Anti-Israeli Protests, Palestinian Genocide, Noam's biases - Elizabeth Spiers (Gets a bit heated)
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Writer (NY Times, Salon, Fortune, Gawker, Slate) Elizabeth Spiers joins the Table to discuss her columns on student protests & social media. The conversation veers off into a debate on whether Israel is committing genocide.
Columns mentioned:
www.nytimes.co...
www.nytimes.co...
This is an absolute masterclass in gaslighting.
Exactly!!
From the Zionist pervs or from the woman?
Her mind is a fortress. Let no new perspective breach her defenses.
Perfect statement
This lady goes through logical fallacies like it's a checklist
Funny... just wrote this myself. I should have first read through the comments section.
A self-proclaimed "empiricist" who disregards objective data sets as unrepresentative while projecting her own dogmatic experience as the incontestable truth.
Unfortunately she's doing it unconsciously. Not confident it stops until this is buried in failure and discreditdation. I admire the intelligence, but it's a shame it's wasted on this BS, when it could be genuinely productively employed.
By now... Mirroring a variant of Cultural Revolution mindsets should be just too embarrassing.🫣
Wow! Congratulations! I didn’t think it would be possible to find a worse faith, mentally ill guest than Dr Finkelstein but you did it!
It’s so scary that she is in a position of influence with such low ability to understand arguments or data.
Then on top of that she’s rude and racist to Noam. It’s ok to not know something but lashing out with insults instead of clarifying is just despicable.
Why can't I give this comment a double like? UA-cam, get on it.
This was unlistenable. She was intellectually dishonest, moved the goalposts, engaged in motte and bailey. I now know that if I see this name in the future, I know to disregard her.
Noam literally makes a false analogy likening a Palestinian protest for protesting against black people, not even a black country but black people.
That's clearly not true
“I’m an empiricist.”
“I trust my own lived experience over the broader data set.”
“FIRE is corrupt”.
Just a few of the greatest hits from this shit show.
This person is a journalist🤦♂️
Spiers: "Everyone i disagree with is corrupted by bias, but i remain completely objective, rational"
To be fair, Zionists are entirely irrational and dedicated to spreading untruths.
Thank you Noam for giving her the space to let us hear her out fully. What an invaluable service.
I love you guys. But I'm so sorry I spent an hour listening to this.
She is the queen of gaslighting
Wow
You Zionists shouldn't accuse other of gaslighting.
"I'm an arguer, this is the kind of stuff I enjoy." Huh. She throws anecdotes into the air like they are valid debate strategies and is argumentative just for the sake of it like a child who is driven by ego of being 'right' rather than inspiring thought. The fact that she TEACHES AT COLLEGES explains some of how misinformed the students are. Her biases are clear as day and, ironically, she is projecting that onto Noam and not recognizing when it arises in her. Also, a very childish debater, lacking the complexity of thought, debate, and public speaking skills.
Who are you to say that she's unqualified to teach? She debating a rabid Zionist propagandist who doesn't let her finish a single sentence. You think that's easy?
This lady talks out both sides of her mouth. And very rude to the Host.
The Zionist host doesn't let her finish a single standard.
It feels like she is just disagreeing with every point because she has labeled Noam as an ideological enemy. Just a thoroughly unimpressive individual.
I mean, he continually interrupts her to disagree, like the early thing about abortion (which he then cuts off to say "let's not get side-tracked" despite initiating the tangent). To be clear I don't have a problem with interruptions in human conversation (I'm Jewish!), but I don't think it's only her doing that.
@@philoshua He surely interrupted too much, but she didn't say a single thing of substance
What are you talking about, he doesn't let her finish a single sentence.
@@house684 he does. and often it's quite obvious where she's trying to go with it even without her finishing. when Noam talks about something bad in a uni like colombia and she starts bringing up bad practices in universities in red states, it's quite obvious that she's engaging in whatabooutism. there isn't a need to let her talk for 5 more minutes as she attempts to justify a logical fallacy.
If there's no "platonic" protester, how the f**k do you know what the protest is for, and then, what is the point of the protest if nobody knows what its for?
"that's what people are upset about" 55:30
nah - they're upset because this is being presented to them as something they're supposed to be upset about. 1000 Hajjis died today due to heat at Mecca and it's shrugged off by officials. No one cares. Civil wars in Ethiopia, Yemen, Sudan, Syria, etc. No one cares. "But my tax dollars aren't going to those conflicts!" I've never been uniquely upset at something with my tax dollars being the tipping point. People care because there are certain people that have a vested interest in these people caring.
None of those conflicts or tragedies could drag us into a world war or even nuclear war...
@@lawrencekagan8688 wtf does that have to do with anything? have you heard any protestor saying they are protesting because they fear a world war?
lol "I am an empiricist" wow I feel like I am dumber for listening to this lady
Her double standards about everything are astounding
Double standard about what? She says that Israel does genocide and that genocide is bad, and that college students should be allowed to protest that genocide. There's not double standard there.
She said it "looks like" genocide. Which is hardly evidence @house684
Sick women,
Gebels would be proud of you!!!
It's ironic that she brought up "cognitive biases," when nearly every response was a showcase of biases, logical fallacies, and assumptions without merit. She should be studied in a lab. Not only does she lack critical thinking skills, but the cognitive dissonance and use of mental gymnastics to explain away her anti-Israel beliefs amounts to gaslighting. If she was just some dumb college kid, I wouldn't even bother to comment here... but this is a person who writes for influential publications that impact public perception. Pisses me off to no end.
I tried to listen but 20 minutes in, I decided life is too short to waste another second.
But you had time to leave a snarky comment?
@@mannyshouse3708 what's 10 more seconds to express you're frustrated you just wasted 20 minutes listening to someone who refuses to ackowledge ANY faults just because it's from her side of the political spectrum.
An analogy that you might get, from my perspective
There's literally no difference between her behavior and trump apologists that refuse to acknowledge any of his faults. both are a waste of fucking oxygen.
People are so thoroughly uneducated on what warfare entails particularly in an urban setting against a non-uniformed opponent. The idea that she feels qualified to not only endorse (at least partially) claims of genocide but to influence readers on the topic when she's not willing to tangle with alternate means of defeating Hamas is what's wrong with so called journalists of today.
After being boxed in she finally said "Israel could use special forces", presumably she means specialized ground forces without the attack helicopters, tanks, tactical bombers, or other assets with high destructive potential. What she doesn't include in this is the fact that Israel would sustain massive casualties of its bravest citizens in order to protect the civilians who elected, support, and sustain Hamas.
True, not all Palestinians support Hamas to this extent, some Palestinians don't support Hamas at all... but at what percentage of support/non-support would it be reasonable to conclude Hamas' hold on power to be sustainable/unsustainable?
The left wants it both ways... they seem content ignoring the level of Hamas support among Palestinians while implying every civilian death is an innocent life lost.
Noam: This woman was insufferable. You always do a good job. Can you, however, ditch the t-shirts. You are a man of a certain age, discuss the most serious topics, you are a father, and you would look good in a white or blue oxford shirt. You look young for your age and can still pull off this look but imo, it's time to spruce up.
Keep up the good work.
You're right
What an unpleasant person.
Shes conpletely out over her skies. Makes Mehdi Hassan loon like Stephen A Douglas
25 - 30 years ago I was listening to a talk show host complain that when he wanted to talk politics, his rolodex for conservatives was only a few people becuase if they were available, they were an automatic yes..never even asked what the subject was. Liberals on the other hand were impossible to get on. They wanted a list of questions ahead of time..wanted the ability to disalow certain questions, etc. It was impossible to book them. 25-30 years later, and nothings changed.
How does she make Norman Finkelstein sound credible, sane and reasonable, something I didn't think is possible. She doesn't realise she disproves everything she claims with her own words
Her own side will tell her she did ok. The manner of which she lectures people as not having sufficient information yet display an astonishing level of evidence. She should not be teaching and I would advise not attending courses she teaches as she is an activist not a teacher
I'm always astounded about the inability of Pro-Palestinians to concede anything
Holy hell, this woman is an educator???
i share most people's frustrations with this guest. i will say that i was impressed that she didn't storm off, which is not a high standard, but i really enjoyed watching someone who was clearly (wrongly) fed up with Noam stay sitting and continue arguing
She is right there is no problem at the Universities everything is perfect.🙄
33:19
Since Noam is so eager to have “the other side on” why not invite @RabbiYaakov on to discuss if anti-Zionism is antisemitism? Of course, Rabbi Shapiro will likely argue that it’s Zionism that’s anti-Jewish. Could the table handle that level of heterodoxy?
All the standard talking points and absolutely no substance, i say this will disagreeing with Noam on many points.
This woman has to be among the most dishonest people I’ve ever heard speak publicly. She could not have done a worse job arguing her point and representing her side. I am so embarrassed for her.
I really appreciate the comedy cellar inviting guests that are not in line with my opinions, i like feeling challenged on my views. I understand it might be combattive or difficult, but do go on ❤
Noam clearly belittles the intellectual capacity of his employees, and when they ask a guest something his face changes.
I think I'm just gonna re-listen to this instead of doing cardio.
I will criticize Noam for interrupting as I feel Elizabeth found it extremely difficult to make a point but I also heard almost no coherent points from Elizabeth when she was able to complete her thoughts. She seems to have done nothing but dodge the questions or change the subject and make her own points off topic.
80 minutes and she didnt engage with anything you said, impressive!
its impressive how much this guy talks for knowing so little. its like he brought on this guest just to talk to himself for an hour, i dont think she talked for more than 30 seconds at the longest without getting interrupted
As someone who actually lives in Israel, all I can say is that it's scary how uninformed she is on what's going on.
I'm not a Netanyahu voter (far from it, 'מרצ' voter, a "far left" party, some might say, or just "left" the others), but she is just wrong. Netanyahu is the elected prime minister by the majority of citizens. While there are some protest (far from 40% which would represent 3.5 million protesters - crazy number) they are around a few thousand of participants. There is a public sentiment against Netanyahu and a lot of voices are heard for early election, as in any democratic country and as expected from the opposition side of the political map. But he's definitely represent the majority of the public in the sentiment for the justification and the necessity of the war. The argument of the protesters is for his responsibility regarding the oct.7th events which he refused to accept so far, and the hostage family members protest in hope for their safe return as fast as possible. But, the overwhelming majority of the public does agree with the war and the decisions to pursue its goals. Also, saying that there're some groups of officers in the IDF plotting how to kill as many innocent Palestinians is preposterous and simply disgusting accusation. It doesn't matter whether I believe the morality of this war, but every citizen here can say proudly it's not happening. Because those officers are in fact by a large number are reserve forces, so most of the citizens here are aware of how the army conducts itself in combat.
This should be a career ending performance for this guest. To think that she teaches at NYU. WOW.
"There is no example of people supporting college protests"
So what ? There is also no example of people supporting dedication in public
This conversation is hurting my brain. They talk over themselves, don’t listen to each other and just all over the place yet nowhere at once. lol
Such a sick lough this woman has.
Elizabeth Spiers arguments are logical and very intelligently presented because of depth knowledge of facts based on first hand experiences.
She is what's wrong with the educational systems.
Wow. She points to counter protesters in her attempt to examplify how the protesters have a "wide range of opinions".
You had norm Finkelstein who is definitely a progressive.
nowadays, ppl who identify as progressives generally aren't. see: briahna no rape joy gray.
Finkelstein is a propagandist getting funds from Qatar.
Listening to her was frustrating because Noam didn’t let her answer. And he kept twisting the narrative and sleeping topics to suit his beliefs rather than listen fully to hers. So it goes in circles.
Noam is wrong about many things including the statistics about gaza. Intent has been proven which is why there is a case at the ICJ.
Stopped in the middle, couldn't keep watching her
Such a bad faith interview. She pretended to hold positions she clearly doesn’t. Say it with your chest, don’t be dishonest about your positions.
The gentleman was patient, reasoned, classy, and poised. The woman made some good points but ultimately interrupted and derailed the conversation over & over again.
I never heard of this woman but it stuns me that she ever got past a job interview and received a job offer. She's beyond awful. And her statement that Israel may be committing a genocide according to the Geneva Conventions is absolute nonsense.
I think Noam could have been less aggressive
🙄
I don’t know how he stopped himself from calling her a f%#king idiot. He should learn from Sam Harris and recognize there is no point in debating with a person who just spews absurdity after absurdity. You’ll waste all your time chasing down absurdities.
"and Dave Smith has a lot of followers".....
Dave's not here, man....Dave got hit by a bus.....
Then the bus backed up and ran over him again. 😂
The bus was Andrew Wilson.
My 20-year-old self blushed from thousands of miles and decades away for calling myself a libertarian.
Dave's on the smart team 🤓
Discussion with ES brings you no closer to truth or understanding. Teaches you only what you already knew - some people aren't capable of reasoned discussion.
Oy.... clearly she's been educated at the finest institutions.
My extended family and I were playing with water blasters in our pool. One side was Hamas and the other was the IDF. We were making cliche, sarcastic jokes and laughing because as Irish-Americans this is how we deal with terrible world events. There was a point I announced that I was using my 8 year old autistic nephew as a human shield. My brother didn't try to shoot [even though this would have been true to acting] because it would have been wrong even though I was wrong to place myself behind him in the first place. Two immoral acts can occur at the same time; this is not a hard concept to follow. Israel does not have a moral army, and this is clear in their actions regardless if they are committing a genocide or not. The evidence we do have - they don't give a shit about murdering/displacing/imprisoning/torturing innocent people during this "war" because they have been doing all the above for years. Our next war game will be the six day war, I will be manning a floaty in the deep end named the USS Liberty.
I used to believe all that. I was unknowingly captured by Marxist propaganda. During that time, I protested for innocent Palestinians. I even wrote a letter in my own name to the FBI or DHS on behalf of an Imam who had been unfairly targeted. I said that he had made amends for previous hostile terrorist rhetoric.
I learned later that he boasted that he used interfaith relations with Christian ministers and rabbis as a cover for his continued H4m4s activities. He was deported to the West Bank, briefly interrogated by Israel, then set free.
Water blasters isn't the same as when an enemy is trying to totally annihilate you and your people and the innocent civilians actively engage in combat operations.
The British created a Palestinian Arab state in 1921, and offered to create a second Palestinian Arab state in 1936.
The response was the violent Arab Revolt, 1936-38. (This was not the first, but it was huge. Wkipd list a few previous massacres going back to 1920, but it was pretty much ongoing intermittent conflicts for decades even back into the 1800s.)
United Nations offered to create a Palestinian state in 1947. The response then was months of fedayeen violence, 2500 losses of J civilians, followed by a full-scale war by combined Arab Nations.
After they failed to annihilate Js, which they call The Nakba or Disaster, and the 1951 Khartoum resolution of the Arab League was No No No NEVER to peace.
This has been a continuous War since long before 1936, when Js were fewer in number and not strong enough to repel attacks. According to a Syrian historian, 1938 was the first year of credible J self-defense.
There have been lulls for periods but NEVER a peace treaty and final agreement to establish their own (2nd) state.
The H4m4s Charter contains zero mentions of establishing an independent state, for their own freedom, Sharia or otherwise.
What plans does the West have to rescue 2 million Arab Israeli citizens who are de facto zionists, before H4m4s slaughters them all as "apostates", for being friendly neighbors with Js and for living their lives as normal citizens under the government of Israel?
They DID also end some Muslim lives in the October invasion.
Keep doing your Great Work guys 🙏
Thank god for this Lady. I have turned off so many of this dudes 'discussions' because he thinks steamrolling his guests is engaging in debate.
This joke of a person got dog walked. He is so harmful to the discourse with his disingenuous slogan ranting
ES understands genocide as destruction of property. What word would she use to describe the murder of an entire people?
Where have you seen that?
Stumbling into this comments page feels creepily like taking the wrong door and happening across a retirement home for rusted on socially conservative Republicans.
Grumpy, intransigently anti-youth mumblings.
Spiers said she is interested in a different angle.
Then lets consider the hostilities Israel faces as not only coming out of the Gazan territory . But also consider the total array of Gazan allies in other lands and territories
such as Hezbollah in Lebanon,
Iranians , Houthis in Yemen who in aggregate make up a front line military force and territorial area much larger than Israel.
So the destruction in Gaza can be viewed as a only very small fraction of the total assets and and territories that remain overwhelmingly intact and immediately surrounding and hostile to Israel.
If one block is destroyed out of a million other blocks the destruction of the single block is not genocide .
Noam seems to be right that there is no genocide because if Gazans changed their own behavior by releasing hostages and laying down their weapons , then all hostilities would cease. While in an actual genocide of the Tustis and Jews no change of behavior would have caused the Hutus and Nazis to cease fire and stop the destruction of the victim population because the victims were of a race the murderers targeted for destruction. While in Israel 2 million Arabs live and take part in the national life.Two Arabs are Justices on Israel’s Supreme Court. Thousands of businesses are owned by Arabs . 47% of Israeli pharmacists are Arabs . 20% of the parliament are Arab ministers someday an Arab may become prime minister.
Support Israel and you support a hope of Arabs and Jews thriving living together support current Palestinian aspirations and you support the destruction of Israel
will affect Palestine adversely because it is the one neighbor of Palestine that would partner with Palestinians to improve the entire region
The Zionists can't let her finish a single sentence.
seriously. she made her points very clear and explained why it's might be considered genocide and he is just lyign and lying and lying... evil
@@DixieFaukner I don't know her, but I really like how she represents herself here. But they're constantly interrupting her, they doon't allow her to complete the argument.
@@house684 timecode please? Also, do you notice her interrupting as well? It's called a conversation.
@@comedycellarclips at 16:22, the Zionist host finishes his minute-long argument, without interruption. The guest then starts replying and already 15 seconds in he cuts her off and starts talking about his Zionist viewpoint. She isn't allowed to finish her argument. He does this constantly later on in the discussion when the subject drifts to Israel specifically.
She reasons like a child.
I love you, Noam!
Why?
This lady is one of the most dishonest people I’ve listened to in a while.
11:58 "Let's not get sidetracked" Let the guests talk?
This process of interrupting not for clarification but just to prevent someone from finishing a point is maddening.
It's arguing to obscure and undermine, not to clarify and support better understanding.
It's the difference between approaching arguing as almost purely a battle tactic and arguing as significantly a search process.
Timecode?
How can you pivot this much
A) This was a difficult listen
B) You are doing yeoman's work in interviews like this.
C) I sincerely hope she sends you the list of Progressives Who Are Obviously Willing To Talk and you are able to host every last one.
1:03:00 this chick exposes herself
I've got 47 minutes to go. I was about to turn it off. I'll stick it out.
Baruch hashem I'm only 3 minutes away
This is indeed sick... And later her inversion of Sinwar's statements
@DebateSlug-tm3pm "should logicaly be interpreted." Is where you made your mistake.
I took it to mean that she thought the premise was naive. Simply because children are dead doesn't mean they were "targeted."
You wouldn't say that they "targeted the cat" in the building when they bombed the building with rocket launchers and a cat in it.
The problem is that you assumed that your interpretation MUST be the correct one and that you were willing to exclude any other explanation even when there is a realistic, alternate and obvious answer.
Transcribed (I need to get this out of my system):
Noam: "I saw the Hamas Footage. Fighters gleefully throwing hand-grenades into rooms of children and cheering about it with rapture"
Guest: *Chuckling* "You think there are no videos like that of IDF soldiers?"
Noam: "If there are, the difference is I will make no excuses for them as people make excuses for Hamas, even to say that. Why are you both-sidings that?"
Guest: I'm not. I'm saying. Evidence. Either you believe children should not be targets" *Chuckle*
Do you think she is a child molester? I'm *just asking* because I think children should be protected. *Chuckle*
Why doesn't Noam get Dave Smith on? It'd be interesting to have a libertarian perspective that disagrees on Israel-Palestine. Also Sam Seder is always up for a debate too. These are two people in comedy that would be entertaining and disagree with Noam.
ua-cam.com/video/F1GkOhvscVY/v-deo.html
condescending laughter isn't a very persuasive method of debate.
Before oct 7th i considered myself progressive. If i ever sounded anything close to this i apologize to everyone i know. And it sucks because my kid is trans and these are the people i have to rely on to protect my family.
About time someone told Noam to stop interrupting. Good on her 👏🏽
Do you notice how many different times she interrupted me and I didn't complain?
Insufferable
Try getting Max Blumemthal on. I cant see him being intimidated.
These people are just annoying...
every activist says 'special forces.' How would special forces wipe out all of this infrastructure? And this guy overlooked that
It’s an absurd response. 🤦🏻♀️ No serious warfare expert or military member considers it an option.
@@joge2468 yeah you say it better
@@rossgoldman8264 Here’s what people who make this claim are really saying: “I don’t care how many Israeli soldiers die, so long as no Palestinian civilians die.”
Yikes. I watched this interview twice and this woman’s sophistry, intonations, and awkward laughs all indicate that she’s either wildly ignorant about these topics…or is intentionally dishonest.
she says most palestinians don't want Hamas in charge. Not so sure about that
I’m only 10 minutes in but I can tell I’m in for a wild ride of BS coming from this woman.
how many straws can you grasp for in an hour and twenty minutes.
oi
1:21:03 Dan Naturman sums it up perfectly (and hilariously)
Hillel, Shammai, meet Korach
I think an idea after Oct 7 might've been for Israel, rather than invading Gaza, to install 100ft LED screens on all the walls surrounding it, with 100ft speakers to match, and played the 47minute video Hamas recorded of themselves on the day on repeat without breaks for 8 months straight..
This was difficult to get through. She is dense
this comment section is a hug box
Amazing guest ,under attack
Big fan of the show, and I didn’t care for this woman either. But just to level the playing field here I’ll say that I recently purchased Dan’s book and I’m not too crazy about it. I don’t know if it’s that the characters don’t jump out at me or seem believable, or if it’s the style of writing, or what.
At any rate, this is (still), since 10/7, the best show on the Arab-Zionist conflict, and it’s because of the open mindedness of Noam, Dan, and Periel.
God bless. And no disrespect, Dan.
Like with BJG... The current issue is putting an extremely hard commitment to the lawyerly style of battle under scrutiny.
This is the "pound the table" style of argument... used when other approaches aren't clearly available to or well known by the advocate.
It's among the reasons arguing gets such an ugly reputation as super unpleasant.
Bring Sam Seder on..
🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Referencing amelech in regards to Hamas while at the same time saying a large portion of the civilian population is or is collaborating with Hamas, shows intent. The pausing or halting of aid also shows intent. The continuous war crimes without any accountability shows intent. The lack of a day after plan shows intent. The multitude of statements from political officials show intent. The use of military ordnance larger then 500lbs in urban areas shows intent. The minimal effort to warn civilians shows intent.
A.) Now is a good time to check in with PCPSR. Their new polling data was just released. 66% support 10/07. 61% would like Hamas to retain power after the war. 75% are “satisfied” with Hamas’s performance during the war. B.) It’s also a good time to check in with the UN on the charges of famine. From the FRC: “The FRC does not find the FEWS NET analysis plausible given the uncertainty and lack of convergence of the supporting evidence employed in the analysis. Therefore, the FRC is unable to make a determination as to whether or not famine thresholds have been passed during April.” Likewise, I recommend the analysis produced by two Columbia professors that shows 3000 calories/day/person have been entering Gaza since January. Likewise, I again recommend the PCPSR poll in which 75% of Gazans say food aid distribution has been “discriminatory,” ie Hamas is stealing it. C.) What war crimes? D.) Net has been up front that he imagines a government comprised of local tribal leaders over seen by a coalition of ME and Western governments. E.) Neither Gvir nor Smotrich are part of the war cabinet. Their extremist views are supported by 13% of the population AT MOST. They are routinely chastised by other government officials. F. & G.) I recommend the interview of John Spencer by Sam Harris for a comprehensive understanding of urban warfare and the measures Israel has taken to avoid civilian casualties.
Much of the civilian population does support Hamas - but that doesn't mean they facilitated Hamas activities. Amalek is the traditional term for the enemy of the Jewish people - you simply don'y know anything about how that term is used in Jewish circles. That law requiring genocide is directed at a particular group and requires a prophetic identification - that is not what the Israelis are referring to. There is no evidence of aid not getting in because of Israelis - in fact the evidence clearly shows that the aid got in but couldn't be distributed because of Hamas and the condition of war. There is no evidence of war crimes going unpunished - although obviously some are being committed without consequences - since anything that has been substantively proven has been responded to by the IDF. There are no statements by anyone in power - the war cabinet - taht reflects intent. And essentially everything brought by South Africa was either taken out of context and referring to Hamas or said by someone with no political power. The bombs are perfectly consistent with the war aims of destorying Hamas tunnels. And there has been a ridiculous amount of warning - from delays for weeks before the war and the delays before Raffa - and calls etc etc. That last point is ridiculous - as is your political outlook.
@@Y.DovWeissman open your eyes. The US said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. There are always excuses during wartime that so easily crumble afterwards.
@@koralreefs2598 You can spin any narrative about any war when you don't appeal to actual evidence. The fact remains that the Israeli war is the response to a massacre carried out against its civilian population and the need to neutralize that threat for the sake of the security of its citizens. There is no structural account of this war that would inidcate genocidal intent - which is why you have to provide some powerful evidence that can demonstrate that - which you haven't. And no Western country would give up towns or cities for the sake of your 'moral' concerns. Hamas does not get immunity nor will it be tolerated on Israel's borders. The Palestinian collective faces the consequences of their own political culture, and until they replace it, their society will suffer.
@@Y.DovWeissman I think I stated evidence clearly. I think you have your evidence and it’s pretty convincing. The truth is we live in different worlds with different facts. I just hope you wake up to some of mine. Your points are convincing believe me, but to me mine are better.
If i'm honest, she made more sense in most of the points...Noam made 2 good points. Great video, keep it up.
Is that a tattooed line on her arm? I’m so confused…
And dear god, he’s not really talking over you. It’s called a conversation
Invite Sam Seder
She was humorless from the moment of the introduction. Impossible to watch beyond a few minutes.
"cartoony"...He's literally talking about what happens at protests.
She also doesnt understand proportionality militarily, either, which most of these idiots also don't understand. She also doesnt understand what happens in war.
She talks about an empirical basis to her thoughts but doesn't cite credible data particularly from military experts.