King Spade and calls them her friend, then goes back to covering her eyes when she intimidates Monster Kid and Snowdrake in the bunker. When Lancer joins the team his handsome faces shows his eyes. And after we force Noelle to kill Berdly her eyes are shadowed. Something is indeed going on with eyes.
amazing video and editing!!! this was a super fun watch!! also, not sure if youve done this yet, but on the topic of games that inform toby's perspective, playing moon rpg remix was eye opening. toby mentioned on twitter upon the games translation announcement that it was a game that inspired him. so many themes (undertale AND deltarune) i feel can be found here. everyone knows the mother series was an inspiration, but i really feel like playing moon rpg is helpful in gaining this kind of perspective as well. highly recommend if you havent!!
I'm not done with the video yet but One Shot breaks the barrier and uses that to cause more emotional turmoil regarding the world and your attachment to it
@@snarlinger any chance you would be interested in sharing your thoughts on the Device Theory now that the final part has been released? part 3 of Device Theory was the catalyst that made me start binging undertale/deltarune videos like a hapless addict, and would be really interested in hearing a perspective on it from someone who has a lot of preexisting ideas about the games.
Great video, man. One small critique, I don't think Undertale's narrative and meta-narrative are as seperate as you (and Jaru, for that matter) made it seem. Flowey calls out the player multiple times, whether it be his genocide monologue or his words when booting up the game post-pacifist and this intrinsically links the narrative and meta-narrative. While the barrier is there, it's something which some characters know is there and, in the case of Flowey, can see right through. The barrier between narrative and meta-narrative is itself a part of the narrative. Once more, wonderful watch, can't wait for more :)
Hugely appreciate your feedback :) Those scenes definitely do complicate the idea of the barrier. Personally I'm of the belief that the post-pacifist monologue can be read in a couple ways. Either Flowey wants the player to leave Frisk alone, or Flowey wants the soul of the fallen human to leave Frisk alone. The genocide monologue is much trickier though... what else could Flowey even be referring to when he talks about "other people watching"? You could do mental gymnastics at that point, but it's more intuitive to say that Flowey is in some way aware of what's beyond the fourth wall.
As someone who got this video recommended to me, and honestly not even watching the video but knowing what it’s about, I’d like to throw my two cents into the ring with a story called Umineko. Without getting too in depth, Umineko near constantly brings to your attention the fact that it is a story. It barely falls short of saying it to your face, but it dances around that fact so much it’s almost the same thing. And yet many people who read Umineko fell in love with it, because they were able to both accept the fictionality of Umineko while at the same time accepting it on its own terms. A story telling you that it’s fictional doesn’t mean it’s impossible to enjoy it as a story. If anything, it simply provides a new lens with which to analyze the story.
This is genuinely such a well-crafted video. And the fact that this is your first video on this channel... kudos to you man! Hope to see many more videos from you!
I don't normally comment on videos, but I would like to send some appreciation for bringing up the fact that the game isn't finished yet. One of my only pet peeves is when media is analyzed/judged when it isn't complete, but then acting like it is. It's like checking in on a painter's work, then intermediately commenting on how it looks when it's less than halfway done. (Visual) Art can often look entirely different in process compared to the finished product. Anywho 10/10 no notes.
For a 1st video, tbe editing here is absolutely AMAZING!! Great ideas with a good message behind it all too...hopefully this gets decent size so people can kinda understand what you mean. No matter the way Deltarune goes, we need to hold out hope it'll pay off...and we all know it will.
@@snarlinger No constructive feedback here! Your punctuation was quite solid, there wasn't a ton of confusing typos, and adding in descriptions for sound effects is a wonderful touch that a lot of independent creators unfortunately end up not including. Genuinely phenomenal stuff accessibility wise, particularly if this is your first foray into content creation - seriously appreciate it :) (also just gotta say exceptional video all around lol; it's always a good time when someone has something to say and knows how to say it well)
Aw thank you :) Appreciate the feedback. I'll try to nail down the grammar in any theoretical future videos, I got too angsty close to release and didn't give it much polish.
Holy shit, this is your FIRST video??? This is incredible! And as the cherry on top, it’s by far one of the most considerate and constructive rebuttals of analysis that I’ve EVER seen on the internet! You’ve earned yourself another subscriber. I’m excited to see what you may talk about next!
Immediately subscribed after the video. Brilliant work. You made me feel too much to put into words. What a beautiful thing, to be so connected like this, over our shared passion of a single story or idea or world.
i personally have allways enjoyed the relationship between undertale and its fandom. toby got to watch someone who at the very least they were close with get both a god complex and near endless fear from their fandom in the form of homestuck and andrew hussie. so when that all started happening to undertale, if im remembering correctly, he explicitly stated he was terrified, both of the fandom and for himself. i dont know if the two were related or not, but i have to geuss seeing this parallel, seeing yourself get sucked into something you saw destroy someone has to stick with you. so, with undertales narrative hinging on the idea that its both good to keep these connections with characters, and to let them go. to sort of let them die and mourn them through fandom, and then see fandom do all of this, it feels almost like the deltarunes plotline got effected by its own outside world. a warped vision of what should have been an idealized future, where people suffer from what power they gain, that the land of imagination is given so much vibrance that you can end up losing the world outside from the darkness flowing from the pit you cant help but reach into again. that yes, here there are still people, connecting, liveing and seeing their lives through, but somehow each one has been touched by game artifacts or warped by the players actions. the fact they wrap grief up into it with noelle is unsuprising, its that same world shattering. the fact they wrap freedom up in that, say its gold that will destroy everything if you dare to pull to much is unsuprising, its that same world shattering. we know a single character is good, that being susie, a rather regular character in this fantastical world, she is honstly the strangest thing in all the narrative. the only things we know she has done is cut ties with her family, and get attatched to kris.
First video?! I'm shocked by this! You have a knack for it! I went into this just expecting a counterargument on what Jaru stated in that theory, but ended up finding a genuinely well-built video, with its own story, and care being put into it! One of the best Deltarune videos I've lately watched. I can only hope you press on!
I'm glad someone made this video! While I do not understand the people who get SEVERELY up in arms about this particular video of Jaru's, I can say I did get a tiny bit frustrated with it. Mostly because the whole thing of suspension of disbelief being bad storytelling kinda irks me in general. It's a personal problem if you can't connect with these kinds of stories, not the fault of the story itself. This is the entire premise of ARGs. REAL ARGs, not just unfiction stories, as people tend to get them mixed up. Online stories that require audience participation to progress. (Or NON-ARG Unfiction projects that don't require our participation, but DO interact with the audience, see: Diminish) I see a lot of people in the comments of these types of series, trying to ruin the fun of those actually trying to participate, because they themselves can't personally do that- or they refuse to. Theres nothing wrong with metanarratives, or breaking the fourth wall, as long as the story is well written. You can DISLIKE that sort of media, but then that is an opinion. You do not have to try to reach for a narritave where that isn't the case just because you personally don't like it. Not that the story Jaru presents isn't a neat idea, it is! It's just the attitude of it HAVING to be that way in order for the story to work that just...makes me sigh a bit. But nothing warrants outright harrasment over it, at the end of the day, it is just a game. A game that no one has the full story of yet! Anything can happen. Also, I know someone else has already brought it up, but I think Oneshot is a better example than Doki Doki. Love Doki Doki, though. But I believe Oneshot really perfected that kind of storytelling, in my opinion.
I'll be honest, I did consider talking about OneShot instead of Doki Doki, but I tried playing it and I didn't like it very much... I apologise for my crimes
Oh my God, thank you for explaining that Toby Fox as a creative is not an unchanging or predictable monlith. He can do anything he wants, and to imply anyone but his team and friends know his motives or creative inclinations beyond those we are presented as consumers of his work is inaccurate and I feel leads to a bit of flanderization or patronization of him as a person. We may enjoy his work and presence, but he is still a rather private individual, yknow?
100%! I think some people are tempted by a very calcified interpretation of Toby Fox. Some creatives certainly do have a "brand", but it's hard to pinpoint Toby's other than like, 'funny', 'meta', 'trickster'.
You've got yourself a sub, man. Notifications on, can't wait for your next vid! This is a really cool examination of suspension of disbelief vs narrative in Deltarune. I for one can suspend disbelief pretty damn easily, so it's never been an issue for me regardless. So glad to have you on the scene! And I'm with you, Jaru's rad.
Oh, my gosh. New theory channel that constructively discusses another theorist's theory without disrespecting them for the theory? Yes. Count me in! No, but seriously, I'm in a ton of theory communities for different games and stuff and I never see people respectfully discuss another person's theories without just straight up calling the other person stupid. It's really discouraging for someone who wants to make theory videos but worries that their video will get laughed at if it doesn't perfectly align with canon. Like me, for example. Thanks for doing this the right way and helping to encourage constructive discussion in this theory community at least. :)
Thank you so much for making this video, it resonated really, really strongly with me. not only is it another theory that expands my view of my already favorite game ever, but, it really spoke out to everything that actually made it my favorite piece of art. You did such an amazing job, keep on rockin!
When i saw this title and thumbnail I assumed it was yet another article of senseless cancel culture, and dismissed it out of hand. Only when Andrew Cunningham recommended it did i give this video a chance. I couldn't be happier that I did.
This is such a cool video!!! I absolutely love the last section!! And honestly after watching Jaru's video I also was disagreeing with his points ( love his content a lot tho), so seeing this video in my recommended made mw really excited. Like, hell yeah, a well articulated point that I was thinking about but couldn't phrase myself! That also creates a healthy discussion! Love to see it)) And after watching it, I found even more depth and interesting interpretation and commentary on the state of community in whole and our relationship with the game than I expected. Absolute respect, this video deserves so much love)
6:20 Y'all are thinking about this wrong. Deltarune's concept, characters, story, and especially ending, predates Undertale. Undertale is a sequel/parody of Deltarune. Deltarune is NOT like Undertale. Undertale IS like Deltarune. We are working backwards, but are trying to work forward. We are in season 2 of Buffy, after exploring and discovering every single detail about Angel. We scream "They're using Cordelia and Angel!!! They showed Oz!!!" When these are the origins of them. This doesn't usually happen, and if we ignore what Toby Fox says outside of the game, we have no evidence (yet) that it has. Concepts like Frisk, Chara, and Gaster might have come AFTER Deltarune's design. OR they might be Deltarune Easter eggs, like the (probably) picture of Kris, Susie, and Ralsei behind Sans' house on a specific FUN level. Of course, because the ACTUAL game Deltarune is made AFTER Undertale, you can get back flow references, like Asgore's flowers (probably). BUT they cannot alter the main story, as it predates Undertale. Toby Fox stated that Undertale was a proof of concept for Deltarune. This means there is valuable information in Undertale about Deltarune, but it is as a sequel/parody. Like drawing information about Buffy from Angel, there's a level of spoilers. Cordelia can't die because you know she goes to LA after highschool. You know when Angel shows up, because he announced it already, and you saw what happened when he came back. BUT Toby is cryptic, he's not gonna make those spoilers obvious, like a cartoon villian, he only leaves clues and calling cards. Until the hellmouth is opened and closed, Angel didn't give us enough information. You will never know that Felicia Day played a slayer by watching Angel.
Rewatching this again and the music piece that starts at 14:05 and continues throughout the rest of the section is genuinely beautiful. - Maybe it’s your awesome speech that electrifies it even more, but it might be the best rendition of the song I have ever heard. I would implore you to upload it somewhere. Thank you for this video.
I never really thought about how little we actually know about Toby Fox... Dude made one game and 2 mods... The latter being made long enough ago that we can't even consider it the works of the modern Toby Fox we know and obsess over, or can we? for all we know deltarune can have a tie in with the earthbound fanagmes, we just don't know enough about him to say for certain...
Here’s my crackpot hypothesis; Deltarune is a rite of passage or ritual, much like a certain abandon-ware from 1997. What Spamton saw in the shadow crystal was not just the sky & the sun, it was in fact, Popol Maya!
Okay p2 of the concept; What if the glowshards & shadow crystals are meant to connect together & form a single vision that reveals what each secret boss has lost, what you have lost, & what the characters have lost. The true form of the prophecy, the tale of the serpent who’s body been torn into bands, seeking to reattach their pieces 1 by 1.
This was really cool!!!! Went in expecting yknow your usual analysis but came out with a pretty neat deep dive into theory crafting and belief suspension in general! Neat!!!
I think you're on point about the themes that the game is playing with. The idea of the meta-narrative and the regular narrative fighting, through the story's characters, over which gets to be in control and have freedom is very compelling. If the Weird Route shenanigans continue then I believe they're going to be focused on subverting the normal path in a variety of ways, rather than "merely" be about killing as much as possible or getting stronger stats.
“I really love this content creator but they’re wrong on this.” Better than most every fan ever Also, I love Jaru’s theories… until the part where he talks about Deltarune like its just Undertale. I like Deltarune as Deltarune. I like Undertale as Undertale. He clearly has a preference towards Undertale. I don’t know how to say it I just don’t like it. A more… rude debunking theory words it better than I could. I don’t like how rude they are to his theory in the second half tho :p
Super underrated channel. Also, Deltarune being the opposite Undertale makes sense, maybe the best or the good ending of the game will be the barrier the light world and dark world (and, at same time, the narrative and the meta-narrative) be preserved, the opposite of the barrier being broken in the pacifist route in Undertale
This is the best Deltarune theory video I have ever watched. Thank you so, so, SO much for making this. I really needed to hear your concluding words about the state of the fandom, yknow? Deltarune has become such a huge part of my life.
@@snarlinger Yeah lmao, but also it has a lot of genuinely interesting examples relating to this discussion. Foremost being the expansion and contraction of the scope of the story and the 4th wall. Worm takes a lot of inspiration from a lot of different types of media and the way it pulls back the layers of each one is worth examining. It's a story book, an adventure game, a video game, a comic, anime, a quest, theater, chess and a bunch of other stuff. This let's it play with where the 4th wall is. Now examine Andre Hussie, the character. He's a part of both the narrative and meta narrative. There are cards which are both knives and cards, brawsuleums and decks. Basically Homestuck is genuinely an amazing tool to analyze delta rune. The survey program is sburb. No I'm not editing this
This was so fantastically done! You make your points so well and so gracefully. You had me engaged the whole time-subscribed before the halfway mark. I was so shocked to see this looks to be your first video! Really well done.
Thanks for watching friends. Apologies for the hackles-raising UA-cam-y title.
Let me know your thoughts. I've never made a video before so I'm eager for feedback. Particularly when it comes to audio and video editing (help me...). Comment here, or if you're fancy e-mail me at snarlinger@pm.me. Surely UA-cam will format that e-mail address correctly.
Also, and not to suggest that I have this power, but don't harass anyone I talk about in this video... That would be lame.
Credits in the description btw
You've gone and created something above and beyond. I went and thought this was a seasoned UA-cam channel. Keep up the impeccable sound quality and editing!
Earthbound: Halloween Hack actually does have a meta-narrative as anyone who reads the design docs would tell you.
All throughout the hack it tells you that you have a choice, it tells you to spare Doctor Andonauts, yet the only choice you can make as you play is a set path to killing him.
As Toby said in the design docs, this is intentional, you do have a choice in this game and it's the choice to turn the game off, to walk away and not fight the final boss. It's the only real choice in the game, the only thing that brought it down was the fact no one realised that.
That is why Susie spells it out in chapter one of deltarune I believe, "your choices don't matter here"
1.the strange thing about the way undetale handle the relationship between the meta and non meta narrative is that it almost always through 1 or 2 characters.mainly through flowey
2.it seems like flowey and gaster switch roles in deltarune while still keeping character.flowey is only talked a out and never seen but unlike gaster flowey likes the spotlight and so it more obvious.gaster is now playing a more important role(maybe as the villan)but is still in shadows.
Another game actually (in my personal opinion) better demonstrates the idea you were talking about better than I think DDLC does.
OneShot.
You are EXPLICITLY a character in the game, being stated to be the "god of this world" on multiple occasions. You take the role of being the guide of the young "messiah" and not-cat Niko deliver the "sun" to a tower at the center of the world, and in doing so, return home. *You are told this, explicitly, almost at the very beginning of the game, by TWO separate characters.*
As such, they will frequently talk to you, ask questions, and look to you for support. As if that weren't enough, the game has increasing numbers of glitches that the people of this world are fully aware of, and treat almost like a continual, worsening natural disaster. It has you digging through files or dragging the game window off of your screen to reveal solutions to puzzles. At one point, it is literally confirmed to be a simulation running on your computer.
And yet, in spite of all that, it still maintains suspension of disbelief. You still want to help Niko go home. You still want to save this world and everyone in it, even if it is all "fake." The "world machine," the AI that the world is running on, literally even argues this point in favor of why it should be left to die.
Firstly THANK YOU for adding captions!! I have audio processing disorder and often struggle when youtubers don't add captions, so this was such a nice gesture to see it already there without me having to ask! And it made it so much easier to watch the video and follow along cognitively for me :') I think there were some moments where the music got very loud for me during "intense/creepy" portions of your video especially, where i had to adjust my volume quite a bit, but i'm unsure if that's something others were having any issues with or would want changed, so just do what you feel is best! I don't mind turning down my volume sometimes if it's just me lol (and that's another great use for captioned videos!)
Secondly, perhaps this shouldn't be a big deal to me, so sorry if it's weird to mention like this, but i've been feeling pretty exhausted about all the transphobia i've seen online, politically, and in pockets of this fandom lately when it used to at least feel less pronounced from my perspective (though ofc it's always existed, and waves of ignorance come and go depending on a lot of factors). Anyway, being trans and queer in a world that can still be quite hostile at times makes it that much more meaningful to find solidarity and inclusion.It was honestly comforting to hear you so plainly say that there is an issue of transphobic harassment that can happen in the fandom sometimes. Whenever deltarune theorists make it clear to their audiences that harassment and/or bigotry shouldn't be normalized, by saying that outright especially when things get particularly bad, it makes me feel a lot safer in this community and I feel more understood too. Thank you for that.
Finally, as a chronically ill and disabled deltarune fan, i'm sorry you've been struggling with health issues lately and I wish you all the best! Please prioritize your wellbeing and rest when needed! If you have more art and work to share here, i'll look forward to viewing it whenever it arrives :) Take care and hope you can have gentler moments ahead of you!
The suspention of Disbelief Papryus
What did he get suspended for
Bahaha. I wanted to make this joke in the video but couldn't find a place for it!
Intersteller theories
I actually laughed when I saw this
@@jordanator7199he fell for someones shit
Fantastic video. Not only did you dismantle my arguments in an incredibly thorough, efficient, and convincing manner, but you also did so with complete decency and respect. And just to put icing on the cake, you then turned around and made one of the best DELTARUNE theory videos of all time, while somehow making a better Jaru-style video than anything I've ever done. You absolute mad lad. xD
P.S. Take care of yourself! Don't want one of the best in the community having nightmares and paranoia on my watch! x)
😭😭😭 Thanks so much man. That's very kind. I tried my best to honour your argument because I deeply respect your work. But don't kid yourself, there's no Jaru-style video like a Jaru video!
I'll try to quell the nightmares, but no promises... the beast in my wardrobe is a hungry one.........
This is the best ending
@@Kriscropthis is what game/theory communities ought to be
Many complain of the "brainrot" and chaos that have erupted from the deltarune community, and while i think its overblown, synthesis like this is wonderful.
@@Gooberpotomous absolutely correct
the deltarune community keeps casually birthing some of the best youtubers/essayists of the decade, amazing first video
Why do so many fellow Touhou fans also like video essays-
@@PhantomGato-v- maybe it's because i can't play most games im interested in and have to research lore through essays and iceberg videos 😭(i've only played EoSD)
So so kind, thank you :)
Another game that disproves jarus idea that the 4th wall being shattered makes the story irrelevant is Oneshot.
The game flat out tells you that it is a game. Even explaining why you downloaded it.
Yet the story still matters.
That's right! I don't know how I forgot.
Help my Oneshot Niko fell asleep and won't wake up. I'm afraid to look up any spiders so did I get the bad ending and is there any way to fix this???
Use the power of the black clover and override the power @@sethd.8381
@@sethd.8381 wait seriously? I wasn't expecting to need to do a walkthrough? lol
Assuming yer not joking. Here's what you do.
As well as I can remember.
Go into the games file and look for a file with the authors symbol as an icon. It's a black clover.
Open that file then turn on oneshot itself. That should get you on the right track. Good luck
@@sethd.8381 There are timers in a certain room that have something to do with a different ending iirc. I haven’t thought of one shot in a long while tho
So, I dislike most of Jaru's theorys, but if his theories are purposefully being outlandush, I guess that's mostly because I never "grew up" with, like, hugely absurd theorys like Sans is Ness or something. If a theory isn't meant to be taken that seriously, I usually only enjoy it if that unseriousness is very obvious to me, and I don't really get that vibe from Jaru's theories.
I feel like they're meant to be taken seriously, but ironically, especially for the Asriel is a pile of dust theory, I wouldn't be able to suspend my disbelief enough to believe that.
So when it came to criticism videos about specifically him, while I get that it could've been nicer, and it's never pleasent to hear something that you like being "made fun of" so to say, it was kinda nice to hear that others don't agree with everything as well.
On a different note, I found your response and theory very interesting and enjoyable, you also have a very nice way of narrating.
I think Jaru's video also fails to understand how Undertale uses metafiction. Sure, save for Chara talking to the player at the end of the geno route, every instance of 4th wall breaking is justified in-universe, but you only really get that once you have the full picture.
If you're a first time player and you kill Toriel, feel bad about it, and reload to spare her, and then witness Flowey calling you out about it, you don't go "oh, I guess this is a universe where the save function canonically exists and this flower can access it" you go "OH SHIT THIS FLOWER CAN BREAK THE 4TH WALL" and that realization doesn't make you disengage with the game until the true lab or the end of geno makes you realize that the save system is canonical. Instead, you get engaged deeper as Undertale rips away a method you were using to disengage, it calls you out for trying to use your position higher than the 4th wall to disengage.
Also, just wanna generally say this is great analysis. Even if it turns out to not be true about Deltarune, I love the way you present Gaster here, the idea of this figure who preys on our desire to care about stories and reveals the malevolent side of becoming invested in something, obsession with fiction and fandom creating a monster. If Delatrune doesn't have that concept in the end, I might have to make a story that does myself, cuz that's SUPER compelling.
Thank you so much! Totally agree re: how it actually feels to play Undertale in the moment; the overlapping meaning only coheres by the end of the game, so where does our engagement sit in the meantime?
Considering one of the themes seems to be escapism, a bit of meta commentary on how ppl use fiction to escape and can sometimes care about these characters more than real people is a valid one. Especially with Susie and Kris outright having more dark world friends than real world ones, yet using fiction as a method of connecting.
Good comment
(Minor nitpick, apologies) Flowey talks directly to the player at the end of the True Pacifist ending.
@@Magma-Idiot-2001 incorrect, Flowey refers to the player by the name entered at the start of the game, which we know is Chara's name. Given Flowey is never shown otherwise to know the player exists and through Asriel is shown to know Chara has some control over Frisk it's far more likely he's talking to Chara rather than the player
I think a big thing jaru and other people forget is Toby worked on and made fan work of Homesuck while being super close to Hussie. Ion think he cares about playing with storytelling conventions like suspension of disbelief or twisting narrative/meta narrative in a way you usually can’t get away with
Agreed. Once you realize that Toby Fox was probably influenced by a comic where both the author and reader are in-universe characters who influence the plot and also die, the idea of the player being a character in Deltarune is a lot easier to believe
@@insertcreativenamehere7584 exactly my point. At this point anything could happen and I bet he’ll pull it off no matter how off the wall it is
@@soulking2007 Can’t wait for the part where Gaster kills the Annoying Dog with a machine gun and then a younger version of him beats up the dialogue box with a crowbar
@@insertcreativenamehere7584 and then uboa and madotsuki spawn in and fortnite-dance on the annoying dogs corpse
@@scootie_scoot
And then Masada Sensei appears and says: What is this? Some kind of Deltarune?
8:35 an infinitely more obvious example of this once you think of it is OneShot. OneShot has a deep internal narrative with characters that have their own hopes, dreams, desires, and stories. But, the player is not just referenced, they are directly a CHARACTER in the story, tasked with assisting Niko in completing the quest as it will open a way for them to return home. You aren't just playing as the character in a world that doesn't matter and has no consequences- you are guiding a child through a dark forest and they RELY on you to make it. You don't at any point think while playing the game "None of this really matters, it's just a game" for the same reason you become invested in the story of any OTHER media; because it has an internal narrative with characters to become invested in. But despite that, your influence is recognized and greatly important.
You know I've never even realized while playing the game how it's used as a tool to invest you- so much goes into videogame design to play with your head and you don't even notice it! Oneshot messed with me bad and made me feel so personally responsible for Niko- the only moment where I got pulled out of the game, (at the ending where I wanted to experience it all over again, reusing how I reset Undertale by deleting files) dragged me RIGHT back into the narrative with the true ending
@@rindademon3339 Yep. Sometimes breaking the barrier between narrative and meta-narrative makes people MORE invested, it just takes balance between development of both parts. Really you need probably a 70/30 split for narrative to meta-narrative, if not even more narrative (I'd argue Undertale is closer to 95/5. The story stands entirely on its own without needing to acknowledge the player at all).
Because if the player is reminded equally if not more often that the world they're seeing doesn't REALLY exist, they become less immersed in its characters and consequences, and you get something like IMSCARED, which is a meta-narrative story, told to us with narrative tools (the game itself).
As long as the player is given enough time to immerse themselves in the world before being reminded that it isn't THEIR world, it keeps them in a loop of getting hooked, being reeled in, and then getting released again.
@@GameJam230 ya exactly. When niko breaks down crying near the end of the base game. You don't think.
"Oh this is just code playing a role. I don't care"
You think
"This is a scared lost child. And their fate is in the palm of my hands. With the deciding point, quickly approaching. I'll do my best to keep niko safe"
Nah I completely disagree, I can't fully get into OneShot's lore because of how involved the player is in the narrative, because that just makes me remember I'm playing a game way too much. Especially when they try to imply that the world of OneShot is somehow like a world that got turned into a game that ended up on our internet? Way too meta for its own good
@@solairedude7119 you say that, but really that just makes you the acception.
It seems more like you're too critical for your own good
"I dont watch deltarune theories to get to the ultimate truth, but to immerse myself further"
You get it.
I always thought that the way the Lightners see the dark worlds was some kind of parallel to how We the players see deltarune.
Just another story to get lost in. A method of escapism.
I absolutely loved this video by the way.
*_-the ceo of 💀_*
100%, I buy it :)
(excluding Ralsei's dark world, as we don't know much about it, other than it being another home, for darkners and lightners)
the 1st dark world: Board Games
the 2nd dark world: The Internet
the 3rd dark world: TV Shows (& Movies)
I wonder if every dark world will have the motif of stuff you can use to distract yourself
@@mariotheundyingconsidering gerson was a writer maybe we'll get a comic book themed DW in the church
Like Jaru said in his video, the Stanley Parable is unremarkable if you follow everything the narrator says, the fun comes from messing with him, yet he claims the suspension of disbelief is broken. He’s mistaking the lame ass story the narrator made up as the true story. The real story is how you interact with the narrator, and you believe he’s a real person.
So that’s another game Jaru cites that breaks the fourth wall and keeps its suspension of disbelief
My suspension of disbelief is very real in the stanley parable. I really feel like i am bantering with the guy on the other side of the screen
@@niftylittlenameIt feels like you're on a DnD game, going out of your way to mess with him
Or playing a game your friend likes but being purposely bad at it to see his reaction.
@@indie_gamer7 it feels really stupid to say that tsp breaks suspension of disbelief. The suspension of disbelief is not in stanley's struggle or the office, its if you believe that the narrator is a genuine person with reactions that controls this game. When he gets scared of the actual devs making achievements on the game that he did not know, his panicked reaction reinforces the suspension of disbelief that he is an entity with consciousness in this game.
Deltarune would be the same, the suspension of disbelief would not be broken, it would be rested on making the bridge, the survey program, between us, believable. Its not about destroying the 4th wall. Its about making a tunnel in this barrier, and coat it in narrative
I watched his video so I could watch this one and he just didn't seem like he knew what he was talking about ngl
100% agree.
Something I find interesting is that Jaru assumes that the player would break suspension of disbelief, when in thousands of comics and many many people's headcannons it is already an unchangable fact? And their disbelief hasn't been broken.
He argues that that's because it hasn't become a major part of the story, but everyone already believes it WILL, so their disbelief should already be broken? Because its already in everyone's mind.
Yeah, that's a fair point. If everyone's already running on that assumption and they're still invested, then what's the issue hey? I suppose though that there's a difference between fanworks exploring the concept and the game exploring it. For one, if the game does it, it feels much more "real", more tangible than a headcanon. That counts for something. And while a fanwork could explore the idea really well, the game might screw it up, put too much focus on the epic fourth wall break and not enough on the narrative that drew us in. I think that's a real risk, but not a guaranteed one (or even one I expect to happen...).
I mean, that doesn't really prove anything.
People can believe anything they want to, they can believe that the Earth isn't round or that smurfs are real but that doesn't really change anything.
It's not about believing things it's about beliving your beliefs are more valid than others. Theoretically you can still believe Smurfs are real if you can come up with really really good explanations for the fact that the Smurfs are fiction created for comic strips.
Either way, ou can still engage with something even if your disbelief is broken or if it has bad writing.
I still enjoy the edgy Adventure Time fanfics about Finn being in a coma and the entire show being part of his imagination i read when i was 10. Heck, Garten of Banban has been my favorite guilty pleasure in the last year or so even if i know it sucks balls, i just love those silly clay monsters.
Can you explain why it doesn't break suspension of disbelief? Or why it breaking suspension of disbelief isn't bad?
@@Quinhala11 the main point is.
If the player being connected directly to kris breaks suspension of disbelief
Why isnt it already broken?
It literally doesnt matter what Toby has planned for Deltarune, because everyone already believes the player is the villain, the Doomsday scenario Jaru suggests for the future happened in 2018, and got a thousand times stronger in 2021, yet, everything is fine, the suspension of disbelief is not broken, so its not as he says.
@@Quinhala11 Don't you get it?
Sure people can believe what they want to, but Jaru asserts that the player throws the narrative in the trash. Jaru believes that it makes the world of deltarune meaningless.
But my point is simply this:
People still find the world of deltarune meaningful, despite their belief in the player.
Not that they're "still able" to enjoy the bullet mechanics, or still able to find some moments cool.
Even with APPARENT foreknowledge that the player is a participant, the people playing... don't lose interest?
I don't see how the scenario we're currently in would change by the reveal, considering everyones already caught on?
My argument for it not breaking disbelief is evidence based, much like Jarus attempted argument against it. If so many people aren't losing interest in the game, despite the knowledge of the player...
Why would suspension of disbelief be shattered, by a reveal everyone already sees coming?
@@niftylittlename
And my point is that people can believe in anything they want and can also be engaged in things that break suspension of disbelief or are bad or wrong.
It is broken, if people believe the Player is evil and it's all a videogame made up by Gaster in Piles of Asriel dust's computer to watch us play it, then that means it being fake is an active part of the story, so the suspension of disbelief is broken. You can still enjoy it as what you imagine it to be.
Jaru's point (and mine atp) isn't about people beliving what they believe, it's about the game as we see and the intentions of the creator as expressed in it, if other people want to ignore Toby and DELTARUNE and spread misinformation and their own ill-informed interpretations of the game so be it.
Like you said, it's not like this never happened before, misconceptions about characters and stories will always happen, just last month or so i saw a video with a lot of views about how Gaster wrote the entries in True Lab instead of Alphys even if that's not true and bad to Alphys' character.
"It literally doesn't matter what Toby has planned"
as you said.
"Q: How many endings are there?
A: One.
Q: Then doesn't that mean nothing I do matters?
A: There's something more important than reaching the end."
If this game really does end up breaking the "connection" between the player and the game, that doesn't mean the story meant nothing.
Personally, I like the 'Player is The Angel' theory, 'cause it makes you an actual character in the story... but it's still basically the same thing :p
Sometimes it’s the journey that matters, not the destination
I think the angel is supposed to be the character in the game that follows what the higher power/player says.
Noelle was called the angel, and followed the orders of Kris/Player. I do think the player is a character tho! Cuz Spamton implies there’s a bigger world out there, and that can be anyone.
@@BelBelle468 Also a good interpretation! Noelle definitely has strong Angel parallels, but I dunno if I'm convinced she's literally The Angel at this point in the story
@@goomylife5403 yeah we don’t really have any definition of what an angel even is besides ppl thinking she’s got “angel” qualities (a couple of darkners and spamton saying so doesn’t mean it’s true). It’s kinda like how I’m unconvinced Flowey lacks a soul due to his actions and the fact we don’t know what a soul is (made more apparent by Kris and the player somehow sharing one in Deltarune).
The only thing we really know about the angel is that it can be anyone, like how the player/chara is the angel in geno and Asriel is the angel in pacifist cuz of the prophecy. Which of course lends more credence to the idea the player could be an angel like in geno, and doesn’t need to be the mouthpiece of the player like in pacifist.
Would be better if the player angel theory was just an endgame moment rather than the center of the plot. Like Flowey, Gaster after the lightners tearfully let go of darkners according to the don't forget theme will call out on your addiction towards videogames rather than the player being the final boss. We are the angel because the lightners serve us and we change the lives of the lightners therefore we aren't undesirable at all.
As I commented on Jaru's video, I think the biggest thing to keep in mind when looking at Deltarune's story is that it isn't strictly a narrative- a relationship between characters in-universe, OR a meta-narrative- relationship between the game and us. Rather what Toby crafted with Undertale and is likely continuing to Deltarune is a sort of "narrative-meta-narrative"- the relationship between the narrative and the meta-narrative. They are created intentionally to be so intrinsically connected to each-other that one can choose to look at the story from either perspective and they would be at least "partially" correct.
i don’t think getting immersed in deltarune is bad, but i also think we sort of need, like… something else. like, this game is near and dear to all of our hearts, and nothing is going to change that, but there’s only so much we can get out of it while singlemindedly obsessing over it, yearning for the next chapters, going mad over knowledge that exists, tangibly, in one man’s head, but we just can’t access yet.
we need to fill our lives with other things, other hobbies and media, not neglect our lives and ourselves. for me, i’ve been studying for my driver’s license recently, and have been thinking about finally trying to go to college. my life’s moving with or without me and i need to get with it, and stop living in (sometimes literal) darkness. it’s already been making the wait for the next chapters more bearable, especially considering they’ll probably come out while i’m (hopefully) in my first terms of college. but at the same time…
people always focus on the dark subsuming the light in the prophecy, which, fair enough, considering the whole roaring thing, but… what happens if the *light* subsumes the *dark*? there’s a BALANCE between them. the objective was never to eliminate dark, to eliminate, well, fantasy and imagination, it’s just to create a balance. maybe the light subsuming the dark wouldn’t be as cataclysmic as the roaring, but i think it’d just be… well, sad. a quiet death. a loss of innocence, even.
what i guess i’m trying to say is…
we can’t forget that light in our souls. the promise in our hearts. the thing that captivates us all so much about toby fox’s work in the first place-we all carry it with us, always. it enhances our lives, and in turn, our lives make the experience richer. if we stop believing in it, believing in fantasy itself, all is lost.
don’t forget.
so, here is something i don't think is well talked about enough in this video. a message from a painful game made by painful devs. that when a story tells you it's a story, there is no reason to be mad. you knew this from the begining. why would a book telling you that it's story is not real upset you? you already knew that. why would a game make you mad when it says "I'm a game" when you already knew, before you even bought it, that it was all just a game?
man, pathalogic is so cool.
Love Pathologic :) At least, the Pathologic through the lens of that one Hbomberguy video. I never played it...
@@snarlinger yeah same.
@@snarlinger You should play the sequel. It can only be described as a video game adaptation, of the first game; it's a lot more accessible.
Also it's not really a sequel, it's a remake.
This is the logic I couldn’t understand ppl hating when danganronpa did it. I think a lot of danganronpa has subpar writing but its finale is one of the better written things. And I can’t understand why ppl dislike it, cuz a lot of their reasoning amounts to “but they said it’s fake and a game!”. Which is what they surely had to know after picking it up. Why does the game acknowledging it’s a game make it any or or less what it already is?
*Simple:* Because a large point of escapism, and storytelling in general, is that you _immerse_ yourself in a fictional world. Unless it's something like satire (where the point is whimsical comedy), you typically want to maintain your suspension of disbelief so that you can you feel emotional responses more profoundly and care about the characters/world in a deeper way. Stories will often encourage you to do this by giving you a protagonist (POV character) to see the world through, much like Deltarune does with Kris and all their backstory.
Why? To give the story more stakes and emotional weight. Sure, *you* know its not real, but the characters usually don't. Their fear and conflicting emotions are still real to them. Therefore, you empathize with them more easily. Which means you're (likely) affected by it more.
However, if the characters and world are making it clear that they know it's just fiction and they aren't real, then it makes all their emotional responses feel disingenuous. They're not real, so there isn't any stakes. And the characters know that. They feel more like actors than real people, and the best stories don't usually feel like this.
I think Jaru's meta narrative Undertale take is a little weird, since there are enough 4th wall breaks to make it clear that we, the person in the real world, are actually a character in the game of some sort.
But in relation to Deltarune I find the worry of suspension of disbelief almost nonsensical, since such a huge part of the story actively wants to tell, and is, about us, the real world person, being part of this game world.
What 4th wall breaks in UT make that clear?
I've had conversations about this topic too many times (shamefully), but i think you're probably thinking of either: 1. Flowey's speech at the end of pacifist, even if Flowey directly refers to Chara at in his last lines. Or: 2. Chara's speech at the end of genocide, even if Chara ask for "your" soul and after they take it and you do pacifist they possess Frisk's body, so they're talking to Frisk.
Obviously Chara and Frisk stand in for us in both of those instances and that's Jaru's point. Metaphorically UT and DR are commenting on viddeogames and how people play them, but it's also a story played straight with characters inside a world.
No part of Deltarune's story requires "the real world person" to be part of it.
The conflict between Kris and "the soul" could be about Kris and The Angel, or Kris and Chara, or Kris and piles of Asriel's dust, it's not required to be about Kris and "a real world person sitting in a computer clicking on buttons.
@@Quinhala11 When Flowey monologues in the genocide route he says something about "those pathetic people that want to see it. But they are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that's watching right now, aren't they." He's only speculating there, but what character in Undertale could it refer to at that point? Most characters are dead by then. Is he referring to Alphys because she just watches things happen through her cameras? It seems weird for him to say that she wanted to see the genocide route happen but was just too weak to do it herself though.
@schulterdewelt3989 Yes, and that genocide dialogue actually only triggers when the game detects video capture software, ie it is to spook the audience of streamers specifically. If it always happened, you could argue it was something else, but yeah, Flower does kind of call out the audience, even if he isn't completely sure of it himself.
@@Quinhala11 Basically what you assumed, yes.
You can just ignore the player, if you want, but I think it misses the point of the games.
@@Ammiteur9
Not really, it's no different from Flowey metaphorically being a player who consumed all the content in a game to the point of exhaustion and desensitization while also being an undead goat boy who projects his desire to play with his childhood best friend again onto Frisk.
Something I find interesting about this is that Undertale has a similar but less potent point to make here. If you compare how Flowey treated the reset power and why a Player might use it, Undertale argues that it's *when you the player* refuse to suspend your disbelief that you get something like the Genocide route. The player has decided NOT to treat the game or the characters in it like they matter, thus they get a stripped down, boring, downer of an experience that only truly is challenging at the very end. In such a way it primarily just keeps you from your satisfying conclusion for longer.
Undertale says that engaging with a story DESPITE knowing it is just a game is a *good thing*,
I think the barrier in undertale has another metaphorical theme through the lense of fandom. Like it's a barrier only a human can cross through to the other side of it, and the characters (monsters) within the story (underground) can't leave it's context. This represents how we suspend our disbelief when we engage with a game or a story or a fandom.
And we're told throughout the game that it's easy to get out if we just get to the end, but then alphys explains that to break the barrier we would need to KILL a monster to get THEIR soul, kind of implying it's not that easy to get out of a game/story once you've made a connection with the characters. You don't wanna kill any of the monsters you've met along the way they're so fun and nice and well written! Surely mercy has to be an option here too??
It's all very representative of how easy it is to get engaged with a story and not want to leave it behind. I really love that about it
the fact you've never made a video before is genuinely impressive. you mentioned at one point how i "probably have [you] on in the background"--but while i usually do that, i actually couldn't here, because you were exceptionally captivating
this is a REALLY good video. i'm also a Jaru fan myself, and while i don't agree with a lot of his points (especially this suspension of disbelief/metanarrative one), i hate how toxic people have been about criticizing his theories. to have this video, which is respectful but yet firm in its points, which praises him while still understanding your perceived flaws in his theories, is fantastic
please continue to make more videos!!! i have subscribed and would love to see more
Thank you so much :)
I love this theory so much. I'd like to add one thing to your point: Goner kid. I'm sure you already know what happens when you give it an umbrella. They say it's not raining, that this does make them feel better, then...
One of Sans's OSTs is "It's raining somewhere else." The same character that has a photo of three people with the label "don't forget" on it. The same character lost in depression over the meaninglessness of it all. The same person that can't bring himself to care anymore.
Goner kid's last line is "Please forget about me." It was raining somewhere else, but you still gave them an umbrella. You care about them, you are connected, but... you need to forget. You need to forget about them to move on. Because they are not real, they are not here. It is not raining here, but somewhere else. In the dark.
Then they finally disappear. The world functions perfectly without them, but... they're okay with it. Letting them go shows how much you care about them.
I honestly think this gives your theory a lot of credit.
A lot less relevant, but you should look up toby's blogpost from october 2015 about Shyren. It's seemingly unremarkable, but there's just *something* about it that makes me feel like there's something deeper to it.
In terms of games that break the 4th wall, I personally love Bravely Second. For some spoilers: halfway through the game, you literally have to start a "New Game Plus" to continue the story. And the fact that you're intervening in the story is built up by the fact that our world is referred to like a celestial plane, and you find out that one of your main characters is only alive because of the spirit of someone else from our plane of existence! It's a main plot point, and his relationship with another person from our realm is a major thematic point. I know it's a soft 4th wall break, but I always found it as one of the best ways to involve the player in the game world.
"I Own you. I control your every move."- PROVIDENCE
The previous game, Bravely Default, has much the same kind of meta involvement in its narrative.
After all, [MAJOR SPOILERS]
the main character is only "alive" in that game because You, the player, are keeping him alive through controlling him.
This coincidentally happens to match up pretty well with one of the most common interpretations of what's up with Kris, too.
INCREDIBLY good shit, god damn. plenty of the stuff you touched on in the later half of this video comes rather close to some conclusions that i made as well about deltarune's meta-narrative, particularly with that focus on suspension of disbelief. i feel a lot of the sentiments you showed as well in this video about people's reaction to jaru's content, and to that particular video of his about the player; i've always tried to adopt the mentality of "it's not always about what Will be, but what Could be" when it comes to theorizing, and it does really kinda suck that people just get so hostile sometimes over people's interpretations of the game, or dumb it down to "oh it's just fanfiction disguised as a theory". like, yeah, the two do have overlap, but just because there's a story that's told with a theory doesn't always have to mean it can only be headcanon and nothing more, that's still what someone *actually* believes, and what's the harm in that, right? especially because at the end of the day, it Is just funny video game, and honestly i think the point you made about how people get so connected to DR really could play into why the current fandom may have that "tension" as you described it.
and again, as i said already, i think you really touch on the idea of DR having its narrative and meta-narrative at odds with each other super well, and it lines up a lot with what i've theorized and what i'm currently in the middle of working on as well. i know i've been slow as hell with my own output but, videos like these especially only make me more confident that whatever DR could be trying to say/do, that suspension of disbelief in any case, is pretty much the main focal point of how i think the game's meta-narrative especially is structured. not to mention, your editing/voiceover and pacing overall for this video is really good as well; hope to see more from ya if you feel an itch to keep doing DR stuff!
Aw, thanks Molly!! Hugely appreciate your feedback. And of course, I love your videos :) Totally normal to have a slow output IMO. If anything, making this video made me realise how meticulous and finicky video production actually is...
I have a theory.
a dumb theory.
more of a fanfiction.
with literally naught but a misinterpreted line of dialogue to support it.
and ages of evidence to fight it.
yet in a way, that evidence.... is a part of it?
I once was watching one of Shay's speedruns of the Snowgrave route. He was fighting Spamton Neo when I paused the video. and on the screen one of his lines of dialogue persisted: "UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU ARE ALL ALONE" and A Thought came to mind.
I went back through the video there to see the whole line.
"GO AHEAD AND [Scream] INTO THE [Receiver].
THE [Voice] RUNS OUT EVENTUALLY.
YOUR [Voice] THEIR [Voice].
UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU ARE ALL ALONE"
And The Thought spoke to me.
What if Kris IS alone?
What if Kris simply doesn't want to admit that their actions are their own?
That the entirety of their depressing life is their responsibility
And to absolve themselves of that responsibility, they instead choose to believe that SOMETHING is controlling them.
Kris could yell and scream at us for as long as they want, but those screams would go nowhere and in the end The voice, THEIR voice, will run out.
and they will realize they were all alone.
That they've always been alone.
In a game that does everything it can to convince you that you aren't Kris...
What if we don't exist?
I like that a lot :)
... i like this theory. I really, really like it. I haven't heard something like this before, and now i am genuinely interested in this idea.
i wonder if i could find anything in-game that could maybe support it? i am replaying the game right now, so I'll look out for stuff i guess?
also, forget about deltarune. the idea you suggested here could work very well as the main plot of an entire different story in itself. i feel like something like this has quite a lot of potential
Hmmm, its an interesting twist to consider and could only happens in a game like this where our presence in the story is taken for granted. I dont think thats where toby is going since a lot of the setup so far would contradict it, but its definitely worth considering.
I never really watched Jaru because I don't vibe with his theories most of the time... But it's nice of you to make a rebuttal video while being respectful and kind.
Jaru forgot that the fourth wall has been broken multiple times in Undertale.
Deltarune's plot is angling towards the player being very much part of the world, not just an actor from outside of it.
And breaking the ""suspension of disbelief"" isn't a death knell to player investment.
When is the 4th wall broken in UT?
I've had conversations about this topic too many times (shamefully), but i think you're probably thinking of either: 1. Flowey's speech at the end of pacifist, even if Flowey directly refers to Chara at in his last lines. Or: 2. Chara's speech at the end of genocide, even if Chara ask for "your" soul and after they take it and you do pacifist they possess Frisk's body, so they're talking to Frisk.
Obviously Chara and Frisk stand in for us in both of those instances and that's Jaru's point. Metaphorically UT and DR are commenting on viddeogames and how people play them, but it's also a story played straight with characters inside a world.
No part of Deltarune's story requires "the real world person" to be part of it.
The conflict between Kris and "the soul" could be about Kris and The Angel, or Kris and Chara, or Kris and piles of Asriel's dust, it's not required to be about Kris and "a real world person sitting in a computer clicking on buttons.
..Just copied and pasted from another comment.
@@Quinhala11Chara's speech after genocide is really confusing part, at least for me. Because in my opinion, they couldn't talk to Frisk. I guess Frisk is dead after Chara's hit. I've heard the theory that Chara destroyed the world itself, but it still means Frisk isn't here. So it's really difficult thing to explain.
He didn’t forget but like he explained in the video when UT breaks the forth wall there is an in game explanation that coexist with the metanarrative explanation.
When Flowey talks to us he thinks he is talking to Chara (or how we name the first human in our playthrough, not a literal player at the other side of the screen). So we insert ourselves to the game through the reincarnation of a character that was already dead. From this perspective comes his Asriel dust theory.
Other parts when UT break the fourth wall are equally explainable by in universe things. So both interpretations coexist at the same time.
I honestly agree in how he sees undertale but I feel that DR is going to be different. More like OneShot.
And my main argument for this is, why Toby is so excited to show us the ending of this game if it is going to be the exact same thing as Undertale? That doesn’t make any sense at all! If he feels that way is because he is going to tackle the theme of the connection of the player and the game in a complete new and different way.
Toby once said that he wanted to make a game SO meta that nobody would doubt is meta. I believe that deltarune is that game.
@@Quinhala11 When revealing all the bombs in the room, Mettaton says "Even my words are...!", and then his words fall _out of the text box_ and explode.
@@MattTOB618 And the Spooky music that continues playing after you leave Napstablooks house, how it changes the battle music to a spooktune, and then Washuwa and Aaron get creeped out and leave on their own.
I love it when the line between what is and isn't diagetic gets blurred.
You gotta drop the music you made for this, the Caste town arrangement specifically with the bird noise is a whole other level of relaxing
That's very kind. Considering it! "Chill piano renditions to suspend your disbelief to"...?
Deltarune is going to be an existentialist masterpiece.
23:40 - 24:10 Literally made me tear up. You put perfect words to why Undertale/Deltarune is such a special story
We might only have one complete video game, but we do remember that he was a huge fan of Homestuck to the point of living in Hussie's basement
So while he didn't write it, we know that Toby is hardly opposed to stories where the Narrative and Meta-Narrative are so inextricable that discussing one without the other is impossible
@@gameygeemer4142 what if the deltarune cosmology is just as big as homestuck?
"A Horrible crackpot theory that could come true." Hell yeah. This man knows what I want.
I dream of crackpot. It's all I ever wanted
If you're not coming up with increasingly ludicrous conspiracy theories then you're doing it wrong.
@@snarlingerwhy do you want pots with cracks on them
Don’t know what it is with youtube recently, but they’ve been recommending smaller channels more often recently, and i love it. Genuinely surprised that this is your first video bc your narration and editing is so good!!
(also jaru supremacy🗣️🔥🔥🔥)
🙏 Praise be to Jaru... Praise be to Jaru... 🙏
Wow. Genuinely, one of my new favourite videos reflecting on deltarune, and deltarune theorycrafting. In fact, this video has very much Rattled My Brain, so I'd like to spill out my thoughts on this comment, if that's alright. Firstly, the most unimportant stuff. I'm actually really impressed with the technical quality of this video. Even if the audio mixing is not quite perfect, it, along with all other facets of the editing do NOT suggest that this is some channel's with 14 subscribers first video, and although im sure i missed some, those little parts where there are eyes hiding in the dark are masterfully done, in a way that actually oddly reminds me of fight club, done just enough and just subtly enough that you'll notice it, but doubt yourself until the eventual reveal.
However, that's honestly not too important considering the actual content of the video. Firstly, I'd say it's a good rebuttal to Jaru's video, especially on how it actually goes much, much deeper than it to actually try to predict/interpret deltarune's theme's relationship with the meta-narrative/narrative, as well as the barrier between them, like, the line: "Deltarune is about suspending your disbelief to connect with things you have lost." will definitely stay lodged in my brain until I manage to finish deltarune with that perspective in mind, which, is sort of a shame, because I honestly dont believe that you 100% did it justice, honestly. Like, how, in a way, the weird route shows the negative aspect of that, reliving your trauma. Noelle's trauma of losing a loved one, of the weird kid next-door to be just a little too pushy with their "jokes". The perfect opposite to how Noelle's learns to stand up for herself and is able to (almost) have a relationship with her crush on the regular route. Even if it ends up to not be what toby was thinking, I'd wager it'll be damn close. Or maybe I'm just being irrational cuz of how much I love that interpretation, who knows.
But of course, that all pales in comparison to what I think is the most interesting discussion going on in this video. It's true that deltarune's theorycrafting community can feel... A bit desperate for new content, to say the least but I personally still love it, and specially videos like these ones, because, despite the community's strange disgust for fanfiction, these videos manage to express certain readings on the theme's and character's very much like fanfiction can provide. And that's a good thing! If you couldn't tell by this whole ass comment, I really love listening to what people have to say about things I love and chewing up their ideas and perspectives, integrating them into my own. I love deltarune for itself, just as I do it's theories, but I specially love it's theories for the connection that it grants me Deltarune, giving me new perspectives from which to enjoy it, just as I love Deltarune for the connection it gives me to other people and their perspectives.
And where is the character of a person more apparent than in the work they produce? Jaru clearly loves undertale, he analyzes deltarune in relation and from the point of view of undertale, because it's a game that he loves and surely changed him in some way. I love ShadowOfRoserade's videos analyzing Deltarune through a Queer lens because: 1: fucking relatable. And 2: It tells me, albeit indirectly, about their lived experiences, their ideas and concepts of how they think of Deltarune's themes, queerness itself, and what they expect or wish Deltarune to depict.
Just as much as this video gave me a piece of your perspective, on Deltarune, Jaru's video, and the community itself.
Honestly, I dunno where Im going with this. I just watched a movie that made me cry just before this video and I feel like you put so many thoughts in my head while I was in an emotional state I couldn't not express them, as disorganized as they may be.
Tl;dr: Isn't it so fucking cool that media can make us connect with each other and be a pathway for conversations and understandings beyond those of the original conversation?
Tl;dr: Tl;dr: Good video, made me think.
Thank you so much for your thoughts, you've rattled my brain with this as well. Big 💡💡💡 on the weird route exploring a traumatic connection!! That's brilliant.
The searching up Deltarune theory videos part was so true. First search result when I look anything up…
Honestly I'm so glad I wasn't the only one... "Deltarune theory" + filter by last week... Endless fresh Deltarune content into my disgusting maw
Geez I can barely believe this is your first video. Top notch scripting and presentation.
My two cents on the actual topic: Breaking the 4th wall, making meta-narrative an essential part of the story, does damage that story's integrity... But, only damage it, and when executed well, that damage can be like the damage inflicted on our muscles by working out. ie, it can make them stronger in the long run. In most stories, the awareness that they are just stories is something we need to ignore, avoid thinking about, so that we can maintain investment. But when the 'barrier' is breached, the narrative bleeds out into the real world, and if the narrative survives that, then we can no longer ESCAPE it by thinking "Oh, none of this is real". Monika talks to us. Flowey calls us out for our actions. Suddenly, the choices we make aren't just choices in a video game, but choices WE are making, that say something about US. Undertale's meta-narrative can be ignored, but if you do engage with it, it makes sure to rub your face in what your engagement on that level means. We become the one real contact point that cannot be denied, and only then can the game ask "what's worth more to you- Seeing this ending, or seeing these people as people?" There's a reason genocide tries to use your empathy to make your quit. There's a reason DDLC's good ending can only be seen by someone who has proven they care about these characters enough to earn it.
And besides. Earthbound started it. The final boss is unbeatable. The only thing that can touch it? Faith. A prayer to a higher power. And that power is, in no uncertain terms, the player, and their refusal to accept a bad ending.
Love it, thanks for your insight :)
I very much love this video, honestly it still hurts my soul you didnt mention oneshot though, and a microscopic amount of me would love to make a video of me bringing it up and still being humble
Do it!!
@@snarlinger lol, it would be my first video essay but ill atleast write a script
@@TheBeepMann subbing to watch
I've always interpreted the ending of Don't Forget as kind of soothing. The idea that no matter how dark it is, and no matter how bleak things become, I will always be there.
Hell, this interpretation is what lead me to use it as a lullaby for my little cousin, lmao.
Aww that's cute. It works as a good lullaby
8:31 Exactly! There were a lot of people in the comments of Jaru's video, myself included, listing games that maintain cohesion and emotional resonance even with a broken barrier. Because that's all we needed to do! One instance breaks the argument.
For myself, it's OneShot.
OneShot's entire emotional *core* - to give some medium sized spoilers here - is introducing the player to characters who are fake, telling us they're fake, and then making us love them anyway because they're so well written and lovely and they need our help. This not only works, it brings up a lot of deep philosophical questions that enhance the game. Is a level of intelligence or free will what's needed for it to be "worth it" to go out of your way to save someone? What if you have to give something up in exchange? Is merely your happiness worth someone else's whole *life*, if that life isn't real enough? Is it a moral good to care for a tamagotchi, or is it totally meaningless? Or somewhere in between? And how does the answer change if that tamagotchi has shown signs of newly emerging sapience?
That's the good shit. And the barrier needed to be broken for any of it to work.
Relevant point I'm adding part way through watching this- If you read Toby's The Making Of document for the Earthbound Halloween Hack he actually mentions the control of the player over an unwitting protagonist is an element he tried to explore (though not particularly successfully because he was like, 16). Not only are over meta dynamics something characteristic of Toby they're something he's been interested in putting in his works for a long time.
Is the implication of that last section that suspension of disbelief is actually the real villain of Deltarune because by getting us to care, obsess and fight over its fictional characters and narrative it can take away from our real lifes? And that by making this video even you are contributing to this happening? Maybe I'm thinking abot this too hard but that whole section has me shook
I designed that section to encourage interpretation, so you're not at all thinking about it too hard :) So glad it has you shook!!
damn man my autism is crying rn
This is exactly what I think is happening,
Watching AmbientRainFall part 1 video theory
And this video made me realize that
(If it happens to be true I mean)
That’s basically what undertale’s message was so I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case again here
this is exactly what i got out of this ending as well. fits well into the theme of escapism that deltarune (probably) has
What the hell, how does this not have more views? this is really awesome! hope the youtube algorithm treats you better soon!
Aw, thanks, I really appreciate that :)
Maybe because it just got posted and it's literally their first video?
I love the way this video sets up later points, it lets you figure out what you're gonna say long before you actually say it, stringing you along in this really engaging way. They're strong points, too- by the time you got to Don't Forget I mumbled out loud, to myself, in my room: "oh this guy is cooking now" LOL
Thanks heaps, that's very useful feedback :) Glad you enjoyed!
Entering into my adult life I've found that freedom can be utterly terrifying.
Too true...
Never thought about the Survey Program license agreement like that before- You're definitely onto something
I feel that Oneshot too fits that breaking the 4th wall but still keeping an investment in the story
It doesn’t have that normal gameplay beforehand but has you instead form a bond with the character via them interacting with you through the game in other ways
I’m not good at explaining things so I hope people know what I mean
underrated as hell, you got a great speaking voice too. You've earned yourself a sub
i am so glad to have found this video.
games, and stories in general, that use meta-narrative to comments on our way to consume the media they are in are always such a treat, so hearing that, the very thing that hook me even more to the story, is what apparently make it meaningless, always felt... off. since it's miles away of my own personnal experience.
ddlc wouldn't have been that special game to me if it was just a dating sim, it's meta-narrative added a layer that made the game, and it's story, all the more compelling to me, as both worked together to explore a specific theme.
"a smiley trash bag"
🤯... I mean!! Totally intentional. Totally...
I can’t believe this is your first video. I’m definitely going to be sticking around.
I think comparing the game to Doki is actually 100% wrong. The game is more like Oneshot. In Oneshot, you are a god and you are called out to. Niko talks to you directly, and you feel that. It's a simulation game where they look at the camera and say "Please don't hurt us" and you feel something because you kind of do feel like they are actually talking to you.
The games are clearly trying to make you feel like the characters inside the game are real to an extent, just like we always do. When a character dies in a show or movie you loved, it hurts people. I think this is a type of story which tries to pull you into the shallow end of the pool, keeping you still a bit distant to everything but still wading within its waters.
To me that isn't entirely breaking the barrier, but rather telling a story where I am *inside the barrier now.*
And the characters know that. And I know that. And they know when I pick an option... it's because I picked it. And that is meaningful.
Also I love Jaru's stuff. I saw a video being 30:00 and went "this is missin a 0, is this really Jaru's stuff" like yeah I was joking but also not joking like it did surprise me to see 30:00 not 3:00:00. He has wild ideas, but they're fun.
I'm back here to say that I'm watching this video for the third time and this is probably my favorite deltarune video so far.
I specially love the part where you talk about the barrier in undertale, and about the faith and sacrifice, and also the final section where you talk about crazy shit that makes us happy.
Lately, deltarune theories and content in general have been my favorite entertainment. I spend hours listening to them while I'm drawing (which has become my favorite hobbie), and I feel so seen by this video, it's so beautiful and it seems to represent everything that I feel.
I love this game and I'm so happy to find people that love it too.
Wow, your third watch!! I'm flattered, so happy that you've enjoyed it to that degree. Fully with you, Deltarune content is so so good :)
One of my favorite things about these types of videos is that good crack theory can make you think about things in entirely new ways. Even if you totally disagree with the ideas presented, creating a decent counterargument requires you to look at the work in the context of that theory and it will make you see things you didn't see before.
this video is incredible, dunno what headspace im in with all the work ive been up to and stress ive been under but this video made me emotional. the community feels weird and this feels so welcoming. thank you, please make more, youve got a big fan now
I think the reason so many care enough about this shit to get defensive enough to be shitty, is that deltarune, like undertale before it, clawed open my heart and let me bleed, and unlike every other person in my life, it told me that bleeding was okay. in undertale, i bled the agony of parting, of leaving frisk behind, knowing that was what was best for them and the people they'd grown to love. in undertale, i bled the anguish of the one i could not save, even if i tried, beyond even sense, to do so.
in deltarune, i feel the blood starting to leak, for noelle, for kris, for the rift between dreemurrs, for the unseen purple dinosaurs that shaped someone i know, for a puppet that's technically a cat. when i hear castletown's main theme, i feel that old scar coming open, just like when i heard the aching nostalgia of RUINS for the first time. when i hear don't forget, i am undone, just that little bit more.
and when ralsei has his little asides, directly to the player, be it fanservice or gameplay advice, it feels like a concert, just for me.
Lovely :)
Absolutely fabulous darling
I was genuinely shocked to see this was only your first youtube video! It completely blew me away and had me sucked in, even as I was crocheting in the background. This video made me think and feel things about Deltarune and Undertale that I have not felt from a youtube video in a very long time, congrats on a great video!
In the world of undertale (and presumably deltarune), red eyes are one of the possible eye colors. We know this because of Frisk in genocide. Frisk’s character design leaves them with closed eyes. We can’t see their eye color, Charas eyes are brown, when Chara possesses Frisk, Frisk’s eyes are open so it reveals red eyes. Also you could take Frisks closed eyes as their barrier. Frisk doesn’t see the horrible truth unless we do genocide so they stay blissfully unaware, we open up her eyes to the horror in genocide. This could also be why Kris’s eyes are covered and only uncovered when he can make their own truth.
Snarlinger, next video idea: eye theory
I believe it! There's definitely something weird going on with eyes in these games...
*they
@@snarlinger Reminder that Susie let’s her eyes visible after she protects Kris from King Spade and calls them her friend, then goes back to covering her eyes when she intimidates Monster Kid and Snowdrake in the bunker. When Lancer joins the team his handsome faces shows his eyes. And after we force Noelle to kill Berdly her eyes are shadowed.
Something is indeed going on with eyes.
Wait, when are Frisk's eyes red in geno?
@@dignatius4444 at the end of the
amazing video and editing!!! this was a super fun watch!!
also, not sure if youve done this yet, but on the topic of games that inform toby's perspective, playing moon rpg remix was eye opening. toby mentioned on twitter upon the games translation announcement that it was a game that inspired him. so many themes (undertale AND deltarune) i feel can be found here. everyone knows the mother series was an inspiration, but i really feel like playing moon rpg is helpful in gaining this kind of perspective as well. highly recommend if you havent!!
I'm not done with the video yet but One Shot breaks the barrier and uses that to cause more emotional turmoil regarding the world and your attachment to it
17:55 YOU GOT MY HOPES UP I RACED TO MOLLYS CHANNEL THINKING A NEW VID RELEASED 😭😭
Bahaha. Seems like we'll have to wait a little longer for Part 47 of Device Theory unfortunately
SAME
@@snarlinger any chance you would be interested in sharing your thoughts on the Device Theory now that the final part has been released? part 3 of Device Theory was the catalyst that made me start binging undertale/deltarune videos like a hapless addict, and would be really interested in hearing a perspective on it from someone who has a lot of preexisting ideas about the games.
Great video, man. One small critique, I don't think Undertale's narrative and meta-narrative are as seperate as you (and Jaru, for that matter) made it seem. Flowey calls out the player multiple times, whether it be his genocide monologue or his words when booting up the game post-pacifist and this intrinsically links the narrative and meta-narrative. While the barrier is there, it's something which some characters know is there and, in the case of Flowey, can see right through. The barrier between narrative and meta-narrative is itself a part of the narrative. Once more, wonderful watch, can't wait for more :)
Hugely appreciate your feedback :) Those scenes definitely do complicate the idea of the barrier. Personally I'm of the belief that the post-pacifist monologue can be read in a couple ways. Either Flowey wants the player to leave Frisk alone, or Flowey wants the soul of the fallen human to leave Frisk alone. The genocide monologue is much trickier though... what else could Flowey even be referring to when he talks about "other people watching"? You could do mental gymnastics at that point, but it's more intuitive to say that Flowey is in some way aware of what's beyond the fourth wall.
Impeccable video and puts together in words my feelings and thoughts about deltarune in a way i couldn't describe, outstanding, keep it up if you can.
As someone who got this video recommended to me, and honestly not even watching the video but knowing what it’s about, I’d like to throw my two cents into the ring with a story called Umineko. Without getting too in depth, Umineko near constantly brings to your attention the fact that it is a story. It barely falls short of saying it to your face, but it dances around that fact so much it’s almost the same thing. And yet many people who read Umineko fell in love with it, because they were able to both accept the fictionality of Umineko while at the same time accepting it on its own terms. A story telling you that it’s fictional doesn’t mean it’s impossible to enjoy it as a story. If anything, it simply provides a new lens with which to analyze the story.
Interesting, thank you :) Umineko's in my 'to play' list somewhere. Just as soon as I finish Higurashi... (decades pass)
@@snarlinger Tragedy of the Higurashi player.
I've jokingly said before that reading the entirety of Umineko spoils Deltarune.
This is genuinely such a well-crafted video. And the fact that this is your first video on this channel... kudos to you man! Hope to see many more videos from you!
I don't normally comment on videos, but I would like to send some appreciation for bringing up the fact that the game isn't finished yet. One of my only pet peeves is when media is analyzed/judged when it isn't complete, but then acting like it is. It's like checking in on a painter's work, then intermediately commenting on how it looks when it's less than halfway done. (Visual) Art can often look entirely different in process compared to the finished product. Anywho 10/10 no notes.
THIS VIDEO WAS SO GOOD!!!!!! Please make more man, your editing style is great and the way you talk so passionately about Deltarune warms my heart ❤️
For a 1st video, tbe editing here is absolutely AMAZING!! Great ideas with a good message behind it all too...hopefully this gets decent size so people can kinda understand what you mean. No matter the way Deltarune goes, we need to hold out hope it'll pay off...and we all know it will.
Thanks heaps, I appreciate it :)
@@snarlingerOf course, your welcome!! Here's to your UA-cam journey 🎉
Hot damn this is WAY too well produced for a first video. Absolutely stunning!
Btw thank you for properly captioning this video!!!!
No worries :) Any way I could improve them? Wasn't sure how easy they were to read, especially with the sound cues stuffed in there
@@snarlinger No constructive feedback here! Your punctuation was quite solid, there wasn't a ton of confusing typos, and adding in descriptions for sound effects is a wonderful touch that a lot of independent creators unfortunately end up not including.
Genuinely phenomenal stuff accessibility wise, particularly if this is your first foray into content creation - seriously appreciate it :)
(also just gotta say exceptional video all around lol; it's always a good time when someone has something to say and knows how to say it well)
Aw thank you :) Appreciate the feedback. I'll try to nail down the grammar in any theoretical future videos, I got too angsty close to release and didn't give it much polish.
Holy shit, this is your FIRST video??? This is incredible! And as the cherry on top, it’s by far one of the most considerate and constructive rebuttals of analysis that I’ve EVER seen on the internet! You’ve earned yourself another subscriber. I’m excited to see what you may talk about next!
wild that this is your only video. i dont care if its more deltarune/undertale content, i'm in
Immediately subscribed after the video. Brilliant work. You made me feel too much to put into words. What a beautiful thing, to be so connected like this, over our shared passion of a single story or idea or world.
i personally have allways enjoyed the relationship between undertale and its fandom. toby got to watch someone who at the very least they were close with get both a god complex and near endless fear from their fandom in the form of homestuck and andrew hussie. so when that all started happening to undertale, if im remembering correctly, he explicitly stated he was terrified, both of the fandom and for himself. i dont know if the two were related or not, but i have to geuss seeing this parallel, seeing yourself get sucked into something you saw destroy someone has to stick with you. so, with undertales narrative hinging on the idea that its both good to keep these connections with characters, and to let them go. to sort of let them die and mourn them through fandom, and then see fandom do all of this, it feels almost like the deltarunes plotline got effected by its own outside world. a warped vision of what should have been an idealized future, where people suffer from what power they gain, that the land of imagination is given so much vibrance that you can end up losing the world outside from the darkness flowing from the pit you cant help but reach into again. that yes, here there are still people, connecting, liveing and seeing their lives through, but somehow each one has been touched by game artifacts or warped by the players actions. the fact they wrap grief up into it with noelle is unsuprising, its that same world shattering. the fact they wrap freedom up in that, say its gold that will destroy everything if you dare to pull to much is unsuprising, its that same world shattering. we know a single character is good, that being susie, a rather regular character in this fantastical world, she is honstly the strangest thing in all the narrative. the only things we know she has done is cut ties with her family, and get attatched to kris.
First video?! I'm shocked by this! You have a knack for it!
I went into this just expecting a counterargument on what Jaru stated in that theory, but ended up finding a genuinely well-built video, with its own story, and care being put into it!
One of the best Deltarune videos I've lately watched. I can only hope you press on!
I'm glad someone made this video! While I do not understand the people who get SEVERELY up in arms about this particular video of Jaru's, I can say I did get a tiny bit frustrated with it. Mostly because the whole thing of suspension of disbelief being bad storytelling kinda irks me in general. It's a personal problem if you can't connect with these kinds of stories, not the fault of the story itself. This is the entire premise of ARGs. REAL ARGs, not just unfiction stories, as people tend to get them mixed up. Online stories that require audience participation to progress. (Or NON-ARG Unfiction projects that don't require our participation, but DO interact with the audience, see: Diminish) I see a lot of people in the comments of these types of series, trying to ruin the fun of those actually trying to participate, because they themselves can't personally do that- or they refuse to.
Theres nothing wrong with metanarratives, or breaking the fourth wall, as long as the story is well written. You can DISLIKE that sort of media, but then that is an opinion. You do not have to try to reach for a narritave where that isn't the case just because you personally don't like it. Not that the story Jaru presents isn't a neat idea, it is! It's just the attitude of it HAVING to be that way in order for the story to work that just...makes me sigh a bit.
But nothing warrants outright harrasment over it, at the end of the day, it is just a game. A game that no one has the full story of yet! Anything can happen.
Also, I know someone else has already brought it up, but I think Oneshot is a better example than Doki Doki. Love Doki Doki, though. But I believe Oneshot really perfected that kind of storytelling, in my opinion.
I'll be honest, I did consider talking about OneShot instead of Doki Doki, but I tried playing it and I didn't like it very much... I apologise for my crimes
I do enjoy the interpretation that the player plays the role of an in-universe deity or demon that is recognized by the people of the light world
Oh my God, thank you for explaining that Toby Fox as a creative is not an unchanging or predictable monlith. He can do anything he wants, and to imply anyone but his team and friends know his motives or creative inclinations beyond those we are presented as consumers of his work is inaccurate and I feel leads to a bit of flanderization or patronization of him as a person. We may enjoy his work and presence, but he is still a rather private individual, yknow?
100%! I think some people are tempted by a very calcified interpretation of Toby Fox. Some creatives certainly do have a "brand", but it's hard to pinpoint Toby's other than like, 'funny', 'meta', 'trickster'.
You've got yourself a sub, man. Notifications on, can't wait for your next vid! This is a really cool examination of suspension of disbelief vs narrative in Deltarune. I for one can suspend disbelief pretty damn easily, so it's never been an issue for me regardless. So glad to have you on the scene! And I'm with you, Jaru's rad.
Would definitely love to see more deltarune content from you!
Aw, thanks :) That would be fun. Just need to figure out what hasn't been scraped from the bottom of the barrel...
Wait how is this your first video? This is well edited, funny, and super deep! I hope to see more stuff like this!
Oh, my gosh. New theory channel that constructively discusses another theorist's theory without disrespecting them for the theory? Yes. Count me in!
No, but seriously, I'm in a ton of theory communities for different games and stuff and I never see people respectfully discuss another person's theories without just straight up calling the other person stupid. It's really discouraging for someone who wants to make theory videos but worries that their video will get laughed at if it doesn't perfectly align with canon. Like me, for example. Thanks for doing this the right way and helping to encourage constructive discussion in this theory community at least. :)
Thank you so much for making this video, it resonated really, really strongly with me. not only is it another theory that expands my view of my already favorite game ever, but, it really spoke out to everything that actually made it my favorite piece of art. You did such an amazing job, keep on rockin!
@@michaelsbasement Aw thanks, I'm really glad to hear that :)
When i saw this title and thumbnail I assumed it was yet another article of senseless cancel culture, and dismissed it out of hand.
Only when Andrew Cunningham recommended it did i give this video a chance.
I couldn't be happier that I did.
This is such a cool video!!! I absolutely love the last section!! And honestly after watching Jaru's video I also was disagreeing with his points ( love his content a lot tho), so seeing this video in my recommended made mw really excited. Like, hell yeah, a well articulated point that I was thinking about but couldn't phrase myself! That also creates a healthy discussion! Love to see it)) And after watching it, I found even more depth and interesting interpretation and commentary on the state of community in whole and our relationship with the game than I expected. Absolute respect, this video deserves so much love)
6:20 Y'all are thinking about this wrong. Deltarune's concept, characters, story, and especially ending, predates Undertale. Undertale is a sequel/parody of Deltarune. Deltarune is NOT like Undertale. Undertale IS like Deltarune.
We are working backwards, but are trying to work forward. We are in season 2 of Buffy, after exploring and discovering every single detail about Angel. We scream "They're using Cordelia and Angel!!! They showed Oz!!!" When these are the origins of them.
This doesn't usually happen, and if we ignore what Toby Fox says outside of the game, we have no evidence (yet) that it has. Concepts like Frisk, Chara, and Gaster might have come AFTER Deltarune's design. OR they might be Deltarune Easter eggs, like the (probably) picture of Kris, Susie, and Ralsei behind Sans' house on a specific FUN level.
Of course, because the ACTUAL game Deltarune is made AFTER Undertale, you can get back flow references, like Asgore's flowers (probably). BUT they cannot alter the main story, as it predates Undertale.
Toby Fox stated that Undertale was a proof of concept for Deltarune. This means there is valuable information in Undertale about Deltarune, but it is as a sequel/parody. Like drawing information about Buffy from Angel, there's a level of spoilers. Cordelia can't die because you know she goes to LA after highschool. You know when Angel shows up, because he announced it already, and you saw what happened when he came back. BUT Toby is cryptic, he's not gonna make those spoilers obvious, like a cartoon villian, he only leaves clues and calling cards. Until the hellmouth is opened and closed, Angel didn't give us enough information. You will never know that Felicia Day played a slayer by watching Angel.
Rewatching this again and the music piece that starts at 14:05 and continues throughout the rest of the section is genuinely beautiful. - Maybe it’s your awesome speech that electrifies it even more, but it might be the best rendition of the song I have ever heard.
I would implore you to upload it somewhere. Thank you for this video.
YOU AND I HAVE THE SAME FAN IN OUR ROOM!
Also, fantastic video.
I never really thought about how little we actually know about Toby Fox... Dude made one game and 2 mods... The latter being made long enough ago that we can't even consider it the works of the modern Toby Fox we know and obsess over, or can we? for all we know deltarune can have a tie in with the earthbound fanagmes, we just don't know enough about him to say for certain...
Take the earthbound tie in with a sea of salt, it's just an exaggeration.
@@SolesteamAlso toby felt embarassed about Earthbound Halloween Hack.
Here’s my crackpot hypothesis; Deltarune is a rite of passage or ritual, much like a certain abandon-ware from 1997. What Spamton saw in the shadow crystal was not just the sky & the sun, it was in fact, Popol Maya!
Love that. Please make a video about this, I'd consume it instantly
Okay p2 of the concept; What if the glowshards & shadow crystals are meant to connect together & form a single vision that reveals what each secret boss has lost, what you have lost, & what the characters have lost.
The true form of the prophecy, the tale of the serpent who’s body been torn into bands, seeking to reattach their pieces 1 by 1.
This was really cool!!!! Went in expecting yknow your usual analysis but came out with a pretty neat deep dive into theory crafting and belief suspension in general! Neat!!!
Thank you, appreciated :)
I think you're on point about the themes that the game is playing with. The idea of the meta-narrative and the regular narrative fighting, through the story's characters, over which gets to be in control and have freedom is very compelling. If the Weird Route shenanigans continue then I believe they're going to be focused on subverting the normal path in a variety of ways, rather than "merely" be about killing as much as possible or getting stronger stats.
That would be super interesting re: the weird route! I wonder what that would look like...
@@snarlinger Me too! I think we'll be seeing a lot more "But we were supposed to-" types of quotes from Ralsei.
13:14 THIS BIT FUCKING KILLED ME XD
Great job on the whole video BTW, dude! It's awesome 👌
Aw thanks, glad you enjoyed it :)
“I really love this content creator but they’re wrong on this.”
Better than most every fan ever
Also, I love Jaru’s theories… until the part where he talks about Deltarune like its just Undertale. I like Deltarune as Deltarune. I like Undertale as Undertale. He clearly has a preference towards Undertale. I don’t know how to say it I just don’t like it. A more… rude debunking theory words it better than I could. I don’t like how rude they are to his theory in the second half tho :p
Wonderful video, your editing and presentation were on point, i always love seeing new people stepping into the utdr theory ring
Super underrated channel. Also, Deltarune being the opposite Undertale makes sense, maybe the best or the good ending of the game will be the barrier the light world and dark world (and, at same time, the narrative and the meta-narrative) be preserved, the opposite of the barrier being broken in the pacifist route in Undertale
This is the best Deltarune theory video I have ever watched. Thank you so, so, SO much for making this. I really needed to hear your concluding words about the state of the fandom, yknow?
Deltarune has become such a huge part of my life.
I feel like Homestuck is absolutely required Toby fox reading
Let me tell you about Homestuck.....
@@snarlinger Yeah lmao, but also it has a lot of genuinely interesting examples relating to this discussion. Foremost being the expansion and contraction of the scope of the story and the 4th wall. Worm takes a lot of inspiration from a lot of different types of media and the way it pulls back the layers of each one is worth examining. It's a story book, an adventure game, a video game, a comic, anime, a quest, theater, chess and a bunch of other stuff. This let's it play with where the 4th wall is. Now examine Andre Hussie, the character. He's a part of both the narrative and meta narrative. There are cards which are both knives and cards, brawsuleums and decks. Basically Homestuck is genuinely an amazing tool to analyze delta rune. The survey program is sburb. No I'm not editing this
@@julianbello8376
You are telling me, that Deltarune is Toby's fanfiction AU of Homestuck?
Not in a million years
This video feels like a mystical experience
This a great first theory video. Please. Continue. Or should I say-
Proceed.
😵🌀💫
This was so fantastically done! You make your points so well and so gracefully. You had me engaged the whole time-subscribed before the halfway mark. I was so shocked to see this looks to be your first video! Really well done.
Aw thank you, I really appreciate that :)