Are Tanks Pushing Healers Out Of The Meta? | Honkai: Star Rail
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- Опубліковано 9 кві 2024
- Between the two sustain units, Tanks (Preservation) vs Healers (Abundance), in terms of defensive utility there seems to be more reasons to use shields over healing. With the release of Aventurine coming very soon, today we'll be discussing the problem with sustain units in Honkai: Star Rail, why tanks are outclassing healers in terms of survivability for the team.
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#HonkaiStarRail #Aventurine #HoyoCreators - Ігри
Welt sustain: I am the META that approaching
Enemies cant hurt you if there is never their turn.
I actually cleared the last 2 moc's with welt sustain, f2p btw.
@@imrannn06what was your team?
@@huateen2786 acheron, welt, Ruan and pela.
Is welt sustain possible without Ruan Mei? I’ve been trying to look for Welt sustain team but they all have Ruan Mei so it really feels like a Welt(needs Ruan Mei) sustain team.
This is a perfect example why March 7th is a pretty decent Preservation unit, the only way you can 'prevent' damage enemies is either out-damaging them, slowing/stunning/freezing them in place, or simply putting up a shield.
Considering March 7th's element and kit, she already has two of these stages covered, though she does have a cleanse, it requires you to burn through your skill point and even then it's more of a novelty that she has a cleanse in her base kit that can immediately remove pesky debuffs.
Having her at E6 even add the point of healing a certain amount of HP, while incredibly small on it's own, it just so happens that her whole kit is all about stalling for time, that's an even better note why she's made to be a solo sustain rather than pairing up with a healer because she has all of the bases covered.
Even damage is added into her kit through follow-up attacks, while pretty minuscule on it's own, it makes sure that even at the slightest moment that the enemy is free from stuns and rampaging through your party, you're still dealing damage no matter how small, again for a preservation unit, that's pretty neat.
Really, the only problematic thing about her is her incapability to bring out the shields much faster than either Gepard or Aventurine can, she's great for both playing it casually and building it all to defense or a more niche build like freeze-bot.
March 7th was carrying me untill this day. She is very useful to fight against Sam.
March is really good but they keep adding freeze res enemy😢
Wish she wasn't a Split scaling unit. Def shield, ATK DPS or Hitrate freeze....Just annoying that her stats get spread out.
She mostly pops off in Pure Fiction where there are always many targets to utilize her Freeze AOE E1.
Agree. March 7th is one of the units that needs skill to use.
@@JMike-bq6rlNever on God's green earth build attack on march, ignore everything on her kit that intends to deal damage. All you care about is speed, defense, and effect hit rate
The same argument as Shield Vs Healing in Genshin.
Both will be eventually patch out with new enemy or character.
Yeah... riftwolves and bond of life enemies making zhongli stocks down
Edit: though I guess he provides a lot more than just shielding with geo resonance, res shred, interruption resistance, energy with fav, geo shield breaking, some projectile blocking with his pillars... probably more
Thats true but likely not any time soon in 2.x because of aventurine
@@DefinitelyNotAFerretNone of those enemies you mentioned directly counter Zhongli shield, it’s the Black Serpents that makes bringing Zhongli an occasional burden, and even then there are ways to prevent them from gaining their shields while using him.
@@lehang5840 yet, he still one of the most used character in recent abysses alongside Neuv, Furina and Kazuha.
@@lehang5840 The current Abyss right now favors Zhongli because of 12-3-2 boss geo shield. That's something that Zhongli's hold E can shred.
And even then, he won't fall off any time soon when one of his popular pair is Neuvillette.
I feel like it’s way too early to have this discussion tbh, considering that there’s only two limited 5* characters of either archetype and we’re only in 2.0
It would be if power growth was slow.
@@MyVaniri mean the highest powercreep is coming from the DPS’s as far as I’ve seen. Afaik Sparkle pushed DHIL back to Jingliu’s level, but now Acheron is here threatening to push both of them down, meanwhile Erudition and Hunt are still fighting to stay relevant despite having strong units like Argenti, Topaz, Ratio and Jing Yuan.
Harmony is in a strange spot because unless the character is too niche or another character eventually does their thing better then no harmony unit will explicitly lose value
The sustainers all arguably have the least to worry about, both due to their limited option size and different approaches. Huohuo has big heals and buffs your team, Luocha does better at emergency healing through his passives. Fu Xuan may not actually make a shield, but negating some damage taken by your team while being self-sustaining is still very powerful and necessary in some cases, while Aventurine’s skill is the only real sustaining part of his kit (though it’s a dang strong skill). In some scenarios it’s better to have a shield (such as while fighting Aventurine or Sam), but sometimes it’s better to have healers (like fighting Kafka for example, especially since more healers than shielders have cleanse abilities). I really don’t think healers will go anywhere anytime soon. As the game gets harder, we need to be able to hit harder and tank harder, but whether the tanking comes from shields or heals all comes down to what direction the combat takes.
@@DG_TotiI mean both of these paths are going to be getting new meta lvl units I.E Boothill and …. If you want to know read below *Leak*
Jade
The problem is yes we are in 2.0 and we are ALREADY GETTING ONESHOT its not like The enemies will begin to deal less damage. A healer is better for lower level content where they can allow the team to go infinitely since the party wont get oneshot. But in harder stages a shielder is just better than a healer.
''I feel like it's too early to be discussing this''
Meanwhile me: *Looks at his 3.5k proper geared Imbibitor get 2 shot by 2 elite enemies attacking back to back*.
Are you even playing the game bro?
yeah because you get 1 shot in end game swarm and g&g not moc and pure fiction
Not really. If you're getting one shot by anything, your team is simply poorly built or severely underpowered for the content.
And even if the enemies are strong enough to 1 shot you, that probably means your shields wouldn't be strong enough to sustain you for a while either since any health you lose after your shields have run out is unrecoverable. I've run Luocha as a solo sustain ever since he came out, and any issues with survival he has isn't any worse than my Fu Xuan.
Not to mention that he can cleanse.
Yeah
@@kurimiaisukurimu what is this logic? If the enemy 1 shots your 3.5k HP DPS with like 4k damage ofc a shield or huge damage reduction would cause them to survive. Certain bosses like the meme are certainly capable of pretty much 1 shooting your lower HP units
Skill issue
@@kurimiaisukurimu This has been a problem since day one. Doing MoC with a healer sometimes turns into a gamble where one unit being attacked too many times can result in a reset. Preservation doesn't struggle with this.
The reason that I always run Fu Xuan is literally because that 75% damage reduction is just too good to pass on, it's just so reassuring that the only character that can be one shotted is Fu Xuan and to do it the enemy needs to do an attack that does 8k dmg to her or the enemy does an AoE attack that somehow does 30k dmg, it's just so rare that would happen
65% damage mitigation + 18% damage reduction on every teammate*
It's not 75% dmg reduction
🤓🤓@@NothingMeansNothingButNothing
@@OdysseyNaafiri ...Was that supposed to offend me? Are you still in 3rd grade? 💀
@@NothingMeansNothingButNothinglmao, brother doesn't know that being a nerd is cool nowadays
The one problem I have with shield is that the shield wears out quickly if the character has high spd or advance forward.
I have lost too many runs using Gepard bc I was using Jingliu and Bronya/Sparkle, and my Jingliu is my only character without a shield. But it is flawed in Gepard design. Hopefully, Aventurine don't have that problem.
@@fakezacker4107 Why would you even pair Gepard with JL anw?? We all know JL chipping allies HP. Aventurine will have the same problem, albeit it can be prolonged for a little longer because his shield is on his skill and not ultimate. Jingliu already bypass her own rotation, and you bring Bronya/Sparkle doubled it. That's not flawed in Gepard's design. That's just misunderstanding on how speed and the kits works.
Yeah can’t lie dog that’s kinda a badly thought out team comp
@nyx4074 What would you recommend for moc? I don't have 5 star abundance characters nor Fuxaun. I used Lynx with Blade team.
@@fakezacker4107How bout Gallagher? He's a good abundance unit. Although I'm not sure if he will fit as well with your units as with mine.
I haven't been able to pick qny healer back up after i got Fu Xuan. The difference is huge.
As for GnG or other SimU modes, preservation gives you shields multiple times the size of an hp bar while you can't heal a character beyond what their hp bar holds so abundance blessings often feel redundant.
The only problem with Fu Xuan is that she can't be on both teams at the same time
Hi, I'm a new player (just started last month). I have about 120 pulls saved and my next 5* is guaranteed. Should I pull aventurine or wait for Fu Xuan? I kind of want Fu Xuan instead. Thoughts? My current DPS is E0S1 Acheron.
@@danielweatherall3929 both?
@@danielweatherall3929 take the one you like more, otherwise you'll just get a burn out of the game
There will come a time when an Abundance character will have a kit that involves overhealing a character so much more than Bailu’s while also providing a buff for them.
i dunno im pretty sure they will add a mechanic that can bypass shields at some point
though i posted this before i even watched but yeah i will go for healers all the way
rifthound to HSR?
xD
something like true damage that can bypass sheilds
HSR have that already. Kinda. The one that has a Prana Siphon skill. Phantylia, and Sam too.
Damage overtime kinda already is that but like Shields aren't nearly as op in hsr as they were in genshin
Healing is often intertwined with cleanse, as often as I use master Fu for damage mitigation against one shots, I find it more comfortable to slot in Huohuo when enemies have high debuffing capabilities 👀
Same here. My only sustains are Huohuo and Luocha and their cleansing is really useful. It was really annoying though when the something unto death both was in MoC that one time and kept 1 shotting my Black swan from full health 😂
THANK YOU!!!! I was looking for someone mention that 🥲
essentially Huo Huo against Kafka
Fu Xuan against Svarog
I like the timing of this video, considering on the subreddit there was this little debacle where someone couldn't beat the Beetle because they brought Jingliu with Preservation Trailblazer as their only sustain...
Needless to say, but each has their purpose.
Really with fire blazer wasn't so shit, but boy can you not sustain very long with that little guy
trailblazer isn't good at sustaining anymore, the best thing they can do is act as a break dmg support
They're only good for "sustaining" in niche comps. Otherwise it's cope
Fire blazer is good at sustaning... themself, not the team.
He brought Jingliu and argenti with fire MC and was like Hoyo should nerf the bug 😂
It makes total sense that most of the content right now leans more towards shield units because Aventurine is about to come out so they want you to think that you need to pull for him. Just like how the content was leaning more into debuff cleansing when HuoHuo came out.
HSR, just like Genshin, tailors it's content to whoever characters are featured in it's banners. It's just much more apparent in HSR, since characters not only require the right element, but also the right path.
I won't be surprised if in the future they will release anti shield enemies just like the wolves in Genshin. And I bet you they will do that when there's a new healer that will release.
Yes can't wait for next healer, maybe some day will get enemies that can oneshot you even with shields, so future healers that can revive endessly will get a lot of value, having technically infinite sustain
@@asoret A healer with infinite revives would literally break the game
leaks are already showing that a boss is going to need shield to survive some attacks so they're trying to weed out healers for now.
@@softjytsu I think the boss also gives you shield when you keep breaking his bars, but yeah healers should give some damage mitigation, max hp or something in order to not get oneshot and be able to heal
yeah its why theyre pushing the break meta so far and i personally HATE the break meta. especially as a new player
You forgot one thing luocha can do, his ult can remove all buffs on enemies so its useful for taking down specific enemies like the abundance enemies that respawn and heal as well as the fat ipc guy (i forgot its name) who buffs itself if you don't kill the adds
Thats so rare right now, and even then pela that is much more played in this time can do it too
6:36 the mc clip was genius honestly.
For Every Team I make in either Genshin or HSR, I always have a healer, regardless what team I make.
Same. I also for some reason refuse to use a shielder
I do the same in the overworld for convenience, and for harder content like moc (I'm not far enough for abyss in genshin), a tank alone is usually enough to solo sustain
In su swarm/g&g, fx is pretty much the only solo sustain when going a dps path unless you have a ton of action advance, since enemies do so much damage they burst through even gepard's shields, and from what I have seen from g&g c12 gameplay, usually fu xuan dies but then you nuke the boss so you still win
Same same i keep the class themes through out my teams and just swapp out the characters unless theres a gimmick i wanna run like
All dot that team has a hard time fitting healer
@@MaidEmily I just play march 7th with fu xuan when doing really hard simulated universe, shielding fu xuan and freezing helps a lot with her survival
For me, it's mainly because I absolutely hate seeing my party's HP bars not being full.
Honestly for Star Rail (unlike Genshin), I barely acknowledge healing vs. Shields. All of the limited 5* and new 4* have additional utility on top of their sustain and I look at that before considering if it’s shields or heals. They all carve out different niches which is the more important factor for me.
Team is SP hungry? Bring Luocha. Team is SP hungry or is focusing on break damage? Gallagher. Need crit stats or ailment prevention? Fu Xuan. Crit stats and follow-up synergy? Aventurine. Attack buffs, mega cleanses, or energy? Huohuo. AoE Cleanse or aggro manipulation, OR you need an easier to obtain healer? Lynx.
They’re honestly all so different and, among the 5* especially, have competitive sustain that the sustain itself is a bit of a wash except for the 4* who just have a higher team investment requirement to solo sustain.
Exactly. The sustains have many roles than just sustaining that you can't pick one purely because it's shield/mitigation/heals
Based way of thinking that I think I will adapt to
And then there’s natasha… you didn’t have any other healer on hand
This, everyone should look at this instead of arguing over what's gonna be changed with new enemies anyway. Look at the additional values first after you're done building your characters to a serviceable level. If they don't provide much extra, then create those. I sure as shit would put broken keel and trend lc on my gepard and sacrifice 1k defense on him (4.1k to 3.1k) if that means he can help my acheron. Same case with luocha basically, even better in fact as luocha has a 4 star lc that literally scales with effect res (for anyone who doesn't know it yet: the perfect timing lc at s5 will out heal his sig 5* lc once you get his eff res to 60% and use outgoing healing body), I also got lucky with his e1 in his first banner so bro is literally a pseudo harmony. Huo huo aside from her busted kit can also help buffing black swan with penacony set.
@@dan_chen thanks for the luocha tip ima keep this in mind 👍
At this point it's basically depends on taste. Different enemies also a factor whether you should bring a shield or heals. You know they would make an enemy that bypasses shields, like how Sam counter healers (some can still clear with healers though).
Gallagher isnt affected by sam which is funny
Isn't Sam counters shielding because every time you use your skill you lose hp?
Gallagher and Huohuo can basically ignore Sam's mechanics, Bailu too
It's really just Lynx and Nat struggling more against him, dunno about Luocha.
Also Sam hard counters Fu Xuan too
@@fuyukiryujin3723 Gallagher mechanically ignores Sam, his healing is applied from his debuff so it doesnt get nerfed by sam, Sam only nerfs character from character healing
@@Shon_- i know, I've used Gallagher against Sam. That wasn't the point of my comment though.
You can just run Outgoing Healing bonus to counter it with most healers, I've also used Huohuo and Bailu and they had no issue against him.
They just outheal most of the mechanic anyway.
Nat and Lynx struggle more because their healing is a lot less potent, but I'm sure you can do it with them too (just less effortlessly)
Speaking of... one of the things I want to see in a future sustain character is a DoT based Healer. Like, the more DoT debuffs the enemy has, the more they can heal.
It may not be exactly the best, but there's a SU blessing like this one. I've always thought that the SU blessings seem to mirror some of the characters' base kits, so there's that...
That’s somewhat niche but unique
healer Dr Ratio XD
In hsr sustain is very important, but the prblem with healers, except luocha, is that when something can blast through your shield faster than you can prop it back up, it's generally faster than you can heal. Luocha is the only one i've found who can keep up with passive sustain at endgame damage levels, both huo huo and bailu are good for active healing, but their on damage healing is too weak. Luocha can still allow remedial sustain fast enough with his field and the auto heal such that as long as your characters can survive they'll be able to heal back, but the other healers aren't at that level yet. On the other hand, with shielders, you aren't taking any damage to necessitate healing, and if you are, it would probabky wipe you out before you got healing if you used a healer instead because non-tank chars don't generally stack health.
If you look at fu xuan, you still need healing elements because your characters still take a percentage of damage, but for other shielders you just ignore damage as long as the shield is up.
Personally for me it's luocha on top, then shielders then other healers.
Issue is there isn't any content where enemies can one shot you, unless you're severely undergeared/playing wrong somehow.
The only places where that can happen is GnG, but you have so many inflated stats and so many different ways to tackle the run that it's genuinely a non-issue.
I've been using Huohuo and Bailu for GnG, MoC and PF. Recently Gallagher too.
And it was never an issue as long as you know which blessings to take and how to play them.
fu xuan heals your characters with lightcone and ult so it should be a non-issue
@@Fr00stee Yes she heals but Signature lightcone's shouldn't be brought in when discussing base kits
@@Thunderdroceon base kit includes a small heal to all characters whenever fu xuan uses ult, this should be enough to offset any dmg they have sustained through a fight
luocha is the worst out the current limited sustainers. not because he's bad it's just sustaining is all he really excels at, fu xuan gives cr buff and cc resist, huohuo gives the best buffs out the sustainers, and aventuine is the best at sustaining with debuffs, and synergies with acheron and fua. the only thing luocha had over the others was being super sp postive but like aventurine can do the same and sparkle exists now
I don't think so. Hoyo will create problems to sell solutions, and so both Preservation and Abundance won't fall obsolete nor will they just carry every content in the game. If they release a healer, they might introduce enemies who are able to damage through shield and vice versa, like Sam who reduces healing massively, encouraging players to play with shielders instead.
2 years later: the rise of healing supports
Bold of you to assume healers aren't used on SU 💀
@@noelrakman9641you could always revive in a respite domain
@@noelrakman9641 if you are new sure, but would be weird to not use aventurine or fu xuan if you have them instead of that
@@asoretUse Fu Xuan in g&g and watch get obliterated 😂😂 she good but when there too much aoe that aint for her there a reason people run her witch gepard or huo huo
@@Shiraion I know I just play her with march 7th + freeze and goes perfect
Funnily enough, bailu somehow plays both roles of a preservation and a healer. She has damage reduction for all of her teammates with her A6 on top of her invigoration allowing face tanking heavy atks. That dmg reduction really helps me on many plays I have with Swarm and GnG. It is just a bummer that she doesn't have any means to cleanse anyone
Imagine she had cleanse, bailu supremacy
If bailu could clense what position would u put her on tier list?@meliodad2422
Just a lightcone who can give her cleanse can change everything. If it released in any upcoming future patch, bailu will revive from the grave.
I mean the only times I REALLY needed a shielder was for Swarm and GE difficulty V when I had to use Gepard. Other than that I've been doing MoC just fine with Huohuo on one side and Bailu at the other. Maybe they could take a page or two from Epic Seven by making a healer that reduces AoE damage and has reactive healing when the team suffers from said AoE damage. A lot of possibilities here
I've been managing fine regardless of whether my sustain is Fu Xuan or Luocha. Aventurine will be my first shield unit when he's out next week, so I'll see how that works out.
It just depends on the enemies. Who know they will add an enemy which can just ignore shields , then healers will obviously be better
For a game like this it’s inevitable for them to add this mechanic. Question is when are they gonna get it
Yes, thank u Gepard for been my first ssr, love u so much
I got 3 of his lightcones, but he himself refuses to come to my account
This mf forced me to get his LC 4 fricking times before come to me
Geppy my beloved
i personaly still prefer abundence over preservation but i notice somethin in star rail, at the start abundence and hunt were the most "important" path, the it was destruction, then erudition and harmony and now we are going for preservation and nihility , at the star for suport it was better abundence and harmony and now is going for nihility and preservation
I don't think so, at the start abundance and hunt were "the most important" because most people were abusing seele and we had to use natasha or bailu to survive if not wanting to cope with fire mc, which only lets you live for some turns, then we got good destruction dps getting hunt ones (seele) worse and worse with they releasing double boss content, erudition got pure fiction, its not like they are broken anywhere, and nihility was always op since kafka, just needed more members, preservation finally got 5 star limited units outclassing healers and harmony always too strong.
Im not sure what are they going to do to make healers important again maybe having a new one that doesn't have a limit to resurrect the team and reducing a little the damage received while buffing and/or doing some damage, but maybe is too broken
I feel like abundance characters decreasing in value would only for a short time especially with how much star rail changes its metas. Just like how people went from using Jingliu constantly to not as many people using her currently, a simple change in enemy mechanic or enemy weakness typing easily changes teams and character choices.
I personally have a huge fondness for Gallagher as a healer, especially on teams with a lot of Blast and AOE. To me, he's Clara's second dad, the one who gives her soda to make her feel better while Svarog is busy taking revenge on everyone who hurt her.
Classic Hoyo, pushes shields right now, especially with Sam boss fight being extremly annoying for healers, just so they can make an enemy that ignores shields and deals true damage few patches later. If you want to get ahead of Hoyo powercreep get both good *healer* and good *tank* .
Gallagher not caring about Sam debuff lol
@@asorethuo huo and Gallagher just eats Sam up tbh. Idk why people are scared of the powercreep when you have two units already that can just mitigate a whole ass mechanic
@@austinadvincula4410 People who are scared of powercreep played Honkai 3rd, where every single new character power creeps a previous one, I don't really care personally. Just here to kill time untill Wuwa releases.
I think the other super important thing to not is crowd control, being imprisoned or entangled will delay ur action and even if a healer can cleanse the debuff they don’t restore the action order so it can really mess up your rotations. Having a unit like fuxuan or aventurine to resist those debuffs is a saving grace
I think this is a case were units having hybridized toolkits and the further exploration of the different team archetypes can help the Abundance units. While this also works in favor of the Preservation (ex. Aventurine taking advantage of Follow-Up Attacks), I think having more Abundance characters that dip into other path specializations and mechanics would be a good idea. If there's more Abundance units like Gallagher with debuffs, that would benefit a units like Acheron and Dr. Ratio. Units that want to get hit like Blade can use mitigation and heals, but don't want shields. So hopefully those differences will help Abundance keep pace with Preservation.
I like the Abundance Dewdrops in Simulated Universe, so I do think effects that can convert overhealing or provide additional offensive or defensive benefits when healing could go a long way.
Getting one shotted in SU hurts
You just feel all the effort vanish
Me playing Swarm Disaster in dificult IV and V, I have to play preservation and Fire MC to stay alive, and the extra money to full My team with Blessings.
Fr tho, i was struggling so much to clear Swarm Disaster V some days ago, i had to build Tingyun to run alongside with Gepard + Preservation path to defeat the swarm
@@axelleenan3801 now I have gallager and Acheron, atleast the runs are not long with her and her mob instakill, I hate te Crowd Control resistance of those things, sometimes the game tells me FUCK YOU and one shoots my Acheron and my Welt :C
my gepard is too slow and my Kafka is too fast, so my Kafka almost never have her shield
Kafka definitely prefer Huohuo as her teammate.
Dont run gepard on no spd he needs to have enough speed to atleast go 2 turns per cycle since he needs that extra energy to consistently ult without it your team explodes
@@zerovking7629 I currently use Bailu and before I had Acheron I used Gepard with Natasha. I just cant get the right relics for my characters
My 121 speed ER rope gepard: my shield is ready whenever you need it.
@@anwarshadaad1553 Kafka easily can reach 161 speed with her lc tho. That's the issue
12:30 with the debuff meta hsr is going into, i’d really like to see if hoyo would make a sustain outside of preservation and abundance by reducing enemy atk
this would sorta be like fu xuan where each hit doesn’t hurt as much but it applies debuffs and everything
I doubt this will happen but it’s a funny concept
Gallaghar already reduces enemy attack through his enhanced basic, waiting for a debuff 5* sustain based on similar design
one thing people dont mention huohuo vs luocha is that luocha is SP + while huohuo is SP neutral. still like huohuo more for the ER tho.
Huohuo can be played as SP positive without any issue
@@fuyukiryujin3723depends on enemy. Some you can be others not so much.
@@oscara8454 true, but generally never had much issue running her SP positive because her skill heals for a big chunk too
@@fuyukiryujin3723 that is true, but then you will have less frequent Burst for the ER buff
From my very own personal experience i need to say kinda, although it actually depends on the contents that im doing. My Gepard sustained through the last stages of the Xianzhou's Navis Astrager better than my Luocha and Bailu, but i use Luocha more on a daily basis since how comfortable he is. I guess it boils down to the fact that a shielder can prevent you from being one shotted while a healer can't, but the moment a character gets to low hp and having no shield to protect them a healer would seems more pleasing to have and use. I always used a character that provides shield in other games than those who heals you, like genshin where i pair my Eula with Layla. At the end of the day it comes to our preferences and needs on which one is more needed and better to use for something. Honestly i enjoy shield more but putting Luocha and Gepard together to brute force Swarm Disaster and Gold and Gears is very fun so just use what you enjoy the most
Lol Huo Huo is the best of them all
There is a rumor that March 7th will be getting a 5 star version sometime in the future so it’s possible that she could be a power creep to all Sustain in a similar way to Imbibitor Lunae Dan Heng was for DPS at the time. What I could see them doing for 5 Star March 7th is make it so that she has an ult that heals the whole party and any overflow healing is converted into a shield or something like with some extra effects so that excess healing doesn’t feel like a waste.
Very good idea.
Please mail this to ho yo, they are out of ideas that's why they holding Sunday for now.
what my luocha mainly does most of the time is buff shredding the enemies with his ult with some emergency healing on top
I think you’re correct. Thankfully I have Gepard for cases where I need massive damage mitigation.
The other way healing could win over shields -- and I'm surprised this idea wasn't mentioned -- is if they changed the format we are fighting in
As mentioned in the video, the reason preservation is currently winning over abundance because the end game focuses on beating enemies in as few cycles as possible. This means both that the enemies always have to be threatening to one shot you to be challenging, and that fights never take long enough for the benefits of healing to show
All it would take is a new game mode with more focus on longer battles to flip this dynamic on it's head. Similar to how Pure Fiction was able play to the strengths of erudition units, a game mode focused on longer more grindy games would be able to exemplify preservation characters' inability to reverse any damage that slips through the shields, and would make abundance characters' potential to sustain indefinitely a necessity.
I think we might see new relics (oof for hunting) that give abundance some new flexibility, some in mind might be:
• Gives energy regen or supporty effect based on how much they healed allies (could also buff blade, arlan, and potentially Sam this way)
• Gives a buff or stack based on instances of receiving damage (promotes that ebb and flow for HP management)
• Gives a new type of buff based on overheal. Temporary max hp? Action forward? Damage reflection based on temp hp lost?
I think berserker Destruction + Abundance pairing has a lot of potential with the right guidance.
I also think more “Hunt” like enemies can exist. Higher speed, and maybe even ones that have up to half their damage bypass shield on a marked target.
I can also see more challenges that are less about clearing asap, with other kinds of objectives like survival.
Like damn I just want natasha and bailu to regain some relevance
I like Bailu to the point I include her with every team comp. The lack of cleanse makes her somewhat irrelevant when all damm 4 star abundance have a cleanse hell even march 7th a preservation have cleanse.
@@MrNoUMr Yeah to save Bailu you really need an lc, relic or something that gives cleanse, but true maybe healers are made for more natural tanky teams, with the new break meta and destruction probably Sam, it could get more viable, gallagher kinda wants that, a tanky team that doesn't blow up with most hit to have time to heal them and increase the break damage
We're just not having the right contents.if they ever cook up a boss that deals %health dmg or shield penetration ,def ignore,... Then healers will rise again.but right now we got sam who reduces healing,bosses that oneshots your dps.all having good matchup against healers
i feel what made healing just way better in genshin is mainly bcs u can just dodge and with the release of furina someone whos buffs were locked behind healing, so for hsr to do something similar i feel like they would need to release more characters like blade who dont want shields and then someone similar to furina in which buffs are locked behind healing.
Damn come to think of it, my main teams 1) Mono quantum has Fu in place of a healer, and 2) my Destruction team has Lynx but often times in MoC ill leave lynx out in favor for a buffer because Gepard's sheilds are usually enough to keep everyone alive even with Jinglu's team health drain lol.
because MOST char other than abundance have low health, preservation is much better for the team rather than healer even if we exclude the utility(fx give crit rate, aven give inc crit damage taken, hh give energy regen, etc) that abundance and preservation char give to the team other than sustaining. if we got more high hp char and dps like blade, i think abundance will shine too
100%. Abundance really needs high HP teammates. You can't do much to help your squishy Hunt units after they get ganged up or oneshot
my fu xuan and huo huo can comfortably carry my teams from getting one shotted for now, i think. will still try and go for aventurine since i think variation of sustain is nice and they all have something different to offer
Fu xuan has just carried me through so much though I still appreciate healers like lynx and gallagher with their cleanse abilities which fu xuan cannot do
yeah, I always hated healers.
The only two sustains I have for now are Fuxuan and Lynx, I could have gotten a 5 star healer but I never trusted them to keep my team alive so I waited until a second 5 star preservation was released.
I'll be getting Aventurine when he comes out now.
There is a character that increases hp already named lynx for the reason of making said character get targeted more problem is its so tiny and she only heals 1 person per skill while all on burst
I was starting to think of this but this mindset only applies in endgame SU. Gepard also is kinda falling behind compared to Fu and Aven that can tank CC debuffs.
If they add a HSR character with a Baizhu kind of kit they would be probably be so broken but they probably wouldn't have much offensive supporting capability or personal dmg
Some way that I can think of to make healing more viable is to make it act like the 3* abundance SU blessing or Bailu LC, converting heals into damage.
Shields can also do the same of course by converting shield value into damage. But with shields, taking damage will reduce your shield, hence less damage, unlike heals that are consistent in number (assuming overheals still count)
Yeah that could solve one of the main problems, that when your team is full hp tanks can build up a strong shield to prepare for the damage, while healers nothing, just give some buffs or stay watching waiting for the time (that if x person in the team doesn't get oneshoted, the main problem)
But with break meta incoming that is like elemental mastery in genshin maybe we get more tanky teams with destruction dps, probably Sam being great with gallagher
Easiest is to add content with enemies that ignore%, remove or quickly break shields. Or add various penalties and debuffs for tanks or all units even, which only removable by healer cleanse. For future healers the overheal mechanics are a must, along with offensive buffs. Also they can use something like purgatory from WoW where if you fatally hit you dont die instantly but have a short window of time to be healed up othewise you die.
Also probably healers and tanks will be merged into one category as 'sustain'.
I thought the same, maybe an unavoidable debuff/attack that if you don't heal that bar at time it just explodes and you loose that hp or just an endless dot that can't get resisted just cleanse
They're going to add more dot mechanics, that bypass shields or reduction effects, forcing people to use/get healers or they're going to make the next abundance character's heals give you dmg reduction or shields..
Yo random question. Is Gepard powercrept now? Like he can't tank against late game content.
I feel like they addressed this with Huo Huo by giving her harmony like buffs on top of healing. Also relic sets like the healing one and planar sets that increase crit damage for having effect res. Energy and attack increase on top of the best cleanse and heals.
I mean what you said, preservation characters have it too, well not cleanse, but they get a lot of effect res or avoiding debuffs, fu xuan and aventurine are kinda harmony too, with some damage now
If you look at a game like FGO that is turn based they will likely do something similar just have skills that allow you to pierce shields or enemy gimmicks that interact with them. They have already made the monkey that hurts itself when you have a shield, there will probably be a more opposite enemy in the future if they feel shields are a problem
The OHKO or even when just 2 enemy(ies) hits focus on one character is really frustrating! And it’s not hard to happen I will say. That’s why I will be pulling for Huohuo E2 when possible so I don’t depend in THIS rng since there’s too much of it already lol
But one thing Abundances still have better than Preservations (to this date) is cleansing
I'm just waiting for the herta abundance light cone, hopefully it just says something like "when your ult heals you cleanse as well" then bailou would probably have a really good standing amongst healers
Thing is, we already have an example of another avenue for pure healers can take to match shielders: max health buffs. Lynx does that as part of her skill. The concept is already in the game, they just need to give it to someone who can do it better and more easily.
i wonder if theyll create some enemy move type or status effect that ignores shields, like a sort of poison or something, i dont see why dots dont already ignore shields but thats just IMO
theyll have to make sure they're not heavy handed in using it otherwise it will make use of a shield pointless as a result
Welt Yang: It's all part of my plan!
Fall in love with Fu Xuan , start saving since 1.0
get her at E1S1
never leave my party ever since
I'm a little torn. I've got Acheron, Clara, and the F2P Ratio, but no Topaz. But on the other hand, I got Kafka and Black Swan. I'm not sure whether I should go for Aventurine, or wait for Huohuo's rerun? Should I wait for a solo sustain that can DoT in the future?
It also doesn't help that there area plethora of blessings and curios in SU that can also heal the party but not nearly as much shielding, making tanks the preferable choice in combination with those blessings even more.
A way to make healers more relevant is to have them give a portion of their defense/effect res on heals to the target, let's say 25%.
Well gallagher does that already with E2, but don't think is that important when healers have the cleanses, thats more for tanks stacking effect res, they should make like fontaine in genshin where they started transforming overheals into a damage buff or something useful, right now healing when the team is 100% is kinda useless, while shielding characters can get shields and prepare easily for incoming nukes
They are pretty good. But since i have huo huo with her Lc i really feel that pulling for that was a game changer for my account. But, i still need another 5* sustain for for the second team, and i think i will go for fu xuan
I think it really depends on units rather than their path alone. My first limited 5-star unit is Luocha, and aside from specific scenarios that require shields, so far he's the only sustain I need. The reason I prefer him over anyone else is because he is skill positive. I have been using him for so long that I've mastered the art of sustaining without ever using a skill point on Luocha. Gepard on the other hand, even with ER rope, there are times when the uptime of his shield cannot catch up with stronger bosses. After seeing Aventurine's kit, I think he doesn't have any uptime problem, which proves my point that it's all on the unit's kit and not necessarily their path.
I have Fu Xuan and she really carried me for the sustain role.
And I'm thinking to get Huohuo next for my 2nd limited sustain, is she still good? Since she's a healer and not shielder. 🤔
at the end game like in gold and gears you can heal if every hit just one shots you. so you need a shield if you are think in surviving.
i hope it doesnt stay a problem cuz i only have gepard and i love bailu sm😭 i also dont plan on going for fu xuan in upcoming patches so i gotta make do with my gepard n ghallager (also luocha)
I mean if they release an enemy that deals more damage against shields but less damage if there is no shield :shrug:?
You raise some good points, but failed to account for how madly in love I am with Huohuo
The only time it matters is in Swarm and GnG. You shouldn't be getting one shot in MoC. If you are it's a sign your characters need more relic investment.
As well I still don't entirely know why Luocha is being so written off. Pure sp positivity does matter. There are a lot of teams where you just want to always depend on your support gaining sp. The others have to spend it at some point. Aventurine might be fully sp positive, at the least on FuA teams, but that'd have to be seen in practice. My Huohuo is e0 and while she's technically more powerful, it's a bit messy to the point that I only use her on my dot team vs Luocha, Fu Xuan, and Gepard who are all much more sp positive.
I think the notion of sp economy somewhat vanished with sparkle lol
@@VarsII For now we only have one Sparkle and two teams. And well people might want a second Sparkle in the future for reasons I heard in a dream.
@@EimiShahrizai we have bronya for that
@@EimiShahrizai future break team actually drain sp like crazy, they don't need atk% or cr% either
@@MikoWhackingEi Well a second Sparkle in terms of sp gen, as Bronya does the opposite of that, even at e1. It feels like I'm always reduced to gambling on that 50/50 of hers.
In the simulated universe the favor also heavily leans on towards shielding, allowing more survivability than healing due to the absurd damage dealt by the enemy causing them to one shot allies that you can't heal
It doesn't matter eventually, with star rails light cone system preservation 5 stars will likely need their signature light cone to do their job
and you think they will just leave 5 star abundance characters not needing them?
Personally i can't live without a healer. It's stupid, i know, but i just don't feel safe when my hp bar reduces and i can't get it back up 😓
A possible change they could add to abundance units to make them on par with preservation units if they start to fall off massively is give them some kind of overheal ability. In essence, if the amount of health healed is over the amount needed to fully restore, you could either transfer the remaining overheal to another adjacent unit (useful for abundance units that only heal one at a time) or you convert the extra recovery into temporary max health (essential raising a unit's max HP during battle temporarily).
This is just an idea to throw out there but to be honest I don't think this will be the direction abundance units will take in the future. It's still too early to tell.
Second one is there already . Bailu does that. She does increase HP temporarily.
Something like overheal gives sheild will be meta defining
I just got Aventurine and he's my first limited sustain. Should I aim for Fu Xuan or wait for limited healer?
I don't want to go into leaks territory, but you're mostly right. Future healers will also provide more utility that is designed to work in different teams, same as HuoHuo supporting teams that need atk and ults, future healers sill support hypercarry and fua comps more closely.
which leaks? I don't remember seeing any leak about healers, just remember some phoenix one that could revive a lot, hope its real eventually
Eh I have one or the other on my team and I am usually fine, I am just going based on who I actually want to pull rather then meta or characters the majority think is good. I am playing the way I want to play
To me I love the preservation units rather than the abundance ones due to the fact that they make my team feel less squishy. I remember hearing this being discussed, that preservation is good for more short term fights (damage mitigation) and abundance is better for more long term ones (healing/recovery).
And there is me bring both Gallagher + FX everytime I do gng high conundrum /SD 😅 My FX just keep getting 1 tap by boss I need to secure every revive blessing for the final boss.
They just need to add more characters like Blade and Jingliu who uses hp for damage.. thats the whope reason healers became good under Furina.. because Furina uses the team hp, regardless of who is on field or not..
At the moment we only have two 5-Star Shielders (Fire Traiblazer doesn't count, his shields are made of paper and he's more focused on Taunt) so there's no way to say for sure.
As soon as they started to release more Shilders options we will be able to form a more solid opinion
Well there's no use of healing if your characters just got one shot lol
Probably because they are running nothing but low defense.
@@NodokenStar-k917 well as a DPS you would obviously prioritise damage duh
if you're getting one shot, you're doing something wrong to begin with. Maybe level up and build your characters more?
There's nothing in MoC/PF that can one shot you and GnG/Swarm can be cheesed through with lots of different effects and inflated stata
People really get 1 shot by enemies ???
Maybe rebuild you characters...
This reminded me FF14 discussion I had with FC (guild) members. I asked if they prefer to raid with Shield+Regen Healer or double of one of them. And most people agreed that most stable clears usually happen when there are 2 Shield healers in party. This mostly boiled down to: While Regen healers kit built around healing, usually simple fact of good rotation of damage mitigation plus shields often left party with enough HP they wont even need additional healing (also, Shield healers also have regen skills, tho they are limited by cooldowns).
And going back to HSR, usually I play Pres+Abu in SU simply for sake of autoplay while I watch some videos or read something, but recently, when I decided to go for max clear of MoC I met sad truth that Luocha+Clara, while still potent combo, don't provide as much sustain as I'd like to. Because, unlike early stages of HSR these days every second non-elite mobster have some form of AoE or Cleave. Another problem is that a lot of buff/debuff units scale of multiple stats (obv, you'd like they to act as much as possible for extra SP regen, but there are also ATK scale, EHR for debuffs etc), which tends to leave them relatively squishy (I once had my fully built TY oneshot from full by alchemist bitch's aoe).
So, yeah. At this point of the game premitigating damage is way better than healing it (unless you fight something like Sam, who goes around Shields and redirection) and I think Mihoyo get a lot of value out of Aventurine banner (judging by lack of news on preservation 4* in near future).
fellow ffxiv player
Honestly, considering how much the opposite it felt like at the start, the shift to tanks as meta has been quite a crazy journey
Tbh since you cant dodge in this game, dmg mitigation > emergency heals. This is very clear in swarm disaster as im struggling without fu xuan. Whilst healer kits tend to cleanse which is useful, it simply cant compete with dmg mitigation. Tanks also tend to provide effect res which is more effective in the long run than cleansing.
Funnily enough, bailu is the only healer with some dmg mitigation in her kit and can compete more with tanks than luocha imo
Damn, I always wanted Fu Xuan with her LC. 😔👉👈
Going to use her and Gepard both on SD: G&G.
Only problem: I am not guaranteed on both LC and Character Banner. 🙂
The big difference between Abundance and Preservation that I have noticed when it comes to fights is that
preservation units can't handle extended drawn out fights but will usually survive a stray nuke
abundance characters can't handle extrememely high damage numbers but will outlast any enemy that deals only decent damage (and is over-reliant on non cc debuffs)
basically preservation will allow you to take a random 6k attack but will fall under consistant 3k attacks while abundance will fall under random 6k attacks while consistant 3k attacks are no problem.
also preservation units enjoy fast fights while abundance units like low damage numbers
i would say preservation is better than abundance atleast for right now because because you dont get oneshot easily and for the case of endgame content (swarm and G&G) people say conundrum 12 fu xuan will get oneshot by aoe nuke to this i would say both yes and no, because the thing is if you're really underpowered you're not supposed to beat con 12 unless if you're using the capitalism strat, but for those that have built there team enough there is a buff that you always need to bring one of them is the destruction/erudition that save you from dying this is crucial for fu xuan another crucial buff that you need is all the gold blessing of destruction this is tankyness and finally 2 buff from abundance the one that shares healing and one that give extra heal when you get healed this abundance makes your fu xuan a abundance/preservation
and for shielder there is 4 buff that i would get that is the stackable shield, while having you take reduce damage, and extra shield gain, def% buff for how many preserv blesssing you have + fighting spirit
i really hate the state of preservation vs abundance because of the fact they work similarly, to sustain the team one way or another
I hope preservation goes to a similar route like fire TB with taunts ( maybe an all aoe taunt or jump in front of allies when being targetted) . Might do the same thing essentially but helps build the idea that preservation isnt jz abundance but replace heals with shield.
Then at least building hp/defence feels natural because the preservation is expected to get hit alot instead of having shields that scale with def just because
I mean what you said of aoe taunt and jump in front of allies is kinda what fu xuan does already, and even if playing a healer you want them to be tanky too and resistant to debuffs, you don't want your survival unit to get stunned or killed and loose, and tanks have to shield you can't remove that from everyone, is what they represent in simulated universe (ironically fu xuan can't use preservation blessings effectively)
@@asoret Agree with the first part where fuxuan is definitely step in the right direction what it means to be a preservation . But for the 2nd part there should be a drawback of running healer like how other turn based rpg have a clear distinction healer vs tanks. Tanks take damage and aggros enemy. Healers want to sit back and heal but are prone to being soft and silenced/cced. Of course with the addition of relics you are able to swap outgoing healing with hp/def % but that should give a drawback with less healing just like how speed and energy recharge is basically removing 1 main stat for utility
This just my two cents , i understand some people prefer to have all roles consolidated/crossover to have a more balance lineup but for me it makes the role of abundance and preservation essentially meaningless.
Here's my predictions for future abundance and preservation
Abundance chars will either increade team's hp and add dmg reduction on top (ik it's literally what part of Fu Xuan's kit does) or add "damage caps" like each enemy attack can only deal 50% of allies max hp
Preservation could prioritise the character itself for tanking while lowering if not negatinf the teams damage taken (basically fire mc but better)
The last thing you said is kinda fu xuan already too, indirectly is like she has permanent taunt, with advantage of letting the team get hits to get energy, and the disadvantage of getting debuffs sometimes where you don't want to
That damage cap thing seems too broken, but idk maybe finally having a healer that can revive allies without a limit, just once per battle doesn't help always
i replaced my healer in my simulated universe team with gepard for the 3x farming; and I felt so empowered.
i normally have bailu incase I fuck up and someone dies but I decided to put all my faith in shields and I ran a train on cocolia
I think on your point of a healer needing to over heal, I can see that happening. Unicorn Overlord has a class that can overheal 50% over the hero's max HP, but even outside of that there could be an abundance character that turns over heal into shields, effectively giving us a abundance/preservation the same way we see Fu Xuan as preservation/harmony or Seele as a hunt/erudition
one thing with realise of rift wolfs , this way they nerfed shields so after that people realized how important healers are (and most of them skipped kokomi durning 2.1) so my thinking process is that maybe in future content they might add some enemies that bypass shields who knows
The difference is that you can dodge attacks in genshin. Is Star Tail, when an enemy attacks, you take damage. That's it. If you don't have a healer or shielder, there's that much if your bar docked.
In my experience, I tend provide healing for Erudition and destruction characters. Sometimes Hunt too, but I like giving them and Nihility characters shields because of how the base stats and priorities end up. Hunt and Nihility always want to die to a strong gust of wind 💀
Unironically, they'd probably have to make a Harmony character who buffs the party based on HP changes, similar to Furina in Genshin.
With how fast clears can be ever since Acheron's release, the only way I can think of to justify healing over shielding is if the healing will amount to any amount of dmg bonus. That's why Huohuo is favoured on top of Luocha, or really any healer; she brings more buffs other than healing.
Edit: A little off-topic, but adding onto that, that would probably help bring Blade back to relevance too, as well as buffing older characters like Clara even more.